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Evolution driven by laws? Not random mutations?

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So claims a recent book, Arrival of the Fittest, by Andreas Wagner, professor of evolutionary biology at U Zurich in Switzerland (also associated with the Santa Fe Institute). He lectures worldwide and is a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences.

From the book announcement:

Can random mutations over a mere 3.8 billion years solely be responsible for wings, eyeballs, knees, camouflage, lactose digestion, photosynthesis, and the rest of nature’s creative marvels? And if the answer is no, what is the mechanism that explains evolution’s speed and efficiency?

In Arrival of the Fittest, renowned evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner draws on over fifteen years of research to present the missing piece in Darwin’s theory. Using experimental and computational technologies that were heretofore unimagined, he has found that adaptations are not just driven by chance, but by a set of laws that allow nature to discover new molecules and mechanisms in a fraction of the time that random variation would take.

From a review (which is careful to note that it is not a religious argument):

The question “how does nature innovate?” often elicits a succinct but unsatisfying response – random mutations. Andreas Wagner first illustrates why random mutations alone cannot be the cause of innovations – the search space for innovations, be it at the level of genes, protein, or metabolic reactions is too large that makes the probability of stumbling upon all the innovations needed to make a little fly (let alone humans) too low to have occurred within the time span the universe has been around.

He then shows some of the fundamental hidden principles that can actually make innovations possible for natural selection to then select and preserve those innovations.

Like interacting parallel worlds, this would be momentous news if it is true. But someone is going to have to read the book and assess the strength of the laws advanced.

One thing for sure, if an establishment figure can safely write this kind of thing, Darwin’s theory is coming under more serious fire than ever. But we knew, of course, when Nature published an article on the growing dissent within the ranks about Darwinism.

In origin of life research, there has long been a law vs. chance controversy. For example, Does nature just “naturally” produce life? vs. Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

Note: You may have to apprise your old schoolmarm that Darwin’s theory* is “natural selection acting on random mutations,” not “evolution” in general. It is the only theory that claims sheer randomness can lead to creativity, in conflict with information theory. See also: Being as Communion.

*(or neo-Darwinism, or whatever you call what the Darwin-in-the-schools lobby is promoting or Evolution Sunday is celebrating).*

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Comments
Vishnu,
Nice try but Mung’s obvious objective was to try and A) get you to actually read the book and/or B) asked if you if had read the book.
No, Mung's objective was to argue that Wagner's book was non-Darwinian, when it clearly isn't. I repeat:
Vishnu,
You made the accusation that Mung was preferring the announcement contents over the book,
No. Here’s what I actually wrote:
All you have to do is read the interview to see that the book announcement is hype.
But since you insist on being spoon-fed, open wide for the choo-choo train. I quoted the interview with Wagner, and wrote:
There is nothing anti-Darwinian about Wagner’s thesis. DNA changes randomly, as he stresses. It’s nothing but selection working on random mutations.
Mung quoted the book announcement, and wrote:
That’s about as non-darwinian as you can get.
I went by Wagner’s words, and Mung went by the book announcement. You foolishly bought into Mung’s tall tale.
keith s
November 1, 2014
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KF: "PS: I just saw an assertion by DD that targets a particular objector rather personally, that is well over the line of civility, DD." Onlookers, I am glad to see that MF has finally banned one of the many obviously abusive ID supporters, rather than concentrating on loosely inferred insults by ID opponents. I commend him for this action. I will actually praise him when he bans Joe.william spearshake
November 1, 2014
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Onlookers, notice the confident manner assertions of rhetorical victory by design objectors unable to provide empirical observation rooted evidence that blind chance and mechanical necessity can and do in our experience produce FSCO/I with any reasonable likelihood. KF PS: I just saw an assertion by DD that targets a particular objector rather personally, that is well over the line of civility, DD.kairosfocus
November 1, 2014
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A: you don't know what you are talking about. Denton, wrote his key work in 1986 or so as an agnostic, and in recent years -- as indicated -- has been shifting views to some sort of pantheism I think, probably under the influence of the pattern of evidence and his inclinations. Berlinski is simply not a Bible-believing Creationist of any stripe, he is an agnostic or atheist. Hoyle is generally reckoned a lifelong atheist, though he may well have trended agnostic in the years leading to his death in the late 90's. Plato, way back, was a philosophical pioneer. Flew was the leading philosophical atheist in the world for decades, but under the impact of design evidence which he came to accept, became a deist. I should note, that atheism is a bit of a slippery term because of the problem of direct or implied knowledge-claims of the non existence of God. That sort of universal negative claim is very hard for a finite and fallible thinker to back up and leads to some challenging philosophical hot water. That holds also for those who try the claim to be without belief in God, in a context of implying they know good reason for such disbelief; especially post Plantinga's free will defense that irretrievably shattered the deductive form of the argument from evil and counter-weighted the inductive form. As I noted, it is possible and in fact actual in some cases to be both atheist and design thinker. Some form of stoicism seems to be involved. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2014
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DavidD:
Why don’t we discuss your Gay Porn website Alan and your published books on the homosexual lifestyle from the French Perspective. Let’s talk about how these debates have nothing to do with science for you but rather your hatred of other’s religious worldview which conflicts with your own.
This entire thread has been a train wreck for the IDers, but David's comment takes the cake.keith s
November 1, 2014
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Phoodoo,
Now, since you don’t think that Wagner is introducing anything new, and that we have know for a while that random mutations can not account for all the diversity we see in life, What is the definition of the Theory of Evolution?
That's an easy one. Wagner is not claiming that random mutations don't account for the diversity of life. Read the quote that Keith S. reproduced way back at the top of the thread.wd400
November 1, 2014
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k, Denton describes himself as agnostic but is clearly a creationist of some flavor. Berlinski also describes himself as agnostic but is clearly a creationist of some flavor, and even though he strongly criticizes Evolutionary Theory he "does not openly avow intelligent design and describes his relationship with the idea as: "warm but distant. It's the same attitude that I display in public toward my ex-wives."" (quoted from Wikipedia) According to hoylehistory.com: "Hoyle was reportedly an atheist during most of his early life, but became agnostic when he found that he could not feel comfortable trying to explain the finer workings of physics and the Universe as simply “an accident.”" Besides, he's been dead for over 13 years and I seriously doubt that he ever accepted or promoted "Intelligent Design" as it is currently marketed. k, you originally said: “Actually, atheists and the like can be design thinkers, and some are.” And I responded with: "Please name several or more atheists who accept “Intelligent Design”. Can you name even one?" You said atheists and I asked you to name atheists. I'm still waiting. And can you show me that the non-atheists Denton and Berlinski accept and promote your particular version of "Intelligent Design"? Can you show that any ID proponents besides you even understand your version of "Intelligent Design"? P.S. To see you, a person who constantly appeals to authority, complain about appeals to authority is pretty funny, especially since you also portray yourself as a profound authority on many subjects. P.P.S. Who or what do you mean by "and the like" in "atheists and the like"? Are you referring to allegedly evil sinners who don't hold your Christian, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, ID-Creation beliefs?Astroman
November 1, 2014
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Vishnu: I quoted the interview with Wagner... Mung quoted the book announcement... "That’s about as non-darwinian as you can get."... I went by Wagner’s words, and Mung went by the book announcement.
Nice try but Mung's obvious objective was to try and A) get you to actually read the book and/or B) asked if you if had read the book. Listening to an interview is not reading the book. I've listened to a lot of interviews in my life, and it's not like reading the book. Some people don't interview well or there is incomplete information or context to develop the ideas that are in the book. That's why people write books and don't merely do interviews. Mung's objective was clear. So, keiths, have you actually read the book?Vishnu
November 1, 2014
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Bystander why did you truncate the Darwin quote? Here is the whole thing
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility
The first sentence is merely used as a framing device. The explanation follows immediately afterwards. Darwin has been proved right because such numerous gradations in eye complexity have indeed been found in nature. Quoting just the first sentence paints a false and misleading picture of Darwin's views. I'm sure that was just an accidental oversight on your part and that you'll do better in the future.Enkidu
November 1, 2014
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Ok Back on track. Here's what Darwin says about Natural selection: Darwin (1872), chapter 6, page 170. To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.the bystander
November 1, 2014
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DavidD said "Why don’t we discuss your Gay Porn website Alan and your published books on the homosexual lifestyle from the French Perspective." How does making slurs like that further the Intelligent Design cause? Seems like the kind of remark a man with no valid argument would make.Enkidu
November 1, 2014
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DavidD writes:
Why don’t we discuss your Gay Porn website Alan and your published books on the homosexual lifestyle from the French Perspective. Let’s talk about how these debates have nothing to do with science for you but rather your hatred of other’s religious worldview which conflicts with your own. Explain to us how Science is a nothing more than a lazy man’s post for you to lean on.
I'd certainly be interested in learning more about my gay porn website and books I have written. Where are you getting this information, David, and why aren't I getting the revenues? A variation on the old "atheists hate God" routine. Why is that relevant to the scientific theory of ID? I thought ID was scientific, not religious.Alan Fox
November 1, 2014
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And you can try Michael Denton on the Agnostic trending Pantheist/ Panentheist — he authored one of the seminal works that directly led to the rise of a modern design theory.
One of the things that Denton did was separate evolution into general and special evolution. Special evolution was essentially modern day genetics which no one disputes as relevant and valuable for things like medicine or agriculture but not applicable to the real evolution debate. General evolution is where the real debate occurs. It is the macro-evolution of Darwin or the creation of new species with novel capabilities. What we are getting is that the anti-ID people espousing the special evolution but failing to address the core issue of general evolution.jerry
November 1, 2014
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10-4. My apologies for getting caught up in their game. I am still too willing to fight. I will get over it. My apologies to Uncommon Descent. I will search for a better way to respond to the crap hurled at us.Joe
November 1, 2014
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Joe, please refrain from namecalling and other trollish tactics. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2014
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A, passed back again. Try first, foremost Sir Fred Hoyle, Nobel Prize equivalent holding astrophysicist, on the fine tuning of the cosmos, monkeying with physics and chemistry, and the passage in his Omni Lec where he used the term Intelligent Design, that may well be the direct root of the term. Then, go have a look at a certain DI fellow, David Berlinski [BTW of Jewish background]. And you can try Michael Denton on the Agnostic trending Pantheist/ Panentheist -- he authored one of the seminal works that directly led to the rise of a modern design theory. The world of thought is a lot more complex than the simplistic agitprop picture painted by NCSE et al. BTW, if you take time to read The Laws Bk X, by Plato, you will see how as a pagan philosopher he first carefully and subtly distinguishes himself from classic paganism [he was not going to go the Court ordered hemlock drink route] then proceeds to make a first design inference argument, ending up with what would be a start point for what would be called the God of the Philosophers. On a cosmological design inference -- and BTW back on this thread's focus, an inference to laws that wrote OOL and drove evo of life by programming it into physics, chemistry etc as shaping forces and materials of nature is a cosmological front loading hypothesis, one that invites a design of nature inference that would have astonished Hoyle. In short, your plain hostility to Bible-believing Evangelical Christians, and an obvious overdose of fever swamp indoctrination are leading you far astray. KF PS: Just for reference, here is that worldviews 101 argument again. PPS: I simply have no interest in peer reviewed publications, beyond what happens with a public discussion. There are dozens of such, and the underlying argument by appeal to authority runs into the problem that no peer reviewed panel or other authority is better than underlying facts, reasoning and assumptions. So, what, exactly on the merits do you have to object to that undermines the fact that on trillions of cases FSCO/I where we see it being made, is a reliable sign of design -- intelligently directed configuration -- as causal process? Or, to the point that on inference to best current causal explanation, FSCO/I is therefore a reliable sign of design? What is your objection to the point that starting from Darwin's pond or the like, the vera causa grounded explanation for gated, encapsulated metabolising life using coded genetic info and execution machines such as ribosomes and with a von Neumann self replicator is that the FSCO/I in that is best explained on design? Or, that the further explanation for that in major body plans is the same? Other than, open and brazen or by the back door locking out of design by a priori evolutionary materialism or some fellow traveller ideology?kairosfocus
November 1, 2014
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Run away, astroboy, run away. It's the evo thing to do when faced with reality...Joe
November 1, 2014
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astro-projecdtionist:
Your insecurities and desire for authority are obvious.
Nice projection. By some authority only is there an evolutionary theory. By your insecurities blind watchmaker evolution is not the alleged evolutionary theory. Nice one astro...Joe
November 1, 2014
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astroboy:
Joe, what have you won?
I won by the fact that blind watchmaker evolution is the alleged evolutionary theory and it is bogus because it is untestable.Joe
November 1, 2014
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For astroman:
One of the central ideas in the conventional approach to evolutionary change is that DNA alterations are accidental- they arise from unavoidable errors in the replication process or from physio-chemical damage to DNA molecules.- James Shapiro, "Evolution: A View friom the 21st Century", page 12 (2011)
Just more support for my claim.Joe
November 1, 2014
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Recombination is indeed basic genetics, but it also relevant to evolutionary biology. The tension between recombination and selection, for instance, is the most important question to understanding speciation. Mung’s mistake above, where he seems to treat each individual as a seperate entity unlinked to others is another example or the concepts relevance.
It is indeed part of genetics and part of evolution no matter how one defines the term evolution but it only leads to trivial changes in life forms over eons and thus is not a factor in the overall debate. To imply so is a diversion from the real debate. If one disagrees then they are obliged to provide evidence that it has led to anything meaningful. Will Provine said he had faith that these small changes led to larger meaningful changes. He had no evidence and all he had was his faith and hope that it would some day be proven. It is an example of an atheist having both faith and hope but essentially no charity.jerry
November 1, 2014
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Joe said: "And I won." Joe, what have you won? Your distorted view of winning is all that matters to you, isn't it? Your insecurities and desire for authority are obvious.Astroman
November 1, 2014
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astroman:
He keeps playing worn out games with that term.
That is your uneducated opinion.Joe
November 1, 2014
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astroman:
Your persistence in being evasive and moving goal posts is noted. I didn’t ask about “evolutionism” or what “evos” do or don’t do.
That is what the search refers to- evolutionism, duh.
Are you saying that kairosfocus and all other ID proponents who go on and on about searches are wrong?
You are dense. They do so in the context of evolutionsim and yes, they are wrong as evolutionism is not a search. By calling it a search they are giving evolutionism an undeserved boost. OTOH intelligent design evolution would be a guided search.Joe
November 1, 2014
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astro:
I never said that “blind watchmaker” is my position,
So you don't accept unguided evolution. The alleged theory of evolution is blind watchmaker evolution.
and you’re the one who erroneously keeps tossing the term “blind watchmaker” into the debate as though it is synonymous with Evolutionary Theory.
It is synonymous with the alleged evolutionary theory.Joe
November 1, 2014
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DavidD, I never said that Joe invented the term "blind watchmaker". He keeps playing worn out games with that term. Who is the "religious clergyman" that you're referring to and what makes you think that he's mine?Astroman
November 1, 2014
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Joe asked: " Are you now admitting your position isn’t relevant?" I never said that "blind watchmaker" is my position, and you're the one who erroneously keeps tossing the term "blind watchmaker" into the debate as though it is synonymous with Evolutionary Theory.Astroman
November 1, 2014
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Joe said: "They are wrt evolutionism. Even Dembski now acknowledges that. However they are giving it the benefit of the doubt by calling it a search and at least attempting to model it. That is far more than evos do." Your persistence in being evasive and moving goal posts is noted. I didn't ask about "evolutionism" or what "evos" do or don't do. I'll try again: Joe, please explain what you mean. Are you saying that kairosfocus and all other ID proponents who go on and on about searches are wrong? Are they wrong in claiming that searches are involved in evolution? Are they wrong in the way they describe searches in evolution? Are you saying something else? If so, please be specific, and what exactly is it that Dembski now acknowledges?Astroman
November 1, 2014
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Thank you DavidD- they really think I invented it because they call it "Joe's strawman". Amazing...Joe
November 1, 2014
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Astroman "Joe, your blind watchmaker games were played out long ago. Try something that’s new and relevant." Joe's not the one who invented and insists upon "Blindwatch Maker" evolution, one of your religious clergyman did that. He keeps asking for proof, but all he gets is backwash.DavidD
November 1, 2014
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