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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
Survive, if yes, reproduce, if yes, survive, offspring are different, survive, if yes reproduce The "whatever survives and reproduces" algorithm. The only "targets" are survival and reproduction. And that was a given. At least with "lather, rinse, repeat" there is a definite goal. That is more of an algorithm than natural selection (NS includes RM).Joe
April 12, 2015
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Joe asks In what way is that an algorithm? I say, Why would it not be an algorithm? An algorithm is simply a prescribed step by step process. nothing more nothing less step one) make two copies of a sequence each randomly varied from the original step two) erase the copy that is furthest from the chosen target step three) repeat...... This is pretty strait forward stuff. You can use this sort of procedure to quickly produce any sequence you choose. I don't know what would be controversial about it. The problem for the Darwinist is that in his process the "Target" is not something concrete but simply survival. But at the same time the algroythym RM/NS is appealed to to explain all kinds of real concrete phenomena that according to materialism didn't even exist until the sequence produced them. It's just common sense A process that does not target a particular output can not be expected to produce it. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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The claim is that an algorithm (RM/NS) can produce phenomena that appears designed.
In what way is that an algorithm?Joe
April 12, 2015
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AS says, Except in my understanding of ID, there is a claim that biological systems can be the product of “Intelligent Design” for which we have no template, as there is absolutely no entailed example. It is assumed. I say, We are hardwired to infer design under certain circumstances like the one you mention. We can't help but assume it. What we need is a way to temper this tendency when the warrant is not there with out resorting to the hyper-skepticism of the critics. That is where ID comes in. You say, would that nonetheless rule out an intelligent extraterrestrial transmitter? I say, The goal is not to rule out the stealthy designer but to rule out the algorithmic pretender as much as possible. I would want to know if a given sequence could not plausibly have an algorithmic or stochastic origin. Wouldn't you? That goes whether the sequence is biological or extraterrestrial. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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AS. Apparently you misunderstood what I wrote I guess I could have been more clear. I already assume string number 1 is designed. The question is does the algorithmically produced string mimic it sufficiently enough to fool the observer. This is relevant to ID because The claim is that an algorithm (RM/NS) can produce phenomena that appears designed. Not sure how that would help the SETI project. I suppose if I had a extraterrestrial signal that I assumed was designed I could test to see if the same signal could be produced algorithmically. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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AS says, Well, that would be trivially easy. Knowing there is information in the first string gives you the clues for deciphering the second. I say, Exactly, It's not difficult to determine if the algorithmically produced sequence mimics the designed one. That is what makes the test work. The difficult part is in producing a string algorithmically that will mimic the designed string. you say, I wonder does the following mean anything to you? I say, Of course the entire venture is predicated on the patterns existing independent of the medium they are expressed in. That is what all the fuss about Plato is about peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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AS asks, Do you think there is a general way to distinguish between information and gibberish in a sequence of anything? Numbers, letters, DNA sequences, you name it. I say, I think that if I know that a sequence has information I can determine if a second sequence has the same information. I also know that conscious agents excel in discovering patterns in sequences. I don't believe that there is a "general" in way we do it. If there was the process would be algorithmic thus falsifying the test. peace PS All, I do apologize for the diversion. I promise I'm just answering questions this rabbit trail was not my intention.fifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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Here is my latest response to Keiths at TSZ: Keiths, it appears that I am not being clear enough. I hope this comment puts us back on the right track. I apologize in advance if any of my comment appears a little feisty. Miscommunication can be frustrating, but I’m sure well be seeing eye to eye soon. Keiths: “By shaking Basketball World, you are imparting energy to it. It’s no longer an isolated system and no longer comparable to the container of gas.” First, your criticism would only apply if I was measuring temperature as a macrostate. I fully understand that you cannot base a ‘temperature macrostate,’ or a change in such, on change in basketball configuration entropy. It’s like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. I thought that was blatantly obvious. That understanding has been implicit in my whole argument when I referred to not measuring a temperature based macrostate. I thought that was clearly shown in my comment, and in fact is one of the the motivating factors behind my final syllogism. You are the one trying to squeeze my argument into a discussion about a ‘temperature macrostate.’ Second, what does an isolated system have to do with my argument? I really don’t think you are making the argument that statistical mechanics as it applies to change in entropy only deals with hypothetical ideal gases in sealed ‘closed system’ containers, are you?!?!?!? You will notice that there is really only one difference between configuration entropy of any macrostate (including basketball world) and thermodynamic entropy. That difference is indeed the macrostate you are choosing to measure. The probability that determines direction of change in entropy is exactly the same in an analysis of any config macrostate — always low to high multiplicity. If there wasn’t a general statistical rule governing the direction of change for all possible ‘config entropies,’ there would be no connection between statistical mechanics and 2LOT, since change in ‘config entropies’ only deal in terms of probability and is dimensionless until conversion. The conversion to J/K, assuming one is referencing the appropriate microstates (system of molecules as opposed to B-balls), is done after the ‘counting.’ Basically, statistical thermodynamics, as a field, would not exist if statistical mechanics did not apply to macrostates in general. Just be careful not to fall into the trap of counting the wrong microstates (B-ball configurations) when attempting to calculate for a specific macrostate (Temperature-dependent). Keiths: “If you don’t continue to shake Basketball World, then the balls will eventually come to rest. In other words, T_bw will approach “absolute zero” and S_bw will decrease. Basketball World does not obey the First and Second Laws of Basketball Dynamics.” You are correct that the B-balls will lose kinetic energy and they will come to a rest if no energy is applied. This fact is contained within my previous discussion of the requirements of an enabler. You seem to think that the loss of kinetic energy breaks my argument down somewhere. Please point out which part of my comment is incorrect because of that fact and which part of my syllogism this impacts. You are incorrect that Basketball world does not follow the second law of basketball dynamics, if by ‘basketball dynamics’ you are referring, as I am, to the probability principles guiding change in configuration macrostates that govern statistical mechanics. What ‘Basketball world’ will follow are the principles that govern statistical thermodynamics minus the final conversion to temperature. Of course this does not come as a surprise because we are looking at a macrostate other than temperature. And yes, in order to discuss change in entropy there must be kinetic energy and it is the amount of this kinetic energy that determines the speed at which the entropy will change. No more kinetic energy = no more change in entropy. I agree. Keiths: “The moral of the story: It’s possible to define entropies for all kinds of systems, but it’s a serious mistake to assume that the second law applies to all such entropies.” The real moral of the story: The 2LOT only applies to all such entropies in the manner that I have laid out in my final syllogism. That is all I have been arguing here. I’ll try my best to really break it down. My argument up to this point has nothing to do with the ‘thermo’ in 2LOT except for the relation explained in my final syllogism, and it has everything to do with the statistical principles by which 2LOT is governed. It’s all right there in my syllogism. It is the change in configuration multiplicity analyzed statistically that provides a bridge from statistical mechanics to 2LOT, through statistical thermodynamics which basically adds a conversion factor to the entropy value calculated by counting appropriate microstates. All matter/energy follows the statistical principles by which 2LOT is governed so long as there is kinetic energy available for entropy change. Actually, that can be re-stated in a better form: all matter/energy follows the statistical principles by which 2LOT is governed, and it is the available kinetic energy which will determine the time scale at which change in entropy will occur. Again, notice the reference to the statistical principles rather than a measure of a ‘thermo’ macrostate. Here are two good references on the connection between configuration entropy and 2LOT, showing how the connection is applicable and where that connection breaks down: http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ConFigEntPublicat.pdf http://entropysite.oxy.edu/JCE2009p1063.pdf Of note, from ‘Configurational Entropy Revisited,’ accessed from http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ConFigEntPublicat.pdf “However, positional entropy as presented in several widely used and influential general chemistry texts has two serious conceptual flaws in introducing beginners to entropy change. 1 When positional entropy is emphasized, it strongly implies that matter can spread out without any involvement of the energy associated with its mobile molecules. Equally misleading, the undue focus on the difference between “energy-unrelated” positional entropy change and thermal entropy change discounts the shared aspects of their fundamental relationship. One text states (and several others agree substantially), “[there are] two basic types of spontaneous physical process: 1. Matter tends to become dispersed. 2. Energy tends to become dispersed.” 1 With “1” as positional entropy and “2” as thermal entropy, there are a number of questions for students both within the thermodynamics chapters and at the chapter ends. Unfortunately, this reinforces the idea of discriminating between “types of entropy” rather than focusing on the common foundation of entropy increase, energy spreading out.” If we have arrived at a common understanding up to this point, then I will continue on with the next step of my argument.CJYman
April 12, 2015
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Hey Pitor, I don't want to hijack this thread so please let's not hash this one out exhaustively here OK You asked Is this supposed to be an exhaustive dichotomy? What about a sequence of random digits? I say, Yes it should be exhaustive if the strings are sufficiently complex. The test was originally set up to compare random with norandom data so random data also fails peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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I’m working an alternative Turing test that seeks to determine if a particular string of numbers arose from an algorithmic process or was the result of design.
Is this supposed to be an exhaustive dichotomy? What about a sequence of random digits?Piotr
April 12, 2015
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Pitor says. Do tell us something about the entailements of the hypothesis that organisms are intelligently designed, and give examples of testable predictions and novel explanations generated by the concept of Platonic oak-trees and Platonic acorns. I say. Ok just for you and very briefly I'm working an alternative Turing test that seeks to determine if a particular string of numbers arose from an algorithmic process or was the result of design. The prediction is that no one will be able to pass the test and fool the observer with a number string that resulted from a algroythym. The overall implication is that algorithmic processes (like Darwinism) are incapable of mimicking the products of a designer. As far as Platonic Form goes, The way the observer distinguishes between the two strings is that he discovers specified patterns in the designed string that are not present in the one produced algorithmically. I won't bore you with the details until I have the finial test completed. I have a crude working model that is coded into a moving line chart in Excel. I have evaluated lots of number sequences and so far my hypothesis has not been falsified. An observer can always tell a designed string from an algorithmically produced one . I am working on a more interesting user-friendly version but I'm not a programer so it takes time. But all of this is off topic in a thread about the 2nd law. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 12, 2015
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Box
Fith, good points. We don’t design sentences bottom-up from letters. We have ‘whole ideas’ that we differentiate into a story, in sentences, in words and in letters. Top-down, downward causation each time – right in front of us.
! Wonderfully said. That is how Intelligent Design worked and intelligent design works.niwrad
April 12, 2015
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fifth,
Just because I don’t need to provide a step by step process to demonstrate that my worldview can account for whole things does not mean that I am not interested in predictions or hypothesis or explanations.
Do tell us something about the entailements of the hypothesis that organisms are intelligently designed, and give examples of testable predictions and novel explanations generated by the concept of Platonic oak-trees and Platonic acorns.
Besides right now we are talking about how the 2nd law applies to evolution not about any individual theories.
Right now we are talking about oaks and acorns because some of the discussants (Joe and Andre) wanted me to answer the question "what was first" (and you joined this exchange yourself). I didn't start this subthread. As for the second law and how it applies to evolution, enough has been said. The 2LoT is basically a prohibition: it tells you what is thermodynamically impossible. Nothing in the 2LoT prohibits non-equilibrium processes and self-sustained order. The second law only places some constraints on such processes, and life doesn't come anywhere close to violationg those constraints. There is no natural limit on how much complexity can arise spontaneously in favourable conditions. The administrators of this blog start thread after thread on the same topic, apparently in the hope that they can make their FRAUD (Fishing Reel Argument @ Uncommon Descent) valid by frequent repetition. It's a dead horse by now, and I can't see much merit in flogging its carcass.Piotr
April 12, 2015
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Apparently Piotr also accepts the existence of "plants" and in his world there exists not just individual trees but also individual plants, and trees are also plants. Or some such nonsense. The fact is that in "Piotr's world" there are neither trees nor are there plants. Yet Piotr appeals to both. Hilarious, really. Or pathetic. You decide.Mung
April 11, 2015
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Piotr: In my world, there are individual trees, and there are interbreeding populations we can call species. Hilarious! Thank you.Mung
April 11, 2015
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Fith, good points. We don't design sentences bottom-up from letters. We have 'whole ideas' that we differentiate into a story, in sentences, in words and in letters. Top-down, downward causation each time - right in front of us.Box
April 11, 2015
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Piotr says, If it were otherwise, anyone with a mental connection to the Platonic world of ideal compositions could be a new Beethoven. I say, Not sure how you got that idea. Just because I know that composers are not algorithms does not mean I can compose or think that there are not techniques and skills to learn in order to compose. You say, You don’t need to explain anything, to predict anything, to formulate or test any hypotheses. I say, Just because I don't need to provide a step by step process to demonstrate that my worldview can account for whole things does not mean that I am not interested in predictions or hypothesis or explanations. Before we even get there we need to establish that our foundational premises are sound. You have failed to do so. Besides right now we are talking about how the 2nd law applies to evolution not about any individual theories. You say, Just go your way and don’t pretend Intelligent Design has anything to do with science. I say, What???? to recap I asked you for evidence that whole things exist in your worldview. You refuse to do so and demand I provide an algorithmic model for a non-algorithmic process. I point out your obvious fallacy and you to take that to be a statement of what ID is or is not. I have no idea how I'm supposed to follow that twisted train of logic. Perhaps it's better that you give this one up. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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fifth:
Asking me to explain the process step by step of how a designer creates would be like you asking me to explain in a step by step process of how a note becomes a symphony. There is no algorithmic process for design.
It would make no sense since you know as little about composition as you do about biology. Sure enough, composition is not a mechanical task. But I suppose you realise they teach compositional techniques in music schools and it takes a lot of education, formal training and advanced knowledge of music theory to be able to compose a symphony. Composers, when you ask them, can explain the technical details to you. If it were otherwise, anyone with a mental connection to the Platonic world of ideal compositions could be a new Beethoven.
A designer want’s to make a symphony and combines notes in whatever way necessary to get it done. end of explanation.
You don't need to explain anything, to predict anything, to formulate or test any hypotheses. An oak is an oak is an oak. Everything is the way it is because the designer wanted it to be that way. How did he make oaks? He -- well -- kinda composed them. How did he do it? By doing what needed to be done. And you have the gall to demand detailed explanations of other people. All right, I have wasted enough time in this thread. Just go your way and don't pretend Intelligent Design has anything to do with science.Piotr
April 11, 2015
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Piotr says, give me a painstaking step-by-step description of how the designer created acorns and/or oak-trees (which did he make first, by the way?). I say, After all this time You still don't understand. According to my worldview the whole and it's parts are equally ultimate. Neither comes first I don't need to give you a step by step process because I believe that the platonic forms of OAK and acorn exist in reality regardless of whether any of the particles that make them up exist. Asking me to explain the process step by step of how a designer creates would be like you asking me to explain in a step by step process of how a note becomes a symphony. There is no algorithmic process for design. A designer want's to make a symphony and combines notes in whatever way necessary to get it done. end of explanation You say, I’d also like to know if every oak species was created separately or whether they all have evolved from one ancestral tree. I say, I would assume that all oaks share a common ancestor However your question is irrelevant to my position. Perhaps the designer decided to mold each species separately out of nothing or perhaps he decided to convert preexisting mater into the oaks that he saw in his mind. The point is according to my worldview the oaks are not secondary entities that must be explained by algorithmic action on a primary entity. They are real things that exist in their own right. The problem of the One and the Many is your problem not mine peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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Piotr Seriously how did atoms come together to make an acorn?Andre
April 11, 2015
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Piotr, You are confused- yours is the position that claims to have a step-by-step process for producing oaks and acorns. ID claims to have a step-by-step process for determining the presence of intelligent design.Joe
April 11, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: If you claim that something exists only as a secondary derivative of something primary you are obliged to offer an account of that process. Try to respond to the point. One can recognize an object, even if one has no knowledge of atoms or origins. You're probably trying to ask: knowing that a tree exists, and knowing that it is made up of atoms, how can someone substantiate a belief in materialism? While not all materialists claim that we can reduce everything to atomic explanations, it turns out that we do know a lot about how trees produce acorns, everything from genetics and protein synthesis to xylem and phloem to photosynthesis and metabolism.Zachriel
April 11, 2015
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#623 fifth, I don't owe you any "step by step" explanation. Ask a biologist what happens when two oak gametes have sex, and ask a biochemist how processes in oak cells produce the nutrients the embryo needs. Nobody can tell you the complete story, atom by atom, because a lot happens at the same time. Anyway, ask people whose business it is to study these things. Of course an acorn does not arise from "individual atoms". The zygote has its own DNA inherited from its parents, it has a stock of building blocks and fuels (such as amino acids, fatty acids and carbohydrates), water and other necessary stuffs in the environment, solar energy for the sapling, etc. Hey, why don't you do some reading on your own?
for extra credit...
For extra credit, give me a painstaking step-by-step description of how the designer created acorns and/or oak-trees (which did he make first, by the way?). I'd also like to know if every oak species was created separately or whether they all have evolved from one ancestral tree. In either case provide detailed evidence.Piotr
April 11, 2015
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zac says, One doesn’t have to know anything about atoms to recognize an individual tree or an acorn as a physical object, nor do you have to know its origin. I say, If you claim that something exists only as a secondary derivative of something primary you are obliged to offer an account of that process. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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Piotr: In my world, there are individual trees fifthmonarchyman: Given materialism please provide a specific step by step mechanism by which a single particular acorn can arise from individual undifferentiated atoms. One doesn't have to know anything about atoms to recognize an individual tree or an acorn (or an acorn/oak) as a physical object, nor do you have to know its origin. That's true whether or not you are a materialist.Zachriel
April 11, 2015
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Piotr says, In my world, there are individual trees, and there are interbreeding populations we can call species. I say, This is your claim please provide evidence. Given materialism please provide a specific step by step mechanism by which a single particular acorn can arise from individual undifferentiated atoms. I'm not asking for vague generalities but a concrete reproducible model for extra credit please explain how an entire discrete species can arise from individual undifferentiated atoms. Thanks in advance Peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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Piotr, your position cannot account for any ranks. If you had some evidence for your position we could discuss it. However you do not and we are left to discuss why that is.Joe
April 11, 2015
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fifth:
In your world there are no acorns “really” let alone acorn /oak systems. You unintentionally summed up your conception of what whole things are back in @575 quote: We attach generic names to units characterised by a certain, rather arbitrary, degree of relationship. It’s a “rank” defined by humans, not a natural one.
The "rank" I referred to was the genus Quercus (a grouping of hundreds of rather different species), not a particular oak-tree or its complete life cycle. An oak is, physically, an "object"; its life -- from an acorn to a sapling to a 1000-year-old tree -- is a continuous process, during which we are dealing with a single organism, preserving the same genotype. So of course "an oak" is a natural biological entity, an individual. A species is also, to a large extent, a natural unit (though with fuzzy boundaries) -- a population not divided by reproductive barriers. In my world, there are individual trees, and there are interbreeding populations we can call species. More encompassing clades are also real in the phylogenetic sense -- they are descendants of a common ancestor. It's taxonomic ranks (genus, family, order, etc.) which are arbitrary and human-made. Quercus as currently defined is a clade, i.e. a natural phylogenetic unit, but it has been differently divided into genera: for example, some botanists assign the so-called ring-cupped oaks to a seperate genus Cyclobalanopsis. Are they "true oaks"? It depends whom you ask. There are also many trees called "oaks" (stone-oaks, tanbark-oaks, she-oaks) which don't belong to the Quercus clade. Names are only names. "Elk", "robin", "jay", etc. refer to different animals in Europe and in North America.Piotr
April 11, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: You do know that was quote from Piotr don’t you Sorry for the misattribution. You marked it as a quote, but your comments are so nebulous, we couldn't tell whether you agree with the statement or not. Nor did you respond as to whether you think the acorn/oak system is "ultimate". Previously you said the acorn was "ultimate" and the oak was "ultimate", now it's the acorn/oak. Nor did you respond to the statement concerning whether the acorn/oak system has to export entropy (the topic of the thread!). fifthmonarchyman: It’s not at all about “brilliance” it’s about incompatible presuppositions. You keep saying. You need to be specific in those presuppositions, and how they relate to the topic.Zachriel
April 11, 2015
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Zac says. As you yourself pointed out I say, You do know that was quote from Piotr don't you Zac says, The rest of your comment, much like your last several comments, is on the line of “You can’t understand the brilliance of my position, so there’s no point explaining it to you.” I say, It's not at all about "brilliance" it's about incompatible presuppositions. You can't see the world from the perspective that is not materialistic. If you start from that position you can't get to mine no matter how smart you are peacefifthmonarchyman
April 11, 2015
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