Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epistemology. It’s What You Know

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BarryA’s definition of a philosopher:  A bearded guy in a tweed jacket and Birkenstocks who writes long books explaining how it is impossible to communicate through language without apparently realizing the irony of expressing that idea through, well, language. 

Seriously, I have read a lot of philosophy, and I find some of the philosophers’ ideas valuable (that is, when I can decipher them though the almost impenetrable thicket of jargon in which they are usually expressed).  In particular, epistemology (the theory of what we know and how we know it) is one of the most useful philosophical ideas for the ID – Darwinism debate.  Indeed, many of the discussions on this blog turn on questions of epistemology.  So I thought it would be helpful to give a brief overview of the subject in the ID context.  So here goes – 

Consider the following statement one often hears:  “We can be as certain that the diversity and complexity of living things arose by chance and necessity through blind watchmaker Darwinism (BWD) as we are that the earth orbits the sun.” 

To examine this statement, we must first understand what it means to “know” something, and this is where epistemology comes in.  The standard philosophical definition of knowledge is “justified true belief.”  Why not just “true belief”?  Because if we have no basis for our belief, the fact that our belief might in fact be true would be a mere coincidence.  We cannot, therefore, say we know something unless we have evidence to support our belief; in other words, the belief is justified. 

Keep in mind that our beliefs can never be justified in an absolute sense.  You have a justified belief that you are sitting at your computer reading this scintillating post.  Even though this belief is highly justified and almost certainly true, you cannot rule out that you are dreaming or that you are in the Matrix or that you have been deceived by one of Descartes’ demons.   

A corollary to the proposition that beliefs can never be absolutely justified is that justification is always relative.  Indeed, these are two ways of saying the same thing.  Thus, justification of our beliefs comes in degrees; some beliefs are more justified than others.  About some beliefs we can be all but certain they are true.  While there is some remote possibility you are in the Matrix and not actually reading this post, for all practical purposes we can discount the Matrix possibility and conclude that your belief is true.   

It is interesting to note that the Matrix idea is not new.  In the 1700’s George Berkeley (after whom the California city and university are named) proposed that an individual cannot know that an object “is.”  He can only know that he has a “perception” that there is an object.  In his “Life of Johnson” Boswell records Dr. Johnson’s response to Berkeley: 

“After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley’s ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal.  I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it – ‘I refute it thus.’” 

At one level Boswell was right and Johnson was wrong.  As a matter of pure logic, Berkeley’s ideas are irrefutable.  Berkeley would have replied that when Johnson kicked the stone, all he could be certain of was that he had a perception in his mind that he kicked a stone.  He could not be absolutely certain that he had in fact kicked a stone.  Nevertheless, Johnson’s main point is valid.  Our sensory experience of the outside world is all we have.  If we doubt that experience, we are left in a hopeless mire of doubt and skepticism.  Therefore, while we can never be certain that Berkeley was wrong, as a practical matter, in order to live our lives and make progress in science, we can safely ignore him.   

It is beyond the scope of this post to discuss philosophical hyper-skepticism in detail.  For my present purposes, I will note that even hyper-skeptics look both ways when they cross the street.  In other words, while hyper-skepticism may be interesting to discuss in the parlor on Sunday afternoon after lunch, it is perhaps the least practically helpful idea in all of philosophy.  For the scientific enterprise (and life generally) hyper-skepticism may be dismissed with a nod.   

In summary, therefore, we can trust our sense impressions to give us generally reliable information about the world upon which to base our scientific conclusions.  For my purposes here, “sense impressions” include both direct impressions on our senses and impressions from various measuring instruments such as telescopes and microscopes.  Moreover, science has a check against conclusions based upon erroneous sense impressions.  All scientific observations must be “inter-subjectively” testable.  In other words – as the scientists who announced they had achieved cold fusion a few years ago found to their dismay – scientific conclusions are not usually accepted until other scientists replicate the results in independent experiments.   

Having slain the dragon of hyper-skepticism (or at least banished him to his cave like the bad boy he is),  we move on to the practical business of scientific discovery.  This method is familiar to most of us.  In truncated summary the model is: 

1.  Think of a question that needs to be answered.  

2.  Formulate a hypothesis to answer the question.

3.  Test the hypothesis by experiment and/or observation. 

Here is where the concept of “fact” comes in.  In philosophy, a “fact” is a state of affairs described by a true proposition.  In science we say that a “fact” is an objective and verifiable observation.  I have a hammer in my office (I don’t know why, but I really do).  Just now I picked up the hammer, held it above the floor, and dropped it.  The following is a statement of fact.  “It is a fact that Barry’s hammer fell to the floor when he dropped it.”  In science we have a epistemic hierarchy:   

1.  Facts:  The raw objective and verifiable observations.  Of the correspondence between truth and proposition, this is where we have the most confidence.  Unless I’m in the Matrix (a possibility we have decided to ignore), it cannot reasonably be disputed that my hammer really did drop to the floor. 

2.  Hypothesis:  An explanation for a phenomenon that can be tested. 

3.  Theory:  A coherent model that gives a general explanation of observed data. 

About facts, we can be certain, but our conclusions based on those facts (our theories) are less certain.  In fact, some of our most cherished beliefs can turn out to be untrue even though they were highly justified and seemed to correspond to the data perfectly.   

Ptolemy’s cosmology is a perfect example.  Ptolemy, who lived from about 83 to 161 AD, was the greatest of the ancient astronomers.  It is a modern conceit that the ancients were quaint simpletons who thought we live in a cozy little universe.  It is true that the ancients did not know as much as we do, but they were not stupid.  For example, Ptolemy knew the universe is enormous.  In the “Almagest,” his famous work on astronomy, he wrote that the earth, in relation to the distance of the fixed stars, has no appreciable size and must be treated as a mathematical point.   

Not only did Ptolemy know that we live in an immense universe, he also knew that the celestial bodies behave in certain highly predictable ways.  On a certain night of the year Orion, for example, is always in the same place in the sky.  While the stars seemed to be fixed in place, the planets seemed to wander among them (“planet” means “wanderer”).  Ptolemy combined these observations with his belief that the earth was the center of the universe and developed a system, a theory, that predicted the movements of the celestial bodies with great accuracy.   

Briefly, in Ptolemaic cosmology “deferents” are large circles centered on the Earth.  “Epicycles” are small circles the centers of which move around the circumference of a deferent.  So the sun, the moon and the planets have their own epicycles, and each epicycle in turn moves along a deferent around the earth.  This system sounds very complex, and it was.  But it provided astonishingly accurate predictions of the movements of the celestial bodies.  In Ptolemy’s “Handy Tables,” one could find all the data needed to predict the positions of the sun, moon, planets and stars and also eclipses of the sun and moon. 

Ptolemy’s system was so good that it was the basis upon which celestial predictions were made for over a thousand years.  Copernicus first published his theories in 1543.  Forty years earlier, armed only with his knowledge of Ptolemy, Columbus was able to awe the Indians on present day Jamaica by predicting the lunar eclipse of February 29, 1504. 

Importantly, note that Ptolemy’s system has every attribute of a sound scientific theory, and if the scientific method had been around in his day, scientific experiments would have supported his theory.  For example, suppose Ptolemy was interested in accounting for the observed movement of Mars across the sky.  He could have used the steps of the scientific method as follows: 

1.  Question:  What accounts for the observations of Mars’ movements across the sky. 

2.  Hypothesis:  Mars orbits a certain epicycle which in turn moves around the circumference of a certain deferent. 

3.  Observation/test:  When we look at the sky and make numerous detailed observations of Mars’ position, we see that Mars’ motion though the sky is perfectly consistent with the posited epicycle and deferent. 

4.  Conclusion:  The hypothesis is not falsified. 

5.  Theory:  This non-falsified hypothesis is consistent with the general theory that all celestial bodies move along epicycles and deferents.   

Ptolemy’s cosmology was accepted for over 1,400 years.  It began to crumble only when later observations of the celestial bodies required more and more and more adjustments to the theory so that it became staggeringly complex.  Along comes Copernicus with a judgment based upon his religious sensibilities:  Surely God would not have designed such a clunky universe.  There has to be a more elegant answer.  And motivated by his essentially aesthetic judgment, he developed a heliocentric cosmology that gradually displaced Ptolemy.   

Yet another modern conceit is that scholars in Copernicus’ and Galileo’s day rejected heliocentric cosmology for dogmatic religious reasons even though the conclusion that Copernicus’ model was superior was intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.  This is simply not true.  Yes, religious considerations motivated opposition to Copernicus to a degree.  That cannot be denied.  Nevertheless, the conceit is false.  Sixteenth century scholars were not motivated SOLELY by religious considerations as the conceited modern would have it.  They had good SCIENTIFIC arguments to support their position.  These arguments turned out to be wrong, to be sure, but it is important to remember that they were not utterly unreasonable.   

Ptolemy was wrong, but he was not stupid.  His beliefs were justified in the sense that there was substantial evidence to support them.  He observed the celestial bodies move in certain ways; from his perspective the sun appeared to orbit the earth.  Even today we say the sun rises when we know it does no such thing.  Ptolemy’s fundamental assumption was that the earth is the center of the universe.  His assumption was not based upon dogmatic anthro-centrism.  He argued for his conclusion based on the data he observed.  Ptolemy believed that all bodies fall toward the center of the universe.  All falling objects are seen to drop toward the center of the earth.  Therefore, the earth must be the center of the universe. Ptolemy rejected the notion that earth rotates on the ground that objects thrown into the air fall back to the same place from which they were thrown, which would be impossible if the earth were rotating beneath them while they were in the air. 

But the most fundamental reason that scholars did not immediately roll over and accept Copernicus was the fact that, for all its clunkiness, Ptolemy’s system had for 1,400 years provided exceedingly accurate predictions about the movements of the celestial bodies.  They said, “The system we have accounts for the observed data exceedingly well and has done so for well over a millennium.  The burden is on you, Copernicus and Galileo, to show us why we should abandon it.”  Only in retrospect, with the advantage of 500 years of experience, do we look back on the scholars of Copernicus’ day with contempt.   

For our purposes it is important to note that for the most part, the “facts” Copernicus used to develop his theory were the same “facts” Ptolemy used to develop his.  Copernicus looked at the sky and saw the same movements of the celestial bodies Ptolemy saw.  But by the time of Copernicus there had been many additional observations, and Ptolemy had had to be tweaked again and again to account for these new observations, and Copernicus began to suspect that these tweakings were ad hoc, and perhaps the theory itself needed to be reexamined.  The death blow, of course, was Galileo’s observations – made possible by improvements in telescope technology – of the four largest moons of Jupiter.  If moons orbit around Jupiter, it is obvious that not everything orbits the earth as Ptolemy believed.   

Now what does all of this have to do with the statement under consideration:  “We can be as certain that the diversity and complexity of living things arose by chance and necessity through BWD as we are that the earth orbits the sun.” 

Once we understand basic principles of epistemology, we understand that this statement is obviously false.  Breaking the statement down we see that it combines three propositions:  (1) We know the diversity and complexity of living things arose by chance and necessity through BWD.  (2) We know the earth orbits the sun.  (3) Our knowledge of “facts” (1) and (2) is epistemically equal. 

But it takes no great perspicuity to see that statement (1) is at a wholly different epistemic level than statement (2).  Statement (2) is an objective and verifiable observation.  We have gone into space and actually observed the earth orbiting the sun.  Conversely, statement (1) has not been the subject of a direct, objective and verifiable observation.  No one has ever observed any living thing evolve into a different species.  Inescapable conclusion:  Statement (3) is false. 

Now all of this is not to say that I am certain that the diversity and complexity of living things did not arise by chance and necessity through BWD.  I am in fact not certain at all.  While I personally do not believe it, this proposition may be true.  My point is not to “disprove” Darwinism.  My point is that the debate will be much more robust if we all use proper epistemic categories.  The story of Ptolemy is a cautionary tale for those who would make statements like the one we discussed above.  There are obvious parallels between Ptolemy and Darwin. 

1.  Ptolemy was a brilliant astronomer who made countless highly detailed observations from which he developed a theory of cosmology.  Darwin was a brilliant biologist (despite the fact that he had no formal credentials in the discipline) who made countless highly detailed observations from which he developed a theory of evolution. 

2.  Ptolemy’s theory is based on a fundamental assumption:  the earth is the center of the universe around which all celestial bodies orbit.  Darwin’s theory is based upon a fundamental assumption:  chance and necessity are the only forces available to account for the diversity and complexity of life. 

3.  If Ptolemy’s fundamental assumption were correct, something like his cosmology is NECESSARILY true as a matter of logic.  If Darwin’s fundamental assumption were correct, something like his theory is NECESSARILY true as a matter of logic. 

4.  Given the information available to him, Ptolemy’s theory accounted for the data brilliantly.  Given the data available to Darwin (and indeed to all biologists through about 1950), his theory accounts for the data brilliantly.   

5.  New data was observed, and numerous ad hoc adjustments had to be made to Ptolemy’s theory.  New data arose (for example, it is now generally accepted that the fossil does not support gradualism in the way Darwin envisioned), and ad hoc adjustments to the theory have been made (e.g., punctuated equilibrium).   

6.  A new theory (heliocentrism) was proposed to compete with Ptolemy.  The new theory rejected Ptolemy’s central assumption, but Ptolemy’s defenders clung to the old theory in large part due to their metaphysical/philosophical/religious commitments and refused to give the new theory a fair evaluation.  A new theory has arisen (ID) to compete with Darwin.  The new theory rejects Darwins’s central assumption by positing that a third force (agency) may account for the data.  Darwin’s defenders cling to the old theory in large part due to their metaphysical/philosophical/religious commitments and refuse to give the new theory a fair evaluation  

7.  Ptolemy and Copernicus were attempting to develop a model that accounted for the same “facts,” i.e., the observed motions of the celestial bodies were the same for both camps.  Darwinists and ID theorists also must deal with the same “facts.”  For example, the fossil record is a fact.  Both camps have to deal with the same fossil record.  It is the interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves that make the difference.   

8.  In the end, new technology made it possible for profound new data to be discovered that simply could not be accounted for in Ptolemy’s theory (Jupiter’s moons orbiting around that planet).  In recent years new data has been discovered (staggeringly and irreducibly complex nano-machines in the cell; extraordinarily complex specified information stored in the DNA molecule) that cannot be accounted for in Darwin’s model.  Consider:  Is the electronic microscope analogous to Galileo’s improved telescope? 

9.  Pope Urban VIII persecuted Galileo for his “heretical” ideas in opposition to Ptolemy.  High priests of an entrenched and hidebound secular orthodoxy persecute ID proponents for their “heretical” ideas in opposition to Darwinism and the philosophical materialism upon which it is based.  Consider:  Is Richard Dawkins analogous to Pope Urban VIII?  Are Dembski and Behe the new Copernicus and Galileo?   

This has been fun to write.  I hope my readers enjoy it and find it useful.

Comments
-----aiguy: "I’m not afraid of any of the possible answers to these deep questions. I am afraid of people who believe that their particular take must be the gospel truth, deriding all other ideas as irrational, and especially how they might wish to extend their conceit to normative issues, extending “no mercy” (and no honest hearing) to ideas that don’t jibe with their own." You make me sound like a dogmatic, pedantic, ideologue. I am not. I only insist on the basic self evident truths the make rationality possible. There are a few things that we all must agree on or logic goes out the window. The list isn’t very long, and at the top we find this one proposition: [1] We have rational minds, [2] We live in a rational universe, and [3] There is a correspondence between the two. Kant, in spite of his noble motives, created an intellectual and philosophical breach by destroying that link. The breach has now become the standard operating principle for most philosophers and scientist. The results have been disastrous. If you don’t believe that the images in the mind reflect the corresponding objects of sense experience outside of the mind, reason loses its value. For one thing, syllogisms become meaningless because they constitute nothing more than intellectual exercises that lack any capacity to put us in contact with the real world. For another, it kills motivation for seeking out truth in the first place. It even causes us to wonder if we have the cognitive search tool to do the seeking. You are not the only one that questions these things. Our entire culture has lost its confidence, and it doesn’t have to be that way. In Mortimer Adler’s piece, “Little Errors In the Beginning,” he points out that “The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold.” He goes on to say this: “When you disagree with a philosopher's conclusions, regard them as untenable, or find them repugnant to common sense, go back to his starting point and see if he has made a little error in the beginning.” As it turns out, Kant felt the need to correct a problem that wasn’t really there. Hume had made a “little error in the beginning,” that should have been caught. Indeed, this error was caught at the time by Reid, but too few thinkers paid heed to his warnings. That same error and Kant’s response to it is the reason so many doubt the very same self evident truths that we must all assume at the beginning of any investigation in any context. It is not natural to doubt one’s own mind or to wonder if there is such a thing as truth. It may be a prevalent or even dominant component of the current cultural zeitgeist, but it is not normal. Daily, I come in contact with folks who try to persuade me that we have no free will, and the irony always escapes them. FREE WILL IS A NECESSARY COMPONENT FOR PERSUADING AND BEING PERSUADED. That the point didn’t occur to them in the first place is evidence of the nature of the problem. That they don’t believe it after hearing it is evidence of the seriousness of the problem. The only way to restore ourselves, philosophically speaking is to return to the epistemological realism of Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas. We should never have abandoned it in the first place.StephenB
January 9, 2008
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StephenB, Let us accept a counterfactual arguendo, and agree you are even half as smart as your self-assessment would apparently indicate, putting you in the company of, say, a Newton or a Leibniz. These folks were exceedingly careful, clever thinkers, and (as you say) did not arrive at their conclusions casually, but instead closed their minds on what they believed to be something solid. It turns out that in various ways that would have shocked them, both of these gentlemen had it quite wrong. Perhaps you have some favorite philosopher you take to be inerrant; I don't know of any. You criticize me (or, rather, my ideas) for being tentative about taking a dogmatic stand on these most ancient problems, and you make clear that you know your chosen answers are the way, the truth, and the light. But when I look at your (and BarryA's, and KF's) comments on, for example, machine intelligence, I find them at best poorly argued and more probably quite naive. I'm fascinated by philosophy of mind, and curious about biology. I have opinions, and a solid education upon which to base them. But I have no illusions of infallibility, and I have no vital stake in any particular position in these areas. I find that people often can't believe that is true - they insist that I must be committed to one side or another, and think I'm lying when I say I'm not. Maybe our minds do have some secret sauce that allows us to solve problems by pulling the solution out of thin air, and maybe they don't. Maybe some being with recognizable intelligence exists who created the universe, and maybe it doesn't exist, or maybe this being is so different from what we can imagine that the word "intelligence" is completely inappropriate. I don't pretend to know, and you find that honest and humble admission worthy of attack. I'm not afraid of any of the possible answers to these deep questions. I am afraid of people who believe that their particular take must be the gospel truth, deriding all other ideas as irrational, and especially how they might wish to extend their conceit to normative issues, extending "no mercy" (and no honest hearing) to ideas that don't jibe with their own.aiguy
January 9, 2008
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StevenB, I have pondered your reply 62, and I am sure you mean well. Perhaps BarryA's analogy will be effective, to a degree. The problem, as I see it, is that it will be obscuring some very crucial things that need to be clarified, because they are essential to the proper understanding about faith and reason, and about science and philosophy, the very things and errors that are causing the current confusion and problems for the ID. I understand that when presenting the problem to the public, the analogy has to be simplified, but I am still not sure that I agree with your simplification of the problem - your multiple choice categories. The pope's conduct was not so much a matter of personal "moral integrity", (people get confused about this with respect to the personal conduct of the so called "bad popes"), but rather of acting prudently and with respect to truth. Truth and upholding truth at all cost is the essence of Christianity. ("I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.") Incidentally, and quite significantly, upholding the truth is also the essence of real true science, and this is the right analogy we ought to pursue and convey. Multiple choice questions should be constructed so they are not fuzzy, but must present clear and mutually exclusive choices. (My pet peeve with many multiple choice quizes.) I would not be comfortable choosing simply that the "pope was slightly wrong", or that Galileo was "very wrong", I would want to know in what and why. Because the analogy has been fuzzified, this kind of choice would be immediately attacked and twisted by the academia, perhaps in some surprising and embarrassing ways. Actually, if pressed hard to choose, I would choose 1a (pope and the Magisterium fault free, when pressed hard to make a quick choice with which they were not comfortable, based on insifficient evidence they tried to slow down Galileo), and 2d or 2e (Galileo wrong), but even here I would be very uncomfortable to condemn him in such a wholesale way, because while he was a "fool" in some big ways, he was, after all, a pioneer of the modern notion of motion, and we are all sympathetic with hard-working pioneers, even if they turn out quite wrong and ridiculous. Galileo was wrong scientifically on many things, his error ridden science was not all that convincing and conducive to supporting his "outrageous" claims, and, most importantly, and this is the crucial thing for which he was condemned, his main claim that "the sun is the centre of the world and thus, is immobile", was correctly judged as "foolish and absurd in philosophy."rockyr
January 9, 2008
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StephenB "Bad ideas deserve no mercy at all, and I show them no mercy." Nicely put. In the law we say, "people who make errors have rights. Error has no rights."BarryA
January 9, 2008
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-----aiguy: "You actually seem to believe you have solved the problems of epistemology, and everyone on Earth who might see things differently is not only wrong, but unable to even have a “rational discussion”! Perhaps a short course in humility might improve your debating skills." You are getting a little sensitive aren't you? I was referring to the whole thread in general. You will recall I began by asking someone else a question and you ventured your own answer, which, as it turns out was a non-answer. The fact that my comment followed yours doesn’t mean that it was a direct response to it. My intent was to cast the net wide enough so that no one person would be implicated. That is why I didn’t open it with a quote. So, I apologize for the timing, since I obviously failed to meet that objective. Since we are at it, however, let's deal with your responses. Do you believe in free will? Apparently, you think the question is too abstruse to ponder. As a result, you will wait for the testimony of scientists. In your judgment, however, the prospects don’t look to good. Meanwhile, you provide an example in which the effect drives the cause. Are you a materialist? Well, not exactly, you are a "neutral monist." Apparently, you consider the universe to be so complicated that it would be premature to weigh in on the matter, as if the age- old problem has been rendered irrelevant by modern science. It hasn’t. There are times when we must use categories like that to further discussion, or even to make sense of them in our own mind. Are there minds? Well, let’s put in your words. “At this point, I honestly, truly believe that nobody knows the truth about mind and its essence - consciousness - and I am somewhat sympathetic to those like McGinn who argue that our minds are not capable of understanding these questions or providing answers. I hope he’s wrong, though: It could be something like the ideas of Penrose/Hameroff will come to fruition and tell us something substantive about minds, for example.” Do I think these tentative answers and many others on this thread stem from a nominalist epistemology? You bet I do, and I am fairly confident that I am right. Am I being presumptuous? Well, maybe. I would like to think that I am providing thought stimulators. There is no doubt that I have strong opinions, but they were not arrived at casually. G. K. Chesterton once said, “the purpose of opening the mind is to close it on something solid (truth). More and more, I encounter folks who seem to believe that a perpetually open mind is synonymous with brilliance. It isn’t. My purpose is not to offend. It is foolish to make enemies for no good reason. I want my enemies to hate me for what I believe, not for the way I act. I certainly don’t want to make an enemy of you. Still, you must understand something. The western mind has been seriously compromised by bad philosophy for hundreds of years. One of my test questions is this: Do you believe that a thing can be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances? The last two times I asked that question, the answer that followed was, “MAYBE” and “I’M NOT SURE.” I am attacking that philosophy, not the people who happen to be living at a time when it is running rampant. People are precious and they deserve to be treated with respect and mercy. Bad ideas deserve no mercy at all, and I show them no mercy.StephenB
January 9, 2008
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Onlookers, in re JT (and others): I had thought to make a simple point by point response until I met this at no 48:
(It is from this which kairosfocus just requested I read. Incidently kairos, why would this fifty page screed not have any author’s name attached as if it were immutable truth handed down from on high or something. Oops. I guess you wrote it. If I’m not mistaken, there are several passages you’ve taken directly from Dembski unattributed.
This is false [in the teeth of easily accessed facts from that very same page, which I will excerpt shortly], misleading, slanderously defamatory, and all too closely echoes the personal attack misbehaviour of Semiotic 007 in another thread, for which I have had to officially complain. Where I have cited information, the source is attributed, and in most cases linked (some sources are in texts). In particular, WD may have provided insights that I have used, but my thinking runs on similar not identical lines; driven by my exposure to information systems, communication theory and statistical and classical thermodynamics. (Notice that despite the rhetorical "victory" over the Creationists on 2LOT, I insist that they have had a point because I know the matter for myself, having had to think through the confusing conceptual issues tied to the usual presentations of the subject.) Notice too that from appendix 3 my always linked, my use of FSCI not CSI traces to TBO of TMLO and onward to Orgel et al. I even credit opponents, e.g Pixie, formerly a comentator here. It is all there in details for those fair minded enough to look before they shoot arrows from the ever so convenient ambushes of anonymity. Further to this, I have at the very head of the page in question labelled the briefing note, and the footer linked in the synopsis reads in part as in the second excerpt:
A Kairosfocus Briefing Note: HEAD: GEM 06:03:17; this adj. 06:12:16 - 17 to 07: 12: 13a.3.1 and 30 FOOT: . . . [NB: Because of abuse of my given name in blog commentary threads, I have deleted my given name from this page, and invite serious and responsible interlocutors to use my email contact below to communicate with me.] This page has been subsequently revised and developed, to date; so far, to clean up the clarity and flow of the argument, which is admittedly a difficult one, and add to the substance especially as key references are discovered one by one such as the recent Shapiro article in Sci Am . . . (DISCLAIMER: While reasonable attempts have been made to provide accurate, fair and informative materials for use in training, no claim is made for absolute truth, and corrections based on factual errors and/or gaps or inconsistencies in reasoning, etc., or typos, are welcome.) . . .
This, in a context where there are links that immediately allow those who need to look me up or communicate directly, to do so, including giving my name. Kindly cease and desist from such improper behaviour. (And, may God grant you grace to see and do better in future.) I will therefore -- as a mark of your breach of basic civility and fairness -- also now respond on points, not to your anonymous alias [note GEM is my initials, and TKI my consultancy and action organisational framework] directly but to those who look on: 1] Re JT, 48: My basic model ever since 10th grade geometry is reasoning from axioms. You start with basic foundational axioms which are presumed to be self evident and try to deduce everything else from that. There is no implication your axioms are definitely true or that they are known for an absolute fact to be true. You presume they are true. You presume the basic rules of inferential logic are true. You have as few axioms and assume as little as conceivably possible. Everything else must be proven through logic. What could be simpler. As if the past 200+ years of philosophy more or less never happened or are to be simply taken on board in parts without critical assessment of the possible little errors at the beginning! (Ironically, had JT taken time to look up my basic introductory-level tutorial on reasoning and believing in light of the reality of faith-points in all worldviews, here he would have seen that we may not be so far apart as he thinks. He would also see a few of the implications of what he has just said, as well, and where it leads: to the need for more sophisticated comparative difficulties analyses which take into account inter alia the sort of Kantian questions addressed in the so-called irrelevant discussion on epistemology. That discussion FYI JT, was added recently precisely because of meeting with Kantianism as an objection to ID; e.g cf recent interactions with Q and others here on how inference to design necessarily requires prior assumption of the existence of relevant agents.) 2] in re: I hand you a big long description specifying the known properties of this entity and how it operates in its environment. So you thank me because now you have a record of what this thing is. So what this entity does is determined by its environment and its own specific nature. Far simpler: subject the storage core of the relevant entity to perturbation. If its performance in its environment is sensitive to such, it is functionally specified and to one extent or another, fine-tuned. For instance observe that super-bugs arise though crippling of functionality through mutations, and so do not thrive in the real world. I even heard here at UD of doctors -- tongue in cheek? -- giving advice to go home and roll in the dirt a bit to get rid of a hospital superbug infection. More on the case of 10,000 coins, I showed that the macrostate is so statistically overwhelmed by the near 50-50 macrostate to the point where its occurence inteh real world is by design not chance, reliably. And BTW, it is HARD to get actual random numbers on a PC. [In my update to the million monkeys pecking at typewriters example, that is why I specified using a Zener noise source to feed a random bit stream through unspecified AD circuitry. So far as we know, Zener noise is by the laws of quantum mechanics and diffusion etc, reliably random. Getting noise form the radio noise of the ionosphere in the short wave bands might be another source -- I hear this can be used to make one-time message pads guaranteed to be unbreakable by code crunchers. Not working for MI5 or 6 etc [and if i did, I would not have a licensed assassin 007 agent code], I don't know if such is actually used.] 3] in re: I cannot even comprehend what ID’ists mean by something that is not operating according to law, So how can they consider it axiomatic. First, the trichotomy speaks to: chance [as just described in brief], necessity, agency as the three observed categories of cause at work, which as my example of the tumbling dice shows, may be all quite familiarly at work in a given situation, as was already excerpted at 38 as was the contrast of a hypothetical dice based information system:
PHASE I: A Tumbling Die: For instance, heavy objects tend to fall under the natural regularity we call gravity. If the object is a die, the face that ends up on the top from the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6} is for practical purposes a matter of chance. But, if the die is cast as part of a game [and just what random search algorithm credibly came up with say Monopoly . . . ?], the results are as much a product of agency as of natural regularity and chance. Indeed, the agents in question are taking advantage of natural regularities and chance to achieve their purposes! (This concrete, familiar illustration should suffice to show that the three causal factors approach is not at all arbitrary or dubious — as some are tempted to imagine or assert.)
Given this easy, readily accessed familiarity, I am very suspicious of any assertions that this is hard to recognise or to understand at a basic level. Prime suspect: as SteveB points out, the deleterious influences of Kantian phenomenalist thinking and its little errors at the beginning. Further to these errors, I note too that there are self evident truths -- try to falsify the claim, "error exists" and you instantiate it and so "prove" (in the sense of warrant) it for all relevant purposes instead -- but they do not nearly come to enough to consittute the core of a worldview in toto. [But of course, if error exists, knowable truth on the real external world exists in the context in which we may be mistaken about it, so must be open minded, critically aware and humble in our worldview claims.] So, we are forced to go to first plausible s and asses worldviews across comparative difficulties on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power. As I noted on previously, at 38 and in onward links. 4] AIG, 50: You have confused the process by which people or computers reason with the origin of their reasoning abilities. You think that you were created by an intelligent agent, right? Does this mean that you can only act as “directed” by this intelligent agent, and that you are not intelligent in your own right? I simply was pointing out that existing computers are known to be step-by-step PROGRAMMED entities in their operations, when in 38 I noted that they use the forces and materials of nature As directed by intelligent agents. Computers are not reasoning, they are in principle simple, physically instantiated algorithm executing machines. Humans by contrast, are routinely experienced as and observed to be conscious and independent thinkers capable of not just surprising but actually creative decisions that on reflection can be seen to be rational but are utterly unexpected and can come out of "nowhere" to utterly break through a situation. That is what transformational, inspired leadership is about. Indeed, going back to the search space analogy, we can come up with solutions that are so way out of the beaten paths int he config spaces that we have excellent reason to see that fundamentally random forces would have long since been stumped to find such creative and effective configurations. The random walk and hill climbing algors beloved of optimisers would simply not be able -- on probabilistic resources exhausrtion reasons -- to come even close enough to get a little rise out of the hill of functionality. Big difference. BIG difference. Huge . . . That brings us back to [and note my habit of attribution, kindly, JT] . . . 5] in re JT 61: Of course, Dembski doesn’t believe machines can make choices. But certainly programs take alternate courses of action based on A) external conditions, B) the instructions they contain, and C) possibly some saved internal state. To me anyway, this is collectively a working definition of choice . . . . Now suppose I asked you, “Why did you turn around and walk the other way just now.” Your response is, “I decided to.” And I say, “No but why did you do it.” And you reply, “I am an intelligent agent, I made a choice - its what intelligent agents do.” I persist, but you reply, “I have free choice. I chose to walk the other way.” This continues until I give up and never speak to you again, concluding that you are perverse, insane, hold a grudge against me for some unknown reason, or all of the above. See the problem? I repeat: intelligent agents are CREATIVE problem solvers, who can pull a solution that is unanticiapted by and beyond the credible reach of any random or deterministic search process, out of the thin air of the real quasi--infinite cosmos: the world of ideas and configurations, so to speak. Indeed, predictability and routineness are the bane of merely technically proficient strategists: if I can predict you, I can counter you five moves ahead of time! The breakthroughs come from the REAL strategists, who, when you lock them up to two choices, equally deleterious, invariably pick the third choice -- the one that comes out of "nowhere" and transforms the situation. [Source: Napoleon.] And WD's use of CSI is pointing straight to that issue. (Cf. C S Lewis and many others on that point and its implications. And, BTW, storage media have nothing to do with creative use of what is stored.) Bottomline: A REASON IS NOT A CAUSE. Agents think, decide and act; they are self-directed, self-determined, not the toys of the forces and marterials of nautre. This is experientially and self-evidently true -- and is the foundation of our ability to think and communicate rationally. And if you cannot see the self-referential incoherence and absurdities that stem from the rejection of this self-evident truth, you cannot be helped by reason. But we onlookers can note that your irrationality leads you to absurdities, and see its likely roots in naturalistic metaphysics and its deleterious influences in the academy. 6] BarrA, 64: With God there is a third possibility besides being created and self-creation that you apparantly fail to see. God is “uncreated.” He is the uncaused first cause. Yes, as the necessary, thus uncaused, indestructible, etc, being whose necessity is the foundation to the contingency of the observed cosmos. But then, as PK4 aplty remarks on . . .
aiguy, explain the logical distinction between an Intelligent Designer who was not created and did not create itself, which you refer to as “an obvious impossibility,” and matter and energy which were not created and did not create themselves. Arguing creation by means of a Big Bang merely pushes the causal chain back to a singularity and requires an explanation for the singularity. Why is one scenario an obvious impossibility and the other not? Are matter and energy eternal? That sounds like a divine attribute. On what basis did you pick your poison?
. . . we are astonishingly philosophically illiterate in our generation. No prizes for guessing why. GEM of TKI
kairosfocus
January 9, 2008
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StephenB, I'm not willing to acknowledge the self-evident principles of right reason? Do you think you could manage a more comically pompous response? You actually seem to believe you have solved the problems of epistemology, and everyone on Earth who might see things differently is not only wrong, but unable to even have a "rational discussion"! Perhaps a short course in humility might improve your debating skills. In addition, you might want to address my reply to your questions - you did ask, after all. Instead, you caricature my beliefs as "embracing a philosophy that reduces design to a subjective mental construct", and accuse me of being "agnostic about rationality itself". None of this is true, and I didn't say any of it. You need to read what I wrote, and if you don't understand something, ask me what I meant. It is only that way that these debates can proceed. Your arrogant posturing is what prevent progress, of course.aiguy
January 9, 2008
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As this thread confirms once again, it is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone who is not willing to acknowledge the self-evident principles of right reason. Until we acknowledge the real epistemological crisis visited on us by Immanual Kant, which goes by the name of nominalism, we will continue to have these kinds of discussions. As long as our partners in dialogue cannot bring themselves to realize that the images in their mind correspond to universal realities outside the mind, they will simply go on being agnostic about everything--- minds, causation, design inferences--- even rationality itself. We must address what Adler calls, "the little error in the beginning." You can't persuade critics to accept the science of intelligent design if they aready embrace a philosophy that reduces design to a subjective mental construct which, by definition, rules out design inference even before the investigation begins. As long as the investigator intrudes on the investigation, no progress can be made.StephenB
January 9, 2008
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StephenB, Most people describe dualism as a composite of material and non-material. Inasmuch as you don’t believe in a non-material Creator, or any of the non-material derivatives [angels, minds, souls etc], how can you claim to be a dualist? I am not a dualist - I simply pointed out that one can be a dualist and an evolutionist without contradiction, which is quite true. When people think about "materialism", I think most have in mind a Laplacian pinball machine of solid matter atoms bouncing off each other. But we have known for a hundred years that this is not the case, and that the stuff of the universe is more strange than we can imagine. Matter is energy... waves are particles... instantaneous action at unlimited distances... maybe time-reversed causality... I call myself a "neutral monist", and what I essentially mean is while I see no reason to multiply ontological categories, the stuff of the universe must be weird enough to accommodate for both what we have learned about (these bizarre quantum events) and also for what we know virtually nothing about from a scientific standpoint: subjective conscious awareness. Perhaps a better name for my view is what folks like Dan Dennett call folks like Colin McGinn and David Chalmers: a mysterian. So does that mean that you have no idea on the matter of free will? Or does it mean that you do have an opinion but you will not share it until science speaks on the issue? When I was a little boy, I would hold my finger in front of my face, relaxed into a crooked position. Periodically, over and over again, I would quickly straighten my finger, intensely introspecting all the while, trying to figure out what I did to cause my finger to move. I came to the conclusion that I became consciously aware of the motion only after the finger had already moved. But I wasn't sure. (Try it yourself!) As an undergraduate, I read about Libet's experiments, which seemed to support this model - "volition" is the actually the feeling of our conscious minds registering (narrating, explaining) our behavior, rather than causing it. After many more studies since then, this is still my best guess, but this is not tantamount to a "materialist" viewpoint! I think that anyone who considers consciousness to be a hard problem (and unsolved), as I do, cannot be accused of blindly adhering to materialist doctrine. At this point, I honestly, truly believe that nobody knows the truth about mind and its essence - consciousness - and I am somewhat sympathetic to those like McGinn who argue that our minds are not capable of understanding these questions or providing answers. I hope he's wrong, though: It could be something like the ideas of Penrose/Hameroff will come to fruition and tell us something substantive about minds, for example.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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pk4_paul, One can construct a reasoned argument for intelligent causality for either the universe or life. It springs forth from the same data available to all. Sound familiar? Familiar? Yes. The argument from design seems reasonable, right up until one begins to actually think carefully about how little we mean by the term "intelligence".aiguy
January 8, 2008
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-----auguy: "However, science has begun to attempt to shed some light on the issue; read about experiments by Libet, Kornhuber, Wegner, and others. No answers from science yet, of course, but it doesn’t look good for the sort of free will religious folks usually imagine…" So does that mean that you have no idea on the matter of free will? Or does it mean that you do have an opinion but you will not share it until science speaks on the issue?StephenB
January 8, 2008
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-----aiguy: "one can be a dualist and and evolutionist without any contradiction." -----aiguy: "What I believe and argue for is that is that referring to the cause of the universe (or of life) as intelligent is unwarranted to the extent it is meaningful, and meaningless to the extent it is warranted. And I am even more certain this is the case when we restrict our discussion to empirically-grounded knowledge." Most people describe dualism as a composite of material and non-material. Inasmuch as you don't believe in a non-material Creator, or any of the non-material derivatives [angels, minds, souls etc], how can you claim to be a dualist?StephenB
January 8, 2008
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aiguy: What I believe and argue for is that is that referring to the cause of the universe (or of life) as intelligent is unwarranted to the extent it is meaningful, One can construct a reasoned argument for intelligent causality for either the universe or life. It springs forth from the same data available to all. Sound familiar?pk4_paul
January 8, 2008
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pk4_paul, aiguy, explain the logical distinction between an Intelligent Designer who was not created and did not create itself, which you refer to as “an obvious impossibility,” and matter and energy which were not created and did not create themselves. Arguing creation by means of a Big Bang merely pushes the causal chain back to a singularity and requires an explanation for the singularity. Why is one scenario an obvious impossibility and the other not? Are matter and energy eternal? That sounds like a divine attribute. On what basis did you pick your poison? As I tried to make clear, I honestly have not picked any of these "poisons". I'm confident that nobody has any idea how the universe began, or if it began (Big Bang theory does not entail that matter/energy had a beginning). What I believe and argue for is that is that referring to the cause of the universe (or of life) as intelligent is unwarranted to the extent it is meaningful, and meaningless to the extent it is warranted. And I am even more certain this is the case when we restrict our discussion to empirically-grounded knowledge.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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aiguy: We can both posit uncaused entities. I can posit an uncaused, ordered universe, and you posit an uncaused, intelligent being who then causes the universe. Neither of us can explain how or why, but at least I have one less thing to account for. Not much of a consolation for an empiricist. The important difference between you and me is this: I do not pretend to understand how either the universe or life got started, and you do. That would be empirically relevant if the understanding were based on experimental claims. Since they are not, you are left to theological jousting if that is where you wish to go.pk4_paul
January 8, 2008
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StephenB, The question of free will is ancient and empirically unresolved, still firmly in the realm of philosophy and theology and not science. However, science has begun to attempt to shed some light on the issue; read about experiments by Libet, Kornhuber, Wegner, and others. No answers from science yet, of course, but it doesn't look good for the sort of free will religious folks usually imagine...aiguy
January 8, 2008
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aiguy: Yes, that is what I think. This is opposed to those who believe that there exists an “Intelligent Designer”, and that the Intelligent Designer was not created and did not create itself (an obvious impossibility), and that this Intelligent Designer “Just happened”, and just happened to have the means to create the universe. aiguy, explain the logical distinction between an Intelligent Designer who was not created and did not create itself, which you refer to as "an obvious impossibility," and matter and energy which were not created and did not create themselves. Arguing creation by means of a Big Bang merely pushes the causal chain back to a singularity and requires an explanation for the singularity. Why is one scenario an obvious impossibility and the other not? Are matter and energy eternal? That sounds like a divine attribute. On what basis did you pick your poison?pk4_paul
January 8, 2008
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BarryA, With God there is a third possibility besides being created and self-creation that you apparantly fail to see. God is “uncreated.” He is the uncaused first cause. We can both posit uncaused entities. I can posit an uncaused, ordered universe, and you posit an uncaused, intelligent being who then causes the universe. Neither of us can explain how or why, but at least I have one less thing to account for. The important difference between you and me is this: I do not pretend to understand how either the universe or life got started, and you do.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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-----Junkyard Tornado writes," So I cannot even comprehend what ID’ists mean by something that is not operating according to law, So how can they consider it axiomatic." Do you believe in a free will that can, though limited by congenital, behavioristic, and psyshodynamic forces, nevertheless express itself and change the course of events in some way? In other words, do you believe in a non-material mind and will independent of the same physical laws of cause and effect that the brain is subject to?StephenB
January 8, 2008
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aiguy writes: "This is opposed to those who believe that there exists an “Intelligent Designer”, and that the Intelligent Designer was not created and did not create itself (an obvious impossibility)" With God there is a third possibility besides being created and self-creation that you apparantly fail to see. God is "uncreated." He is the uncaused first cause.BarryA
January 8, 2008
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BarryA, aiguy, there are a group of people who believe the universe was not created and did not create itself (an obvious impossibility). They are apparantly believe it “just happened.” Yes, that is what I think. This is opposed to those who believe that there exists an "Intelligent Designer", and that the Intelligent Designer was not created and did not create itself (an obvious impossibility), and that this Intelligent Designer "Just happened", and just happened to have the means to create the universe. I tend to call these people "ID proponents" (but they are hard for me to differentiate from theists). I tend to call these people “materialists.” This would be a mistake, then; for example, one can be a dualist and and evolutionist without any contradiction.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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Here’s my take on the Galileo vs ID analogy. I. BarryA, rockyr, and Jerry all seem to agree on the facts of history. The politically correct account of the Galileo affair is way off. The problem is one of intepretation. What we must do is rephrase the question of blame : In terms of their moral integrity----- (1) Was the pope [a]free of fault, [b] slightly wrong [c]moderately wrong, [d] very wrong, or [e] outrageously wrong. (2) Was Galileo [a] free of fault, [b] slightly wrong, [c] moderately wrong, [d] very wrong, or [e] outrageously wrong? My personal answer would be (1) [b] and (2) [d] Bottom Line: mild persecution. II. Now apply this formula to the Academy vs. Intelligent Design. My personal answer is this: The academy [e] vs. Intelligent Design [a] Bottom Line: heavy persecution. III. However, although history suggests that the analogy {Church vs Galileo = Academy vs ID} is somewhat unfair, good strategy suggests that we ought to use it anyway. Here’s why: [a] Politically correct history has caused everyone to react viscerally and emotionally to Galileo as a victim. Everyone, neo-Darwinists, ID advocates, and the general public understands the significance of the drama--- pitting old Ideologies against new ideas. [b] The irony of using the academy’s politically-correct anti-Catholic interpretation of history against them is just too sweet to pass up. Since the academy hates the Catholic Church even more than they hate ID, the analogy drives them insane. This is rhetorical judo--- we use the weight of academy’s own prejudices against them. [c] We can and should recognize that we are doing a trade off here. The Catholic Church establishment was nowhere near as outrageous as the Darwinist establishment. In a sense, we are helping to perpetuate an anti-Catholic myth by implying a moral equivalency between the Catholic Church and the Darwinist establishment. We should be prepared to qualify this matter once the point about persecution has been dramatized. The Catholic church deserves to be the beneficiary of truth as much as ID does. HOWEVER, we are the underdogs in this fight and it is important that the general public knows it. The movie “expelled” will help, but it will soon be forgotten. What will never be forgotten is the ancient story of one man who, right or wrong, evokes images of unjust persecution. Whether fair or unfair, apt or inappropriate, STORIES WIN THE DAY even when all other forms of communication fail. Once the analogy has done its job, however, we should hasten to say that the Church has been given a bad rap. Inasmuch as most people already assume the lie going in, they will react to the analogy. We can allow them to react and then explain that there is no moral equivalency between the Catholic Church and the Darwinist establishment. If we are not willing to walk that fine line, we shouldn't raise the issue at all.StephenB
January 8, 2008
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(Kairosfocus:) "mind is SELF-determining, i.e we have the power of intelligent choice. [Notice, a cause does not have to pre-exist its effect, it can be simultaneous with it.] On that, we can explain and understand much. Mind is not determined by mater or other minds, through it may be influenced and affected by them. That comports with our experience of being agents who make up our own minds." In my haste I missed some closing comments from your previous post you made to me including the above. The following is from an old post I made on another site (under a different handle): ------------------------------ ...Now supposing we were trying to determine why a computer program (i.e. mechanism) made a choice. Of course, Dembski doesn't believe machines can make choices. But certainly programs take alternate courses of action based on A) external conditions, B) the instructions they contain, and C) possibly some saved internal state. To me anyway, this is collectively a working definition of choice. At any rate, if we wanted to determine why a program decided to write to some file, and we didn't know why, we might step through it one instruction at a time in a debugger, until we encountered a statement like, "if (n==nLastDay) {file = fopen(szDout,"wb"); fwrite(file,Data)} Then, we would know why the program "decided" to write to the file. Now suppose I asked you, "Why did you turn around and walk the other way just now." Your response is, "I decided to." And I say, "No but why did you do it." And you reply, "I am an intelligent agent, I made a choice - its what intelligent agents do." I persist, but you reply, "I have free choice. I chose to walk the other way." This continues until I give up and never speak to you again, concluding that you are perverse, insane, hold a grudge against me for some unknown reason, or all of the above. At any rate, I don't deal with people who do things for no reason. OTOH, if you had replied to begin with, "I saw a dog coming and I'm afraid of dogs.", then I would have my answer. Your answer could of course be broken down to a level of physical causation, i.e. you had some memory of dogs in your brain. That memory was stored in a definite physical manner, related to the chemistry and physiology of the brain. Then you saw a dog just now. If you did not have the ability to see you would not have seen the dog and you would have not walked the other way. Sight is a physiological process. It can be explicated, like a program. Everything regarding your decision to walk the other way could be broken down and explicated in terms of a mechanism. Even if at the last moment you decided not to walk away, that decision would have a reason. If there was truly no explanation for your actions, that would apparently indicate to Dembski you were intelligent. Essentially any entity that has a coherent description is a mechanism. If you do things for a reason, react to the external world in a potentially explicable way, then you are a mechanism. There is simply no other coherent view on the topic.JunkyardTornado
January 8, 2008
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Dear Barry: Modesty is to be commended; but if there is a "category error," then why do you compare Neo-Darwinism to Ptolemy? Are you so modest that you don't recognize the larger implications of this comparison? My good friend, that is carrying modesty too far.allanius
January 8, 2008
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aiguy, there are a group of people who believe the universe was not created and did not create itself (an obvious impossibility). They are apparantly believe it "just happened." They acknowledge, as they must, that this "just happened" universe is astonishingly fine tuned for the existence of life. The believe this fine tuning "just happened" too. They believe that the staggeringly complex nano-machines in the cell "just arose" through chance and necessity. Finally, they belive that the immense amount of information in the DNA molecule "just arose" too. I tend to call these people "materialists." Perhaps we should coin a new term. Let's call them the JHJA's, which stands for "Just Happened and Just Arose" and is pronounced Jah Jah. ;-)BarryA
January 8, 2008
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BarryA, You say you agree with everything but we seem to "agree to disagree." If you don't want to pursue this, that's fine, but I am just trying to reply to the main point your whole analogy: "Consider: Is Richard Dawkins analogous to Pope Urban VIII? Are Dembski and Behe the new Copernicus and Galileo?" You say you had fun writing it, and I am enjoying playing along with it, but we don't really want to be flippant about the real persecution of ID, do we? Now, one can be polite about such a comparison, and say it is not bad etc., but there are real differences. And if we want to come up with a really good analogy, we need to consider what really happened with Galileo and why he was disciplined, and how the current ID situation is similar or different from your analogy. We both know about and pretty much agree about the persecution of ID, but there was a real and not-funny disinformation campaign launched after the Galileo case, culminating with Brecht's nonsense, which is today still propagated as truth. Just as in the case of Darwin, the real truth about Galileo is slowly coming to the surface, but it will take time until the popular myths are dispelled, and if we want to use such analogies, we better know what they really represent. Yes, Galileo was disciplined, and he obviously went along, whether agreeably or grudgingly, but his "imprisonment" was more like a Club-Med retirement resort with full service and health care than being tortured and thrown into a dark dungeon. It is precisely the lack of the of the "greater good", as you put it, which Urban was trying to preserve, which is biting us today -- an almost total anarchy of thought and reason.rockyr
January 8, 2008
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SteveB: "I read a lawyer complaining about another discipline’s “almost impenetrable thicket of jargon." Who was it who said: "All professions are conspiracies against the laity?" He was not far off. ;-)BarryA
January 8, 2008
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nullasalus, Very good, yes. As it happens, I am not a materialist (rather, a fully uncommitted neutral monist), nor do I believe that evolutionary theory fully accounts for biological complexity. But I am usually called a "materialist" in these discussions (kairosfocus just called me that) simply because I do not happen to think that ID is a scientifically non-vacuous candidate explanation of biological facts. I think ID proponents need to stop using "materialist" as an all-purpose epithet, synonymous with atheist, evolutionist, liberal, moron and other terms that are completely orthogonal to materialism.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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"Materialists" happen to come in quite a variety insofar as philosophy goes - there are reductionists, eliminativists, emergence theorists.. even property dualists could conceivably be considered materialists to a point. The idea that no materialist has been ideaologically driven to reject basic immaterial concepts is a bit misleading. At the very least, it's very much an open issue. Now, I don't think every materialist explains away ideas, or energy. Probability waves, quite possibly. But I do think that once a materialist takes an anti-reductionist or similar stance, it's very close to admitting that materialism provides an incomplete view of the world.nullasalus
January 8, 2008
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geoffrobinson, What you have proven is that "materialists", as you conceive of them, do not exist. Nobody is forgetting that ideas aren't matter. "Energy" is not matter either, nor "quantum probability waves", yet "materialist" physicists do not eschew the concept out of ideological prejudice. What you call "materialists" are simply us folks that would like to know something about what we are talking about before we admit it as a scientific explanation of something - that's all.aiguy
January 8, 2008
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