Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and ETs: Commenter is too clever by half

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O’Leary/ Bencze

Here’s a comment to “Extraterrestrials: Looking back a decade on ‘Are we alone?’”:

Anything that is intelligent but is not living on this planet is an extra-terrestrial intelligence, and that is what Intelligent Design proponents believe is the best explanation for life on Earth. But here you present a post that concludes there probably is no such thing as extra-terrestrial intelligence! Looks like you’ve figured out that ID was wrong after all, huh?

The commenter has doubtless offered himself an award for cleverness so I won’t go there, and will only say that his is an interesting attempt to deflect discussion from genuine issues:

1. On the evidence, there is no justification for the claims about billions of habitable worlds (and lots of inhabited ones) that I have been addressing in the series linked below.

Probability calculations (“billions and billions”) are about as reliable as a claim that there must be more than one type of rational life form on Earth because there are just so many types. No matter how many, there is only one rational form.

That fact should prompt caution about mere probability calculations when we do not know basic facts such as how life forms (or how higher intelligence forms, for that matter), or the details of the supposed matrix in either case.

Such evidence as we have suggests that complex life in the galaxy is rare. Even microorganisms may not be as common as we would hope. Not if we go by our experience so far with Mars.

Granted, we do not have enough evidence. But there is no warrant for concluding the opposite of what Mars has so far shown us.

2. Intelligent design is about recognition of patterns that, so far as we know require a high level of information, typically associated with an intelligence. Extrapolations about the nature of the intelligence involve additional assumptions (theism, pantheism, the Way, etc., and—off the beaten track—advanced space aliens). These assumptions are interesting but they take us off the immediate topic, a specific manifestation of that intelligence.

The only widely accepted alternative is a Ponzi scheme known as neo-Darwinism, by which the elimination of life forms that are unfit in a given environment somehow produces over time mechanisms overwhelmingly more complex than the most sophisticated computer system known to be designed by an intelligence. If you believe that, invest with whoever replaced Bernie Madoff—provided your country has some kind of social safety net. The fact that the crowning achievement of the neo-Darwinian discipline is “evolutionary” psychology speaks for itself.

3. Discussion of all these issues is vitiated by underlying assumptions such as the Copernican Principle, whereby Earth must be a usual and normal planet, when all reason and evidence suggest otherwise. And by the undisguised dislike many cosmologists feel for the Big Bang, which accounts well enough for the evidence but violates their beliefs about what the universe should be like. Sorry guys, next universe over might suit you better. Check it out.

One problem right now is that most science writers see their job as purveying  these attitudes, assumptions, values, prejudices, and beliefs to the public, all of which I think  are overdue for a challenge.

See also: What has materialism done for science?

Copernicus, you are not going to believe who is using your name. Or how.

Behold, countless Earths sail the galaxies … that is, if you would only believe …

Don’t let Mars fool you. Those exoplanets teem with life!

– O’Leary for News

Comments
5for: RDF, I am surprised you didn’t comment on these words of StephenB’s (...)
I would be surprised if RDF would ever address the issues stated by SB - or anyone else.Box
November 20, 2013
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RDFish:
Both UB and StephenB respond with nothing except dismissals at this point.
By your own admission you don't have an argument, all you have so far is a "conjunctive proposition." No wonder people are dismissive. Arguments compel assent. Conjunctive propositions don't.Mung
November 20, 2013
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RDFish:
My statement is a conjunctive proposition, not a logical inference, so there are no premises or conclusions. Have you been led astray by Mung’s delusional ramblings?
You mean the delusional rambling where I clearly said the same thing you say now, that your statement is not an argument? Mung @125:
That’s not an argument, it’s an assertion.
And yet you also plainly stated:
Yes, Daniel, that is precisely my argument, and quite well put! Here, I’ll repeat it yet again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
So were you lying then, or are you lying now? It's precisely your argument, but it's not an argument. Sure. Whatever you say.Mung
November 20, 2013
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RDF, I am surprised you didn't comment on these words of StephenB's: "Well, no, not hardly. It was not in vain that I said, “Our repeated and uniform experience allows for and even anticipates things outside of our experience.” That means, of course, that any ID inference to design that allows for a disembodies designer, is indeed, consistent with our experience." Effectively, what StephenB has just said is that absolutely everything is consistent with our experience, even things that aren't.5for
November 20, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
First, he characterizes repeated and universal experience solely in terms of our accumulated sense experience without taking account of the improved judgment that arises from that experience.
You have already agreed that our universal experience is that design is impossible without complex physical mechanism, so this is irrelevant.
Second, he doesn’t link his analysis with ID’s claims or the historical methods that support them–the same historical methods that are derived from our experience.
Your allusion to these “non-negotiable methods” are simply a way to detour aware from the simple and obvious points I am making. There is no need for elaborate methodology in order to evaluate the simple arguments I am making. You are simply trying to derail the discussion – otherwise, you would explain which of these rules of historical science you believe I have somehow violated.
Third, he rules out, in principle, any future designer that we might discover that could fine tune the knowledge we have already acquired through experience.
Three pitches, three strikes. I just got through saying the exact opposite to you, but of course you ignored it (post #143): Nobody can predict what sorts of things that are entirely outside of our experience currently may be uncovered someday. Wow, that was a blatant error even for you. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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RDF writes
Daniel King, From others’ comments here I am assuming you are actually an ID supporter, which makes me even more grateful for your even-handed comments. Thank you!
RD, you are a regular riot. Really, you are. Next you will be thanking Alan Fox for his disinterested and thoughtful support.StephenB
November 20, 2013
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All, Both UB and StephenB respond with nothing except dismissals at this point. I responded clearly and in good faith to each of SB's three points, and he has no rebuttal at all (except to say "thanks for playing"). This is very bad form indeed. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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Daniel King,
As someone might have said in another thread, when you accuse people who disagree with you of bad faith, ignorance, mindlessness or irrationaliy merely for disagreeing, it does you no credit. Nor does it advance the discussion.
You seem to forget that some people really do argue in bad faith and the signs are fairly evident when it happens. How, in your opinion, should one respond to that trait. I would be interested in your opinion.StephenB
November 20, 2013
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No, RD, actually, you dissembled as usual. The fact that you feel the need to do that is instructive. But thank you for playing.StephenB
November 20, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
First, he characterizes repeated and universal experience solely in terms of our accumulated sense experience without taking account of the improved judgment that arises from that experience.
You have already agreed that our universal experience is that design is impossible without complex physical mechanism, so this is irrelevant.
Second, he doesn’t link his analysis with ID’s claims or the historical methods that support them–the same historical methods that are derived from our experience.
Your allusion to these "non-negotiable methods" are simply a way to detour aware from the simple and obvious points I am making. There is no need for elaborate methodology in order to evaluate the simple arguments I am making. You are simply trying to derail the discussion - otherwise, you would explain which of these rules of historical science you believe I have somehow violated.
Third, he rules out, in principle, any future designer that we might discover that could fine tune the knowledge we have already acquired through experience.
Three pitches, three strikes. I just got through saying the exact opposite to you, but of course you ignored it (post #143): Nobody can predict what sorts of things that are entirely outside of our experience currently may be uncovered someday. Wow, that was a blatant error even for you. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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Daniel King, From others' comments here I am assuming you are actually an ID supporter, which makes me even more grateful for your even-handed comments. Thank you! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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Upright Biped @144, you write,
You’ve repeated this position over and over again. Apparently, it has never occurred to you that under this rubric, the only ”good theory” of life’s origin would be one that is already a part of our universal experience. This doesn’t leave much room for the investigation of a historical event from the unobservable past – does it? In fact, one has to wonder if your idiosyncratic naming convention for historical theories makes one bit of sense at all. In any case, I think we can say with complete confidence, that if any of us were to suddenly be given the knowledge of how life on earth came into being, we would be coming into the possession of knowledge BEYOND OUR UNIVERSAL EXPERIENCE. This should be rather obvious, but here again; you seem to lack any rational perspective on such things. It’s as if you’ve never really thought things through.
This is well stated and dramatizes three important aspects of RD's confusion. First, he characterizes repeated and universal experience solely in terms of our accumulated sense experience without taking account of the improved judgment that arises from that experience. Second, he doesn't link his analysis with ID's claims or the historical methods that support them--the same historical methods that are derived from our experience. Third, he rules out, in principle, any future designer that we might discover that could fine tune the knowledge we have already acquired through experience. In the most ironic fashion conceivable, RD feigns fidelity to the standard of uniform experience even as he disdains the scientific wisdom and cause-detection methodology that we have acquired through that same experience. It doesn't get any better than that.StephenB
November 20, 2013
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UB, Just as I predicted: Even when you have no more room to run, you still won't actually engage the argument. Anyone - like you - who wants to leave the question open of whether or not ID's "designer" is a complex embodied entity is disingenuous, pure and simple. It's been ID's ploy from the very beginning. You refuse to discuss the very explanation you believe ought be accepted by all as the best scientific explanation of life, the universe, and everything. You refuse to discuss any scientific evidence that discredits your theory. Your only rebuttal is "Oh, you have gone off the deep end!" That is not an argument - that is a surrender. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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Daniel King should apply for discussion supervisor here at uncommondescent.Box
November 20, 2013
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Daniel at #149: As someone might have said in another thread, when you accuse people who disagree with you of bad faith, ignorance, mindlessness or irrationaliy merely for disagreeing, it does you no credit. Nor does it advance the discussion.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
RDF: No, you are of course the one who is confused … none of you ID folks are able to follow any sort of subtle or conditional argumentation … you apparently require a great deal of repitition before you can actually comprehend these things … If you were able to read and understand language a little better … your bizarre notion ... is simply nonsensical … What you fail to understand (among other things) … we need to work through that step-by-step, so you don’t get confused … You have put your fingers in your ears, and you are screaming for me to stop telling you what the truth is, because you don’t want to hear it. “END!” you cry. “Stop, please, don’t say any more about the designer because I can’t stand to hear it! My precious beliefs in transcendent mind are too fragile to discuss, and so I forbid any discussion that might make me evaluate my beliefs against the evidence!” … That is simply pathetic. You are pretending to base your religious beliefs on scientific evidence, but when it doesn’t go your way, all you do is shout out “END! YOU CAN’T TALK ABOUT THAT!” … If you aren’t willing to take the evidence where it leads, then stop pretending to care about evidence, and just admit your beliefs are faith-based like all of those good old-fashioned religious people used to do … Oh good grief – can’t you read? … I know you won’t respond to that – you’ll just ignore it again, your fear and loathing preventing you from understanding these simple points … The real targets of my arguments are people like you who attempt to co-opt the imprimatur of science in order to push their own particular religious beliefs upon others, but then are afraid to actually subject their views to the sort of critique that all scientific results must be subjected to. You want to claim that science shows your religious views are correct, but then refuse to discuss all of the empirical evidence that may be inconsistent your beliefs. “End!” you cry! “No more evidence, please!”
UB: a complete loss of control, right off the deep end
Daniel: That is not a cogent rebuttal. It is a rude thumb in the eye. Please try to behave in a civil manner or retire from the discussion.
Ya can’t make this stuff up.Upright BiPed
November 20, 2013
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StephenB, responding to RDF's argument that I quoted:
The problem is the argument that he tried to frame based on the premise, which doesn’t follow. Obviously, you are unaware of it, which prompts me to think that you are mindlessly playing the role of cheerleader for an anti-ID partisan.
As someone might have said in another thread, when you accuse people who disagree with you of bad faith, ignorance, mindlessness or irrationaliy merely for disagreeing, it does you no credit. Nor does it advance the discussion.Daniel King
November 20, 2013
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RDF:
So perhaps we now finally agree: The only things in our experience that can design and build complex structures are all embodied as complex physical entities.
Finally agree? I granted the point arguendo in 1980. (A small exaggeration). Those strawmen are so darned useful aren't they?
Any other sort of intelligent agent that any theory might posit is not consistent with our experience-based knowledge.
Well, no, not hardly. It was not in vain that I said, "Our repeated and uniform experience allows for and even anticipates things outside of our experience." That means, of course, that any ID inference to design that allows for a disembodies designer, is indeed, consistent with our experience. Naturally, you cut those definitive words out of your recapitulation, you rascal you. That is so unlike you (insert smiley face).StephenB
November 20, 2013
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Upright BiPed @146, That is not a cogent rebuttal. It is a rude thumb in the eye. Please try to behave in a civil manner or retire from the discussion.Daniel King
November 20, 2013
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:) a complete loss of control, right off the deep endUpright BiPed
November 20, 2013
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Hi UprightBiPed,
Oh no, you’ve become confused about what your concession entailed.
No, you are of course the one who is confused: I am making exactly the same arguments now as I've made all along. Once you finally agree to the simple and obvious points I make regarding our experience-based knowledge of intelligent agents, you will see how the rest of the implications for ID (that we discussed some weeks ago in other threads) will play out. The reason I have to do this in simple steps is because (1) none of you ID folks agree on what "ID Theory" is supposed to explain, and so I have to formulate these arguments differently for different versions of ID; and (2) none of you ID folks are able to follow any sort of subtle or conditional argumentation, and so unless I break it down into simple steps we just go in endless circles of evasion. Let me repeat some of these problems for you (you apparently require a great deal of repitition before you can actually comprehend these things): Some ID folks here argue that brains are not required for thinking, while others insist that it is riduculous to imagine any intelligent being without a brain! Some ID folks here argue that ID is the best explanation for the creation of the universe and the values of the physical constants, and while others (like you) insist that ID only intends to explain the origin of terrestrial life. Since you ID folks can't even decide what this "ID Theory" is supposed to mean, or to explain, I hope you can see why no single formulation of my simple arguments can address the wide range of ideas that supposedly comprise this "scientific theory" of yours.
Your observation (regarding the physical nature of the designer) does nothing whatsoever to alter or diminish the observation that enables the design inference. So you’d like to set that fact aside and not talk about it any further. Hilarious.
If you were able to read and understand language a little better, you would find that I have been adamant since the very beginning that both of these statements are true summaries of our shared experience. Therefore, your bizarre notion that one was supposed to "diminish" or "alter" the other is simply nonsensical - our experience is what it is, and both statements are true descriptions of our experience. What you fail to understand (among other things) is how our experience relates to our explanations of various phenomena we might be interested in explaining. But we need to work through that step-by-step, so you don't get confused.
The design inference (with regard to CSI) is derived solely from the fact that CSI is universally found to result from the action of an intelligent agent. End.
You have put your fingers in your ears, and you are screaming for me to stop telling you what the truth is, because you don't want to hear it. "END!" you cry. "Stop, please, don't say any more about the designer because I can't stand to hear it! My precious beliefs in transcendent mind are too fragile to discuss, and so I forbid any discussion that might make me evaluate my beliefs against the evidence!" That is simply pathetic. You are pretending to base your religious beliefs on scientific evidence, but when it doesn't go your way, all you do is shout out "END! YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT!" If you aren't willing to take the evidence where it leads, then stop pretending to care about evidence, and just admit your beliefs are faith-based like all of those good old-fashioned religious people used to do.
However, for you to accomplish your goal, you must force the design inference to include an immaterial designer as a necessity in reaching the inference to design.
Oh good grief - can't you read? I have written this to you four times now:
1) The term “design inference” refers to the activity of an intelligent entity 2) It does not specify if this intelligent entity is a complex physical entity or not 3) If ID specified that the intelligent entity was a complex physical entity, then it would be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents. 4) If ID specified that the intelligent entity was NOT a complex physical entity, then it would NOT be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents (even though this is the sort of entity that most adherents of ID Theory have in mind) 5) This is a critical difference, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out that only one of these two types of intelligent entity that ID may be hypothesizing is consistent with our experience, while the other type is not.
I know you won't respond to that - you'll just ignore it again, your fear and loathing preventing you from understanding these simple points. You have no response to my arguments (but your behavior is pretty interesting from a clinical point of view).
Apparently, it has never occurred to you that under this rubric, the only ”good theory” of life’s origin would be one that is already a part of our universal experience.
You are just grasping at straws here. The Big Bang is one example of a well-supported empirical theory of events in the past that we cannot experience, but that is consistent with our uniform experience of physical laws. This counter-argument - like all the others you've tried - fails (this one is a total non-starter).
But let us continue to be forthright; the real target for your “immaterial” bullet is the ID theist who believes in a Supreme Being as the originator of life.
I have never had any problem at all with people that hold theistic views of course! The real targets of my arguments are people like you who attempt to co-opt the imprimatur of science in order to push their own particular religious beliefs upon others, but then are afraid to actually subject their views to the sort of critique that all scientific results must be subjected to. You want to claim that science shows your religious views are correct, but then refuse to discuss all of the empirical evidence that may be inconsistent your beliefs. "End!" you cry! "No more evidence, please!" Theists who are honest about their faith have my full respect. Theists who pretend that their particular views about religion are based on empirical science, like you, do not.
To the contrary, it is entirely conceivable our conception of immaterial is useless, and that such a Supreme Being is just as physical as the energy that originated the universe in the first place.
I'm not talking about what is "entirely conceivable" of course - I'm talking about the things ID folks pretend are supported by our experience-based knowledge. We have no experience-based knowledge of anything that can design things - nothing that can perceive, reason, plan, predict, solve problems, or any task that involves storing and processing information about the world - unless it is a complex physical entity. If you want to make some scientific theory of origins that involves some being that can do these things, just be honest about what you're talking about and we can see how likely it is that such a thing might have existed. Just stop pretending, and hold your beliefs with integrity and honesty. It really is a much better way to live. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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I see you have very funny debating trick where you pretend your opponent is forced into various concessions when in fact they have kept the exact same argument throughout.
Oh no, you’ve become confused about what your concession entailed. But I assure you it’s no trick. It’s what happens when someone makes claims they cannot defend, so their claim becomes whittled down to a splinter of its former glory, but because the person has no intention of actually conceding their losses, you are obligated to watch carefully for the point in the conversation where they reposition their argument. And that is exactly what you did, RDF. You started off claiming that ID (all ID) must assume an immaterial designer, then after losing your shirt, you re-constituted your claim to involve only a version of ID that claims to explain complexity in any context whatsoever. Hence, the subtle re-positioning of your argument to “show that at least one version of ID (the one that attempts to explain the very first CSI in the universe) is not consistent with our universal experience”. Those are your words Skippy. Get over it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anyway, as I have said from the very beginning, both statements of our experience are true, and neither “diminishes” or “alters” the other, so we needn’t revisit that yet again
That’s really rich. Your observation (regarding the physical nature of the designer) does nothing whatsoever to alter or diminish the observation that enables the design inference. So you’d like to set that fact aside and not talk about it any further. Hilarious. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The problem with your argument is that when you say “The ID Inference is based on observation A”, you are equivocating on the term “ID Inference”. If that inference refers to a complex embodied designer, then ID is consistent with our experience; otherwise it is not.
You just keep getting better and better. Now you want to re-define what the design inference is. Not a chance. The design inference (with regard to CSI) is derived solely from the fact that CSI is universally found to result from the action of an intelligent agent. End. Your entire shtick here has been to build a talking point where you can say “the ID hypothesis does not conform to our universal experience”. That is all you are after, and it would have been difficult for you to have been more transparent about it. However, for you to accomplish your goal, you must force the design inference to include an immaterial designer as a necessity in reaching the inference to design. But here’s the deal, the inference is made complete and valid without any reference whatsoever to the physical nature of the designer, and you know it. Not only that, but you were specifically challenged to provide some rationale that made the nature of the designer indivisible from reaching the inference itself – but all your rational follows the inference; none of it was indivisible. Not only did you fail this challenge, but as you have now stated several times yourself; the physical nature of the designer does not alter or diminish the observation that CSI rises from design. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beyond this noted fatal flaw, your argument has two serious problems. The first is in regards to your rather useless conception of “universal experience” and the other is in regards to your assumptions about ID and immateriality. As for “universal experience”, we can immediately agree on the value of using our universal experience as a measure of reliable knowledge. There is no question about that value. Unfortunately, you seem to want to use universal experience as a billyclub to beat square pegs into round holes. You’ve spent a great deal of time on UD talking about how the very proposition of something beyond our universal experience makes ID a “BAD THEORY”. You’ve repeated this position over and over again. Apparently, it has never occurred to you that under this rubric, the only ”good theory” of life’s origin would be one that is already a part of our universal experience. This doesn’t leave much room for the investigation of a historical event from the unobservable past – does it? In fact, one has to wonder if your idiosyncratic naming convention for historical theories makes one bit of sense at all. In any case, I think we can say with complete confidence, that if any of us were to suddenly be given the knowledge of how life on earth came into being, we would be coming into the possession of knowledge BEYOND OUR UNIVERSAL EXPERIENCE. This should be rather obvious, but here again; you seem to lack any rational perspective on such things. It’s as if you’ve never really thought things through. And finally is the problem with your charge of immateriality within ID. You throw out the supposed “immaterial hypothesis” of ID, as if the mere accusation itself will insulate your argument against all reproach - but your position is just flat mistaken. It is entirely conceivable that we could come to know that life on earth began as an act of design, and at the same time, violate absolutely nothing of our universal experience of what is physically possible or not possible in the universe. But let us continue to be forthright; the real target for your “immaterial” bullet is the ID theist who believes in a Supreme Being as the originator of life. But yet here again, your position simply never achieves its goal. You’ve completely failed to demonstrate that such a class of being must necessarily be “immaterial”. To the contrary, it is entirely conceivable our conception of immaterial is useless, and that such a Supreme Being is just as physical as the energy that originated the universe in the first place. So once again, even in the extreme, your argument simply falls short. However, you have made it clear that none of this matters to you in the least. You clearly intend on going on with your “BAD THEORY” schtick regardless of the fact that the design inference doesn’t rely on the nature of the designer, or that the only “good theory” in your world is a solution you already have – one with no hypothetical element and no provisional nature. So what’s the point of the conversation? good luck…Upright BiPed
November 20, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Your analysis is, and always has been, too constricted and is, therefore, unreasonable. In fact, we can logically go directly from this: “It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism” –to this: “Still, it is entirely possible that something outside of our experience can design something without a complex mechanism.”
Yes, of course, Stephen. We could also say something like "It is entirely possible that something outside of our experience that has no conscious mind or intelligence at all can result in CSI-rich structures such as we observe in biological systems". Nobody can predict what sorts of things that are entirely outside of our experience currently may be uncovered someday. For example, quantum physics was entirely beyond our experience - and even our imagination - until it was discovered only a hundred years ago. So perhaps we now finally agree: The only things in our experience that can design and build complex structures are all embodied as complex physical entities. Any other sort of intelligent agent that any theory might posit is not consistent with our experience-based knowledge. Once one begins to make conjectures about intelligent agents that are not themselves complex physical entities, one needs to provide actual evidence that such things might exist; otherwise, one might as well just point to some unknown aspect of nature that is entirely outside of our experience and understanding that somehow promotes the formation of complex form and function. It’s really no more complicated than that. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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RDFish:
Well, you told me that you were going to explain why you think that; I guess you must have forgotten.
By all means. Your analysis is, and always has been, too constricted and is, therefore, unreasonable. In fact, we can logically go directly from this: “It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism” –to this: “Still, it is entirely possible that something outside of our experience can design something without a complex mechanism.” Our repeated and uniform experience allows for and even anticipates things outside of our experience. Everything turns on the quality of the evidence and the reliability of the methods used. Your methods are unreliable because they have not been tested and the methods of historical science are reliable because they have been tested. It's really no more complicated than that.StephenB
November 20, 2013
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Hi Upright BiPed,
You were asked to explain exactly how observation “B” (that any intelligent act requires an organized agent) alters or diminishes observation “A” (that CSI always arises from an intelligent act). When the question was asked over and over and over and over and over again, you finally answered that observation “B” didn’t alter or diminish observation “A” in any way whatsoever.
I see you have very funny debating trick where you pretend your opponent is forced into various concessions when in fact they have kept the exact same argument throughout. Does anyone ever actually fall for that? I guess it was funny the first time, anyway; now it's just a stupid time-waster. Anyway, as I have said from the very beginning, both statements of our experience are true, and neither "diminishes" or "alters" the other, so we needn't revisit that yet again.
Given the fact that the ID inference is based on observation A, and that observation B does not alter observation A, and the number of potential scenarios where observation A and B co-exists, one wonders if you might bring yourself to express even the slightest bit of intellectual discipline over your treatment of these facts.
The problem with your argument is that when when you say "The ID Inference is based on observation A", you are equivocating on the term "ID Inference". If that inference refers to a complex embodied designer, then ID is consistent with our experience; otherwise it is not. I went to some effort to explain all of this to you, but you neglected to respond. The reason you won't respond is because you don't actually want to debate this (because you know you will lose). Otherwise, simply concede that what I say is correct, and let's see where the evidence leads us! Once again: 1) The term “design inference” refers to the activity of an intelligent entity 2) It does not specify if this intelligent entity is a complex physical entity or not 3) If ID specified that the intelligent entity was a complex physical entity, then it would be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents. 4) If ID specified that the intelligent entity was NOT a complex physical entity, then it would NOT be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents (even though this is the sort of entity that most adherents of ID Theory have in mind) 5) This is a critical difference, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out that only one of these two types of intelligent entity that ID may be hypothesizing is consistent with our experience, while the other type is not. And that is what I am doing: I am simply making the perfectly obvious point that in order to be consistent with our experience-based knowledge, we must consider any sort of intelligent agency that is hypothesized to be responsible for biological systems to have itself been a complex physical entity. You are trying very hard to justify an equivocation here: You wish to leave it an open question whether or not ID’s Designer is a complex physical being. And of course you do, because you believe very strongly that ID’s Designer transcends corporeal form. You are loathe to accept that an incorporeal Designer would inconsistent with the empirical evidence, and so you try to prevent any discussion that would mention that inconvenient fact. You want to appeal to empirical evidence just up to a point (the part where you get intelligent agency) but then you refuse to look at what else that empirical evidence supports (the part that says intelligent agents are necessarily complex physical entities). Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either you drop the pretense of basing ID on empirical evidence, or you concede that the empirical evidence suggests that the Designer ID offers as an explanation of CSI would have to have been a complex physical entity, just like all other intelligent designers in our experience. Again, once you accept this simple, obvious point we can examine the implications for ID theory in general. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
[a] “It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism.” True statement [b] “It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without an immaterial mind.” True statement
I'm not sure what you mean, actually, by "immaterial mind", but perhaps "conscious mind" would make sense to both of us, OK? In that case yes, both of those statements are true, if a bit awkwardly expressed.
Pertaining to [a], it does not follow, however, that any theory consistent with our experience of intelligent agency must posit and intelligent agent that is a complex physical entity.
Well, you told me that you were going to explain why you think that; I guess you must have forgotten. Is it because a theory may still posit a disembodied designer even though it is unlikely to exist given our experience-based knowledge? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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RDF, all of the issues you raise in 131 have already been dealt with. You were asked to explain exactly how observation "B" (that any intelligent act requires an organized agent) alters or diminishes observation "A" (that CSI always arises from an intelligent act). When the question was asked over and over and over and over and over again, you finally answered that observation "B" didn't alter or diminish observation "A" in any way whatsoever. Given the fact that the ID inference is based on observation A, and that observation B does not alter observation A, and the number of potential scenarios where observation A and B co-exists, one wonders if you might bring yourself to express even the slightest bit of intellectual discipline over your treatment of these facts. Thus far (like your sophomoric mistreatment of "universal experience") you haven't demonstrated much of a capacity for discipline.Upright BiPed
November 20, 2013
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RDFish
"Any theory that claims to be (1) probably true and (2) consistent with our experience of intelligent agency must not posit the existence of an intelligent agent that is not a complex physical entity.
No, it doesn't follow. Actually, the earlier version was cleaner. "It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism.” No doubt you would like to know why this doesn't work. Since I have explained the reason numerous times, I should probably not bother with it. But just to show you what a good sport I am, I will step up one more time. However, this time, I am going to leave out the last step so you can figure it out for yourself. [a] "It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism.” True statement [b] "It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without an immaterial mind." True statement Pertaining to [a], it does not follow, however, that any theory consistent with our experience of intelligent agency must posit and intelligent agent that is a complex physical entity. Pertaining to [b], it does not follow, however, that any theory consistent with our experience of intelligent agency must posit an intelligent agent that is a pure spirit. Have you got it yet?StephenB
November 20, 2013
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Hi Clavdivs,
You can’t infer the “necessarily” because you granted the “unlikely” (@133). If *nothing* in our empirically-based experience can intelligently design absent complex mechanism, then any empirically-based theory of intelligent design must necessarily posit a designer with a complex mechanism. Seems right to me but something tells me StephenB won’t agree …
The assumption here is that theories would necessarily refrain from offering unlikely explanations, but yes, you're right, Stephen will undoubtedly disagree. Here it is more clearly (it feels like I'm crafting a legal document here, with SB trying to find any possible loophole!): Any theory that claims to be (1) probably true and (2) consistent with our experience of intelligent agency must not posit the existence of an intelligent agent that is not a complex physical entity. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 20, 2013
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RDFish You can't infer the "necessarily" because you granted the "unlikely" (@133). If *nothing* in our empirically-based experience can intelligently design absent complex mechanism, then any empirically-based theory of intelligent design must necessarily posit a designer with a complex mechanism. Seems right to me but something tells me StephenB won't agree ...CLAVDIVS
November 19, 2013
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i StephenB,
RDF:Any empirically-based theory that posits the existence of an intelligent being must necessarily be talking about an entity with a complex physical body. SB: No, it doesn’t follow. But thank you for playing. Notice, by the way, that I cheerfully continue to answer all your questions ...
Yes, you are nothing if not cheerful, Stephen. Would you be so kind, then, as to say why you don't agree with that statement? Or perhaps offer some sort of corrected version? How about this for example: No theory that claims to be consistent with our experience can posit an intelligent being that is not itself a complex physical being
...and you conveniently continue to evade all my questions.
As always I'll be happy to answer all your questions, Stephen. What would you like me to answer? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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