Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh!

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In this week’s New Scientist, there is an article about gravity that deals with a string theorist’s reformulation of gravity as an entropic force. This reformulation describes gravity as an emergent property of space, time and matter, and NOT as a physical force itself.

Here’s a quote from the actual article:

Of course, Einstein’s geometric description of gravity is beatiful, and in a certain way compelling. Geometry appeals to the visual part of our minds, and is amazingly powerful in summarizing many aspects of a physical problem. Presumably this explains why we, as a community, have been so reluctant to give up the geometric formulation of gravity as being fundamental. But it is inevitable we do so. If gravity is emergent, so is space time geometry. Einstein tied these two concepts together, and both have to be given up if we want to understand one or the other at a more fundamental level.

The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged.

I will simply add that my own musings on space-time, and on Einsteinian relativistic presuppositions, tells me that Verlinde is correct, and that he is only one step away (it is a rather giant step, however) from a great leap forward in our understanding of space, time and matter.

I don’t need to bring out all the implications of this for the Darwinian-ID debate. This theoretical finding throws gravity, as a fundamental force of nature, into question. So, if gravity is now to be understood as a phenomena, and not a “fact”, then what about Darwinian extravagence?

Comments
PaV, I'm confused. Why would the question of whether gravity is an emergent property or not compromise the fact that gravity is uniformly observed and undisputed? I just don't see how this post legitimately criticizes evolution at all.Retroman
January 22, 2010
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REC,
I’m fairly new here, but is bornagain77 a troll? His/her arguments seem like an atheist’s parody of what is trying to be accomplished here…..
You're not new here, you're the troll.Clive Hayden
January 21, 2010
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PaV wrote: "Common descent is not at issue. What is at issue is the mechanism whereby one species gives rise to another . . ." Common descent is definitely a potential issue -- perhaps not in the point you are making specifically on this thread, but as a general matter. Specifically, the idea of "common descent" spans a wide range of meanings, from the obvious and non-controversial observation that we and the creatures around us have apparently all descended from prior similar creatures, to the much more questionable and controversial assertions: that species A eventually turned into species B; that man arose through a similar kind of lineage; that there is a universal common ancestor; etc. Oh, there are certainly a number of examples we could point to where transition from one species to another is plausible, in the sense of similar morphology or comparative genomics. However, this only means that species A turning into species B is *consistent with* evolutionary ideas of common descent. In most cases -- even the most tantalizing cases -- common descent from A to B is a possibility, a proposition, an educated guess, but nowhere near proven. Add to this fact the additional fact that there are numerous species that appear to be lacking in any kind of reasonable predecessor, and we end up with a very real question about whether all the species around us arose through common descent (in the latters senses of that term, as described above). At any rate, I fully understand your point that, for purposes of argumentation, we can assume common descent largely across the board and still have the key question unanswered: what informational input is required and by what mechanism did the changes come about. On that I agree. I simply want to point out that we should not lose sight of the numerous questions still surrounding "common descent," broadly understood.Eric Anderson
January 21, 2010
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Also, I'm fairly new here, but is bornagain77 a troll? His/her arguments seem like an atheist's parody of what is trying to be accomplished here.....REC
January 21, 2010
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PaV Fine, but yet I remain, firmly in my seat. The phenomenon of gravity remains. Also, I tend to be skeptical of new calculations. Lets see if it stands the test of time. One criticism from the new scientist article: "The jury is still out for many others. Some believe that Verlinde is using circular reasoning in his equations, by "starting out" with gravity. Others have expressed concern about the almost trivial mathematics involved, leaving most of the theory based on very general concepts of space, time and information." So I'll give it a "we'll see." But observable facts are distinct from theory.REC
January 21, 2010
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REC[3]:
Gravity is not in dispute. It is a fact. TBoth observations are sound. The laws of gravitation are mathematical descriptions of the mechanics of gravity. They are not descriptions of its origin.
I know this is hard to believe, but Verlinde, the author of the article above, derives the phenomena of gravity using the laws of entropy and other laws of physics. It falls out of the equations. He derives Newton's second law simply employing space and entropy, etc. The net effect is to render gravity an "epiphenoma" that "emerges" from underlying forces. Translation: gravity is illusory. Granted this is cutting edge physics, several prestigious physicists are impressed with Verlinde's work. It will be some time before the physics "community" will accept the "death" of gravity as we have known it, but that is the bottom-line to Verlinde's approach. I will add again that I think we are on the brink of a reinterpretation of all of Einstein's work. His work begins with a couple of simple assumptions, and those assumptions, in the end, could prove to be wrong. So, if Einstein can be wrong, will the Darwinists insist that Darwin can't be? Will gravity no longer be a fact but evolution continue to be one as far as they're concerned?PaV
January 21, 2010
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camanintx [4] You've quoted one supposed expert. There are others in that same article who completely agree with what I've stated. Here at UD, Allen MacNeil of Cornell Univ. has said that the neo-Darwinism is dead. That's the basic notion. The evo-devo people have left Darwinism behind. And, please, tell me how you feel about the argument that has been made by so many for so long; namely, evolution, like gravity, is a fact. Well, the chair has been pulled out of that one. It really is quite an embarassment for the Darwinist side--or, at least, it should be.PaV
January 21, 2010
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PaV, #2 In one of the recent issues of “The Scientist”, the notion of an “Extended Synthesis” supplanting the “Modern Synthesis” is presented. It is an admission that population genetics (= to Modern Synthesis, more or less) can’t explain so many things that nature produces. ------------------------------------ Here is a quote from the article you mention: It will be titled, Evolution: The Extended Synthesis. “The word ‘extended’ is important because it implies quite clearly that there is no rejection of the previous synthesis,” Pigliucci says. “There is no rejection of the Modern Synthesis. There is no rejection of Darwinism. It’s an extension of it—we think a significant extension in a lot of different directions which neither Darwin nor the Modern Synthesis could have possibly thought of.” This doesn't exactly support your belief that that population genetics (= to Modern Synthesis, more or less) is "a complete waste of time".camanintx
January 21, 2010
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Verlinde states:
"I am convinced now, gravity is a phenomenon emerging from the fundamental properties of space and time,",,,further cite from article: Verlinde uses the holographic principle to consider what is happening to a small mass at a certain distance from a bigger mass, say a star or a planet. Moving the small mass a little, he shows, means changing the information content, or entropy, of a hypothetical holographic surface between both masses. This change of information is linked to a change in the energy of the system. Then, using statistics to consider all possible movements of the small mass and the energy changes involved, Verlinde finds movements toward the bigger mass are thermodynamically more likely than others..
He is correct is so far as he has gone, yet it seems he has neglected to take "dark matter" into consideration in his quest to find the primary "cause" of gravity. He should be asking what is the foundational entity (source) that is causing space-time to curve where no detectable matter is present? i.e. He should be asking what is true source for gravity that can explain the curvature of space-time that we witness for the dark matter, which we can't see, as well as explaining the curvature of space-time we witness for mass which we can see? I firmly believe the answer for that particular question is "transcendent information". Let There Be Light http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/ Excerpt: The fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact "location dominion", of a photon of energy by "a qubit of infinite information", satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the missing Dark Matter. The needed transcendent explanation would have to dominate energy in a very similar "specified location" fashion, as is demonstrated by the infinite information of quantum teleportation, to satisfy what is needed to explain the missing dark matter. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Moreover, the fact that simple quantum entanglement shows "coordinated universal control" of entangled photons of energy, by transcendent information, satisfies a major requirement for the entity which must explain the missing Dark Energy. i.e. The transcendent entity, needed to explain Dark Energy, must explain why the entire space of the universe is expanding in such a finely-tuned, coordinated, degree, and would have to employ a mechanism of transcendent dominion and control very similar to what we witness first hand in the quantum entanglement experiments. Job 9:8 He stretches out the heavens by Himself and walks on the waves of the sea. Thus "infinite transcendent information" provides a coherent picture of universal control, and specificity, that could possibly unify all of physics upon further elucidation. It very well may be possible to elucidate, mathematically, the overall pattern God has chosen to implement infinite information in this universe. This following article powerfully backs up my intuition: Is Unknown Force In Universe Acting On Dark Matter? Excerpt: It is possible that a non-gravitational fifth force is ruling the dark matter with an invisible hand, leaving the same fingerprints on all galaxies, irrespective of their ages, shapes and sizes." ,,Such a force might solve an even bigger mystery, known as 'dark energy', which is ruling the accelerated expansion of the Universe." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091022154644.htm "I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure" Albert Einstein John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.bornagain77
January 21, 2010
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PaV, Your title states: Evolution is a fact just like gravity is a fact! UhOh! I thought you intended to state both were non-factual. Your response makes me think you intend the opposite. Restated, I think we agree: Gravity is not in dispute. It is a fact. TBoth observations are sound. The laws of gravitation are mathematical descriptions of the mechanics of gravity. They are not descriptions of its origin. Likewise, I'm glad you agree common descent is not at issue, and that evolution is objectively and observably a fact. What is in dispute are the mechanisms behind it. Horizontal gene transfer, design, or natural mechanisms may all account for it. However, to say that gravity or evolution are not facts is false (if you believe in common descent). String theory, gravitons, NDE, design, abiogenesis could all be wrong, but the observations can't be.REC
January 21, 2010
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REC: Common descent is not at issue. What is at issue is the mechanism whereby one species gives rise to another, and not in the varietal sense, ie, microevolution. If one studies population genetics, one finds that no mechanism exists that can explain the kinds of macroevolutionary events contained in the fossil record. I'm personally at the point where I consider population genetics to be a complete waste of time. Many evolutionary biologists would agree. In one of the recent issues of "The Scientist", the notion of an "Extended Synthesis" supplanting the "Modern Synthesis" is presented. It is an admission that population genetics (= to Modern Synthesis, more or less) can't explain so many things that nature produces. As to gravity, your comments reflect a very simple-minded approach to what is rather revolutionary. Verlinde doesn't say that gravitational effects don't exist, he is simply "grounding" its effects within entropic principles. But then gravity is no longer a force, but rather an emergent property, emerging, as it does, from the interplay between space, matter and degrees of freedom. ID doesn't say that macroevolution DIDN'T occur; rather, it questions the mechanism given as its cause. But, we're told, evolution is as a principle of diversity is as soundly grounded as is gravity when it comes to bodies being attracted to one another. No one is denying the phenomena; we, instead, are questioning the causal roots of the phenomena. If the causal roots of the gravity are now being called into question, then this argument, long used by Darwinists, now works against them, and, now becomes a means by which the vacuity of Darwinist "just-so" stories comes into clear view.PaV
January 21, 2010
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Gravitational THEORY may not be well-grounded (pun intended) but gravity seems quite intact. The lack of detection of a graviton hasn't left me hovering. My personal feeling is that evolutionary theory needs quite a bit of work, but common descent is well observed.REC
January 21, 2010
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