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Evolution And Probabilities: A Response to Jason Rosenhouse

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I recently published an article on Uncommon Descent on the value of probabilistic arguments in the evolution debate. Mathematician and ScienceBlogs contributor Jason Rosenhouse has since responded with a rebuttal on his blog. Here, I offer a brief response.

Rosenhouse writes,

Jonathan M. is completely confused about what the issue is. Pigliucci certainly never claimed that biologists are not interested in evaluating probabilistic feasibility (whatever that even means). He said simply that evolutionary biologists do not assign probabilities to specific events in the way that ID folks would like.

For example, Jonathan M. points to a calculation in which biologist Sean Carroll estimated the probability of obtaining the same mutation four times independently in different orders of birds. In such a narrowly defined situation the problem has more to do with combinatorics than probability, and we can be confident that all of the relevant variables can be approximated with reasonable accuracy.

He also points to a paper by Durrett and Schmidt, in which they evaluated the probability of obtaining two particular mutations in at least one individual of a population. Once again, in such a narrowly defined situation it is possible to get a grip on all of the relevant variables. But notice that neither they, nor Carroll, were trying to calculate the probability of evolving a flagellum or anything remotely like that.

While it is true that the individuals in question do not attempt to calculate the probability of something of the complexity of a bacterial flagellum, to handwavingly assert that such calculations have no bearing whatsoever on questions such as this seems to me to be somewhat naive.

For example, let’s grant for purposes of our argument here that the conclusions reached in Douglas Axe’s bacterial population model are correct: That is, if a duplicated gene is neutral, then the maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six, whereas if the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer. If one can demonstrate that the evolutionary steps to a functioning flagellum would likely require more co-ordinated mutations than this at the individual stages, then — even though the exact probability of the flagellum may not be directly calculable — it seems to be a plausible inference that the flagellum lies beyond the reach of the Darwinian mechanism.

But here’s the thing. According to Douglas Axe’s more recent research, done in collaboration with Ann Gauger, even a seemingly trivial switch from Kbl to BioF function requires at least seven co-ordinated mutations, putting the transition well beyond the reach of a Darwinian process within the time allowed by the age of the earth. Their paper studies the PLP-dependent transferases superfamily. They identified a pair within the superfamily with close structural similarity but no overlapping function. The enzymes chosen were Kbl (which is involved in threonine metabolism) and BioF (which is part of the biotin synthesis pathway). And they used a three-stage process (which you can read about here) to identify which sequences were most likely to confer a change in function.

And thus they estimated that seven or more mutations would be required to convert Kbl to BioF function.

Axe and Gauger’s paper is not an isolated result. For example, one fairly recent review in Nature reported that changing an enzyme’s chemistry may require multiple neutral or deleterious mutations.

When these results are taken into account in the context of the predictions of population genetics with regards the waiting time for multiple co-ordinated non-adaptive mutations which are required to facilitate a given transition, the situation for neo-Darwinism appears to be bleak.

In the case of the Durrett and Schmidt (2008) paper, evolutionary biologist Richard von Sternberg has applied the equations employed in that paper to whale evolution. The evolution of Dorudon and Basilosaurus (38 mya) may be compressed into a period of less than 15 million years. Such a transition is a fete of genetic rewiring and it is astonishing that it is presumed to have occurred by Darwinian processes in such a short span of time. This problem is accentuated when one considers that the majority of anatomical novelties unique to aquatic cetaceans (Pelagiceti) appeared during just a few million years – probably within 1-3 million years. The equations of population genetics predict that – assuming an effective population size of 100,000 individuals per generation, and a generation turnover time of 5 years –  according to Richard Sternberg’s calculations and based on equations of population genetics applied in the Durrett and Schmidt paper, that one may reasonably expect two specific co-ordinated mutations to achieve fixation in the timeframe of around 43.3 million years. When one considers the magnitude of the engineering fete, such a scenario is found to be devoid of credibility. Whales require an intra-abdominal counter current heat exchange system (the testis are inside the body right next to the muscles that generate heat during swimming), they need to possess a ball vertebra because the tail has to move up and down instead of side-to-side, they require a re-organisation of kidney tissue to facilitate the intake of salt water, they require a re-orientation of the fetus for giving birth under water, they require a modification of the mammary glands for the nursing of young under water, the forelimbs have to be transformed into flippers, the hindlimbs need to be substantially reduced, they require a special lung surfactant (the lung has to re-expand very rapidly upon coming up to the surface), etc etc.

Moreover, Michael Behe has shown (see chapter seven of The Edge of Evolution) that the evolution of protein-protein binding sites by Darwinian means is immensely improbable. And Douglas Axe, Robert Sauer, Sean Taylor and others have shown that the preponderance of evolutionarily relevant (i.e. functional) protein folds is astronomically rare within sequence space. These types of problems are only accentuated a thousand fold when one considers systems which, by their very nature, require multiple inter-dependent protein interactions in order to perform their functions.

Jason Rosenhouse also mentions the well-known Wilf and Ewens PNAS paper:

This paper by Wilf and Ewens, also mentioned in the post, puts some mathematical meat on the bones of Dawkins’ suggestion. They are working with probabilities only indirectly, and certainly were not trying to assign precise numerical values to specific evolutionary events.

The abstract of this paper reported,

Objections to Darwinian evolution are often based on the time required to carry out the necessary mutations. Seemingly, exponential numbers of mutations are needed. We show that such estimates ignore the effects of natural selection, and that the numbers of necessary mutations are thereby reduced to about K log L, rather than KL, where L is the length of the genomic “word,” and K is the number of possible “letters” that can occupy any position in the word. The required theory makes contact with the theory of radix-exchange sorting in theoretical computer science, and the asymptotic analysis of certain sums that occur there.

This sounds awfully like an attempt to demonstrate the probabilistic plausibility of Darwinism to me. We ID proponents employ probabilistic logic as well, in order to ascertain the likelihood of evolutionarily relevant innovations emerging by Darwinian means. Only we reach the opposite conclusions from those reached by Wilf and Ewens. Darwinists are happy for probabilistic reasoning to be employed only when it suits their purposes in vindicating Darwinism. When ID proponents want to use probabilistic arguments to falsify Darwinism, they won’t be having any of it.

Douglas Axe humorously noted at the time,

If you search the current issues of professional science journals, I doubt you’ll find any papers titled “The Moon Orbits the Earth” or “Copper Conducts Electricity.” Assertions like these would work as section headings in an elementary science textbook, but no scientist would consider them newsworthy, for the simple reason that they aren’t.

Things are different in evolutionary biology, though. Here is a field that somehow never outgrew the need to reiterate its most basic tenets, as though its practitioners never had enough confidence in them to let them stand on their own two feet.

Lee Spetner points out the crippling problems with the paper:

Their model does not mimic natural selection at all. In one generation, according to the model, some number of potentially adaptive mutations may occur, each most likely in a different individual. W&E postulate that these mutations remain in the population and are not changed. Contrary to their intention, this event is not yet evolution, because the mutations have occurred only in single individuals and have not become characteristic of the population. Moreover, W&E have ignored the important fact that a single mutation, even if it has a large selection coefficient, has a high probability of disappearing through random effects [Fisher 1958]. They allow further mutations only in those loci that have not mutated into the “superior” form. It is not clear if they intended that mutations be forbidden in those mutated loci only in those individuals that have the mutation or in other individuals as well. They have ignored the fact that evolution does not occur until an adaptive mutation has taken over the population and thereby becomes a characteristic of the population. Their letter-guessing game is more a parody of the evolutionary process than a model of it. They have not achieved their second goal either.

If Darwinism can’t even handle the trivial, then what chance does it have when it comes to the bigger problems such as building flagella? And if we can’t even evaluate the probabilistic feasibility of the Darwinian mechanism, how can we ever learn whether it is up to the task at hand? Whether they realize it or not, Pigliucci and his ilk have, in effect, rendered Darwinism unfalsifiable.

Comments
But you're missing my point. Given certain known, observable and measurable conditions, the existence of a canyon becomes a certainty. What are the known, observable and measurable conditions that caused our presumed one-cell common ancestor to blossom into all biodiversity? And we are not talking about a singular, specific event -- i.e. the probability of the existence of a garter snake a young boy captures and names Sam -- but of a general on-going process of nature. Natural selection happens. Undirected genetic changes happen. Can these two observed and known forces explain this? Only faith -- and a rather delusional one -- lets you think they can.tribune7
August 23, 2011
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Is being human a trait?Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Behaviour trumps genetics when it comes to adaptation. That is it is easy to change one's behaviour in response to a changing enivironment.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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I should also say, I think it's probably a great mistake to assume that most evolutionary novelties were advantageous at their first appearance. My hunch is that the vast majority of novelties - variants - are neutral, or near-neutral at their first appearance, and of those, a substantial proportion become quite prevalent variants in the population simply through drift. Then, when an environmental change occurs, or when two neutral mutations, already present in the gene pool, coincide in one individual to form an advantageous trait, both become more prevalent. In other words, "microevolution" is no different to "macro-evolution" - both are the result of biased selection of alleles already having substantial prevalence in the gene pool. What do you think, Nick?Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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The first quote doesn't seem to say what you are saying. The second quote seems to say the opposite of what you are saying: "still a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible."Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Of course not. Nobody is claiming that. What people are claiming (me for instance, and Nick) is that adaptation is just about as predictable as the erosion of running water - you can't predict what form the adaptation will take, but you can predict adaptation.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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You are missing Nick's point. The probability of a canyon, somewhere, may be 1. The probability of that particular canyon, with those particular features, is vanishingly small. Yet it occurred. Same with adaptation. The probability of a population adapting to its environment is extremely high. The probability of any given adaptation, with any given set of features, is vanishingly small. Yet it occurs.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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PaV, I have posted here as Joseph for a few years. I accepted and pushed "darwin's dangerous Idea" back in the '70s but by 78 it was obvious, to me, it was a fruitless heuristic- that dog couldn't hunt. Nowadays I push darwin only to mock the conceptJoseph
August 23, 2011
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Thinking further, I will make a general point: It is important, when computing probabilities, to be clear what you are computing the probability of. Where that is easy to state, the probability will also be easy to compute. Where it isn't, it won't be.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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I think you'll have to give a specific example. I thought you were talking about ERVs.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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"Are you satisfied that highly specified molecular configurations arose from pure chance?" No. There had to be natural selection is well. Which isn't chance.Grunty
August 23, 2011
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You're wrong. Just as the probability of the Grand Canyon is "basically 1 given certain parameters", similarly the probability of alligators is 1 "given certain parameters" - as is the probability of human beings "given certain parameters".Grunty
August 23, 2011
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That's why the remark is a red herringkairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Does the Grand Canyon represent some specified pattern, known beforehand? Can it be recognized and be put to use by anything? If the answer to either of these questions is, no, then we're not dealing with anything quite like biological function. From what I understand, running water erodes. So, I would suspect rapidly running water carved out the GC. I'm satisfied with that explanation. Are you satisfied that highly specified molecular configurations arose from pure chance? I'm not.PaV
August 23, 2011
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That's sort of the point, Nick. The probability of the Grand Canyon will be basically 1 given certain parameters. Namely flow of water over a particular mineral composite over x years. You can't take an alligator and say with such and such a force on single-cell lowest common ancestor over x years such a creature would come about. In fact, you can't even take a prokaryote and point to a known force and in an objective way, say that given it and time the prokaryote will evolve into eukaryote.tribune7
August 23, 2011
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"Well, the point about the different environments is that that will effect the selection coefficients." Exactly. So given the fact that each species has inhabited different environments, we can't really calculate the odds of a given nested pattern being displayed by a nucleotide sequence, unless you assume that all those sequences are neutral with respect to fitness. But that's an assumption, and given that all species have inhabited different environments, and therefore you don't know if those sequences were neutral or not at some point, that assumption is not justified.LivingstoneMorford
August 23, 2011
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If, however, we suppose any descendant of A or of I to have become so much modified as to have lost all traces of its parentage in this case, its place in the natural system will be lost, as seems to have occurred with some few existing organisms.-Charles Darwin chapter 14
Extinction has only defined the groups: it has by no means made them; for if every form which has ever lived on this earth were suddenly to reappear, though it would be quite impossible to give definitions by which each group could be distinguished, still a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible.- Charles Darwin chapter 14
Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Life as Evolving Software Gregory Chaitin, July 18, 2011 We are now able to show that random evolution will become cumulative and will reach fitness BB(N) in time that grows roughly as N2, so that random evolution behaves much more like intelligent design than it does like exhaustive search. We also have a version of our model in which we can show that hierarchical structure will evolve, a conspicuous feature of biological organisms that previously was beyond our reach.rhampton7
August 23, 2011
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This sort of challenge simply reveals the paucity of your actual evidence. If you actually had any serious observational evidence for body plan origins by chance variation and differential survival of unicellular organisms several hundred mn ya, you would be shouting from the housetops. Thanks for inadvertently letting us know how thin your case is. That's a red herring FYI.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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We don't care about calculations NickMatzke_UD. We care about evidence. And your position seems to be lacking in that respect. As for the Grand Canyon, the probability of it forming from rain falling in Australia, is zero. :cool:Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Well, the point about the different environments is that that will effect the selection coefficients. Sorry, I'm really not seeing this. Some probabilities are fairly easy to compute, and some are virtually impossible. It all depends on how well you can define the "probability space"!Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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So, JonathanM -- what's the probability of the Grand Canyon? Go on, calculate it, if you think evolutionists should do such calculations for complex biological systems, it ought to be easy for you to do it for the Grand Canyon.NickMatzke_UD
August 23, 2011
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"Not really. At least I’m not seeing your point. You could fairly easily compute the probability of a specific sequence occurring by chance in a nested pattern." Well, no, because you don't know all the variables that were behind the fixation of a given sequence in a population. Human cytochrome c is more similar to mouse cytochrome c than to carp cytochrome c, but one could argue that this is the result of chance. After all, by Jason Rosenhouse's argument, you don't know what environments each species has been in, and so it's very difficult to compute the odds of that pattern occurring by chance.LivingstoneMorford
August 23, 2011
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But the theory, claims to do more than just tell us about distribution of features. According to many of its proponents every biological feature is accounted for by this model. If so, then how those features came to be must be explained.lpadron
August 23, 2011
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Yes, adaptation can occur, and does, without speciation. Speciation isn't an ambiguous concept though. It's pretty clear.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Well, bat wings on birds or bird wings on insects would certainly be a problem for evolution. But the base example of wings is just another example of convergent evolution (i.e physical necessity dictates it). The same is true for mammals shaped like fish (and ichthyosaurs, too) - it's the most efficient dynamic shape for speed in fluid environments, and hence very likely to be selected for. Hence the convergence. So the general evolution of physically advantageous features, such as sleek body shapes in fluid environs, is not surprising. It's the detail that would falsify Darwiniam theory - as evolution only works on what is available, then it would be a problem for the theory if bat wings sprouted bird feathers, for example, but wings are necessary for flight hence their use, in different forms, across the animal kingdom. For the same reason, birds spinning webs and sprouting eight legs would be a falsification of Darwinian theory. Lungs are interesting, because their use in marine mammals potentially falsify ID, I think. If there is a designer, why didn't it ever design a mammal - not one species - with gills instead of lungs?Grunty
August 23, 2011
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I've read the book. I'm not sure what you are referring to. Can you give me a page number?Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Good question :) Essentially, the probability density functions of all the variables in your claim. So that's fairly easy to do for a given sequence of nucleotides, but rapidly becomes virtually impossible once you start to tackle things like the selection coefficient of each mutation at any given time, or the number of equivalent functions, and what their probability is of evolving, etc. It's partly a problem intrinsic to computing post hoc probabilities - you can't really do it unless you have a good handle on what else might have happened.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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That is, if a duplicated gene is neutral, then the maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six, whereas if the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer. If one can demonstrate that the evolutionary steps to a functioning flagellum would likely require more co-ordinated mutations than this at the individual stages, then — even though the exact probability of the flagellum may not be directly calculable — it seems to be a plausible inference that the flagellum lies beyond the reach of the Darwinian mechanism. (emphasis added)
I hope it's clear that this conclusion assumes that evolution by natural selection is not a "Darwinian mechanism".
But here’s the thing. According to Douglas Axe’s more recent research, done in collaboration with Ann Gauger, even a seemingly trivial switch from Kbl to BioF function requires at least seven co-ordinated mutations, putting the transition well beyond the reach of a Darwinian process within the time allowed by the age of the earth. Their paper studies the PLP-dependent transferases superfamily. They identified a pair within the superfamily with close structural similarity but no overlapping function.
Gauger & Axe compared 2 proteins that showed structural similarity, they don't showed any data for the similarity of their DNA sequences, i.e. we're not told how far apart they are evolutionarily. But if one evolved from another, it's the evolutionary distance that needs to be traversed. It's perfectly possible that there is a pathway from a common ancestor to both proteins where every intermediate had a fitness advantage. Hopefully Gauger & Axe are looking at this now.Heinrich
August 23, 2011
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Not really. At least I'm not seeing your point. You could fairly easily compute the probability of a specific sequence occurring by chance in a nested pattern.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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