Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Everything You Believe Is Based on Personal Experience and Testimony

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In other threads, certain people have claimed that personal experience and testimony are not as valid as other forms of evidence. In fact, some would dismiss thousands of years and the accumulation of perhaps billions of witness/experiencer testimonies because, in their view, personal experience and testimony is not really even evidence at all.

The problem with this position is that everything one knows and or believes is gained either through  (1) personal experience (and extrapolation thereof), or (2) testimony (and examination thereof), for the simple fact that if you did not experience X, the only information you can possibly have about X is from the testimony of others.

In a courtroom, for example, the entire case depends on testimony, even when there is physical evidence, because the jury relies upon the testimony of those that produce and explain what the physical evidence is, how it is relevant, and explains why it is important to the case. Unless the jurors are swabbing cheeks and conducting DNA tests themselves, the DNA evidence is in principle nothing more than the testimony of an expert witness. The jurors have no means of ascertaining the DNA “facts” for themselves; they entirely rely upon the testimony of what they assume to be a highly credible witness.

When a gun is entered into evidence, it is a meaningless fact – it’s a gun. The jurors rely entirely upon the testimony of law officers to inform them where the gun was found, if it was the right caliber, who owned it, etc. All of that information is presented through testimony.

Further, establishing motive and opportunity are forms of logical arguments, established via testimony, which counts as evidence.

Similarly, unless one is a research scientist in fields where one believes certain theories to be valid, he is (and we are as well) entirely dependent upon testimonial evidence – found in the form of research papers, books and articles written by such scientists. “Peer review” is nothing more to the reader than the testimomy of supposedly credible sources that the testimony of the authors is not blatantly false or contain factual errors.

Outside of what we personally experience, virtually all of our knowledge comes from testimony delivered via some form of media or another. We consider the source of the testimony, and the media it is delivered through, credible or non-credible to one degree or another – but that doesn’t change the fact that when we read or hear it, it is nothing more than testimony. If you are a scientist conducting research, you are personally experiencing the process and accumulation of data.  Beyond that, it is only testimony to others unless they perform the same experiments.  Often, the conclusions of scientific research hinge upon the testimony of other researchers, which may turn out to be fraudulent or mistaken.

So, when anyone says that testimony and personal experience are dismissible forms of evidence, they are obviously using (consciously or not) selective (and logically incoherent) hyperskepticism against an unwanted idea, because everything any of us believe or call ‘knowledge” is gained/extrapolated (hopefully using logic and logical arguments) via personal experience and/or information gained via testimony.

Comments
As Mark Frank points out, everything you believe is indeed based on your personal experience or testimony. But not all testimony is equal. In a criminal trial, if one witness testifies they saw the accused commit the offense while another testifies the accused was with them elswhere at the time the offense was committed, clearly both cannot be right. How do we decide between them? Many people have testified they saw Uri Geller bend spoons by just stroking them with his finger or Harry Houdini make an elephant disappear. Are these sufficient evidence to compel a belief in supernatural powers or miracles? Or could there be more mundane explanations? Could it be that one of the roots of what we now call science lies in a need to find a way to discriminate between all these stories, this personal testimony, and get to the truth of the matter? If there are accounts from around 2000 years ago concerning the son of a local carpenter in Nazareth who became an itinerant preacher, that he gathered a small band of followers and toured around the Galilee region in the Middle East, that he spoke to crowds large and small, that he fell foul of local religious and political machinations, that he was arrested on trumped-up charges and executed by crucifixion, I would have no problem believing that happened. It does not stretch credulity. If the accounts also tell us that he turned water into wine, fed a crowd of 5000 with a couple of loaves and a few fish, that he walked on water, that he raised the dead, that he himself rose from the dead then I would need more than just those accounts to convince me that those events occurred and that they were supernatural in origin. The vast body of testimony concerning religious beliefs over thousands of years is certainly indicative of some phenomenon in play. But they attest not to one faith or one god but to a wide range of beliefs and a wide range of gods. Are they all true? Are any of them true? How do you tell? Is it reasonable to suspend judgment until more evidence becomes available if you find existing accounts intriguing but but not compelling?Seversky
April 7, 2015
April
04
Apr
7
07
2015
02:47 AM
2
02
47
AM
PDT
also, it occurs to me, that to some extant our belief systems may be formed for us by accidents in our pre-verbal environments. Our basic manner of neuro-biological mediation of sense data likely shapes our realities in ways we can't easily change or comprehend. These accidents, or chance encounters at critical moments of imprint vulnerability can severely limit our options regarding belief construction. In other words, no matter how much evidence (or lack) we are given for the existence of a thing, unless we have the framework to support it, it will fall through the cracks like so much dust. I am heartened to think that we may be able to reform some of these basic internal structures using any number of a vast array of tested techniques ranging from meditation and yogas to dramatic mental and physical therapies and beyond. I mention this mostly as a reminder to us (myself especially) that unconscious bias and pre-verbal psychological infrastructure might play a role in what we allow ourselves to believe at any given timeJD Welbel
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
11:54 PM
11
11
54
PM
PDT
Everything you believe is indeed based on your personal experience or testimony. It does not follow that testimony is always good grounds for belief. It depends on many things but most importantly the process that lies behind the testimony - the credibility of the person giving the testament and how they came to their conclusions. That is why it is still a good objection to dismiss something as mere testimony.Mark Frank
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
11:52 PM
11
11
52
PM
PDT
BA77 #13 Aside from your mixing confusing probability and statistics you seem determined to interpret my comments to your own end. Further discussion on the matter seems pointless. Cross #16 I would not say there is a 'theory' of a multiverse. I'm not sure there is even a decent hypothesis yet. People are tossing ideas about and looking for confirming data. I would say that kind of speculation and testing is science because all scientific theories go through that stage before becoming established. IF they become established. I remain highly skeptical of a multiverse. I'm waiting to see if they come up with real supporting data and results.Jerad
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
10:39 PM
10
10
39
PM
PDT
What is more interesting is that my personal experience is, in many cases, solidly contrary to the testimony of my college textbooks. For me, personal experience solidly trumps testimony.bFast
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PDT
WJM, more excellent work. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
09:19 PM
9
09
19
PM
PDT
As to the superiority of 'personal experience'. Decartes infamously stated, 'I think, therefore I am.' The reason he stated this was because he could reasonably doubt the reality of everything else but he could not doubt the fact that he himself had doubted material reality:
"Descartes remarks that he can continue to doubt whether he has a body; after all, he only believes he has a body as a result of his perceptual experiences, and so the demon could be deceiving him about this. But he cannot doubt that he has a mind, i.e. that he thinks. So he knows he exists even though he doesn’t know whether or not he has a body." http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/philosophy/downloads/a2/unit4/descartes/DescartesDualism.pdf
Alvin Plantinga has an interesting, and humorous, twist on Decartes's line of thought, in that he employs the modal argument to prove he has a mind separate from his material brain by imagining that he has a 'beetle body':
Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0
I think our own William J. Murray has done a better job articulating the insurmountable problem for materialists in regards to explaining mind than anyone else I have read on the subject:
"In any philosophy of reality that is not ultimately self-defeating or internally contradictory, mind – unlabeled as anything else, matter or spiritual – must be primary. What is “matter” and what is “conceptual” and what is “spiritual” can only be organized from mind. Mind controls what is perceived, how it is perceived, and how those percepts are labeled and organized. Mind must be postulated as the unobserved observer, the uncaused cause simply to avoid a self-negating, self-conflicting worldview. It is the necessary postulate of all necessary postulates, because nothing else can come first. To say anything else comes first requires mind to consider and argue that case and then believe it to be true, demonstrating that without mind, you could not believe that mind is not primary in the first place." - William J. Murray
In a development that would have pleased Decartes very much, material reality has now been demoted by quantum mechanics as being merely derivative, secondary to mind, and even being called an 'illusion' by many leading experts in quantum mechanics:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the originator of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries' Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Violated, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Moreover, for those who still demand experimental evidence to know that mind is primary and material reality is secondary, there is plenty of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics confirming what is intuitively obvious, i.e. that consciousness precedes material reality
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
Quote, Verse and Music:
"Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am.' My bet is that God replied, 'I am, therefore think.'" Art Battson - Access Research Group John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Phillips, Craig & Dean - Great I Am (Lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_VR-zwp2KA
bornagain77
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
Neil Rickert @ 17 "If credibility can be sufficiently increased, then it becomes evidence and not merely testimony." Interesting, then what is the measurable "credibility factor" that once reached, turns mere testimony into evidence? CheersCross
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PDT
The inclusion of an expert and the promise of repeatability doesn’t change testimony into something else categorically; it just means that some forms of testimonial evidence are (1) more credible or (2) more convincing than others – as I said.
Increasing credibility is important. If credibility can be sufficiently increased, then it becomes evidence and not merely testimony.Neil Rickert
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT
Jerad @ 6 "Science is about measurable, repeatable, witness independent results that can be reliably assumed to occur." So you would confirm that "multiverse" is not science, but interestingly, is a theory given to explain away the fine tuning of our universe for life, which is measurable. CheersCross
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
Material basis BA77? 50/50 imo. Randomly? Zero have to agree. Really, you have to. Not "have to" because of determinism, but "have to" because of logic, rationality, and Love. Heck, the statistical likelihood of our Universe existing is more than 10 raised to the 500 against. Human consciousness is icing on the Impossible Cake.ppolish
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
To try to bring the thread back to the topic of the OP, what is the 'statistical' likelihood of human intelligence and consciousness randomly evolving from a material basis? I put the statistical likelihood at zero, how about you?bornagain77
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
So Jerad, since you can make 'statistical arguments' in favor of evolution then, according to you, that makes the materialistic origin, and evolution, of life science and makes invoking miracles for the origin and diversification of life not science? A couple of problems with your statistical definition of science. When we analyze the Origin of Life and Darwinian evolution 'statistically' we find both to be false. The Origin of Life is so fantastically improbable, 'statistically', that the human mind can't even realistically imagine the unlikeliness of it (1 in 10^40,000 conservatively!). As for the evolution of life after its origin, when we analyze neo-Darwinism statistically it is also found to be false.
Biological Information – Loss-of-Function Mutations by Paul Giem 2015 – video playlist (Behe – Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ
So under you definition of science, (which I am willing to accept in this limited case), Darwinism and the materialistic origin of life or both found to be false. Why do you not accept the statistical falsifications? Another problem with your 'statistical' definition of science is that the Big Bang was a once in history event and thus can't be realistically analyzed 'statistically' and thus fails to be 'science' under your definition. Moreover, whenever we do try to statistically analyze the likelihood of the Big Bang happening, 'randomly', we find that materialism winds up in epistemological failure:
Multiverse and the Design Argument - William Lane Craig Excerpt: Roger Penrose of Oxford University has calculated that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1 in 10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a multiverse of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. For example, the odds of our solar system’s being formed instantly by the random collision of particles is about 1 in 10^10(60), a vast number, but inconceivably smaller than 1 in 10^10(123). (Penrose calls it “utter chicken feed” by comparison [The Road to Reality (Knopf, 2005), pp. 762-5]). Or again, if our universe is but one member of a multiverse, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses’ popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities’ falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those strange worlds are simply much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but a random member of a multiverse of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On naturalism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no multiverse. — Penrose puts it bluntly “these world ensemble hypothesis are worse than useless in explaining the anthropic fine-tuning of the universe”. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/multiverse-and-the-design-argument The Fine Tuning of the Universe - drcraigvideos - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpIiIaC4kRA The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory and The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video http://vimeo.com/34468027 The End Of Materialism? - Dr. Bruce Gordon * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as a explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible. BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Why do you not accept that statistical falsification Jerad?bornagain77
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
03:25 PM
3
03
25
PM
PDT
The origin of life on earth is a non-repeatable event. No one witnessed it. There's no direct evidence that it ever occurred.Silver Asiatic
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
bornagain77: Thus, according to your definition, since we can’t reliably induce evolution then evolution is not science? You can't rewind the dice rolls at a craps table, but the long-term profit margin of a casino has little to do with luck, and much to do with having a sufficient volume of customers to cover the overhead.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PDT
ba77 #9
Thus, according to your definition, since we can’t reliably induce evolution then evolution is not science?
Not at all. You can only generally predict the weather tomorrow but clearly climatology is a science. If a model has some random variation built in then you cannot rewind and expect to get the same outcome. I’m sure you probably disagree now that you see evolution falls outside of science by your own definition, but, why are Darwinists allowed to appeal to unrepeatable ‘random’ events in history to explain the origin of life, and Theists aren’t allowed to appeal to unrepeatable ‘miracles’ in history to explain the origin of life? When you can make some statistical arguments regarding theological events then your comparison might have some merit. The randomness in evolution is restricted to genetic variation not other general principles. You are oversimplifying the discussion.Jerad
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
Jerad at 6 states: "but not science if you can’t induce it reliably." So, in your book, something is 'not science if you can’t induce it reliably'? What is that quote from Gould?
"if we could somehow "rewind the tape" of evolution and let it play again, chance would favor a different selection of that original multitude, and the world would be a very different place from the one we see around us. There is nothing "preordained" about the appearance of humanity or the human level of awareness" Gould
Thus, according to your definition, since we can't reliably induce evolution then evolution is not science? I'm sure you probably disagree now that you see evolution falls outside of science by your own definition, but, why are Darwinists allowed to appeal to unrepeatable 'random' events in history to explain the origin of life, and Theists aren't allowed to appeal to unrepeatable 'miracles' in history to explain the origin of life?
Pauli’s ideas on mind and matter in the context of contemporary science - Harald Atmanspacher Excerpt: “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/paulijcs8.pdf Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness – Talbott – Fall 2011 Excerpt: In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness
bornagain77
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
indeed, at some level all belief appears to be essentially the same, at least in principal. At some point, whether one has amassed a wealth of validating evidence for their worldview or simply believes it, no holds barred, it seems to me there is a "leap of faith" necessary to complete the circuit. It is due to this apprehension, for one, that I try to view all belief system with equal respect as well as skepticism. Of course, some belief systems are repellent to me, some, I find downright frightening, still, I see value in trying to understand them. Somewhere along the line, I convinced myself that it would be more useful to model metaphysical beliefs as disposable, recyclable, "single-use"; in general, believing in anything for only as long as it suited or served me. This still makes sense to me, as, if I am certain about anything, it is that I still have a great deal to learn about pretty much everything.JD Welbel
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
01:01 PM
1
01
01
PM
PDT
Neil Rickert said:
Expert testimony is different. The experts are not simply reporting personal subjective experience. Rather, they are reporting what can be tested and either confirmed or refuted by other experts. It is that potential repeatability that makes the important difference.
"Reporting" = "testifying". Apples, apples. The inclusion of an expert and the promise of repeatability doesn't change testimony into something else categorically; it just means that some forms of testimonial evidence are (1) more credible or (2) more convincing than others - as I said. If one wishes to dismiss all testimonial evidence, they are essentially taking everything except that which they personally experience off the table. That includes all published science papers as well as the Bible, news reports, history books, etc.William J Murray
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
tjguy #2
Science is presented as the ultimate arbiter of truth, but it rests on unprovable assumptions/beliefs such as “any personal testimony/experience having to do with God or the supernatural should be rejected because science cannot verify it.” Or some idea similar to this.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of science regarding religious experiences or in general. Science is about measurable, repeatable, witness independent results that can be reliably assumed to occur. If someone says: I can predict the value of a hidden playing card at a greater rate than given by chance and has done so on a given occasion then I'm not terribly interested in disproving that particular event as I am to see if they can replicate that achievement under controlled conditions on demand (or given set protocols). A miracle that can be predictably made to occur is part of science and will be studied and examined. Without repeatability reported events are interesting . . . maybe a suggestion of a line of possible research, like near death experiences . . . but not science if you can't induce it reliably. That doesn't mean such experiences aren't valid in a moral or psychological sense. I completely understand why folks who go through a near death experience feel that it's a consciousness changing event even while I don't believe it's an indication of a soul or consciousness surviving after death. Science is a good arbitrator of physical truth. What causes what. It is not meant to dictate your personal and emotional decisions.Jerad
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
10:07 AM
10
10
07
AM
PDT
Apples and oranges. I cannot have your experiences. I can only have my own experiences. This is why your testimony about your experience is not of great evidential value to me. Expert testimony is different. The experts are not simply reporting personal subjective experience. Rather, they are reporting what can be tested and either confirmed or refuted by other experts. It is that potential repeatability that makes the important difference.Neil Rickert
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
When you get right down to it, all evidence is a subset of personal experience - even testimony arrives through ones personal experience of others telling them something. All other kinds of evidence would be subsets therein; personally conducted/experienced science, or science that arrives via testimony; physical evidence would be the same; etc. The question cannot logically be if testimonial evidence counts, but rather can only be that testimonial evidence must be evaluated according to the credibility of those who are testifying and also according to how the testimony fits in with other personal experience. The problem is that materialists/atheists are not actually sorting evidence according to the actual type. They use these terms in value-laden, misleading context to create a false sense that these kinds of evidence are distinctly separate and of highly disparate value, when in fact it all ultimately boils down to personal experience and testimony. They apply the term "testimony" and "personal experience" to denigrate that evidence which contradicts their bias, ignoring the fact that any evidence they can point to must be subsets of those very categories. Scientific evidence might be recgonized as a more credible form of personal experience/testimonial evidence than other subsets, but it is not a separate category of evidence.William J Murray
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
It is also especially ironic to note that neo-Darwinists have no empirical evidence whatsoever of unguided material processes creating any non-trivial functional information/complexity.
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Biological Information - Loss-of-Function Mutations by Paul Giem 2015 - video playlist (Behe - Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ Where's the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel - 2011 Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_
bornagain77
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
07:49 AM
7
07
49
AM
PDT
Rejecting personal testimony is their only option, but of course, it just doesn't make sense. Not all testimony is equally trustworthy of course, but they have to dismiss the bad with the good in order to maintain their own faith/religion concerning origins. It is their prerogative to reject whatever testimony they want. It may help them feel secure in their beliefs, but this is something they cannot test. It is a choice they must make and hope they are right. And their whole worldview rests on this choice! Science is presented as the ultimate arbiter of truth, but it rests on unprovable assumptions/beliefs such as "any personal testimony/experience having to do with God or the supernatural should be rejected because science cannot verify it." Or some idea similar to this. That's a big gamble in my mind - one that I am not willing to take.tjguy
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
Excellent points. You can also ask those raising that objection whether they have created all their own test equipment and replicated every single experiment upon which they rely. Since no one has done this, you can then point out how they rely on the credibility of eye witnesses all day, every day.homerj1
April 6, 2015
April
04
Apr
6
06
2015
07:09 AM
7
07
09
AM
PDT
1 3 4 5

Leave a Reply