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Evidence: Can we trust traditional texts to be reliable?

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It really depends on how much care has been taken to preserve them.

Recently, Barry Arrington posted on how we can be sure of something (for example, that bin Laden is dead). The burden of proof is on any who might claim otherwise.

For some, the question has arisen whether the oral transmission of the Torah (the books of Moses in Jewish tradition) could be reliable. What about memory lapses, deliberate alterations, etc., especially during the time when oral memory and transmission were normal, alongside scrolls (which were expensive and time-consuming to produce).

Well, I asked the ID community reb, Moshe Averick, author of Nonsense of a High Order: The confused and illusory world of the atheist, how do you know that the Torah goes back to the time of Moses? Here is what he says,

There are many safeguards in Jewish law and practice to preserve the integrity of the Torah scroll. However, the simplest and most obvious evidence of how well the system works, is that after the founding of the State of Israel, Jews from every corner of the world brought their own Torah Scrolls and the ones from Yemen ( whose community was over 2000 years old) matched the ones from Poland. This, despite the fact that there are over 300,000 letters in the Torah.

The scrolls are all handwritten, it is absolutely forbidden to use a printing press to create a Torah scroll, and a new scroll can only be copied from an already existent one. The scroll is read from publicly three times a week, Monday, Thursday and Shabbat. There are no vowels or punctuation in the scroll, if the reader makes a mistake (everyone follows from a printed edition) he is immediately stopped and must repeat the word properly.

If it turns out that there is a mistake in the text, even one letter, it is forbidden to read from it publicly and is immediately put back in the ark with a distinct sign that it is invalid, until it is repaired by a qualified scribe. Unless you have actually seen how quickly the reader is jumped on by the congregation if he makes a mistake, and unless you have actually watched a Torah scroll invalidated in the middle of the service and put back in the ark, it is hard to really understand how exacting this process is.

It is also important to understand the reverence that the community has for the Torah scroll. I’m not talking about orthodox communities, that goes without saying, I’m even talking about the most Reform, liberal congregations. They might eat on Yom Kippur, but no one, and I mean no one messes with a Torah scroll. It would be unthinkable (this is something that can only be known from experience) for the most liberal Reform congregation to write their own version of a Torah scroll, and this is despite the fact that they claim to believe that the whole thing is a bunch of man made myths.

There are 5-6 letter differences between the scroll of the Arab-Jewish communities and the eastern European Jewish communities. These are all letters that are silent in the words, and none change the meaning or pronunciation of a word or phrase. Example: Thouht and Thought , foreign and forein, etc.

Torah scrolls can easily used for up to 100 years, which means that the transmission process really only has to happen 30-40 times. This takes you back over 3000 years to the final writing of the Torah at the end of the 40 years in the desert.

I replied,

It is a good example of the use of an oral tradition to correct a written tradition as well as the durability of a written tradition – if anyone cares about it. Oral traditions are not necessarily so subject to corruption as the original commenter seemed to think. He is confusing situations where no one cares much with ones where they do and must care.Ancient Greek myths of the gods were examples of situations where no one cared much. There were many variant accounts of the soap opera lives of the pagan gods, and the only bottom to the confusion is that a good editor would sometimes fashion an account that – being a good story – would simply get told more often until it became the standard story. Somewhat like one soap opera being way more popular than others, but it was all just nonsense.  Think Homer. That was a Darwinian system! – the story was shaped for fitness, not for truth. Of course, after a while, people got tired of truth-optional religion, which is why you and I are where we are today and the Greek gods are just garden statues somewhere.

Readers, you decide.

Update: Re Dead Sea Scrolls, he also notes: “I is important to know that none of the Dead Sea Scrolls were of the type that are used in a synagogue. In other words they are unauthorized texts written by unknown scribes. It is obvious that in texts like these there will be quite a bit of variation. ”

See also “Detecting authenticity in lack of design. (Note: There, we are talking about authenticity, not conciseness = how inconcision can be a marker for authenticity.)

Comments
Mung since you hold Jesus cannot be wrong; Luke 21:24 “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”bornagain77
May 5, 2011
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I leave you with this link:
With the imminent soon return of the Lord on the horizon and ...
YIKES! They are feeding into the whole frenzy while allegedly preaching against it, lol. How do they know: 1) Christ's return is going to be very soon. 2) prophecy is unfolding before our very eyes. Unless they've done some date calculating of their own? Naughty! Naughty! I leave you with the following:
1[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John, 2Who has testified to and vouched for all that he saw [[b]in his visions], the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed (happy, [c]to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the assemblies] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, [d]to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near.
Now it's one thing for these modern day "prophecy scholars" to be wrong, but it's quite another thing if it is Jesus or John.Mung
May 5, 2011
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Israel becoming a nation again is like the elephant in the living room as far as a backdrop to prophetic scripture is concerned, and should have all Christians ‘watching’ and definitely not sleeping as Jesus sternly warned!
The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. It certainly doesn't provide us with any indication that something is going to happen "soon." And he was talking to his disciples, not us. He told THEM to watch. I won't go off into a cave either, but I will wager everything that I own against the date you've been promoting.
I had to laugh at Edgar Wisenant (Wiseheain’t) who missed 1988, so decided to go for 1989. Whoops! Wrong again.
Yep, I have both those booklets, lol. And why did he think it would be 1988? By adding numbers together, just like ba77. By thinking there was some special significance to 1948. Just like ...
I live real close to Harold Camping country so i’m waiting to see what happens when his dates pass.
And I also have Camping's books. More silliness. Same mistakes. Here, let me explain "the parable" of the fig tree. When it puts out it's leave, you know that summer is near. Just so, when you [Jesus speaking to THE DISCIPLES] see these things begin to come to pass [the things he was telling THEM to watch for] that they would know that it [the destruction of Jerusalem] was near. When? I tell you the truth, before this generation has passed (Matt 24:34). It was all to happen within a generation of Jesus' words, and so it did. And look, all without any magical salad of a few verses from here and a few verses from there and some magical incantations to get the numbers to match up right. Regardless of Newton's eccentricities, ba77 seemed to think I needed to bone up on his writings, and I'm wondering why. What does he think Newton wrote that supports his case? I quoted Newton. If I misquoted him it's simple enough for someone here to refute what I wrote.Mung
May 5, 2011
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MedsRex, I don't know why Camping is making such a big deal about the end. He's an annihilationist, so even if one doesn't repent before May 21st, they have nothing to fear. ;)CannuckianYankee
May 5, 2011
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Hi CY, I live real close to Harold Camping country so i'm waiting to see what happens when his dates pass. He has billboards and print ads everywhere!! Sigh... Oh same here. Like I said BA is doing just fine.MedsRex
May 5, 2011
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Thanks MedRex. I had to laugh at Edgar Wisenant (Wiseheain't) who missed 1988, so decided to go for 1989. Whoops! Wrong again. I don't think BA77 is going in that direction. I appreciate his enthusiasm for prophecy. He knows a lot more than I do.CannuckianYankee
May 5, 2011
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BA, mung, SP and CY: very interesting and enlightening discussion you guys...i have enjoyed it. I, like CanuckianYankee, am somewhere in between in all this. I don't believe BA77 himself is date-setting and is wise enough to know the dangers in that. However, I do believe there are alot of Christians out there who might fall into those traps. So for any onlookers who might be following this discussion and run off to start doing their own "Bible-math" or begin to follow a Date-setter's ministry or teachings I leave you with this link: http://www.christfirstforum.com/date-setting-and-its-dangers-t5661.html It is on the possible dangers of this practice. blessings! Ps Remain watchful.MedsRex
May 5, 2011
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Well, I disagree and feel they (both the 1948 and 2015 prophecies) are not 'tortured' to reflect a preconceived conclusion. But I do admit this particular area, is not nearly as firm as I would like and it is very easy to overstep boundaries. None-the-less, Israel becoming a nation again is like the elephant in the living room as far as a backdrop to prophetic scripture is concerned, and should have all Christians 'watching' and definitely not sleeping as Jesus sternly warned!bornagain77
May 5, 2011
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Here's the link to the free book from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Observations-Prophecies-Daniel-Apocalypse-ebook/dp/B004TQHASG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1304615384&sr=1-5CannuckianYankee
May 5, 2011
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suckerspawn and BA77, I'm kind of in the middle on this one. I'm skeptical like suckerspawn regarding mathematical predictions. Even the Daniel prophecy regarding the first coming of Messiah is interpreted several ways mathematically based on different passages of scripture, and people reach similar conclusions with them. I think it's safe to say that Daniel prophesied the coming of the Messiah to be around the time of Christ. Whether it is mathematically precise to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem, I'm not convinced, but not completely in denial either. I'm open to the possibility that one method of interpretation is preferable over another, and in this case, I haven't decided. I think that the "reunification" of Israel in 1948 IS a significant fulfillment of biblical prophecy; but I have my doubts whether it is precise to a particular timeline: thus, I also have my doubts as to the mathematical exactness of adding 49 solar years to some date in 1967 to reach the conclusion that Jesus will return in 2015 - especially since those mathematical calculations were being heralded prior to 2008, when the very same people making them expected to be raptured some time in 2008. In my view any kind of date setting is dangerous territory; and as suckerpawn pointed out - it led to a significant false prophecy made by a very peculiar American sect in 1914. But I do appreciate that BA77 is not packing his things and heading to a cave near Aspen. My skepticism on these matters stems from much debate with a Christian friend of mine who was heavily into Bible code - the idea that there are specific predictions regarding recent historical events hidden in the bible, and that one can decipher the prophecies by subtracting certain letters from the text; thus combining the remaining letters to form a message. This friend of mine was attempting to spark my interest in this "phenomenon," and was quite insistent that it had significant bearing on my salvation. His insistence on this eventually made me feel so uncomfortable that I had to limit interaction with him. So when suckerspawn says that he/she's a fan of prophecy but not particularly fond of date setting calculations, I'm pretty much with him/her on that. I think there's too much room for error with such calculations, and they really don't contribute to the truthfulness of scripture IMHO, nor to the real teaching of scripture, that we should watch and be prepared, because no-one knows the date or time. Incidentally, I also have a copy of Newton's "Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse." It's available from Amazon for free with Kindle. Newton's observations are filled with wild speculation, while his historical analysis is interesting and heavily detailed regarding the feet of iron and clay. But he was apparently and not surprisingly wrong in his conclusions. The ten horns are yet to come (from his perspective), and he has them existing in the kingdoms of the Vandals, Suevians, Visigoths, etc.CannuckianYankee
May 5, 2011
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Ba77 I’m a huge fan of Bible prophecy. Here’s one I like. Deuteronomy 18:15-19. I agree with Peter in Acts 3:22-26. Jesus is the fulfillment. He is the prophet we must listen to, or else. Did the State of Israel in 1948 agree with Peter? Does the State of Israel today? Your source stated God postponed the restoration of Israel, first prophesied for 176 B.C., because Israel had not repented. In 1948, had Israel repented? If the original judgment was for 430 years, why is the curse not 7 x 430? Answer; If you use 7 x 430 you can’t get anywhere near 1948. Someone predicting 1948 ahead of time might have been ridiculed, but afterward would have earned a big ol’ “I told you so”! To my knowledge, that person does not exist. I’m NOT a huge fan of mathematically torturing scripture. Some folks knocked on my door and left me a book titled, “WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH”. When I read your source and the calculations, it reminded me of this book. Their math, applied to prophecy, has Jesus establishing His kingdom in 1914. They state, “DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914.” (p215) Do you believe it?suckerspawn
May 5, 2011
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Mung, it is also interesting to note that none of the three evidences cross referenced the others as a source. i.e. they appear to be independently arrived at!!bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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Well mung, you know certainly well that much has gone on in the past that has severely missed the mark for the second coming of Christ and has misled many people. Causing many people to now scoff at all such 'predictions'. yet even so, I firmly believe, with Israel's return, it is the 'season'! Moreover, as Christians, we are commanded to be wise and 'watch' for his coming. Will September 23, 2015, the Day of Atonement in 2015, be 'the day'??? I can't be for sure (no one can save for God alone) and I certainly don't want to be accused of 'date setting', but there are a couple of other things which 'coincidentally' line up that make me extremely suspicious,,, The following scripture, which Jesus Himself spoke, gives significant weight to the idea that we should start our 'watching' from the time Jerusalem came back into the hands of the Hebrews instead of counting the days from when Israel became a nation. Luke 21:24 "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." and this,,, The Signs of Israel's Rebirth: Lesson 1: The Parable of the Fig Tree Concluding Statement: Now it should also be perfectly clear what the parable of the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse means (Matt 24:32-34). As the disciples were walking into the city on Tuesday morning after Palm Sunday, they noticed that the tree which Jesus had cursed the day before had withered and dried up. Later, on Tuesday evening, when the memory of the withered fig tree was still fresh in their minds, Jesus spoke the parable in question. He said that when the church sees the fig tree leafing out again, it will know that "it is . . . at the doors." The Greek for "it is" can also be translated "he is." In prophecy, "door" is often a symbol for the passageway between heaven and earth (Rev. 4:1). What the parable means, therefore, is that when the nation of Israel revives after its coming disintegration and death in A.D. 70, the return of Christ will be imminent. http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/Israel/Israel1.html This following video gives 'astronomical' weight to the preceding prediction by Sir Isaac Newton of how the 'days of Daniel' are to be counted and is indeed very sobering for it to lands on 'that day': Mark Biltz Talks About The Return Of Christ On Sid Roth - Solar & Lunar Eclipses - 2014 - 2015 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4056071 Here is another 'long count' angle of looking at the 'mathematical' evidence that 'coincidentally' lines up with the year 2015 as well: Do 70 Jubilees predict the end of the world in 2015? Excerpt: The 70 “sevens” in Daniel 9:24 are 70 Jubilee cycles. These 70 Jubilee cycles bring us to the end of the world. When the children of Israel entered Canaan, their promised land, the LORD gave them sabbatical cycles and Jubilee cycles. Sabbatical cycles are 7 years long and Jubilee cycles are 49 years long. Each Jubilee cycle consists of 7 sabbatical cycles. The 50th year is called the Jubilee. Seventy “sevens” = 70 Jubilee cycles 70 x 7 x 7 = 3,430 years Daniel 9:24 Seventy “sevens” are decreed for your people to put an end to sin and to bring in everlasting righteousness. The 70 Jubilee cycles point to the time when God’s people will no longer transgress His law. Eternal righteousness will be brought into their lives. Then Jesus will come to take them to heaven. The 70 Jubilees predict Christ’s second coming. The 70 Jubilees began in 1416 BC when God’s children entered Canaan. The 70 Jubilees will end 3,430 years later in 2015 AD when God’s children will enter heavenly Canaan. (Of note: In Bible prophecy 360 days are used for calculating the length of a year: http://www.360calendar.com/#Part%20One) http://www.markbeast.com/endworld/jubilees-end-world.htm So Mung that is three pieces of evidence that land on that same time frame! Does that mean I going to sell all my stuff and go live in a cave somewhere awaiting Christ's return??? NO!!! But it certainly does have me wisely 'watching' just as we all, as Christians, have been commanded to do!bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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...you get 49 X 360 = 17640 days, which amazingly takes one exactly to September 23, 2015, the Day of Atonement 2015.
LOL! Amazing! IS that the next "rapture" date?Mung
May 4, 2011
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...before you dismiss Isaac Newton’s work on prophecy, perhaps you should take a little closer look at his work on Daniel;
Well, gee. I also happen to have a copy of Newton's Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John. Care to point me to the part where Newton mentions the future state of Israel? But of hte 70 Weeks prophecy he writes:
Thus we have in this short prophecy, a prediction of all the main periods related to the coming of the Messiah; the time of his birth, that of his death, that of the rejection of the Jews, the duration of the Jewish war whereby he caused the city and sanctuary to be destroyed, and the time of his second coming: and so the interpretation here given is more full and complete and adequate to the design, than if we should restrain it to his first coming only, as Interpreters usuallky do.
He also dates the Apocalypse prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, and says much of it has been fulfilled. And he has some choice words for date setters as well.Mung
May 4, 2011
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bornagain77, What "prophetic" event do you think most likely to occur and on what date specifically (or even within a range of dates)? Depending on your choice and range I'll even lay odds.Mung
May 4, 2011
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correction; how much harder do you think it would be for someone to put the two different scriptures together (the punishment scripture to the prophetic scripture) into a convincing case that would be beyond doubt before it actually happened???bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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suckerspawn you also stated: 'If this fulfillment is so “precise”, someone should have figured it out ahead of 1948.' A few probably did figure it out in the quite of their studies, but would anyone listen???, just as you seem to be having a bit of trouble seeing the prophecy now that it is has been fulfilled, even though it is now plain to see, how much harder do you think it would be for someone to put the two different scriptures together (the punishment scripture to the prophetic scripture) into a convincing case that would be beyond doubt??? Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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cmow: "If we have 40 Torah scrolls copied exactly, do we have 40X as much CSI?" 24 Collin 05/04/2011 11:08 am cmow, "There would be no increase in CSI whatsoever." So where does the CSI come from if not from the scrolls and the script? ;)CannuckianYankee
May 4, 2011
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cmow, others, “Well, of course, there’s not old scrolls lying around, because a well-used scroll might fade or wear, and we couldn’t let that happen to the sacred word of G_d, so old scrolls are disposed of." Actually old scrolls aren't exactly disposed of. They're placed in a Genizah. The caves at Qumran functioned as just such a Genizah. The Dead Sea Scrolls are an example of what the Jews did with their scrolls. They placed them in the clay jars to preserve them, because they are the Word of God. One doesn't just dispose of the Word of God, no matter how tattered and worn out. It would not be the least bit surprising if more ancient scrolls such as the DSS are unearthed. There are probably thousands of them buried in the Ancient Near East - and if they are stored in the same manner as the DSS, I dare say that they would be fairly well preserved. The discovery of the DSS came at a time of very prolific skepticism as to the dating of several Old Testament books - especially Daniel, which was at that time believed to be a 2nd Century BC historical work. The traditional date of 6th Century B.C. had been criticized specifically because of prophecies; which were apparently fulfilled - specifically with a very detailed account of the battle of Antiochus Epiphanies in the 11th Chapter. Materialists apparently did not like the idea that an ancient book purporting to be the Word of God could actually make some very accurate historical predictions. Actually the skepticism didn't begin in the 20th Century, but in the 3rd Century with Porphyry, an ancient anti-Christian philosopher. "Porphyry's contention is that the book must have been written in the second century BC, being merely historical narratives, since such long-range prophecies are impossible in his perspective of a closer systemic universe, void of any supernatural intervention. Before this, and for some time after that, the general consensus was that the book was written by Daniel in the sixth century BC, and is the truly inspired prophecy from God (vaticania ante eventu vs. vaticania ex eventu)." http://www.jeramyt.org/papers/daniel.html But Porphyry's skepticism didn't disappear in the 3rd Century - it was revitalized in the 18th, and again in the 20th Centuries: "Then in 1890, Klaus Koch wrote a powerful book denouncing the exilic date of writing (sixth century BC), and proclaiming the Maccabean theory (Ferch, pg. 129). Immediately following him, in 1900, came S.R. Driver's commentary on Daniel, supporting the same theory. Since then, the majority of scholars generally accept the Maccabean theory without much question. However, I will attempt to show that the evidence points to an early date for the writing of Daniel, placing it in the sixth century BC." http://www.jeramyt.org/papers/daniel.html I'm of the opinion that ancient manuscripts are unearthed according to their need by divine intervention. I think that the discovery of the DSS was just such a need and the time was ripe for a dismantling of the new hyper-skepticism regarding the historicity of OT books. The DSS provided a wealth of evidence for the traditional dating. Why? Because of the nature of the DSS scrolls themselves. With the exception of the Essene writings, which are clearly separate from the biblical writings, the scrolls containing scripture, such as Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., were of a more ancient vernacular than that used by the Essenes in their own writings regarding the ruler of righteousness. Daniel is no exception to this. Also, read here: http://www.harvardhouse.com/Daniel_date-written.htm Another interesting and related tidbit: there is an ancient passage of scripture that HAS been preserved on a silver amulet dating from ca. 700 BC. It contains the Aaronic Benediction from Numbers 6:24-26. It's in Paleo-Hebrew script, and not the later Aramaic (square) script, which didn't arise until about 200 years after that period. The practice of preserving scripture on metals rather than on parchment or papyrus was apparently rare. There was a copper (mixed with tin) scroll discovered in Cave 3 at Qumran, which listed hiding places for precious metals throughout Palestine. So it wasn't exactly scripture, but it was found in the same caves as the scripture scrolls. Apparently the use of metals was not a preferred method of transmitting and/or preserving scripture - probably due to the expense, and I would also propose that it wouldn't be practical, since scribes needed their practice - metals would have made them lazy and forgetful of the high calling of carefully preserving the Word of God.CannuckianYankee
May 4, 2011
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Where's Lilith?Joseph
May 4, 2011
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suckerspawn, from your questions, I'm really wondering if you are such a 'big fan' of Bible prophecy. for instance you ask; Why add 390 and 40 to get 430? but the passage itself states; “Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.” Ezekiel 4:4-6 (New Living Translation) the other questions you ask seem rather 'non-fan-like' as well;bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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suckerspawn, Here is a little background information on profound differences of the Northern and Southern kingdoms http://books.google.com/books?id=hWkoFOvbWW4C&pg=PA652&lpg=PA652&dq=northern+kingdom+southern+kingdom+syria&source=bl&ots=-E9DTWoVkG&sig=eZ5WMGldiQLjH-4CTImovh2rDu4&hl=en&ei=2KDBTbPxJ6230QGxh4i3Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=northern%20kingdom%20southern%20kingdom%20syria&f=falsebornagain77
May 4, 2011
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Ba77, I’m a firm believer in Bible prophecy but I’m having a tough time getting my arms around Israel becoming a nation in 1948 as a fulfillment. It seems to me as if someone started with 1948 and looked for numbers in the Bible to force a calculation. If this fulfillment is so “precise”, someone should have figured it out ahead of 1948. Israel, the northern kingdom, went into Assyrian captivity about 720 B.C. Judah, the southern kingdom, went into Babylonian captivity beginning in 606 B.C. and ending in 537 B.C. Why add 390 and 40 to get 430? Why subtract only 70? Israel had been in captivity much longer than 70 years. If the punishment for not repenting was seven times over, why only 7 x 360 and not 7 x 430? When 1948 rolled around, had Israel repented? Or had Israel added to their sins the crucifixion of the Son of God (Acts 2:36)?suckerspawn
May 4, 2011
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cmow, There would be no increase in CSI whatsoever.Collin
May 4, 2011
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If we have 40 Torah scrolls copied exactly, do we have 40X as much CSI?cmow
May 4, 2011
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A few thoughts: 1) Right. AMW -- if having a Torah scroll from 1000 BC is what it would take to prove the Torah’s reliability, then I think you have us. Not even the British Museum has one of those lying around. 2) But, at this point a Torah scribe might get a little perturbed. They would say, “Well, of course, there’s not old scrolls lying around, because a well-used scroll might fade or wear, and we couldn’t let that happen to the sacred word of G_d, so old scrolls are disposed of. And besides, why would you need to keep centuries old scrolls, when I just spent a year of my life painstakingly following a rigid, detailed process for copying all ~305,000 letters accurately.” 3) Regarding the oral tradition prior to Moses. Well, as BA77 alludes to, Jews would consider Moses the ultimate scribe. That is, Moses didn’t have to rely on oral tradition; he just took dictation from God directly. 4) But, let’s assume that the special revelation from God to Moses allowed for sources other than the direct word of God. Why would it all have to be oral tradition? Abraham migrated into Canaan/Palestine from Ur in Mesopotamia around 19th century BC, certainly within the time frame where cuneiform writing was used to record historical events. As a rich merchant-king, couldn’t Abraham have brought with him his family heirloom cuneiform tablets of recorded history? And isn’t it possible, that Moses used something like that as a source? My only point is that oral tradition need not be the only source of historical knowledge available to Moses. 5) FWIW, if you believe the Bible and the life spans of early men, 2000 years of reliably passed on oral tradition is perfectly reasonable. According the Bible, Shem, the son of Noah, was alive when Abraham was a young man. Abraham was Shem’s great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson. It is possible Abraham got a first-hand account of what life was like on the Ark, sitting on the knee of great-grandpa Shem. Shem would have passed on the oral tradition given to him by his father, Noah. In fact, it’s reasonable to think that Shem knew his great-grandfather, Methuselah, who died the year of the Flood. Methuselah was alive at the same time as Adam. Adam, well, he had a first-hand account of everything but the first few “days”. So, 2000+ years from Adam to Abraham. But if we are to believe the Bible, which despite having some life spans that stretch our imagination is internally consistent, then it is conceivable that the game of telephone that took place could involve retelling of first-hand accounts only 3 times!! (Adam to Methuselah; Methusalah to Shem; Shem to Abraham; Abraham writes it down, carries it with him to Canaan, etc…)cmow
May 4, 2011
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And Mung, before you dismiss Isaac Newton's work on prophecy, perhaps you should take a little closer look at his work on Daniel; Sir Isaac Newton's Prediction For The Return Of Christ - Sid Roth - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041154/ "Newton's Riddle" Excerpt: Sid quotes from the book where it explains Newton's calculations of adding 49 years to the June 1967 date. Based on "Newton's riddle" the book says, "Messiah's possible return to earth will be on or before the year 2016." However, that is apparently based on using modern (365-day) years in the calculation. As I pointed out in my e-mail dated February 20, 2008, if you use exactly 49 Jewish (360-day, prophetic) years from the day Israel captured the Temple Mount on June 7, 1967, you get 49 X 360 = 17640 days, which amazingly takes one exactly to September 23, 2015, the Day of Atonement 2015. http://www.prophecyforum.com/bramlett/newtons_riddle.html "Prophetic Perspectives, 2008-2015" - Jim Bramlett Excerpt: For years I have been intrigued with Newton's interpretation of Daniel 9:25 and the 62 weeks and 7 weeks (62 X 7 = 434 years, and 7 X 7 = 49 years), counted "from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem." In his commentary on Daniel, a copy of which I have, Newton wrote that the interpretation of those 69 weeks is usually incorrect, violating the Hebrew language. He said the two numbers should not be added together as most scholars do, but the 434 years refer to Messiah's first coming (which he demonstrated), and the 49 years refer to His second coming, after Israel is reestablished, an idea unheard of 300 years ago but happening in our generation The start date for counting has been controversial. Many thought the 49-year-count would be the date of Israel's rebirth on May 14, 1948, but, alas, that did not work out. Other dates were tried unsuccessfully. But what if the count begins on one of the two most historical dates in Jewish history, the date in the miraculous Six-Day War when Israel captured Jerusalem and the Temple Mount: June 7, 1967? Assume the 49-year count (49 Jewish years X 360 days = 17,640 days), does start on June 7, 1967. Using a date-counter Web site at http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html we learn that the 17,640-day count takes us exactly to September 23, 2015. September 23, 2015 is the Day of Atonement! What are the odds against that? Many have believed that the Second Coming will be on the Day of Atonement. If he knew this, old Isaac Newton would be doing cartwheels and back flips right now. http://www.prophecyforum.com/bramlett/prophetic_perspectives.htmlbornagain77
May 4, 2011
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AMW ate 4: "But the extant Hebrew manuscripts only get you to about the time of Christ, which is about 3000 years after Moses. I’m asking what the evidence is that the manuscripts were copied as conscientiously throughout that 3000 year period. Or what the evidence is that the original manuscripts actually date back that far....You know, for a crowd that likes to crow about gaps in the fossil record . . ." cmow at 8: "Rabbi Averick is placing the Torah’s beginning around 1000 BC — 3000 years ago. You seem to be looking for a 5000 year history — 2000 back to Jesus plus 3000 more years. Granted that doesn’t do away with the gap you are questioning, but it does lessen it." AMW at 10: "Whoops! My mistake. According to the omniscient Wikipedia, Jewish scholars tend(ed?) to place Moses around 1300 BCE; Christians tended to place him around 1550 BCE." AMW at 11: "Let me just add as an addendum that the events described in Genesis are purported to have started about 4,000 years BCE. So that’s a pretty long (~2500 year) oral tradition to add to the start of the written tradition." So let me translate this little exchange for the rest of us: AMR: There's a huge 3000 year gap of evidence for the historicity of the Old Testament; which makes theist pronouncements exactly like Darwinist pronouncements regarding the fossil record (Only Darwinists are entitled to such pronouncements, and theists are not). cmow: No there's not, there's only a 1000 year gap. AMR: Well, I decided to actually look it up this time rather than guessing, and I'm coming to a 1550 year gap. And oh, since I've been proved wrong, I think I need to move the goal posts a bit so I can continue with my skepticism without investigating anything prior to my pronouncements; so I'll just say that it's the oral tradition that is the problem, and which goes back to 4,000 years B.C. so there.CannuckianYankee
May 4, 2011
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Mung you state; 'Well, since this prohecy exists only in the imagination…' EXCUSE ME???? Let's go through this a little slower: Prior to 1948, Israel last existed as an independent nation in 606 B.C. when the first captives of Israel were taken by Nebuchadnezzar. The destruction of Israel at the hands of the Babylonians was completed in 587 B.C. with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. For 70 biblical years (approximately 69 years on the Gregorian calendar), the Jewish people were held as captives in Babylon. In 537 B.C., the Persian King Cyrus conquered Babylon and issued a decree for the Jews to return to their land and rebuild the Temple. It was during the Babylonian captivity and this return to Israel that Ezekiel appeared as a prophet and provided the following information on the future existence of Israel as an independent nation: "Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel's sins for 390 days - one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days - one day for each year of Judah's sin." Ezekiel 4:4-6 (New Living Translation) According to this passage, the people of Israel would not be free until this period of punishment passed. This time is known as the "Servitude of the Nation," and the time allotted by God is 430 years. However, 70 years of atonement for their sins had already been served during the Babylonian captivity, so only 360 years of punishment remained. The Jews who returned to Israel in 537 B.C. refused to repent of their sins as Ezekiel warned. As a result, Israel continued to be ruled by foreign powers: the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans. In A.D. 70, Titus and the Roman legions destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish people as slaves among the various provinces of the Roman Empire. The year 176 B.C. had come and gone, yet Israel never emerged as an independent nation. So what happened? Was the Bible wrong? Did God change his mind? Absolutely not. Several earlier Old Testament passages shed light on this mystery. In the Book of Leviticus, they reveal that if, upon their return to the land of Israel, the people refused to obey God, he would increase their punishments seven-fold. This is repeated several times: "And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over." Leviticus 26:18 (New Living Translation) "If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins." Leviticus 26:21 (New Living Translation) "And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins." Leviticus 26:23-24 (New Living Translation) "If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins." Leviticus 26:27-28 (New Living Translation) In the year 537 B.C., 360 years of punishment remained on God's timetable. However, when the people of Israel refused to repent of their sins, this punishment was multiplied seven-fold from 360 years to 2,520 years. 360 days comprise a biblical year, so the allotted time equaled 907,200 days. However, in modern times, we don't use the Jewish calendar, but rather the Gregorian calendar which has 365.2425 days in a year. If the 907,200 days are divided by 365.2425, we get approximately 2,483.8292 years. Historians have established that Cyrus the Persian issued his proclamation to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem sometime in the first half of the year 537 B.C. We don't know the exact day of the proclamation, but the Bible reveals that it had to be prior to the seventh month on the Jewish calendar because in that month, "the Israelites had settled in their towns, all the people assembled together as one person in Jerusalem." Ezra 3:1 (New Living Translation) Without an exact starting date, it's more accurate to count backward 907,200 days from the day of Israel's restoration. Israel declared its status as an independent nation on May 14, 1948. Numerous online calendar conversion tools are available for counting days as well as converting between the Gregorian calendar and the Jewish calendar. Just try Googling "Jewish calendar conversion" to find one. Subtracting 907,200 days from the Gregorian date of May 14, 1948, the calculator reveals a date of July 15, 537 B.C. Gregorian Calendar: 14 May 1948 A.D. Jewish Calendar: 5 Iyyar 5708 -907,200 days (360 days x 2,520 years) Gregorian Calendar: 15 July 537 B.C. Jewish Calendar: 15 Av 3224 Does this reconcile with the Biblical statement that the Jews had resettled in Jerusalem in the seventh month of 537 B.C.? The equivalent date on the Jewish calendar is 15 Av 3224 - the fifteenth day of the fifth month. Since approximately 900 miles separate Babylon and Jerusalem (the geographical distance is less, but the ancient travel route is estimated at 900 miles), and ancient caravans rarely traveled more than 20 miles per day, this date doesn't seem to contradict the biblical account. The Jews would have had only 74 days to make their trip. Accounting for the Sabbath day of rest, that leaves approximately 63 actual travel days to reach Jerusalem before the end of the seventh month. To cover 900 miles in that time, they needed to average 14.29 miles/per day, 6 days per week - a task well within reach. It also seems highly likely that Cyrus made his proclamation in this part of the year, because the Jewish holiday Tisha B'Av, a three week fast commemorating the destruction of the Temple 50 years earlier ends on the 9th of Av. 9 Av 537 B.C. was within a one week of the 50th anniversary of the Temple's destruction, a fitting time for a king's proclamation to rebuild it. Although July 15, 537 B.C. can not be verified by outside sources as the exact day of Cyrus's proclamation, we do know that 537 B.C. was the year in which he made it. As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel's restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred. Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/449317bornagain77
May 4, 2011
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