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Evolution And Probabilities: A Response to Jason Rosenhouse

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I recently published an article on Uncommon Descent on the value of probabilistic arguments in the evolution debate. Mathematician and ScienceBlogs contributor Jason Rosenhouse has since responded with a rebuttal on his blog. Here, I offer a brief response.

Rosenhouse writes,

Jonathan M. is completely confused about what the issue is. Pigliucci certainly never claimed that biologists are not interested in evaluating probabilistic feasibility (whatever that even means). He said simply that evolutionary biologists do not assign probabilities to specific events in the way that ID folks would like.

For example, Jonathan M. points to a calculation in which biologist Sean Carroll estimated the probability of obtaining the same mutation four times independently in different orders of birds. In such a narrowly defined situation the problem has more to do with combinatorics than probability, and we can be confident that all of the relevant variables can be approximated with reasonable accuracy.

He also points to a paper by Durrett and Schmidt, in which they evaluated the probability of obtaining two particular mutations in at least one individual of a population. Once again, in such a narrowly defined situation it is possible to get a grip on all of the relevant variables. But notice that neither they, nor Carroll, were trying to calculate the probability of evolving a flagellum or anything remotely like that.

While it is true that the individuals in question do not attempt to calculate the probability of something of the complexity of a bacterial flagellum, to handwavingly assert that such calculations have no bearing whatsoever on questions such as this seems to me to be somewhat naive.

For example, let’s grant for purposes of our argument here that the conclusions reached in Douglas Axe’s bacterial population model are correct: That is, if a duplicated gene is neutral, then the maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six, whereas if the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer. If one can demonstrate that the evolutionary steps to a functioning flagellum would likely require more co-ordinated mutations than this at the individual stages, then — even though the exact probability of the flagellum may not be directly calculable — it seems to be a plausible inference that the flagellum lies beyond the reach of the Darwinian mechanism.

But here’s the thing. According to Douglas Axe’s more recent research, done in collaboration with Ann Gauger, even a seemingly trivial switch from Kbl to BioF function requires at least seven co-ordinated mutations, putting the transition well beyond the reach of a Darwinian process within the time allowed by the age of the earth. Their paper studies the PLP-dependent transferases superfamily. They identified a pair within the superfamily with close structural similarity but no overlapping function. The enzymes chosen were Kbl (which is involved in threonine metabolism) and BioF (which is part of the biotin synthesis pathway). And they used a three-stage process (which you can read about here) to identify which sequences were most likely to confer a change in function.

And thus they estimated that seven or more mutations would be required to convert Kbl to BioF function.

Axe and Gauger’s paper is not an isolated result. For example, one fairly recent review in Nature reported that changing an enzyme’s chemistry may require multiple neutral or deleterious mutations.

When these results are taken into account in the context of the predictions of population genetics with regards the waiting time for multiple co-ordinated non-adaptive mutations which are required to facilitate a given transition, the situation for neo-Darwinism appears to be bleak.

In the case of the Durrett and Schmidt (2008) paper, evolutionary biologist Richard von Sternberg has applied the equations employed in that paper to whale evolution. The evolution of Dorudon and Basilosaurus (38 mya) may be compressed into a period of less than 15 million years. Such a transition is a fete of genetic rewiring and it is astonishing that it is presumed to have occurred by Darwinian processes in such a short span of time. This problem is accentuated when one considers that the majority of anatomical novelties unique to aquatic cetaceans (Pelagiceti) appeared during just a few million years – probably within 1-3 million years. The equations of population genetics predict that – assuming an effective population size of 100,000 individuals per generation, and a generation turnover time of 5 years –  according to Richard Sternberg’s calculations and based on equations of population genetics applied in the Durrett and Schmidt paper, that one may reasonably expect two specific co-ordinated mutations to achieve fixation in the timeframe of around 43.3 million years. When one considers the magnitude of the engineering fete, such a scenario is found to be devoid of credibility. Whales require an intra-abdominal counter current heat exchange system (the testis are inside the body right next to the muscles that generate heat during swimming), they need to possess a ball vertebra because the tail has to move up and down instead of side-to-side, they require a re-organisation of kidney tissue to facilitate the intake of salt water, they require a re-orientation of the fetus for giving birth under water, they require a modification of the mammary glands for the nursing of young under water, the forelimbs have to be transformed into flippers, the hindlimbs need to be substantially reduced, they require a special lung surfactant (the lung has to re-expand very rapidly upon coming up to the surface), etc etc.

Moreover, Michael Behe has shown (see chapter seven of The Edge of Evolution) that the evolution of protein-protein binding sites by Darwinian means is immensely improbable. And Douglas Axe, Robert Sauer, Sean Taylor and others have shown that the preponderance of evolutionarily relevant (i.e. functional) protein folds is astronomically rare within sequence space. These types of problems are only accentuated a thousand fold when one considers systems which, by their very nature, require multiple inter-dependent protein interactions in order to perform their functions.

Jason Rosenhouse also mentions the well-known Wilf and Ewens PNAS paper:

This paper by Wilf and Ewens, also mentioned in the post, puts some mathematical meat on the bones of Dawkins’ suggestion. They are working with probabilities only indirectly, and certainly were not trying to assign precise numerical values to specific evolutionary events.

The abstract of this paper reported,

Objections to Darwinian evolution are often based on the time required to carry out the necessary mutations. Seemingly, exponential numbers of mutations are needed. We show that such estimates ignore the effects of natural selection, and that the numbers of necessary mutations are thereby reduced to about K log L, rather than KL, where L is the length of the genomic “word,” and K is the number of possible “letters” that can occupy any position in the word. The required theory makes contact with the theory of radix-exchange sorting in theoretical computer science, and the asymptotic analysis of certain sums that occur there.

This sounds awfully like an attempt to demonstrate the probabilistic plausibility of Darwinism to me. We ID proponents employ probabilistic logic as well, in order to ascertain the likelihood of evolutionarily relevant innovations emerging by Darwinian means. Only we reach the opposite conclusions from those reached by Wilf and Ewens. Darwinists are happy for probabilistic reasoning to be employed only when it suits their purposes in vindicating Darwinism. When ID proponents want to use probabilistic arguments to falsify Darwinism, they won’t be having any of it.

Douglas Axe humorously noted at the time,

If you search the current issues of professional science journals, I doubt you’ll find any papers titled “The Moon Orbits the Earth” or “Copper Conducts Electricity.” Assertions like these would work as section headings in an elementary science textbook, but no scientist would consider them newsworthy, for the simple reason that they aren’t.

Things are different in evolutionary biology, though. Here is a field that somehow never outgrew the need to reiterate its most basic tenets, as though its practitioners never had enough confidence in them to let them stand on their own two feet.

Lee Spetner points out the crippling problems with the paper:

Their model does not mimic natural selection at all. In one generation, according to the model, some number of potentially adaptive mutations may occur, each most likely in a different individual. W&E postulate that these mutations remain in the population and are not changed. Contrary to their intention, this event is not yet evolution, because the mutations have occurred only in single individuals and have not become characteristic of the population. Moreover, W&E have ignored the important fact that a single mutation, even if it has a large selection coefficient, has a high probability of disappearing through random effects [Fisher 1958]. They allow further mutations only in those loci that have not mutated into the “superior” form. It is not clear if they intended that mutations be forbidden in those mutated loci only in those individuals that have the mutation or in other individuals as well. They have ignored the fact that evolution does not occur until an adaptive mutation has taken over the population and thereby becomes a characteristic of the population. Their letter-guessing game is more a parody of the evolutionary process than a model of it. They have not achieved their second goal either.

If Darwinism can’t even handle the trivial, then what chance does it have when it comes to the bigger problems such as building flagella? And if we can’t even evaluate the probabilistic feasibility of the Darwinian mechanism, how can we ever learn whether it is up to the task at hand? Whether they realize it or not, Pigliucci and his ilk have, in effect, rendered Darwinism unfalsifiable.

Comments
Because it provides an account of the distribution of the features of living things, by means of a mechanism that has actually been observed, in vivo. That doesn't mean that we have a specific theory about the evolution of every single feature of every single organism. Far from it.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, "But the theory does not depend for its support on their being a clear Darwinian account for every biological feature. What it depends on is the fit of the model to the data." But if the model fits the data then it should, if not must, provide an account for those biological features. If not, what good is it? It's like asking me to purchase a used car by telling me it looks and feels like a good car but not letting me turn the engine on to see if it actually works.lpadron
August 23, 2011
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Joseph: You say you were once a "true believer"; are you the same Joseph who came here to UD a couple years back and defended Darwinism? I must say I'm a little confused when I see your posts and then see that you've (apparently) adopted an ID perspective.PaV
August 23, 2011
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Elizabeth:
What would throw Darwinian theory into doubt would be a serious breakdown of nested phylogenies, in particular, the appearance of “solutions” from one lineage apparently transplanted into another.
Like wings on birds, bats, and insects? Like reptiles and octopi that change colors? Like echolocation in bats and dolphins? Like mammals shaped like fish? Like mammalian lungs and countless other features that apparently must have arisen more than once? Every known "solution" that appears in differing lineages has already been explained away as convergent evolution and the like. (There were niches in both fitness landscapes shaped like animals that use echolocation.) So really, wouldn't any other astounding similarity just get explained away? 'Wow, isn't this amazing that this evolved twice?' If anything, it would become the next amazing example of the power of evolution. Or are we setting ridiculously high standards for falsification, like pre-Cambrian rabbits? If a bird sprouted eight legs, started spinning webs and catching flies, then it would 'throw Darwinian theory into doubt?'ScottAndrews
August 23, 2011
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Darwin said his tree wouldn't exist if all the transitional forms were present today. Read the book. Convergent evolution is a problem for the tree, not for Darwinian evolution which doesn't predict a tree.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Adaptation can occur without nested phylogenies. And speciation is an ambiguous concept.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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"But his estimate of 10^30 generations to establish the conversion is based on a probability estimate, for which, as Jason Rosenhouse says, you need to define your probability space." What exactly do you mean by "probability space"?LivingstoneMorford
August 23, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle: "And, as Jason Rosenhouse says, correctly, IMO, this is simply not possible for a specific structure over long stretches of time, not least because over that time, the organism will have inhabited many different environments." Well, actually this argument is pretty self-defeating. Consider that one of the strongest arguments for common descent is the insertion sites of endogenous retroviruses: they display a nested pattern. And the odds of this occurring by coincidence is next to nil. But one could counter that the nested pattern displayed by ERVs actually is the result of chance, 'cause we can't calculate the probability of that pattern arising by chance 'cause over the time that the ERVs inserted themselves into various organisms, those organisms went through different environments and conditions. The same argument could be made with regards to molecular phylogenies.LivingstoneMorford
August 23, 2011
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Well, yes, it does, Joseph, because it says that adaptation occurs in lineages. Darwin didn't know much about the process of speciation but he was right about adaptation, and speciation occurs when two subpopulations adapt independently.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Well the allged “tree” is an illusion because as darwin even said if all the forms that ever lived were still around we wouldn’t have that pattern.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
Also the theory of evolution is absolutely silent on divergence for by convergence- that is crossings of once diverged lines. That means the mechanism “namely replication with heritable variance in the ability to survive the current environment” does not produce the pattern described.
Nor here :) Are you saying convergent evolution is a problem for Darwinian evolution? If so, not unless the convergent phenotypic "solutions" have extremely similar genotypic underpinnings.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Darwinism doesn't predict nested phylogenies. It can live with or without them. The whole problem is Darwinism and NDE cannot be tested on any level. Our ignorance is the only reason they remain.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Elizabeth:
Well, I guess two things, Joseph: one is the demonstration that “genetic accidents”, when coupled with an environment in which some variants do better than others, results in adaptation,
1- Question begging pertaing to "genetic accidents" 2- YECs even accept that
and the other is the observation that biological organisms, both extant and in the fossile record, can be placed on a branching tree, whereby along any given lineage we see gradual change, but resulting in huge variety at the “twigs” of the tree.
Well the allged "tree" is an illusion because as darwin even said if all the forms that ever lived were still around we wouldn't have that pattern. Also the theory of evolution is absolutely silent on divergence for by convergence- that is crossings of once diverged lines. That means the mechanism "namely replication with heritable variance in the ability to survive the current environment" does not produce the pattern described. So the bottom line is you don't have any evidence that demonstrates genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful multi-part systems and you don't have any evidence that a population of fish can "evolve" into something other than fish. What we actually observe occurring cannot be extrapolated, in any way, to meet the grand claims of evolutionism.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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As for Behe's question: it would be difficult to falsify. But the theory does not depend for its support on their being a clear Darwinian account for every biological feature. What it depends on is the fit of the model to the data. What would throw Darwinian theory into doubt would be a serious breakdown of nested phylogenies, in particular, the appearance of "solutions" from one lineage apparently transplanted into another. This would suggest intelligent interference, and, indeed, our distant descendents may well infer our own genetic engineers from precisely this kind of evidence. I don't myself think that "falsification" is a good test of whether a theory is scientific or not. Science doesn't actually proceed by falsification - it proceeds by fitting models to data. If an alternative model fit the data better, that would be a challenge to Darwinian theory, and indeed, many such challenges are thrown up regularly, which is why the theory is subject to constant adjustment, even though the basic principle so far remains.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Well, I guess two things, Joseph: one is the demonstration that "genetic accidents", when coupled with an environment in which some variants do better than others, results in adaptation, and the other is the observation that biological organisms, both extant and in the fossile record, can be placed on a branching tree, whereby along any given lineage we see gradual change, but resulting in huge variety at the "twigs" of the tree. So we have an observed pattern, namely a branching tree, and a mechanism, namely replication with heritable variance in the ability to survive the current environment, that could account for it, and indeed, is actually observed occurring.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Well Elizabeth I was a true believer until I started looking at the "evidence". That said I may have over-looked something but if I did it must be a well-kept secret. So what had convinced you that genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful multi-part systems and change a fish into an amphibian (yes over eons of years and generations) or brine shrimp-like organisms (technically a shellfish) into insects? Or as Dr Behe asked many years ago:
Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?
Crickets sans Buddy...Joseph
August 23, 2011
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I keep saying it because it is true. There isn’t any evidence that genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful multi-part systems, never-mind change a fish into an amphibian or a shell-fish into an insect.
Well, clearly there is no evidence that has convinced you, but it simply isn't true that there is no evidence. Not that arthropods are descended from shellfish anyway.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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I keep saying it because it is true. There isn't any evidence that genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful multi-part systems, never-mind change a fish into an amphibian or a shell-fish into an insect. And to me the use of probabilities is moot until someone can demonstrate a feasibility.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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I'm not quite sure why you keep saying that there isn't any evidence to support the "grand claims of evolutionism". What claims are you thinking of? And any invalid use of probabilities needs to be criticised, whether it's by "us" or "them" surely?Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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For the moderator: I'm William J. Murray & Meleagar. I'll be using this name/account exclusively from now on to resolve my dual-identity work/home issue with Wordpress. Sorry for the confusion.William J Murray
August 23, 2011
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Yes, I've read it :) But his estimate of 10^30 generations to establish the conversion is based on a probability estimate, for which, as Jason Rosenhouse says, you need to define your probability space. And, as Jason Rosenhouse says, correctly, IMO, this is simply not possible for a specific structure over long stretches of time, not least because over that time, the organism will have inhabited many different environments.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Every argument that ends up with a Darwinist claiming that there isn't a rigorous probabilistic model that can falsify the capacity of RM* and NS* to acquire the target in question is a de facto admission that no model exists that can demonstrate RM* and NS* up to that same task. Either a metric exists that can show RM* & NS* up to the macroevolutionary task, or not; if not, it cannot be anything other than a hasty generalization. If we don't know what the proper search space is for those targets in question, and we dont know what the limitations to the ability of RM* and NS* are, then it cannot be said that RM* and NS* can search the space and acquire the target, and it certainly cannot be claimed to be a scientific fact that RM* and NS* actually acquired those targets.William J Murray
August 23, 2011
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Also I should add that the reason probabities are used is because there isn't any evidence, beyond the post & ad hoc, to support the grand claims of evolutionism. IOW the very use of probabilities at least gives "them" the benefit of the doubt. And "they" are complaining about that?Joseph
August 23, 2011
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I'm judging by the context of your citation that you mean the one he did with Ann Gauger. The purpose of that calculation was to estimate how many mutations were required to convert Kbl to BioF function. This fits into the context of his work on bacterial population genetics, which demonstrates the impotence of neo-Darwinism to traverse distances of more than a small handful of non-adaptive mutations. I recommend reading the paper for the specific calculations and means by which he came to those conclusions.Jonathan M
August 23, 2011
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I cited a few of Axe's papers. To which are you referring?Jonathan M
August 23, 2011
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OK, thanks. Jason Rosenhouse writes:
The basic point here is very simple. A proper probability calculation begins with the definition of a probability space, which means roughly that you must have a grasp on all of the things that might happen and also on the probabilities with which those events occur. There are many contexts in evolutionary biology where that can be done. In population genetics, for example, we typically narrow our focus to small numbers of loci over short periods of time, which permits us to get a grip on all of the relevant variables. This is far different from trying to work out precise probabilities for specific structures that evolved over vast stretches of time. In such situations we have no hope of getting a grip on everything.
How did Axe define his probability space for this calculation?Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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"Non-adaptive" is probably a better choice of word there.Jonathan M
August 23, 2011
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jonathan: What does this mean:
requires at least seven co-ordinated mutations
? It's the word "co-ordinated" I am curious about. Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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But notice that neither they, nor Carroll, were trying to calculate the probability of evolving a flagellum or anything remotely like that.
That is because they can't as they don't even know if such a thing is even feasible. THAT is the whole problem.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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