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Evolution driven by laws? Not random mutations?

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So claims a recent book, Arrival of the Fittest, by Andreas Wagner, professor of evolutionary biology at U Zurich in Switzerland (also associated with the Santa Fe Institute). He lectures worldwide and is a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences.

From the book announcement:

Can random mutations over a mere 3.8 billion years solely be responsible for wings, eyeballs, knees, camouflage, lactose digestion, photosynthesis, and the rest of nature’s creative marvels? And if the answer is no, what is the mechanism that explains evolution’s speed and efficiency?

In Arrival of the Fittest, renowned evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner draws on over fifteen years of research to present the missing piece in Darwin’s theory. Using experimental and computational technologies that were heretofore unimagined, he has found that adaptations are not just driven by chance, but by a set of laws that allow nature to discover new molecules and mechanisms in a fraction of the time that random variation would take.

From a review (which is careful to note that it is not a religious argument):

The question “how does nature innovate?” often elicits a succinct but unsatisfying response – random mutations. Andreas Wagner first illustrates why random mutations alone cannot be the cause of innovations – the search space for innovations, be it at the level of genes, protein, or metabolic reactions is too large that makes the probability of stumbling upon all the innovations needed to make a little fly (let alone humans) too low to have occurred within the time span the universe has been around.

He then shows some of the fundamental hidden principles that can actually make innovations possible for natural selection to then select and preserve those innovations.

Like interacting parallel worlds, this would be momentous news if it is true. But someone is going to have to read the book and assess the strength of the laws advanced.

One thing for sure, if an establishment figure can safely write this kind of thing, Darwin’s theory is coming under more serious fire than ever. But we knew, of course, when Nature published an article on the growing dissent within the ranks about Darwinism.

In origin of life research, there has long been a law vs. chance controversy. For example, Does nature just “naturally” produce life? vs. Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

Note: You may have to apprise your old schoolmarm that Darwin’s theory* is “natural selection acting on random mutations,” not “evolution” in general. It is the only theory that claims sheer randomness can lead to creativity, in conflict with information theory. See also: Being as Communion.

*(or neo-Darwinism, or whatever you call what the Darwin-in-the-schools lobby is promoting or Evolution Sunday is celebrating).*

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Comments
Enkidu: "Yes, they can. Unless you make the definition of dFSCI “a property that can only be achieved through a designing intelligence” in which case you’re circular again." No. In my definition of dFSCI there is no such thing. And there are no "empirically observed evolutionary processes" which can produce DNA sequences that meet my definition of dFSCI. You can go on stating falsities. They remain falsities.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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phoodoo "When you say statements like this, it appears that you really have kept up much with what is going on in evolutionary biology. Yes, I have kept up but I haven't seen a single thing on dFSCI. I'd be happy to read any and all published scientific papers that say dFSCI provide solid evidence for an Intelligent Designer of life. Can you please supply those references? Thanks!Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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I heard Richard Dawkins not too long ago, when asked what revelations in science would really shake his worldview, respond that if epigenetics turned out to truly have the power to influence more than one or two generation of offspring, then he would have to rethink his whole view about life. He must have said this before reading much of the current scientific literature. Richard, I am looking forward to seeing the new you, welcome in.phoodoo
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: The reasoning you develop is essentially correct. There is only one mistake. You must drop "human" from the third phrase. It is design which is independently defined. Design is any process where the specific form in the object is purposefully outputted by a conscious intelligent agent from a conscious representation. What we are defining here is the origin of the information, not the nature of the conscious intelligent agent (except for being a conscious intelligent agent). Any object whose form comes from a conscious intelligent purposeful representation is designed. In the definition of design there is no logic restriction to humans. With that correction, the reasoning is fine. But not precise. It lacks a specific definition of "Powered flight". And it would refer only to a subset of designed machines (powered flight machines). In particular, it lacks an objective definition of what a machine is. None of those limits is present in my definition based on dFSCI.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio Enkidu: “Empirically observed evolutionary processes can produce DNA sequences that meet your definition of dFSCI.” No. They can’t. Yes, they can. Unless you make the definition of dFSCI "a property that can only be achieved through a designing intelligence" in which case you're circular again. I must say it's interesting that your logic indicates humans designed powered flight into birds and bats. You should put that in the paper when you publish too. :)Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu, "Doesn’t the scientific community deserve to know how wrong it’s been all these years?" When you say statements like this, it appears that you really have kept up much with what is going on in evolutionary biology. When Nature magazine runs an article entitled : "Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?", Nature Magazine-the biggest Darwinan cheerleading publication there is!, clearly they are searching to find out what has been wrong all these years! I can't imagine there is an active biologist in the country, who has looked at the details, who does not have some doubt about the explanation for the mechanics of evolution (unless their name is Jerry Coyne, and they are just angry at God). Look around, the voices are growing.phoodoo
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio: "It is in the form: Property X can be observed in a number of objects. Of those objects, only in some cases we can ascertain independently the origin of the object itself. In all those cases, the origin is Y. Y is not defined in reference to X (that would create the circularity). Our problem is to infer an origin for the other objects exhibiting X, and whose origin is not known independently. There is no object exhibiting X for which an origin different from Y is known independently. Therefore, we infer Y as a good explanation for the origin of Y. ( I assume that's a typo and you meant X) You say that's a valid argument? Let property X = powered, heavier than air flight. Let property Y = human design That gives us Powered flight can be observed in a number of objects (airplanes, birds, bats) Of those objects, only in some cases (airplanes) we can ascertain independently the origin of the object itself. In all those cases, the origin is human design. Human design is not defined in reference to powered flight (that would create the circularity). Our problem is to infer an origin for the other objects exhibiting powered flight (birds, bats), and whose origin is not known independently. There is no object exhibiting powered for which an origin different from human design is known independently. Therefore, we infer human design as a good explanation for the origin of powered flight in birds and bats. gpuccio. gun. foot. BANG! :)Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: Just for the record, if your argument is that "Empirically observed evolutionary processes can produce DNA sequences that meet your definition of dFSCI" that would make my argument wrong, but not circular. You have to decide yourself. I can show that you are wrong about the circularity (very easy). Or I can show that you are wrong about "empirically observed evolutionary processes which can produce DNA sequences that meet my definition of dFSCI". It just requires a little more time. But you must decide yourself. Either my reasoning is circular (IOWs, it is a logical fallacy, and there is no empirical argument at call) or it is empirically wrong (it is logically correct, but it can be empirically falsified). Decide yourself. Which is which?gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: "Empirically observed evolutionary processes can produce DNA sequences that meet your definition of dFSCI." No. They can't.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio: "What is true is that the only independently known source of dFSCI is human design." That is a false statement. Empirically observed evolutionary processes can produce DNA sequences that meet your definition of dFSCI. Publication date? It's not fair to keep this magnificent idea all to yourself now is it? Doesn't the scientific community deserve to know how wrong it's been all these years?Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: What is true is that the only independently known source of dFSCI is human design. This is my argument, and it is true. And it is not circular. It is in the form: Property X can be observed in a number of objects. Of those objects, only in some cases we can ascertain independently the origin of the object itself. In all those cases, the origin is Y. Y is not defined in reference to X (that would create the circularity). Our problem is to infer an origin for the other objects exhibiting X, and whose origin is not known independently. There is no object exhibiting X for which an origin different from Y is known independently. Therefore, we infer Y as a good explanation for the origin of Y. This reasoning is not circular. And what you say is wrong.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio: "Indeed, in the form you gave it would be circular, because it is not true that “The only powered flying machines we know about are human designed” Just as it is not true that "the only source of dFSCI we know about is human intelligence". I'm glad you finally admit to the circularity of your argument. When's your publication date again and with which journals? I want to be sure to reserve my copies.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: To be in a form tha means something, your first example should really be: "“1.The only powered flying machines whose origin we know are human designed 2.Birds are powered flying machines 3.Therefore birds are designed.” Indeed, in the form you gave it would be circular, because it is not true that "The only powered flying machines we know about are human designed". I am sorry that I did not catch immediately your circularity.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio: "I am amazed at the depth of your thinking." And I at yours. It takes someone really special to invent his own definitions and fatally flawed logic then claim they falsify one of the most important scientific theories of all time. So when will you be submitting this paradigm changing idea to any mainstream journals for publication?Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Joe: "No. By Crick’s definition of biological information the DNA in living organisms contains CSI/ dFSCI." Crick's definition of information says nothing about any CSI or dFSCI. Those are terms pushed only by the ID movement and used merely as rhetorical devices. They have zero applicability to anything in the real scientific world.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu: I will not spend useful time to discuss with you. You don't even know what "circularity" means, and come here to discuss of circularity. None of the examples you present is circular. Let's take the first one: "1.The only powered flying machines we know about are human designed 2.Birds are powered flying machines 3.Therefore birds are designed." It may be true or not, acceptable or not, but it is not circular. To be circular, it should be something like the following: 1.A bird is a designed object which can fly. 2.Birds can fly. 3.Therefore, birds are designed objects which can fly. From Wikipedia: "Begging the question means "assuming the conclusion (of an argument)", a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy where the conclusion that one is attempting to prove is included in the initial premises of an argument, often in an indirect way that conceals this fact.[1]" And: "Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[2] Begging the question is closely related to circular reasoning, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[3]" When do you plan on learning what words mean before criticizing others with them? It is also very telling that in your examples you had to use the word "machine", which even in common language implies design. Ah, and you also used "rotary propulsion motor". I am amazed at the depth of your thinking.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu:
You looked at DNA and defined one of its properties to be your “dFSCI”.
No. By Crick's definition of biological information the DNA in living organisms contains CSI/ dFSCI.Joe
November 2, 2014
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gpuccio at 235 said Sorry for your confusion. dFSCI is a term I use, but it is a subset of CSI. The point is that it restricts specification to functional specification, which I have defined with some detail, and to digital forms of information. Keith is only partially right. It is indeed a subset, and not a “slightly modified version”. And, obviously, there are no flaws in the concepts of CSI and dFSCI. Least of all any circularity (I have answered in detail keith’s “argument” here Hi gpuccio, thanks for the reply. I had a quick look at your link and I'm sorry to say the circularity of the argument sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb. You looked at DNA and defined one of its properties to be your "dFSCI". Seems like you merely added quite a bit of superfluous technical jargon to the vague CSI definition. You defined dFSCI to be only producible by a human intelligence. Then you use your definitions to demonstrate your assertions. Completely circular. You could do the same with any property you find in life, i.e. 1.The only powered flying machines we know about are human designed 2.Birds are powered flying machines 3.Therefore birds are designed. or 1.The only undersea deep diving machines we know about are human designed 2.Whales are undersea deep diving machines 3.Therefore whales are designed are the same argument as 1.The only cases of dFSCI we know about are human designed 2.DNA is full of dFSCI 3.Therefore DNA is designed. All you have done is try to add some "window dressing" formality to the already discarded Creationist argument 1.The only rotary propulsion motors we know about were human designed 2.Bacteria flagella are rotary propulsion motors 3.Therefore flagella are designed. Of course I could be wrong. When do you plan on submitting this work to any scientific or mathematics journals for review and publication?Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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And yet it somehow refutes Durston, et al?Joe
November 2, 2014
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Joe: True. But it is irrelevant also because it applies intelligent selection to random mutation, IOWs intentional protein engineering.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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Details- how did vision systems evolve? How many mutations did it take? How many genes were involved? How many generations did it take? Unguided evolution cannot answer anything even though it is alleged to have a step-by-step process for constructing biological systems. That is why evos are forced to ignorantly attack ID and IDistsJoe
November 2, 2014
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Joe, please go on in detail about “the starting point were well-diversified populations- more than what exists today.”
LoL! Nice to see that you can't even follow along. I said that because that is the only way unguided evolution can explain the diversity of life observed today. Man you are dull.Joe
November 2, 2014
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astroman- please go on in detain about the alleged theory of evolution- where is it? Who wrote it? When? Why are you ignorant about the relationship between the blind watchmaker thesis and evolution? I will have more questions later.Joe
November 2, 2014
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Joe, please go on in detail about "the starting point were well-diversified populations- more than what exists today." For example, where did those populations come from, and how long ago? What sort of organisms were they? Why were there more populations then than there are now? While those populations existed, did they evolve? Were those populations affected by diseases and/or deformities? If so, what type of diseases and/or deformities? I may have more questions later.Astroman
November 2, 2014
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The Szostak paper is irrelevant because it only deals with small polypeptides- 80 amino acids- and it only deals with binding to ATP. The proteins did NOT evolve via unguided evolution.Joe
November 2, 2014
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Astroman: You say: "gpuccio said to Me_Think: “Excerpts have been quoted here, and comments made. It is my privilege, and anyone else’s on this blog, to comment on those things. Reasonably, and with the necessary cautions.” But to me he said: “But, as I said, it is not fair to comment without knowing the details of the argument. In the meantime, let’s leave the propaganda speakers to their “work”.” You can’t seem to make up your mind. Apparently it’s okay for ID proponents to comment about the book even though they haven’t read it and don’t know its details, but it’s not okay for ID opponents, e.g. Keith S. gpuccio, have you read the book? Do you know its details? Were the proper precautions taken by News (Denyse O’Leary) and other ID proponents before posting their opinions based only on the book announcement and their insatiable desire to find flaws in Evolutionary Theory?" I don't know if you just want to play games. I am not interested. I have not read the book. I have read what you have read here: the quotes and the comments of those who have read part of the book. And I have commented on those things. With what I consider reasonable caution. That's all.gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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Alan: " I think I should get the book so gpuucio does not need to hear “Szostak paper” again!" Be my guest! Anything will be better than the Szostak paper :) OK, I must admit that the Wagner book could take its place as the best false argument, but we will have to wait and see. I am refraining from commenting too much, I don't want to disturb your brief moment of happiness. You really need it!gpuccio
November 2, 2014
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The evolutionary position is so weak they have to deny theirs is the blind watchmaker thesis. How they think that helps, I don't know.Joe
November 2, 2014
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Less talky, more sciencey, evos! Natural selection has proven to be impotent. Genetic drift doesn't help you. You don't have a mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life unless the starting point were well-diversified populations- more than what exists today.Joe
November 2, 2014
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astroman:
Denton describes himself as agnostic but is clearly a creationist of some flavor.
Cuz an anonymous butt sez so
Berlinski also describes himself as agnostic but is clearly a creationist of some flavor,
Anonymous sez so. Really astro- is that the best you can do?Joe
November 2, 2014
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