Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epigenetic Inheritance: Can Evolution Adapt?

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Given how routinely evolution fails to explain biology, it is remarkable that scientists still believe in the nineteenth century idea. One of the many problems areas is adaptation. Evolution holds that populations adapt to environmental pressures via the natural selection of blind variations. If more fur is needed, and some individuals accidentally are endowed with mutations that confer a thicker coat of fur, then those individuals will have greater survival and reproduction rates. The thicker fur mutation will then become common in the population.

This is the evolutionary notion of change. It is not what we find in biology. Under the hood, biology reveals far more complex and intelligent mechanisms for change, collectively referred to as epigenetic inheritance. You can read more about the challenge that this form of inheritance poses for evolution here. The take home message is that adaptation is routinely found to be not blind, but rather responsive to environmental pressures. The fur becomes thicker not by accident, but via cellular mechanisms responding to a need.

There is still much to learn about this phenomenal built-in adaptation capability, but it now is clear, and has been for many years, that epigenetic inheritance is a dramatic departure from evolutionary expectations. Indeed, this sort of adaptation is closer to the ideas of the long disgraced French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829). Lamarck’s idea was that offspring inherit traits or characteristics that were acquired by the parents. Although epigenetic inheritance is far more complex than anything Lamarck imagined, he was remarkably close to what is now being discovered. You can see a recent review of what has been learned here. Only a few years ago positive references to Lamarck drew heated response. Such ideas were not tolerated. Now his name appears regularly in the epigenetics literature.

This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least.

Continue reading here.

Comments
Re #148 Do I take it you have given up trying to provide positive evidence for ID?Mark Frank
June 14, 2009
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Mark Frank: ID examines the cause of a phenomenon, not the mechanism, just as one can examine the effects of gravity without knowing how it operates. RM+NS offers a mechanism that cannot function without a cause, and yet by definition cannot have one. To be honest, any conversation that begins with the premise that life arose and adapted accidentally cannot proceed logically. It's already driven off the cliff. I can't argue against a contrived fantasy.ScottAndrews
June 14, 2009
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Joseph, those links just go to your blog, where you provide some quotations from textbooks comparing biological processes to sports cars. that is not evidence for anything.Khan
June 14, 2009
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Joe says:
In comment 73 I have provided links to evidence for ID.
No, you haven't.Alan Fox
June 14, 2009
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OK Alan, Khan and Mark Frank, Here's the challenge. In comment 73 I have provided links to evidence for ID. If you don’t think that is evidence for ID then please provide the evidence that would demonstrate unguided processes can produce such a thing. Those things exist and there are only two possibilities- designed or not- so have at it or admit that you don't have anything.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Alan Fox, It is obvious that the ONLY evidence you and your ilk will accept for ID is a meeting with the designer(s). IOW you ain't intereted in science. You may know how to spell it (science) but that is about all. Ya see proof-reading, error-correction both require knowledge of what is supposed to be. And there isn't any evidence that unguided processes can produce such a thing. We have plenty of evidence of agencies producing it. Therefor the design inference rules until someone can scientifically demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce it. You say that you don't have a position yet your posts prove that you are lying when you make that claim.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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David Kellogg:
ID just points to really complex things and says that intelligence is the answer.
Add ID to the vast list of things Kellogg is ignorant of. It isn't mere complexity that drives the design inference. I have been telling you that for the past year and you choose to ignore it. And in the end to refute the design inference all YOU have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for it- IOW support YOUR position. All you and your ilk can do is say "No one has shown us the designer therefor it evolved via unguided processes".Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Re #127 ScottAndrews As I said I am not going to reiterate the arguments about the evidence for RM+NS. The point is that they are all part of a detailed discussion of RM+NS - looking at how it might work and its consequences. Where is the equivalent discussion of ID? You are not going to produce it are you? All you can manage is: "There has never been observed or documented any source of complex, specified, information other than intelligent agents anywhere. Intelligence is the only known, documented cause. Feel free to elaborate on how wrong you think that is. But it’s the best explanation available." As I said "complex specified information" is another term for "very unlikely assuming RM+NS". So to claim that life includes CSI is simply to attack RM+NS. It is not positive evidence for ID. You can see this most clearly if you imagine that it is shown to your satisfaction RM+NS does account for life. Then you have no reason left for believing in ID. Your problem is that it is not possible to have positive evidence without saying something about the nature of the designer. A designer of unspecified power and motives can explain everything; and nothing can count as evidence against it or for it. You invite me to elaborate on how wrong the ID explanation is. I can't begin because there is no content to criticise. In one thing you are absolutely right. If you feel that RM+NS is not a satisfactory explanation for life then the logical conclusion is - we don't how it arose.Mark Frank
June 13, 2009
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David Kellogg @138: Your argument fails to invalidate the logic of the design inference. If intelligence is not the only cause of complex, specified information then why has no other ever been observed or documented? I'm not pointing to some mysterious unknown force, you are.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Khan @137, In terms of matter or form, I honestly have no idea.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Dark matter has been posited from a number of observations. There are models of how much dark matter Should exist. Experimental efforts to observe dark matter directly are ongoing; some have claimed success but others are skeptical. By contrast, this "intelligence" is not measurable and no attempts are made to observe it directly. ID just points to really complex things and says that intelligence is the answer.David Kellogg
June 13, 2009
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Scott, I recognize this is going nowhere, but what is your vision of the designer? dark matter physicists at least put forward a physically plausible hypothesis. what is yours?Khan
June 13, 2009
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Khan @138: Now we're somewhere between straw man and argument from incredulity territory. If you truly believe that random chance is a better explanation for apparent design than intelligence, then you have already chosen the mathematically impossible over the reasonable. Evidence no longer has meaning. Believe according to your preference.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Scott, first,intelligence and matter are two entirely different things. intelligence on its own is not capable of anything. it needs to be able to physically make things. so we are left with two possibilities. the first is a supernatural being. the existence of this being would call into question everything we know about well, everything in science. the second is space aliens. in the absence of any physical evidence, I am not convinced that they exist. maybe you are. but I would like to see some some rigorous, quantitative evidence of not only intelligence but also the means to physically carry out intelligent acts. by contrast, dark matter fits in well with what we know of the universe and is supported by multiple consilient lines of evidence. so really there is no comparison.Khan
June 13, 2009
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Khan @133: Consider dark matter. We know only one thing about it. It has the mass. No one has seen it or knows much else about it. Perhaps not everyone agrees it. But would you rule it out on the basis that no one knows anything about any such matter? The evidence indicates intelligence. We can say, "But what intelligence? Let's learn more," or we can say, "That's ridiculous, I'm limited to explanations that include what I already know, with the sole exception of natural processes that behave intelligently but aren't intelligent." How is random chance that behaves intelligently a better explanation than unknown intelligence?ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Scott,
This is an interesting rule you’ve formulated - an inference may only lead us to what we already know. Not a very useful tool, is it?
you misunderstood me. we know there are many planets and moons because we have seen many. in a specific case, we can safely infer that a planet exists in a particular spot because we know there are many planets. this is a very useful inference. we are not inferring that there are many planets bc there are many planets. by contrast, we do not know that there are many sources of intelligence. do you see the difference?Khan
June 13, 2009
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Khan @131: Correct. We have no reason to believe such intelligence exists, except for the evidence that it does. This is an interesting rule you've formulated - an inference may only lead us to what we already know. Not a very useful tool, is it? If we disregard the evidence of the only rational theory available, the alternative is to admit that we just don't know. I'll choose that over science fiction any day.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Scott, we know that many moons and planets exist because we have seen them and know their effects on gravitational pull. so we can infer their presence. we do not know of any intelligent agents besides ourselves (and some other animals) and we can not travel back in time. so your analogy doesn't work.Khan
June 13, 2009
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Khan @128: The intelligence has not been observed, but can be inferred. When a planetary body moves in a manner consistent with an unknown gravitational force, we infer a moon or another planet. Or if we are philosophically opposed to moons we could say, that's stupid, we don't see a moon so that can't be it. It's an inference based on evidence. The alternative is a grab bag of natural forces, some real, some hypothetical, all of which trace back to random chance. It's not a rational explanation.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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kairosfocus says:
Onlookers: We should remember that UD is currently experiencing a wave of Darwinist advocates pumping out their rhetorical talking points.
This is followed by 477 words largely recycled from previous posts. Sadly, as usual. Who, exactly, is "pumping out their rhetorical talking points"?David Kellogg
June 13, 2009
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Scott,
There has never been observed or documented any source of complex, specified, information other than intelligent agents anywhere.
However, there has never been observed or documented any source of intelligent agency other than the ones we have on earth. nor have there been observed or documented any cases of time travel where in humans could have invented the genetic code, etc. so that kind of "evidence" works both ways.Khan
June 13, 2009
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Mark Frank:
1) Microevolution. The process of RM+NS has been observed to produce small changes in the genotype and phenotype over small periods of time - both in the lab and the in the field. While this does not conclusively prove macroevolution it is evidence for it.
Evolution from a bacteria to the same type of bacteria. To call it evidence of macroevolution is a wish. And after the thread in epigenetic inheritance, how can you even claim to know which mechanism caused the changes? Maybe it was different one. Maybe random guessing and selection will produce the right answer.
2) NS+artificial selection. This analogous process has produced rather larger changes in genotype and phenotype over longer periods.
Intelligence required. Dogs to dogs. This would solve the problem if all life on earth were dogs.
3) Computer simulations. While these do not simulate all aspects of RM+NS they do show how surprising complexity can arise from a simple process of mutation and selection over a long period of time.
Requires intelligence. Changes shapes of antennas. Doesn't invent antennas or receivers or transmitters. Varies, does not innovate.
I could mention others - but this will do to make my point.
Presumably what you've held back is the really good stuff. Here's a tiny piece of evidence. It stacks up well against nothing. There has never been observed or documented any source of complex, specified, information other than intelligent agents anywhere. Intelligence is the only known, documented cause. Feel free to elaborate on how wrong you think that is. But it's the best explanation available. The alternative is random chance, and that's not to be taken seriously.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Re #125 Are you asking whether ID is science? That’s covered in the FRWA FAQ. No. For the third (or is it the fourth?) time I am asking you to give me positive evidence for ID. You can do this by either describing the evidence itself or by directing me to an article that does so. But please don't direct me to 38 articles and tell me it is in there somewhere. Or point me to a paper which "contains" some links to the research. You are convinced that there is positive evidence for ID - just describe whatever convinced you. To put a bit of flesh on the request. Consider some of the arguments that have been put forward as evidence for RM+NS. 1) Microevolution. The process of RM+NS has been observed to produce small changes in the genotype and phenotype over small periods of time - both in the lab and the in the field. While this does not conclusively prove macroevolution it is evidence for it. 2) NS+artificial selection. This analogous process has produced rather larger changes in genotype and phenotype over longer periods. 3) Computer simulations. While these do not simulate all aspects of RM+NS they do show how surprising complexity can arise from a simple process of mutation and selection over a long period of time. I could mention others - but this will do to make my point. I do not want to debate these arguments. That has been done many times ad nauseam on this forum. My point is that these are all about RM+NS, how it works, what its consequences are, etc. To the best of my knowledge there is no corresponding discussion of ID. All ID does is go over the same arguments and tries to refute them. In then calls it CSI or IC.Mark Frank
June 13, 2009
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Alan Fox:
This is my (and, I think Mark’s) point. Let us suppose for the sake of argument RM + NS is a very poor hypothesis, what is the positive evidence for ID as science?
Are you asking whether ID is science? That's covered in the FRWA FAQ. Sometimes I forget what I'm up against - the belief that random chance is the best possible explanation for all that exists, and that any alternative must measure up to it. If we rule out design, the only rational answer left is that we haven't a clue.ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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Scott, exactly what kind of evidence are you looking for?Khan
June 13, 2009
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I must have left it right next to all the evidence for speciation via RM+NS. Can you help me find it?
This is my (and, I think Mark's) point. Let us suppose for the sake of argument RM + NS is a very poor hypothesis, what is the positive evidence for ID as science?Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Mark Frank:
Yes in all that time I have never come across positive evidence for ID.
I must have left it right next to all the evidence for speciation via RM+NS. Can you help me find it?ScottAndrews
June 13, 2009
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#117 I don't understand. Your links are excerpts from biology text books. You don't even offer an argument as to why these are evidence for design. All you do is quote the analogies the authors used to explain the process. Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the argument.Mark Frank
June 13, 2009
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Positive evidence for ID can be found by following the links in comment 73
Orly? The links are to your own blog, where you, presumably unaided, have written stuff. Evidence for ID I don't see.
If you don’t think that is evidence for ID then please provide the evidence that would demonstrate unguided processes can produce such a thing- or admit that you a FoS and don’t have a case against ID.
I haven't seen any positive evidence that ID is science. By asking me to convince you that RM + NS is a workable scientific hypothesis, you merely underline the negative aspect of ID. It is not searching the available evidence, suggesting testable hypotheses or experimenting. I don't have a case against ID because there is no substance to scientific ID. The plan is to have barbecued Toulouse sausage for supper and then I shall be "Full of Sausage".Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Mr Joseph, The synthesized ribosome only makes ONE product. I think you are confusing what they actually have done with the ribosome with the limits of what it can do. Luciferase is a common test protein because it can be detected easily (by machine) if it is correctly synthesized. I can only find repetitions of the original press report on the web, no reference to a scientific paper. Have you read a paper on this, or are you relying on the same press reports? If so, I would be careful making any positive claim about what the synthetic ribosome can or cannot do.Nakashima
June 13, 2009
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