Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epigenetic Inheritance: Can Evolution Adapt?

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Given how routinely evolution fails to explain biology, it is remarkable that scientists still believe in the nineteenth century idea. One of the many problems areas is adaptation. Evolution holds that populations adapt to environmental pressures via the natural selection of blind variations. If more fur is needed, and some individuals accidentally are endowed with mutations that confer a thicker coat of fur, then those individuals will have greater survival and reproduction rates. The thicker fur mutation will then become common in the population.

This is the evolutionary notion of change. It is not what we find in biology. Under the hood, biology reveals far more complex and intelligent mechanisms for change, collectively referred to as epigenetic inheritance. You can read more about the challenge that this form of inheritance poses for evolution here. The take home message is that adaptation is routinely found to be not blind, but rather responsive to environmental pressures. The fur becomes thicker not by accident, but via cellular mechanisms responding to a need.

There is still much to learn about this phenomenal built-in adaptation capability, but it now is clear, and has been for many years, that epigenetic inheritance is a dramatic departure from evolutionary expectations. Indeed, this sort of adaptation is closer to the ideas of the long disgraced French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829). Lamarck’s idea was that offspring inherit traits or characteristics that were acquired by the parents. Although epigenetic inheritance is far more complex than anything Lamarck imagined, he was remarkably close to what is now being discovered. You can see a recent review of what has been learned here. Only a few years ago positive references to Lamarck drew heated response. Such ideas were not tolerated. Now his name appears regularly in the epigenetics literature.

This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least.

Continue reading here.

Comments
Mr Joseph, PoS, FoS? What do these acronyms mean? I can't find them in my Japanese-English dictionary?Nakashima
June 13, 2009
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Positive evidence for ID can be found by following the links in comment 73 If you don't think that is evidence for ID then please provide the evidence that would demonstrate unguided processes can produce such a thing- or admit that you a FoS and don't have a case against ID.Joseph
June 13, 2009
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I say that because I qualified my statement about non-functional ribosomes by saying they will not function until someone learns how to program them. Alan Fox:
What would you call mRNA?
The nucleotide sequence that gets translated into a string of amino acids. It looks like they figured that out in their synthesizing process- most likely an accidental byproduct. However the synthesized ribosome can only make one product.
With all necessary ingredients available, a ribosome will translate the mRNA sequence to which it attaches.
The synthesized ribosome only makes ONE product. And yes once the proper programming is in place a ribosome shopuld follow its instructions. Do you really think that helps your position? (I am sure you do but then again any and everything supports your position in your mind)
I don’t have a position to defend.
That is a sure sign of an intellectual coward- a person who won't take a stand.
Like Mark Frank, I am curious to see positive evidence that there can be something called scientific intelligent design.
And I have provided more than enough evidence for that. Just because people like you and Mark choose to ignore the evidence doesn't mean anything to me and it sure as heck doesn't make the evidence go away.Joseph
June 13, 2009
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Onlookers: We should remember that UD is currently experiencing a wave of Darwinist advocates pumping out their rhetorical talking points. A few quick notes: 1 --> Natural selection may in part explain the SURVIVAL of the fittest, it does not explain their ARRIVAL. 2 --> The material issue is that for first life and for major novel body plans, the quantum of functionally specific, complex information required is well beyond the reasonable probabilistic resources of the observed universe. (To see details cf first the weak argument correctives the advocates want you to overlook, above right.) 3 --> For, even 1,000 bits of functional info takes in a contingency space that is 10 times the SQUARE of the 10^150 quantum states of all the atoms of our universe shifting at the Planck time, for the thermodynamically plausible duration of the universe since the Big Bang and onward. 4 --> First life requires credibly 600,000 bits of information [9.9 * 10^180,617 states in the config space . . . . ], and novel phylum level body plans look like coming in at 10's - 100's of mega bits of novel, embryologically feasible bio-information. (Which of course brings in epigenetic factors.) 5 --> That isolation of functional islands in the config spaces on that scope, is why Hoyle's 747 in a junkyard formed by a tornado is amn aptr comment, and the problem with focussign attention on hill climbing through cumulative selection to reach teh top of Mt Improbable, is that one first has to get tot he shores of isle of fucntion int eh sea of non-funciton. 6 --> And, as to the issue of positicve evidence, we see it all around us: IN EVERY CASE OF KNOWN ORIGIN (and the 'net provides MILLIONS of easily accessed cases in point . . . . ], FSCI IS THE PRODUCT OF INTELLIGENCE, I.E. FSCI IS AN EMPIRICALLY RELIABLE SIGN OF INTELLIGENCE. 7 --> So given the statistical thermodynamuics issues that lurk under the 747 in a junkyard example, we are entitled -- per the inference to best explanation/ abduction reasoning that underlies the praxis of science (and especially origins science) -- to confidently infer from sign to the signified cause of the entity exhibiting the sign. 8 --> So, the endlessly repeated "no positive evidence" talking point reflects closed-minded, question-begging selective hyperskepticism in the teeth of easily available facts. A selective hyperskepticism that is driven by Lewontin's a priori commitment to materialism [and here, "methodological materialism" soon reduces to philosophical materialism]:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [NYRB, 1997]
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 13, 2009
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Joe writes:
Alan, I read what you posted on Telic Thoughts and you are a real PoS.
Person of science, paragon of sense, pinnacle of sanity?
I say that because I qualified my statement about non-functional ribosomes by saying they will not function until someone learns how to program them.
What would you call mRNA?
It looks like they figured that out in their synthesizing process- most likely an accidental byproduct. However the synthesized ribosome can only make one product.
With all necessary ingredients available, a ribosome will translate the mRNA sequence to which it attaches.
Do you really think that helps your position? (I am sure you do but then again any and everything supports your position in your mind)
I don't have a position to defend. Like Mark Frank, I am curious to see positive evidence that there can be something called scientific intelligent design. I am an optimist!Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Instead, in order for the the ‘tornado’ scenario to be an accurate “model” of evolution, the 747 should be built in steps, each step having a stochastic and/or deterministic aspect. Otherwise, IMO, the calculation as well as the comparison is invalid and misleading.
Plus should not each intermediate be viable enough to survive as a functional entity? :)Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Mark Frank writes:
Yes in all that time I have never come across positive evidence for ID. The only evidence I have ever seen is based on CSI or IR - both of which are at core based on the improbability of RM+NS.
I can echo what Mark says. I just can't manage to glimpse the emperor's new clothes, either, despite having followed the fortunes of the ID movement over the last three or four years. "Where's the beef?"Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Arigatou gozaimashita Nakashima san.Alan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Link to Telic Thoughts thread on ribosome synthesisAlan Fox
June 13, 2009
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Re #108 You did say that you’ve been following this debate for several years. Yes in all that time I have never come across positive evidence for ID. The only evidence I have ever seen is based on CSI or IR - both of which are at core based on the improbability of RM+NS. Try #3, which links to some research. When I link to #3 I get a complete blank. No doubt a technical error but poignant all the same! Instead of vague references to search on this or look at this list can you not just direct me to a piece of writing that makes a positive case for ID. Or don't you know of any such piece?Mark Frank
June 12, 2009
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Mark Frank @107: You did say that you've been following this debate for several years. Try #3, which links to some research. Yes, some of them mention competing theories and even contrast with them. Also try "Intelligent Design" in the glossary. It explains the basis for the positive inferences ID makes. There's not much point in rehashing probabilities. Sometimes great improbability doesn't mean small possibility. If means never, ever, ever. But people are either married to it or they own stock in it, and so they put faith in it.ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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Re #106 My point is that 1) ID makes a positive inference. ScottAndrews You were going to point me to the part of the site that gives evidence for ID other than by trying to show the improbability of RM+NS. You got as far as pointing me to 38 articles but failed to indicate which one.Mark Frank
June 12, 2009
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Khan @105: The original point goes back a thread including #72, in which Mark Frank said:
The point is that the whole case for ID is built on attacking one specific model of how inheritance takes place – random mutation of DNA with all mutations equally probable.
The posts go on to suggest that epigenetic inheritance negates ID because it's not random like RM+NS. My point is that 1) ID makes a positive inference. It is an alternative to any strictly natural process, not just RM+NS. 2) Epigenetic inheritance (EI?) may explain some adaptations, but a trait that manipulates genes and produces new traits in response to the environment requires an explanation of its own. It has to know a) what the environmental pressure is, b) what modification would help, and c) how to manipulate the genes to produce that modification. I guess there was no question. Just an observation.ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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Scott, then what exactly is your question?Khan
June 12, 2009
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Mr Fox, Your link to the ribsome synthesis story is broken.Nakashima
June 12, 2009
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Khan @102: It's not difficult to understand at all. If I'm not mistaken, there is even documented evidence of the changes such processes can effect upon the shapes of bird's beaks and the survivability of certain species of bacteria.
organisms vary in expression of a trait (through mutation, recombination, epigenetics, maybe more)
Your definition of evolution begins with "expression of a trait" and ends with "variations of that trait. I'm not disagreeing. You are describing exactly what evolution does. (What's that strange feeling - could it be my head wrapping the difficult process?)ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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Scott, the process of adaptation is not unknown at all. it is one of the fundamental processes of biology. it can be broken down into 3 conditions: 1) organisms vary in expression of a trait (through mutation, recombination, epigenetics, maybe more) 2) that variation is heritable (can be passed down from parent to offspring (through genes or epigenetic effects) 3) this variable expression results in differential survival and reproductive success; i.e. individuals with one version of a trait survive and reproduce better than those with a different version of that trait if these 3 conditions are met, then adaptation by natural selection occurs. it seems simple, but it is a very difficult process to get your head around. really the best way to understand it is to take an evolution class or at least read some texts.Khan
June 12, 2009
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Mr Joseph, And here I am thinking I was controlling what I do but Nakashima has demonstrated it is all in the genes. Only if you are admitting you are a spider. :)Nakashima
June 12, 2009
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Khan:
Scott, ok, but the answer remains the same. do you understand the process of adaptation (I am not being snarky, I am just asking)?
Loosely, adaptation is change to improve fitness or survivability. As for what processes result in adaptation, that's the unknown that we're discussing.ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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hI HERB, Hmm—well, I don’t think I’m making any assumptions about how the tornado(s) managed to assemble the 747. It could go in a number of steps as well as in one fell swoop. As Joseph mentioned (facetiously, I think) there could be several tornadoes acting in concert, say one rotating along each coordinate axis; that could make the likelihood of assembly somewhat higher, but it would still be absurdly low, IHMO. I think, if that is the case, then the entire analogy is suspect. Certainly not worth basing a probability calculation on it. Sometimes analogies become so strained it becomes time to just chuck them in the dustbin.Dave Wisker
June 12, 2009
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Dave Wisker,
Re: herb’s “tornado in a junkyard” probability calculation: The “tornado” scenario is that the 747 assembles spontaneously, that it is not assembled in steps.
Hmm---well, I don't think I'm making any assumptions about how the tornado(s) managed to assemble the 747. It could go in a number of steps as well as in one fell swoop. As Joseph mentioned (facetiously, I think) there could be several tornadoes acting in concert, say one rotating along each coordinate axis; that could make the likelihood of assembly somewhat higher, but it would still be absurdly low, IHMO.herb
June 12, 2009
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herb:
I’m not sure why the evos don’t understand the logic. Maybe a more specific example would help: Every time Boeing assembles a 747, that is evidence that nature operating freely can’t do it.
Absolutely. And every time I dig a ditch, that is evidence that nature operating freely can't do it. That logic is as solid as the Grand Canyon.
According to wikipedia, there have been 1,416 747’s built, so the chances of one arising through a “tornado in a junkyard” scenario must be less than 1/1,416, otherwise we would have observed one already. By independence, the probability that 747’s cannot arise through chance and necessity is 1 - (1/1,416)^1,416 which is 1 according to my calculator.
Wow. With that probabilistic reasoning, I think you might have just stolen Dr. Dembski's crown.R0b
June 12, 2009
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Scott, ok, but the answer remains the same. do you understand the process of adaptation (I am not being snarky, I am just asking)?Khan
June 12, 2009
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Khan: Yeah, that didn't sound right when I typed it. Here's the revised post: The method of inheritance is not a relevant issue at all. Neither RM+NS nor Lamarckism explains the origin of what gets inherited. If organisms change in response to their environment, then how? What natural process interprets an organism’s needs, determines an appropriate solution, and then manipulates its genes accordingly? I’m not denying the possibility. But the adaptations require explanation. If the answer is that they came from the built-in adaptation mechanism, then that mechanism requires explanation.ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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Scott, they're all natural. i put quotes around "natural force" bc adaptation really isn't a force, but a process.Khan
June 12, 2009
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Khan: Which of these elements are you now claiming is not natural?ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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Re: herb's "tornado in a junkyard" probability calculation: The "tornado" scenario is that the 747 assembles spontaneously, that it is not assembled in steps. Does the Boeing manufacturing scenario also assume that the aircraft is not assembled in steps, but all at once? If not, then you really aren't comparing the two scenarios properly. Instead, in order for the the 'tornado' scenario to be an accurate "model" of evolution, the 747 should be built in steps, each step having a stochastic and/or deterministic aspect. Otherwise, IMO, the calculation as well as the comparison is invalid and misleading.Dave Wisker
June 12, 2009
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Scott,
If organisms change in response to their environment, then how? What natural force interprets an organism’s needs, determines an appropriate solution, and then manipulates its genes accordingly?
it sounds like the "natural force" you're describing is the process of adaptation- variation, heritability and differential reproductive success .or am i missing something?Khan
June 12, 2009
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Another note to Alan Fox: Life: What a concept! Start a search on "ribosome"-
Then stage three, which I would say is the most mysterious, began when these two systems started to collaborate. It began when the invention of the ribosome, which to me is the central mystery. There’s a tremendous lot to be done with investigating the archaeology of the ribosome. I hope some of you people will do it.-Freeman Dyson
I hope so too. As I have said it appears the only way to convince people of ID is the total failure of their position. No other evidence will suffice. On page 51 Craig Venter says the following which was the basis of what I originally said to Alan:
These things get down to basic definitions of life. The lay press likes to talk about creating life from scratch. But while we can create and develop new species, we're not creating life from scratch. We talked about the ribosome; we tried to make synthetic ribosomes, starting with the genetic code and building them — the ribosome is such an incredibly beautiful complex entity, you can make synthetic ribosomes, but they don't function totally yet. Nobody knows how to get ones that can actually do protein synthesis. But starting with an intact ribosome is cheating anyway right? That is not building life from scratch but relying on billions of years of evolution.- Craig Venter
So even though a ribosome has been synthesized that does produce a protein product, according to Venter also, it is "cheating". But that is not even the point. The point is the ribosome is evidence for ID because of what it does- it translates- it is a genetic compiler. The fact that nature, operating freely cannot account for it just strengthens the design inference. IOW I don't infer the ribosome was designed because it isn't reducible. That it isn't reducible (or hasn't been found to be yet) just strengthens that initial inference based on its functionality and composition.Joseph
June 12, 2009
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Khan: The method of inheritance is not a relevant issue at all. Neither RM+NS nor Lamarckism explains the origin of what gets inherited. If organisms change in response to their environment, then how? What natural force interprets an organism's needs, determines an appropriate solution, and then manipulates its genes accordingly? I'm not denying the possibility. But the adaptations require explanation. If the answer is that they came from the built-in adaptation mechanism, then that mechanism requires explanation. The mode of inheritance doesn't affect evolution. It doesn't affect ID either.ScottAndrews
June 12, 2009
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