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Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
RDF:
PHINEHAS: Some people might know the answers to the Big Questions and others might not. RDFISH: If anyone had figured out these answers with sufficiently compelling justification, then there would be a general acceptance of the answers.
It is interesting that we keep coming back to this. Failure to justify? Or failure to persuade? I don't think your assertion above has been supported in the least. (I think the "sufficiently compelling" part could be seen as begging the question, so I'm going to ignore it.) I believe folks can choose to not be persuaded despite justification.
And that is why I say no one answer should be considered certain knowledge.
Except for the answer that says no one answer should be considered certain knowledge. It is with this exception that I take issue, since it purports to arrive at certainty through uncertainty. You've basically claimed that uncertainty about uncertainty cashes out to certainty about uncertainty, and I keep saying that, no, uncertainty about uncertainty is still just uncertainty about uncertainty. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas, This is amusing: I used the example of the lottery number - something we all believe nobody knows the answer to. You objected, saying I was assuming my conclusion [that is, nobody could know this number]. So then you used the example of PI, and I complained that nobody doubted that we knew PI. So then you picked the example of somebody knowing who was on the grassy knoll - where it is very plausible that somebody might know and not want to tell the answer! We were both stacking the deck with our examples. So let's actually talk about these Big Questions rather than other things. PHINEHAS: Some people might know the answers to the Big Questions and others might not. RDFISH: If anyone had figured out these answers with sufficiently compelling justification, then there would be a general acceptance of the answers.
RDF: And the obvious point you refuse to acknowledge is this: If we do not know whether or not we can know X, then we do not know X. PHINEHAS: Of course! Provided the set of entities described by “we” is exactly the same in both places. But you keep wanting to make the second “we” universal while the first “we” may well be limited in scope. While it may be readily apparent that anyone who doesn’t know whether or not they can know X will also not know X (else they would know that X can be known), it does not follow that the set described by either formulation must be universal. You can only imply otherwise by equivocating on “we.” To recap… Granted: Nobody who doesn’t know whether or not they can know X knows X. Unsupported: Nobody knows X.
You are claiming that a subset of humanity has very compelling justifications for believing, say, mind/body dualism, while the rest of humanity does not believe their justification is good at all. Well, yes, that is exactly the situation I'm describing: There are actually dozens of different theories about mind/body ontology, and each of them has some subset of people that think that particular theory is well justified, but then somebody else writes a paper and trashes that theory and comes up with a new one, and so on. And that is why I say no one answer should be considered certain knowledge. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
My point in picking the lottery is that nobody knows what that number might be, just as nobody knows if mental cause transcends physical cause or the answer to other metaphysical questions.
Right. You were assuming exactly what you were trying to demonstrate. I got that.
I’ve never met anyone who thinks that pi to 1000 digits is something we are not certain of. Have you? There is simply no disagreement about that at all.
Right. Of course, my point was all about pi. The following formulation isn't about pi at all. Alice: Somebody might know who was on the grassy knoll and somebody might not. Bob: Well, do you have a good justification for saying that somebody knows it? Alice: Not really, but you don’t have a good justification for saying that somebody doesn’t! Sorry for totally changing the subject on you like that.
And the obvious point you refuse to acknowledge is this: If we do not know whether or not we can know X, then we do not know X.
Of course! Provided the set of entities described by "we" is exactly the same in both places. But you keep wanting to make the second "we" universal while the first "we" may well be limited in scope. While it may be readily apparent that anyone who doesn't know whether or not they can know X will also not know X (else they would know that X can be known), it does not follow that the set described by either formulation must be universal. You can only imply otherwise by equivocating on "we." To recap... Granted: Nobody who doesn't know whether or not they can know X knows X. Unsupported: Nobody knows X. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
Of course, this has little to do with our discussion, since you are not merely making claims about what you know, but about what nobody knows.
My point in picking the lottery is that nobody knows what that number might be, just as nobody knows if mental cause transcends physical cause or the answer to other metaphysical questions.
Alice: Somebody might know pi to 1000 digits and somebody might not. Bob: Well, do you have a good justification for saying that somebody knows it? Alice: Not really, but you don’t have a good justification for saying that somebody doesn’t!
I've never met anyone who thinks that pi to 1000 digits is something we are not certain of. Have you? There is simply no disagreement about that at all. In stark contrast, there is a huge variety of opinions and speculations about what might be true when it comes to origins, mind/body ontology, and so on, and nobody has any idea how to demonstrate any of these things so that general acceptance of one answer or another is achieved.
I’ve never claimed that God (or libertarian free will, or whatever) exists just because nobody can show otherwise. I’ve only ever argued that if we don’t know the answers to the Big Questions then we also don’t know that we cannot know the answers to the Big Questions.
And the obvious point you refuse to acknowledge is this: If we do not know whether or not we can know X, then we do not know X. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Again: If I do not know whether or not I know X, then I do not know X. Alice: I might know the winning number of the New York Lottery, and I might not. Bob: Well, do you have a good justification for saying that you do know it? Alice: Not really, but you don’t have a good justification for saying that I don’t! I think we should agree that Alice has no good reason for claiming that just because Bob can’t show she does not know the answer, Alice has any reason to say she does.
Me too! Of course, this has little to do with our discussion, since you are not merely making claims about what you know, but about what nobody knows. Alice: Somebody might know pi to 1000 digits and somebody might not. Bob: Well, do you have a good justification for saying that somebody knows it? Alice: Not really, but you don’t have a good justification for saying that somebody doesn't!
Likewise with anyone’s claim that some particular God (or libertarian will or…) exists just because nobody can show it doesn’t.
Wow. This is such a misrepresentation of what I've been saying that I can't help but wonder whether you've been reading my posts at all. I've never claimed that God (or libertarian free will, or whatever) exists just because nobody can show otherwise. I've never come even close to making such an asinine argument (nor have I seen anyone else here make that argument). Why would you imply that I have? I've only ever argued that if we don't know the answers to the Big Questions then we also don't know that we cannot know the answers to the Big Questions. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
I’m afraid all this does is reveal your biases on the Big Questions. In other words, your (2) could just as easily be a matter of “We have been trying to figure out how to show that God doesn’t exist (or libertarianism isn’t true, or…) for thousands of years, and we still can’t.”
We do not normally look for reasons not to be believe in particular claims, but rather we require reasons to believe something. We have not shown that the Greek gods do not exist, nor that reincarnation is not true, nor that we will not each become gods of our own universe when we die, and so on, but that does not give us a good justification for any particular belief, right?
Your agnosticism and skepticism appear to lean consistently in one direction. If you were just as skeptical about God’s non-existence, I don’t think you would be getting hung up the way you are.
I have said that we have no good reasons to believe any particular answers to these questions, which means I have presented no bias at all. You of course are biased in favor of some particular understanding of God.
Further, it is apparent that no matter how you try to reformulate your argument, you are still hoisted on your own petard as soon as we perform the dreaded substitution. 1) We have no way of knowing X 2) People have been trying for thousands of years to figure out a way to justify a belief that [we have no way of knowing X] without success 3) Thus we still have no way of justifying a belief that [we have no way of knowing X]
No matter how you try, you cannot take my simple statement of our ignorance and turn it around on me or make it contradictory, you cannot. You keep forgetting that if one is uncertain about one's certainty, then one is simply uncertain, period.
If the above is sufficient for warranting agnosticism regarding God’s existence, it is just as sufficient for warranting agnosticism regarding your epistemological stance.
Again: If I do not know whether or not I know X, then I do not know X. Alice: I might know the winning number of the New York Lottery, and I might not. Bob: Well, do you have a good justification for saying that you do know it? Alice: Not really, but you don't have a good justification for saying that I don't! I think we should agree that Alice has no good reason for claiming that just because Bob can't show she does not know the answer, Alice has any reason to say she does. Likewise with anyone's claim that some particular God (or libertarian will or...) exists just because nobody can show it doesn't. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
P: Good work. Apparently, it has not dawned on many skeptics, that there are millions who have met and been transformed by God through personal relationship. That itself speaks volumes on the want of breadth of cross section of human experience of the world that they have embraced. KF kairosfocus
RDF:
Phin: 1) We have no way of knowing X 2) [Whether or not we have a way of knowing X] is an instance of X 3) Thus we have no way of knowing [whether or not we have a way of knowing X] 4) Thus we have no warrant to be very certain that (1) is true, QED
RDF: Wow is this ever getting old. I’ve already explained mulitple times (along with everything else) that (2) is not a matter of “Maybe we really do know how to tell if God exists, and maybe we don’t”. Rather, (2) is a matter of “We have been trying to figure out how to show that God exists (or libertarianism is true, or…) for thousands of years, and we still can’t”. 1) We have no way of knowing X 2) People have been trying for thousands of years to figure out a way to justify a belief in X without success 3) Thus we still have no way of justifying a belief in X
I'm afraid all this does is reveal your biases on the Big Questions. In other words, your (2) could just as easily be a matter of "We have been trying to figure out how to show that God doesn't exist (or libertarianism isn't true, or...) for thousands of years, and we still can't." Your agnosticism and skepticism appear to lean consistently in one direction. If you were just as skeptical about God's non-existence, I don't think you would be getting hung up the way you are. Further, it is apparent that no matter how you try to reformulate your argument, you are still hoisted on your own petard as soon as we perform the dreaded substitution. 1) We have no way of knowing X 2) People have been trying for thousands of years to figure out a way to justify a belief that [we have no way of knowing X] without success 3) Thus we still have no way of justifying a belief that [we have no way of knowing X] If the above is sufficient for warranting agnosticism regarding God's existence, it is just as sufficient for warranting agnosticism regarding your epistemological stance.
Phin: Over those same thousands of years, millions upon millions would say they’ve figured out how to know that God exists...
RDF: I don’t actually think this is an accurate depiction of what has transpired. The sophistication of theological arguments has increased somewhat over the millenia (now we have a modal version of the ontological argument for example), but they really haven’t changed all that much at all.
I get the feeling you think your second sentence here justifies your first, but I can't see how it does in any more than a tangential way. Phinehas
Headlined, here. (That may save load time too) kairosfocus
F/N: let us remind ourselves of the context for the just above exchanges, by going back to Vivid at 619:
[RDF/AIG:] And once again I must remind you that you are mistaken. We cannot be absolutely certain of anything, and you will see that I have never said that we could be absolutely certain of anything. I don’t think this is a very difficult point, but you keep misquoting me. [Vivid, replying:} I apologize I did not intend to misquote you I now understand your position better. You are not absolutely certain that there is no such thing as absolute certainty but you want Stephen[B] to concede to that which you are not absolutely certain about. Got it.
Notice, this is what RDF has to defend, cited from his own mouth:
[RDF:] We cannot be absolutely certain of anything . . .
This absolute declaration of certainty that we cannot be certain of anything, aptly exposes the underlying incoherence of what RDF has been arguing. He has spent much time trying to ignore a sound worldviews foundait5on approach, and has sought to undermine first principles of right reason in order to advance an agenda that from its roots on up, is incoherent. So, let it be understood that when reason was in the balance, he was found wanting, decisively wanting. Again and again. In particular, observe his willful unresponsiveness to and "passive" resistance by that unresponsiveness, to the basic point that by direct case, Royce's Error exists, we can show that there are truths that are generally recongised, are accessible to our experiences, are factually grounded, and can be shown to be undeniably true and self evident, constituting certain knowledge of the world of things in themselves accessible to humans. Thus, his whole project of want of grounding for reasoning and building worldviews collapses from the foundations. In particular, observe as well that he has for hundreds of comments, waged an ideological talking point war against cause and effect, trying to poison the atmosphere to disguise the want of a good basis for rejecting it. For instance, observe how he has never seriously engaged the point that once a thing A exists, following Schopenhauer, we may freely ask, why and expect to find a reasonable, intelligible answer. (This is in part a major basis for science, and also for philosophy.) This principle, sufficient reason, is patently reasonable and self-evident: that if A is, there is a good explanatory reason for it. First, that A's attributes, unlike those of a square circle, are coherent. So, from this point on, the law of non-contradiction is inextricably entangled int he possibility of being. Consequently we see the antithesis: possibility vs impossibility of being. Next, by virtue of possible worlds analysis, we can distinguish another antithesis: contingent vs non-contingent (i.e. NECESSARY) beings. That is, we can have possible worlds in which certain things -- contingent beings, C -- could exist and others in which C does not exist. For instance, a horned horse is obviously a possible being but happens not to exist as of yet in the actual world we inhabit. But it is conceivable that within a century, through genetic engineering, one may well exist. (I am not so sure that they will be able to make a pink one, but a white one is very conceivable.) We are of course just such members of class C. (And this wider class C further opens the way to significant choice by humans, by which we can imagine possible futures, and by rational evaluation of the consequences of our ideas, models and plans, decide which to implement, e.g. by choosing a design of the building to replace the WTC buildings in NYC knocked down by Bin Laden and co on Sept 11, 2001 -- a date chosen by him on the probable grounds that it was the 318th anniversary less one day, from the great cavalry attack led by Jan III Sobieski of Poland and Lithuania, which broke the final Turkish siege of Vienna under the Caliph at that time in 1683. That is, by choosing the day, UBL was making a message to his fellow radicalised Muslims that he was taking over from the previous high-water mark of IslamIST expansionism. And that he was doing so in the general area of Khorasan would also be of significance to such Muslims, who would immediately recognise the significance and relevance of black flag armies from that general area. I give these examples, to underscore the significance of contingency and intelligent, willed choice in humans, something that RDF/AIG also wishes to undermine. he does not see the fatal self-referential incoherence that stems from that, and doubtless would dismiss the significance of incoherence as well. The circle of ideological irrationality driven by a priori evolutionary materialism and its fellow traveller ideas and agendas, closes.) But C has its antithesis in a world partition, class NOT-C; let us call it N. Necessary beings, such as the number two, 2 or the true proposition 2 + 3 = 5, etc. Members of C are marked by dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors, e.g. as we have frequently discussed, how a match flame depends on each of: heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction. Such enabling factors are necessary causal factors, all of which must be present for a member of class C to be actualised. A sufficient condition for such a member will have at least all of the factors like this, met. We naturally and reasonably say that such a member of C is CAUSED when its conditions to exist are met by a sufficient cluster of factors, and that E is an effect; the cluster of factors being causes. So, even if we do not know the full set of causal factors for C, we can be confident that a contingent being, that has a beginning and may end or could conceivably not have been at all, is caused. However, not all things are like that. Some things have no such de[endence on causal factors, and are possible beings. These beings will be actual in all possible worlds, i.e. they are necessary beings. A serious candidate necessary being will be either impossible (blocked by having incoherent proposed attributes such as a square circle), or it will be possible and actual. As noted, S5, in modal logic, captures part of why. In effect we can see that such a being just is, inevitably, and its absence would be impossible. For example the number 2 just is. Even in an empty world, one can see that we have the empty set {} --> 0. Thence, we may form a set which collects the empty set: {0} --> 1. Then, in the next step, we simply collect both: {0,1} --> 2. For modern set theory, we simply continue the process to get 3, 4, 5 . . . , but this is enough for our purposes. Doing this abstract analytical exercise does not create 2, it simply recognises how inevitable it is. It is impossible for 2 not to exist. Similarly, the true proposition 2 + 3 = 5 is like that, and much more besides. We thus see that necessary beings exist and are knowable, even familiar in some cases. We see further that such beings are without beginning, or end. They are not caused, they hold being by necessity, which its their sufficient reason for existing. They have no dependence on external enabling causal factors. A serious candidate to be a necessary being will be i9ndependent of enabling factors, likewise (flying spaghetti monsters need not apply) and will not be composed of material parts. The abstract, thought-nature of cases like 2, 2 + 3 = 5 etc shows that such beings point to mind, and one way of accounting for such beings is that they are eternally contemplated by God. Where also God is regarded as an eternal, necessary, spiritual being who is minded and the root of all being in our world, the ultimate enabling factor for reality. BTW, this means that those who would dismiss God's existence do not merely need to establish that in their view God is improbable, but that God is impossible, as God is a serious candidate to be a necessary being. That is, since RDF is so hot to undermine the intellectual credibility of the existence of God, it is worth pausing to highlight a few points on this matter, connected to the logic of necessary beings and other relevant points. For, even before we run into other things that point like compass needles to God: the evident design of a fine tuned cosmos set up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that makes an extra cosmic, intelligent agent with power to create a cosmos the explanation to beat, the significance of our being minded and characterised by reason, as well as the existence of a world of life in that context, the fact that we inescapably find ourselves under moral gogvernment by implanted law, and of course the direct encounter with God that millions report as having positively transformed their lives, and more. Nope, unlike the pretence of too many skeptics would lead us to naively believe, the acceptance of God's reality is a very reasonable position to hold. (Scroll back up and observe the studious silence of RDF et al on such matters.) So, never mind the ink-clouds of distractive or dismissive or confusing talking-points, we are back to the worldview level significance of first principles of right reason and pivotal first, self-evident truths. Prediction (do, prove me wrong RDF et al): this too will be studiously ignored in haste to push along with the talking point agenda. The price tag for such apparently habitual tactics, is willful neglect of duties of care to be reasonable, to seek and face truth, and to be fair in discussion. That is, it is "without excuse." (And yes, the allusion to Rom 1:19 - 25 and vv. 28 - 32 is quite deliberate.) KF kairosfocus
P: Looks like our minds were running on the very same lines. KF kairosfocus
RDF:
(2) is a matter of “We have been trying to figure out how to show that God exists (or libertarianism is true, or…) for thousands of years, and we still can’t”.
As was just pointed out, the best way to know God is real is to meet him in life transforming power. In my case, apart from that, I would have died as a sickly child decades ago. And I am hardly unique, there are millions across the years and in the world today. If you need warrant to moral certainty, Jesus of Nazareth is the best answer. And dismissive talking points about "apologetics" are no answer to the double challenge just given. Which, BTW is one reason why the sort of skepticism that is so rampant today will fail. Too many people know better, historically and directly. All you manage to do is sound blindly, hyperskeptically dismissive and too given to the tricks of debating. As to your second problem, you yourself provided your answer, if you would but look carefully enough, without ideological blinkers. Just the little snippet cited is 159 ASCII characters in English, at 128 possibilities per character. The resources of our solar system for its lifespan, could only -- on very generous terms -- be plausible up to maybe 70 or 72. Absent a reasoning, choosing mind, there is no good explanation for such FSCO/I. There is such a thing as a point where one candidate explanation so far excels others that they fall to the ground, leaving a moral certainty. KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
I’m not sure how we went from “know” to “show,” so I’ll address the “know” version.
I didn't mean any difference between show (that is, provide justification for) and know (that is, believe with justification).
Over those same thousands of years, millions upon millions would say they’ve figured out how to know that God exists...
I don't actually think this is an accurate depiction of what has transpired. The sophistication of theological arguments has increased somewhat over the millenia (now we have a modal version of the ontological argument for example), but they really haven't changed all that much at all. Compared to our understanding of other aspects of the world, philosophical and theological arguments intended to justify particular answers to the Big Questions are basically static. So it's not really true that over millenia new and improved justifications have been "figured out" and that accounts for millions of believers. People were at least as convinced of the existence of god or gods in ancient times before anyone was doing apologetics.
... and are living evidence against your assertion that “we” can’t.
You are at least living evidence that people are wont to believe in one set of answers or another, regardless of the strength of the justifications. If there was one set of well-justified answers to religious questions, then there would be far less disagreement about what is true. Not everyone believes in any gods; of those that do people have different ideas about these gods' nature and number and history; people disagree about the afterlife and reincarnation and intercessionary prayer and creation stories and moral commands and... every aspect of belief one can imagine. Likewise with other Big Questions: Five philosophers might have six different opnions regarding Free Will or moral theory or epistemology... after people have argued these matters for millenia. Think of a spectrum from "Very Certain" to "No Way of Knowing". A vast set of common sense and scientific propositions lie on the more certain part of the spectrum; candidate answers to the Big Questions are all in the "No Way of Knowing" area. Please don't forget that I don't believe there is any reason not to hold strong beliefs about the Big Questions, and there are likely benefits to doing so. I just think it's important to keep in mind that these beliefs are not justified in the way the rest of our knowledge is. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF:
“We have been trying to figure out how to [know?] that God exists (or libertarianism is true, or…) for thousands of years, and we still can’t”.
I'm not sure how we went from "know" to "show," so I'll address the "know" version. Over those same thousands of years, millions upon millions would say they've figured out how to know that God exists and are living evidence against your assertion that "we" can't. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
1) We have no way of knowing X 2) [Whether or not we have a way of knowing X] is an instance of X 3) Thus we have no way of knowing [whether or not we have a way of knowing X] 4) Thus we have no warrant to be very certain that (1) is true, QED
Wow is this ever getting old. I've already explained mulitple times (along with everything else) that (2) is not a matter of "Maybe we really do know how to tell if God exists, and maybe we don't". Rather, (2) is a matter of "We have been trying to figure out how to show that God exists (or libertarianism is true, or...) for thousands of years, and we still can't".
1) We have no way of knowing X 2) People have been trying for thousands of years to figure out a way to justify a belief in X without success 3) Thus we still have no way of justifying a belief in X
I'm a patient guy, but I'll ask to try just a little bit to understand what I've been saying here. Once again:
RDF: I’ve explained reasons I am certain that (1) is true many times now, comparing these Big Questions to other questions where we have successfully justified our knowledge. If you want to argue that (1) is false, you will need to actually address what I’ve written.
Thank you for the apology. I choose to believe it is a better representation of who you are
Thank you. Clearly you were compelled to do so; after everything you've read and thought about, how could you have done otherwise? :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFishguy:
So If I were an Intelligent Design enthusiast, I would point to me and say, “Here’s somebody who thinks Intelligent Design Theory is a scientifically vacuous mess and religious apologetics fail completely, but even he doesn’t believe that Richard Dawkins is right!
That's strange because ID doesn't have anything to do with religion and even Richard Dawkins understands that it makes a huge difference whether or not living organisms are designed. I am an Intelligent Design enthusiast but I just point at you and shake my head. I think you and Gregory are best left alone. Joe
P: you should draw out the reductio in 732 a little more explicitly. The confident declaration in claim 1 leads to the opposite in point 4. So, this is a case similar to the "ugly gulch" between the phenomenal world and that of things in themselves, often dressed up with discussions on how error prone our senses and reasoning are. But, as F H Bradley long since pointed out, he that claims to know that the world of things in themselves are unknowable in that sense, has made a claim to know a pivotal claim about things in themselves. Locke's point (cited above and studiously ignored as usual) that we have candlelight enough to do what we ought and should not use want of daylight as an excuse not to do what we can and should, is apt. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Let's do a little test case, on Royce's proposition, Error exists. 1: Now, clearly, that truth that is certainly known exists would be a case of addressing "big questions." So, let us take up RDF above:
Let “X” be “Big Questions” . . . . If I do not know if I know the answer to a question, it simply means that I do not know the answer to the question. To “know” means to hold a justified true belief. If I could justify my belief in something, then I would know it, and I would also know that I know it. If I can’t justify my belief, then I do not know that belief. And if I do not know if I can justify my belief, then likewise I do not know that belief. Here is the correct argument: 1) We do not know X 2) Whether we can know X is part of X 3) Thus we cannot know if we know X 4) Thus we do not know X, QED
2: BTW, justification as presented above is internalist, this lands one in Gettier counter examples and is a strawman. Better to refer to warrant, which is objective, and does not fall into the trap. 3: Now, Error exists is self-referential, as is its denial. Let's use E and ~ E. 4: Form a conjunction, C = {E AND ~E}, which joins opposed, exhaustve claims and MUST BE FALSE. 5: So, we know C to be false, an error. 6: By instantiation, we know now that E is not only true but is undeniably true as its denial leads directly to demonstrating a case of E. 7: So, we have a case of warranted, true belief, strong form, undeniably certain knowledge, knowledge of truth. This entails further that systems of thought that deny or doubt such, are overturned by counter-example. 8: We have a "big question" and we can know its answer to be so to undeniable, self-evident certainty. (As has been on the table all along.) KF PS: RDF has an evident obsession to undermine possibility of confident knowledge of God. Indeed, from remarks above, this is a major motive for what he has been doing. This intention of his will be a bit surprising to the millions who have come to know God across the ages and today, by personal, life-transforming experience, similar to how they are confident for good reason that they know that other people are minded, not zombies merely driven by blind genetics and brain chemistry with a dash of psycho-social conditioning and maybe some chance events in CNS neurons. For those seeking a grounding for the gospel-based Christian Faith in that context, I suggest a look here on as a start, noting the significance of the 55 AD summary testimony in 1 Cor 15:1 - 11 and the fulfillment of Isa 53 in it. I suggest on fair comment, that such an historic anchorage is something that can be grounded to moral certainty, as many have done, and that in too many cases the rejection of this evidence has come at the cost of falling to selective hyperskepticism. In the case of RDF, the predictable response is that he will continue to try to ignore inconvenient evidence and will drum on with long since corrected talking points as though they have not passed discard by date. But then, if one is resistant to direct proofs, that should be -- sadly -- no surprise. kairosfocus
Onlookers, And of course to trot out his talking points line, RDF/AIG is busily studiously ignoring a relevant case of certain knowledge on just such big questions that has been on the table from the beginning. That underscores the manipulative agenda he is playing out. Similarly, we should note, per reductio, that evolutionary materialism -- by whatever name -- is a commonly imposed a priori (per Lewontin) that decisively undermines responsible freedom and rationality, thus self-refutes. So, it should be no great surprise to see other absurdities popping up in the field from the same spreading roots. Bottomline, we are limited and error-prone in our investigations, but to leap from that to the notion that on pivotal matters we cannot have any solid answers, such as self-evident truths and first principles of right reason is the one step too far from truth into absurdity that does not follow from truth. P is right to underscore the point, and the studious ignoring of relevant supportive evidence simply underscores that we are dealing with ideology and debate games. Which -- sad to have to note but we need it -- are all that are left when one undermines responsible reason. KF kairosfocus
RDF: You've characterized my argument this way:
1) We do not know X 2) Whether we can know X is part of X 3) Thus we cannot know if we know X 4) Thus (1) must be false
I've never claimed that (1) must be logically false. However, neither do I believe the following is the correct argument.
1) We do not know X 2) Whether we can know X is part of X 3) Thus we cannot know if we know X 4) Thus we do not know X, QED
Rather, this is what I am arguing: 1) We have no way of knowing X 2) [Whether or not we have a way of knowing X] is an instance of X 3) Thus we have no way of knowing [whether or not we have a way of knowing X] 4) Thus we have no warrant to be very certain that (1) is true, QED Thank you for the apology. I choose to believe it is a better representation of who you are. :) Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
If we read into your response the implicit admission to being human, how can the following two statements be true at the same time without violating the self-evident LNC? 1. Humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions. 2. RDF is very certain about a Big Question.
I'm finding it hard to believe you don't understand this, but can't think of why you'd pursue it if you did. 1. There is a set of existential questions that people have been pondering for millenia without managing to find certain answers. 2. Among these questions are those of origins, free will, mind/body ontology, and foundations of epistemology. 3. This last category, epistemology, is what I was referring to when I said that thinking about the ways people might answer these questions is itself a big question. 4. I am certain that the foundational questions of epistemology have not been answered and well-justified, just as I am certain that these other Big Questions have not been answered and well-justified. What you are trying to do is ignore these points by playing a little word game: Let "X" be "Big Questions": 1) We do not know X 2) Whether we can know X is part of X 3) Thus we cannot know if we know X 4) Thus (1) must be false I've explained the problem with your trick already, and so has Faded Glory, but you seem very entralled with it, so I will explain it one last time. If I do not know if I know the answer to a question, it simply means that I do not know the answer to the question. To "know" means to hold a justified true belief. If I could justify my belief in something, then I would know it, and I would also know that I know it. If I can't justify my belief, then I do not know that belief. And if I do not know if I can justify my belief, then likewise I do not know that belief. Here is the correct argument: 1) We do not know X 2) Whether we can know X is part of X 3) Thus we cannot know if we know X 4) Thus we do not know X, QED I've explained reasons I am certain that (1) is true many times now, comparing these Big Questions to other questions where we have successfully justified our knowledge. If you want to argue that (1) is false, you will need to actually address what I've written.
RDF: I suppose you’re still upset that theology does not actually rest on bedrock? PHIN: I think this sort of comment is beneath you.
My sincere apologies for saying you are upset - that was inappropriate, you're right. By way of explanation, your insistence on trying to use a goofy little trick to prove me wrong rather than engage the topic substantively has been annoying. Yes we all understand Godel sentences and paradoxes of self-reference, but it is patently obvious what I am saying here and I would say that playing this game to "prove me wrong" this way is beneath you. Again, this really is the simplest and most obviously true point I've made here: Nobody can say with any certainty if libertarianism, theism, dualism, or other positions regarding the Big Questions are true. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF:
Having already agreed that the following is a Big Question: Can a human be very certain that humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions?
Yes of course – I myself represent an existence proof that this is possible.
If we read into your response the implicit admission to being human, how can the following two statements be true at the same time without violating the self-evident LNC? 1. Humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions. 2. RDF is very certain about a Big Question.
I suppose you’re still upset that theology does not actually rest on bedrock?
I think this sort of comment is beneath you. I'm not particularly upset about anything at all in this conversation, let alone about things that you've yet to demonstrate. I am merely continuing to point out that your assertion that theology does not actually rest on bedrock does not actually rest on bedrock. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas, Sorry, missed your post:
Can a human be very certain that humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions?
Yes of course - I myself represent an existence proof that this is possible. I am baffled by your monotonic fascination with this question. Here is how it started (in @679):
PHIN: And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question. RDF: Actually no, I think this is one of the things that great thinkers have indeed thought and written about extensively through the ages.
...and in all that time, nobody has come up with any way to justify any particular set of beliefs on these issues. Apparently you are afraid to answer my questions (you can start with those in @679)? Too bad! I suppose you're still upset that theology does not actually rest on bedrock? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
To My Hosts at UD, I don't think I've broken any stated policy by registering under one fake name rather than another, but apologies if so. Last time I was banned here was because I repeated - just repeated! - some contradiction in one of Barry A's posts with a smiley face :-) Anyway, I would think you would like having somebody like me here. Although my friends don't mention it and my opponents don't believe me, I have always believed that evolutionary theory is fundamentally incomplete; in other words, yes, I am skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.. And what is missing, in my estimation, is much more fundamental than drift or neutral selection or whatnot. I'm much more aligned with James Shapiro or Stuart Kauffman or Thomas Nagel than I am with Dawkins or Dennett or the Darwin Defenders on the net. So If I were an Intelligent Design enthusiast, I would point to me and say, "Here's somebody who thinks Intelligent Design Theory is a scientifically vacuous mess and religious apologetics fail completely, but even he doesn't believe that Richard Dawkins is right! Cheers, aiguy RDFish
Hi Sal,
AiGuy? Nice to see we could be on the same side of an issue for a change. Nice to see you.
Thanks, Sal - nice to see you too. I really did find your comments here very well stated, and I truly commend you for following the evidence where it leads rather than starting with your conclusions. Cheers, aiguy RDFish
Hi Alan!
Well, I should have guessed. It’ll be interesting to see whether you begin to have problems commenting now, Mr Fish. I’m blaming you for the demise of ARN forum and Telic Thoughts, BTW.
It is very nice to see you here too! Yes, I take full responsibility for the demise of those venerable fora. I wish smart sociologist would write an analysis of the rise and fall of these things. Anyway, if the powers that be here again decide my ideas are too subversive and anxiety-producing to allow, at least I had the pleasure of debating again for a couple of weeks :-) Cheers, aiguy RDFish
5for:
Ok, so all you are saying is that some things (like square circles) logically can’t exist.
Well, I wasn't really trying to make a point at all, but merely suggesting what KF might be saying. I didn't read anything particularly earth-shattering into his use of the phrase, "potential existence," so I can't really be blamed for how mundane my interpretation is, can I? :) Phinehas
RDF:
Really? I think I’ve been crystal clear. Which part did you have trouble with?
The part that I asked you to clarify by answering the following Big Question: Can a human be very certain that humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions? I say, no. What say you? Phinehas
RDFish, AiGuy? Nice to see we could be on the same side of an issue for a change. Nice to see you. Sal scordova
F/n: This wiki clip from its possible worlds article may be a helpful 101: _______ >> theorists who use the concept of possible worlds consider the actual world to be one of the many possible worlds. For each distinct way the world could have been, there is said to be a distinct possible world; the actual world is the one we in fact live in. Among such theorists there is disagreement about the nature of possible worlds; their precise ontological status is disputed, and especially the difference, if any, in ontological status between the actual world and all the other possible worlds. One position on these matters is set forth in David Lewis's modal realism (see below). There is a close relation between propositions and possible worlds. We note that every proposition is either true or false at any given possible world; then the modal status of a proposition is understood in terms of the worlds in which it is true and worlds in which it is false. The following are among the assertions we may now usefully make: True propositions are those that are true in the actual world (for example: "Richard Nixon became President in 1969"). False propositions are those that are false in the actual world (for example: "Ronald Reagan became President in 1969"). (Reagan did not run for President in 1969, and thus couldn't possibly have been elected.) Possible propositions are those that are true in at least one possible world (for example: "Hubert Humphrey became President in 1969"). (Humphrey did run for President in 1969, and thus could have been elected.) Note: This includes propositions which are necessarily true, in the sense below. Impossible propositions (or necessarily false propositions) are those that are true in no possible world (for example: "Melissa and Toby are taller than each other at the same time"). Necessarily true propositions (often simply called necessary propositions) are those that are true in all possible worlds (for example: "2 + 2 = 4"; "all bachelors are unmarried").[1] Contingent propositions are those that are true in some possible worlds and false in others (for example: "Richard Nixon became President in 1969" is contingently true and "Hubert Humphrey became President in 1969" is contingently false) . . . . when we discuss what would have happened if some set of conditions were the case, the truth of our claims is determined by what is true at the nearest possible world (or the set of nearest possible worlds) where the conditions obtain. (A possible world W1 is said to be near to another possible world W2 in respect of R to the degree that the same things happen in W1 and W2 in respect of R; the more different something happens in two possible worlds in a certain respect, the "further" they are from one another in that respect.) Consider this conditional sentence: "If George W. Bush hadn't become president of the U.S. in 2001, Al Gore would have." The sentence would be taken to express a claim that could be reformulated as follows: "In all nearest worlds to our actual world (nearest in relevant respects) where George W. Bush didn't become president of the U.S. in 2001, Al Gore became president of the U.S. then instead." And on this interpretation of the sentence, if there is some nearest world to the actual world (nearest in relevant respects) where George W. Bush didn't become president but Al Gore didn't either, then the claim expressed by this counterfactual would be false. Today, possible worlds play a central role in many debates in philosophy, including especially debates over the Zombie Argument, and physicalism and supervenience in the philosophy of mind. Many debates in the philosophy of religion have been reawakened by the use of possible worlds >> _________ Notice how central these issues and approaches are. KF kairosfocus
5for: The reason that impossible candidates like square circles do not and cannot exist is fundamental. Namely, they are such that proposed attributes stand in mutual contradiction. This deeply, inextricably embeds the identity cluster, LOI, LNC and LEM -- remember your little challenge to address such -- in the heart of being and causality. KF kairosfocus
Onlookers, for record: As AF full well knows, so long as RDF/AIG behaves in a civil, fairly responsible way, he has little to fear from UD's moderation policy. However, the atmosphere poisoning remark above tees up unjustified accusations of censorship if RDF/AIG crosses that line and refuses to heed warning. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Here, from 675 above, is a bit of the agenda of RDF/AIG redux:
I just argue that religious beliefs aren’t knowledge. This doesn’t mean they are false or wrong; it just means we can’t ever reach any sort of consensus on them because there is no way of telling who might be right.
1 --> The fundamental question at stake is not religious, but logical and as logic ties into warrant in the grounding of knowledge, epistemological. 2 --> Consensus, BTW, is NOT a criterion of knowledge but reflects the underlying worldview agendas: relativism that reduces knowledge to the dominant opinion of a time at relevant level, whether among the "experts," or at popular level. 3 --> This immediately surfaces one of the pivotal problems of such relativism: knowledge becomes a political power game, might and manipulation make 'knowledge.' An obvious blunder, one that makes any unpopular circle immediately by definition "anti-knowledge." (Notice the common talking point, "anti-science" reflects this.) The immediate effect is that star-power rules the roost, and the marginalised are dismissed and often denigrated -- all too familiar. And all too utterly, patently fallacious.not everything 4 --> In contrast, and as can easily be examined, a much better understanding is: KNOWLEDGE IS WARRANTED, CREDIBLY TRUE BELIEF. Where the question of warrant attaches to there being good reason to view the relevant beliefs as worthy of trusting as reliable, even if that conclusion may be inherently provisional, and even where degree of support will vary by subject. 5 --> That is, following Greenleaf as already cited (and ignored) who in turn echoes others all the way back to C4 -5 BC, degree of warrant is as appropriate to subject, but should in any case be good enough to confidently base serious decisions on. He who discards such is as Locke's unprofitable servant who complains of want of sunlight when it suits him and refuses to go about his business by adequate candle light. 6 --> In short, I here highlight the fallacy of demanding a double standard in warrant, one for the "popular" school of thought and -- on asserting or implying "extraordinary claim" -- demanding an inappropriately demanding one for that which one is inclined to reject. This is already a case of the fallaciously closed mind, through selective hyperskepticism. 7 --> But, our case here is worse than that. For, the first principles of right reason and the Royce proposition Error exists are DEMONSTRABLY self-evident. That does not suit a star-power system, however as inconvenient and unpopular claims may be seen to have merits. Such must be taken captive and made into hand maidens. 8 --> Which is why -- as is evident above -- there is a tactic of trying to shift their base to being accepted as convention, and it is why there is so much fuss and bother to insert the notion that cause in particular and similarly non-contradiction are suspect notions. No no no, objective or absolute truths ase sooooo INTOLERANT. 9 --> Not at all: that error exists is indeed a notorious consensus, but it is more than that: it is undeniably true as has been demonstrated -- as is studiously ignored. 10 --> Similarly, once there is an identifiable recognisable distinct A in the wider world (e,g. that red cricket ball in the shop case in Davy Hill a few miles from where I write) then we have a world partition: W = { A | NOT-A } with the identity cluster following immediately, LOI, LNC, LEM. Wiki's summary in its article on laws of thought is apt at 101 level:
The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature . . . whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle). What’s more . . . thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought) . . .
11 --> To extend to causality and its cousins, we add the principle of sufficient reason: following Schopemhauer, that if A exists, we may ask why, seeking and expecting a reasonable answer. With the help of a lighted match, the numbers 2, 3 and 5 and the proposition 2 + 3 = 5, as well as the impossibility, a square circle, we see that this leads to:
a: possibility/impossibility of being as alternatives . . . possible beings at least potentially existing, b: the presence of on/off enabling factors for contingent beings -- those that are possible but not necessarily present in all possible worlds, c: the point that a being is possible only if its attributes are coherent (i.e. LNC etc are inextricably entangled with possibility of being), d: hence, attempts to sever LNC etc from cause are wrong-headed and futile, e: that a sufficient cluster of causal factors involving at least all necessary, ON/OFF enabling ones is needed for a contingent being to begin, f: that beings that have no dependence on such enabling factors will be either impossible or actual (like the number 2 etc). Where, this means that: g: Necessary beings exist, are uncaused and have neither beginning nor end. h: Where also, serious candidates to be necessary beings -- flying spaghetti mosters and pink unicorns need not apply -- are going to be either impossible due to incoherence of attributes directly connected to identity, or will be actual. (This last is a well-known consequence in S5.)
12 --> Taken together, these tools provide powerful instruments for evaluating many truth-claims, and are already sweeping away a hay-stack full of many popolar post-/ultra- modern notions regarding worldview issues. 13 --> What about the favourite whipping-boy of today's hyperskeptical age, "religion"? 14 --> This is of course, suspiciously vague and ill-defined. RDF only wants to brush aside whatever can be so tagged and dismiss, as there are allegedly no tools to test and no way to achieve consensus. 15 -->RDF needs to address the tools just identified and other linked ones such as inductive reasoning and inference to the best current explanation, avoidance of bias and fallacies, etc. Not to mention, worldviews analysis on comparative difficulties leading to reasonable faith grounded worldviews. (Cf. toolkit here on.) 16 --> And, on the Faith Tradition he most likely has as target for his animus, I would suggest that the worldview discussion here on, and the historical anchoring here on will prove more robust than he is willing to acknowledge. KF kairosfocus
*chuckles* Well, I should have guessed. It'll be interesting to see whether you begin to have problems commenting now, Mr Fish. I'm blaming you for the demise of ARN forum and Telic Thoughts, BTW. ;) Alan Fox
And -- in the face of identified, civilisation foundation-rot -- the dance goes on . . . kairosfocus
Hi FG,
Nice to see you again! I had a feeling you are the same person as aiguy, hence my little word play of saying you’re an intelligent guy – I didn’t want to ‘out’ you but I thought you would get the reference.
And nice to see you too! Thanks for your consideration, but I'm not overly worried that someone will see through my pseudonym to find... my other pseudonym :-)
Yes many of us go back to the ARN days, and we are still discussing the same things years later without much in the way of progress. Which is one of the points you’re making – we just don’t have a way to decisively settle these issues.
So very true. I saw a funny satirical headline once - I think it was on the Onion: "Somebody Actually Changed Their Position After an Internet Debate!".
I am still following the debates from time to time, not in the hope of ever seeing consensus, but because I enjoy reading well crafted arguments, rebuttals, and other people’s thoughts on these Big Questions regardless of my own personal take. I’ll go back to lurking now.
Yeah me too. A lot of times people don't believe me, but I really am very open-minded about what might be true, and don't have an emotional investment in particular answers to these Big Questions. It makes people really mad a lot of times. Cheers, RDFish'll Intelligence Guy :-) RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
I’m seeing a lot of words, but not a lot of sense.
Really? I think I've been crystal clear. Which part did you have trouble with? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi RDFish, Nice to see you again! I had a feeling you are the same person as aiguy, hence my little word play of saying you're an intelligent guy - I didn't want to 'out' you but I thought you would get the reference. Yes many of us go back to the ARN days, and we are still discussing the same things years later without much in the way of progress. Which is one of the points you're making - we just don't have a way to decisively settle these issues. I am still following the debates from time to time, not in the hope of ever seeing consensus, but because I enjoy reading well crafted arguments, rebuttals, and other people's thoughts on these Big Questions regardless of my own personal take. I'll go back to lurking now. Cheers, fG faded_Glory
Ok, so all you are saying is that some things (like square circles) logically can't exist. 5for
Thanks Phinehas. So, for example, have you always had the potential to exist (in your way of thinking about it)?
I've been accused of being a square, but never a square circle, so I am not aware of anything that would necessarily rule out my existence. Also, I find that my existence tends to lend support to the possibility of my being. Phinehas
5For: At this stage I am tired of silly rhetorical gambits games and barbs. You know full well that I have presented a demonstration of a pivotal point that is indeed corrective of widespread errors. I therefore challenge you to successfully dispute the significance of Royce's proposition: Error exists. (Cf. here, onlookers.) Show it false and/or not undeniably true -- thus self evident, or stand branded as trying to poison the well. Then, examine the world partition W = {A |NOT-A} on existence of a distinct A, and undermine LOI, LNC and LEM as not immediately true corollaries. Then, undermine PSR -- if A exists it can be asked and sought as to why -- and its implications possibility/ impossibility of being and contingency/ necessity of being, thence cause as explanation of contingent being. (These are the things you would brush aside without serious engagement.) KF kairosfocus
P: Precisely correct. Possibility of being is Just that; the objectors need to reflect on possible worlds. Attempts to play word games to obfuscate don't change that. Let's give an example: unicorns in the sense of horned horses are obviously possible, and -- just on novelty value -- it is probable such will be actualised within the Century. KF kairosfocus
Thanks Phinehas. So, for example, have you always had the potential to exist (in your way of thinking about it)? 5for
5for: I'm not familiar with KF's thinking on the matter, but from my perspective, non-existence doesn't become potential existence. If something has the potential to exist, then it has always had the potential to exist. As to how potential existence differs from non-existence, I would point out that some things cannot exist necessarily, such as the square circle. From this perspective, there are two kinds of things that don't exist. Things that do not exist and do not have the potential to exist, and things that do not exist yet have the potential to exist. Again, I'm not sure that KF is using the different terms in this manner, but this is certainly one way of making sense of their use. Phinehas
RDF: I'm seeing a lot of words, but not a lot of sense. Let's try to simplify this even further. Having already agreed that the following is a Big Question: Can a human be very certain that humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions? I say, no. What say you? Phinehas
KF, I don't know why you bother sometimes. Unless you actually engage the arguments in a pithy manner and stop trying to "correct" people and commenting on their beliefs/worldviews etc, you won't get responded to. All your history lessons and warnings of apocalyptic futures unless we, (what, all adopt your way of thinking I guess), are jut not that interesting. However I do see you have raised the point about potential existence again. Can you please help me out - at what point does non-existence become potential existence? In other words, how is potential existence any different to non-existence? 5for
PS: On yet another strawman problem. No one of significance is saying that worldviews as a whole are proved like mathematical systems. But there are certain key points that are self evident and help keep us from wandering off into the weeds. That is what first principles of right reason are and do. If you are willing to live with scientific and courtroom findings on much the same basis, it is selective hyperskepticism to demand mathematical rigour of worldviews one does not like. It is a strawman fallacy to suggest or imply that serious and informed people who adhere to worldviews you don't like, think they have such grand deductive systems of thought. The fact that I normally stress warrant as opposed to proof, for just one indicator, should be a clue. So should -- SHOULD -- be the discussion of ropes vs chains and cumulative cases. But then, on ever so many excuses, you have insisted on refusing to read. All that does is makes you responsible for what you SHOULD know but refuse to examine. kairosfocus
RDF: Why do you insist on making assertions that have long since been corrected? Do you not realise that drumbeat repetition cannot convert error into truth? For instance, you have made much song and dance against something "receiving" existence, despite repeated correction and explanation. This, in a nutshell means that something which could exist is actualised through a sufficient cluster of causal factors, which must at minimum include all ON/OFF enabling ones. So, for example 150 years ago, your existence was obviously possible, but not actual. Presumably, some decades ago, you were conceived and born, then raised and educated. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you -- a potential being -- received existence and are today an actual human being. The sort of behaviour you are carrying on with red flags you as an ideologue, unresponsive to facts and reason, multiplied by an attitude of seeking and declaring rhetorical triumphs in the teeth of cogent evidence to the contrary. Indeed, at this point you are reminding me more and more of the academic opponents of Galileo, who were so convinced of their system and so dismissive of Galileo that on one excuse or another they refused to look through his telescope, at Jupiter and its moons, or the Moon,etc. I strongly suggest to you that you need to take a pause and think again about what you have done above and are still continuing to do, for willfully continued misrepresentation is not without grave moral significance. (But then, such seems to be a stock in trade of ever so many champions of evolutionary materialism and its travelling companions.) KF kairosfocus
Hi FG,
In other words, he is of the view that nobody knows how to tell which view is true of the Big Questions. This is totally consistent with my exposition of 1).
Ah, thank you!
As far as I can tell RDFish is an intelligent guy, and I think he has thought these things through a bit more than some here give him credit for.
And thank you for that. Frankly, I don't think that Stephen or Phinehas think I'm not intelligent or knowledgable about these issues; I think it is a very difficult thing to be faced with arguments against deep-seated beliefs, and people have a number of ways of discounting ideas that cause cognitive dissonance. By the way, FG, I knew you back in ARN days too (aiguy). Cheers, RDFish RDFish
fG: Pardon, but the problem is self-referential incoherence. That we are limited in our knowledge and are prone to errors is a generally accepted fact. It has long been appreciated, as my cites from Locke and Greenleaf document. Indeed, Plato's parable of the cave is about that. However, there is a very big step from that to the sort of absolutised -- yes, absolutised -- claims RDF is making. And in fact, lo and behold, going back to Josiah Royce, the very reality of error is a pivotal point where we CAN know answers to certain key big questions for certain. Cf. here. Indeed, as I have been trying to get RDF to simply read -- his excuses to not do so have from very early on dipped into outright false accusations of trying to make money and the like (and no, you cannot then pass such off as a joke) -- the Royce proposition, Error exists, is undeniably true, thus self-evident. It is moreover an example of objective truth, of knowledge beyond reasonable doubt and more. This already decisively undercuts several fashionable worldview claims. And yes, that was put on the table from the outset of this long thread, just willfully and repeatedly ignored by RDF, sometimes with resort to well poisoning and worse rhetorical tactics. So, yes, RDF may well have been tutored in the fashionable schools of thought of our time, and the views he asserts are commonly thought of as correct; he probably got his A's on his term papers and more. They are however demonstrably not correct, as has long since been shown -- right from the beginning in what RDF in his confidence that that cannot be so, has refused to read and reflect on. The self-referential incoherence P has highlighted is a sign of just that error. And, given the state of our intellectual culture (due to the dominance of evolutionary materialism, which ENTAILS radical relativisation of knowledge, mind and the denial of genuinely responsible freedom, as Provine pointed out and as Plato warned long before him in The Laws Bk X), that it should embrace and even entrench and defend with heavy cultural artillery certain popular but massively erroneous notions should be no great surprise. Nor should it be a surprise that many, who should know better, will seek accommodation with the wielders of such cultural firepower. It is dangerous indeed to be right when dominant factions of the academy, cultural institutions and the big media houses as well as bureaucratic agencies, law and government alike are wrong. KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
I’m not the one who is shockingly confused here.
I didn't say it was shocking! You are just confused, that's all.
Phin: RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
If you look at what I've said, I said we presently have no way of telling, and not we can have no way of telling what is true. Over and over, I've said we do not know.
RDF: [R]ight – nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don’t know.
Uh huh - that's what I've been saying :-)
Above, RDF says that nobody knows the very same thing he just said he was very certain about: Phin: RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. RDF: I feel very certain about this, yes.
This seems so patently clear and obvious to me - what are you thinking? The simple fact of the matter is nobody knows the answers to these questions. That is not contradictory and not complicated and not incoherent. It is apparently upsetting to you, however.
RDF has claimed that both of the following are correct: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
In other words, we have no good reason to think that anybody knows how to tell what is true about them. Nobody agrees on how we might answer them. It's not like there is some possibility that everybody actually agrees on this and I didn't get the memo, or that maybe there is an air-tight and compelling argument for one answer or another - that is obviously not what I'm saying. I'm saying nobody has any good reason to think that anybody knows the answers to these questions.
2. RDF knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
What I've said I was certain about is that we presently have no way of telling who might be right. In my view, it is likely that nobody is correct: I (and many philososphers too) believe that we are not even asking the right questions regarding free will, creation of the universe, and so on.
These are contradictory statements. Both cannot be true at the same time. Therefore, RDF’s position is incoherent and will remain so until he abandons either (1) or (2) above.
Sorry Phinehas, but this is really silly. You are trying to play some sort of word game, interpreting what I've said as a contradiction. It is like StephenB here giving up on all his arguments then focussing on some dopey strawman about finding citations about philosophers who remarked on his odd way of phrasing "recieving existence". There is no contradiction here. People don't know the answers to these questions, Phinehas, and that is what I'm saying, and rather than trying to argue that people really do have well-supported beliefs about these things, you are trying (not very well) to be clever and claim that I am being incoherent. If you think that I'm wrong, and that anyone actually does have a generally accepted answer to any of the questions I've mentioned, then it behoove you to say so. If any one religious doctrine or metaphysical position has been clearly shown to be true on these questions, why haven't people generally agreed to it? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Phinehas, If I may weigh in for a moment? On the face of it you have exposed a contradiction in RDFishes argument by juxtaposing two of his statements. However, think for a moment what the statements actually mean in practice: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. This refers to the actual situation that there are just about as many different and often mutually exclusive views on the Big Questions as there are people expressing them. Clearly there are insufficient arguments for any one of these views compelling enough to convince everybody else of its validity. What does that suggest? It suggests that, even though one of the views may actually be the true one, we don’t actually have a way of identifying which one that is! The net effect of this situation is equivalent to nobody knowing if we have a way of telling which view is true (although sometimes in these debates you get the feeling that everybody knows which view is true – to be specific, their own!). 2. RDFish knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. In other words, he is of the view that nobody knows how to tell which view is true of the Big Questions. This is totally consistent with my exposition of 1). As far as I can tell RDFish is an intelligent guy, and I think he has thought these things through a bit more than some here give him credit for. fG faded_Glory
RDF: I'm not the one who is shockingly confused here.
Phin: RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
RDF: [R]ight – nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don’t know.
Above, RDF says that nobody knows the very same thing he just said he was very certain about:
Phin: RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
RDF: I feel very certain about this, yes.
RDF has claimed that both of the following are correct: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. These are contradictory statements. Both cannot be true at the same time. Therefore, RDF's position is incoherent and will remain so until he abandons either (1) or (2) above. Phinehas
PPPS: And another, from Simon Greenleaf, in opening remarks in his Treatise on Evidence, Vol I part I ch 1: _________ >> The word Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or dis-proved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which. excludes all possibility of error, and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction.
[F/N:] 1 See Gambler's Guide to the Study of Moral Evidence, p. 121. Even of mathematical truths, this writer justly remarks, that, though capable of demonstration, they are admitted by most men solely on the moral evidence of general notoriety. For most men are neither able themselves to under-stand mathematical demonstrations, nor have they, ordinarily, for their truth, the testimony of those who do understand them ; but finding them generally believed in the world, they also believe them. Their belief is afterwards confirmed by experience; for whenever there is occasion to apply them, they are found to lead to just conclusions. Id. 196.
Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone ; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not con-sistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and sat-isfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the produc-tion of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reason-able doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man ; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest . . . >> _______________ This of course has to do with courtroom standards, in a foundational work for modern jurisprudence. However, the principles extend far and wide to matters of fact and serious conduct, including -- as the cite from Gambler shows -- practical mathematics, and also science. In his Testimony of the Evangelists, Greenleaf goes on to cite the above and highlights what he called the error of the skeptic, which is selective hyperskepticism:
The error of the skeptic consists in pretending or supposing that there is a difference in the nature of things to be proved; and in demanding demonstrative evidence concerning things which are not susceptible of any other than moral evidence alone, and of which the utmost that can be said is, that there is no reasonable doubt about their truth . . .
Now, let RDF show us reasonable, specific grounds to doubt or dismiss that Error exists is undeniably true, or that by the fact of distinction, we may see that a world partition obtains once there is a generic thing A: W = {A | NOT-A}. Similarly, let his show cause to object that for A to be possible of existence, its attributes must be coherent, i.e that they must not stand in contradiction, similar to how the contradiction of squarishness and circularity renders a square circle an impossible object. Then, let him show on such basis or other, that the law of non-contradiction is not relevant to the possibility of existence of an object, and thence to the principle of sufficient reason, contingent vs non-contingent objects (these last being necessary beings). if he doubts that necessary beings exist let him show cause to reject that 2, i.e. the number, is a necessary being, or that the proposition 2 + 3 = 5 is a necessary being. Then, let him show good reason why we should reject that the lighting of a match does not show us the reality of necessary, enabling ON/OFF causal factors -- here, fuel, heat, oxidiser, and chain reaction. On that strength let him then refute the point that for an object to exist it must be possible and either contingent or necessary, thence if contingent, it has a beginning and is caused, having ON/OFF enabling factors. In that context, then, let him explain and warrant to us how an object with a beginning, B, can have no such enabling factors [E1, E2, . . . En] so that it can arise without cause. Failing such demonstrations by competent ,satisfactory evidence, we may dismiss his assertions above as so much ideological posturing. KF kairosfocus
PPS: Here is a real, major voice, Locke speaking in the introduction to his essay on human understanding, Section 5: ________ >> Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.] >> ____________ kairosfocus
PS: Let's see if he can recognise the significance of the rope (vs. chain) principle for building a cumulative worldview case. kairosfocus
F/n: As said, self-referentiality leading to incoherence and self-undermining is a real bear for RDF. Meanwhile, weeks on, RDF is still hurling elephantine lit bluffs appealing to un-named collective authority, while refusing to examine so simple a test case as Josiah Royce's Error exists, cf. here. I am fairly sure that a demonstrable case of undeniable, self-evident, knowable truth is significant and answers to a host of major, fashionable worldview claims -- "big questions" -- that make the one step too far into self-defeating absurdity. (What's interesting is the significance of the point that one of the undeniably certain claims is so humbling: error exists, so a wise thinker will want sound tools for detecting and correcting same -- hence, first principles of right reason.) If RDF then deigns to read on further, he may just find a basis for confidence in first principles of right reason including the identity cluster and the PSR with corollaries. In that context, he may then find a framework for worldview construction on comparative difficulties leading to a reasonable faith. But, I predict, he will ignore, red herring or strawmannise yet again. So, we need to recognise he is simply recirculating talking points and trumpeting claimed rhetorical triumpphs. Sad, but an example of what is going on with ever so many in our generation. KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
OK, let’s spell it out.
Great!
1. RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
I feel very certain about this, yes.
2. RDF agrees that whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions is itself a Big Question.
Yes - we have no idea how we might answer these questions, even though people have been trying for a very long time.
3. Therefore, RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
Again, right - nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don't know.
RDF has claimed that he, a human, is certain about that which his own claim says that no human can be certain. This is a self-referentially incoherent position for RDF to take.
Wow! You are so confused! Are you somehow not understanding the fact that if one cannot tell if one is certain about something, then... by definition, one is not certain about it?!?!? You think that by pointing out that we have no idea how we can be certain of the Big Questions, that somehow makes our uncertain speculations about the Big Questions certain? That really is the oddest argument I've come across in a while. It's like you think two uncertainties cancel each other out or something. Here it is as simple as it can be, using "free will" as the example Big Question: 1) Nobody knows if we have free will - we have no certainty in any answer to this question 2) Philosophers have thought about this for millenia, including thinking about how we might ever decide the question 3) Nobody is certain about how we might come up with a certain answer this question 4) That means the answer is uncertain!!! It's not like it's a 50-50 chance that somebody actually does know the answer; we just do not know the answer and we do not know how we might go about justifying one belief or another about it. And that is why after thousands of years of debate we are no closer to an answer.
Will he now abandon it?
On the contrary! You all see self-referential paradoxes everywhere they do not exist! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
OK, let's spell it out. 1. RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF agrees that whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions is itself a Big Question. 3. Therefore, RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions. RDF has claimed that he, a human, is certain about that which his own claim says that no human can be certain. This is a self-referentially incoherent position for RDF to take. Will he now abandon it? Phinehas
RDF: Hint, self referentiality is always a bear. KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
1. RDF claims that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
Yes you are correct.
2. RDF agrees that whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions is a Big Question.
Of course: Epistemology in general is an unsolved question of central importance. Various philosophers (including of course Christian apologists) have attempted to build arguments for the existence of a god or gods based on our experience or self-evident logic, and likewise establish positions on the other Big Questions. I think it's clear that none of these has succeeded, and certainly none has gained anything of the sort of consensus agreement that has been achieved in other areas of human inquiry. We reach consensus on a vast variety of beliefs across cultural and ideological boundaries: Most people agree that atoms exist, and electromagnetic fields, and that bacteria and viruses exist and cause diseases, and that inherited traits are encoded in chromosomes, and that physical balance is coordinated in the cerebellum, and that the First World War occurred, and so on and so on. In contrast, philosophers and theologians have argued for millenia about questions such as "Why is there something rather than nothing?" and "What is the relationship between the body and the mind?" and "Are human actions determined in the same way other events are?" and so on, and there are just as many differing views now as their ever was, and nobody has any idea how to decide who is right.
3. RDF is apparently unaware of the incoherence of his own position.
My position is incoherent? Really? I could imagine that you disagree with my position, perhaps by trying to support one apologetic or another. But I don't think taking the position that nobody has successfully demonstrated the existence of the Christian God, or libertarian free will, or things like that is... incoherent! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF: My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling. Phin: And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question. RDF: Actually no, I think this is one of the things that great thinkers have indeed thought and written about extensively through the ages. RDF: I really don’t understand your point here.
1. RDF claims that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF agrees that whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions is a Big Question. 3. RDF is apparently unaware of the incoherence of his own position. Phinehas
PS: As for "acausal universe" this needs to be examined in light of contingent/necessary being. That which begins is contingent and has one or more ON/OFF enabling factors. If a candidate contingent being is possible, a sufficient cluster of factors will trigger its beginning, and must enfold at least all of its ON/OFF enabling factors. This is the evident class of being of the observed cosmos, cf. evidence of a big bang. Now, what happens is that there is another class of possible being -- as repeatedly pointed out with implications and as usual ignored by RDF in his haste to king of the mountain knock over the strawman contests -- necessary beings. These are indeed without cause, have no beginning or end, and as atomic matter is contingent, are not made of such. The key fallacy in RDF's argument is he tries to suggest beings that have a beginning without cause, in light of ON/OFF factors. He will be unable to provide cases (quantum events don't count as they have ever so many enabling factors) and will not address the implications of a candidate possible or actual being that has no dependence on external factors, i.e. it would have to be a necessary being, as either it exists necessarily or else it is impossible. So, beings with beginnings will invariably turn out to depend on external enabling factors. Let us leave RDF with the challenge to give an example to the contrary, on good evidence; failing which we may comfortably dismiss the confident manner assertions as ill-informed at best. RDF's candidate is: ________, on evidence that: _____________ . (Prediction, he will be unable to successfully fill in cases in point and will ignore or play strawman tactic games and/or red herring games. Case in point of a contingent being: a lighted match flame. Case in point of a necessary being: the truthful proposition, 2 + 3 = 5. Both, as repeatedly presented and ignored by RDF. Case of an impossible candidate: a square circle, impossible as attributes stand in mutual contradiction. Further major candidate necessary being backed up by serious evidence (never mind ever so many dismissals -- they uniformly fail to show what they need to -- that God is IMPOSSIBLE; a serious candidate necessary being will either be impossible or actual, cf. S5 for some of why): God. It is commonly said that true propositions are eternally contemplated by God.) kairosfocus
F/N 2: Yet another strawman set up and knocked over:
RDF: Your idea that something can “potentially exist” and then “receive existence” is incoherent. There is nothing that can have all of its properties except existence, and then be given existence. That is what is meant by treating existence as a predicate, and that is what I’m saying most philosophers recognize as being incoherent.
With all due respect, rubbish. Strawman tactic rubbish maintained in the teeth of a clear corrective discussion of cause and being given many times above. So also, willfully maintained misrepresentation. What is pivotal here is that we have possible and impossible candidate beings. Let's go back to the red ball on the table that RDF studiously refuses to discuss. This ball was made at some point and eventually put on the table. (Above, we discussed how a red cricket ball is made and linked a video.) So, let's label it A. A is actual. That means it was possible, and that possibility was actualised. Possible? Yes, a bright red cricket ball made from a cork core wrapped tightly with twine then covered with leather quarters (or at lesser standard, halves) stitched together with a special set of rings of stitches that plays such a part in its characteristics, is based on attributes and arrangements that are coherent, consistent with one another. (A baseball is of similar construction, and the decision to make the one rather than the other shows strongly how both are contingent. And BTW, it is commonly reported that while officially red and white cricket balls have the same construction apart from the dyes used, they apparently play and wear differently, maybe the changed chemical processing causes a difference. Subtle differences make a difference, i.e. a cricket ball is a fine tuned functionally specific and complex system.) By contrast, a square circle is based on a contradiction: attributes to be squarish contradict those to be circular. Such is an impossible being and cannot be actualised. This of course highlights how coherence in attributes is a necessary condition of potential being. Thence, of actual being when somehow the ingredients are mixed and the cake is baked, so to speak. Now, it is obvious that unless something is possible, it cannot be built. And therefore a candidate to be actualised as a thing, must be possible. This -- as pointed out and repeatedly ignored -- implies that coherence of attributes is a requisite of being an actual thing. The law of non-contradiction is inextricably entangled in possibility of -- much less actualised -- being. (RDF has spent much effort in trying to make us imagine this is not so and has repeatedly ignored this correction.) So, while RDF heaps rhetorical scorn on the notion of something that has its characteristics except existence then somehow gets that one last magic ingredient, we all know that to become real a suggested candidate for being must be possible. That holds for red cricket balls in a shop showcase in Davy Hill Montserrat sitting next to the new-fangled white balls, and it holds for universes too. What SB has pointed out repeatedly, only to see what he said twisted into a strawman that is set up and knocked over, is that our observed universe -- NB: estimated age typically dated as from a big bang some 13.7 BYA -- had to be possible in order to become actual, and that it is only once it was actualised that it would be there, complete with conservation laws such as those of momentum, angular momentum, electrical charge, mass-energy, etc. Moreover, on multiple lines of evidence that observed universe sits at a finely tuned, functionally specific complex operating point that is deeply isolated in what seems to be the space of possible sets of laws, parameters and brute givens. This fine tuning enables it to support the existence of C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital code based algorithms to carry out key life functions using precise molecular nanomachines. Life, such as we enjoy. All of which points strongly to purposeful design. It is eminently reasonable that it is only at the point where the cosmos comes into being that it is complete, including conservation laws. RDF, as pointed out repeatedly and ignored, is overlooking the lesson of Lord Russell's inductive turkey. It formed the generalisation that it would be fed at 9:00 am sharp every morning outside the Kitchen door, and so it confidently showed up on a very special day indeed: Christmas Eve. Chop. That is, a general pattern inferred inductively cannot ever forbid that there are special circumstances where there is a wider pattern in which the narrower one does not hold. Where, the beginning of the observed cosmos is as special a circumstance as one gets. This has been repeatedly pointed out to RDF, and just as repeatedly ignored by him in his haste to set up and knock over a strawman, then announce a rhetorical victory. Let us take due note. KF kairosfocus
F/N: Let's keep our eyes on the ball: grounding worldviews reasonably, which includes first principles of right reason -- all of which RDF (while playing a give with the right hand, distract attention, quietly take back with the left rhetorical game . . . ) has consistently sought to undermine because he does not like the connexion SB and I have made to grounding theism as an intellectually responsible worldview. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
RDF: Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of “First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe”. SB: Again, I must point out that this statement is a flat out misrepresentation of the highest order. It’s as bad as it gets.
Here is what you said @574:
“There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it?”
In your explanation, you are saying that there were time-ordered events that happened before the universe was created! You said there was no law of conservation UNTIL God makes one! That means that FIRST there is no law of conservation, and THEN at some later point, God makes one. These words all imply TIME, which does not exist outside of spacetime. It is therefore no misrepresentation whatsoever (much less "of the highest order"!): You explain things by having the Creator perform time-ordered tasks outside of spacetime, which is incoherent. Take responsibility for your bad arguments, Stephen - they are not my fault.
RDF: I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”. SB: It was you who tied them together.
YES! It was me who tied them together indeed! Your view of "potential existence" is incoherent because it treats existence as a predicate, and that is indeed what I pointed that out to you.
So, clearly you are saying that someone cannot receive existence on the grounds that you and most philosophers believe believe that existence cannot be used as a predicate.
And yet again: Your idea that something can "potentially exist" and then "receive existence" is incoherent. There is nothing that can have all of its properties except existence, and then be given existence. That is what is meant by treating existence as a predicate, and that is what I'm saying most philosophers recognize as being incoherent.
I realize that it makes no sense since existence is a noun, but it is your objection not mine, and you did associate it with “most philosophers.” It was your justification for saying that something cannot receive existence. I didn’t create that tangled web. You did.
I have no idea what this means, sorry.
So, we are back to the beginning. Where are your citations from these philosophers who agree with you that something cannot receive existence on the grounds that existence “cannot be used as a predicate.”
I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”. This wouldn’t even be something a logician would weigh in on. For the eleventh time, it was I who claimed that your conception of a potentially existing object receiving existence was tantamount to treating existence as a predicate. I don’t ever remember any philosopher commenting on “potential existence” or “receiving existence”. Now, can you defend your argument that LNC -> LoC without trying to run away? No, you can't. You have never once addressed my argument against you - you just desperately try to throw up this strawman argument. My argument is very simple: THE LNC IS PERFECTLY COMPATIBLE WITH AN ENTIRELY ACAUSAL UNIVERSE. Where is your counter-argument? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF@682
I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”.
It was you who tied them together. SB: "Only the giver of existence is doing something. The receiver of existence is doing nothing. There really isn’t any question about what that means." RDF
You just want to go over and over this, but I’ve already agreed to disagree about it. You believe that existence can be consistently treated as a predicate, and I (and most philosophers) believe the opposite. Let’s move on.
So, clearly you are saying that someone cannot receive existence on the grounds that you and most philosophers believe believe that existence cannot be used as a predicate. I realize that it makes no sense since existence is a noun, but it is your objection not mine, and you did associate it with "most philosophers." It was your justification for saying that something cannot receive existence. I didn't create that tangled web. You did. So, we are back to the beginning. Where are your citations from these philosophers who agree with you that something cannot receive existence on the grounds that existence "cannot be used as a predicate." StephenB
RDF:
Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of “First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe”.
Again, I must point out that this statement is a flat out misrepresentation of the highest order. It's as bad as it gets. StephenB @462
Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation.
StephenB
And the red herring chase continues. kairosfocus
Hi Stephen, You are a glutton for punishment I see. Very well...
RDF: This makes no sense because if something doesn’t exist it can’t receive anything and it can’t have or not have anything. It can’t begin or end or do anything at all… because there is no “it”. You are referring to nothing as though it was already something. SB: Would you like for me to cite more examples?
Only if you'd like to for some reason. I found that argument of mine quite compelling, but you didn't seem to understand it, so we moved on to a simpler and more direct rebuttal of your argument (your argument was that the LNC logically implied the LoC).
You said more than once that it is illogical to say that someone can receive existence and you also claimed that most logicians would back you up. Now you want to call it a strawman.
I have quoted myself now many times. I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can "receive existence". This wouldn't even be something a logician would weigh in on. For the tenth time, it was I who claimed that your conception of a potentially existing object receiving existence was tantamount to treating existence as a predicate. I don't ever remember any philosopher commenting on "potential existence" or "receiving existence". If you don't understand what I just said, please re-read it, so we don't have to go through this yet again.
Concede that it is not illogical to refer to received existence
Concede???? I think the whole concept of "potential existence" and something "receiving existence" is utterly incoherent, and I have argued that many times.
...or produce your evidence that virtually all logicians hold the contrary position.
I've explained this too many times. Read this post again, and again if necessary, until you understand it. You won't even comment on the argument I gave you that ultimately demolished your claim (LNC->LoC)! You have lost this point like the others, Stephen, and it won't help for you to worry this strawman like a dog with a bone. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF
As for logicians and “receiving existence” – for the third time, it’s a strawman: I said logicians believed that existence isn’t a property. You are holding on to this little strawman like it’s a life preserver, hoping to redeem yourself by finding one single thing – anything that I might have been wrong about. No such luck I’m afraid.
It's no strawman. It is RDF now trying to have it both ways. Here @372 is just one example of your ongoing theme: SB: An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. RDF
This makes no sense because if something doesn’t exist it can’t receive anything and it can’t have or not have anything. It can’t begin or end or do anything at all… because there is no “it”. You are referring to nothing as though it was already something.
Would you like for me to cite more examples? You said more than once that it is illogical to say that someone can receive existence and you also claimed that most logicians would back you up. Now you want to call it a strawman. Sorry, that doesn't work. You have two choices: Concede that it is not illogical to refer to received existence or produce your evidence that virtually all logicians hold the contrary position. StephenB
Hi Vivid,
No that is not what I am asking. I am asking what you think.
I've told you what I think, but I'll tell you again: I think that nobody knows. Despite what you may say, that really is a valid opinion, and I think it is the most truthful. We know all sorts of things, but there are many things we don't know, and I'm just the sort of person who likes to keep that straight. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: No, you’re wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling. PHIN: But your perspective on this is only valid if there is no God or at least no Revelation of God, so asserting that “we humans have no way of telling,” only follows after making assumptions about that which you claim no one can have any knowledge.
Eh? Must I believe in space aliens in order to say nobody knows if there is life elsewhere in the universe?
In other words, unless someone can actually know something about God’s existence or non-existence or ability or inability to Reveal Himself to humans, you are choosing to believe that, “we humans have no way of telling,” purely as a faith statement.
Well, no, this is not a faith statement. We also have no way of telling if there are other universes, and no way of telling when a particular atom of uranium will decay. These are statements of fact, not faith: There are actually no means by which we can presently answer these questions.
You misunderstand me. I’m not welcoming you to my life of faith. I’m welcoming you to your own life of faith.
I understood just fine. I won't try to get you to "see the light" and give up your faith in God, and I'd expect you to respect my beliefs in the same way.
LOL! Well, you’ve certainly asserted that a difference exists (and lots of other things) with an exceptional amount of religious fervor!
Haha - I notice when religious people want to insult some belief like Darwinism, they like to call it a "religion" :-)
You keep talking about Big Questions and their uncertainty while at the same time displaying such certainty about the things you merely believe to be true.
Like what? There are all sorts of things I'm certain about of course - we all are certain of a virtually infinite number of things. The reason I call them Big Questions is because (1) they are central to our existence and (2) people have pondered them for millenia and (3) we don't know the answers.
One must suppose that whether or not religious beliefs are very different from beliefs about religion is a Little Question. Whether or not you should welcome someone to your own belief would be another Little Question.
I don't know what "little questions" are, but correct, these are not typically thought of as deep, traditional philosophical conundrums. Questions of our origins, mind/body ontology, and free will are of central existential import and are the stuff of the great works of philosophy. Questions about how to share your beliefs with others are not.
And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question.
Actually no, I think this is one of the things that great thinkers have indeed thought and written about extensively through the ages.
RDF: I’m not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions. PHIN: Right. You are just making assumptions about which questions are Big and which ones are Little, which, no doubt, “is a very different thing indeed.” I’m sure you are very certain of that!
Huh? Are you disagreeing with me about which questions have occupied the great philosophers in history? I really don't understand your point here. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF No that is not what I am asking. I am asking what you think. I am writing this right before a poker tourney I am in so I must be brief but I don't want you taking up bandwidth for no reason. Hopefully I will be out of pocket for 5 or 6 hours Vivid vividbleau
No, you’re wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling.
But your perspective on this is only valid if there is no God or at least no Revelation of God, so asserting that "we humans have no way of telling," only follows after making assumptions about that which you claim no one can have any knowledge. In other words, unless someone can actually know something about God's existence or non-existence or ability or inability to Reveal Himself to humans, you are choosing to believe that, "we humans have no way of telling," purely as a faith statement.
Welcome to a life of faith!
You are welcome to your own life of faith certainly! In my view, I should not welcome you to my own beliefs, and you ought not welcome me to yours.
You misunderstand me. I'm not welcoming you to my life of faith. I'm welcoming you to your own life of faith.
I have no religious beliefs – I only have beliefs about religions, which is a very different thing indeed.
LOL! Well, you've certainly asserted that a difference exists (and lots of other things) with an exceptional amount of religious fervor! You keep talking about Big Questions and their uncertainty while at the same time displaying such certainty about the things you merely believe to be true. One must suppose that whether or not religious beliefs are very different from beliefs about religion is a Little Question. Whether or not you should welcome someone to your own belief would be another Little Question. And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question.
I’m not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions.
Right. You are just making assumptions about which questions are Big and which ones are Little, which, no doubt, "is a very different thing indeed." I'm sure you are very certain of that! Phinehas
Onlookers: Notice the attempt on RDF's part to divert discussion into a king of the mountain, I won the debate and you lost nyah nyah nyah nyah game? Let's remember the tactics advocated by Alinsky in his rules for radicals:
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."
Straight out of the rule book for dirty tactics. meanwhile the substantial issue of the inextricable intertwining of the first principles of right reason in rationality, and the particular case of the link from non-contradiction to causality, is being dodged. That is deliberate, and it often works, if we allow such tacticians to get away with it. What we instead need to do here is to call RDF's attention tot he foundational role of such first principles in reasoning, and to point out the implications of playing rhetorical games around them. Above all, we must not allow ourselves to be distracted form laying a sound foundation for our own worldviews. Hence, I again draw attention here on, to what RDF has studiously tried to ignore, scant and deride from day one, then distract attention from. If we allow him to get away with that sort of poisonous distractor tactic, that is what would give him the real victory he seeks: to block consideration of that which would decisively undermine his agenda. So, let us investigate just what it is that is so dangerous to his agenda that he will spend almost any price to distract from it. KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
You cannot support this position no matter how emphatically you assert it (cf. GK Chesterton).
Yeah we've been here: I think Mr. Chesteron is pretty confused too.
If God created the universe, then God knows. Further, if God has the ability to reveal what He knows to humans, then they can know as well.
And if pigs had wings, they could fly. (I've always loved that saying). Anyway, I will reiterate to you: I honestly, truly believe that it is perfectly reasonable and likely quite healthy to have beliefs about God, the universe, and everything. I don't happen to - I'm just incapble of thinking that any one particular take on all this is true. I just argue that religious beliefs aren't knowledge. This doesn't mean they are false or wrong; it just means we can't ever reach any sort of consensus on them because there is no way of telling who might be right.
What you are claiming is only true if there is no God, and you continuously choose the perspective that there is not and then assume there can be nothing true outside of this assumption.
No, you're wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling.
You are only trapped by your own assumptions, which you can choose to set aside if you really want to.
You assume there is a God. Dawkins assumes there is not. You are both "trapped" by your own assumptions. Me - not so.
Welcome to a life of faith!
You are welcome to your own life of faith certainly! In my view, I should not welcome you to my own beliefs, and you ought not welcome me to yours. We each get to believe (or not believe) whatever we want about these Big Questions, but since there is no way of telling who is right, we should be polite and leave everyone else to their own personal beliefs.
RDF: I’m the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!! PHIN:And in the very act of doing so, making all kinds of assumptions as though you do!
I've noticed people here are wont to call out self-referential paradoxes... even when there are none. All reasoning relies on various assumptions (e.g. Kantain a priori categories like space and time), but beyond that I'm not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions. I have no religious beliefs - I only have beliefs about religions, which is a very different thing indeed. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vivid,
RDF: Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows. VB:Fair enough you don’t know.
Thank you!!
Is it possible that there is not a reason for its popping into existence?
I guess you are asking if it is possible if the principle of sufficient reason is false. That seems like a very hard question. Let's look it up and see what other people say? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB, Stephen you are beating a horse that ought to be mercifully laid to rest. You lost on every substantive point. Your main argument - that you could logically derive the LoC from the LNC - has been shown to be false. Even KF of all people doesn't believe it. As for logicians and "receiving existence" - for the third time, it's a strawman: I said logicians believed that existence isn't a property. You are holding on to this little strawman like it's a life preserver, hoping to redeem yourself by finding one single thing - anything that I might have been wrong about. No such luck I'm afraid. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Ok, fine, I’ll prove you wrong on this one just like all the others. I will look up citations IF you promise to fully concede this debate when I find them. Deal?
Only on the condition that you respond to my clarification @656. "Just show that the majority of logicians hold that it is illogical for something to “receive” existence." That is my challenge. Nothing more. You either accept it or you do not. StephenB
RDF
Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows.
Fair enough you don't know. Does this also mean that it is possible. Nothing (no existence, not anything that can be described) poof something? Is it possible that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? Vivid vividbleau
I’m the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!!
And in the very act of doing so, making all kinds of assumptions as though you do! Phinehas
RDF:
Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows.
You cannot support this position no matter how emphatically you assert it (cf. GK Chesterton). If God created the universe, then God knows. Further, if God has the ability to reveal what He knows to humans, then they can know as well. Omnipotence and omniscience are game-changers. God is a game-changer. What you are claiming is only true if there is no God, and you continuously choose the perspective that there is not and then assume there can be nothing true outside of this assumption. You are only trapped by your own assumptions, which you can choose to set aside if you really want to. Welcome to a life of faith! Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
C’mon RDF, describe this nothing to us.
I'm afraid you are deeply confused on this one. I'm the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!! I'm the one who says nobody knows how the universe came to exist, that we can't imagine causality outside of spacetime, that we can't imagine "nothing", and so on. It is religious folks (like Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins or William Lane Craig or folks around here) who seem to think they have it all figured out, not me! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
And dreams! Love your explanation @661, Vivid. If you think about it, even "poof" is nonsensical when speaking of nothing. Poof implies an observer, and perhaps even a place. Nothing is one of those things that is completely nonsensical until something exists, in the same way that darkness is completely nonsensical until light exists. As such, it is indeed difficult to imagine how nothing could have preceded something, or how darkness could have preceded light. It is difficult to imagine how I AM did not precede it all. It is certainly beyond my ability to fathom. Do you suppose RDF's nothing that somehow has the wherewithal to result in something is a dark nothing? A light nothing? A grayish mauve nothing? C'mon RDF, describe this nothing to us. Phinehas
Hi Vivid,
Admittedly for me nothing is a difficult concept to talk about since I cannot even concieve of nothing.
Neither can anyone else. There are certain concepts (Kant called them a priori) that our thinking depends on, and these include space and time. We cannot conceive of anything outside of space and time. I've tried to explain this here, for example, when Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of "First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe". Clearly, this sort of reasoning presupposes time, but there is no time except within spacetime - the universe. In my view, we ought to recognize that these are things our minds are not capable of thinking about, rather than pretend we understand that a human-like agent (God) performed these tasks as though He existed in spacetime.
Nothing (no existence, not anything that can be described) poof something?
Nobody knows.
The second question should be easier to answer Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? I know that logically it is your position that there need be no cause.
I said there were three logical possibilities for something that comes to exist: self-caused, other-caused, and non-caused. Stephen thought that by eliminating self-caused, he could prove that it was other-caused, but he was wrong.
And in one of your posts you thought I was conflating reason with cause or maybe it was the other way around, to lazy to go look for it. However it seems you think the two are different ie a reason need not mean cause. Anyway I am not sure why the above question is difficult to understand.
Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
blockquote>Nothing = non-being, in Aristotle’s words, what rocks dream of. Where of course, rocks have no dreams. At least there are rocks!!! Vivid vividbleau
I meant to write "Yes I have used that phrase often..." vividbleau
what rocks dream of.
Yes I have often used that phrase often but I always attributed it to Jonathan Edwards.I'm sure he was familiar with Aristotle and got it from him. Vivid vividbleau
Hi Vivid: Nothing = non-being, in Aristotle's words, what rocks dream of. Where of course, rocks have no dreams. KF kairosfocus
RFD
I don’t understand what you are asking.
Admittedly for me nothing is a difficult concept to talk about since I cannot even concieve of nothing. When one thinks about it there is nothing to talk about nor is it a concept thus the difficulty in framimg my question. I cant frame it "does this poofing into existence come from nothing"? Nor can I frame it "was there nothing then something"? Since there in no from and no was and no there there. There can be no description of nothing. So the best way I can frame my question is this way Nothing (no existence, not anything that can be described) poof something? The second question should be easier to answer Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? I know that logically it is your position that there need be no cause. And in one of your posts you thought I was conflating reason with cause or maybe it was the other way around, to lazy to go look for it. However it seems you think the two are different ie a reason need not mean cause. Anyway I am not sure why the above question is difficult to understand. Vivid vividbleau
RDF: Why do you persistently twist words? At this point, I am forced to the conclusion that -- in the teeth of easily accessible correction -- you insist on willful continuation of misrepresentations. That has sobering consequences. Can you not see that I identify two key steps of thought in response to reality and their immediate consequences. The first, recognising the reality of distinct things, generic example A, immediately yields LOI, LNC and LEM as direct corollaries. You plainly did not read what I have linked so many times, Kindly go there and look at the picture of a bright red ball on a table and the associated diagram. Next, once A exists, we may ask why . . . expecting a reasonable answer. Immediately, if A exists, it is possible. That is, its attributes -- unlike those for a square circle -- are coherent. That is consistent with one another. LNC is now deeply entangled in mere possibility much less actuality of existence. Any discussion that seeks to sever LNC and causality is futile or misleading. Which, unfortunately, is exactly what you have been trying to do. I have bolded to draw your attention at least to this. Now, we have in hand the dichotomy, possible vs impossible being, with LNC playing a critical role. On the next step, it seems you have predictably refused to pull a box of matches and strike them, reflecting on ON/OFF enabling factors (in this case, heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction). In particular, strike a match, allow it to half burn, then tilt the head up, watching it fade out for want of fuel. This shows contingency of being in action and the effect of an enabling factor being off. We are then in a position to identify the contrast contingency and non-contingency (necessity) of being. Contingent beings are effects and are said to be caused, where the ON/OFF enabling factors as just discussed, are NECESSARY causal factors. A contingent being will begin when a sufficient cluster of causal factors is present and such must include at minimum all necessary factors. Thus, LNC is inextricably involved in cause. Insofar as there is any difference of view with SB, it is that I am highlighting that t5her eis no simple linear chain from LNC to the principle of cause, and tha the principle of sufficient reason plays a key part. Now, instead of attending to the easily accessible facts, you have again erected strawmen and played rhetorical games. This underscores that you are playing at ideological agendas, not serious discussion towards truth and with disregard for duties of care to the truth and fairness. That is a very sobering thing to have to say, but it is plainly, sadly, well warranted. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
I know what you are talking about RD, and I know you are bluffing. Only losers bluff.
Waaaaa.
You were bluffing with the first claim and you were bluffing with the second claim.
Once again, the first point was your explaining how "potentially existing things receiving existence" is illogical because it requires something to exist before it exists. What is a "potentially existing thing" Stephen? Does it exist, or not exist? The second point was that existence is not a property that can be added to something, and that this has been accepted by the majority of philosophers.
RDF: I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate. SB: Provide the citation.
It is silly of you to doubt this, and even sillier of you to focus on this little detail considering I already demolished your argument without talking about the wording of your argument that treats existence as a predicate!. But I suppose you are desparate to win one, single point against me, even if it is now irrelevant. Ok, fine, I'll prove you wrong on this one just like all the others. I will look up citations IF you promise to fully concede this debate when I find them. Deal? Then you'll need to respond to @636, where I show beyond any doubt that you have totally blown your argument regarding LNC -> LoC. Here's the highlight from that one:
RDF: Oh, Stephen, I’m afraid you’ve just given away the store entirely. If you say that something coming into being without cause is the same as something being caused to exist by itself, then your whole argument that derives LoC from LNC falls apart! ... There are three options that are quite distinct: Self-caused, other-caused, and un-caused. To be self-caused is contradictory, just as you say. To be other-caused is unproblematic, just as you say. And to be un-caused is equally unproblematic! Therefore, your attempt to derive the Law of Causality from the Law of Non-contradiction is a total failure, as it relied on a false dichotomy.
Seriously, you really lost it there. You really should concede the point. Not that you will, because you don't seem to be the sort of person who faces reality. Still, it would be the right thing to do.
Where does KF admit that the LoC can’t be logically derived from the LNC?
@640 of course. "Thus, while I do not find that causality is a simple logical consequence of the identity cluster, I find that they are entangled inextricably." And that is the most intelligible thing he's said!
Better yet, RD, I will give you a total pass on your claim that existence cannot be used as a predicate since that point will not help you in any case. Just show that the majority of logicians hold that it is illogical for something to “receive” existence. I will settle for that.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What happened - you look up "existence is not a predicate"? Read carefully once again, from @610:
SB: [a] You claim that virtually all logicians reject the idea that a thing can “receive” existence even though the idea is centuries old. RDF: Not exactly, but close: I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate. It was my claim that the way you describe something with “potential existence” being able to “receieve existence” did indeed treat existence as a predicate – something that was added to a “potentially existing thing” in order to make it actually exist. (emphasis added)
You've lost this debate badly. You tried to show that the LNC logically implied the LoC, and it really, really does not. You lost all the other points too. You are reduced to accusing me of "bluffing" about how many philosophers agree that existence is not a predicate - something that isn't even relevant to any of our points now. Sad, really. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vivid, I don't understand what you are asking. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
SB: I note with thanks your discussion as clipped herein below from 626 which is discussed as showing the links between LNC and the principle of causation: ________________ >>First, I think we can agree that an effect is something that comes to be (I am avoiding the term “receives existence” since it has been heretofore a stumbling block). It comes to be either as being (something that now exists that once didn’t exist) or it comes to be as an addition to being (change). So, what else can we say about this effect? Well, either it 1) came to exist from itself or 2) it came to exist from another. (Clearly, those are our only two choices, so we are on safe, non-controversial ground. At this point let’s find out where each alternative takes us, assuming for the moment, only temporal effects that involve a “before and after.” 1) It came to exist from itself (through its own power). What is necessary for that to happen? [a] First, this effect must have the capacity to generate or cause itself (the thing that comes to be or changes elements of being). In order to accomplish that task, it must precede itself in order to do the generating or causing or changing. In other words, it must exist before it existed. [b] Second, this same effect (the thing that comes to be or changes) cannot really exist at all. It if did exist, then it could no longer be brought into existence because it would already have existence. Thus, it cannot be an effect at all. Since [a] {[t must exist to be a cause} contradicts [b] {it cannot exist at all}, 1) cannot be possible since it violates the law of non contradiction. 2) It came to exist from another source. This option presents no logical problems. Therefore, 2) must be the case and 1) must not be the case. Thus, when we consider the two possibilities 1) [a thing that comes into being or changes need not be caused by something else] or 2) [a thing that comes into being or changes must be caused by something else] and when we subject those two possibilities to the Law of Non-Contradiction, we are forced to concluded that all being and all change must come from outside the thing being brought into existence or being changed. But this conclusion is nothing less than the Law of Causality. Hence, The Law of Causality is derived from the Law of Non-Contradiction.>> __________ I note as follows: 1 --> You are specifically discussing things that begin or change, i.e. contingent things. So, you are about to apply an analysis of the circumstances under which such is possible, highlighting LNC, though of course LOI and LEM will inevitably be present. 2 --> You then consider the two exclusive, exhaustive and opposed alternatives: caused from itself, caused from another entity. (This implicitly uses the principle of sufficient reason. If A is, we may ask and expect a reasonable answer as to why.) 3 --> This then implies that you have partitioned cause and there is no third option.
(That is where RDF tried to drive in a wedge. But the wedge fails for many reasons, not least, that what blocks existence of A at any given point, is that of the relevant ON/OFF enabling factors, at least one is missing. In the case of a crater, (a) without some sort of rocky planet or similar spatial object, there is no material base with a surface to be excavated. Without (b) a means of excavating, exploding or collapsing etc, no way to form a roughtly circular hole exists. A sufficient cluster would be such a body suffering a meteoric impact, or a plinian blast volcanic eruption and resulting empty magma chamber triggered caldera collapse [most likely explanation for Krakatoa, c. 1883], or possibly outright explosion of a volcanic edifice, or being hit by a bomb that goes off properly, or even bulldozers or an army of men with shovels and a plan. As a rule alternative sufficient conditions exist but each must meet the criteria set by necessary enabling factors. And obviously, for a crater to exist across time (c) it must not be eroded away or filled in or replaced.)
4 --> You then analysed the case of being self-caused (or equivalently caused from nothing)as originating, heading for reductio. 5 --> Before something exists, though it may be possible -- which I pointed out depends crucially on the coherence of its attributes, i.e. LNC is entangled here already: square circles are impossible -- it does not exist, there is no being there to exert a causal effect. More broadly, that which does not exist has no powers to influence or enable something. So, to ascribe causal powers to what does not exist is a contradiction to the nature of cause and existence. NOTHING, non-being, has no causal powers. 6 --> That which must temporally or ontologically precede itself in order to begin its existence, is thus plainly an absurdity. So, self-creation is not on the cards. Nothingness, non-being, has no powers. 7 --> However, once something does exist there is no reason why feedback effects, lags and the like may not make for reflexive causal influences. The oscillator in electronics is a classic case in point. So is the flip flop. 8 --> This leaves us the option that if something begins to exist, it is externally influenced in such a way that it has moved from possible to actual. Thus of course the influence of a cluster of one or more ON/OFF enabling factors, which as I noted are called necessary factors. The elements of the fire tetrahedron are illustrative. (And the promotion from triangle to tetrahedron by making the combustion chain reaction explicit is in part that Halon fire extinguishers work by hitting the chain chemically.) 9 --> Thus you have used LNC in an inextricably entangled way in deducing the causal principle that that which begins to exist has a cause external to itself. (And of course this leaves open the issue of non-contingent, necessary being. Such is not caused, has no beginning, has no end, is not made from materials such as we observe, as these are known to be contingent and are credibly believed to trace to an initial cosmos-generating singularity at a finite remove in time, some 13.7 BYA on teh usual timeline.) 10 --> I agree that LNC is inextricably entangled in the deduction, however from my view it is not simply IF LNC THEN CAUSALITY PRINCIPLE, as other relevant factors are also involved. 11 --> I think that "not simply" is important, but it is to be balanced by the sort of inextricable entanglement that I have highlighted. It should be no surprise that foundational principles for reasoning should be inextricable from cases of reasoning and should materially contribute to our ability to rationally move from premises and circumstances, step by step to conclusions. 12 --> You will also note that I ascribe the pivotal self evident role here to (a) the reality of distinction that partitions W = {A | NOT-A} , and(b) the rational inquiry that asks A, so why A? Expecting a rational answer. From the first LOI, LNC, LEM are immediate corollaries, and from the second we see as corollaries impossibility/possibility of being, and contingency/necessity of being. Causality applies to contingent beings that are possible and become actualised. 13 --> No person can properly deny such a partition as that person is a self distinct from other things him or her self, and no person capable of reasoning can sensibly deny that we may ask of A, why, seeking and expecting an answer that makes sense in some way. 14 --> The rest, so far as I can see, are corollaries that immediately associate themselves, once we clarify what we are doing in taking those two acts of thought. The are also mutually entangles inextricably, as in effect a key part of the foundation of reason. Not least, this lends coherence. KF kairosfocus
Better yet, RD, I will give you a total pass on your claim that existence cannot be used as a predicate since that point will not help you in any case. Just show that the majority of logicians hold that it is illogical for something to "receive" existence. I will settle for that. StephenB
RD, just so that my request for citations @653 is understood, I want something which indicates that the majority of logicians agree that it would be illogical to say that something or someone can receive existence. If it doesn't cover that ground, it is useless and proves nothing. StephenB
RDF: With all due respect, drop the games. You are now fooling no one who cares. Do you not see how twisted your argumentation is? For instance, just now, do you not see that you have snipped out of context an observation that I made, that the LNC does not simply imply the principle of causality of contingent beings, but is deeply and inextricably entangled in the possibility of the existence of such, to try to make it out that I am joining you in debate points against SB? Let me ask on:
a: Did you even take five minutes to examine why I pointed out that the two pivotal moves in reasoning are to recognise the reality of distinct identity, A, and to ask, why A (expecting to give a reasonable answer)? b: Did you not see that immediately, the world-partition, W = {A | NOT-A} has as immediate corollaries Identity, Non-Contradiction and Excluded Middle? c: That, the why of A -- the principle of sufficient reason -- has in it the issue that A must be based on COHERENT ATTRIBUTES, unlike a square circle, which cannot exist nor can it be caused to exist precisely because it is based on the contradiction of squarishness and circularity? d: That, similarly, courtesy a burning match, we can see that in some cases there are Enabling ON/OFF Factors that must be on for a certain class of things, which we term contingent beings? e: That such is the heart of what we mean when we say that such an entity is caused? f: That, also, courtesy something like the true proposition 2 + 3 = 5, we can see a second class of being, one that has no dependence on enabling on/off factors, and which therefore has no beginning, no end, is not caused, is eternal? Namely, necessary beings? g: That therefore the existence and characteristics of contingent and necessary beings are immediate corollaries of the key self-evident principle, the Principle of Sufficient Reason once a further issue, contingency vs necessity of being has been introduced? h: Where also it would be evident PSR is inherently and inextricably entangled with the existence of a distinct thing A, thus immediately LOI, LNC and LEM?
Not exactly your "poor KF has joined me in opposing you SB" caricature. So, I call on you to stop your silly caricature-based debate games. For, your haste to score debate talking points that twist what I did say into a blatant, conceit laced strawman caricature is proof in and of itself that your behaviour is utterly insincere, driven by trollish ideological agenda and not by duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. I therefore need to speak some plain truth, hard though it will come across. I do so in hopes that one day you may wake up and realise that you have been living in a Plato's Cave world of manipulative shadow shows, and find a way to break the shackles of mental slavery and seek genuine education that will free your mind. Sadly, never mind the ruinous expense, genuine education today is not to be found in too many Colleges that have been made captive to all sorts of ideological agendas and have projected such shadow shows under false colours of learning, truth and knowledge. The consequences in schools, the mass media and even parliaments and court rooms are both ruinous and obvious around us to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that drive discerning hearts. In case -- almost predictably -- you do not know what I am alluding to or have been misled on this side of its import, here is a Youtube Video, you can look up the text from The Republic, summarised here. (Notice, the deliberate projection of a shadow-show that is artfully put up for the "benefit" of the enchained denizens of the cave. This is so apt a picture of today's academy and media cultures which willfully warp the mindset of especially the bright young person in our civilisation. ) By that latest trick, the turnabout accusation in the teeth of rather explicit warning, you have just proved beyond reasonable doubt that you are an ideologue here to play trollish games. The redeeming significance of what you are doing is that by providing an example of what has gone wrong, you inadvertently help show onlookers just how needed the corrective is. Now, there is no good evidence that you are here in genuine good faith, seeking to find mutual understanding based on solid first principles and responsible dialogue, but every evidence that you are here to push strawman caricatures, project talking point agendas and create confusion and polarisation. This last by in particular accusing anyone who gets close to exposing your behaviour. Above I ignored the "oh, you are so desperate to join our little debate" king of the mountain game. I will now remedy that. First mistake: I simply don't deal in "debates," games about persuasion -- too often by any means fair or foul -- that frequently aim to make the worse seem the better case, being therein aided and abetted by the dark, devillish, deceitful arts of rhetoric. A discipline that decent people study in the interests of self defence rather than to learn hos w ot manipulate the naive and trusting. Instead, FYI, we have a patent duty of care to seek and ground the truth and the right in our minds and lives, which entails starting from first principles and building a sound worldview. Truth, not being opinion or politically correct shadow show, but that which accurately describes reality. As in, what the denizen of Plato's Cave who broke free found out when first he saw the apparatus of deceitful projection of artful shadow shows, then was led into the world beyond the cave. painful and hard though the journey was. For he had been trapped in that ignorance that has the conceit of knowledge that had been projected in the cave. One who is far wiser than you or I warned us thusly:
Mt 6: 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! [ESV]
And he warned again:
Jn 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
It is possible to be so warped in thinking that one believes a lie and so when the truth comes, one is wont to reject it, confusing the truth for falsehood. On the record of the thread above, you are in precisely that sad position. Wake up! That is why it is so important to start from self-evident first principles, things that once one understands, they are seen to be both true and necessarily so. Things that are so plain that it is patent on trying to deny them, one lands immediately in patent absurdity. Not, on any pretence, that these will allow us to build a certainly true demonstrably proved worldview. Nope, but in the knowledge that these are try squares, levels and plumb lines that let us know when we are going out of true and are building unsoundly. Let us go back to Josiah Royce's pivotal starting point (and yes, there is a reason why I began there in the just linked section), which every time it has come up, you have willfully ignored: ERROR EXISTS. In the section I have so often linked (and which you have so studiously avoided on any flimsy excuse up to and including falsely accusing me of pecuniary interest with absolutely no basis in evidence . . . ), I go on to show why this is a first case of that which is not only obviously true, but undeniably true on pain of blatant absurdity through a breach of common sense. Let us clip in part:
1: Let us take up, Royce’s Error exists, and symbolise it: E. (Where the denial would be NOT-E, ~E. Error does not exist, in plain English.) 2: Attempt a conjunction: { E AND ~E } 3: We have here mutually exclusive, opposed and exhaustive claims that address the real world joined together in a way that tries to say both are so. 4: Common sense, based on wide experience and our sense of how things are and can or cannot be -- to be further analysed below, yielding three key first principles of right reason -- tells us that, instead:
(a) this conjunction { E AND ~E } must be false (so that the CONJUNCTION is a definite case of an error), and that (b) its falsity being relevant to one of the claims, (c) we may readily identify that the false one is ~E. Which means: _________________________________ (d) E is true and is undeniably true. (On pain of a breach of common sense.)
5: So, E is true, is known to be true once we understand it and is undeniably true on pain of patent -- obvious, hard to deny -- self contradiction. 6: It is therefore self evident. 7: It is warranted as reliably true, indeed to demonstrative certainty. 8: Where, E refers to the real world of things as such. 9: It is a case of absolute, objective, certainly known truth; a case of certain knowledge. "Justified, true belief," nothing less. 10: It is also a matter of widely observed fact -- starting with our first school exercises with sums and visions of red X's -- confirming the accuracy of a particular consensus of experience. 11: So, here we have a certainly known case of truth existing as that which accurately refers to reality. 12: Also, a case of knowledge existing as warranted, credibly true beliefs, in this case to certainty . . .
FYI, my actual task here -- especially now that it is quite plain what is really going on -- is to correct, instruct and to expose as necessary, not to play at "debate" games. And if you are utterly unwilling to heed correction, you will have so exposed yourself that the serious onlooker can see for him or her self what has been going on. Ideology posing under false colours as genuine knowledge and creating that ignorance that has conceit of knowledge. As happened with the Marxists within living memory. I suggest, one last time, that you would find it wise to read the section, to begin to clear up the willfully twisted visions projected on the walls of the cave you have been living in. Then, you may be able to begin to rebuild your thought world and soul and life on a sounder footing. And in case you resort again to Alinskyite ridicule per the notorious, nihilistic rules for radicals:
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."
. . . I remind you of the fact that Paul was literally laughed off Mars Hill. It is easy to mock at the truth, the right and the sound, that is one of the most potent weapons in the rhetor's grab bag of dark arts. But, again, one much wiser than you or I warns that the laughter of a fool is as the crackling of thorns under a pot. And just as temporary, for left to itself it ends in ashes and ruin. You think yourself wise, and so I counsel you to recognise that the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Wake up, humble yourself before your duties of care to the truth, the right and fairness, and snatch yourself out of the flames, a brand rescued from burning before it is too late. KF PS: FYI -- to correct yet another strawman, the only actual offer of warrant that the gospel preached by Jesus of Nazareth and carried to the world by apostles whom he commissioned, puts forth is the evidence of the death, burial and witnessed resurrection of a certain Jesus of Nazareth in fulfillment of the prophecies of the scriptures that were public record centuries before the event. That is why, at Athens c 50 AD, Paul brought his argument to that pivot and there rested his case. I suggest you may find the reply to Dr Dawkins' Playboy Interview -- the venue alone speaks volumes -- of Sept 2012, here at UD, a good leg up. kairosfocus
RDF: You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians). RDF: I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate. This switching of conditions will not do. I know how you like to move the goalposts. Your first claim was that existence cannot be logically used as a predicate at all and that virtually all logicians agree. Your second claim, revised after being challenged, is that it cannot be "consistently" treated as a predicate. I want a citation or credible proof which indicates that "virtually all" logicians agree that existence cannot, in any way, be treated as a predicate, which was your first claim. You need to show, at the very least, that most logicians take that position. StephenB
I will also point out that I have read kairosfocus' more extended presentation in which he also rigorously derives the Law of Causality from the Law of Non-Contradiction, beginning with A and not A. Of course, RDF has not read that report even after being prompted to do so several times. Still, RDF says that Kairosfocus admits that the LoC cannot be derived from LNC. StephenB
As a courtesy to kairosfocus, I will point out that my derivation of the LoC from LNC is @626. RDFish @647 claims that KF disagrees with me and takes the counter position, saying that the LoC cannot be derived from LNC. I have no problem with that if he does, but I find nothing in his comments to suggest that he does. StephenB
RDF:
Even poor KF disagrees with you about one of your main points! He admits that LoC can’t be logically derived from the LNC! Ouch!
Where does KF admit that the LoC can't be logically derived from the LNC? StephenB
RFD
As far as the difference between reasons and causes, I think this is an interesting topic. What do you think the differences are (if any)?
That might be an interesting discussion and I know I would be interested in your take on the subject but at the moment I am more interested in you answering my two questions. I am trying to understand this popping into existence something. For the moment lets assume no existence which includes no physical laws,no space no virtual anything than can be dscribed. I want to say from that "pop into existence" but there can be no that, or then, or from etc so. Nothing "pop into existence"?
We don’t know if things pop into existence, with or without a cause. The Law of Conservation says they do not.
I am not asking about cause. Nothing "pop into existence"? Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? Vivid vividbleau
I know what you are talking about RD, and I know you are bluffing. Only losers bluff. You were bluffing with the first claim and you were bluffing with the second claim.
I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate.
Provide the citation. StephenB
Hi StephenB, I knew you couldn't keep your word that I'd have the last word :-) Here is what I said about what logicians think, @484:
RDF: You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians).
I am talking about logician's views regarding existence as a predicate. And here is our exchange, @610, where I very politely correct your understanding of my statement:
SB: [a] You claim that virtually all logicians reject the idea that a thing can “receive” existence even though the idea is centuries old. RDF: Not exactly, but close: I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate. It was my claim that the way you describe something with “potential existence” being able to “receieve existence” did indeed treat existence as a predicate – something that was added to a “potentially existing thing” in order to make it actually exist.
Hehehehehahahahahahohohoho I think you keep forgetting that our exchanges are all right here in this page, so I can just find the relevant passage and show you (and everyone else) what actually was said. In this case, I could not have been more clear: I am claiming that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. Would you care for literature citations on that? Sure! As long as you promise to admit total defeat when I provide them! :-) Even poor KF disagrees with you about one of your main points! He admits that LoC can't be logically derived from the LNC! Ouch! Methinks you are a pretty sore loser, Stephen. When you're in a hole, it's time to stop digging. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD's delusions of grandeur persist. It must have really stung when I called his literature bluffs. Notice RD as he blows smoke:
You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians).
Hey RD, do you have a citation yet from one of those logicians who claim that x cannot receive existence from y? StephenB
KF, LOL. You immediately rejected the simple courtesy that I extended myself, and requested from you, in order to have a good faith discussion. I won the debate with Stephen, and you have lost this one before it begins by being incapable of civil discourse. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
PS: Let me point out that I stated why, in explicit details, LOI, LNC and LEM are inextricably entangled with cause for contingent objects. You willfully pretended just above that I did not. Do not go down that line again. kairosfocus
RDF: I am going to simply observe that you have managed to twist about what I have said above regarding causality into pretzels, out of which you have tried to erect strawmen -- which seems to be your style. I solemnly ask you to read the just above, and to realise that beyond this point, any more of that game will be viewed as the action of a willful propagator of misrepresentation who has persistently refused the most elementary access to corrective information and has been systematically unfair and distorting. You can start by trying to get the principle of cause and effect straight in light of possibility and impossibility of being, contingency and necessity of being. I suggest that you go get a box of matches and begin from that. When you can explain a match flame correctly and when you can contrast this to the case of a true proposition like 2 + 3 = 5, then there will be a basis for serious discussion. And if there is a willful refusal to set things right, the appropriate conclusions will be drawn. As once I had to draw such with the Marxists. KF kairosfocus
RDF: Another crucial strawman:
My main impetus here has been to show you that your idea that you could take self-evident axioms and the Rules of Reason and proceed to prove things like a “First Cause” started the universe. My demonstration(s) that you cannot derive a Law of Causality from the self-evident Law of Non-contradiction is one powerful way to show you that it is impossible to do prove your religious beliefs with logic, and your that certainty in these matters is grossly misplaced.
0 --> I begin by saying that you utterly, astonishingly, completely miss the mark on why first principles of right reason are important: as a foundation for rationality and as a key compaonent of the foudation of reasonable worldviews in general, not to debate any particular matter. On long observation, however, too many critics of design theory fail the test of basic rationality -- not to mention that of respecting the duty of care of fairly characterising what people like SB and I as well as many others actually think, argue and conclude. I cannot but find the just above not only misrepresenting of the SB I have known online for years, but a direct and sickly twisted caricature of what I have argued in my own right, e.g. here on at 101 level. In that you have repeatedly refused to simply read, on all sorts of flimsy and ad hominem laced excuses, the above utterly unfair distortion is inexcusable and disrespectful to the point of being uncivil. Please, have the decency to get facts straight and deal with us as real people not sickly twisted strawmen. I hope bolding this protest will at least draw it to your attention. 1 --> The observed cosmos -- the ONLY such actually observed cosmos -- had a beginning, per the weight of observations across the past 100 years, usually put at 13,7 BYA, and in general even without a beginning, atomic matter and even the balance of the laws of the cosmos jointly point to contingency. 2 --> So, it is reasonable to see that there are underlying necessary causal factors -- on/off enabling ones -- and that the observed cosmos is caused. This does not in itself identify or characterise the nature of such a cause, but it points on the logic of contingency to cause. That is implication of a massive empirical base, key parts of which are utterly unlikely to be overthrown. Nuclear and atomic physics have made the contingency of atomic matter beyond reasonable doubt. 3 --> Next, you pose a selectively hyperskeptical strawman within the strawman. "Proof" is simply not appropriate to a context of inference to best explanation, and the cosmological design inference on fine tuning -- cf. 101 intro here (again -- previously ignored as is your obvious habit), and onward discussions; you are patently unfamiliar -- is in that light. You need to step up to the plate with a superior empirically grounded explanation, which will be a pretty tough challenge. 4 --> I have shown that at minimum, the identity cluster is deeply implicated in and inextricably entangled with the existence of identifiable things, labelled A as a typical represenation. Thus, it is a reasonable view that in the case of contingent things, one may not discuss these things apart from LOI, LNC and LEM. I do not believe that cause is simply derivable from non-contradiction, but equally it cannot be severed from it. 5 --> Where also I have shown just now this evening, by citing you, that you have -- after weeks of discussion and repeared correction -- grossly misrepresented what the law of causality actually claims, misrepresented it in a way that is sophomoric, frankly. Let me state a simple form of the law, from so easily accessed a source as a dictionary:
Definition of LAW OF CAUSATION: a principle in philosophy: every change in nature is produced by some cause [Merriam-Webster, change would include of course the beginning of an entity]
6 --> If you cannot get it stratight that when a thing A exists we may ask why, and if it is seen to be contingent on conditions C1, C2, . . . Cn, we say it is caused, then any further arguments you make regarding cvause are at once deeply suspect. Given further that you have been repeatedly corrected on this matter from several directions and have insisted on going back to misrepresenations, indictes tha tyou are not acting reasonably, maybe even rationally, in this matter, but instead ideologically. The above then appears as agenda-driven talking points willing to distort and misrepresent in order to try to gain some advantage. Do you really want to be desrevingly identified as an ideologue rather than a reasonable interlocutor? 7 --> In this context, your triumphalistic declarations of victory above, even as you advance your cause by strawman tactics and refusals to heed correction or duties of care to fairness, accuracy and truth, rings rather sadly hollow. Not to mention the cheerleading by teh amen corner that seems to have accompanied you here. I shudder to think what is going on elsewhere. 8 --> Frankly, it seems SB has walked away in disgust, and I don't blame him. If you continue to act in the light of an ideological game, I am going to treat you as a nihilistic dark triad Alinskyite beyond this point, myself. That type is all too familiar, and we must not be naive or afraid to call a spade a spade when the evidence points that way. Let;'s just say the pivotal test you face here forward is attending to duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. 9 --> You are speaking or trying to prove religfious beliefs. This strongly suggests the projection of a familiar smear. FYI, the foundaitons of rationality are worldview matters, not religious ones. I happen to believe on reasons outlined as already linked thsat these principles and other evidence do cumulatively provide warrant that makes my theistic view of the cosmos a reasonable and best explanation of the world I live in. But that is not a matter of arguing in circles. 10 --> As in, why do I emphasise comparative difficulties in the context of "turtles all teh way down, vs in a circle vs a basis for the final turtle? Oh, I forget, you have not shown me the courtesy to actualy read and find out how I think, so you are tilting at an ideological strawman of your imagination. 11 --> Above all, my acceptance that there are first principles of right reason that cluster on distinct identity of things, A, and on being able to ask and seek to answer why A, is distinctly not a religious matter. No, it starts with such strange religious doctrines as looking at a bright red ball sitting on a table, and musing on what that is telling me, and with lighting a match and playing with then pondering its causal factors. (Yes, those silly fundies belonging to the stupid, blind and anti intellecutal church of red balls on tables and lighted matches, not to mention of Zermelo Frankel set theory, its extensions to real numbers, space and dynamics, and the like. Silly, silly silly. Stupid, insane, ignorant or wicked. Tut tut tut. NOT.) ========= RDF, it is time to set such pitiful strawmen to one side and get serious, or forever lie exposed as a willfully decetiful ideologue. G'day sir. GEM of TKI kairosfocus
Hi KF, You've obviously been anxious to be involved in this debate, and Stephen has given up, so I will try my best to engage you productively. I will ask you to try and adhere to some simple points of courtesy, in the hope that we can communicate effectively: 1) I will not insult you, or accuse you of being dishonest or intentionally misleading or anything of that nature, and I will ask you to refrain from this too. 2) I'm here to discuss and debate with people directly, so if you have something to say, write it in your post. I won't read external blogs or articles just because you tell me to. 3) I will try to be as concise and direct as possible, without changing the subject, making tangential points, or writing overly long posts. Again, I will ask you to do the same. If you can abide by those conditions, by all means, let's see if we can communicate. Here is my response to your last post.
Why do you insist on a strawman?
In the future, if I have misunderstood something, I will ask that you point out my mistake without accusing me of intentionally building a strawman.
RDF: The Law of Causality (LoC) essentially says nothing happens without a cause. (emphasis added) KF: Nope, that which begins to exist or can cease from existing is contingent and has a cause.
I'm well aware of this qualifier, yes, and that is why I added the word "essentially" when I wrote that to Vividbleau. That particular clarification was not relevant for my comment to her.
If after an exchange of weeks, you are still getting so elementary a point into a strawman form, what does that say about what else you are claiming?
In the future, I trust you will refrain from attacks such as this.
In that context, let’s ask: has SB said that the principle of causality is a simple logical consequence of the law of non-contradiction, or has he been more inclined to speak of the two as inextricably entangled, i.e. we cannot properly try to sever the two.
I have been arguing against Stephen, and my position was that the LNC does not logically entail the LoC (that is to say, the LoC may be false even if the LNC is true).
I would suggest that once there is a distinct A, there is a distinct NOT-A, leading to a world partition: W = { A | NOT-A }. In this context, LOI, LNC and LEM are immediate corollaries and are self-evident.
I accept LOI, LNC, and LEM as self-evident.
Similarly, it is self evident that we may ask and seek a reasonable answer to Why A, following Schopenhauer. This leads straight back to the identity cluster, where first, if A is possible its intrinsic attributes must be coherent (no square circles), inextricably implicating LNC directly once A simply exists. LNC is inextricably implicated in and a condition of A’s existence.
Yes, I agree.
Moreover, cause obtains if as a part of A’s identity, there is dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors (more technically termed necessary causal factors), i.e. contingency obtains. A being contingent would then imply that once A is there, a sufficient cluster of causal factors at least involving all necessary causal factors had to be present for A to begin, and that the necessary factors must be involved in continued existence. (The flame example is helpful.)
I don't really understand the way you are saying this, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying: 1) The Law of Causality (i.e. anything that begins to exist must be caused) is true. 2) The cause(s) necessary for A beginning to exist must continue to exist in order that A to continue to exist. If that is what you are saying, then my response to those two points is: 1) I do not know if LoC is invariably true; I do not think we can apply it in all contexts (i.e. in quantum events or the beginning of the universe); I do not believe it can be derived from self-evident axioms. 2) I do not understand why you would say this or how you would support this. For example, if an asteroid causes a crater to exist, the asteroid need not continue to exist in order for the crater to remain.
Such necessary factors and the sufficient cluster must be mutually coherent. Hence, it is impossible to cause a square circle to exist, as the necessary factors for squarishness and those for circularity are inconsistent.
Yes, correct.
Thus, while I do not find that causality is a simple logical consequence of the identity cluster, I find that they are entangled inextricably.
Ok, so you disagree with Stephen, and we agree that we cannot derive the LoC from the LNC. In other words, LNC does not imply LoC. Is that your position? If so, please explain what you mean by "entangled inextricably". Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF: Why do you insist on a strawman?
The Law of Causality (LoC) essentially says nothing happens without a cause.
Nope, that which begins to exist or can cease from existing is contingent and has a cause. If after an exchange of weeks, you are still getting so elementary a point into a strawman form, what does that say about what else you are claiming? In that context, let's ask: has SB said that the principle of causality is a simple logical consequence of the law of non-contradiction, or has he been more inclined to speak of the two as inextricably entangled, i.e. we cannot properly try to sever the two. Above, I know he specifically endorsed my remarks at 512 and even -- unsuccessfully -- tried to draw your attention to them. I suggest the word entail has shades that may be relevant, and should be borne in mind:
en·tail (n-tl, n-) tr.v. en·tailed, en·tail·ing, en·tails 1. To have, impose, or require as a necessary accompaniment or consequence: The investment entailed a high risk. The proposition X is a rose entails the proposition X is a flower because all roses are flowers. 2. To limit the inheritance of (property) to a specified succession of heirs. 3. To bestow or impose on a person or a specified succession of heirs.
I would suggest that once there is a distinct A, there is a distinct NOT-A, leading to a world partition: W = { A | NOT-A }. In this context, LOI, LNC and LEM are immediate corollaries and are self-evident. Similarly, it is self evident that we may ask and seek a reasonable answer to Why A, following Schopenhauer. This leads straight back to the identity cluster, where first, if A is possible its intrinsic attributes must be coherent (no square circles), inextricably implicating LNC directly once A simply exists. LNC is inextricably implicated in and a condition of A's existence. Moreover, cause obtains if as a part of A's identity, there is dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors (more technically termed necessary causal factors), i.e. contingency obtains. A being contingent would then imply that once A is there, a sufficient cluster of causal factors at least involving all necessary causal factors had to be present for A to begin, and that the necessary factors must be involved in continued existence. (The flame example is helpful.) Such necessary factors and the sufficient cluster must be mutually coherent. Hence, it is impossible to cause a square circle to exist, as the necessary factors for squarishness and those for circularity are inconsistent. Thus, while I do not find that causality is a simple logical consequence of the identity cluster, I find that they are entangled inextricably. No surprise, we are here dealing with the truly foundational, all of which must be present in a real situation. KF kairosfocus
FYI, the pivotal issue on "popping into existence" is to understand contingency of being in light of dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors, like how a flame so depends on heat, oxidiser, fuel and a chain reaction. Absent any one such factor and the thing cannot begin or be sustained. Now, it is possible to have no such dependencies. Such an entity, if a possible being will be necessary not contingent. It has no beginning or ending and so does not pop into existence. So, if something has a beginning we need to ask: why -- as Vivid has just done in a roundabout way. Let's see if he will have better luck than I did when I actually put up a discussion overnight at 631, which RDF -- as is his habit -- chose to ignore in haste to repeat his assertions. KF PS: Trying to use quantum phenomena as an escape won't work either for reasons discussed here on -- as previously linked and again predictably ignored. Quantum phenomena like radioactivity exhibit dependence on precursor factors, and that implies -- even through whatever stochastic patterns may obtain [and a stable statistical pattern reflects an underlying order behind the distribution, etc] -- the phenomena are not a-causal. kairosfocus
Hi Vividbleau,
RFD fascinating discussion.
Thanks!
When this something pops into existence is it popping from nothing?
The Law of Causality (LoC) essentially says nothing happens without a cause. Stephen thought he could logically derive this from the Law of Non-Contradiction (LNC), a self-evident axiom of logic. He wanted to do this because he wants to objectively establish that a "First Cause" exists that created the universe. I demonstrated (in two ways, actually) out that the LNC does not entail the LoC.
Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence?
We don't know if things pop into existence, with or without a cause. The Law of Conservation says they do not. As far as the difference between reasons and causes, I think this is an interesting topic. What do you think the differences are (if any)? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF
something simply pops into existence without any cause at all.
RFD fascinating discussion. I do have a two questions maybe more later. When this something pops into existence is it popping from nothing? Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? Thanks Vivid vividbleau
Hi StephenB,
RDF: The first possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by itself.” The second possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by something else. The third possibility is that it comes to exist or change without being caused at all. SB: Oh, heavens no. The third formulation is just another way of expressing the first. To come into existence without a cause is exactly the same thing as being responsible for one’s own existence. It is also exactly the same as coming from nothing. It is also exactly the same thing as coming from one’s self. These are not all separate categories. They are simply different ways of saying the same thing.
Oh, Stephen, I'm afraid you've just given away the store entirely. If you say that something coming into being without cause is the same as something being caused to exist by itself, then your whole argument that derives LoC from LNC falls apart! The reason you found it illogical for something to be able to cause itself to exist was this:
First, this effect must have the capacity to generate or cause itself (the thing that comes to be or changes elements of being). In order to accomplish that task, it must precede itself in order to do the generating or causing or changing. In other words, it must exist before it existed.
But this simply does not apply at all to the case where something comes into being uncaused!! You see, in the third option, something simply pops into existence without any cause at all. It doesn't have to "precede itself" in order to do the generating or causing. It does not have to exist before it exists. There is no contradiction, no logical impossibility at all. It just comes into being uncaused.
There are only two options: caused or uncaused–from another or from oneself.
You are fatally wrong here. There are three options that are quite distinct: Self-caused, other-caused, and un-caused. To be self-caused is contradictory, just as you say. To be other-caused is unproblematic, just as you say. And to be un-caused is equally unproblematic! Therefore, your attempt to derive the Law of Causality from the Law of Non-contradiction is a total failure, as it relied on a false dichotomy. Q.E.D.
There is nothing more to say. You get the last word. Adios!
I'm very sorry to see you quit now, just when it was getting really good! However, I'm confident that any fair reader will see that you've lost this last important point in particular, and I suppose it is as good a point as any to stop. My main impetus here has been to show you that your idea that you could take self-evident axioms and the Rules of Reason and proceed to prove things like a "First Cause" started the universe. My demonstration(s) that you cannot derive a Law of Causality from the self-evident Law of Non-contradiction is one powerful way to show you that it is impossible to do prove your religious beliefs with logic, and your that certainty in these matters is grossly misplaced. Anyway, if anyone else would like to take up these issues with me, I'd love the chance - I was just getting warmed up! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
SB: "So, what else can we say about this effect? Well, either it 1) came to exist from itself or 2) it came to exist from another. (Clearly, those are our only two choices, so we are on safe, non-controversial ground." RD:
And here is where I have been arguing that you take a wrong turn. There are actually three logical possibilities that might describe how something comes to exist (and this applies to either cause-I or -II). The first possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by itself." The second possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by something else. The third possibility is that it comes to exist or change without being caused at all.
Oh, heavens no. The third formulation is just another way of expressing the first. To come into existence without a cause is exactly the same thing as being responsible for one's own existence. It is also exactly the same as coming from nothing. It is also exactly the same thing as coming from one's self. These are not all separate categories. They are simply different ways of saying the same thing. There are only two options: caused or uncaused--from another or from oneself. If you can get anyone to believe otherwise, you are quite a good salesman--no friend of logic to be sure, but a good salesman. There is nothing more to say. You get the last word. Adios! StephenB
RDF
I would like Stephen (and you) to realize that one cannot answer questions regarding existence (origins, volition, ontology, etc) with absolute certainty by logical inference from self-evident axioms.
For the most part I agree with you other than I do think we can know at least one thing with absolute certainty.
I see you have a tendency toward sarcasm;
Yes I was being sarcastic and FWIW I apologize. You have always been respectful to me and that was a cheap shot. But in my defense, and to lighten the mood, I am not absolutely certain I even wrote # 619. :) Just having some fun RDF. Vivid vividbleau
F/N: I wonder if some objectors understand the message that they are sending above. When I see people ignoring and going back to talking points in the face of direct demonstration to the contrary, that tells me that ideological agenda is prevailing over open-minded reasonableness. That is a sobering threshold to have to face, as it means that such have to be exposed and defeated with the public coming more and more to understand that, not merely confuted in argument under the principles of civil dialogue. The last lot I had to deal with on such terms was the Marxists. KF kairosfocus
PS: Ever so much of the above grand strawman game could have been saved if you, RDF, had simply taken the few minutes to read the unpretentious note here on (forgiving whatever infelicities of expression that will happen in that sort of unliterary thing) instead of contemptuously dismissing it evidently sight unseen. kairosfocus
RDF: On the matter of obtainable degree of certainty, I think there is a difference between our degree of certainty in general on an overall view, and what obtains on some particular, specific points. This includes, especially the sort of internally self-referential matter that crops up in Royce's Error exists, and more generally the issue of the self-evident truth. For a second instance take 2 + 3 = 5, or more simply 1 + 1 = 2. Kindly explain to us how this fails of being certain beyond reasonable dispute once one understands what is being said (or once one sees a demonstration with toothpicks or the like: || + ||| --> ||||| ), in light of our experience of the world as conscious intelligences, and how rejecting such does not immediately land one in patent absurdities. (This also brings out the issue that to think at all we must recognise distinction, which implicates the identity cluster in all thought inextricably, LOI, LNC, LEM.) As a third case, consider the statement that a finite whole is greater than any of its proper parts, which is manifest in the case where ||||| --> || ; |||. SB above raisews a case of how the population of a state will be larger than that of one of its cities, and we could say the same regarding the area of the whole vs that of a city well within it. You will notice how in each of these cases, we see the foundational self-evident truths cropping up in a harmonious concert again and again. For instance, cause and effect are seen in the process of clustering and separating groups of "sticks" just above. On this matter, I repeat what you studiously avoid: the case of a simple observation that brings out several corollaries. Namely, once there is that distinct thing A, we may reflect on it [notice, it is self evident that we are going concern consciousnesses, at least to each one of us, and by extension we reasonably accept that there are other minds], and in reflecting on it we may freely ask and seek an answer to why it is, expecting a rational -- and so also coherent -- answer. This immediately implicates the issue that somethings depend on external on/off enabling factors for their existence and are termed contingent. That is particularly evident in that which has a beginning, as this raises the question SB just posed, of non-being having ability to trigger existence of being. It also raises the slightly subtler point that possibility of being depends on coherence of attributes such that we cannot have for instance a square circle. Now, you have tried to inject a third option, of a-causal origin, coming into existence. The problem with this is that it fails to examine the issue of on/off enabling factors and the consequence of having none, then mistakenly injects a beginning -- a coming into being. (I will address inductively based conservation laws in a while.) The match example you have ignored (I acknowledge my long ago debt to Copi's Logic on this . . . ) gives a good illustration: absent heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction, there is no flame. So strike a match, allow it to half burn, then tilt the head up. Failing of fuel, it will go out. Similarly, no flame will be sustained if one tries to ignite it under water. Etc. Fire fighters use such principles all the time in their work.) We therefore see how dependence on enabling, on/off prior [not necessarily temporally prior, logically or ontologically prior) factors is a characteristic of contingent beings, per a simple example. In the end, in a way similar to how we were first taught that 2 + 3 = 5 by concrete example and made the conceptual connexion and linked the symbols to the understanding we derived from demonstration. Now, consider a candidate being that is possible (the attributes are coherent) and which can be described as existing in some possible worlds. Next, see this being as having no dependence on such external enabling factors as we just described. Without OFF-blocks, such a being cannot be prevented from existing. If it is possible, it will exist in at least one possible world, and indeed it will not fail of existence in any world save on pain of incoherence. In short, such a being is actual, and without cause, without beginning and without end. It has not come into being and it cannot cease from being. A simple illustration is the truth asserted in the statement 2 + 3 = 5. (That is, this is a true proposition that never began to be true, is true in any possible world, and cannot fail of being true.) In short, the core problem with your analysis above is that you inserted the notion of COMING INTO EXISTENCE without asking why. That is, you violated PSR. And, predictably (we are dealing with self-evident truths), ended in absurdity. Causality is a direct corollary of PSR. So is the question of contingent vs necessary being. With the issue of possibility/impossibility of a given being coming up in close support, based on coherence of attributes of being. We are dealing with a mutually supportive cluster of foundational principles here, and they are stubbornly refusing to be separated the one from the other. Of course, there is a modernist substitute for self-evidence, but it is not quite the same, embedding a little error in the beginning that ends in a wide gulch of error at the end (as Adler pointed out). First, he who would impose an ugly gulch between the world of phenomena and the world of things in themselves, runs into self referential incoherence, as this implies the exact sort of knowledge forbidden. Bradley was it, pointed this out over a century ago. Better is to think that one may in part err about the external world but there are somethings we can know to moral certainty about it and other things that are demonstrably or undeniably certain. Royce's Error exists is a good first example of such. This bridges the internal and external and is factually blatant as well as being demonstrably undeniable on pain of incoherence. That is a suggested world that is such that error does not exist is an incoherence and cannot exist, it is an impossible world. On that background, we may now look at the conservation laws on mass-energy, momentum and angular momentum, etc. Notice, these are laws on CONSERVATION in a world that is a going concern. They impose certain rules of change. As SB has repeatedly indicated, this does not speak to the origin of the world, where it is having a beginning, and in fact you have implicitly implied that the material world is in some form eternal. I have repeatedly highlighted the evidence that the world we inhabit has been such that over the past century it has become more and more evident that it has a finitely remote beginning, typically projected as 13.7 BYA. The singularity, AKA the big bang. In addition to other evidence that he observed cosmos -- the only one -- is contingent in many ways, indeed the fine tuning evidence points to high contingency on the underlying laws and parameters. So, it is relevant to highlight that that which conserves is distinct from that which originates. An attribute of a going concern world cannot properly be used to dismiss the evidence of contingency and the evidence of a beginning, leading to the question of the origin and indeed the creation of the observed cosmos. Unless the particular cosmos has come into existence, there is nothing to be conserved. In addition, you have also repeatedly ignored the warning from Lord Russell's inductive turkey -- yet another strawman tactic. Let me put it in these terms: the observation of a reliable pattern based on finitely many observations (as is inevitable for us) cannot preclude a wider framework in which the observed pattern is a special case. This is in fact the notorious case for Newtonian Dynamics, well known for nearly a century now. That is inductive science is delimited and provisional. So, you have to make allowances for the possibilities that -- unbeknownst to inductive turkeys glad of a 9:00 am feed every morning by the kitchen door -- there are such things as Christmas Eves and sharpened hatchets. (And I am reminded of the magisterial saying that there is an axe laid already to the root of the tree . . . ) In short the impressive sounding case has collapsed. Collapsed for want of addressing the real as opposed to the strawman issues. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
Since we are discussing only one thing (thank goodness) we can go into a little more detail.
I agree this is far better!
First, I think we can agree that an effect is something that comes to be (I am avoiding the term “receives existence” since it has been heretofore a stumbling block).
Actually, I want to clarify right here, just so we don't get confused later. I would like to describe two types of causation. The first type (I) is causing mass/energy to exist. The second type (II) is causing something to change state or properties; all types of cause that are not of type I. Examples of causation-II include causing a billiard ball to start moving, causing a storm to form in a weather system, causing a baby to form in utero, causing a painting to be painted, and so on. Causation-II is what science studies. Causation-I is prohibited by the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy, and it has never been observed. I'm not claiming that this means it never happened - I'm just saying that by definition if an instance of causation-I has ever happened, then the Law of Conservation does not hold without exception.
It comes to be either as being (something that now exists that once didn’t exist) or it comes to be as an addition to being (change).
You have used "coming into being" to refer to both what I'm calling causation-I and causation-II. Again, causation-II is unproblematic, while causation-I violates conservation laws.
So, what else can we say about this effect? Well, either it 1) came to exist from itself or 2) it came to exist from another. (Clearly, those are our only two choices, so we are on safe, non-controversial ground.
And here is where I have been arguing that you take a wrong turn. There are actually three logical possibilities that might describe how something comes to exist (and this applies to either cause-I or -II). The first possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by itself. The second possibility is that it is caused to exist or change by something else. The third possibility is that it comes to exist or change without being caused at all.
At this point let’s find out where each alternative takes us, assuming for the moment, only temporal effects that involve a “before and after.” 1) It came to exist from itself (through its own power). What is necessary for that to happen? [a] First, this effect must have the capacity to generate or cause itself (the thing that comes to be or changes elements of being). In order to accomplish that task, it must precede itself in order to do the generating or causing or changing. In other words, it must exist before it existed.
I agree that something causing itself to exist is an incoherent concept, for causation-I. For causation-II it is not logically impossible, but rather physically impossible. For example, there could be some possible world where the laws of motion are different (i.e. Newton's first law does not hold), and billiard balls spontaneously impart momentum to themselves and begin moving. This violates laws of physics, but not laws of logic.
[b] Second, this same effect (the thing that comes to be or changes) cannot really exist at all. It if did exist, then it could no longer be brought into existence because it would already have existence. Thus, it cannot be an effect at all.
Again I agree that this holds true for causation-I. For causation-II it is not clear: Taking the example of changing the motion of (i.e. accelerating) a billiard ball, the ball exists both before and after the causation event, but the motion has changed. However, the ball could have been moving initially, only at a different velocity or in a different direction.
Since [a] {[t must exist to be a cause} contradicts [b] {it cannot exist at all}, 1) cannot be possible since it violates the law of non contradiction.
All you've show so far is that for causation-I, it is incoherent to assert that something causes itself to exist, and it is also incoherent to assert that something that already exists can be caused to exist again.
2) It came to exist from another source. This option presents no logical problems. Therefore, 2) must be the case and 1) must not be the case.
Here is the crux of the matter No, this is a false dichotomy, because you have ignored the third logical possibility, which is that something comes into existence (for cause-I) or something changes state (for cause-II) without any cause at all.
Thus, when we consider the two possibilities 1) [a thing that comes into being or changes need not be caused by something else] or 2) [a thing that comes into being or changes must be caused by something else] and when we subject those two possibilities to the Law of Non-Contradiction, we are forced to concluded that all being and all change must come from outside the thing being brought into existence or being changed.
No, you are ignoring the logical possiblity that things can come to exist or change without cause. The only reason this would be precluded would be if the Law of Causality were true... but that is precisely the thing you are trying to demonstrate by deriving it from the Law of Non-Contradiction!
But this conclusion is nothing less than the Law of Causality. Hence, The Law of Causality is derived from the Law of Non-Contradiction.
No. You have assumed the Law of Causality when you insist that something must either be caused by itself or something else. In fact, there is this third logical possibility that the Law of Causality is false, and that things can some to exist or change without any cause at all. And this is why the Law of Causality cannot be derived from the Law of Non-Contradiction.
*Notice, also, that we could have substituted the word “receive” existence for the word “come into being” and achieved the same results. The latter formulation seems much more natural to me, but it seemed prudent to avoid the latter terminology given the problems we had with the application of that word.
Yes I think leaving that wording out helps us stay on track here.
What, then, do we do with the problem of causality outside of time?
Well, this is actually our second topic, which makes for a long post, but it is an even more interesting question!
In this case, we can go through all the same steps, except for any references to time or allusions to “before” and “after.” Thus, we don’t say chronologically prior but logically prior and continue on with the proof. Every effect depends on a cause because every contingent being requires something that is either logically prior (outside of time) or chronologically prior (in time). In that sense, the universe requires a logically prior First Cause, but everything in the universe requires a chronologically prior antecedent cause.
I would argue that without both time and locality, we simply can't understand causation. Here is why: We know causation by constant conjunction, and in order to observe constant conjunction, the event must be local and time-ordered. For example, if each time I kick a ball the ball begins to move, I can establish the cause-effect relationship between the kick and the ball's motion. However, if I kicked a ball in New York and found out that several years earlier an apple fell from a tree in Los Angeles, the causal relationship between those events would be incomprehensible. It would make a brick wall appearing out of nowhere seem totally understandable by comparison! Now, here you would (or should) argue that Hume was wrong, and Kant was right, and that causation is more than constant conjunction! As Kant demonstrated, contra Hume, our a priori mental categories enable us to establish a relationship of logical necessity between cause and effect that goes beyond constant conjunction. This is the sort of causal relationship that you are describing when you say something is logically prior but not chronologically prior, correct? But here is where your approach ultimately fails: The necessity that Kant describes is supplied not by our observations but by our minds. Kant says our minds can understand cause-effect relationships in a way that goes beyond constant conjunction, and that is because of our a priori concepts. But what are these a prior concepts? Time and space of course! Here it is in Kant's own dense prose:
But all empirical laws are only particular determinations of the pure laws of the understanding, under which and in accordance with the norm of which they first become possible, and the appearances take on a lawful form—just as all appearances, notwithstanding the diversity of their empirical form, still must also always be in accordance with the condition of the pure form of sensibility [i.e., space and time]. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-hume-causality/
So if you stick with Hume, you can't possibly understand causality without conjunction in space and time. And if you try Kant, you'll see that our minds still require space and time to understand causality in terms of logical necessity.
I don’t think we need to use words such as “until” or “yet” if they do not resonate with you. As you say, there is no time ordering except on condition that time [and the attendant laws] is (are) brought into existence.
I would argue that you have already assumed the existence of time once you say that something is brought into existence. What does it mean for X be brought into existence except that at time T0, X does not exist, and then at later time T1, X does exist? How can you explain what it means without reference to time?
So, causality is preserved if the laws of conservation are simply brought into existence, that is, if the First Cause is logically (not chronoolgically) prior.
To say that something is logically prior but not chronologically prior is to say that it is prior in thought but not in reality. We can't make sense of causal relationships that do not obey temporal ordering and locality, and so we can't intelligibly speak of cause outside of spacetime. Now this is a good debate!! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vividbleau,
You are not absolutely certain that there is no such thing as absolute certainty
You are trying very hard to make this sound contradictory, or stupid, or something, but it really is simple and clear. If you read any sort of introduction to epistemology, you would understand it. There are limits to the way we justify our knowledge, and no matter what we do, we cannot remove all possible sources of doubt.
you want Stephen to concede to that which you are not absolutely certain about.
I would like Stephen (and you) to realize that one cannot answer questions regarding existence (origins, volition, ontology, etc) with absolute certainty by logical inference from self-evident axioms.
Got it.
I see you have a tendency toward sarcasm; it is not an effective debating technique.
RDF: Again, I argue that the LNC simply does not entail the LoC BECAUSE the LNC does not say anything whatsoever about the necessity of one thing causing another. VB: Above you are giving a cause ( because) as to why you argue that the LNC does not entail the LOC.But as we see your denial of causal necessity includes or at the very least implies some kind of causal neccessity in the denial.... Obviously unless you have a necessary ground ( cause) for your denial, how could your denial necessarily stand, how could your denial of the LOC convince someone that you are right.
For one thing, you seem to be conflating causes with reasons; they are not the same things. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF
In that case, “no”.
Thanks for a clear yes or no answer.
Again, I argue that the LNC simply does not entail the LoC BECAUSE the LNC does not say anything whatsoever about the necessity of one thing causing another.
Above you are giving a cause ( because) as to why you argue that the LNC does not entail the LOC.But as we see your denial of causal necessity includes or at the very least implies some kind of causal neccessity in the denial.
BECAUSE the LNC does not say anything whatsoever about the necessity of one thing causing another.
Obviously unless you have a necessary ground ( cause) for your denial, how could your denial necessarily stand, how could your denial of the LOC convince someone that you are right. On the other hand if there is a neccessary cause or ground for your denial ( which is the case here) then it is self defeating since you are using a neccessary causal connection to deny that there are neccessary causal connections. Vivid vividbleau
RD
You have in a way admitted as much already, except that you want to say that the conservation laws weren’t violated because they did not exist yet. My counter-argument to that was that your position is incoherent because it relied on the time-ordering of events outside of spacetime.
Well, no, not really. I don't think we need to use words such as "until" or "yet" if they do not resonate with you. As you say, there is no time ordering except on condition that time [and the attendant laws] is (are) brought into existence. So, causality is preserved if the laws of conservation are simply brought into existence, that is, if the First Cause is logically (not chronoolgically) prior. StephenB
Hi RD,
Still pending, among a few other things, is the problem of LNC -> LoC. I think it is an important point. Again, I argue that the LNC simply does not entail the LoC because the LNC does not say anything whatsoever about the necessity of one thing causing another. Everything in the universe could happen completely acausally, and this would not violate the LNC.
OK. This is worth a discussion. Since we are discussing only one thing (thank goodness) we can go into a little more detail. Let’s take in bite size chunks and go where the logic leads. First, I think we can agree that an effect is something that comes to be (I am avoiding the term “receives existence” since it has been heretofore a stumbling block). It comes to be either as being (something that now exists that once didn’t exist) or it comes to be as an addition to being (change). So, what else can we say about this effect? Well, either it 1) came to exist from itself or 2) it came to exist from another. (Clearly, those are our only two choices, so we are on safe, non-controversial ground. At this point let’s find out where each alternative takes us, assuming for the moment, only temporal effects that involve a “before and after.” 1) It came to exist from itself (through its own power). What is necessary for that to happen? [a] First, this effect must have the capacity to generate or cause itself (the thing that comes to be or changes elements of being). In order to accomplish that task, it must precede itself in order to do the generating or causing or changing. In other words, it must exist before it existed. [b] Second, this same effect (the thing that comes to be or changes) cannot really exist at all. It if did exist, then it could no longer be brought into existence because it would already have existence. Thus, it cannot be an effect at all. Since [a] {[t must exist to be a cause} contradicts [b] {it cannot exist at all}, 1) cannot be possible since it violates the law of non contradiction. 2) It came to exist from another source. This option presents no logical problems. Therefore, 2) must be the case and 1) must not be the case. Thus, when we consider the two possibilities 1) [a thing that comes into being or changes need not be caused by something else] or 2) [a thing that comes into being or changes must be caused by something else] and when we subject those two possibilities to the Law of Non-Contradiction, we are forced to concluded that all being and all change must come from outside the thing being brought into existence or being changed. But this conclusion is nothing less than the Law of Causality. Hence, The Law of Causality is derived from the Law of Non-Contradiction. *Notice, also, that we could have substituted the word “receive” existence for the word “come into being” and achieved the same results. The latter formulation seems much more natural to me, but it seemed prudent to avoid the latter terminology given the problems we had with the application of that word. What, then, do we do with the problem of causality outside of time? In this case, we can go through all the same steps, except for any references to time or allusions to “before” and “after.” Thus, we don’t say chronologically prior but logically prior and continue on with the proof. Every effect depends on a cause because every contingent being requires something that is either logically prior (outside of time) or chronologically prior (in time). In that sense, the universe requires a logically prior First Cause, but everything in the universe requires a chronologically prior antecedent cause. StephenB
PS: Who said or implied anywhere near this discussion that inference to best warranted explanation or conclusion demands absolute certainty? The whole province of science for one is provisional, and no-one disputes that, once they know enough: in ever so many spheres we operate on balance of evidence, and at most moral certainty where one would be irresponsible on the balance of evidence to reject a conclusion, especially on an important matter. It seems that we here have yet another ignorant- stupid- insane- wicked ID supporter strawman caricature burning, polarising and confusing the issue. KF kairosfocus
5FOR: There are indeed many things that we cannot be absolutely certain about, or incorrigibly certain about, or undeniably certain about, or demonstrably certain about. But, for some pivotal things, like error exists, we can be. I suggest you pause and reflect for a few moments on why, from multiple directions. Even imagine it is possible you are a brain in a vat under electro-chemical simulation, regarding that you got red X's for sums in primary school. If that were so, would it mean that errors do not exist? Nope, the wrong sums in the dream would still be wrong. And that's before we get to, the mistaken perceptions of such manipulated brains. And also, Vivid is right that the subjective sense of being self aware and aware of experience or perception is incorrigible and once present, undeniable. If one is appeared to redly, that is real.Such things, carefully reflected on, devastate many comfortable mantras of today's pomo views. KF kairosfocus
If absolutely certainty was a prerequisite for reaching agreement with and making concessions to others, well, I don’t think anyone could ever reach agreement.
Sorry you must have me confused with someone else since I dont think absolute certainty is a prerequiste for reachig agreement. Vivid vividbleau
Maybe a better example – do you concede that Elvis is dead?
Elvis is dead?????? Vivid vividbleau
Maybe a better example - do you concede that Elvis is dead? 5for
I'm glad you got it Vivid! It's a pretty obvious and non-controversial point. If absolutely certainty was a prerequisite for reaching agreement with and making concessions to others, well, I don't think anyone could ever reach agreement. Will you concede that New York city will still be standing in 30 minutes time? I am certain it will be, but of course I can't be absolutely certain. 5for
And once again I must remind you that you are mistaken. We cannot be absolutely certain of anything, and you will see that I have never said that we could be absolutely certain of anything. I don’t think this is a very difficult point, but you keep misquoting me.
I apologize I did not intend to misquote you I now understand your position better. You are not absolutely certain that there is no such thing as absolute certainty but you want Stephen to concede to that which you are not absolutely certain about. Got it. Vivid vividbleau
RDF:
We cannot be absolutely certain of anything, and you will see that I have never said that we could be absolutely certain of anything.
Are you absolutely or relatively certain of what "we" can be? And if only relatively certain, are you certain that we are only relatively certain? (In short, could you be mistaken? Indeed, you seem pretty certain those who think we can be certain of some limited things, re in error? And if so, are you then not certain that error exists?) And so, we are back to the pivotally important case: error exists. As repeatedly shown -- but repeatedly ignored in haste to repeat the drumbeat assertion that we cannot be absolutely certain (presumably of anything, including this) -- this is undeniably true. But, it is even more plain that a mere proof is not able to persuade those who are sure that what is actually proved cannot be so. Even, at the price of pretending that it does not exist, even when repeatedly brought to attention. The onlooker, present and future, should take due note. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
RDF: You are confusing causality and conservation. My point about conservation was that creation ex-nihilo violated mass/energy conservation by definition. It had nothing to do with causality. SB: Not really. A caused universe, compete with conservation laws is a totally different prospect from an uncaused universe, complete with conservation laws.
What I'm arguing is that we cannot say that conservation laws hold without exception, and then say that God created mass/energy ex nihilo. This is similar to our argument about libertarianism and causality: We cannot say that causality holds without exception, and then say human choices are uncaused.
Hopefully, I can disabuse you of that notion with the post @607. Obviously, I cannot take credit for its form. I invite you (check out that congenial exhortation) to pay special attention to two things [a] The various contexts in which existence is given and received and [b] the extent to which logic can further illuminate the significance of what we know about the real world.
The passage argues that denying an uncaused first cause results in infinite regress of causes; I would agree. It further argues that accepting an infinite regress of cause does not explain existence; I agree with that too. However, positing a necessary being as a first cause does not help reconcile the existence of mass/energy with our conservation laws; we still have to admit that conservation laws are violated by any sort of creation ex nihilo, whether that creation is accomplished by a necessary being, a contingent being, or by something that isn't a "being" (agent) at all. You have in a way admitted as much already, except that you want to say that the conservation laws weren't violated because they did not exist yet. My counter-argument to that was that your position is incoherent because it relied on the time-ordering of events outside of spacetime.
We may soon be starting our own website.
Yes, I'd say over 600 posts in a thread nearly qualifies. Still pending, among a few other things, is the problem of LNC -> LoC. I think it is an important point. Again, I argue that the LNC simply does not entail the LoC because the LNC does not say anything whatsoever about the necessity of one thing causing another. Everything in the universe could happen completely acausally, and this would not violate the LNC. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vividbleau,
Actually is was a request for help in understanding how you can absolutely be certain...
And once again I must remind you that you are mistaken. We cannot be absolutely certain of anything, and you will see that I have never said that we could be absolutely certain of anything. I don't think this is a very difficult point, but you keep misquoting me.
RDF: I already replied to this but apparently I didn’t make myself clear, so let me try again. VB: A yes or no would be clear.
In that case, "yes".
RDF: Many philosophers have sought absolute certainty, and most modern philosophers accept we have none. The reason is that we cannot guarantee that our own minds – our perceptions and memory – are reliable. Even Christian apologists like Alvin Plantinga accept this. VB: Alvin Plantinga is not absolutely certain that he is not experiencing some sort of subjective state?
Many philosophers have sought absolute certainty, and most modern philosophers accept we have none. The reason is that we cannot guarantee that our own minds – our perceptions and memory – are reliable. Even Christian apologists like Alvin Plantinga accept this. If you'd like to know what Plantinga thinks about the status of phenomenal experience as certain knowledge, you'll need to ask him I suppose.
RDF: (2) Any particular proposition regarding our experience is fallible. VB: Of course but are you not absolutely certain that you are, or your or something elses illusion, or your faulty and fallible memory is not experiencing?
Sorry I didn't understand this.
Are you not absolutely certain you are having some kind of subjective experience?
I'm not sure what you think the importance of this particular issue is. I've already explained to the best of my ability how even subjective awareness can be subject to various types of doubt. If you'd like to disagree, let's agree to disagree about this, and see if that leads to any more substantive disagreements regarding certain knowledge.
But really a yes or no cant be that difficult.
In that case, "no". Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Pardon, we know NOT-E to be false . . . kairosfocus
F/N 3: The truthfulness of Josiah Royce's Error exists (let us symbolise it E), in part pivots on exactly the want of certainty in our thought processes that RDF alludes to -- we make mistakes so error exists, a universally agreed easily substantiated morally certain fact. That is one way that we can be certain that error exists. The logical analysis that works on that then shows that it is undeniably true: Take E and then produce { E AND NOT-E }. On the strength of the strenuous objections we know E to be false so the conjunction MUST be false, which is saying that E is certain, given that E is the denial of NOT-E. And, surprise, the objectors to the possibility of certainty of knowledge, are pivoting on the perception that we are . . . in error, i.e. they are conceding the pivotal point, and so are showing just how well known this is. This is one demonstratively certain knowledge point that cannot easily be evaded -- except by pretending that it has not been put on the table. KF kairosfocus
RD
Again, I commend you for your clear and direct points. I think these issues are important and interesting!
I appreciate the turn of events and your contribution to that end. Thank you. I will try to do my part to make the positive interaction a regular event.
You are confusing causality and conservation. My point about conservation was that creation ex-nihilo violated mass/energy conservation by definition. It had nothing to do with causality.
Not really. A caused universe, compete with conservation laws is a totally different prospect from an uncaused universe, complete with conservation laws.
Even if there is no action, the wording indicates some sort of proto-existence of something to which the attribute of “existence” is then added. That is where the logical contradiction appears.
Hopefully, I can disabuse you of that notion with the post @607. Obviously, I cannot take credit for its form. I invite you (check out that congenial exhortation) to pay special attention to two things [a] The various contexts in which existence is given and received and [b] the extent to which logic can further illuminate the significance of what we know about the real world.
We agree that the formation of universals requires intellect and is a rational process. My point was that it could not proceed from logic.
Absolutely right. We may soon be starting our own website. StephenB
RDF
I’m not sure what you mean by “recycled back”, but what you have recounted is correct. What was your question?
Actually is was a request for help in understanding how you can absolutely be certain that there is no such thing as absolute certainty even though the assertion itself is neither absolutely true or false and you are not absolutely certain that there are limits to epistomlogical justification which is the basis for your assertion.
I already replied to this but apparently I didn’t make myself clear, so let me try again.
A yes or no would be clear.
Many philosophers have sought absolute certainty, and most modern philosophers accept we have none. The reason is that we cannot guarantee that our own minds – our perceptions and memory – are reliable. Even Christian apologists like Alvin Plantinga accept this.
Alvin Plantinga is not absolutely certain that he is not experiencing some sort of subjective state?
You ask, can’t we even be certain that there is at least one conscious mind – our own – in existence?
No I did not ask that I asked “ Are you not absolutely certain that at a minimum you are experiencing some kind of subjective state?”
Even this knowledge relies on fallible memory from moment to moment,
Yes my memory is fallible heck I may be an illusion that is why I used your term "subjective state"
(2) Any particular proposition regarding our experience is fallible.
Of course but are you not absolutely certain that you are, or your or something elses illusion, or your faulty and fallible memory is not experiencing?
Even if we can’t deny our phenomenological experience, if we can’t articulate a proposition about such in a way that is infallible then we can’t consider that even this constitutes knowledge that is justified absolutely,
Are you not absolutely certain that at the moment you think you have written the above?
nor can we (as Descartes tried to do) proceed to make inferences from our subjective experience in a way that is immune to doubt.
Are you not absolutely certain you are having some kind of subjective experience?
But I need to repeat the important point here that you seem to be ignoring: I am not interested in this sort of hyper-skepticism, where we doubt our physical perceptions and logic and reasoning and even our own minds.
I am not ignoring anything heck I am not even postulating I exist. I am asking you to answer some very basic simple questions. I have purposely asked them in different ways. But really a yes or no cant be that difficult. I understand after answering yes or no the why and wherefore's but really they are very simple questions although the reason for them may require a complicated explanation. Vivid vividbleau
F/N 2: It seems RDF has also not bothered to look at the discussion on why quantum theory CANNOT contradict the first principles of right reason, here on (read the linked continuation) in the UD WACs, per the saw off he branch on which one sits principle. Par for the course over the past several weeks and again telling on a fundamental disregard for duties of care to truth, accuracy, fairness and more. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB, Good post - thank you for your responses on our debate points!
RDF: You rejected my rebuttal, insisting that existence could indeed be consistently used as a predicate (or perhaps that you weren’t really using existence as a predicate – I’m not really sure what you were arguing). SB: Its very simple really. There is nothing illogical about using an active verb to describe a passive event. I told you this long ago, but, of course, you chose not to process it.
We argued about this for some time, so you're mistaken to say I "chose not to process it". Since I felt my position was clearly correct and backed by a majority of epistemologists (even Christian ones) I declared that we should agree to disagree on this point and move on. You have not yet responded to my other argument against LNC -> LoC.
RDF: There is no such thing as absolute certainty – do you now concede this? SB: Of course not, neither do you since you are absolutely certain that we can have no certainty. We have already been there.
You have mistated my position. We cannot be absolutely certain of anything; we can, however, express certainty about any number of things because we feel we have a relatively strong warrant for belief. We have an extremely strong warrant for the belief that all of our beliefs are subject to at least some doubt, and there is nothing contradictory about this.
RDF: Libertarianism contradicts causality – do you now concede this? SB: I explained many times why that is not the case and I went into much detail. Just go reread my explanation.
Very well, let's put this in our "Agree to Disagree" bucket. My position is that contra-causal will actually is, well, contra-causal, which actually means against causality. Here is what Wiki says about your brand of non-physical (dualist/interactionist) libertarianism:
Such interactionist dualists believe that some non-physical mind, will, or soul overrides physical causality. (emphasis added)
So it appears that the rest of the philosophical community agrees with me that libertarianism stands in opposition to causality, by definition. You disagree.
RDF: Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe – do you now concede this? SB: I don’t know what you mean by our conception of causality. Quantum activity certainly does not violate the notion of efficient or final cause.
What I've said is that our notion of (in Aristotle's scheme) efficient cause normally presumes a number of conditions, including locality and realism. Both of these assumptions appear not to apply to the correlations of entangled quantum events. Of course you can just continue to relax the notion of causality as you did with the temporal aspect: You can say that cause-effect relationships needn't be ordered in time, needn't be proximal in location, and needn't deal with things that exist independently of our minds. One problem (and there are many) with that strategy is that it becomes impossible to say how we can ever detect causality in the first place!
RDF: You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. SB: It isn’t that simple. One can do much with logic alone after one has had experience with the real world.
I think this is a very important point. When I made an argument about a fundamental claim of yours using predicate logic, you objected that my formulation of the logical propositions did not reflect the truth about the aspects of the world we were debating. And we could not resort to logic to resolve our differences! Logic is fundamentally the same as an algorithm - a computer program. And we all know that computer programs are only as reliable as the input: GIGO, right? Same with logic: You can make up any old logical formulation and prove whatever you'd like, but the proof has nothing to do with the concepts about existence (causality, origins, volition, etc) that we discuss.
RDF: You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. – do you now concede this? SB: There is nothing to concede since your formulation is not precise enough to be definitive. It depends on what you mean by empirical. I hold that all knowledge “begins” with sense experience but it doesn’t end there. You will have to explain yourself. If beginning with empirical sense experience is what you mean by empirical, then I agree. If, on the other hand, you think that knowledge ends with empirical sense experience, then I disagree.
I would say that all knowledge presupposes things (realism, LNC, etc) but it still makes perfect sense to divide knowledge into (1) that based on our experience of contingent facts about the world and (2) that based on self-evident axioms and rules of formal logic. And example of (1) would be "ice expands as it freezes" and an example of (2) would be the Pythagorean theorem. The issue arose regarding the idea that statements about the physical properties of wood or metal could be derived or evaluated using logic. For example, I said that the notion that wood might expand 2% but not 2000% is an empirical statement based on our experience-based knowledge of wood, and not a statement derived from axioms of logic. It is an important point I think because it illustrates your idea that questions about the world can be answered and confirmed merely by applying logic.
RDF: You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. SB: To identify the universal, we must first experience the particular. Thus, to know that a chair is a chair requires [a] sense knowledge (empirical) and [b] intellectual formation of an idea that represents the object of sense knowledge. The formation of an idea is a rational function, not an empirical function.
We agree that the formation of universals requires intellect and is a rational process. My point was that it could not proceed from logic. There is one school of philosophy that actually does believe the formations of universals can be driven purely by logic from our fundamental sense perceptions. This philosophy is called objectivism, as outlined by Ayn Rand and her followers. I find her philosophy horribly confused and amateurish, but if you'd like to hold to your position you may want to see if your ideas align with hers (I think they don't). Anyway, I addressed a number of questions regarding the formation of these universals in order to illustrate that it has nothing to do with logic. For example: What is the essence of a chair? Is a backless chair a chair? One with three legs? One with no legs? A boulder with a flat spot for your butt?
[a] You claim that virtually all logicians reject the idea that a thing can “receive” existence even though the idea is centuries old.
Not exactly, but close: I claim that the majority of logicians agree that existence cannot be treated consistently as a predicate. It was my claim that the way you describe something with "potential existence" being able to "receieve existence" did indeed treat existence as a predicate - something that was added to a "potentially existing thing" in order to make it actually exist.
In your view, to receive existence is to “do” something. This is, of course, not the case. The receiver of existence is not doing anything at all.
The notion of "potential existence" seems to imply that something with definite characteristics is waiting to receive existence, and then when it finally does receieve existence, it then exists. This is what entails treating existence as a predicate: Existence is not something that can be added as a characteristic of something.
It is simply being brought into existence as given by the creator.
In that case, it is unproblematic: There exists X such that X was created by the creator.
To use the active verb “receive” does not, in this case, suggest action on the part of the receiver.
Even if there is no action, the wording indicates some sort of proto-existence of something to which the attribute of "existence" is then added. That is where the logical contradiction appears.
The creator gives existence to those who receive it, just as parents give life their offspring, who also receive it.
This equivocates regarding two very different sorts of "creation". The first applies to the creation of mass/energy, natural laws, and so forth; the second merely refers biological reproduction which, as far as we know, does not involve the creation of mass/energy.
It does not violate logic to use an active verb to describe a passive event. To receive existence is not to do anything since one cannot do anything in a state of non-existence. You have failed to respond to this point.
Again, even if it is not that action is being described, it requires that something has some sort of "potential existence" to which the attribute of "existence" is then added. That is where the logical contradiction appears.
[b] You insist that virtually all logicians reject the notion that existence can be received.
Again, what I said was that the majority of logicians reject that one can use "existence" as a predicate without contradiction, not that they reject the notion that "existence can be received". If you'd like me to provide cites for that I will, but only if you agree to concede your claims as a result.
[c] You say that something coming from nothing is identical to ex-nilio creation.
This is a matter of semantics obviously - the way I was using the verb "create", yes.
Obviously, this claim really does violate logic since it equates a caused universe (ex-nilio creation with an uncaused universe (something from nothing).
Conservation Law does not have anything to do with how mass/energy gets created or destroyed - it simply prohibits it. Whether a scientist in a laboratory does it, or some nuclear reaction inside a star does it, or God does, doesn't make any difference to the Law of Conservation.
In fact, ex-nilio creation is the very opposite of the idea that something could come from nothing. I have pointed this out to you several times. Indeed, Phinehas dramatized the point by distinguishing a bomb that was created and one that just appeared out of thin air. Yet you have provided no rational responses to any of these points. How can a caused universe be exactly the same thing as an uncaused universe?
You are confusing causality and conservation. My point about conservation was that creation ex-nihilo violated mass/energy conservation by definition. It had nothing to do with causality. Again, I commend you for your clear and direct points. I think these issues are important and interesting! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
F/N: Observe the turnabout accusation attempt by AF, who knows or should know my views on responsible freedom as an unalienable right, cf here. He is pushing words into my mouth that he knows don't belong there, in order to poison the atmosphere further and distract attention from his part in a circle that has been invidiously associating me with Nazism, among many, many other thins up to and including threats against my family. The nihilism Plato warned against as something evolutionary materialism opens the door to, is right here, all around us. With a boost from Alinsky's rules for radicals. KF kairosfocus
Hi Vividbleau,
I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it appears the basis for your answer is that there are limits to epistemological justification. When I asked if you were absolutely certain that there were limits to epistemological justification you responded. No, just certain Now we have recycled back to where “there is no such thing as absolute certainty” even though it is neither absolutely true or false and you are not absolutely certain “just certain” that there are limits to epistemological justification.
I'm not sure what you mean by "recycled back", but what you have recounted is correct. What was your question?
I also asked “ Are you not absolutely certain that at a minimum you are experiencing some kind of subjective state?” I know you have a lot on your plate but my enquiring mind would like to know ?
I already replied to this but apparently I didn't make myself clear, so let me try again. Many philosophers have sought absolute certainty, and most modern philosophers accept we have none. The reason is that we cannot guarantee that our own minds - our perceptions and memory - are reliable. Even Christian apologists like Alvin Plantinga accept this. You ask, can't we even be certain that there is at least one conscious mind - our own - in existence? Descartes chose this as his bedrock assumption, and thought this perception should be incorrigible. My points about this were that (1) Even this knowledge relies on fallible memory from moment to moment, and (2) Any particular proposition regarding our experience is fallible. Even if we can't deny our phenomenological experience, if we can't articulate a proposition about such in a way that is infallible then we can't consider that even this constitutes knowledge that is justified absolutely, nor can we (as Descartes tried to do) proceed to make inferences from our subjective experience in a way that is immune to doubt. But I need to repeat the important point here that you seem to be ignoring: I am not interested in this sort of hyper-skepticism, where we doubt our physical perceptions and logic and reasoning and even our own minds. There are plenty of ways that we reach consensus on an unlimited number of propositions about the world, and if we dive down the rabbit hole of unsolved epistemological problems, we simply cannot assert anything at all. So, rather than demand absolute certainty, we instead look for strong warrant for our beliefs, and that works just fine. The more important point I've argued with SB about regarding certainty is that his attempt to ground various answers to deep questions (origins of the universe, free will, etc) in logic (the "Rules of Reason") is wrongheaded, because logic cannot unambiguously capture the complexity of these sorts of questions. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
From F. J. Sheed: "The Argument from Contingency" If we consider the universe, we find that everything in it bears this mark, that it does exist but might very well not have existed. We ourselves exist, but we would not have existed if a man and a woman had not met and mated. Thesame mark can be found upon everything. A particular valley exists because a stream of water took that way down, perhaps because the ice melted up there. If the melting ice had not been there, there would have been no valley. And so with all the things of our experience. They exist, but they would not have existed if some other thing had not been what it was or done what it did. None of these things, therefore, is the explanation of its own existence or the source of its own existence. In other words, their existence is contingent upon something else. Each thing possesses existence, and can pass on existence; but it did not originate its existence. It is essentially a receiver of existence. Now it is impossible to conceive of a universe consisting exclusively of contingent beings, that is, of beings which are only receivers of existence and not originators. The reader who is taking his role as explorer seriously might very well stop reading at this point and let his mind make for itself the effort to conceive a condition in which nothing should exist save receivers of existence. Anyone who has taken this suggestion seriously and pondered the matter for himself before reading on, will have seen that the thing is a contradiction in terms and therefore an impossibility. If nothing exists save beings that receive their existence, how does anything exist at all? Where do they receive their existence from? In such a system made up exclusively of receivers, one being may have got it from another, and that from still another, but how did existence get into the system at all? Even if you tell yourself that this system contains an infinite number of receivers of existence, you still have not accounted for existence. Even an infinite number of beings, if no one of these is the source of its own existence, will not account for existence. Thus we are driven to see that the beings of our experience, the contingent beings, could not exist at all unless there is also a being which differs from them by possessing existence in its own right. It does not have to receive existence; it simply has existence. It is not contingent: it simply is. This is the Being that we call God. ------------------------------------------------------ StephenB
RDF
You rejected my rebuttal, insisting that existence could indeed be consistently used as a predicate (or perhaps that you weren’t really using existence as a predicate – I’m not really sure what you were arguing).
Its very simple really. There is nothing illogical about using an active verb to describe a passive event. I told you this long ago, but, of course, you chose not to process it.
There is no such thing as absolute certainty – do you now concede this?
Of course not, neither do you since you are absolutely certain that we can have no certainty. We have already been there.
Libertarianism contradicts causality – do you now concede this?
I explained many times why that is not the case and I went into much detail. Just go reread my explanation.
Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe – do you now concede this?
I don't know what you mean by our conception of causality. Quantum activity certainly does not violate the notion of efficient or final cause.
And finally, the status of the other points about which we’ve argued:
You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept.
It isn't that simple. One can do much with logic alone after one has had experience with the real world.
You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. – do you now concede this?
There is nothing to concede since your formulation is not precise enough to be definitive. It depends on what you mean by empirical. I hold that all knowledge "begins" with sense experience but it doesn't end there. You will have to explain yourself. If beginning with empirical sense experience is what you mean by empirical, then I agree. If, on the other hand, you think that knowledge ends with empirical sense experience, then I disagree.
You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. – do you now concede this?
Again, I have explained this to you many times. To identify the universal, we must first experience the particular. Thus, to know that a chair is a chair requires [a] sense knowledge (empirical) and [b] intellectual formation of an idea that represents the object of sense knowledge. The formation of an idea is a rational function, not an empirical function. PLEASE STOP PRETENDING THAT I HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THESE ISSUES. OTHERWISE, I WILL START CALLING THINGS BY THEIR RIGHT NAME AGAIN. It is now your turn. [a] You claim that virtually all logicians reject the idea that a thing can “receive” existence even though the idea is centuries old. In your view, to receive existence is to “do” something. This is, of course, not the case. The receiver of existence is not doing anything at all. It is simply being brought into existence as given by the creator. To use the active verb "receive" does not, in this case, suggest action on the part of the receiver. The creator gives existence to those who receive it, just as parents give life their offspring, who also receive it. It does not violate logic to use an active verb to describe a passive event. To receive existence is not to do anything since one cannot do anything in a state of non-existence. You have failed to respond to this point. [b] You insist that virtually all logicians reject the notion that existence can be received. Is seems fair, then, to ask how you can know this. You may believe or hope that virtually all logicians reject the idea, but that is an entirely different matter. It seems evident that most logicians have never even heard of the idea unless they are invested in realist epistemology. Indeed, it seems that you had never heard of the idea until I raised it. I would, therefore ask you to provide some citations from any of these logicians to give some support to your claim. [c] You say that something coming from nothing is identical to ex-nilio creation. Obviously, this claim really does violate logic since it equates a caused universe (ex-nilio creation with an uncaused universe (something from nothing). In fact, ex-nilio creation is the very opposite of the idea that something could come from nothing. I have pointed this out to you several times. Indeed, Phinehas dramatized the point by distinguishing a bomb that was created and one that just appeared out of thin air. Yet you have provided no rational responses to any of these points. How can a caused universe be exactly the same thing as an uncaused universe? StephenB
RDF
II) My other points you have apparently conceded: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty – do you now concede this?
Help me here. When I asked you whether this statement was absolutely true or false you responded.
The above is neither absolutely true nor absolutely false of course. The point is about the limits to epistemological justification.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it appears the basis for your answer is that there are limits to epistemological justification. When I asked if you were absolutely certain that there were limits to epistemological justification you responded.
No, just certain
Now we have recycled back to where “there is no such thing as absolute certainty” even though it is neither absolutely true or false and you are not absolutely certain “just certain” that there are limits to epistemological justification. I also asked “ Are you not absolutely certain that at a minimum you are experiencing some kind of subjective state?” I know you have a lot on your plate but my enquiring mind would like to know ? Vivid vividbleau
Hi StephenB,
RDF: “I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word “create” without the theological connotations of “A Creator”. You simply did not respond to this.” SB: This is, of course, yet another misrepresentation. I pointed out on more than once that the words First Cause can be used. This notion about theological connotations are getting in the way is just another disingenuous attempt to avoid argument.
You're pretty funny - I'm constantly trying to get you to stop insulting and complaining and actually make arguments! In any event, using the term "First Cause" rather than "God" doesn't address the issue: The Law of Conservation does not refer to a "First Cause" any more than it refers to a "God". Rather, the word "create" in this scientific law has nothing to do with agency - it simply means that mass/energy cannot appear out of nothing.
To create something from nothing is to cause it to come into existence. To simply appear out of nothing is to be uncaused.
You haven't been specific, but it appears you're saying that if the mass/energy of the universe simply appeared out of nothing, it would violate conservation, but if God created mass/energy out of nothing, it would not violate conservation. Is that what you are saying? If so, I don't see why you think that. If a scientist in a laboratory created mass/energy out of nothing, it would still violate conservation, so I would say if God did it, it would violate conservation too. I think the only counter-argument you've supplied is that God waited until he had already created mass/energy before he "created the law of conservation". Besides the fact that these sorts of statements can't possibly be tested to see if they're true, we've already seen that it would require time-ordered events in a context where time does not exist, which is incoherent. I think the only consistent way to think about this is that our concepts like conservation, causality, time, and space cannot be applied to the beginning of universe, and just like multiverse theories, theories of gods who can create natural laws are not empirically testable and are just faith-based speculations. Here's what you didn't get to in my last post:
I) LNC -> LoC Regarding LNC -> LoC, you have no response to my argument, so I will consider that you have conceded: 1) You made the argument that LoC is a necessary consequence of LNC. 2) I rebutted your argument based on the fact that your argument relied on existence being a predicate 3) You rejected my rebuttal, insisting that existence could indeed be consistently used as a predicate (or perhaps that you weren’t really using existence as a predicate – I’m not really sure what you were arguing). 4) In any event, I agreed to disagree about that, and used another argument to rebut your claim that LNC -> LoC. This argument simply pointed out that LNC was fully consistent with acausality. 5) You have not yet responded to this last argument. And again, here the other points I feel are most imporant: II) My other points you have apparently conceded: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty - do you now concede this? 2) Libertarianism contradicts causality - do you now concede this? 3) Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe - do you now concede this? And finally, the status of the other points about which we’ve argued: 4) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. - do you now concede this? 6) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. - do you now concede this?
Unless you provide some sort of rebuttal to these points, it looks like you've implicitly conceded that I'm right about all of them! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Earth to Alan Fox: All of your posts are sad but telling! And what's even sadder is that you appear to be proud of that... Joe
Alan Fox:
Trying to get a straight answer to “demonstrate how to calculate CSI” notorious?
1- We told you how to calculate CSI 2- You wouldn't even have to worry about CSI if your position had supporting evidence
Sure it was embarrassing to watch the emptiness of “Intelligent Design” exposed so completely but you can’t blame Patrick May for your own shortcomings.
Patrick May ate, it, Alan. Not only that he demonstrated the emptiness of evolutionism in the process.
So you would control free thought and expression if you could.
Actually it is our opponents' lack of thought and ill-willed expression that we find bothersome. And I will oppose that until until my last breath. Joe
I notice Kairosfocus did not take the opportunity to deny that he would control free thought and expression if he could. Sad but telling! Alan Fox
PS: Here is a corrective UD post, given at the time. kairosfocus
F/N: 1] AF is directly associated with the invidious comparison game, and notice he does not distance himself to it. Free discussion does not justify uncivil conduct -- whether or not excused as "rough and tumble" as AF tried above, which Is what I have said should be ring-fenced. 2] AF manages to misrepresent what actually happened with MG, including his refusal to acknowledge -- in the teeth of manifest facts here on in context of years long standing (also cf here for a collection of links and notes on the MG gambit made as it went on as a sort of blow by blow . . . ) -- that the application of metric models to FSCO/I has long since been done. This refusal to be accountable before facts, truth, accuracy and fairness is a characteristic pattern of the sort of objectors we have been dealing with; year after year. 3] AF should reflect long and hard on what he has done and has allowed himself to be associated with, in light of the definition and discussion here on the moral costs of willfully continued misrepresentation given the facts as just linked. (And onlookers, AF and ever so many others have been corrected on this and many similar points ever so many times, but refuse to heed cogent correction. What RDF did above is sad, but no surprise.) KF kairosfocus
“Neuroscientist” sounds too fancy. She’s in fact a psychologist.
Dr. Liddle's Ph D is in psychology. She teaches on the Cognitive Neuroscience and Neuropsychology module for the third year in the Psychiatry division at Nottingham University. She has some published papers and her research interests are listed as "translational mental health, in particular ADHD and schizophrenia, as well as neuroimaging." Referring to Dr Liddle as a neuroscientist seems reasonable. Alan Fox
Recent onlookers should note that it is commonplace for certain notorious objectors to put on a web persona and come here to try to raise yet another cycle of typically fallacious objections, the Mathgrrl borrowed persona used by a certain Mr May being the most notorious.
Oh please! Trying to get a straight answer to "demonstrate how to calculate CSI" notorious? Don't make me laugh. Sure it was embarrassing to watch the emptiness of "Intelligent Design" exposed so completely but you can't blame Patrick May for your own shortcomings. Alan Fox
Cyber fever swamps should be ring fenced and avoided by decent people.
So you would control free thought and expression if you could. I will oppose you and your ilk in this with my last breath. Though I should add that I defend your right to free thought and expression, none the less. PS, you appear to have suffered a major relapse. Please do better! Alan Fox
RD
"I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word “create” without the theological connotations of “A Creator”. You simply did not respond to this."
This is, of course, yet another misrepresentation. I pointed out on more than once that the words First Cause can be used. This notion about theological connotations are getting in the way is just another disingenuous attempt to avoid argument.
You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“.
This is, of course, beyond ridiculous. To create something from nothing is to cause it to come into existence. To simply appear out of nothing is to be uncaused.
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok?
It should be obvious that a law that doesn't exist cannot be violated. Thus, it is impossible to violate a law in the act of creating it.
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
This point has been refuted several times by several people. kairofocus writes: "In response to this, it was pointed out, several times, from several directions by various people, that (a) mass/energy conservation has to do with the typical state of our cosmos as a going concern, not as to its origins as a system including its laws, and (b) creation ex nihilo means something specific in context, that the cosmos we see was not created by re-arranging primoridal matter. Nor, (c) does it mean appearing out of nothing, by rather out of the volitional act of God as Creator" RDF ignores response and continues on with his talking points as if no refutation had taken place. And the beat goes on. StephenB
F/N:
the “rough and tumble” of open fora
As one who has felt the force of nasty personal attacks, vulgarities, outing, cyberstalking, threats against uninvolved family etc that are being covered over with these smooth words, I have very little sympathy for those who are associated with such despicable nihilist Alinskyite tactics. As of now, TSZ's leadership -- and this is the relatively better one of the penumbra of hostile sites that try to feed off UD -- have yet to clean up on a false insinuation that I am a Nazi by invidious association. I actually think this one is actionable in UK law. And, AF, with RTH and OM are directly implicated in the case in view. The blithe pretence on EL's part -- as blog owner -- that there is nothing there, is itself grounds for continued banning here, on my view. Though, I of course have no control on such. In fact the ownership here -- predictably, you would not learn this from the likes of AF . . . -- has openly invited EL to return if she wishes. Cyber fever swamps should be ring fenced and avoided by decent people. KF kairosfocus
Alan Fox:
I think he might find the “rough and tumble” of open fora a bit of a shock.
Evos definitely find open fora a bit of a shock. If they cannot control the discussion they lose. It's as simple as that. And tehy need to control the discussion because they sure as heck cannot provide positive evidence for teh claims of their position. Heck most of them just equivocate like cowards. And Lizzie's "more relaxed discussion", that means there will be no evidence for evolutionism and only attacks on ID. Ya see evos get nervous when they actually have to support their position. And Lizzie can't have that on her blog. Joe
F/N: Observe, no serious engagement on substance by objectors from the usual venues. In particular, the Josiah Royce point, Error exists -- which I assure you is very hard to handle for those who want to dismiss that some cases of knowledge are certain beyond reasonable dispute, in this case to undeniability -- is treated as if it is not there. Recent onlookers should note that it is commonplace for certain notorious objectors to put on a web persona and come here to try to raise yet another cycle of typically fallacious objections, the Mathgrrl borrowed persona used by a certain Mr May being the most notorious. And, that one ran very much like the above, though on a different line of objections. Remember, onlookers:
1 --> once there are distinct things in the world (W), and we recognise any such, A, we have a partition W = { A | NOT-A } and 2 --> the LOI, LNC and LEM follow as directly associated corollaries of that. Similarly, 3 --> once we have A, we may follow Schopenhauer and ask and confidently seek to answer why . . the principle of sufficient reason. 4 --> This leads to the contrast possible/impossible being (a case where LNC is already embedded), and contingent/necessary being in the a case where there is or is not dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors, with, 5 --> e.g. cf. the heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction are each necessary and jointly sufficient for a fire. (Just check out a match.) 6 --> A possible, contingent being that is actualised, is caused and may be described as an effect. Where also, 7 --> we may see from the match that this is a real phenomenon, especially the pivotal type of causal factor, an enabling on/off necessary factor. 8 --> By contrast a necessary being would have no such dependence and a serious candidate would be either impossible or actual. 9 --> Impossibility would be manifested in a contradiction in attributes, similar to those for a square circle. 10 --> The phenomenon of digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information, dFSCI -- manifest in text such as comments in this thread, and also in DNA, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits -- allows us to see something that is well beyond the credible capacity of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of our observed solar system or cosmos, so that it highlights the significance of intelligent designers who are purposeful, skilled and capable of making real decisions, not merely being programmed by blind chance and necessity. 11 --> That is, there is empirical measurably observable reason to accept on empirical evidence that there are real agents with ability to make free, responsible purposeful choices. (Yet another case of the significance of the design inference reasoning process.) 12 --> Where also the commonly seen the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism leads to the self-referential incoherence of mind on such premises, ending in self-refutation. A classic example of this point being Haldane's well known comment:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
KF kairosfocus
@AF:
set up by Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, a neuroscientist
"Neuroscientist" sounds too fancy. She's in fact a psychologist. JWTruthInLove
Hi vividbleau,
Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification?
No, just certain.
Finally what is TSZ KF made reference to regarding you and something about you being a champion?
I have no clue why KF would call me a champion, but then I again I understand virtually nothing he says.
Do you post over there wherever there is and could that be IYO part of a back story that would account for some of the bad blood between you and the regulars here? Just curious.
No, I don't post there. I would say the "bad blood" you sense here derives from the fact that I challenge their most deeply held beliefs. I'm actually not an atheist nor a materialist nor a Darwinist, but my views are still very much odds with the folks here. Cheers, RDFi RDFish
Websie? Web site! Alan Fox
Finally what is TSZ
It is a websie based on a Wordpress template set up by Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, a neuroscientist, whho used to contribute regularly here. As topics scroll off very quickly and the moderation here is, shall we say, special, she created (see what I did there, Phineas?) an alternative venue for more relaxed discussion. She is currently banned from commenting here as are a number (a quite large number ;) ) of commenters. You would be very welcome there (as would StephenB). The Skeptical Zone Alan Fox
I suppose Descarte’s cogito is the best attempt to find something one can be absolutely certain of – that one experiences subjective states. Is that knowledge? Only to the extent that the referent can be characterized, and our apprehension of any particular aspect of our conscious experience (or memory thereof!) may be unreliable
l Are you not absolutely certain that at a minimm you are experiencing some kind of sujective state? As to my other question which maybe you are going to address in a seperate post but just in case I will ask it again here. Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification? Finally what is TSZ KF made reference to regarding you and something about you being a champion? Do you post over there wherever there is and could that be IYO part of a back story that would account for some of the bad blood between you and the regulars here? Just curious. Vivid vividbleau
I have taken time to go over this with RDF...
I have actually noticed some improvement in your attempts at communication, recently. Witness I actually read the comment from which I extracted the quote.. When you can manage to consider the possibility that people whose views differ widely from yours nevertheless hold those views sincerely and honestly, you will have made more progress. Alan Fox
Death and taxes! They're certain. ...I'll get me coat! Alan Fox
Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of.
As a long-time lurker, 8 years or so, I can say that Stephen's debating style and attitude to those who take the trouble to argue with him by commenting here is consistently as demonstrated in this thread. I haven't noticed Stephen having much of an internet life beyond the cloistered walls of Uncommon Descent. I think he might find the "rough and tumble" of open fora a bit of a shock. Alan Fox
Hi vividbleau,
Why are you afraid I am missing something after all I am the one who asked if I was, so I certainly was not afraid if I was missing something.
Perhaps you're being funny? The phrase "I am afraid that..." is merely a polite idiom, of course. It doesn't actually mean that I was experiencing fear :-)
I do disagree with you I am absolutely certain that something is happening. That something, for lack of a better term exists or at least giving me the illusion that this is so.
I suppose Descarte's cogito is the best attempt to find something one can be absolutely certain of - that one experiences subjective states. Is that knowledge? Only to the extent that the referent can be characterized, and our apprehension of any particular aspect of our conscious experience (or memory thereof!) may be unreliable. But to doubt like this is hyper-skepticsm of the first order, which is boring and disingenuous. As I've written many, many, many times here, our failure to "solve" epistemology does not prevent us from being very, very certain of all sorts of things. Just because knowledge can't be justified without limit does not mean that knowledge is not possible.
I probably should not have used the word bother, perplexed is better. Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of.
Actually I don't have a thing against him. You've probably noticed that every so often he just gets really angry and starts with the name-calling and insults, but as soon as he calms down and gets back to the debate I immediately do the same. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
PPS: I have taken time to go over this with RDF, as an example for future reference. Let the denizens of TSZ and other similar sites realise this, that if this is the standard of their champions -- and the above is sadly typical on years of observation, then it says a lot about the underlying fallacious nature of their worldview level case. It also shows where refusal to be guided by the first principles of right reason leads. As a wise king once warned, the laughter of a fool is as the crackling of thorns under a pot, which of course ends in ashes and ruin for the thorns. kairosfocus
PS: And, to set things in a more reasonable order, from worldviews foundations on up, I suggest pausing for a few minutes and reading here on. (This is of course the precise linked unpretentious 101 level worldviews analysis passage that RDF has spent weeks refusing to engage by reading and reflecting on, as can be seen from the outset of this extremely long discussion. Read it, then ponder why someone like RDF would refuse to do so while indulging the sort of tactics that were yet again exposed just above. Then, please, don't feed the troll on the attention he craves. Simply -- and briefly -- point out (give links or at least references to comment numbers) that he is willfully ignoring cogent correction and is insistently perpetuating corrected error, reflecting to his discredit. After a few loops of that, most trolls will realise the game is over and quit. If there is a refusal to quit, that simply shows the sustained deep rooted nature of the problem.) kairosfocus
F/N: Re another sadly illustrative sample from RDF. Note, first, 574:
I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word “create” without the theological connotations of “A Creator”. You simply did not respond to this.
Now, RDF, 525:
You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“. Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok? Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
In response to this, it was pointed out, several times, from several directions by various people, that (a) mass/energy conservation has to do with the typical state of our cosmos as a going concern, not as to its origins as a system including its laws, and (b) creation ex nihilo means something specific in context, that the cosmos we see was not created by re-arranging primoridal matter. Nor, (c) does it mean appearing out of nothing, by rather out of the volitional act of God as Creator. It was further pointed out that to make an attempted inductive generalisation that carries the law of conservation of mass and energy into the creation of the cosmos, is like the error of Lord Russell's inductive turkey. That unfortunately naive bird made the inference on long experience that it was an inevitable order of the world that every morning at 9:00 sharp he would be fed by the Kitchen door. Then, one fine morning, it was Christmas Eve. In short, a sustained pattern is consistent with design, and such a pattern may have exceptions for excellent reason not obvious from naively extrapolating the going concern status of events. (Fundamentally this is one of the errors commonly made regarding the possibility of the miraculous, rooted in naive scientism. Closer inspection will show that for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the usual course of events, there has to be a usual course; in a chaos where anything goes for any or no reason, there is no reliable order that allows an exception to stand forth as a sign. To naively suggest that such a usual course can only be exception-less is tantamount to a case of faulty universal generalisation. We are only warranted to decide on inductive inference on experience that such and so is the usual course of events, which appears highly reliable. Unless one has separate, good and sufficient reason to infer that there is no possibility of significant exceptions, the regular course is no proper appeal against such. Some day, it may be Christmas Eve. And of course, the truth is, there is no such good and separate evidence, and scientism fails.) In short, in his attempts to undermine causality and its status as being inextricably linked to possibility of being (which requires that necessary attributes of an entity are mutually consistent, as opposed to those of an impossible object such as a square circle), he has suggested that creation ex nihilo is, save theological suggestions, not discernible from appearing without cause. That is a gross misrepresentation, one corrected and one insistently repeated like a drumbeat, with confusing factors cleverly tossed in to throw the naive onlooker off the trail of truth. At no point was RDF found acknowledging that creation without prior material substance, of a world by an intelligent Creator [and BTW, there is significant evidence of fine tuning of the cosmos from basic laws and parameters on up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life, giving credence to design . . . ] was shown to be significantly distinct from a-causal appearance out of non-being, for no reason. Shown, but willfully ignored with accompanying drumbeat repetition of the false and confuted assertion as though it stands unexposed as fallacious. Similarly, after I just took time to lay out at length in 546 above a direct confutation of the assertion "There is no such thing as absolute certainty," . . . based on Josiah Royce's undeniably true claim "Error exists" -- E, symbolically -- which is a case of certain knowledge, for even to try to suggest a denial as a possibility leads straight to a conjunction (E and NOT-E) that must be false, demonstrating the claim E to be true, lo and behold in just above, RDF presents the same again in 572, as though it had not been decisively answered. Describing: willful ignoring of correction and willfully continued misrepresentation in the teeth of duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. Which has a certain definition showing it to be a manifestation of a little word beginning with L, cf. here. Sorry to be so sharp, but it is time to say, this is not a game, this is not something where one can play around and see who is going to fall for the trick, it is not a situation where our eduction system equips people to be logically and epistemologically sharp, especially on worldviews foundational matters. Someone with education and knowledge, has a duty of care in such a situation in our culture, to set things to right, instead of taking advantage of the failings of our formal and informal education systems. Let us never ever forget that debate is that wicked art that sets out to make the worse appear to be the better case and the reverse, to make the better seem the worse,; being aided to that end by rhetoric, the dark art of persuasion, not warrant. (This is why, I find our civilisation's obsession with "debate" and clever "public speaking" a telling, and sad symptom. Well did the apostle warn that there would come a perilous time when many would refuse to put up with sound instruction, but would instead flock to those who would tickle their itching ears with what they want to hear. Instead, we need to shift to informed dialogue towards the truth and the right, in light of acknowledged duties of care to truth, soundness, cogency, accuracy and fairness.) And BTW, Vivid's point above is also dead on, the assertion that there is no absolute certainty is an absolute claim. It refutes itself, immediately. This can be seen by asking in reply: "are you ABSOLUTELY sure of that?" So, though I do think SB's language should be more temperate and restrained [not least it just creates an opportunity for more obfuscation and Alinskyite gloating . . . ] it seems to me that we are here seeing a willful rhetorical manipulation by RDF, maintained for weeks in the teeth of patent duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. This performance is too smooth to be naive confusion or blind parrotting of talking points. This is patently calculated. Maybe, it is only intended as the equivalent of a practical joke for intellectual entertainment of some cynical sort, but in any case the utter irresponsibility and disrespect involved do not paint a pretty picture of the sort of mindset that produces such. And when I think about the issue of the misleading of the naive onlooker . . . At this point, I think the truth is that we need to recognise that we should resurrect the right of collective outrage in the teeth of the dark triad manifesting a long train of usurpations and manipulative abuses sustained in the teeth of correction. We have so come to worship "cool" in our time that we fail to notice that we are not able to say enough is enough in the teeth of the most clever manipulative bewitchment rhetoric tactics, and to support those who identify, correct and expose the same, then rebuke and shun those who insistently indulge in willful manipulation. For those with a sufficiently benumbed conscience -- in our day, their name is Legion -- evident failure of manipulation leading to exposure and loss of influence and credibility is almost the only thing that will restrain some of the more clever and ruthless practitioners of Alinskyite tactics. In short, there is something to be said for the old English practice of "sending to Coventry," for the willfully, insistently manipulative. I trust that at this point, no-one who has even one eye open, will continue to believe the credibility of RDF's confident manner assertions of long since patiently refuted but regularly recirculated twisty talking points and bald assertions. I will continue to monitor the thread, and will as necessary give "slice of the cake" samples of the manipulation by way of exposure, but RDF has long since been exposed on his main claims so there is no reason to try to further repeat such point by point in extenso. Just scroll up and take time to read for substance. KF kairosfocus
I’m afraid you’re missing something. The above is neither absolutely true nor absolutely false of course. The point is about the limits to epistemological justification.
Why are you afraid I am missing something after all I am the one who asked if I was, so I certainly was not afraid if I was missing something. Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification? I do disagree with you I am absolutely certain that something is happening. That something, for lack of a better term exists or at least giving me the illusion that this is so.
I have never debated Stephen, no. Why would that be bothering you?
I probably should not have used the word bother, perplexed is better. Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of. Vivid vividbleau
Hi vividbleau,
RFD: There is no such thing as absolute certainty VB: The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something?
I'm afraid you're missing something. The above is neither absolutely true nor absolutely false of course. The point is about the limits to epistemological justification.
One other thing that has been bothering me and if you dont want to answer thats ok. But do you and Stephen have a history that precedes this thread? Just curious. I guess Stephen can answer that as well I suppose.
I have never debated Stephen, no. Why would that be bothering you? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
@kairosfocus:
Onlookers: At this point, this is almost a parody.
This onlooker is not impressed with StephenB's personal attacks. StephenB must reflect on his wrongdoings and do better next time. JWTruthInLove
There is no such thing as absolute certainty
The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something? One other thing that has been bothering me and if you dont want to answer thats ok. But do you and Stephen have a history that precedes this thread? Just curious. I guess Stephen can answer that as well I suppose. Vivid vividbleau
RFD
There is no such thing as absolute certainty</blockquote? The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something? Vivid
vividbleau
Hi StephenB,
RDF: You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering “prior to” the existence of time itself. SB: This is, of course, untrue. I have never said anything like that or even close to it. He is just making that up.
OK! Let's get to the bottom of this, shall we? Here is why I think that you did indeed argue this:
SB @474: There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it?
As I explained to you before (see @475) the word "until" is a temporal modifier - the word has no meaning except with reference to a point in time. Thus you are saying that God "made" the law of conservation at some point in time before the beginning of the universe. Since there was no time "before" the beginning of the universe, your conception of God creating this law in time is incoherent. Now, if you'd like to argue this point some more that would be great - but obviously your accusation that I'm "just making it up" is just truculence on your part.
RDF:You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. SB: This is untrue. I explained that LNC and LoC are inextricably tied together and that the LoC is a necessary consequence the LNC. (“entail” means “to involve something as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence”).
So let's get to the bottom of this one too. Here's how the discussion went: 1) You made the argument that LoC is a necessary consequence of LNC. 2) I rebutted your argument based on the fact that your argument relied on existence being a predicate 3) You rejected my rebuttal, insisting that existence could indeed be consistently used as a predicate (or perhaps that you weren't really using existence as a predicate - I'm not really sure what you were arguing). 4) In any event, I agreed to disagree about that, and used another argument to rebut your claim that LNC -> LoC. This argument simply pointed out that LNC was fully consistent with acausality. 5) You have not yet responded to this last argument.
Keep in mind this is all coming from the same person who said that getting something from nothing (a causeless universe) is exactly the same thing as saying “ex-nilio creation. (a universe caused by a creator).
Here, I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word "create" without the theological connotations of "A Creator". You simply did not respond to this. Well, I do appreciate you trying to set the record straight here. I still think your idea that God created the Law of Conservation at some point in time is incoherent, and that you have yet to respond to my argument that physical causality is not entailed by logic. And again, here the other points I feel are most imporant: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty 2) Libertarianism contradicts causality 3) Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe And finally, the status of the other points about which we've argued: 4) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. 6) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD
Maybe instead of lashing out like that, you should just study my arguments so next time you’ll do better!
It is the losing side that feels the need to misrepresent the comments of others. Here are three quick examples: RD
You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering “prior to” the existence of time itself.
This is, of course, untrue. I have never said anything like that or even close to it. He is just making that up.
You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all.
This is untrue. I explained that LNC and LoC are inextricably tied together and that the LoC is a necessary consequence the LNC. (“entail” means “to involve something as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence”). Kairosfocus made the same point formally many times. RDF refused to address it because he “didn’t like KF’s writing style.”
You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians)
This is another made up story. When all else fails, he tries the literature bluff. No reputable logician would dare say that receiving existence is a logical contradiction any more than giving existence is a logical contradiction. Keep in mind this is all coming from the same person who said that getting something from nothing (a causeless universe) is exactly the same thing as saying “ex-nilio creation. (a universe caused by a creator). Oh well, the reader gets the drift I am sure. StephenB
Hi StephenB, You shouldn't take this so hard, really. I don't think you've thought these arguments through very well, and I've spent a great deal of time thinking about them. Maybe instead of lashing out like that, you should just study my arguments so next time you'll do better! Anyway, it looks like you're not even trying anymore, so let's call it quits. I'd say the most important points I argued successfully were these: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty 2) Physical causality is not entailed by logic 3) Libertarianism contradicts causality 4) Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe Thanks again, and better luck next time ;-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD:
Instead of name-calling, why not look at the summary of our differences and come up with a great, air-tight rebuttal of what I’ve said?
I don't think you are getting it. If I respond to your latest round of lies, it will generate yet another round of lies. I don't think it is a productive use of my time to interact with a liar. Is that plain enough? StephenB
Onlookers: At this point, this is almost a parody. RDF plainly imagines that by ignoring accessible corrective evidence and using talking point games he can score rhetorical points. The sad thing is, if he is doing this while we are here, correcting him every step of the way, what is he telling those naive enough to grant him credibility elsewhere under his real name or another alias? KF kairosfocus
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: 1) The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy is a cornerstone of physics, never violated in the totality of our experience 2) Nobody knows how the mass/energy of our universe came to exist; there is simply no theory that accounts for it 3) Logically, either mass/energy is eternal or had a beginning. 4) If it had a beginning, then somehow the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy must have been violated at some point. (Another way to say the same would be to say that the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy didn’t apply at some point). PHINEHAS: I understand what you are saying here. I think that part of the problem stems from going from an empirical law based on observation, as you do in your fist point, and then trying to turn it into a logical necessity, as you seem to imply in your fourth point. Empirically, the Law of Conservation is uncontroversial, but logically, mass and energy are the effect of some cause. I wouldn’t say that this violates the Law of Conservation so much as it highlights the limits of what the law is intended to communicate.
I think we only disagree about one thing, which is "logically, mass/energy are the effect of some cause". I do not see causation as a logical relation; I see it is a physical relation that may or may not invariably hold. Causation does seem to operate differently in quantum contexts, for example, and we just have no idea at all how mass/energy in the universe came to exist.
RDF: So let’s try that again: What does “Every effect has a cause” mean? I believe it may mean one of two things: 1) This is a tautology, true by virtue of the definitions of the words “cause” and “effect”. That is, the word “cause” means “something that results in an effect” and the word “effect” means “something that happens as a result of some cause”. 2) This is a statement about the way the universe works, and it is (almost) tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true. (The “almost” is to take into consideration stochastic causation, which I don’t think is relevant to our discussion). It simply means that nothing happens which is not caused by something else. PHINEHAS: And here we go again. You’ve suddenly changed what you were saying. You’ve moved from: …nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause… To: …tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true… I’m not even sure what “physical determinism” means here, so I have no idea what I think about truth claims regarding it.
I think this really is pretty clear; I think I'm using the term the way most people do: Physical determinism means that everything that happens in the universe is fully determined by antecedent physical cause, so the entire destiny of the universe was set at the instant of the Big Bang. (I did insert a caveat to take stochastic causes - as in QM - into account).
Having said that, it seems to me that neither statement follows logically from, “Every effect has a cause.” You would need at least one more premise of the form, “Every event is an effect,” or “Every physical/material state is an effect,” to reach what appears to be your conclusions.
I'm not "reaching a conclusion"; I'm trying to pin down what you mean when you say "Every effect has a cause". We're just talking past each other - I'm not sure we really disagree. Another way to think about the two meanings are that (1) is analytic (a statement about word definitions) and (2) is synthetic (a statement about how the universe works).
So, again, (2) is clearly a non sequitor in my view.
I'm not drawing any conclusions - I'm just trying to state what "Every effect has a cause" can be taken to mean, and I'm saying it can mean two different things. First, it can just be true by definition, and second, it can be saying that nothing ever happens without a cause.
I can see how you might think (per 1) that, “Every effect has a cause,” can be dismissed as a mere tautology, but I am not sure that is the case.
I'm not dimissing it - I'm just saying that is one way you could interpret the sentence. In fact, some Christian philosophers start off by declaring that this statement is tautological, and then proceed to talk about uncaused causes that are not effects (that is, things that cause other things but themselves are not caused). So after defining "cause" and "effect" in terms of each other, they say "Every effect has a cause" and also "Not everything that happens is an effect".
It is true that this important relationship is embedded in the very definitions of the words themselves, but in my view, that doesn’t detract from the importance of recognizing the relationship as a crucial part of reality, exactly as the Law of Causality does.
Exactly so! In order to discuss this important issue, we simply need to get our terms straight, which is why I asked you in what sense you meant the statement "Every effect has a cause"! I wasn't arguing anything or reaching any conclusions, I was simply asking you which way you meant that statement to be interpreted!
For me, this would be like saying that 1 + 1 = 2 (and, in fact, all of mathematics) doesn’t say anything important because the truth of the statement is embedded in the definition of 1 and 2.
Once we get our definitions clear, we can then compare what we think about causality in the universe. In my view, whether or not the universe is causally closed is unknown (in other words, we don't know if physical determinism is true or not). Also I believe we can't apply the concept of causality outside of spacetime. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB, Instead of name-calling, why not look at the summary of our differences and come up with a great, air-tight rebuttal of what I've said? That's the way to show everyone you've won - by actually winning! The thing is, anyone who wants to know the truth about what was said here need only read the page - you can't change the record. I've summarized our arguments faithfully and responded to all your points, but now you're just hurling insults and calling me names and not even trying to debate the points. Even SCordova thought you were wrong here, Vividbleau tended to agree with me, and 5for found my arguments convincing (and admonished you about your behavior). Phinehas is still arguing in good faith. You, on the other hand, are throwing a tantrum because you couldn't respond to my arguments. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
StephenB@ 563: "...a defeated troll degrade himself". Really? You feel so angry about losing a debate that you have to resort to that? Do you agree that ad hominem is a fallacy and it is used when people have no counter arguments? You whole 563 is delusional. If you believe what you are writing then your powers of self-deception are truly impressive. 5for
So let’s try that again: What does “Every effect has a cause” mean? I believe it may mean one of two things: 1) This is a tautology, true by virtue of the definitions of the words “cause” and “effect”. That is, the word “cause” means “something that results in an effect” and the word “effect” means “something that happens as a result of some cause”. 2) This is a statement about the way the universe works, and it is (almost) tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true. (The “almost” is to take into consideration stochastic causation, which I don’t think is relevant to our discussion). It simply means that nothing happens which is not caused by something else.
And here we go again. You've suddenly changed what you were saying. You've moved from:
...nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause...
To:
...tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true...
I'm not even sure what "physical determinism" means here, so I have no idea what I think about truth claims regarding it. Having said that, it seems to me that neither statement follows logically from, "Every effect has a cause." You would need at least one more premise of the form, "Every event is an effect," or "Every physical/material state is an effect," to reach what appears to be your conclusions. So, again, (2) is clearly a non sequitor in my view. I can see how you might think (per 1) that, "Every effect has a cause," can be dismissed as a mere tautology, but I am not sure that is the case. Describing the relationship between effect and cause does say something very important about the way the universe works. It is true that this important relationship is embedded in the very definitions of the words themselves, but in my view, that doesn't detract from the importance of recognizing the relationship as a crucial part of reality, exactly as the Law of Causality does. For me, this would be like saying that 1 + 1 = 2 (and, in fact, all of mathematics) doesn't say anything important because the truth of the statement is embedded in the definition of 1 and 2. Phinehas
RDF: Let's take just one slice of the cake up again, as it has in it all the ingredients:
You believe that [--> left out: in certain but not all cases, as has been SHOWN] knowledge can be 100% absolutely certain; I (along with virtually all epistemologists, including Christian ones) believe there are limits to epistemological justification [--> not in dispute, but presented as if we dispute this; the real issue not the strawman is, where the limits lie and on what sort of cases, such as -- scientific knowledge being provisional . . . ], including that we cannot guarantee the reliability of our own minds [--> in all cases, which is not the same as that our minds are dubious in all cases].
Let me cite (again) from the section on first principles of right reason you still refuse to read, for a case in point, which shows how shamelessly irresponsible, misleading and at minimum deceptive by willful neglect of duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness the above "summary" point 7 is:
. . . consider Josiah Royce's subtle but simple claim: error exists. To try to deny it only ends up giving an instance of its truth; it is undeniably true. Let's zoom in a bit (using mostly glorified common sense "deduction" and a light dusting of symbols), as this will help us understand the roots of reasoning and reasonableness. As we have stressed, this is back to roots, back to sources, back to foundations. So, in steps of thought: 1: Let us take up, Royce’s Error exists, and symbolise it: E. (Where the denial would be NOT-E, ~E. Error does not exist, in plain English.) 2: Attempt a conjunction: { E AND ~E } 3: We have here mutually exclusive, opposed and exhaustive claims that address the real world joined together in a way that tries to say both are so. 4: Common sense, based on wide experience and our sense of how things are and can or cannot be -- to be further analysed below, yielding three key first principles of right reason -- tells us that, instead:
(a) this conjunction { E AND ~E } must be false (so that the CONJUNCTION is a definite case of an error), and that (b) its falsity being relevant to one of the claims, (c) we may readily identify that the false one is ~E. Which means: _________________________________ (d) E is true and is undeniably true. (On pain of a breach of common sense.)
5: So, E is true, is known to be true once we understand it and is undeniably true on pain of patent -- obvious, hard to deny -- self contradiction. 6: It is therefore self evident. 7: It is warranted as reliably true, indeed to demonstrative certainty. 8: Where, E refers to the real world of things as such. 9: It is a case of absolute, objective, certainly known truth; a case of certain knowledge. "Justified, true belief," nothing less. 10: It is also a matter of widely observed fact -- starting with our first school exercises with sums and visions of red X's -- confirming the accuracy of a particular consensus of experience. 11: So, here we have a certainly known case of truth existing as that which accurately refers to reality. 12: Also, a case of knowledge existing as warranted, credibly true beliefs, in this case to certainty. 13: Our ability to access truth and knowledge about the real, extra-mental world by experience, reasoning and observation is confirmed in at least one pivotal case. 14: Contemporary worldviews — their name is Legion — that would deny, deride or dismiss such [including the point that there are such things as self evident truths that relate to the real world], are thence shown to be factually inadequate and incoherent. They are unable to explain reality. 15: Such worldviews are, as a bloc, falsified by this one key point. They are unreasonable. 16: Of course the truth in question is particularly humbling and a warning on the limits of knowledge and the gap between belief and truth or even ability to formulate a logical assertion and truth. 17: So, we need to be humble, and — contrary to assertions about how insisting on objectivity manifests "arrogance" and potentially oppressive "intolerance" – the principles of right reason (implicit in the above, to be drawn out below) allow us to humbly, honestly test our views so that we can identify when we have gone off the rails and to in at least some cases confirm when our confidence is well grounded. So -- while we can be mistaken about it -- truth exists and we can in some cases confidently know it on pain of absurdity if we try to deny it. It is warranted and credibly true that error exists. Truth therefore exists, and knowledge -- i.e. the set of warranted, credibly true [and reliable] claims -- also exists. (As noted already, but it bears repeating as it is hard for some to accept: this cuts a wide swath across many commonly encountered worldview ideas of our time; such as, the idea that there is no truth beyond what seems true to you or me, or that we cannot know the truth on important matters beyond conflicting opinions.)
Clear enough? (And, dear onlooker, this is all too sadly typical behaviour of the better class of objectors we get around UD, the ones who do not slip into blatant vulgarities, overt and blatant personal attacks, outing and threats against uninvolved family members, attempts to do economic or reputational damage, etc.) KF kairosfocus
1) The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy is a cornerstone of physics, never violated in the totality of our experience 2) Nobody knows how the mass/energy of our universe came to exist; there is simply no theory that accounts for it 3) Logically, either mass/energy is eternal or had a beginning. 4) If it had a beginning, then somehow the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy must have been violated at some point. (Another way to say the same would be to say that the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy didn’t apply at some point).
I understand what you are saying here. I think that part of the problem stems from going from an empirical law based on observation, as you do in your fist point, and then trying to turn it into a logical necessity, as you seem to imply in your fourth point. Empirically, the Law of Conservation is uncontroversial, but logically, mass and energy are the effect of some cause. I wouldn't say that this violates the Law of Conservation so much as it highlights the limits of what the law is intended to communicate. Phinehas
RD
Perhaps you’ve given up? If so, thanks – it’s been really fun!
There you go again. I have refuted you at every turn. You simply ignore the refutations and continue on with your refuted talking points. As kairosfocus, William J. Murray, and I have explicitly pointed out and documented, you simply do not argue in good faith. vividbleau and Phinehas recently discovered the same thing and pointed it out to you in terms more polite than you deserve. Indeed, your above summary is filled with shameless misrepresentations, sloppy mischaracterizations, and outright lies. Clearly, if you feel the need to resort to such desperate measures, you have lost. When these deceptive tactics are brought to your attention, you characterize that revelation as an ad-hominem argument. Why you think such a strategy would be successful is a mystery to me. I agree that it has been fun. It is entertaining to watch a defeated troll degrade himself by resorting to deception as a means for avoiding the intellectual task of arguing on the merits. StephenB
Hi StephenB, Well, after a little diversion over the semantics of the word "create", we're back to our summary. You avoided my argument that LNC does not entail causality. Anyway, I'm happy to let any fair reader see your position on all of our debate points and conclude that I'm right on every one of them: Here is what we agreed on from the start: 1) We agree that the Rules of Reason are self-evidently true (even though you refuse for some bizarre reason to allow me to hold this position) Here is what we now agree on: 2) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 3) The Law of Conservation doesn’t apply to the beginning of the universe. If it did, it would obviously be violated by ex nihilo creation. Here is what we disagree on: 4) You say that the Law of Causality does apply to the beginning of the universe. I say that we have no way of understanding what happens outside of spacetime, and none of our concepts apply in a context where neither space nor time exists. You reject that causes must precede effects in cause-effect relationships, and somehow know that God wouldn’t want to withhold the Law of Causality the way He did with the Law of Conservation. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. 6) You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians). 7) You believe that knowledge can be 100% absolutely certain; I (along with virtually all epistemologists, including Christian ones) believe there are limits to epistemological justification, including that we cannot guarantee the reliability of our own minds. And here are the points that you’ve simply refused to respond to: 8) You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering “prior to” the existence of time itself. 9) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. 10) You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. So that’s three points we agree on, four that we disagree on (and you’re wrong about), and three you’ve failed to respond to enirely (you’re wrong about those too). Perhaps you’ve given up? If so, thanks – it’s been really fun! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
pps: I could keep on going on and on, but let this be the slice of the cake that has in it the key ingredients. kairosfocus
PS: There is also another misconception, on "nothing happens which is not caused by something else." That easily leads to the inference everything is caused by something else, but that is not the case. The truth in 2 + 3 = 5 had no beginning, and cannot cease to be. That is, I point out that there is a class of necessary beings, which have no cause. Serious candidates to be such, are either impossible (per self contradictory necessary attributes such as a square circle or the like) or actual. If actual they have no beginning, no end, are not contingent on any other thing, etc. God, of course is the most famous such serious candidate, and propositions like 2 + 3 = 5 are often held to be eternally contemplated by God. kairosfocus
F/N 2: now, look at the second horn of the proposed dilemma:
2) This is a statement about the way the universe works, and it is (almost) tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true. (The “almost” is to take into consideration stochastic causation, which I don’t think is relevant to our discussion). It simply means that nothing happens which is not caused by something else.
The highlighted clip of course -- discounting the weasel word escape word -- reveals the strawman caricature. There is a world of difference between, things are caused and appear as effects, and materialistic determinism up to some stochastic distributions is true. In short, there is a third, significant option being suppressed by trying to force fit it into either of two unacceptable assertions. Namely, that we are self-moved, actuating causes capable of freely and responsible acting into the world, up to certain limits in particular cases. We are selves and can act as causes by exercise of our volition -- having minds of our own, and in turn we are caused by the root of being, God. That is, there is room for us to look at a matter and reason about it then reflect on the light of conscience guided by principles of moral government, and decide, even against programing and conditioning. That is the context in which, if we react to light of truth, reason and principle-guided conscience, by fleeing such and hiding in darkness, there is no excuse. We are just as bound by the truth and the right we SHOULD acknowledge as by what we do acknowledge -- especially by pointing to the other party and objecting to their behaviour. One does not dispose of the issue of freedom and responsibility so easily as by posing a strawman tactic dilemma. KF kairosfocus
F/N: RDF @ 554:
a tautology, true by virtue of the definitions of the words “cause” and “effect”. That is, the word “cause” means “something that results in an effect” and the word “effect” means “something that happens as a result of some cause”.
This is of course yet another example of strawman tactics. Here rooted in an unwarranted circular argument accusation, based on ignoring what has been put on the table, by way of explaining from the issue of recognisably distinct things in the world, and the consequent principle of sufficient reason forward and the development of an understanding of cause based on say analysing a burning match. Cause and effect are labels, but labels for real enough, observable phenomena, as accessible as a box of matches. Take one match out. Strike it, watch it burn about half way. Tilt the head up so the fire tries to burn back on the already burned part, it goes out. if you sweep it int eh air instead of on the strike strip, no flame. If you tried to strike under water, no sustained fire. Why is that? The effect of enabling on/off causal factors, as noted. Understand, that is foundational to a rational approach to the empirical world, and in particular it is the basis for science. Never let the dismissal that such is a tautology mislead you to imagine this is just a circle of argument that is dubious. A concrete counter example -- the half-burned match -- suffices to show that the implied circularity is false. Blatantly so on massive easily accessible experience. This, sirs, is an example of sophistry exposed. And, as was ALREADY corrected but willfully ignored. Let me therefore repeat a comment that first appeared at 512 above and was already repeated overnight, at was it 541, which RDF has studiously ignored (yet another of the points from SB's all too apt summary . . . ): _______ >> Maybe, we can try again. Now, I know you have found every excuse to avoid reading the notes I prepared here on, but I think much of what you have said above reflects that fact, and not to your advantage. I also see where you have managed to tangle up the point SB was making into pretzels, ending in such a confusion that it is wise to start from a different angle, to help see where things have gone wrong. Okay, start with a cricket ball in a shop show case. Not the fancy white ones so often seen these days, but the traditional red, leather bound little fellow. The kind that is usually made in a factory in Pakistan or the like. Let us call it A. Now, let us partition the world, as we stand next to the shop display at that corner in Davy Hill, Montserrat (complete with the fancy white ball sitting next to our traditional one . . . and never mind the fuzziness of the borders of the ball, that is inevitable in the real world, identity is sufficiently distinct, never mind leathern roughness much less quantum effects): W = { A | NOT-A } From that recognition of identity and distinction, we have the classic identity cluster of first principles of right reason standing out as self evidently so. (Discussed in the linked.) Now, zoom in on A: { A | NOT-A } A thing is distinct from that which is not the thing, and the thing cannot be the non-thing as well in the same sense and under the same circumstances. Also, when we believe there is such a thing, A, we cannot at the same time believe there is not A in the same time and sense. Similarly, when we assert that it is there, we must say IS or the like and not imply also IS NOT in the same, sense, time and circumstances etc. Such should be commonplace among educated people, but on long observation -- once the commonly seen quantum confusions (do read the extended discussion) are shown the door -- these are the exact doorways used to try to toss the matter into a confusion. We follow Schopenhauer, and ask: WHY A, seeking an answer. It is at once patent that we may ask such and seek an answer, a sufficient reason for A. Here, the answer has to do with cricket ball factories. But the subtler point is that A depends for its beginning and for its existence on certain enabling, on/off factors, let us say E1, E2 . . . En, and there may be other factors at work that influence the outcome F1, F2, . . Fm. For A to come into being, there must be a SUFFICIENT cluster of factors, including at minimum all of E1 to En. So to say that A was caused is a verbal short hand for that. A contingent being A is possible of existence and for its actualisation has dependencies on enabling factors and it has a beginning, at which point its potential existence is translated into actuality, per the factors at work. In summary of this, we may say that the potential being A received actuality by the application of a sufficient cluster of factors; here, in a FACTOR-y, of all things. Such a short hand way of speaking is reasonable and needs not be belaboured by skeptical debates on fine points. Simply take "A received its being from [certain] causal factors" as a short summary of the above or the like as elaborated. (Other designs for balls -- e.g. a baseball -- were possible, but were not actuated in the factory.) That also brings up another possibility. Some beings are possible and have no dependence on factors like E. Necessary beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is such. It had no beginning, cannot come to an end, and is sometimes said to be eternally contemplated in the mind of the ultimate necessary being, God. Where of course, a serious candidate necessary being will not be composite or made of atomic matter or the like [which is already contingent and composite as well as being a basis for composing material entities], and is such that its attributes will be mutually coherent. That is square circles and similar impossible beings need not apply for existence. Immediately, that need for coherence as a ground of possible existence, means that the attempt to sever causality from the laws of identity, non-contradiction and the excluded middle is wrong-headed. Precisely because possibility of being demands coherence of attributes, LNC is inextricably intertwined with causality. To try to construct an argument that depends on their being severed therefore misses the point that all of these are jointly absolutely foundational to reasoning. Indeed, they are all enabling constraining factors on sound reasoning. They are joint, necessary causal factors of such reasoning. Also, that we can ask ands seek an answer to why A is, entails that there is a reason for A, that will be constrained by the LNC etc. Where we have seen that where A is contingent, part of the answer will be that A was caused. A having a beginning is a common indicator of that, as would be A being a composite material entity. Where also such an answer cannot be put up without regard to LNC etc. So, we can start afresh from this point: once we have a thing A, its existence cannot be severed from the identity cluster (per the issue of coherence of attributes), and if it is such that it is contingent, it is caused, where certain causal factors E must be present for A to be. That, again raises the identity cluster. Jointly foundational first principles of right reason cannot be severed the one from the other or excluded from our considerations. Not, if we intend to be reasonable. >> _______ Let us see if RDF will be willing to amend his ways and squarely face and address the matters from worldviews roots on up. KF kairosfocus
RDF: We are also familiar with the rhetorical or propaganda tactic of the turnabout accusation or assertion. Which, per fair comment, you have improperly indulged in reply to SB's well-merited objection by all too apt summary of persistent behaviour sustained across weeks, in 539 above:
[cites RDF accusing SB:] You appear to be unable to debate without ad hominem attacks, which means you know you’re losing.
[SD replies:] There you go again. We have had enough experience with you to know that you do, indeed, equivocate, build strawmen, manipulate the language, create false impressions, misuse logical symbols, change definitions, ignore correctives, dismiss refutations, misrepresent others’ arguments, and, yes, claim to be winning when you are losing. [Emph. added] Are we supposed to pretend that these things are not happening? Here is a good example in your interaction with Phine[h]as P:
When discussing whether someone “created” a bomb found in their basement or whether it just “appeared,” the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I’m totally at a loss as to where you’re coming from.
RDF:
I’m coming from the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. The word “created” does NOT imply GOD or human beings. It just means it wasn’t there at one moment and it was there the next, and it doesn’t say anything at all about how it came to exist.
So here is Phineas summarizing the issue with an easily understood and eminently relevant example that dramatizes an important distinction (a distinction that you should already be aware of to even be qualified for this kind of dialogue) and here you are, as usual, ignoring the principle involved and reverting back to your talking points, completely frustrating his attempts to communicate with you in a rational way. It is far more rude of you to waste our time with this kind of sophistry than it is for us to call you on it . . .
Instead, RDF, kindly stick to the merits. That also brings up the you are non-entities objection you have made several times. This is nothing but one form or another of an appeal to authority on the one hand, multiplied by dismissiveness to wards those you are disagreeing with on the other, a fundamentally disrespectful and polarising, subtle ad hominem. Yes, for thousands of years, major worldviews issues have been debated back and forth, and there is no global consensus on such. Given that we humans are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often blinded and/or ill-willed, that should be no great surprise. The answer to any particular view on such topics, then is not: sez who -- you ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked IDiot or the near equivalent (explicit or implied by wider context), followed by the sort of rhetorical games we have seen over these past weeks now. Instead, let us embark on a comparative difficulties worldviews analysis exercise -- e.g. here on at 101 level, as you have refused to simply read all along [it would have taken a few minutes and would have saved weeks of largely pointless going in circles exchanges] -- exercise that allows us to see the significance of factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, with particular attention to the controlling nature of stated or implicit presuppositional assumptions. Indeed, it is quite evident that one of the underlying problems in your latest rhetorical gambit is that you -- ironically given your accusations of reification -- are trying to establish into an eternal force, the inductive generalisation known as the law of conservation of mass and energy. SB, quite properly, has observed that we observe and generalise on observed patterns in the world as a going concern, which has little to do with how that world -- which per the Big Bang Hubble red shift/ expansion observational evidence since the 1920's and since the cosmic microwave background radiation discovered in the 1960's is seen as originating at a finite distance in time, often estimated at 13.7 BYA -- came to be with its governing forces and patterns intelligible per induction as laws. Which, BTW, is at least in part an answer to the origins of our observed cosmos: it seems to have appeared at a singularity and expanded starting some 13.7 BYA, in a way that can poetically be described as in a flash of "light." Where there are some highly interesting and suggestive circumstances surrounding that singularity and following expansion. For, the underlying implied massive contingency puts us at a locally isolated pin-point cosmological operating point, that (as was pointed out in answer to 5for at 549 just above) is credibly fine tuned to the evident purpose of supporting C-chemistry, aqueous medium, molecular nanotech using, cell based life. That puts purpose and design by an intelligent agent with the skill, knowledge and power to build such a cosmos on the table as a serious contender. One that in your sweeping dismissal that no-one knows or has any serious clue as to how the mass and energy and associated conservation of same came about, you wished to suppress without consideration, without even naming. And all along, there is an evident, consistent, complex, subtle pattern of rhetorical devices in a train, all evincing the same object, that points, sadly, to design on your part RDF. I infer design on this, as you are far too educated and subtle in the devices to be simply and ignorantly parrotting somebody else's talking points. It is more than time for those tactics to stop. So, first, the fundamental point remains that after several weeks of back-forth, on whatever rhetorically tainted excuse seemed handy, you have consistently refused to attend -- e.g. here on -- to what would have cleared up a lot of confusions and opportunities for side-tracks and obfuscations in the first place on first principles of right reason including:
(a) what happens once the world has in it distinct things, A: W = { A | NOT-A }, i.e. the identity cluster of laws of reason: LOI, LNC, LEM. (b) that in that context, once a thing A is there, we may -- per Schopenhauer et al -- look at it and ask, why is it there [PSR], leading to contingency vs necessity, possibility vs impossibility of being (notice the paired partitions and contrasts rooted in antithesis thence inextricable presence of laws of identity, non contradiction and excluded middle) and thus, for contingent things, like matches struck into flame, cause-effect links -- with a particular reference to the significance of enabling, on/off causal factors. [Where also here and its onward linked extension would have helped clear up the common objection that quantum mechanics undermines the basic laws of thought. It does not, not least as it is built in ways that are grounded on such first principles, it cannot and does not saw off the branch on which it sits. Just think, it appeals to the "that-ness" of particular experimental arrangements and results (such as the quantum photo electric effect or the particle beam double slit experiment etc), and uses them to overturn alternative views.] (C) WE MAY THEN LOOK ONWARDS AT SIGNIFICANCE FOR WORLDVIEW FOUNDATIONS. (Which seems to be exactly where those wedded to a priori materialist scientism dressed up in the lab coat and secular humanism, and the fellow travellers are patently ever so desperate not to go. No prizes for guessing why.)
Likewise, it is quite evident that if we cannot think for ourselves but are the playthings of matter and energy interacting by blind chance and mechanical necessity, leading to determinism based on our our genetic inheritance and psycho-social conditioning in particular cultural matrices, we have no reasoning ability that is trustworthy to ground conclusions, including scientific ones. (Cf. here on on that.) That is, the fact that we are rational creatures capable of knowing and soundly arguing, even making conscience-guided decisions against impulses and desires as they are the right as opposed to the easy way to go, stands in massive support of the premise that the selves we are all conscious of, are sufficiently free and responsible, potentially reasonable agents. Might and manipulation do not make 'truth,' 'soundness' or 'right.' Perhaps, now we have sufficiently blown away the confusing, polarising clouds of rhetorical smoke from burning, ad hominem soaked strawmen, and can squarely face and address the matters on the merits. In that context, I call attention to two key observations that we would be wise to heed. On the first, as Philip Johnson observed in reply to Lewontin's notorious summary of a priori materialism:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
Also, as Plato warned our civilisation 2350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them . . . After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
With all due respect, too much of the exchanges above look uncommonly like what Plato warned against. KF kairosfocus
vividbleau to RDFish
I will let StephenB speak for himself but I dont think the above is accurate. My reading of his post #536 is pretty clear. I can see why he said “You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause.” StephenB is talking about two different things.
Yes, of course. Thank you. StephenB
Hi RDF
2) The Law of Conservation is usually phrased as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. You refuse to acknowledge this, but the fact remains that this law has nothing to do with God or people or other sorts of agents either.
I will let StephenB speak for himself but I dont think the above is accurate. My reading of his post #536 is pretty clear. I can see why he said "You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause." StephenB is talking about two different things.
Mirriam-Webster lists this entry for “create”: to CAUSE, as in “famine creates high food prices”. Everybody understands the use of the word this way, except apparently our friends here.
Gollee what is a dictionary anyway and who is this Mirriam Webster gal you are so enamored with? BTW Just for fun I Wiki'd "famine creates high food prices" never got a hit:) You have gone from "creation ex nihilo" "that has a specific, high-context meaning?" KF 528, and have moved to quibling over the definition of create from your Merriam Websters dictionary. Now I am sure no one disputes Websters definition, I certainly don't but Websters definition of create is not being denied by anyone as far as I can tell. What you are doing is taking the word out of context, the context being "CREATION ex nihilo" ".....taken out of context, easily leads to a strawman caricature and confusion" KF Vivid vividbleau
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: Your ["Every effect has a cause"] might mean two different things (are you intentionally equivocating????? ) First, you might simply mean that the word “effect” means “something with a cause” (but not everything is necessarily an “effect”) Second, you might mean that nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause (i.e. everything is an “effect”) Which do you mean? No equivocating now! PHINEHAS: Since your (Second) is a complete non sequitor, I would hope that I would never speak or reason is such a sloppy fashion. For me, “Every effect has a cause,” seems very straightforward and unambiguous.
Here is a perfect example - I think I am making perfect, obvious sense and you are utterly confused, and you think the same of me! Let's get to the bottom of it, shall we? You say my second meaning is a non-sequitor. In my view, what I said is virtually a statement of determinism, that is, everything that happens is fully determined by antecedent physical cause. So let's try that again: What does "Every effect has a cause" mean? I believe it may mean one of two things: 1) This is a tautology, true by virtue of the definitions of the words "cause" and "effect". That is, the word "cause" means "something that results in an effect" and the word "effect" means "something that happens as a result of some cause". 2) This is a statement about the way the universe works, and it is (almost) tantamount to saying that physical determinism is true. (The "almost" is to take into consideration stochastic causation, which I don't think is relevant to our discussion). It simply means that nothing happens which is not caused by something else. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
Rather than accusing you of doing something underhanded, I was attempting to warn you against how your posts might be perceived.
Oh, then my apologies. Then you do understand that my use of the word "created" as synonymous with "appeared" was not some intentional sort of equivocation; it was actually just an honest use of a perfectly valid sense of the word "created".
I continue to try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but confess that there have been moments where I truly wondered whether you were simply here to yank chains.
I understand how difficult it is to remain in good faith when you see others seem to abandon reason, sincerity, integrity, and so on. It is simply the way humans react when their beliefs are challenged. I always extend the benefit of the doubt: If anyone is willing to put aside the insults and get back to the debate, I am always ready to do just that!!
Coming from nothing and being created out of nothing are so easily understood to be two different concepts that it really does stretch credulity for me to trust that you sincerely don’t see the difference. But I still sincerely hope that you are being sincere.
I am perfectly sincere. 5for got it exactly. Here is what I really, sincerely mean: 1) The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy is a cornerstone of physics, never violated in the totality of our experience 2) Nobody knows how the mass/energy of our universe came to exist; there is simply no theory that accounts for it 3) Logically, either mass/energy is eternal or had a beginning. 4) If it had a beginning, then somehow the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy must have been violated at some point. (Another way to say the same would be to say that the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy didn't apply at some point). Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
We have had enough experience with you to know that you do, indeed, equivocate, build strawmen, manipulate the language, create false impressions, misuse logical symbols, change definitions, ignore correctives, dismiss refutations, misrepresent others’ arguments, and, yes, claim to be winning when you are losing. Are we supposed to pretend that these things are not happening?
I guarantee I see you exactly the same way. (And by the way, the readers who have commented here have generally thought that my arguments are better! :-) ) I think your arguments are just terrible, and that you equivocate, ignore, mispresent, and do all those bad things constantly. The only difference is that I have better manners than you do, and I don't get angry the way you do.
So here is Phineas summarizing the issue with an easily understood and eminently relevant example that dramatizes an important distinction (a distinction that you should already be aware of to even be qualified for this kind of dialogue) and here you are, as usual, ignoring the principle involved and reverting back to your talking points, completely frustrating his attempts to communicate with you in a rational way.
I think you and Phinehas are utterly confused on this point, and so does 5for. In support of my position, I point out: 1) The dictionary definition for "create" has meanings that have nothing whatsoever to do with agency, God, or people. In fact, Mirriam Webster gives the example "famine creates high food prices". 2) The Law of Conservation is usually phrased as "Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed". You refuse to acknowledge this, but the fact remains that this law has nothing to do with God or people or other sorts of agents either. You are simply wrong on this point, but instead of engaging my arguments you just rant and rave and insult me. Very poor form indeed.
It is far more rude of you to waste our time with this kind of sophistry than it is for us to call you on it.
I think you are getting frustrated because I have argued against beliefs that you hold dearly, and I am very good at making arguments. If you'd like to quit I will understand. Until then, I will debate with good manners, and in good faith. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi 5for, Thank you for trying to explain the issue with the word "create" in the Conservation Law. It is exactly as you point out: The law says that mass/energy cannot be created, and clearly it means that mass/energy can not appear in any way at all from nothing. It is amazing that the theistic connotations are so strong they cannot imagine a meaning for "create" that doesn't have to do with gods or people. Clouds create raindrops and asteroids create impact craters and rivers create riverbeds and canyons, but folks here are so steeped in theistic thinking that all they can think of when they hear "create" is God! Mirriam-Webster lists this entry for "create": to CAUSE, as in "famine creates high food prices". Everybody understands the use of the word this way, except apparently our friends here. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
5for
I am sure your inability to see the very simple point RDFish is making comes from the theological overtones the word “create” has for you.
I am sure that you do not understand his mistake.
...when you say god can create energy/mass, how can he do that without violating this law?
Unless the law is created (caused), it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, then it can't be violated. It is, therefore, impossible to break a law in the act of creating it. It has nothing to do with theological overtones and everything to do with cause and effect. StephenB
5for, Yes -- the evident multi-dimensional fine tuning that puts us at a local pin-point target zone fitted for C Chemistry, Aqueous medium, digitally coded information and polymer nanomachine technology using cell based life points to design of the observed cosmos. Design by a designer knowledgeable, skilled and powerful enough to build such a cosmos and probably also to arrange for the life in it. KF kairosfocus
PS: The above brings to mind Lord Russell's inductive turkey. On long study it formed the inductive generalisation that it would be fed by the Kitchen door every morning come 9:00 am. It seemed an absolutely reliable law of nature, like the rising of the sun. Then one fine morning, it was Christmas Eve. The difference in our case is that it seems there is an attempt to project an inductive law on the observed cosmos as a going concern to distract attention from the evidence that this going concern order did not obtain forever in the past. I repeat, we live in a cosmos that evidently had a finitely remote beginning. So to project the going concern general regularities as though all things have been so always and could not be different at any point, is as naive as that turkey. kairosfocus
KF, yes I agree. Have you got any idea about how the mass/energy of the universe was created? 5for
5for: Pardon, but first we routinely speak of the creative work of artists, musicians and engineers. To create is NOT substantially equivalent to poofing out of nothing -- the issue implied in the above, nor does it necessarily imply supernatural action. That little toxic distractor has long passed sell-by date, as from 360 BC in Plato's The Laws, nature acting by blind chance and necessity has been contrasted to designers acting by art. Second, you have followed in a repeated diversion: the law of conservation of mass and energy is an inductive generalisation, which relates to the observed cosmos as a going concern. That says nothing to how that cosmos got here with its regularities, presumably at the singularity. A LAW OF PRESERVATION HAS NOTHING TO SAY TO THE ORIGIN OF WHAT IS PRESERVED, OR HOW IT ITSELF HAD ITS BEGINNING. KF kairosfocus
RDF: Maybe the points just repeated in 540 can help identify what causes and effects are about. In addition, I commonly reflect non a struck match, which shows how each of heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction are needed or a fire. These are each, enabling factors and when brought together, provide a sufficient set of causal services or inputs for the result, the effect we call a fire to move from potential to actuality. Causes and effects are linked terms describing that which initiates or sustains or enables, and that which is so initiated, sustained or enabled. A concrete example makes the matter clear. For those who want to be clear -- squids seeking to escape do so by squirting a cloud of ink that obfuscates and confuses, after all. KF kairosfocus
Phinehas and StephenB, I am sure your inability to see the very simple point RDFish is making comes from the theological overtones the word "create" has for you. So first, you would agree would you not, that there is a physical law that energy/mass may neither be created or destroyed in our universe? It doesn't matter how it is allegedly created or destroyed, or who allegedly does it, whether its god or a wizard, it simply can't be done. Do you agree with this? Second, when you say god can create energy/mass, how can he do that without violating this law? Are you saying the law doesn't apply because the creation occurred outside of this universe? 5for
RDF:
Your ["Every effect has a cause"] might mean two different things (are you intentionally equivocating????? ) First, you might simply mean that the word “effect” means “something with a cause” (but not everything is necessarily an “effect”) Second, you might mean that nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause (i.e. everything is an “effect”) Which do you mean? No equivocating now!
Since your (Second) is a complete non sequitor, I would hope that I would never speak or reason is such a sloppy fashion. For me, "Every effect has a cause," seems very straightforward and unambiguous. Phinehas
RDF:
RDF: Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn’t. PHINEHAS: Why did you change the wording again? It tends to suggest that you are intentionally equivocating. RDF: First a note to everybody: Everyone here has a terrible tendency to be mean and paranoid, always accusing people of intentionally being irrational, lying, hiding, equivocating, building strawmen, and so on.
Rather than accusing you of doing something underhanded, I was attempting to warn you against how your posts might be perceived. I continue to try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but confess that there have been moments where I truly wondered whether you were simply here to yank chains. Coming from nothing and being created out of nothing are so easily understood to be two different concepts that it really does stretch credulity for me to trust that you sincerely don't see the difference. But I still sincerely hope that you are being sincere. StephenB: No worries. Your complimentary words more than made up for any spelling oversights. Phinehas
RDF: With all due respect, to try to appeal to the claimed unsettled debates over the centuries, is ltlle more than a fallacious appeal to modesty in the face of your preferred Magisterium, without assessment of the matter on the merits. If I am as wrong as you infer on the identity cluster tracing to the reality of distinct things, surely, it would be easy to show me wrong. Likewise, if my emphasis on enabling on/off causal factors (usually, necessary factors) is wrong, that too can be shown wrong. Perhaps even by a clip or two from those experts. Otherwise, you are simply hurling an elephant, indulging a superficial bluff by appeal to un-named experts, by way of avoiding coming to grips with a fairly simple matter on the merits. Accordingly, I call your attention back to the matters put on the table in 512 above: ________________ >>Maybe, we can try again. Now, I know you have found every excuse to avoid reading the notes I prepared here on, but I think much of what you have said above reflects that fact, and not to your advantage. I also see where you have managed to tangle up the point SB was making into pretzels, ending in such a confusion that it is wise to start from a different angle, to help see where things have gone wrong. Okay, start with a cricket ball in a shop show case. Not the fancy white ones so often seen these days, but the traditional red, leather bound little fellow. The kind that is usually made in a factory in Pakistan or the like. Let us call it A. Now, let us partition the world, as we stand next to the shop display at that corner in Davy Hill, Montserrat (complete with the fancy white ball sitting next to our traditional one . . . and never mind the fuzziness of the borders of the ball, that is inevitable in the real world, identity is sufficiently distinct, never mind leathern roughness much less quantum effects): W = { A | NOT-A } From that recognition of identity and distinction, we have the classic identity cluster of first principles of right reason standing out as self evidently so. (Discussed in the linked.) Now, zoom in on A: { A | NOT-A } A thing is distinct from that which is not the thing, and the thing cannot be the non-thing as well in the same sense and under the same circumstances. Also, when we believe there is such a thing, A, we cannot at the same time believe there is not A in the same time and sense. Similarly, when we assert that it is there, we must say IS or the like and not imply also IS NOT in the same, sense, time and circumstances etc. Such should be commonplace among educated people, but on long observation -- once the commonly seen quantum confusions (do read the extended discussion) are shown the door -- these are the exact doorways used to try to toss the matter into a confusion. We follow Schopenhauer, and ask: WHY A, seeking an answer. It is at once patent that we may ask such and seek an answer, a sufficient reason for A. Here, the answer has to do with cricket ball factories. But the subtler point is that A depends for its beginning and for its existence on certain enabling, on/off factors, let us say E1, E2 . . . En, and there may be other factors at work that influence the outcome F1, F2, . . Fm. For A to come into being, there must be a SUFFICIENT cluster of factors, including at minimum all of E1 to En. So to say that A was caused is a verbal short hand for that. A contingent being A is possible of existence and for its actualisation has dependencies on enabling factors and it has a beginning, at which point its potential existence is translated into actuality, per the factors at work. In summary of this, we may say that the potential being A received actuality by the application of a sufficient cluster of factors; here, in a FACTOR-y, of all things. Such a short hand way of speaking is reasonable and needs not be belaboured by skeptical debates on fine points. Simply take "A received its being from [certain] causal factors" as a short summary of the above or the like as elaborated. (Other designs for balls -- e.g. a baseball -- were possible, but were not actuated in the factory.) That also brings up another possibility. Some beings are possible and have no dependence on factors like E. Necessary beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is such. It had no beginning, cannot come to an end, and is sometimes said to be eternally contemplated in the mind of the ultimate necessary being, God. Where of course, a serious candidate necessary being will not be composite or made of atomic matter or the like [which is already contingent and composite as well as being a basis for composing material entities], and is such that its attributes will be mutually coherent. That is square circles and similar impossible beings need not apply for existence. Immediately, that need for coherence as a ground of possible existence, means that the attempt to sever causality from the laws of identity, non-contradiction and the excluded middle is wrong-headed. Precisely because possibility of being demands coherence of attributes, LNC is inextricably intertwined with causality. To try to construct an argument that depends on their being severed therefore misses the point that all of these are jointly absolutely foundational to reasoning. Indeed, they are all enabling constraining factors on sound reasoning. They are joint, necessary causal factors of such reasoning. Also, that we can ask ands seek an answer to why A is, entails that there is a reason for A, that will be constrained by the LNC etc. Where we have seen that where A is contingent, part of the answer will be that A was caused. A having a beginning is a common indicator of that, as would be A being a composite material entity. Where also such an answer cannot be put up without regard to LNC etc. So, we can start afresh from this point: once we have a thing A, its existence cannot be severed from the identity cluster (per the issue of coherence of attributes), and if it is such that it is contingent, it is caused, where certain causal factors E must be present for A to be. That, again raises the identity cluster. Jointly foundational first principles of right reason cannot be severed the one from the other or excluded from our considerations. Not, if we intend to be reasonable.>> ____________ If you have a good answer on the merits, let us hear it. Otherwise, you are doing little more than appealing to authority blindly, and by virtue of implying that I am a non-entity who can be brushed aside, indulging in a far more serious ad hominem than you are alleging. KF kairosfocus
I apologize for mispelling Phinehas as Phineas. StephenB
RD
You appear to be unable to debate without ad hominem attacks, which means you know you’re losing.
There you go again. We have had enough experience with you to know that you do, indeed, equivocate, build strawmen, manipulate the language, create false impressions, misuse logical symbols, change definitions, ignore correctives, dismiss refutations, misrepresent others' arguments, and, yes, claim to be winning when you are losing. Are we supposed to pretend that these things are not happening? Here is a good example in your interaction with Phineas P:
When discussing whether someone “created” a bomb found in their basement or whether it just “appeared,” the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I’m totally at a loss as to where you’re coming from.
RDF:
I’m coming from the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. The word “created” does NOT imply GOD or human beings. It just means it wasn’t there at one moment and it was there the next, and it doesn’t say anything at all about how it came to exist.
So here is Phineas summarizing the issue with an easily understood and eminently relevant example that dramatizes an important distinction (a distinction that you should already be aware of to even be qualified for this kind of dialogue) and here you are, as usual, ignoring the principle involved and reverting back to your talking points, completely frustrating his attempts to communicate with you in a rational way. It is far more rude of you to waste our time with this kind of sophistry than it is for us to call you on it. Beginning each correspondence with "Hi" and ending it with "cheers" does not compensate for the disingenuity that goes in the middle part. If you don't like the way you are coming across, change your behavior. Frankly, I don't think you can do it. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
It refers to the idea that the system is closed and that no more matter/energy can be added to it.
Well, the word "created" doesn't actually mean this, no. Rather, this is usually stated explicitly ("In a closed system..."). But yes you are correct, the word "created" here implies simply that no mass/energy can be added to or removed from the universe. It doesn't say anything about whether an "agent" or "God" or "magic" or anything else is responsible - it just says it can't happen!!!
That does not change the fact this same closed system, which is both finite and contingent, had to be brought into existence by an outside agent.
If by "agent" you mean "conscious being", then this is certainly not a "fact". We have no idea how mass/energy came to exist in the universe.
You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause.
You appear to be unable to debate without ad hominem attacks, which means you know you're losing. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn’t. PHINEHAS: Why did you change the wording again? It tends to suggest that you are intentionally equivocating.
First a note to everybody: Everyone here has a terrible tendency to be mean and paranoid, always accusing people of intentionally being irrational, lying, hiding, equivocating, building strawmen, and so on. Believe me - of course you all seem to do all the very same things. The difference is that I understand people think differently, and I'd rather patiently work to try and communicate clearly and understand what you're thinking, rather than accusing you of being insane or dishonest. I'm human too and at some point I'll give in and shoot a zinger or too of course, but as you've seen I'm much happier if you're willing to stick to the debate and leave the insults out of it. Thanks!
There are two very different concepts that you seem intent to conflate. 1. Every effect has a cause. 2. Material cannot be the source of material.
Your (1) might mean two different things (are you intentionally equivocating????? :-) ) First, you might simply mean that the word "effect" means "something with a cause" (but not everything is necessarily an "effect") Second, you might mean that nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause (i.e. everything is an "effect") Which do you mean? No equivocating now!
It seems you want to conflate these in order to support some point you are making, but these really are separate, non-contradictory concepts, notwithstanding strenuous assertions to the contrary.
I don't understand what you mean. Yes these are different concepts - causality and mass/energy. I don't think I conflated them. The point I was making was that the Law of Conservation does not apply to the beginning of the universe - we don't understand anything about how or why the Big Bang happened, and we can't talk about what happens outside of spacetime when none of our concepts apply at all. In order to clear this up, why don't you just explain how you think the mass/energy of the universe came to exist?
RDF: Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations. P: Are you even listening to yourself? Please provide some support for this ridiculous assertion.
I have but nobody here can read - or think - apparently. (Stay nice and I will too). Once again: The Law of Conservation says Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. What do you think that word "created" means in this scientific law? Do you think it refers to conscious agents? No, of course it doesn't.
When discussing whether someone “created” a bomb found in their basement or whether it just “appeared,” the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I’m totally at a loss as to where you’re coming from.
I'm coming from the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. The word "created" does NOT imply GOD or human beings. It just means it wasn't there at one moment and it was there the next, and it doesn't say anything at all about how it came to exist. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”.
Certainly
Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God?
Of course not. It refers to the idea that the system is closed and that no more matter/energy can be added to it. That does not change the fact this same closed system, which is both finite and contingent, had to be brought into existence by an outside agent. You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause. StephenB
This sounds like you believe your choices are caused by your desires (what you most want). Is that correct?
Desire is a longing or a wish for something.I know want can be defined as desire at least in my Oxford it is but desire is not defined as want. I don't think my choices are caused by what I most wish or long for so no I dont think that is correct. Vivid vividbleau
Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn’t.
Why did you change the wording again? It tends to suggest that you are intentionally equivocating. There are two very different concepts that you seem intent to conflate. 1. Every effect has a cause. 2. Material cannot be the source of material. It seems you want to conflate these in order to support some point you are making, but these really are separate, non-contradictory concepts, notwithstanding strenuous assertions to the contrary.
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
Are you even listening to yourself? Please provide some support for this ridiculous assertion. When discussing whether someone "created" a bomb found in their basement or whether it just "appeared," the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I'm totally at a loss as to where you're coming from. Phinehas
PS, 4: I see that SB at least in part of his case, makes the basic point I outlined above yesterday. SB, 337: >> The Law of Causality, like the Law of Non-Contradiction, is not empirical. Each is inextricably tied to the other. An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. It can either receive being from itself or from something else. It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else. Thus, its existence depends on a cause. The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other. >> kairosfocus
PPPS: It is worth noting (per a strawman assertion by RDF at that SB holds that everything has a cause) that the principle of sufficient reason distinguishes that which is contingent and caused from that which is necessary and so not caused. As is explained in the same notes that RDF refuses to read. kairosfocus
PPS: The tangents and recirculation to already adequately answered (but ignored) matters continue. The law of conservation of mass and energy speak to the experienced world as a going concern, one in which we have space-time and mass-energy acting in accordance with its laws. Such does not apply to the circumstances of the creation or beginning of said world. Where also, it is a commonplace that Physics discusses what happens subsequent to the singularity [aka big bang initiation event], as that is a horizon we cannot cross. This is a part of the context in which multiverse speculations are phil not phys, as we have no empirical controls on discussion. So, I must note that insistent drumbeat repetition of flawed notions in the teeth of previous correction does not transform them into sound points. kairosfocus
PS: Above, you speak in terms of possibilities of LNC, LOI and LEM not holding, and dismiss in a way that hints at subjectivism. It is not enough that you agree, the matter is that once a distinct thing, A exists, we have the partition: W = { A | NOT-A } from which the three principles in the identity cluster immediately follow. Moreover, you ignore the issue that for a thing A to be possible, its set of attributes must be coherent, i.e LNC is implicit in possibility of existence and so cannot be severed from actuality of existence. This includes existence of that which is contingent on external enabling factors, and so is caused. When we are dealing with truly foundational matters, that is how things will be. Once a thing A exists, it has its own identity, it cannot be what it is and something else under one and the same sense and circumstances [I deliberately do not refer to time there], and the dichotomy that marks the distinction A not NON-A excludes being neither or both, per the Ex-OR principle. That cannot be escaped. Nor is this (as you suggested above, muddying waters as usual . . . ) circularity in reasoning, we are speaking of an ontological reality in the first instance, which our beliefs and reasoning -- when done right -- reflect. kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
Sorry, we are talking about your argument. You need to present a rational argument in defense of your claim that LoC cannot be derived from LNC. Your first try failed. Why not try another?
HUH? IT IS YOUR ARGUMENT THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING. YOU MADE THE CLAIM THAT THE LoC DERIVES FROM THE LNC!!! You provided an argument intended to show that the LoC derives from the LNC. Now, I just took that original argument and tore it open line by line. If you want to try and defend your argument, show us where I'm wrong. But you can't, of course, because I'm not wrong - your argument fails simply because you assume the LoC in order to derive it! And here's the "keeper": You pick one sentence and toss off a drive-by unsupported dismissal, but skip the hard part:
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok? Of course not.
Come on - you can do better than that, no? Really? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF: Pardon -- and I know that you are wont to ignore this so I speak for record, do you understand that creation ex nihilo has a specific, high-context meaning? One, that, taken out of context, easily leads to a strawman caricature and confusion? That context is that in the ANE and in Greek culture, there was a concept of primordial matter (sometimes the body parts of a slain god, sometimes, just that primordial) that was re-worked -- often, on the account, imperfectly and foolishly -- to form the world in which we live. Hence on that sort of account, the mess we live in. BTW, in this context, a more apt summary was that we live in the SUMP of the cosmos, not the centre, which has a more positive connotation. The Judaeo- Christian teaching is that -- in utter contrast -- we come by creation from a necessary being who is immaterial and minded, who voluntarily calls the material cosmos into being without resort to primordial matter. And the first step in that process is oddly modern, creation of energy, with an emphasis on light. So, atomic matter, the familiar stuff doubly does not come from that which is primordially material. In that context, the point is that Creation Ex Nihilo does not mean, origin from nothing, which -- as you would learn from the notes you still refuse to read -- means non-being. Aristotle's definition is apt, once we see that rocks do not dream: nothing is that which rocks dream of. Instead, we have creation by God, the root cause of being. God, who has no causal dependence on enabling factors and has no beginning, no end, i.e. he is eternal mind. It is worth tossing in another point where today's atheists and materialists are ever so apt to go off the rails. God, as a serious candidate necessary being, is either impossible or actual (again, discussed in those notes you are ever so eager not to read). The commitment to materialism or another species of atheism is a commitment to the impossibility -- not merely improbability per one's perceptions and notions -- of God. (That is one reason why, formerly, the problem of evil was so popular for atheists, until Plantinga's free will defense fatally undermined it. Cf notes on on the relevant problem, good and evil, here.) KF kairosfocus
RD
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
Another keeper. StephenB
RD
The argument you are making is that the LoC can be derived from the LNC (in the way, for example, the Law of the Excluded Middle can indeed be derived from the LNC).
Sorry, we are talking about your argument. You have already misinterpreted, reframed, and mischaracterized my argument for days on end. So, changing the subject back to that dreary episode will not help you. You need to present a rational argument in defense of your claim that LoC cannot be derived from LNC. Your first try failed. Why not try another?
This is actually pretty interesting. You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“
. We will be keeping this one for the archives. StephenB
Hi Phinehas,
Surely you can see the difference between something coming from nothing and something being created out of nothing.
This is actually pretty interesting. You all seem to have this idea about what "creation ex nihilo" means and how it is different from, I assume, "appearing ex nihilo". Now, I'm sure you've seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as "Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed". Do you think the word "created" in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it's ok? Of course not. The word "create" doesn't mean anything different from "appear" unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
The first is a statement about a thing not having a source. Obviously, whatever has been created had a source in whatever created it, so the second statement can not be about a thing’s source. Instead, it is a statement about the fact that no outside resources are available for the source to use in the act of creating a thing.
This seems utterly contradictory. Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn't. If there is something (God) doing the creating, that means it isn't being created from nothing - it is being created from God's mind, or His words, or whatever it is that God uses to make things. Really, it's the same problem that physicists have when they say the universe can appear out of nothing because nothing is unstable. It's not nothing if the laws of physics already make nothing unstable.
Stephen is right in that the difference could hardly be clearer.
I actually think it's quite confused. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vividbleau,
RDF: I don’t understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think. VB: My point should be obvious.
I quite agree! Please do try and make your points obvious in the future! :-)
You called a technical foul if that makes your day have at it. I find it weak.
From your and Stephen's response I see what happened here. In your minds, the phrase "creation ex-nihilo is so deeply associated with theistic connotation that you simply can't see that it has a meaning quite apart from that. As I told Stephen, The Law of Conservation is usually stated "Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed". The verb "create" here does not refer to any divine act of creation - it only means "come into being".
I can only tell you what I think causes my choices what you think causes your choices you will have to tell me. What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose at the time the choice is made given the available options available to me at the time the choice is made. How about you?
What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose
This sounds like you believe your choices are caused by your desires (what you most want). Is that correct? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
I understand you attempted argument very well. It makes absolutely no sense. It begins by assuming that LNC and LoC are not connected and proceeds to the same inevitable conclusion. You really do need to read kairosfocus’ presentation about the connection between LNC and LoC. You really should.
This is funny!!! What is actually happening is that you are assuming the validity of the LoC in order to prove that the LoC follows from the LNC! Ok, let's get to the bottom of this. The argument you are making is that the LoC can be derived from the LNC (in the way, for example, the Law of the Excluded Middle can indeed be derived from the LNC). Here is your argument, line by line:
An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have.
Here you very obviously treat existence as a predicate, a logical error. But we're going to set that aside to see how wrong the rest of the argument is.
It can either receive being from itself or from something else.
You left out the third logical possibility, which is that it can pop into existence without any cause at all.
It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else.
No, this is a false dichotomoy, because you have left out the third option: It could be uncaused. This is why I say you are assuming the validity of the LoC in order to derive it!
Thus, its existence depends on a cause.
No, it might not depend on a cause. You are simply assuming that it has a cause, because you've assumed the LoC! This is why I say its existence either depends on a cause or it doesn't. Unless you assume LoC, then LNC does not tell you everything must have a cause!!
The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other.
Completely wrong. The LNC is correct, but you cannot derive the LoC from it.
You said something coming from nothing is called creation ex-nilio, which is spectacularly wrong. Something coming from nothing means without a creator and without a cause. That isn’t what exnilio creation means. To create out of nothing is to be the cause of the creation.
Oh, brother. You are telling me that my interpretation of "creation ex nihilo" is not just wrong but spectacularly so. In fact, my interpretation is perfectly accurate - it is you who are implicitly packing a bunch of theological asssumptions into the simple word "creation". The Law of Conservation is usually stated "Mass/Energy can neither be created nor destroyed". Get it? Lots of things are created - impact craters, hurricanes, lightning bolts - without some conscious super-being creating them. So saying "creation ex nihilo" does not imply anything about God - it just means something pops into existence from nothing.
You are saying that something that was caused is the same as something that was not caused.
No, I'm saying that if mass/energy is created ex-nihilo, it violates the law that says mass/energy cannot be created ex-nihilo. This one really is as simple as it looks.
You say a lot of irrational things like that.
Manners, Stephen. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means.
Surely you can see the difference between something coming from nothing and something being created out of nothing. The first is a statement about a thing not having a source. Obviously, whatever has been created had a source in whatever created it, so the second statement can not be about a thing's source. Instead, it is a statement about the fact that no outside resources are available for the source to use in the act of creating a thing. Stephen is right in that the difference could hardly be clearer. Phinehas
I don’t understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think.
My point should be obvious. I stated that it seems to me to get something from nothing violates the LNC. I said nothing about creation ex nihilo. The next thing I know you are claiming I hold to the position that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC. One thing your not is stupid and technically you are correct ex nihilo means out of nothing but you very well know how that term has been used historically.You called a technical foul if that makes your day have at it. I find it weak.
If you wished to actually take some sort of position on the matter, you would need to start by explaining what it is that you think causes our choices. Perhaps you mean a will or volition or res cogitans, or perhaps you think our choices are caused the same way the rest of what we observe is caused (physical causation). Would you care to share your thinking on the matter?
I can only tell you what I think causes my choices what you think causes your choices you will have to tell me. What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose at the time the choice is made given the available options available to me at the time the choice is made. How about you? Vivid vividbleau
RD
1) LNC is false and LoC is true 2) LNC is false and LoC is false
I understand you attempted argument very well. It makes absolutely no sense. It begins by assuming that LNC and LoC are not connected and proceeds to the same inevitable conclusion. You really do need to read kairosfocus' presentation about the connection between LNC and LoC. You really should. "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha – stop, you’re killin’ me.
You are killing yourself with irrational statements. The laugh is on you.
I didn’t say anything about GOD creating anything! I said “To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo.
I know what you said. You said something coming from nothing is called creation ex-nilio, which is spectacularly wrong. Something coming from nothing means without a creator and without a cause. That isn't what exnilio creation means. To create out of nothing is to be the cause of the creation. You are saying that something that was caused is the same as something that was not caused. You say a lot of irrational things like that. StephenB
Hi Vivid,
RDF: You haven’t said enough here for me to understand your position. VB: Whats so difficult? I dont think human choices are uncaused.
If you wished to actually take some sort of position on the matter, you would need to start by explaining what it is that you think causes our choices. Perhaps you mean a will or volition or res cogitans, or perhaps you think our choices are caused the same way the rest of what we observe is caused (physical causation). Would you care to share your thinking on the matter?
RDF: You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means. VB: Weak
I don't understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think.
RDF: So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics. VB: I will repeat myself, “it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason.
I think it would be more accurate to say that physics does not identify causes for certain observable events, but can still provably predict these results with perfect accuracy and incredible precision. Moreover, it has been proven that even if certain quantum events did have causes that physics currently does not recognize, these causes could not obey two fundamental principles that we accept implicitly, namely locality and realism.
Furthermore for me I don’t particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don’t have the full picture.
It's certain that we do not have "the full picture". What we do know, however, is that whatever the full picture is, it cannot obey locality and realism.
Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience.”
I actually haven't seen anyone presupposing that scientists are omniscient :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
You haven’t said enough here for me to understand your position.
Whats so difficult? I dont think human choices are uncaused.
You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means.
Weak :)
So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics.
I will repeat myself, "it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason. Furthermore for me I don’t particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don’t have the full picture.Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience." Vivid vividbleau
Hi Vivid,
I agree with you I thought I made that clear when I wrote “Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes.”
Again, I was trying to make clear that these things are true merely by definition, and not because they are facts derived logically or empirically somehow.
I don’t think that human choices are uncaused.
You haven't said enough here for me to understand your position.
RDFish I’m sorry where did I state that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC?
Here is what you said @496:
For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.
Like you I don’t appreciate posters putinng words in my mouth. I will try as well to not mistate things you have not said as well.
You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what "creation ex nihilo" means. You likely interpret this phrase to mean something else, based on other theological assumptions, but that is all beyond the dictionary definition of the term. So no, I have not put a single word into your mouth (apology accepted in advance :-))
Thats good to know unfortunately quantum physics has been used often as a demonstration that the laws of logic don’t apply in the quantum world.
I would say it differently. Laws of Logic are true because the way we think relies on them. However, the way we think does not capture the reality of quantum effects. So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
RDF: 2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC SB: No, the truth of one cannot be independent from the truth of other and I have shown why.
You gave one supporting argument, which was based, in my view, on the logical error of treating existence as a predicate. We could not come to an agreement on that aspect of the debate, and so I changed my argument. My argument against LNC => LoC now has nothing to do with using existence as a predicate; rather, my argument is the LNC simply does not imply LoC because LNC does not imply any notion of causality at all.
You can hardly make your case by saying, “Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that my case is true,” which is exactly what you are doing. RDF: 3) For example, let’s say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused. SB: Why should I assume something that isn’t possible. If I begin with a false premise, I will certainly end up with a false conclusion. That is what you are doing.
I still haven't been clear enough I see. Let us consider all four cases: 1) LNC is false and LoC is true 2) LNC is false and LoC is false Denying the LNC obviously makes any other reasoning impossible. We all agree the LNC is true so let us not try to consider these two conjunctions. 3) LNC is true and LoC is true This is what you believe is invariably correct, and moreover you believe that given LNC, LoC logically follows 4) LNC is true and LoC is false (i.e. there are exceptions to causality) You deny this conjuction, because you believe LNC=>LoC. However, I see no logical contradiction between LNC and NOT LoC. If you argue along the lines of "something that begins to exist must either be self-caused or other-caused", then you are simply assuming that LoC is true rather than demonstrating it. Without that assumption, there remains the possibility that something can begin to exist (or move or whatever) without any cause at all.
RDF: To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. SB: That is an astonishingly false statement,...
Hahahahahahahahaha. Looky here:
Ex nihilo is a Latin phrase meaning "out of nothing". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo
Every other reference gives the same meaning of course. Gee, there are a lot of astonishingly false statements out there regarding this latin phrase, huh? :-)
...but I am glad that you made it since it highlights the fact that you are conflating two things that are nowhere near being the same. For something to come from God, who created it out of nothing is, by no means, the same as something coming from nothing. God is not nothing.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - stop, you're killin' me. I didn't say anything about GOD creating anything! I said "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. And you yourself quoted me!!!! Oooh, now we're talking "astonishingly false" all right! :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
How twerdun -- cricket ball. kairosfocus
CR: Thanks, I have and use all three, though I use Libre Office form of OO. Abi gives a nice clean simple text -- e.g. no curly quotes -- with additional features. I dumped the old copy and reloaded from ground up, let's see if there is a fix. KF PS: SB, Thanks, I hope the lateral thinking approach helps. kairosfocus
kairosfocus, Excellent presentation above!! StephenB
RDF Maybe, we can try again. Now, I know you have found every excuse to avoid reading the notes I prepared here on, but I think much of what you have said above reflects that fact, and not to your advantage. I also see where you have managed to tangle up the point SB was making into pretzels, ending in such a confusion that it is wise to start from a different angle, to help see where things have gone wrong. Okay, start with a cricket ball in a shop show case. Not the fancy white ones so often seen these days, but the traditional red, leather bound little fellow. The kind that is usually made in a factory in Pakistan or the like. Let us call it A. Now, let us partition the world, as we stand next to the shop display at that corner in Davy Hill, Montserrat (complete with the fancy white ball sitting next to our traditional one . . . and never mind the fuzziness of the borders of the ball, that is inevitable in the real world, identity is sufficiently distinct, never mind leathern roughness much less quantum effects): W = { A | NOT-A } From that recognition of identity and distinction, we have the classic identity cluster of first principles of right reason standing out as self evidently so. (Discussed in the linked.) Now, zoom in on A: { A | NOT-A } A thing is distinct from that which is not the thing, and the thing cannot be the non-thing as well in the same sense and under the same circumstances. Also, when we believe there is such a thing, A, we cannot at the same time believe there is not A in the same time and sense. Similarly, when we assert that it is there, we must say IS or the like and not imply also IS NOT in the same, sense, time and circumstances etc. Such should be commonplace among educated people, but on long observation -- once the commonly seen quantum confusions (do read the extended discussion) are shown the door -- these are the exact doorways used to try to toss the matter into a confusion. We follow Schopenhauer, and ask: WHY A, seeking an answer. It is at once patent that we may ask such and seek an answer, a sufficient reason for A. Here, the answer has to do with cricket ball factories. But the subtler point is that A depends for its beginning and for its existence on certain enabling, on/off factors, let us say E1, E2 . . . En, and there may be other factors at work that influence the outcome F1, F2, . . Fm. For A to come into being, there must be a SUFFICIENT cluster of factors, including at minimum all of E1 to En. So to say that A was caused is a verbal short hand for that. A contingent being A is possible of existence and for its actualisation has dependencies on enabling factors and it has a beginning, at which point its potential existence is translated into actuality, per the factors at work. In summary of this, we may say that the potential being A received actuality by the application of a sufficient cluster of factors; here, in a FACTOR-y, of all things. Such a short hand way of speaking is reasonable and needs not be belaboured by skeptical debates on fine points. Simply take "A received its being from [certain] causal factors" as a short summary of the above or the like as elaborated. (Other designs for balls -- e.g. a baseball -- were possible, but were not actuated in the factory.) That also brings up another possibility. Some beings are possible and have no dependence on factors like E. Necessary beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is such. It had no beginning, cannot come to an end, and is sometimes said to be eternally contemplated in the mind of the ultimate necessary being, God. Where of course, a serious candidate necessary being will not be composite or made of atomic matter or the like [which is already contingent and composite as well as being a basis for composing material entities], and is such that its attributes will be mutually coherent. That is square circles and similar impossible beings need not apply for existence. Immediately, that need for coherence as a ground of possible existence, means that the attempt to sever causality from the laws of identity, non-contradiction and the excluded middle is wrong-headed. Precisely because possibility of being demands coherence of attributes, LNC is inextricably intertwined with causality. To try to construct an argument that depends on their being severed therefore misses the point that all of these are jointly absolutely foundational to reasoning. Indeed, they are all enabling constraining factors on sound reasoning. They are joint, necessary causal factors of such reasoning. Also, that we can ask ands seek an answer to why A is, entails that there is a reason for A, that will be constrained by the LNC etc. Where we have seen that where A is contingent, part of the answer will be that A was caused. A having a beginning is a common indicator of that, as would be A being a composite material entity. Where also such an answer cannot be put up without regard to LNC etc. So, we can start afresh from this point: once we have a thing A, its existence cannot be severed from the identity cluster (per the issue of coherence of attributes), and if it is such that it is contingent, it is caused, where certain causal factors E must be present for A to be. That, again raises the identity cluster. Jointly foundational first principles of right reason cannot be severed the one from the other or excluded from our considerations. Not, if we intend to be reasonable. KF kairosfocus
KF, sorry to hear you lost a doc! That's almost always bad. Perhaps some auto recovery option exists in Abi. FYI, here's another free office suite to add to the list: Kingsoft Office 2013. And then of course there is the always helpful and free Open Office Suite. Chance Ratcliff
RDFish: "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo." That is an astonishingly false statement, but I am glad that you made it since it highlights the fact that you are conflating two things that are nowhere near being the same. For something to come from God, who created it out of nothing is, by no means, the same as something coming from nothing. God is not nothing. StephenB
Thanks Chance!!! Vivid vividbleau
Vivid, I think these statements are tautologically true by definition. What is a cause? Something that makes something happen. What is an effect? Something that happens as a result of something else. So all this is simply definitional – all causes have effects and all effects have causes. This is like saying all bachelors are unmarried men – it’s just true by virtue of the definition of “bachelor”.
I agree with you I thought I made that clear when I wrote "Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes."
The questions remaining are: * Is everything that happens an effect, or are some things uncaused? Libertarianism requires that human choices are uncaused, which violates causality. I do not know if libertarianism is true, and nobody else does either.
I don't think that human choices are uncaused.
To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. StephenB claims that the mass/energy of the universe was created ex nihilo. You think that creation ex nihilo would violate the LNC. I think it violates the Law of Causality. Stephen thinks it doesn’t violate either one!!
RDFish I'm sorry where did I state that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC? Like you I don't appreciate posters putinng words in my mouth. I will try as well to not mistate things you have not said as well.I am with Stephen I dont think it violates either one.
Not sure what you mean regarding quantum physics, really. I would say it is perfectly clear that we do not “have the full picture” of quantum events! We have the math, but nobody can conceptually grasp what is going on with these weird phenomena.
Thats good to know unfortunately quantum physics has been used often as a demonstration that the laws of logic don't apply in the quantum world. Vivid vividbleau
CR thanks, I just lost something to a glitch in Abi Word, combox is like molasses for me now. KF kairosfocus
RD
2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC
No, the truth of one cannot be independent from the truth of other and I have shown why. You say it is possible, but you need to argue for your point. You can hardly make your case by saying, "Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that my case is true," which is exactly what you are doing.
3) For example, let’s say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused.
Why should I assume something that isn't possible. If I begin with a false premise, I will certainly end up with a false conclusion. That is what you are doing.
There is no logical contradiction – this does not violate the LNC.
I have made the case for the inseparability of the LoC and the LNC. So has vividbleau. So has kairosfocus. You have not made your case against it. StephenB
vividbleau, here's the exact syntax: <blockquote>Text</blockquote> produces
Text
This also works with a few other tags: <strong>Strong Text</strong> produces Strong Text <em>Emphasized Text</em> produces Emphasized Text <strike>Strikethrough Text</strike> produces Strikethrough Text Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB,
RDF: if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused SB: First, notice that the statement is too imprecise to even be associated with the LNC, which says that a thing cannot be what is is and what it is not at the same time in in the same sense.
I'm not "associating" LNC with the rest of the statement, Stephen. Just look at the logic: 1) We take as a true premise the exclusive disjunction "something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused" 2) Since for any Q, P => IF Q THEN P, we can say any number of true statements like this: LET X = "something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused" GIVEN: X IS TRUE This implies: - IF PIGS CAN FLY THEN X IS TRUE - IF PIGS CANNOT FLY THEN X IS TRUE - IF THE LNC IS TRUE THEN X IS TRUE and so on. Thus we have my statement, IF LNC is true THEN something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused I must also point out that you are insisting the the LNC be stated with the qualifier "at the same time". This doesn't affect my argument at all, but it does again point out that these laws all require the concept of time to make sense, which means none of them make sense outside of the context of spacetime!
So, you left those crucial words out in order to make your ridiculous proposition seem plausible.
You misunderstand my argument completely. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Let me try it again. 1) You claim that the LNC logically implies the LoC. In other words, if we accept the LNC we must logically accept the LoC. 2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC 3) For example, let's say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused. There is no logical contradiction - this does not violate the LNC. 4) Therefore your claim that LNC => LoC is false Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Vivid
But we must do so recognizing that these are indeed complex issues and we need to treat them from a position of humility not certainty.
Hear, hear!
Furthermore I think there is a danger to slip into what KF terms the “fallacy of hyperskepticism”
I agree about hyperskepticism, and reject that I indulge in that in the least (selectively or not). It is not hyperskeptical at all to doubt that mankind has found true answers to ancient philosophical questions of origins, mind/body ontology, free will, epistemology, moral theory, and so on. How can anyone think that certainty is available to us on these issues when nothing remotely approaching a consensus has ever been reached in millenia of debate, and even people within one particular religion (e.g. Christianity) disagree strongly about many of these issues?
Regarding the law of causality and its relationship with the LNC I do think that the LOC is a logical extension of the LNC. Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes.
Vivid, I think these statements are tautologically true by definition. What is a cause? Something that makes something happen. What is an effect? Something that happens as a result of something else. So all this is simply definitional - all causes have effects and all effects have causes. This is like saying all bachelors are unmarried men - it's just true by virtue of the definition of "bachelor". The questions remaining are: * Is everything that happens an effect, or are some things uncaused? Libertarianism requires that human choices are uncaused, which violates causality. I do not know if libertarianism is true, and nobody else does either. * Can causality be logically inferred from the LNC? I argue that it cannot.
I define the LNC in this way. A cannot be A and non A at the same time and in the same relationship.
That's fine.
For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.It would be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship. It would exist before it exists.It gives me a charley horse between the ears even contemplating something existing before it exists.
To say "something coming from nothing" is called creation ex nihilo. StephenB claims that the mass/energy of the universe was created ex nihilo. You think that creation ex nihilo would violate the LNC. I think it violates the Law of Causality. Stephen thinks it doesn't violate either one!!
As for nothing that concept is also inconcievable since I must think of something to describe what nothing is.
I agree with you completely on this! I think we can't possibly understand anything that is supposed to exist outside of the entire universe. If we say there is nothing - no space, no time, no light, no matter, and so on - then we can't imagine what that is, or what could or could not "happen" in such a context. Not sure what you mean regarding quantum physics, really. I would say it is perfectly clear that we do not "have the full picture" of quantum events! We have the math, but nobody can conceptually grasp what is going on with these weird phenomena. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
I meant no [ before and after the word angle? vividbleau
No { before and after angle? vividbleau
--> do not use square brackets kairosfocus
Vivid: [angle]blockquote[angle] CONTENT [angle]blockquote[/angle] KF kairosfocus
RD
Your statement is true for the inclusive “or”; I intended the exclusive “or”. Sorry, I thought the context would make that clear.
Let's examine it again:
if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused
First, notice that the statement is too imprecise to even be associated with the LNC, which says that a thing cannot be what is is and what it is not at the same time in in the same sense. You omitted the words "at the same time and in the same way," (either unwittingly or tactically [I never know which]) otherwise you would have recognized the flaw in your statement. In order to relate it to the LNC you would have had to say, If LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused at the same time and in the same sense, which would have been ridiculous. So, you left those crucial words out in order to make your ridiculous proposition seem plausible. StephenB
Blockquote test ""> vividbleau
Thank you very much for you comments. I too go back to ARN days, and you and I (under a slightly different name) have met many times before. I appreciate your thoughts quite a bit, so please do elaborate on where you think each of us went wrong. And yes, I’ve always found you to be an out-of-the-box thinker, and it is (at least for me) difficult to predict your arguments. Nice to see you!> Thanks for those kind words and whatever handle I knew you before in those ARN days it is nice to interact with you again as well.In my previous post I gave Kudos to you and others but I neglected to compliment Phinn and Chance, well done to both of you. As I was reading through the plethora of exchanges it became clear to me that in many respects my knowledge about these things are woefully deficient compared to the intellectual prowess of the various contibutors to this thread so I fearfully and with great trepidation offer my thoughts. RDF: We ought not pretend to be certain about these difficult, complex questions (origins, volition, ontology, etc) that have been debated endlessly thoughout history without ever reaching resolution. Even theists dramatically disagree with each other on these issues! But nobody ought to be certain about why there is something rather than nothing, nor how the universe came to exist, nor how life came to exist on Earth, nor how brains are related to conscious minds, nor if mental causality is ontologically distinct, and so on. We just don’t know the answers to those particular questions, and I think it is really important to admit that to ourselves and each other> Vivid:I think these are very wise admonitions. I think the only thing we can be certain about is that something is going on, however from that starting point we can come to reasonable although not provable ( whatever that word means) conclusions about some of the big questions as they relate origins, etc. But we must do so recognizing that these are indeed complex issues and we need to treat them from a position of humility not certainty. RDF:I’m very certain about is that we have no good reason to think we understand any of these ancient conundrums.> Because we cannot speak with absolute certainty on these issues does not mean we cannot have good reasons for our individual positions on these "conundrums" At least that is my current position which I am sure you will disabuse me of soon enough :) Furthermore I think there is a danger to slip into what KF terms the "fallacy of hyperskepticism" I know you don't particularly care for his blog but I have found his treatment of hypeskpeticism very helpfull. Regarding the law of causality and its relationship with the LNC I do think that the LOC is a logical extension of the LNC. Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes. For a simple mind and certainly the least brightest bulb in this conversation I define the LNC in this way. A cannot be A and non A at the same time and in the same relationship. For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.It would be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship. It would exist before it exists.It gives me a charley horse between the ears even contemplating something existing before it exists. As for nothing that concept is also inconcievable since I must think of something to describe what nothing is. I want to be clear I do not dispute what we have observed as it relates to quantum behavior. I know that we have observed that electrons ceases to exist at one point and simultaneously appears at another. I am familiar with Shrodingers Cat and the double slit. I find the quantum world absolutely fascinating and do not dispute its findings.I agree with Sproul it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason. Furthermore for me I don't particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don't have the full picture.Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience. Apologies in advance for any typo's. Vivid vividbleau
My symbol for exclusive disjunction didn't work and turned into a question mark. It's that symbol with the circle with the plus sign inside it. RDFish
Hi StephenB,
By way of LNC, if something begins to exist, it must either be caused or uncaused. One possibility must be excluded (Law of Excluded Middle). Therefore, it cannot be the case that it MAY be either caused or uncaused, which includes both possibilities.
Your statement is true for the inclusive "or"; I intended the exclusive "or". Sorry, I thought the context would make that clear. Again, the point is the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of LNC. In other words, LNC does not imply LoC. You have previously said the opposite - that the LoC can be derived from the LNC and that both stand or fail together. But if LoC can be either true or false (i.e. TRUE ? FALSE, exclusive disjunction) regardless of LNC, clearly LoC does not follow from LNC. Agreed? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD
Then statement (5) becomes: “Therefore if LNC is true then X is true”
(5) must be true because we’ve already established that X is true no matter what else is true or false.
By way of LNC, if something begins to exist, it must either be caused or uncaused. One possibility must be excluded (Law of Excluded Middle). Therefore, it cannot be the case that it MAY be either caused or uncaused, which includes both possibilities. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
5) is incorrect.
Here is why (5) is true: Let X be statement (4), "If something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused". We accept X as true. Then statement (5) becomes: "Therefore if LNC is true then X is true" (5) must be true because we've already established that X is true no matter what else is true or false. In other words, P => IF Q THEN P
The LNC does not say that something beginning to exist may be caused or uncaused.
In fact, the LNC does not say anything at all about causality. Things may be caused or uncaused whether or not the LNC is true.
It says that something beginning to exist may not be both caused and uncaused at the same time and in the same way.
I'd say it was the excluded middle that contradicts your statement rather than LNC, but that doesn't matter. The point is that things may be caused or uncaused whether or not LNC is true, and this means you are wrong to think that the LoC derives from the LNC. So I'll keep our summary the same for the time being :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD:
My rebuttal to the claim that the Law of Causality logically follows from LNC: 1) The Law of Causality is Either True or False 2) If the LoC is true, then everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 3) If the LoC is false, then not everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 4) Therefore, if something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused 5) Therefore, if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused 6) Therefore, the Law of Causality does not logically from from the LNC
5) is incorrect. The LNC does not say that something beginning to exist may be caused or uncaused. It says that something beginning to exist may not be both caused and uncaused at the same time and in the same way. StephenB
PLS forgive typos. kairosfocus
Hi Vivid: That we are/may be constrained by the baneful effects of addictive bondage to and habituation in sin in aggregate, does not mean that we have no choice in specific matters. Sufficient freedom to be responsible and potentially reasonable does not imply that we are free in an absolute, no-limits sense. At obvious level, I am not free to walk into the ocean a couple of miles from here, and swim to North America or Europe. Similarly, I am not free to flap my arms and take off, flying to same. I am not even free to run at 50 mph. None of these imply that I cannot sufficiently move my body at will to be responsible for so doing in sensible ways. That is, the fundamental thing is that, through constrained, I am not a pre-programmed robot, plaything of my genes and psycho-social conditioning, etc. In particular, by the gift of God, I have the capacity of love. The point can be illustrated by a slightly science fictional scenario. One of my former students is a wonderful, loving young lady who is widely and deeply respected. Now suppose, one morning, while combing her hair, she pressed a hidden button behind here ear, and to her shock, her head top pivots open, a printer screes away and announces in the text that she is a robot pre-programmed to act as she did. Would we be able to respect her as a loving person or a reasoning individual? Not any more. At most, one would hope that the programmer involved was not malevolent or capricious. In short,t eh pivotal issue is that persons with minds and wills of our own are pivotal, to the life of reason, the life of responsibility and relationship, and even to science. I am not willing to try to defend what any and every person may have freigntedf under the term, libertarian free will, but the point is that unless we are sufficiently free to be reasonable, responsible, choosing singificantly and loving, man is dead. And, not least, discussion is dead, as discussion reduces to programing, whether original or the injection of the equivalent of computer viruses. KF kairosfocus
Thank you, Vivid, for reminding me of another point that Stephen and I disagreed about, which is the incompatibility between libertarianism and causality. Uncaused mental causes with physical effects would indeed represent an exception to physical causality. Sorry about the misunderstanding regarding Calvinism - I wasn't sure. Please set me (and Stephen) straight on that! -RDFish RDFish
Hello vividbleau! Thank you very much for you comments. I too go back to ARN days, and you and I (under a slightly different name) have met many times before. I appreciate your thoughts quite a bit, so please do elaborate on where you think each of us went wrong. And yes, I've always found you to be an out-of-the-box thinker, and it is (at least for me) difficult to predict your arguments. Nice to see you! -RDFish RDFish
BTW how did I miss this thread from the start? My I Pad does not bring up the most recent comments it just lists the topics. I also shouuld qualify my statement that I agree with RDFish.I should have written that I found that there was alot that RDFish wrote that made sense to me but certainly I dont agree with everything.I could say the same regarding KF and StephenB. Vivid vividbleau
Wow I am so bumbed!!!! I was reading another thread and somehow hit a link that took me to this thread and have spent the last three hours reading 400 plus posts. I cant believe that I missed all the fun. Bravo RDFish, Bravo Stephen B, SCordova loved your insights as well. For the record I think free will is an oxymoron since it is never free from me. Since I am a Christian I will quote Augustine "non posse non peccare" we are "not able not to sin" To bad no one will read this since the discussion pretty much has run its course but here are my observations and conclusions. I think RDFish realy exposed major problems with libertarian free will as it relates to the law of causality. My position is that my choices are self determined as if anyone cares at this point. I think StephenB is correct that the LNC and the LOC are wedded together. I dont even know why I am writing this no one will see it. I have more comments I would make as to the various points made by each participant having just spent hours reading the whole thread so I will leave it at that. I would only say that it was a great back and forth but I found myself agreeing with RDFish. For the record I go way way back to the ARN days and have great respect for KF et al and I am sure I will piss some people off by saying this but I do have some out of the box view on things. PS RDFish Calvinism does not teach that God makes our choices. Bravo to all, Vivid vividbleau
StephenB, To review our debate results: Here is what we now agree on: 1) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 2) The Law of Conservation doesn’t apply to the beginning of the universe. If it did, it would obviously be violated by ex nihilo creation. 3) We agree that the Rules of Reason are self-evidently true (even though you refuse for some bizarre reason to allow me to hold this position) Here is what we disagree on: 4) You say that the Law of Causality does apply to the beginning of the universe. I say that we have no way of understanding what happens outside of spacetime, and none of our concepts apply in a context where neither space nor time exists. You reject that causes must precede effects in cause-effect relationships, and somehow know that God wouldn't want to withhold the Law of Causality the way He did with the Law of Conservation. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. 6) You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians). 7) You believe that knowledge can be 100% absolutely certain; I (along with virtually all epistemologists, including Christian ones) believe there are limits to epistemological justification, including that we cannot guarantee the reliability of our own minds. And here are the points that you've simply refused to respond to: 8) You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering "prior to" the existence of time itself. 9) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. 10) You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. So that’s three points we agree on, four that we disagree on (and you’re wrong about), and three you've failed to respond to enirely (you’re wrong about those too). Perhaps you've given up? If so, thanks - it's been fun! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF: Have you forgotten that our cosmos is finitely limited in time on the evidence pointing to a finitely remote beginning some 13.7 BYA? Do you understand what a beginning entails, by way of the characteristics of the relevant object, and by way of its contingency? Do you need for me to push back from now to the singularity and point out that it is only this side of it that conservation patterns summarised by laws are relevant? Moreover, do you appreciate that this is the only physical domain we have empirical evidence of, so that multiverse speculations have departed the realm of empirically grounded science? Do you not see that this says essentially the same as was stated already, only in a more clumsy and roundabout fashion because of selectively hyperskeptical objections? KF kairosfocus
'Folk, it’s over. The materialist bewitchment, the spell dressed up in a lab coat, lies shattered. Irretrievably broken.' You forgot the test-tube, KF. But how to apply it? Putting it in a pocket of that lab coat, wouldn't really cut it, would it? I love the thought of our 'scientisimificist' friends triumphantly holding up a test-tube. Ah.. Bisto! But you Atlantic riparians are probably unfamiliar with that old British ad for gravy. Doesn't have quite the ring of Eureka, banal, though that is. Axel
It's not non-time; it's transcendental time, without beginning or end. Axel
Nonsense. Eternity is endless time from which God was/is able to create our space/time. Oh foolishness, thy name is RDFish. Axel
Don’t you see that until there was a beginning to the cosmos, there was nothing to be conserved
Don't you see that there is no such thing as "until there was a beginning"? The word "until" entails the concept of time, which does not exist apart from spacetime. All this talk of "before the universe began" and "until the universe began" is nonsense. RDFish
F/N: This aptly, but rather sadly, illustrates the breakdown of basic reasoning occasioned by our age's reigning orthodoxies. KF kairosfocus
RDF: Don't you see that until there was a beginning to the cosmos, there was nothing to be conserved, and that by the act of creating an organised cosmos, its underlying laws would also have been created together with its basic constituents? (BTW, this has already been pointed out to you in essence by SB, you have just chosen to ignore it in haste to score what seem to you to be rhetorical points.) At this point, with all due respect you come across to me much as the person puzzled by the following challenge:
Q: Is it possible to stand at one and the same point and be due north of London, England as well as Los Angeles, California and Tokyo, Japan?
At first this often seems silly, obviously impossible. But in fact that reflects an inadequate conception of the Earth as a sphere with poles. The North pole is due north of every other point on Earth. KF kairosfocus
typo: Should have read: It is not possible for God to have first created mass/energy and then created the Law of Conservation… because there is no such thing as “first” or “then” or “until” when there is no time! I’m betting you won’t even attempt an answer to this one! RDFish
Hi StephenB,
What does it mean to apply the Law of Conservation to the beginning of the universe?
I've already told you I agree that these laws do not apply outside of the universe, so there is no answer to that question.
Are you confusing the Law of Conservation, which cannot apply to the beginning of the universe, with the Law of Causality, which must apply to the beginning of the universe?
It's very, very funny how you decide which of these well-established empirical laws must apply at the beginning of the universe and which of them must not apply! And by an amazing coincidence, the ones you need for theological purposes are the same ones you decide must apply, and the ones that contradict your theology you declare do not apply! Hmmm :-)
First, you specifically refer to the Law of Conservation, but then you use the term “any laws,” which would also include the Law of Causality.
Yes of course. Both of these laws (causality, conservation) derive from our knowledge of the universe, and it is irrational to insist that they apply when everything we know - time and space themselves! - does not exist. We cannot possibly conceive of a reality that has no space and time - we understand exactly nothing about it - and so for us to speak of causality or conservation or consciousness or anything else in that context must be based on faith and faith alone. There is certainly nothing wrong with that - but the problem is when folks confuse faith with inferences from the Rules of Reason!
I don’t think I have ever encountered such an undisciplined mind.
I see that you have this overwhelming need to insult those who you disagree with, especially when you're losing a debate. Didn't you ever learn manners?
Of course God’s creative act doesn’t violate any laws. There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it? It is the Law of Causality that God would not violate and He certainly doesn’t violate it by causing the universe to exist.
And how is it that you know with such certainty that God doesn't mind putting off conservation laws until he has all his mass/energy stuff in order, but insists on putting in place the law of causality right away? Did He explain this somewhere? And here's a really good one: You say "There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it?" Do you not realize that this word "until" assumes that time exists? Ooops! If there is no universe, there is no time, and so there can't be any temporal ordering, and so there can be no "until"! It is not possible for God to have first created mass/energy and then created the Law of Causality... because there is no such thing as "first" or "then" or "until" when there is no time! I'm betting you won't even attempt an answer to this one! Yikes, Stephen - really, the more you explain, the more contradictory your explanations get! By the way, whatever happened to that idea of "potential existence", anyway? Seriously - I know you're making this up as you go along.
If that was fun for you, imagine how much joy you will experience when you learn to think rationally. The remainder of your post is filled with lies, distortions, and evasions as responses to my having answered all your questions. They are not worthy of a response.
Actually I gauge how successful I'm being at demolishing each of your arguments by how ornery you get. Based on this response, I can tell you're feeling pretty beaten down. I'm sorry Stephen - I really don't want you to feel bad. I don't have a lot invested emotionally in these debates - it's just sort of a game that I'm good at. As I said, I don't have allegiance to any particular isms, except maybe "mysterianism" - the idea that we really have no clue why things are the way they are. But I could be wrong about that too. :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD:
So noted! SB has no response at all to my argument regarding the fact that creation of mass/engery violates conservation.
Don't get excited. The answer is coming.
First you say that we needn’t give up the Law of Causality when it comes to the beginning of the universe.
Right.
You declare that it simply doesn’t matter that causes must temporally precede effects and that nothing could exist temporally prior to the beginning of the universe.
Causes need not temporally precede effects, as I have explained to you more than once.
Then when it comes to the Law of Conservation, you throw that right under the bus. It can’t be applied to the beginning of the universe of course!
That comment has not been well thought out. What does it mean to apply the Law of Conservation to the beginning of the universe? Are you confusing the Law of Conservation, which cannot apply to the beginning of the universe, with the Law of Causality, which must apply to the beginning of the universe? Who can know? Your mind is so confused and jumbled and illogical that you just drift from one thought(? ) to another without ever making the relevant connections.
Gee, what was I thinking?
You weren’t thinking at all.
If God wants to violate The Law of Conservation and go “poof” and create mass/energy out of nothing at all, you say no problem! You say that doesn’t violate any laws!
This is an astounding display of irrational nonsense. First, you specifically refer to the Law of Conservation, but then you use the term "any laws," which would also include the Law of Causality. I don't think I have ever encountered such an undisciplined mind. Of course God's creative act doesn’t violate any laws. There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it? It is the Law of Causality that God would not violate and He certainly doesn’t violate it by causing the universe to exist.
But if anybody says we can’t infer a cause of the universe because there can’t be causes if no time exists, then… You complain that violates the sacred Law of Causality!
I have explained to you three times (I counted) that an effect can be dependent on a cause even if there is no time element involved. If the universe is contingent (dependent on something, someone else) then it must be caused. Time need not be a factor.
Ok then, that was fun. Here’s our current status:
If that was fun for you, imagine how much joy you will experience when you learn to think rationally. The remainder of your post is filled with lies, distortions, and evasions as responses to my having answered all your questions. They are not worthy of a response. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
RDF: You can’t use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason – you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. SB: As a general rule, that is true. Logic alone is very limited. It’s rules apply to the real world, but without observation, you can’t get very far.
Uhhh, ok... we could have agreed about that a long time ago! LNC won't get you to causality by logic, and causality won't get you to a First Cause by logic, and...
You mistakenly associate me with Anselm because you think that arguing for self-evident truths is tantamount to arguing for the sufficiency of logic. Both you and scordova labor under that misconception.
No, I did not say you believed Anselm's arguments; rather, I said that you made the same mistake as Anselm by treating existence as a predicate.
I understand that, except in a few cases, the rules of logic are not totally sufficient. The problem is that you don’t think they are rules at all or that they are necessary or self-evident or certain. If they are not certain, they are useless.
We've been talking past each other for a long time on this. I have said maybe 100 times: 1) Of course I believe there are logical rules 2) Of course I believe these logical rules are self-evident 3) Of course I believe that nothing whatsoever is 100% absolutely certain - even logic itself - because of the reasons I've given many times 4) Of course I believe that logic does not allow you answer questions about the world
The intellectual life is built on a rock, not quicksand. Accordingly, you are certain that there is no certainly.
Like every epistemologist I have ever read, include Christian ones, I believe that we can never prove anything with 100% absolute certainty. For one thing, we can never guarantee the reliability of our own minds. You think differently; let's agree to disagree on this.
Your whole philosophy is self-refuting, as is scordovas.
I don't know who fed you that line, but it's ridiculous.
What you and he have in common is that both of your reject reason’s rules;
I really have told you perhaps 20 or 30 times that this is untrue. I accept reason's rules. I reject that we can guarantee 100% the reliabiliy of our own minds, and I reject that we can interpret natural language questions in logic with 100% reliability, and so I reject absolute 100% certainty. If you can find one single statement that implies I "reject reason's rules" I will concede every point to you and tell everybody I'm a big fat idiot. But you can search these long threads all you'd like and you'll never find such a statement. And so we all must conclude that you have a very strong need to believe that I hold the position you falsely attribute to me. In other words, you are deluded about this.
...you do it in the name of hyperskepticism; he does it in the name of fideism. Both represent intellectual suicide and, interestingly, the death of faith as well.
Very dramatic! Utterly false!
RDF: Either the Law of Conservation holds without exception, or it does not. Mass/energy being created ex nihilo represents an exception to this Law. You assert that mass/energy was created by something. Therefore, your assertion implies that there is an exception to the Law of Conservation. SB: Meaning no unkindness, but I don’t think it is even necessary for me to take that apart. I am sure than any of our readers can do it. Let’s wait and find out.
So noted! SB has no response at all to my argument regarding the fact that creation of mass/engery violates conservation.
SB: You keep saying that to “receive” existence is to do something. As I have pointed out numerous times that simply isn’t true. If the Creator of existence gives it, then obviously it is the act of giving that is the action, not the reception. To receive existence is clearly not to do anything. RDF: I’ve already agreed to disagree on this point. SB: You never really engaged the argument at all.
Yeah, I did - I countered it with both English and predicate logic.
Only the giver of existence is doing something. The receiver of existence is doing nothing. There really isn’t any question about what that means. Nevertheless, your whole house of cards is based on that false and illogical claim that the receiver of existence is doing something. So, rather than address the argument on its merits, you first try to use a little fuzzy logic, and when I show you why it is fuzzy, you simply disengage rather then deal with the refutation.
Your only refutation was that you didn't like my logic! You didn't refute it! You just want to go over and over this, but I've already agreed to disagree about it. You believe that existence can be consistently treated as a predicate, and I (and most philosophers) believe the opposite. Let's move on.
The Law of Causality is implicit in the Law of Non-Contradiction.
Well no, it really isn't.
The purpose for doing the derivation was to make explicit that which was implicit and show why that must be the case. Your response to that derivation was to claim that it is illogical on the grounds that it has the receiver of existence “doing something.”
I've already agreed to disagree about that, and proceded to demolish the argument in a completely different way. You have not responded to it: In my very last post I said:
RDF: You have not responded to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all.
And in the post before that I said:
You didn’t respond to my point regarding how causality does not derive from the LNC, because the LNC does not entail that anything is caused at all.
And in the post before that I made the full argument:
My rebuttal to the claim that the Law of Causality logically follows from LNC: 1) The Law of Causality is Either True or False 2) If the LoC is true, then everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 3) If the LoC is false, then not everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 4) Therefore, if something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused 5) Therefore, if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused 6) Therefore, the Law of Causality does not logically from from the LNC
You just skip over these things, but fortunately for me they stay right where I left 'em - on this page in black and white!
RDF: Therefore, your assertion implies that there is an exception to the Law of Conservation. SB: This is an egregious logical error. I guess I should not wait for a reader to correct you.
Oh good! One more response! Thank you!
"Without exception” does not mean “existed for all eternity.” The Law of Conservation cannot apply to a universe that has yet to come into existence, and it can only exist if brought into existence. So bringing it into existence does not violate it. As usual, you are misusing words, such as “without exception,” trying to make it convey the sense of an eternal law.
Oooh, I'm afraid you've really stepped in it this time. First you say that we needn't give up the Law of Causality when it comes to the beginning of the universe. You declare that it simply doesn't matter that causes must temporally precede effects and that nothing could exist temporally prior to the beginning of the universe. You still cling to the idea that this law simply must apply to the beginning of the universe! Then when it comes to the Law of Conservation, you throw that right under the bus. It can't be applied to the beginning of the universe of course! Gee, what was I thinking? :-) If God wants to violate The Law of Conservation and go "poof" and create mass/energy out of nothing at all, you say no problem! You say that doesn't violate any laws! But if anybody says we can't infer a cause of the universe because there can't be causes if no time exists, then... You complain that violates the sacred Law of Causality! Ok then, that was fun. Here's our current status: Here is what we agree on: 1) I believe we now agree on this point: You can’t use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason – you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 2) You say the Law of Conservation doesn't apply to the beginning of the universe. I agree that laws such as this cannot be applied to the beginning of the universe, but if the law was applied it would obviously be violated by ex nihilo creation. So I we've come to agree that scientific laws do not apply in all contexts and domains, and certaintly break down with it comes to the beginning of the universe. 3) We agree that the Rules of Reason are self-evidently true (even though you refuse for some bizarre reason to allow me to hold this position) Here is what we disagree on: 4) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree. 5) You say that causes do not have to precede effects in order to be an example of a cause-effect relationship as we understand it, and that the Law of Causality still applies to the beginning of the universe. I disagree. 6) You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree. 7) You believe that knowledge can be 100% absolutely certain; I believe there are limits to epistemological justification, including that we cannot guarantee the reliability of our own minds. And here are the points where we haven’t yet clarified our disagreement: 7) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. 8) You have not responded to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. So that's three points we agree on, four that we disagree on (and you're wrong about), and two you haven't responded to (you're wrong about those too). Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Folk, it's over. The materialist bewitchment, the spell dressed up in a lab coat, lies shattered. Irretrievably broken. It cannot even stand up to the basic laws of thought. Let us now have courage to return to him who for two thousand years, has shaped our civilisation. For he who shaped our past also holds our future. kairosfocus
F/N 2: Peggy Noonan's classic column will help us get the point: ____________ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122479408458463941.html April 7, 2005 'We Want God' When John Paul II went to Poland, communism didn't have a prayer. >> Everyone has spoken this past week of John Paul II's role in the defeat of Soviet communism and the liberation of Eastern Europe. We don't know everything, or even a lot, about the quiet diplomatic moves--what happened in private, what kind of communications the pope had with the other great lions of the 1980s, Reagan and Thatcher. And others, including Bill Casey, the tough old fox of the CIA, and Lech Walesa of Solidarity. But I think I know the moment Soviet communism began its fall. It happened in public. Anyone could see it. It was one of the great spiritual moments of the 20th century, maybe the greatest. It was the first week in June 1979. Europe was split in two between east and west, the democracies and the communist bloc--police states controlled by the Soviet Union and run by local communist parties and secret police. John Paul was a new pope, raised to the papacy just eight months before. The day after he became pope he made it clear he would like to return as pope to his native Poland to see his people. The communists who ran the Polish regime faced a quandary. If they didn't allow the new Pope to return to his homeland, they would look defensive and frightened, as if they feared that he had more power than they. To rebuff him would seem an admission of their weakness. On the other hand, if they let him return, the people might rise up against the government, which might in turn trigger an invasion by the Soviet Union. The Polish government decided that it would be too great an embarrassment to refuse the pope. So they invited him, gambling that John Paul--whom they knew when he was cardinal of Krakow, who they were sure would not want his presence to inspire bloodshed--would be prudent. They wagered that he would understand he was fortunate to be given permission to come, and understand what he owed the government in turn was deportment that would not threaten the reigning reality. They announced the pope would be welcome to come home on a "religious pilgrimage." John Paul quickly accepted the invitation. He went to Poland. And from the day he arrived, the boundaries of the world began to shift. Two months before the pope's arrival, the Polish communist apparatus took steps to restrain the enthusiasm of the people. They sent a secret directive to schoolteachers explaining how they should understand and explain the pope's visit. "The pope is our enemy," it said. "Due to his uncommon skills and great sense of humor he is dangerous, because he charms everyone, especially journalists. Besides, he goes for cheap gestures in his relations with the crowd, for instance, puts on a highlander's hat, shakes all hands, kisses children. . . . It is modeled on American presidential campaigns. . . Because of the activation of the Church in Poland our activities designed to atheize the youth not only cannot diminish but must intensely develop. . . In this respect all means are allowed and we cannot afford any sentiments." The government also issued instructions to Polish media to censor and limit the pope's comments and appearances. On June 2, 1979, the pope arrived in Poland. What followed will never be forgotten by those who witnessed it. He knelt and kissed the ground, the dull gray tarmac of the airport outside Warsaw. The silent churches of Poland at that moment began to ring their bells. The pope traveled by motorcade from the airport to the Old City of Warsaw. The government had feared hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands would line the streets and highways. By the end of the day, with the people lining the streets and highways plus the people massed outside Warsaw and then inside it--all of them cheering and throwing flowers and applauding and singing--more than a million had come. In Victory Square in the Old City the pope gave a mass. Communist officials watched from the windows of nearby hotels. The pope gave what papal biographer George Weigel called the greatest sermon of John Paul's life. Why, the pope asked, had God lifted a Pole to the papacy? Perhaps it was because of how Poland had suffered for centuries, and through the 20th century had become "the land of a particularly responsible witness" to God. The people of Poland, he suggested, had been chosen for a great role, to understand, humbly but surely, that they were the repository of a special "witness of His cross and His resurrection." He asked then if the people of Poland accepted the obligations of such a role in history. The crowd responded with thunder. "We want God!" they shouted, together. "We want God!" What a moment in modern history: We want God. From the mouths of modern men and women living in a modern atheistic dictatorship. The pope was speaking on the Vigil of Pentecost, that moment in the New Testament when the Holy Spirit came down to Christ's apostles, who had been hiding in fear after his crucifixion, filling them with courage and joy. John Paul picked up this theme. What was the greatest of the works of God? Man. Who redeemed man? Christ. Therefore, he declared, "Christ cannot be kept out of the history of man in any part of the globe, at any longitude or latitude. . . . The exclusion of Christ from the history of man is an act against man! Without Christ it is impossible to understand the history of Poland." Those who oppose Christ, he said, still live within the Christian context of history. Christ, the pope declared, was not only the past of Poland--he was "the future . . . our Polish future." The massed crowd thundered its response. "We want God!" it roared. That is what the communist apparatchiks watching the mass from the hotels that rimmed Victory Square heard. Perhaps at this point they understood that they had made a strategic mistake. Perhaps as John Paul spoke they heard the sound careen off the hard buildings that ringed the square; perhaps the echo sounded like a wall falling. The pope had not directly challenged the government. He had not called for an uprising. He had not told the people of Catholic Poland to push back against their atheist masters. He simply stated the obvious. In Mr. Weigel's words: "Poland was not a communist country; Poland was a Catholic nation saddled with a communist state." The next day, June 3, 1979, John Paul stood outside the cathedral in Gniezno, a small city with a population of 50,000 or so. Again there was an outdoor mass, and again he said an amazing thing. He did not speak of what governments want, nor directly of what a growing freedom movement wants, nor of what the struggling Polish worker's union, Solidarity, wanted. He spokeof what God wants. "Does not Christ want, does not the Holy Spirit demand, that the pope, himself a Pole, the pope, himself a Slav, here and now should bring out into the open the spiritual unity of Christian Europe . . .?" Yes, he said, Christ wants that. "The Holy Spirit demands that it be said aloud, here, now. . . . Your countryman comes to you, the pope, so as to speak before the whole Church, Europe and the world. . . . He comes to cry out with a mighty cry." What John Paul was saying was remarkable. He was telling Poland: See the reality around you differently. See your situation in a new way. Do not see the division of Europe; see the wholeness that exists and that not even communism can take away. Rhetorically his approach was not to declare or assert but merely, again, to point out the obvious: We are Christians, we are here, we are united, no matter what the communists and their map-makers say. It was startling. It was as if he were talking about a way of seeing the secret order of the world. That day at the cathedral the communist authorities could not stop the applause. They could not stop everyone who applauded and cheered. There weren't enough jail cells. But it was in the Blonie Field, in Krakow--the Blonia Krakowskie, the fields just beyond the city--that the great transcendent moment of the pope's trip took place. It was the moment when, for those looking back, the new world opened. It was the moment, some said later, that Soviet communism's fall became inevitable. It was a week into the trip, June 10, 1979. It was a sunny day. The pope was to hold a public mass. The communist government had not allowed it to be publicized, but Poles had spread the word. Government officials braced themselves, because now they knew a lot of people might come, as they had to John Paul's first mass. But that was a week before. Since then, maybe people had seen enough of him. Maybe they were tiring of his message. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But something happened in the Blonie field. They started coming early, and by the time the mass began it was the biggest gathering of humanity in the entire history of Poland. Two million or three million people came, no one is sure, maybe more. For a mass. And it was there, at the end of his trip, in the Blonie field, that John Paul took on communism directly, by focusing on communism's attempt to kill the religious heritage of a country that had for a thousand years believed in Christ. This is what he said: Is it possible to dismiss Christ and everything which he brought into the annals of the human being? Of course it is possible. The human being is free. The human being can say to God, "No." The human being can say to Christ, "No." But the critical question is: Should he? And in the name of what "should" he? With what argument, what reasoning, what value held by the will or the heart does one bring oneself, one's loved ones, one's countrymen and nation to reject, to say "no" to Him with whom we have all lived for one thousand years? He who formed the basis of our identity and has Himself remained its basis ever since. . . . As a bishop does in the sacrament of Confirmation so do I today extend my hands in that apostolic gesture over all who are gathered here today, my compatriots. And so I speak for Christ himself: "Receive the Holy Spirit!" I speak too for St. Paul: "Do not quench the Spirit!" I speak again for St. Paul: "Do not grieve the Spirit of God!" You must be strong, my brothers and sisters! You must be strong with the strength that faith gives! You must be strong with the strength of faith! You must be faithful! You need this strength today more than any other period of our history. . . . You must be strong with love, which is stronger than death. . . . When we are strong with the Spirit of God, we are also strong with the faith of man. . . . There is therefore no need to fear. . . . So . . . I beg you: Never lose your trust, do not be defeated, do not be discouraged. . . . Always seek spiritual power from Him from whom countless generations of our fathers and mothers have found it. Never detach yourselves from Him. Never lose your spiritual freedom. They went home from that field a changed country. After that mass they would never be the same. What John Paul did in the Blonie field was both a departure from his original comments in Poland and an extension of them. In his first comments he said: God sees one unity of Europe, he does not see East and West divided by a gash in the soil. In this way he "divided the dividers" from God's view of history. But in the Blonie field he extended his message. He called down the Holy Spirit--as the Vicar of Christ and successor to Peter, he called down God--to fill the people of Poland, to "confirm" their place in history and their ancient choice of Christ, to confirm as it were that their history was real and right and unchangeable--even unchangeable by communists. So it was a redeclaration of the Polish spirit, which is a free spirit. And those who were there went home a different people, a people who saw themselves differently, not as victims of history but as strugglers for Christ. Another crucial thing happened, after the mass was over. Everyone who was there went home and turned on the news that night to see the pictures of the incredible crowd and the incredible pope. But state-controlled TV did not show the crowds. They did a brief report that showed a shot of the pope standing and speaking for a second or two. State television did not acknowledge or admit what a phenomenon John Paul's visit was, or what it had unleashed. The people who had been at the mass could compare the reality they had witnessed with their own eyes with the propaganda their media reported. They could see the discrepancy. This left the people of Poland able to say at once and together, definitively, with no room for argument: It's all lies. Everything this government says is a lie. Everything it is is a lie. Whatever legitimacy the government could pretend to, it began to lose. One by one the people of Poland said to themselves, or for themselves within themselves: It is over. And when 10 million Poles said that to themselves, it was over in Poland. And when it was over in Poland, it was over in Eastern Europe. And when it was over in Eastern Europe, it was over in the Soviet Union. And when it was over in the Soviet Union, well, it was over. All of this was summed up by a Polish publisher and intellectual named Jerzy Turowicz, who had known Karol Wojtyla when they were young men together, and who had gone on to be a supporter of Solidarity and member of Poland's first postcommunist government. Mr. Turowicz, remembering the Blonie field and the Pope's visit, told Ray Flynn, at the time U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, "Historians say World War II ended in 1945. Maybe in the rest of the world, but not in Poland. They say communism fell in 1989. Not in Poland. World War II and communism both ended in Poland at the same time--in 1979, when John Paul II came home." And now he is dead. It is fitting and not at all surprising that Rome, to its shock, has been overwhelmed with millions of people come to see him for the last time. The line to view his body in St. Peter's stretched more than a mile. His funeral tomorrow will be witnessed by an expected two billion people, the biggest television event in history. And no one, in Poland or elsewhere, will be able to edit the tape to hide what is happening. John Paul gave us what may be the transcendent public spiritual moment of the 20th century. "We want God." The greatest and most authentic cry of the human heart. They say he asked that his heart be removed from his body and buried in Poland. That sounds right, and I hope it's true. They'd better get a big box. >> _____________ kairosfocus
F/N: Apparently AF is both unaware that to construct quantum theory, physicists have had to implicitly rely on the classical laws of thought every step of the way, AND that in the above he routinely makes exactly the sort of { A | NOT-A } distinctions he is trying to scant. For the second, I will leave of the obvious part that textual symbols directly rely on such. Instead, let us observe:
[AF:] At the scale of elementary particles, the universe is fuzzy. At the scale of Large bodies like the conglomeration of elementary particles we refer to as Jupiter, the universe is fuzzy. Billiard balls – and our perception of them – are not necessarily a good general example of how the universe is.
See the problem, AF? If you don't let me cite for you Aristotle, in Metaphysics 1011b:
. . . if it is impossible at the same time to affirm and deny a thing truly, it is also impossible for contraries to apply to a thing at the same time; either both must apply in a modified sense, or one in a modified sense and the other absolutely. Nor indeed can there be any intermediate between contrary statements, but of one thing we must either assert or deny one thing, whatever it may be. This will be plain if we first define truth and falsehood. To say that what is is not, or that what is not is, is false; but to say that what is is, and what is not is not, is true; and therefore also he who says that a thing is or is not will say either what is true or what is false.
Let that illustrate just how inescapable the act of recognising distinctions is, and how what follows from that is equally foundational. In order to try to deny the first principles of right reason, right there in your attempted denial, you had to make repeated use of the same principles. As in, self referential incoherence and reduction thereby to absurdity. Which should have been patent, indeed that is part of why these laws are self-evident. Not only do we see that they do and must hold once we have understanding, but attempted denial ends rapidly in incoherence and obvious absurdity. As to resort to mockery and ridicule on the part of too many objectors, I think a certain wise one has aptly put it: "the laughter of a fool is as the crackling of thorns under a pot." And, just as temporary. Playing the red herring dragged away to a strawman caricature, then soaked in ad hominems and set alight for the delectation of those who enjoy malicious mockery game may feel like great fun to those with a trace of cruelty and that smugness that imagines that those on the other side MUST be only one or more of: ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. But it is based on patent fallacies and leads nowhere positive. As those bewitched by Alinskyite nihilistic tactics will soon enough find out. And oh yes, don't forget, the Christian Faith has already seen off a major collapse of civilisation and ensuing age of chaos. The same cannot be said for scientistic, radically secularist, evolutionary materialist secular humanism and its fellow travellers. Where also, precisely the failure of the spirit had a lot to do with the collapse of Communism, starting with the national revival kindled in Poland from the turn of the 1980's by the return for a visit by one certain Karol Wojtyla, aka John Paul II, The Great. KF kairosfocus
SB: Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation. So, obviously there is no conflict between the creation and the law. RD
The answer is evident, but I’m afraid not in the way you’d like it to be: Either the Law of Conservation holds without exception, or it does not. Mass/energy being created ex nihilo represents an exception to this Law. You assert that mass/energy was created by something. Therefore, your assertion implies that there is an exception to the Law of Conservation.
This is an egregious logical error. I guess I should not wait for a reader to correct you. “Without exception” does not mean “existed for all eternity.” The Law of Conservation cannot apply to a universe that has yet to come into existence, and it can only exist if brought into existence. So bringing it into existence does not violate it. As usual, you are misusing words, such as “without exception,” trying to make it convey the sense of an eternal law. StephenB
RD
You have not responded to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all.
The Law of Causality is implicit in the Law of Non-Contradiction. The purpose for doing the derivation was to make explicit that which was implicit and show why that must be the case. Your response to that derivation was to claim that it is illogical on the grounds that it has the receiver of existence "doing something." I have already demonstrated that your claim to that effect is false and indicated why it is false, namely that it is the giver of existence that is doing something, not the receiver. So far, you have not been willing to address that point. StephenB
SB: You keep saying that to “receive” existence is to do something. As I have pointed out numerous times that simply isn’t true. If the Creator of existence gives it, then obviously it is the act of giving that is the action, not the reception. To receive existence is clearly not to do anything. RDF: I’ve already agreed to disagree on this point. You never really engaged the argument at all. Only the giver of existence is doing something. The receiver of existence is doing nothing. There really isn't any question about what that means. Nevertheless, your whole house of cards is based on that false and illogical claim that the receiver of existence is doing something. So, rather than address the argument on its merits, you first try to use a little fuzzy logic, and when I show you why it is fuzzy, you simply disengage rather then deal with the refutation. StephenB
SB: Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation. So, obviously there is no conflict between the creation and the law.
The answer is evident, but I’m afraid not in the way you’d like it to be: Either the Law of Conservation holds without exception, or it does not. Mass/energy being created ex nihilo represents an exception to this Law. You assert that mass/energy was created by something. Therefore, your assertion implies that there is an exception to the Law of Conservation.
Meaning no unkindness, but I don't think it is even necessary for me to take that apart. I am sure than any of our readers can do it. Let's wait and find out. StephenB
RD
You can’t use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason – you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept.
As a general rule, that is true. Logic alone is very limited. It's rules apply to the real world, but without observation, you can't get very far. That is exactly why I reject Anselm's purely logical arguments for the existence of God. They are based solely on logic. That is why they don't work. On the other hand, I do accept Aquinas' proofs because they are based on both logic and observation. You mistakenly associate me with Anselm because you think that arguing for self-evident truths is tantamount to arguing for the sufficiency of logic. Both you and scordova labor under that misconception. I don't think there are more than half a dozen self-evident truths that qualify as knock-down drag out non-negotiable rules of reason. On the other hand, without these rules, you can do nothing. It is the old necessary but not sufficient syndrome. I understand that, except in a few cases, the rules of logic are not totally sufficient. The problem is that you don't think they are rules at all or that they are necessary or self-evident or certain. If they are not certain, they are useless. The intellectual life is built on a rock, not quicksand. Accordingly, you are certain that there is no certainly. Your whole philosophy is self-refuting, as is scordovas. What you and he have in common is that both of your reject reason's rules; you do it in the name of hyperskepticism; he does it in the name of fideism. Both represent intellectual suicide and, interestingly, the death of faith as well. StephenB
Ah yes, and one more thing you have not responded to: You can’t use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason – you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. RDFish
Hi StephenB,
Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation. So, obviously there is no conflict between the creation and the law.
The answer is evident, but I'm afraid not in the way you'd like it to be: Either the Law of Conservation holds without exception, or it does not. Mass/energy being created ex nihilo represents an exception to this Law. You assert that mass/energy was created by something. Therefore, your assertion implies that there is an exception to the Law of Conservation. All of our scientific laws - conservation, causality, and so on - break down outside the context of our experience, and that is why we cannot try to extrapolate from our understanding of everyday life to these metaphysical questions.
Our empirical knowledge of this or that piece of wood (the particular) is sense knowledge; our understanding of wood’s nature or essence (the universal) is intellectual knowledge. It is through intellectual knowledge that we understand the nature of wood and what all instances of it have in common.
Most people would call this "empirical" knowledge, to differentiate it from our knowledge of mathematics and logic, which would be self-evident knowledge.
It is the same with metal. It is through intellectual knowledge, not sense knowledge, that we know that metal is different from wood. We don’t get that from observing this or that piece of wood. Our knowledge of wood or metal begins with sense experience as we experience the particular, but our intellectual knowledge of wood or metal comes from the action of our intellectual faculty that grasps the universal nature of wood, which is not empirical.
Ok, let's agree to disagree on this one too. Here, you say that knowledge which we gain by generalizing from our experience is not empirical, and I say that is precisely what "empirical knowledge" means.
Swans and chairs are universals; this swan and this chair are particulars. The former is representative of intellectual knowledge; the latter is representative of sense knowledge. The Law of Non-Contradiction refers to universals or essences—intellectual knowledge. A thing (what it is) cannot also be something else (another what).
You have simply ignored the point: The process of identifying universals is an empirically-based process, and there are no rules we can use in order to objectively identify these universals. If you attempted to answer my questions about swans and chairs, we would all see that no matter what you answered, your answers would be quite without logical rationale.
You keep saying that to “receive” existence is to do something. As I have pointed out numerous times that simply isn’t true. If the Creator of existence gives it, then obviously it is the act of giving that is the action, not the reception. To receive existence is clearly not to do anything.
I've already agreed to disagree on this point. You have failed to respond to my other argument which demonstrates that causality does not derive from the LNC, which is that the LNC does not entail that anything causes anything. As far as the LNC is concerned, there might be no causality at all in the world - what we observe is only constant conjunction. (And for your conception of causality, which apparently is irrespective of time and space, we can't even observe these conjunctions!!!) Here's a nice summary of the points we clearly disagree on: You say ex nihilo creation of mass/energy doesn't violate the Law of Conservation (which prohibits ex nihilo creation of mass/energy); I disagree. You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not "empirical"; I disagree. You say that causes do not have to precede effects in order to be an example of a cause-effect relationship as we understand it; I disagree. You do not agree that saying "X receives existence from Y" is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree. And here are the points where we haven't yet clarified our disagreement: You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. You have not responded to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD
You didn’t respond to my point regarding the creation of mass/energy violating conservation laws.
Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation. So, obviously there is no conflict between the creation and the law. Of course, bornagain 77 has provided more evidence about the true nature of that law, which calls into question some of your assumptions about it. Did your study that information?
You didn’t respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of our knowledge of wood and metal.
I will have to be brief. Our empirical knowledge of this or that piece of wood (the particular) is sense knowledge; our understanding of wood's nature or essence (the universal) is intellectual knowledge. It is through intellectual knowledge that we understand the nature of wood and what all instances of it have in common. It is the same with metal. It is through intellectual knowledge, not sense knowledge, that we know that metal is different from wood. We don't get that from observing this or that piece of wood. Our knowledge of wood or metal begins with sense experience as we experience the particular, but our intellectual knowledge of wood or metal comes from the action of our intellectual faculty that grasps the universal nature of wood, which is not empirical.
You didn’t respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of categorizing types (swans, chairs)
Swans and chairs are universals; this swan and this chair are particulars. The former is representative of intellectual knowledge; the latter is representative of sense knowledge. The Law of Non-Contradiction refers to universals or essences---intellectual knowledge. A thing (what it is) cannot also be something else (another what). Meanwhile, when you claim that I say a non-existent thing can “do” something, you are mis-representing my argument and attacking a strawman. You misrepresent the argument and then argue against the misrepresentation. You keep saying that to “receive” existence is to do something. As I have pointed out numerous times that simply isn’t true. If the Creator of existence gives it, then obviously it is the act of giving that is the action, not the reception. To receive existence is clearly not to do anything. However, when I bring this up, you say that you don’t know what it means to "give" existence. Is that because in knowing what the act of giving means you would also know that it cannot be the receiver of the gift that is "doing something," invalidating your false claims to the contrary? A more recent misrepresentation was your insinuation that because I say that all knowledge is empirical, I am also saying that no knowledge is empirical, which would be ridiculous. So, please be careful with these attributions. StephenB
SB, I forgot one point that you haven't responded to - probably the most important one: You can’t use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason – you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Alan! Thanks very much for your remarks and the link to the hat-tip on TSZ. Very nice! By the way, we've "met" many times before. RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
RDF: But if you are willing, let’s dial back the ad hominems and snark and try our best to argue in good faith and to the best of our ability, ok? SB: This is another example of your intellectual dishonesty. SB: RD, I am going to revise my comment @451
Thank you, Stephen! It really is so much better when we stick to the debate and not let it devolve into a playground shouting match, right? You responded to my point regarding causality outside of time. Likewise, I assume, you might consider effects that violate local realism to be causal. Well, I've been careful to use phrases like causality as we understand it; I don't think the sort of causality you are talking about makes sense to us at all. In my view, if the cause does not precede the effect, or the cause and effect are not connected in time and space, then it does not represent a cause-effect relationship. If your tire went flat, then some time later you drove over a nail, would you really infer that the nail caused the tire to go flat? Or, if I ran over a nail in New York and your tire went flat in Los Angeles, would you consider that to be a causal relationship. (The anti-realism of QM is so weird I can't even think of a good illustration!) Ultimately, all of our understanding presupposes fundamental categories such as causality, locality, realism, and - yes - the Rules of Reason. We can't disregard these concepts and still claim to have an understanding of anything. Anyway, thanks for your response - let's agree to disagree about the fact that causes do not have to precede effects. Here are some of the remaining points: You didn't respond to my point regarding the creation of mass/energy violating conservation laws. You didn't respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of our knowledge of wood and metal. You didn't respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of categorizing types (swans, chairs) You didn't respond to my point regarding how causality does not derive from the LNC, because the LNC does not entail that anything is caused at all. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Alan Fox:
It’s remarks like this that earn you ridicule.
All of your trope earn you ridicule, Alan.
Your lack of self-awareness is extraordinary!
Yes Alan your lack of integrity and self-awareness are extraordinary. After 8 years of joining this debate and you still don't know a damn thing about it. It's as if you think that your willful ignorance means something. BTW materialism cannot explain how the universe came to be the way it is nor why it behaves the way it does. Joe
Oops S/B
Considering a bright red ball on a table, A, what is your view on the partition of the world.
At the scale of elementary particles, the universe is fuzzy. At the scale of Large bodies like the conglomeration of elementary particles we refer to as Jupiter, the universe is fuzzy. Billiard balls – and our perception of them – are not necessarily a good general example of how the universe is.
But just as happened twenty odd years ago, the system is crumbling before our eyes due to its cracked foundations.
It’s remarks like this that earn you ridicule. Your lack of self-awareness is extraordinary! Alan Fox
Considering a bright red ball on a table, A, what is your view on the partition of the world.
At the scale of elementary particles, the universe is fuzzy. At the scale of Large bodies like the conglomeration of elementary particles we refer to as Jupiter, the universe is fuzzy. Billiard balls - and our perception of them - are not necessarily a good general example of how the universe is. But just as happened twenty odd years ago, the system is crumbling before our eyes due to its cracked foundations. It's remarks like this that earn you ridicule. Your lack of self-awareness is extraordinary! Alan Fox
AF: The above is an example of a cheap one liner, and reminds me of the stunt you, RDH and OM were involved in some time ago that -- never mind how EL has been pretending in the teeth of patent facts -- I was invidiously associated with Nazism on a matter not directly related to the ID discussion. (Where, it was and is patent if one moves beyond the politically correct echo chambers of our time, that many have raised principle based concerns on the underlying matter. Cf. here and here on Gessen's telling admission on a matter literally foundational to stable civilisation, as well as, e.g. here on issues tied to freedom of conscience and dangerous court precedents. At this stage, I don't expect you or your ilk to give a hoot about duties of care to sobering facts and issues (to your shame), but I am speaking for record. That should suffice to show why I have a very low estimation of the credibility, substance and civility of TSZ along with the rest of the penumbra of hostile sites. When I see positive evidence of concern to be truthful, fair and civil, I would adjust such an estimate, but on track record sustained for too long, I am not holding my breath.) In short, you and your ilk, with all due respect, have no credibility to speak dismissively on serious matters. So, it seems you need to justify your assertions. Just what hole is SB in, just why? Per comparative difficulties on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, where do serious alternatives come out? What is the balance on the merits? Considering a bright red ball on a table, A, what is your view on the partition of the world W = { A | NOT-A } Following from that, on the existence of A, what is your response to the question, why is A there? Thence, the principles of cause and effect and the possibilities of contingent and necessary beings. Thereafter, implications for worldviews. Or, is it that you are wedded to an ideology that rejects or selectively ignores first principles of right reason and lacks clarity on pivotal, worldview foundational concepts? Are you, for instance, willing to assert that causality is wedded to temporality rather than broader contingency -- dependence on on/off enabling factors? In that case, kindly address the implications of the credible fact that our observed cosmos has a beginning and more broadly (think fine tuning) is contingent. I would put it to you that our contingent world implies a necessary being at the root of reality. Further, that the evident fine tuning behind the possibility of C-chemistry aqueous medium cell based life makes purpose and thus design a best explanation. Yet further, our obvious intuition that we have rights entailing binding duties of care makes it clear that we are under moral government. Put together, the compellingly best explanation of such a world -- note, I am explicitly discussing worldviews here -- is that we are the result of the creative action of an inherently good, knowledgeable and skilled agent who is also a necessary being capable of designing and building a cosmos (even, if one reverts to multiverse speculations) . . . for which the current observational warrant is nil so this is phil not sci). I put it to you, that this cluster of worldview inferences is threatening to adherents of a common ideology in our day, which can be described as evolutionary materialist, often scientistic, secular humanism, and also for those wedded to various accommodations to that system. I further put it to you that adherents have rigged the matter, by gerrymandering evidence and even definitions such as science and principles of logic. Since much of that is on matters that are self-evident, they have ended in patent absurdities clung to for ideological reasons. But just as happened twenty odd years ago, the system is crumbling before our eyes due to its cracked foundations. For record, GEM of TKI kairosfocus
So Alan Fox is also relegated to being a cheerleader. You and Richie Hughes make a good cheering team, Alan. Joe
I'm not the only one impressed with the patient and irrepressibly good-natured comments of RDFish. I endorse Mark's invitation. Stephen, I'm sure you have heard the expression 'when in a hole, stop digging'. I'm also sure you'll take no notice of me, so, carry on! :) Alan Fox
RD, I am going to revise my comment @451 and simply say that you have not, in this case, accurately reported what was said. Kairosfocus alluded to it more than once, and I specifically made the point @351: RD: "The concept of causality is connected to the concept of time: The cause must temporally precede the effect in a cause-effect relationship. But how can there be a cause that temporally precedes the beginning of time?" SB: "Causality is not necessarily related to time. One can argue that a thing is contingent and therefore dependent on another cause, independent of any arguments about time. That is why Aquinas could assume arguendo that the universe was eternal and still argue for the existence of God as the First Cause." So, clearly, I have covered this ground and kairosfocus has addressed it as well. That means, of course, that your claim that I didn't address it if false. Nevertheless, I only corrected you once, and not several times. So, it is possible that, given your proclivity to ignore correctives, your misrepresentation was, in this case, done inadvertently. I will put aside other misrepresentations for another time. StephenB
RD
You didn’t respond to my point regarding causality not be applicable outside of spacetime.
This is another example of your intellectual dishonesty. I have responded to that false argument several times. I explained that causality is applicable outside of time because anything that is contingent, that is, dependent on something else, is subject to causality. I even gave an example. Time can be, but is not necessarily, a factor. If you had made this mistake one time, I could understand it, but it has happened several times. You simply ignore correctives and continue with your mindless talking points. This is not a good basis for dialogue. StephenB
Hi StephenB, You didn't respond to my point regarding the creation of mass/energy violating conservation laws. You didn't respond to my point regarding causality not be applicable outside of spacetime. You didn't respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of our knowledge of wood and metal. You didn't respond to my points regarding the empirical nature of categorizing types (swans, chairs) You won't accept that your use of existence as a predicate violates logic, and devote your entire post to saying that. Ok then, fine! I'll just demolish your LNC argument in another way, and then perhaps you'll be done! :-) Here is your original argument which says that the Law of Causality is self-evident and can be derived from the Law of Non-contradiction:
An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. It can either receive being from itself or from something else. It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else. Thus, its existence depends on a cause. The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other.
I believe your argument is specious, because you are comparing something that exists with something that doesn't exist. You disagree; fine. Here's another way to see your argument fails: 1) The Law of Causality is Either True or False 2) If the LoC is true, then everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 3) If the LoC is false, then not everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 4) Therefore, if something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused. Yes of course, you'll find things popping into existence uncaused quite an absurd idea, but other people find your idea of an eternal uncaused cause equally absurd. The point is, you cannot derive the Law of Causality from the Law of Non-contradiction, because if the Law of Causality is false, then things can be neither self-caused nor other-caused. They can be uncaused.
I remind you that you are misrepresenting the truth by avoiding straight talk and mischievously moving around symbolic x’s in inappropriate and misleading ways and and you say that you have been trying to make that point all along that we ought to use natural language.
My predicate logic was without error and not misleading at all; you just apparently aren't familiar with it. That's OK - it's not the point. I wasn't responding to your suggestion that we should use natural language exclusively (it's fine if we do, whatever you'd like). Rather, I was responding to your point about the difficulty in mapping natural language to logic:
SB: You have to make allowances for the various uses of language before you start using predicate logic or truth tables or anything else that requires absolute precision and faithful representation.
This is the smartest thing you've written so far. Seriously - you are absolutely correct about this, and it is of vital importance to much of what we've discussed. You can't use logic to answer important questions about the world for this exact reason - you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept.
What must it be like to live in the Twilight Zone, I wonder?
Wouldn't know. How is it in high school? ;-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
SB: To say that X receives existence is not to say that X is doing something. That would make it a CAUSE. RDF: No, you didn’t say it was causing something, you said it was receiving something. But it can’t receive anything if it doesn’t exist. SB: No, YOU said it was DOING something, which is the same as causing something. I said that it wasn’t doing anything because it was an EFFECT. To receive existence is not to do anything. It is to be the EFFECT of a CAUSE. SB: To say that X receives existence is exactly the same thing as saying that X was brought into existence. If you are going to use predicate logic, you have to express X “receives” as an EFFECT or else you have to rearrange things in an equivalent way.
To say “X receives existence”, the subject of that statement is “X”, and the predicate is “receives existence”. In other words, X is doing something – viz. receiving something – which it can’t do, because there is no X to receive existence or anything else.
No, X is not doing something. To receive existence is not to do anything, as I have told you five times. You are misusing the language by taking an active verb that represents a passive experience and characterizing it as an active experience. You must analyze the language and represent it fairly before attempting to use symbols. Misused symbols mean nothing. You are trying to characterize an effect (“receive”) as a cause. There is no contradiction. Your set up does not, as I have said so many times, capture the meaning of what is being said.
Anselm tried to compare a God who did not exist with a God who did exist. Kant pointed out that you can’t compare a God who does not exist to anything, because something that does not exist is not “the same thing minus existence” – it is simply nothing at all
I care not a whit what Anselm or Kant said about some other subject.
Making exactly the same mistake, you are trying to say that “the X that does not exist” is the same thing as the X that does exist, except it hasn’t received its existence yet. Same mistake as Anselm.
I am not making the mistake, you are. And your references are irrelevant. SB:You have to make allowances for the various uses of language before you start using predicate logic or truth tables or anything else that requires absolute precision and faithful representation. Let’s just use natural language so that no one tries to stack the deck. OK? RDF:Yes, Stephen, this is a very, very, very good point! An incredibly important and true thing to say! I have been trying to make this point since we first started talking! Truly, you are a piece of work. I remind you that you are misrepresenting the truth by avoiding straight talk and mischievously moving around symbolic x’s in inappropriate and misleading ways and and you say that you have been trying to make that point all along that we ought to use natural language. What must it be like to live in the Twilight Zone, I wonder? Since the remainder of your post contains equally misleading information, I will not bother to respond to it. StephenB
'1) Law of Conservation: Mass/energy cannot be created.' caveat being,,, cannot be created By any known material means! but let's take a closer look at a photon: a ‘uncollapsed’ photon, in its quantum wave state, is mathematically defined as ‘infinite’ information: Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Thus every time we see (observe) a single photon of ‘material’ reality we are actually seeing just a single bit of information that was originally created from a very specific set of infinite information that was known by the consciousness that preceded material reality. i.e. information known only by the infinite Mind of omniscient God! Job 38:19-20 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?” Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 “When I consider what marvelous things men have understood, what he has inquired into and contrived, I know only too clearly that the human mind is a work of God, and one of the most excellent.” Yet the potential of the human mind “… is separated from the Divine knowledge by an infinite interval.” (Poupard, Cardinal Paul. Galileo Galilei. Pittsburgh: Duquesne University Press, 1983, p. 101.) etc.. etc.. etc.. bornagain77
Hi StephenB,
RDF: If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics. SB: I don’t understand why that would be the case. RDF: If you don’t understand why a claim that mass/energy is created contradicts this law, you must have something in mind which obviates the contradiction....Well, rather than me speculating, why don’t you just explain it? SB: You want me to explain your claim? That’s pretty bizarre, don’t you think?
Again, the Law of Conservation directly contradicts what you said. Look: 1) Law of Conservation: Mass/energy cannot be created. 2) SB: Mass/energy can be created SB: No, there is no violation at all! Perfectly consistent! I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you had some reason why the obvious contradiction doesn't hold.
You said that the Law of Causality violates conservation. I am asking you to explain why you think that it does. I can’t imagine how it is possible. In fact, I know that it is not possible. But I can’t refute your argument until you make one.
It is not the Law of Causality, but rather the creation of mass/energy, that contradicts conservation. Read your quotes above please: I said "If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics." and you said "I don’t understand why that would be the case."
RDF: Rather, like the vast majority of what we know, it [knowledge of steel, wood, etc] comes from our interactions with the world. In other words, from our empirical knowledge. SB: Empirically-based conclusions are always based on higher and lower degrees of probability. Your knowledge that a steel pipe cannot reproduce is not of that kind.
Yes, it is. There is such a high probability that this is the case that it is beyond all reasonable doubt.
We have no experience of it or any empirical verification of it,
RIGHT! And that is why we say it is empirical knowledge.
...nor do we need it.
Huh? How would anyone know what "wood" or "steel" is without any empirical knowledge? These things are not logical axioms, they are composite physical materials found in the world!
Remember, a self-evident truth can never be demonstrated or verified. It is the means by which we demonstrate and verify other things.
The particular amount that wood expands, or the behavior of steel - these are not self-evident truths. Unless you knew from experience what "wood" and "steel" are, you would have no way of knowing if these things were true or false.
If there were no self-evident truths, there would be no demonstrations of any kind.
Yes of course we have always agreed on this. You apparently make the mistake of thinking that all knowledge is self-evident!
You have already acknowledged that we can have 100% certain that such a scenario is impossible. (Recall that you once said that we can have that kind of certainty about nothing.)
There is no such thing as 100% absolute certainty, because epistemology is unsolved. For example, our minds might be unreliable, and there would be no way for us to know that.
SB: By that standard, the big bang would violate conservation.” RDF: Well yes, of course! The standard response from physicists to this observation is that the scientific theory of the Big Bang does not address the actual moment that the universe begins; rather, it describes the evolution of the universe from that moment onward. At the initial moment, since there is no space and no time, our empirical scientific laws cannot be applied. SB: Time has nothing to do with the fact that all contingent beings, large or small, require a cause.
So you are saying that our concept of cause makes sense without any reference to time? In other words, you don't think that a cause must be temporally prior to the effect in a cause-effect relationship?
We both agree that time, space, and matter “began to exist.” The Law of Causation has nothing to say about how they came to exist, only that, if they did, something else had to bring them into existence.
Again, the phrase "X began to exist" means this: At time T0, X does not exist, and at later time T1, X does exist. But if T0 does not exist then this statement is meaningless. That is the case if the cause of the universe is outside of spacetime.
To say that X receives existence is not to say that X is doing something. That would make it a CAUSE.
No, you didn't say it was causing something, you said it was receiving something. But it can't receive anything if it doesn't exist.
To say that X receives existence is exactly the same thing as saying that X was brought into existence. If you are going to use predicate logic, you have to express X “receives” as an EFFECT or else you have to rearrange things in an equivalent way.
To say "X receives existence", the subject of that statement is "X", and the predicate is "receives existence". In other words, X is doing something - viz. receiving something - which it can't do, because there is no X to receive existence or anything else.
You are trying to characterize an effect (“receive”) as a cause. That is why your formulation doesn’t work and finds a contradiction that isn’t there. Your set up does not, as I have said so many times, capture the meaning of what is being said.
Anselm tried to compare a God who did not exist with a God who did exist. Kant pointed out that you can't compare a God who does not exist to anything, because something that does not exist is not "the same thing minus existence" - it is simply nothing at all. Making exactly the same mistake, you are trying to say that "the X that does not exist" is the same thing as the X that does exist, except it hasn't received its existence yet. Same mistake as Anselm.
You have to make allowances for the various uses of language before you start using predicate logic or truth tables or anything else that requires absolute precision and faithful representation. Let’s just use natural language so that no one tries to stack the deck. OK?
Yes, Stephen, this is a very, very, very good point! An incredibly important and true thing to say! I have been trying to make this point since we first started talking! Questions in the real world cannot be answered by logic for the very reason you just explained. You cannot start with these logical "Rules of Reason" and from there decide how the universe began or how it got started or if quantum phenomena obey causality as we know it or if free will exists or how much wood can expand or... any of these questions! The problem is not with the logic - which we all agree is self-evident - the problem is with mapping between natural language and logic. If this is the only point we come to agree on I'll be happy! In any case, I did use natural language to make the same point regarding how causality can't be inferred from LNC, above.
With respect to the Law of Non-Contradiction, it’s important to understand how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. We know that a “thing” cannot be what it is and also be something else the same time and in the same way.
But surely you know that deciding exactly what constitutes one sort of thing is always contentious (think of biological species!). Is a black swan still a swan? How about one with no webbing between its toes? How about one that only weighs half a pound and can hover like a hummingbird?
In this context, we are concerned about “what” the thing is–its essence, its nature. In other words, we are saying that a thing’s nature or essence cannot also have another thing’s essence or nature. That is what the Law of Non-Contradiction means. If you think it means something else, then you have to explain where the contraction occurs if not in essences or natures.
Logic just doesn't help with these questions. What is the essence of a chair? Is a backless chair a chair? One with three legs? One with no legs? A boulder with a flat spot for your butt? Logic is perfectly neat, and the world is a messy place. The Rules of Reason do not allow us to answer questions about the world. We can't be 100% absolutely certain of anything. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi RD
A typical definition of the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy is this:
If you don’t understand why a claim that mass/energy is created contradicts this law, you must have something in mind which obviates the contradiction. Perhaps you’re thinking that supernatural agents can somehow circumvent this law without violating it? Or that the universe is not actually a closed system because God can create mass/energy outside of spacetime and then inject it into the universe? Or… Well, rather than me speculating, why don’t you just explain it?
You want me to explain your claim? That’s pretty bizarre, don’t you think? You said that the Law of Causality violates conservation. I am asking you to explain why you think that it does. I can’t imagine how it is possible. In fact, I know that it is not possible. But I can’t refute your argument until you make one.
No, none of that. Rather, like the vast majority of what we know, it comes from our interactions with the world. In other words, from our empirical knowledge.
Empirically-based conclusions are always based on higher and lower degrees of probability. Your knowledge that a steel pipe cannot reproduce is not of that kind. We have no experience of it or any empirical verification of it, nor do we need it. Remember, a self-evident truth can never be demonstrated or verified. It is the means by which we demonstrate and verify other things. If there were no self-evident truths, there would be no demonstrations of any kind. You have already acknowledged that we can have 100% certain that such a scenario is impossible. (Recall that you once said that we can have that kind of certainty about nothing.) Apodictic certainly that metal cannot reproduce does not come from evidence. It comes from the intellectual understanding of a self-evident truth—a cause cannot give to an effect something that it does not have to give. “SB: By that standard, the big bang would violate conservation.”
Well yes, of course! The standard response from physicists to this observation is that the scientific theory of the Big Bang does not address the actual moment that the universe begins; rather, it describes the evolution of the universe from that moment onward. At the initial moment, since there is no space and no time, our empirical scientific laws cannot be applied.
I think we have covered this before. Time has nothing to do with the fact that all contingent beings, large or small, require a cause. Causality is not an empirical scientific law; it is a self-evident truth that informs empirical scientific laws. We both agree that time, space, and matter “began to exist.” The Law of Causation has nothing to say about how they came to exist, only that, if they did, something else had to bring them into existence.
No, Stephen, I meant I don’t know what “God” means!!! But I won’t discuss this with you right now. If we clarify our differences on the current issues, we can discuss why I say that if you’d like.
Well, then we can simply change God to First Cause and continue on as sleek as ever. Do you know what I mean when I say the First Cause “gives existence.”
It is your stilted way of saying this that gets you in logical trouble. There is no “something” to receive the existence that you say God is “giving”! Rather, you should say “God created a star” or “God caused a star to come into being”. Otherwise, you are entailing a logical contradiction by saying that something non-existent did something, which is contradictory: There exists X such that X does not exist and X receives existence.
That is incorrect. To say that X receives existence is not to say that X is doing something. That would make it a CAUSE. To say that X receives existence is exactly the same thing as saying that X was brought into existence. If you are going to use predicate logic, you have to express X "receives" as an EFFECT or else you have to rearrange things in an equivalent way. You are trying to characterize an effect ("receive") as a cause. That is why your formulation doesn’t work and finds a contradiction that isn't there. Your set up does not, as I have said so many times, capture the meaning of what is being said. Sometimes passive events can be expressed in the active voice, and sometimes active events can be expressed in the passive voice. In this case, “receive” is an active verb that describes a passive event. You have to make allowances for the various uses of language before you start using predicate logic or truth tables or anything else that requires absolute precision and faithful representation. Let’s just use natural language so that no one tries to stack the deck. OK?
The only reason I thought it was worth talking about at all is to dissuade you from thinking that all of these real-world questions (“what are the properties of wood? how much can it expand?”) can be answered with objective, certain truths derived from principles of logic. This is the basic fault I find in your positions, and I’m trying to disabuse you of this error.
With respect to the Law of Non-Contradiction, it’s important to understand how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. We know that a “thing” cannot be what it is and also be something else the same time and in the same way. But what is it about that thing that defines the prohibition. We can’t just throw the word “thing” around without knowing what we are talking about. In this context, we are concerned about “what” the thing is--its essence, its nature. In other words, we are saying that a thing’s nature or essence cannot also have another thing’s essence or nature. That is what the Law of Non-Contradiction means. If you think it means something else, then you have to explain where the contraction occurs if not in essences or natures. StephenB
F/N 2: It does not at all seem incoherent that an agent can create, make, instantiate, whatever, that which that agent has previously conceived. To then say that that which was concept has now moved from potential to actual physical instantiation is obviously not incoherent, and since there is a patent continuity between the planned and the implemented it is reasonable to identify the two by that commonality. So, it seems further selectively hyperskeptical to speak as though giving X existence, is in effect nonsensical or even silly. Worse, with all due respect, the underlying subtext of subtle but persistent ridicule and contempt are unworthy. Kindly, deal with the matter on the merits rather than on implied personalities. Avoiding the sort of loaded terms of discussion used above several times to dismiss what SB has said and to pretend that he is ignorant would help. Similarly, it is false, misleading and dismissively denigratory to try to insert the suggestion that UD is a mere "echo chamber." The very exchanges in this thread patently show that it is not. But, there is a need for restraining incivility -- an unfortunately all too typical pattern of darwinist objector behaviour, fully manifest in the penumbra of outright hate sites that need not be named -- so that serious discussion on important but contentious matters can proceed. kairosfocus
F/N: In short, it seems that here we have a case of selective hyperskepticism, also coloured by an underlying dubiousness concerning common aspects of how agents think, deliberate, plan, decide and act towards purposes. To such, I gently suggest that if we cannot live apart from thinking in agent-specific ways, and so long as agents otherwise are possible, we ought not to think in such an inconsistent way. (I won't go into the pretence that God is a dubious or inconceivable concept, other than to note that the usual formerly used objection to the coherence of the concept, God, has long collapsed.) kairosfocus
RDF
And I would say that it is nonsensical to speak about the universe prior to its existence. We can’t talk coherently about what existed or didn’t exist prior to the creation of the universe, because that qualifier has no defined meaning in that context. Time started at the Big Bang, and there is simply nothing to be said about anything “before time”.
As long as something is possible even though not actual, it is reasonable to speak of it. (That is context for my possible worlds remarks above.) It is even reasonable to speak of something that is IMPOSSIBLE, like a Square Circle. Indeed, absent your arbitrary attempt to rule such out, that is a routine activity. As an excellent example, we often see children, thinking about their future, discussing their own children to be. Similarly, every time we use conditional logic to model or to plan or to think about the implications of hypotheticals (which often do not or even cannot exist) we are discussing, reasonably, things that are not. And such things that are not can so guide us that we use them to defeat even powerful things that are. That is, to plan reformation. Your position on this matter, with all due respect, falls apart on closer inspection. Next, ontological priority is mysterious but it is not such that we cannot think beyond the singularity. In this sense it makes sense to speak of what was "before" time, by way of imperfect but useful analogy. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB, Very good post! Thank you.
RD, our last exchange was very productive because I think it brings to light some of the most important assumptions that we both hold. If you don’t mind, I would like to explore some of the key elements, not for the sake of refuting or challenging, but solely for the sake of clarifying.
Excellent!
Liberals are attracted to Kant; conservatives are attracted to Aquinas. You can take my word for it.
I'm sure you're right, and yes I'm aware that there are criticisms of this argument of Kant's.
RDF: Mass/energy can’t be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist “receives existence”, this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation. SB: To the first point, a created human soul has no mass or energy.
You will not be surprised to hear that I am not aware that any of the properties of the "human soul" have been identified, so I can't comment on whether or not this statement is true (or even has a referent). If you'd like to claim that existence of human souls as a matter of faith, we can duly note that and move on.
To the second point, the universe prior to its existence had no mass or energy.
And I would say that it is nonsensical to speak about the universe prior to its existence. We can't talk coherently about what existed or didn't exist prior to the creation of the universe, because that qualifier has no defined meaning in that context. Time started at the Big Bang, and there is simply nothing to be said about anything "before time". Theologians sometimes deal with this by saying God acted outside of spacetime to create the universe, but this is different from saying God acted prior to spacetime. Importantly for our discussion, causality as we know it cannot be applied in a context outside of spacetime, because the concept of causality is necessarily tied to temporal order.
Both elements came into a state of existence from a state of non-existence.
These states were not ordered in time, and thus we cannot think of this as some sort of cause-effect event.
You are asking far more in that question than you may realize. We must define terms here into four distinct categories.
Good - I'm always in favor of defining our terms.
Here are my definitions. A natural action is a law-governed action of nature, such as a waterfall.
"Law-governed" meaning "fully determined by antecedent causes" I assume. OK.
I would define a supernatural action as one initiated by a supernatural being, such as God or an angel. I would define an “un-natural” act as one that violates human nature and the natural moral law.
OK. In my view then, per your definitions, nobody knows if there are supernatural actions, and while most people agree on the naturalness of most acts, there is still some significant disagreement (even among Christians) about what is natural.
How, then, would I define a human act that is not law-governed (natural), not supernatural, and not necessarily but possibly unnatural. I would call all human actions “Non-natural” or agency driven.
Ok, then in my view, per your definition, nobody knows if there are "agency-driven" acts either (this seems tantamount to the question of libertarianism).
RDF: If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics. SB: I don’t understand why that would be the case.
A typical definition of the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy is this:
Mass/Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The total amount of mass/energy in the universe never changes.
If you don't understand why a claim that mass/energy is created contradicts this law, you must have something in mind which obviates the contradiction. Perhaps you're thinking that supernatural agents can somehow circumvent this law without violating it? Or that the universe is not actually a closed system because God can create mass/energy outside of spacetime and then inject it into the universe? Or... Well, rather than me speculating, why don't you just explain it?
RDF: Tell me how logic defines the nature of wood, and how expansion violates this logically. SB: According to the Law of Identity, a thing is what it is and is not something else. In order to say that, we must know the nature (essence also) of the thing so that we can say that it cannot also have another nature (also essence).
Yes, agreed on all that.
Wood has an identity and a specific nature of its own.
I would say wood has a specific nature, but not really what we normally think of as "an identity", which is a term normally used for people. Anyway yes, wood has a specific nature that makes it wood.
It cannot also have the nature of water, metal, or plants.
Let's be careful here: It cannot have all the same characteristics of something else, but obviously many of the characteristics will be shared. In fact, wood contains water and is a part of a plant - that is its nature. Wood is a composite material.
Getting back to wood, it has a certain texture,...
Not really - different types of wood have very different textures. Compare redwood with balsa with oak with ironwood!
...is made of specific elements,
Again, while all wood contains carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and other elements, there is great variation in the elements contained (and their relative percentages) in various species of wood.
...and behaves a certain way.
And of course different wood types behave rather differently, as every woodworker knows!
Among other things, it takes in and releases moisture. To that extent, and to that extent only, it may experience miniscule changes in size.
How do you know how much change in size is physically possible? How can you be sure that there is not some unusual tree somewhere with wood that has very exotic properties, including a greater capacity for expansion? Surely just because one sort of wood expanded more than others, it could still be considered to be wood!
To say that a wooden splinter can expand to the size of a wood beam is to attribute to it a nature that it doesn’t have and is to say that it is something that it is not, violating the law of non-contradiction.
This would only be true if you provided a formal, logical description of the attributes of wood. But of course you can do no such thing. Instead, whatever we know about different sorts of wood comes from our physical encounters with various types of wood.
I think you are assuming here that all knowledge is empirical. That is one of the assumptions that I am challenging. All knowledge is not empirical.
I agree with you. Among non-empirical knowledge is our knowledge of logico-mathematical systems, and various sorts of properly basic beliefs.
I don’t need to conduct an empirical study on steel to know that it can’t reproduce. It simply isn’t in its nature to do so. Am I 100% certain of that? Yes. So are you. So is scordova. So is 5for.
Just because you haven't conducted a study doesn't mean our knowledge is not empirical! Yes, I do know that metal can't reproduce. I've never been told that, I've never read it, and I've never conducted a study that leads me to believe that. So how do I know it? Was I born with this knowledge? Is it a logico-mathematical truth like 1+2=3 or the pythagorean theorem? Did God tell me? No, none of that. Rather, like the vast majority of what we know, it comes from our interactions with the world. In other words, from our empirical knowledge.
RDF: Mass/energy can’t be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist “receives existence”, this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation. SB: By that standard, the big bang would violate conservation.
Well yes, of course! The standard response from physicists to this observation is that the scientific theory of the Big Bang does not address the actual moment that the universe begins; rather, it describes the evolution of the universe from that moment onward. At the initial moment, since there is no space and no time, our empirical scientific laws can not be applied.
Recall the Law of Identity (a thing is (it IS its essence [also its nature] what it is. I would say that this formulation more properly belongs to philosophy. But it you want to say that it is a function of physics to study its behavior, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but it is the philosopher that tells is WHAT wood is and defines its essence,
How can a philosopher tell us if bamboo is wood (as it says here http://www.bamboocreasian.com/services.html) or a grass (as it says here http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_bamboo_considered_a_grass)? No, philosophers have no special expertise in this area - it is squarely in the domain of botanists! These are scientific, empirical questions, not questions of logic. Philosophers don't decide which animals are chordates - biologists do. Philosophers don't understand what makes something steel instead of bronze - chemists do. And so on.
If you like, we can say that, according to the philosopher, it is logically impossible and according to the physicist, it is physically impossible, that’s OK, I guess, but that brings us back to my original point. IT is both logically and physically possible.
I am very willing to do anything to stop talking about this. Please, let us agree to disagree. The only reason I thought it was worth talking about at all is to dissuade you from thinking that all of these real-world questions ("what are the properties of wood? how much can it expand?") can be answered with objective, certain truths derived from principles of logic. This is the basic fault I find in your positions, and I'm trying to disabuse you of this error.
SB: I gather that you also mean that we cannot even say that the star “comes into existence” since that, too, would be predicating something about a non-existent star. RDF: No, we do indeed say that. In astrophysics, stars come into existence by ... SB: You are getting pretty far afield here. We are assuming in our example, that God simply made a star and we are examining that logic of that statement. Now you are presenting an argument about how nature produced a star so that you don’t have to account for an agent cause.
Wait a minute. You said I was objecting to saying that a start "comes into existence", and I replied with an example of a star coming into existence. My example was natural, but that same would be true if you said "God made the star and so it came into existence". There is nothing wrong with saying that: What I was objecting to was you saying "The non-existent star received existence from the accretion disk" OR "The non-existent star received existence from God". Both of these statements make the error of treating existence as a predicate.
So, let’s not do any goalpost moving. If God made the star, then the term “came into being” violates your “predicate” principle just as much as the term “Received existence,” since in both cases you are predicating something of an IT that, by your account, cannot logically be done.
See immediately above. Things can "come into being" or "come into existence", which is an idiom meaning that at one point in time it doesn't exist and the next point it does. There is no logical contradiction here: There exists X at time T1 such that it did not exist at prior time T0
After you quietly changed my premise, yes.
No, we just miscommunicated. The point had nothing to do with whether God or a natural process was responsible; it was about whether something that didn't exist "received existence" from something - either a natural or supernatural thing.
You simply removed the agent, God, and put autonomous nature in his place. First, you move the goalposts and then you take that as the new reality.
No, you misunderstand. We can stick with your example just fine: God created a star.
Let’s get back to our example. God created a star, which was my opening premise, and one that you didn’t object to.
Correct. There exists X such that X is a star and God created X. No problem.
RDF: I honestly don’t know what it means when you say “God gives existence” to something. I’m not being contrary or stubborn or anti-religious, I just really do not understand what this sentence means. SB: Well, that is a bit facile, don’t you think. You knew what “receiving” existence meant well enough to argue against it, but now, all of a sudden, you don’t know what “giving” existence means?
:-) No, Stephen, I meant I don't know what "God" means!!! But I won't discuss this with you right now. If we clarify our differences on the current issues, we can discuss why I say that if you'd like.
Here is the way it appears. If God gives existence, then something must receive it.
It is your stilted way of saying this that gets you in logical trouble. There is no "something" to receive the existence that you say God is "giving"! Rather, you should say "God created a star" or "God caused a star to come into being". Otherwise, you are entailing a logical contradiction by saying that something non-existent did something, which is contradictory: There exists X such that X does not exist and X receives existence.
So, to counter that point, you simply say that you don’t know what it means to give existence. Otherwise, your whole house of cards falls down.
I hope you are clear on this now: I know what it means to give something; I was saying I really didn't understand what you meant when God does something. Again, please let's defer talking about that.
It seems that you are using that ploy to avoid refutation.
We're really doing quite well in this discussion right now - please let's continue and try to give the most generous interpretations to each other, or simply ask for clarification, instead of resorting first to accusations of bad faith. Agreed? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDF, 436:
Mass/energy is different from matter. Matter is not actually not always conserved in physics, but mass/energy is. If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics.
At the point of origin, the cosmos is possible, not actual. The laws we study are those of the cosmos as a going concern, not beyond the veil. There is no good, empirically grounded reason to imagine that the physical universe of space-time and mass-energy we see is eternal, and every good reason to see that it had a definite beginning, marking it as contingent. The laws summarising regular patterns in that actualised contingent being, do not remove it from contingency. KF PS: 5F, I would suggest you take up another career than trying to psychoanalyse people you have not met, from scant evidence of comments. As it is, I am in no wise making desperate efforts on SB's behalf. What would preoccupy my affect just now is a sudden loss, which has nothing to do with SB. I did contribute a thought or two to help onlookers disentangle objections that misunderstand possible and necessary being, cause and more. kairosfocus
That last sentence about the wood's expansion should read, IT is both logically and physically [IM]possible, not possible. StephenB
RD, our last exchange was very productive because I think it brings to light some of the most important assumptions that we both hold. If you don't mind, I would like to explore some of the key elements, not for the sake of refuting or challenging, but solely for the sake of clarifying.
I explained how if something doesn’t exist, then it can’t do anything, including receive something. We went on like this for some time, and then I showed how Kant expressed the point formally, and how even Christian scholars generally accepted that he was correct.
That kind of thing usually breaks down along partisan lines. Generally, the more liberal minded theologians would buy into Kant's skepticism, but those in the conservative camp would reject it. Examples of the latter would be Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, J.P. Moreland, etc. It is the same with Catholics. Liberals are attracted to Kant; conservatives are attracted to Aquinas. You can take my word for it.
You are trying to use the very same reasoning to tie LoC to LNC, but it doesn’t work. Adding something about “potential existence” doesn’t help.
Well, let's stay tuned.
Mass/energy can’t be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist “receives existence”, this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation.
To the first point, a created human soul has no mass or energy. To the second point, the universe prior to its existence had no mass or energy. Both elements came into a state of existence from a state of non-existence. SB: The three cases are all different. The first is art, the second is nature, and the third implies ex-nilio creation. RDF: I consider human beings and our actions to be “natural”, don’t you? Are you saying we are “unnatural”? “Supernatural”? You are asking far more in that question than you may realize. We must define terms here into four distinct categories. Here are my definitions. A natural action is a law-governed action of nature, such as a waterfall. I would define a supernatural action as one initiated by a supernatural being, such as God or an angel. I would define an "un-natural" act as one that violates human nature and the natural moral law. How, then, would I define a human act that is not law-governed (natural), not supernatural, and not necessarily but possibly unnatural. I would call all human actions "Non-natural" or agency driven.
If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics.
I don't understand why that would be the case.
Tell me how logic defines the nature of wood, and how expansion violates this logically.
According to the Law of Identity, a thing is what it is and is not something else. In order to say that, we must know the nature (essence also) of the thing so that we can say that it cannot also have another nature (also essence) Wood has an identity and a specific nature of its own. It cannot also have the nature of water, metal, or plants. That is the significance of the Law of Non-Contradiction. Getting back to wood, it has a certain texture, is made of specific elements, and behaves a certain way. Among other things, it takes in and releases moisture. To that extent, and to that extent only, it may experience miniscule changes in size. To say that a wooden splinter can expand to the size of a wood beam is to attribute to it a nature that it doesn't have and is to say that it is something that it is not, violating the law of non-contradiction. It would be like saying that a piece of metal can reproduce. It simply is not in its nature to do so. To say so is to characterize metal as something other than what it is.
How do you know? Have you studied wood and can say with certainty that there is no wood that absorbs water and expands in this way?
I think you are assuming here that all knowledge is empirical. That is one of the assumptions that I am challenging. All knowledge is not empirical. I don't need to conduct an empirical study on steel to know that it can't reproduce. It simply isn't in its nature to do so. Am I 100% certain of that? Yes. So are you. So is scordova. So is 5for.
Mass/energy can’t be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist “receives existence”, this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation.
By that standard, the big bang would violate conservation.
I am claiming that the “nature of wood” is not a logical principle, but rather a collection of empirical facts that we have learned about wood through chemistry and physics. Thus, if wood does not act in this way, it is a matter of physics rather than logic.
Recall the Law of Identity (a thing is (it IS its essence [also its nature] what it is. I would say that this formulation more properly belongs to philosophy. But it you want to say that it is a function of physics to study its behavior, I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but it is the philosopher that tells is WHAT wood is and defines its essence, which is the essential element for the Law of NON-Contradiction. If you like, we can say that, according to the philosopher, it is logically impossible and according to the physicist, it is physically impossible, that's OK, I guess, but that brings us back to my original point. IT is both logically and physically possible.
The star either exists or not. If it exists, then it can’t receive existence. If it doesn’t exist, then it can’t do anything – including “receiving existence”
. I gather that you also mean that we cannot even say that the star “comes into existence” since that, too, would be predicating something about a non-existent star.
No, we do indeed say that. In astrophysics, stars come into existence by matter accretion driven by gravity, etc. At some point fusion begins and the pre-existing mass/energy is then in the form of a star. We say the star is “born” or “comes to exist” or whatever we say idiomatically, but this is what happens.
You are getting pretty far afield here. We are assuming in our example, that God simply made a star and we are examining that logic of that statement. Now you are presenting an argument about how nature produced a star so that you don't have to account for an agent cause. So, let's not do any goalpost moving. If God made the star, then the term "came into being" violates your "predicate" principle just as much as the term "Received existence," since in both cases you are predicating something of an IT that, by your account, cannot logically be done.
Nothing is brought into existence ex nihilo in this process, and before the star exists all of the mass/energy that ends up in the star already is in existence.
After you quietly changed my premise, yes. You simply removed the agent, God, and put autonomous nature in his place. First, you move the goalposts and then you take that as the new reality. Let's get back to our example. God created a star, which was my opening premise, and one that you didn't object to. "I gather that you also reject the first clause, that is, you reject the proposition that God can give existence to the star since there is no star in existence to receive that which is given."
I honestly don’t know what it means when you say “God gives existence” to something. I’m not being contrary or stubborn or anti-religious, I just really do not understand what this sentence means.
Well, that is a bit facile, don't you think. You knew what "receiving" existence meant well enough to argue against it, but now, all of a sudden, you don't know what "giving" existence means? Here is the way it appears. If God gives existence, then something must receive it. So, to counter that point, you simply say that you don't know what it means to give existence. Otherwise, your whole house of cards falls down. "How, then, would you use the English language to express the cause effect relationship between the giver of existence and the thing to which existence is given?"
In the case of the star, I gave a brief description above – but there was no conscious agent involved obviously.
Obviously, there is no conscious agent involved. You removed Him from the premise. Why you do that? It happens a lot.
A painter creates (or paints) a painting, a builder creates (or builds) a house, a cloud creates (or precipitates) raindrops, and so on – but these things are obvious and uncontroversial of course – they are instances of re-arranging pre-existing mass/energy.
Yes, I know. Let's get back to my example. "Or, are you simply saying that it is illogical to suppose that God could confer existence on anyone or anything?"
I can’t say if that is logical or illogical, because I don’t understand what you mean.
To confer existence on anything is, by definition, to create it ex-nilio. Anything else would simply be rearranging that which already exists. It's hard to believe that you don't know what that means. It seems that you are using that ploy to avoid refutation.
If you mean that mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this is utterly contrary to what we understand about reality, so I’d say we do not understand anything about that.
You said in the immediate paragraph above that you don't know what it means for God to confer existence on anything. Now you are saying that ex-nilio creation, which is the same thing, is contrary to what we understand about reality. Can you tell me which position is yours so that I can respond to it. StephenB
This is one of the things wrong with UD, one person (StephenB) blunders so far down a path of incoherence and no one says anything or "corrects" him. I am sure that just about everyone here can see where StephenB is going wrong but no one points it out. All you get is a damning by faint praise by SCordova and a desperate attempt by KF to find something tha makes sense in what StephenB is saying. Everyone else just sits by and lets him hang himself. That's why this is an echo chamber. You need to point out to your colleagues when they are going wrong even if you are on the same "side" as them. That way people learn and progress. 5for
Hi StephenB,
Let take a simple example: God creates a star. I say that [a] God gives existence to the star and [b] the star receives it.
The star did not exist before it existed.
You say that the second clause violates logic. In your view, the star cannot receive existence because we can predicate nothing of something that doesn’t exist.
The star either exists or not. If it exists, then it can't receive existence. If it doesn't exist, then it can't do anything - including "receiving existence".
I gather that you also mean that we cannot even say that the star “comes into existence” since that, too, would be predicating something about a non-existent star.
No, we do indeed say that. In astrophysics, stars come into existence by matter accretion driven by gravity, etc. At some point fusion begins and the pre-existing mass/energy is then in the form of a star. We say the star is "born" or "comes to exist" or whatever we say idiomatically, but this is what happens. Nothing is brought into existence ex nihilo in this process, and before the star exists all of the mass/energy that ends up in the star already is in existence.
I gather that you also reject the first clause, that is, you reject the proposition that God can give existence to the star since there is no star in existence to receive that which is given.
I honestly don't know what it means when you say "God gives existence" to something. I'm not being contrary or stubborn or anti-religious, I just really do not understand what this sentence means.
How, then, would you use the English language to express the cause effect relationship between the giver of existence and the thing to which existence is given?
In the case of the star, I gave a brief description above - but there was no conscious agent involved obviously. A painter creates (or paints) a painting, a builder creates (or builds) a house, a cloud creates (or precipitates) raindrops, and so on - but these things are obvious and uncontroversial of course - they are instances of re-arranging pre-existing mass/energy.
Or, are you simply saying that it is illogical to suppose that God could confer existence on anyone or anything?
I can't say if that is logical or illogical, because I don't understand what you mean. If you mean a conscious agent re-arranging pre-existing mass/energy into new configurations, then this presents no conceptual problem obviously (we do this all the time). If you mean an unconscious process in which pre-existing mass/energy is re-arranged, this also presents no problem. If you mean that mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this is utterly contrary to what we understand about reality, so I'd say we do not understand anything about that. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
The point of bringing up potential existence was to show you why the formulation was NOT contradictory and WHY your symbols were inappropriate.
But "symbols" have nothing to do with this. You explained several times how things that do not exist receieve existence from something else. I explained how if something doesn't exist, then it can't do anything, including receive something. We went on like this for some time, and then I showed how Kant expressed the point formally, and how even Christian scholars generally accepted that he was correct. You are trying to use the very same reasoning to tie LoC to LNC, but it doesn't work. Adding something about "potential existence" doesn't help.
Only those things that exist potentially can receive existence.
Things either exist, or they do not exist. If they exist, they cannot receieve existence. If they do not existence, then they can't do anything at all (including "receiving existence").
It has nothing at all to do with conservation. If you think it does, tell me why.
Mass/energy can't be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist "receives existence", this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation. Perhaps you would like to qualify what you are claiming, such as "non-existent things can receive existence, as long as the resulting thing is immaterial spirit", or perhaps "but only within the limits of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle" or something along those lines.
RDF: Are atoms potentially existing motorcycles? Are clouds potentially existing raindrops? At what point does a potentially existing mass actually have mass? SB: The three cases are all different. The first is art, the second is nature, and the third implies ex-nilio creation.
I consider human beings and our actions to be "natural", don't you? Are you saying we are "unnatural"? "Supernatural"?
I don’t know what potentially existing mass means, but potentially existing matter or energy could exist in the mind of the Creator and become actualized at the point of creation.
Mass/energy is different from matter. Matter is not actually not always conserved in physics, but mass/energy is. If mass/energy is created ex nihilo, then this violates the conservation law of physics.
No, it is not logically consistent because it violates the nature of wood.
Tell me how logic defines the nature of wood, and how expansion violates this logically.
Would doesn’t act like that under any circumstances. If it did, it wouldn’t be wood.
How do you know? Have you studied wood and can say with certainty that there is no wood that absorbs water and expands in this way?
[a] You can begin by telling me exactly why the Law of Causality violates the Law of Conservation.
Mass/energy can't be created or destroyed according to physics. When you say that something that does not exist "receives existence", this seems to imply that something (i.e. something with mass/energy) is created, which would violate conservation.
[b] Oh, and you also need to explain how a wood splinter can become a two-by-four beam without violating the nature of wood.
I am claiming that the "nature of wood" is not a logical principle, but rather a collection of empirical facts that we have learned about wood through chemistry and physics. Thus, if wood does not act in this way, it is a matter of physics rather than logic.
[c] also, you have not answered the question about how you would express the coming into existence of new life. Your offering “was born” does not fit the bill because it doesn’t address the coming to be of life or existence and is in the passive voice. What we need is an active verb the precedes the word life or existence. As in, “the offspring {verb} new life or existence.”
You are re-creating your error in demanding that we use "existence" as a predicate. Existence is not a property that is added or gained by something - it adds nothing to the essence of a thing, but rather only indicates that the thing in question occurs in reality. So I still claim I'm correct on these central points: 1) The LoC can't be shown to follow from the LNC by your argument involving non-existent things gaining existence 2) Knowledge can never be absolutely certain (because epistemology is not solved) 3) Logic cannot be formally mapped to abstract questions of existence, e.g. the origin of the universe, the nature of causality, the problem of free will, etc, and so the Rules of Reason do not produce objectively true answers to these questions. I also point out that libertarianism (known as "contra-causal volition") obviously violates physical causality, as does ex nihilo creation of mass/energy. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
StephenB, Thank you very much for you contributions to the discussion. We have a different view of things, but it was a pleasure hearing from you. Sal scordova
RD, Let take a simple example: God creates a star. I say that [a] God gives existence to the star and [b] the star receives it. You say that the second clause violates logic. In your view, the star cannot receive existence because we can predicate nothing of something that doesn’t exist. I gather that you also mean that we cannot even say that the star “comes into existence” since that, too, would be predicating something about a non-existent star. I gather that you also reject the first clause, that is, you reject the proposition that God can give existence to the star since there is no star in existence to receive that which is given. How, then, would you use the English language to express the cause effect relationship between the giver of existence and the thing to which existence is given? Or, are you simply saying that it is illogical to suppose that God could confer existence on anyone or anything? StephenB
kairosfocus, yes, thank you. There can be no conflict between causality and conservation. "The notion that something has a beginning, is caused and so at that point of initiation receives existence, passing from being possible to being actual, has in it no contradictions. Indeed, it is a commonly seen event. This post is a case in point, and so are you and I for that matter." Well said, thank you. StephenB
SB (ATTN RDF): Some time ago, I pointed out the nature of conservation of mass - energy. Namely, that it is consistent with things like photons becoming positron-electron pairs under certain circumstances, etc. Similarly, that it is consistent with matter being transformed chemically or physically into new forms and configurations, creating things that were possible beings but up to that time had no actual existence. Similarly, components and sub-assemblies are routinely put together to make a whole functional entity, such as an automobile or a protein molecule. Not one of these violates energy-mass, momentum, angular momentum conservation, etc etc etc. Where also, to create a cosmos ex nihilo is conceivable, and would be prior to laws of preservation and transformation of what has come into being. The conservation principle objection is specious. KF kairosfocus
5F: SB is right about the terms, concepts and timeline. Not a surprise for someone with grad level training in phil. (SB: I hope that is not too personal to say such.) Maybe we can put it in these terms: we can think of possible worlds. Possible beings will have existence in some of these worlds, not others. That something comes to be in this world simply means that it was possible and has been actuated. This requires a sufficient cluster of causal factors, including at least all necessary enabling ones. Truly necessary beings, by contrast, will be in any possible world. A suggested being would be impossible -- existing in no possible world -- if the suggested attributes are mutually contradictory. The suggestion, "square circle" is a classic illustration of this. What is required to be squarish and what is needed to be circular stand in mutual opposition such that they cannot be met simultaneously. A "square circle" has no potential to exist in this or any other possible world. The notion that something has a beginning, is caused and so at that point of initiation receives existence, passing from being possible to being actual, has in it no contradictions. Indeed, it is a commonly seen event. This post is a case in point, and so are you and I for that matter. KF PS: RDF, rhetoric, too often degenerates into the attempt to make the worse appear the better case. ON FAIR COMMENT, FOR WEEKS NOW YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING THAT, AND REFUSING ALL CORRECTION. I would suggest that a better path would be to recognise that you are in the presence of someone with hard-bought technical knowledge on the matters of interest, and instead of trying to deflect or brush aside or dismiss or find an excuse not to attend, pause and learn. kairosfocus
[c] also, you have not answered the question about how you would express the coming into existence of new life. Your offering "was born" does not fit the bill because it doesn't address the coming to be of life or existence and is in the passive voice. What we need is an active verb the precedes the word life or existence. As in, "the offspring {verb} new life or existence." You have said that we cannot use the verb "received." What verb, then, can we use? We do know, after all, that the offspring now has life and existence where it did not have either of those things. before. StephenB
RD
First, you failed to mention this “potential existence” until I had demonstrated that your formulation using “existence” was logically contradictory. This indicates you are making this up as you go along, which – believe me – is not going to turn out well for you.
The point of bringing up potential existence was to show you why the formulation was NOT contradictory and WHY your symbols were inappropriate. That required two separate responses [a] to tell you that your symbols didn’t work and [b] to explain why your symbols didn’t work when you didn’t accept [a]
Second, you specifically were talking about things that were non-existent receiving existence, not things that were potentially existing. In any case, at some point something without mass/energy must gain mass/energy, which violates conservation.
Only those things that exist potentially can receive existence. It has nothing at all to do with conservation. If you think it does, tell me why.
Your original argument, which you stated repeatedly, was that things that did not exist “received existence” and thus came into being. You never mentioned “potential existence” until I refuted your argument.
I didn’t mention potential existence until you claimed there was a contradiction, at which time it became necessary to apprise you of a fact about which you were unaware.
To refresh your memory: Are atoms potentially existing motorcycles? Are clouds potentially existing raindrops? At what point does a potentially existing mass actually have mass?
The three cases are all different. The first is art, the second is nature, and the third implies ex-nilio creation. Atoms can be a potential motorcycle in a strong sense if a designer is present to arrange the parts. Less so without a designer. Rain and clouds are different, because they are part of nature. Water is actual water that has the potential to be a cloud, but it must go through the process of first being actual water vapor, which is less water and more cloud, and then a cloud, which is then potential water, and so on. I don’t know what potentially existing mass means, but potentially existing matter or energy could exist in the mind of the Creator and become actualized at the point of creation. In all three cases, something non-existent receives existence.
You can try to answer these questions, but I think we both know you can’t possibly make sense of this notion in this context.
I can’t imagine why you would think that.
You responded to my refutation @405, and never mentioned “potential existence” at all!!!
That is because I was telling you that your symbols were wrong. When you didn’t understand why they were wrong, I had to tell you what you had left out, namely potential existence.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Boy do you have some egg on your face this time, my friend. Looks like it wasn’t “potential existence” at all that you were talking about, but rather nothingness and non-existence.
You are chasing the wind once again. Non-existence can easily equal potential existence and vice versa.
There is this weird tree in South America and its wood expands greatly in high-temperature high-humidity situations. The expansion varies, but can be up to 1000x in some cases where a great deal of water and air enter the wood, elongating and thickening the cellulosic fibers. In addition, a crystalline structure appears that yields polygonic shapes, so sometimes a small, irregular splinter of this wood expands into a large rectangular solid. Is this a logically consistent story? Of course it is. Is it a physically true story? Of course not.
No, it is not logically consistent because it violates the nature of wood. Would doesn’t act like that under any circumstances. If it did, it wouldn’t be wood. You are making the same error as you did with ice and the snowman. The whole point of the Law of Causality is to explain that which is not logically or physically possible. It is not logically possible for wood to not be wood, which would violate the Law of Non-Contradiction. The two are tied together, but you cannot grasp the point. In any case, I knew that you made up the story because it presents a logically impossible scenario..
If you’d like to continue, I’d be very happy to – I really am winning every single point.
You haven’t won one yet. [a] You can begin by telling me exactly why the Law of Causality violates the Law of Conservation. [b] Oh, and you also need to explain how a wood splinter can become a two-by-four beam without violating the nature of wood. StephenB
Yeah, and thanks for the ad hominem directed at me StephenB. Don't know what my driving ability has got to do with it. They were serious questions I asked. I was trying to make sense of the concept of potential existence. It seems to me there is only existence or non-existence and nothing in between. So I guess, applying your concept, it is possible to both exist and not exist at the same time? Barry Arrington would not like that.... 5for
Hi StephenB,
1) I responded by showing that something can exist potentially and, therefore, receive existence.
First, you failed to mention this "potential existence" until I had demonstrated that your formulation using "existence" was logically contradictory. This indicates you are making this up as you go along, which - believe me - is not going to turn out well for you. Second, you specifically were talking about things that were non-existent receiving existence, not things that were potentially existing. In any case, at some point something without mass/energy must gain mass/energy, which violates conservation. RDF: 1, SB: 0
2) You didn’t even know about the concept of potential existence until I introduced it to you, claiming at first there is no such thing.
Your original argument, which you stated repeatedly, was that things that did not exist "received existence" and thus came into being. You never mentioned "potential existence" until I refuted your argument. I've already given you lots of reasons why your attempting to change your argument to use "potential existence" instead of "existence" is incoherent, and you haven't even tried to defend your use of this. Both 5for and I have asked you the obvious questions that you'd need to answer to make sense, and of course you provide no answer at all. To refresh your memory: Are atoms potentially existing motorcycles? Are clouds potentially existing raindrops? At what point does a potentially existing mass actually have mass? And so on. You can try to answer these questions, but I think we both know you can't possibly make sense of this notion in this context. RDF: 2, SB: 0
3) I pointed out that you didn’t include the concept of potential existence when using your symbols. Do you really hope to win credibility by continually resorting to gross misrepresentation?
You responded to my refutation @405, and never mentioned "potential existence" at all!!! On the contrary, what you said was this:
Predicate logic used in that fashion fails for the simple reason that it does not capture the analysis. It implies that one cannot meaningfully refer to or say anything about nothingness or non-existence, which is ridiculous.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Boy do you have some egg on your face this time, my friend. Looks like it wasn't "potential existence" at all that you were talking about, but rather nothingness and non-existence. Lucky for me that everything you said is all right here in black and white! Go read it yourself - you never even resorted to "potential existence" until @414, after we'd been going back-and-forth many times! Worse than your bad memory, though, are you worse arguments. You ploy to change your story to "potential existence" doesn't help you one bit!
4) There you go again. I responded by showing that some truths, such as the Law of Causality, are self-evident, such as the obvious fact that you can’t get a two-by-four from a wooden splinter. ...So, I asked you to put your imagination to work and show how it can even be imagined. As usual, you folded.
I love this! You pretend all of this stuff, and all I have to do is search upthread and prove you wrong every single time! This is so fun! From my post at @410:
There is this weird tree in South America and its wood expands greatly in high-temperature high-humidity situations. The expansion varies, but can be up to 1000x in some cases where a great deal of water and air enter the wood, elongating and thickening the cellulosic fibers. In addition, a crystalline structure appears that yields polygonic shapes, so sometimes a small, irregular splinter of this wood expands into a large rectangular solid. Is this a logically consistent story? Of course it is. Is it a physically true story? Of course not.
Hahahaha! RDF: 4 SB: 0 (RDF got a bonus point on this round because SB totally lied about me "folding"!)
Further insults, ad hominems, desperate ploys of a bad loser...
Waaaa. Let me see if I can make this a little easier for you. I had several advantages here. Mainly, since my point has been all along that nobody knows the answers to these Big Questions, all I have to do is play to tie and I win: I'm not defending determinism or materialism or atheism or and particular "ism", because my belief is that none of these "isms" can be successfully defended in terms of logic and experience. As SCordova so helpfully pointed out, these are all matters of faith. My other big advantage was I seem to be a lot more knowledgable than you are, and I make a lot better arguments. :-) If you'd like to continue, I'd be very happy to - I really am winning every single point. But if you are willing, let's dial back the ad hominems and snark and try our best to argue in good faith and to the best of our ability, ok? Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish: "Here’s a nice summary of where you have failed to respond to my arguments. 1) To say that “something receives existence” entails a logical contradiction (because it presupposes existence) 2) “Potential existence” is an incoherent concept (except in the most banal sense of one existing thing being shaped into something else) 3) LoC cannot be logically derived from the LNC (because existence is not a predicate) 4) Knowledge can never be absolutely certain (because epistemology is not solved) 5) Logic cannot be formally mapped to abstract questions of existence, e.g. the origin of the universe, the nature of causality, the problem of free will, etc, and so the Rules of Reason do not produce objectively true answers to these questions." SB: 1) I responded by showing that something can exist potentially and, therefore, receive existence. Even if you don’t agree with that conclusion, and you have no rationale for doing so, a response is a response. So your claim that I didn’t respond is an untruthful statement. 2) You didn’t even know about the concept of potential existence until I introduced it to you, claiming at first there is no such thing. The concept of potential existence has been a staple of Western Philosophy for over 2000 years. No one but you has ever said that it was an incoherent concept, and the only reason you are saying it is to avoid refutation. And, of course you are not telling the truth when you say I didn’t respond. 3) I pointed out that you didn’t include the concept of potential existence when using your symbols. Do you really hope to win credibility by continually resorting to gross misrepresentation? 4) There you go again. I responded by showing that some truths, such as the Law of Causality, are self-evident, such as the obvious fact that you can’t get a two-by-four from a wooden splinter. You tried to dodge the refutation by arbitrarily introducing, out of context, the difference between physical and logical possibilities. I then told you that your objection was mindless since such an event is neither physically or logically possible. You responded by saying that it is logically possible because we could “imagine” it. So, I asked you to put your imagination to work and show how it can even be imagined. As usual, you folded. 5) I have commented on all of those things.
I predicted that would not be able to summarize your counter-arguments, and that instead of trying, you would make up an excuse. My prediction was correct!
It’s easy to summarize what went on. You kept making irrational statements and I kept refuting them. It’s also easy to summarize this latest interaction. You failed to tell the truth and I set the record straight.
If you disagree, simply summarize your rebuttals! I predict you will not, and simply try and bluff and insult your way out of this. Too bad!!
On the contrary, I feel guilty for taking advantage of you. I assumed that you had adequate training in philosophy to engage in a rational dialogue. Now, I find that you don’t even know the meaning of terms like potency, act, existence, essence, contingency, and necessity. Even at that, I am starting to feel a bit sorry for you because, at this point, I am not sure you can even tell the difference between a truthful statement and a false statement. I tried to give you a way out @411 and was willing to grant you the last word, even though your comments at that time were both irrational and unfair. You decided to push it. That was a mistake. You are simply not equipped to engage in a dialogue of this kind. StephenB
Hi Stephen, Here’s a nice summary of where you have failed to respond to my arguments. 1) To say that “something receives existence” entails a logical contradiction (because it presupposes existence) 2) “Potential existence” is an incoherent concept (except in the most banal sense of one existing thing being shaped into something else) 3) LoC cannot be logically derived from the LNC (because existence is not a predicate) 4) Knowledge can never be absolutely certain (because epistemology is not solved) 5) Logic cannot be formally mapped to abstract questions of existence, e.g. the origin of the universe, the nature of causality, the problem of free will, etc, and so the Rules of Reason do not produce objectively true answers to these questions. That’s what we’ve argued about, and those are my arguments. You’ve disagreed with every one of them. I predicted that would not be able to summarize your counter-arguments, and that instead of trying, you would make up an excuse. My prediction was correct! There are our debate points, and you've lost every single one of them. If you disagree, simply summarize your rebuttals! I predict you will not, and simply try and bluff and insult your way out of this. Too bad!! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
5for
The concept of “potential existence” is interesting. Did you make it up?
Yes, I made up the terms potency, act, contigency, necessity, existence, and essence. Western Philosophy had nothing to do with it. By the way, they didn't give you a driver's license, did they? StephenB
RD
We are not talking about taking things that already exist and reshaping them into something else that exists. Rather, you very clearly are talking about things that do not exist and somehow making them exist.
That's very funny. You, who had never heard of potential existence and claimed it didn't exist, are now trying to tell me what it means and doesn't mean. Begin with Aristotle and work your way forward. Sorry, you get no more remedial education from me. The gym is empty. The game is over. You lost. Go home. StephenB
Second to last sentence meant to say: Does potential existence always become actual existence, or could I in theory have existed potentially for ever and never achieved actual existence? 5for
StephenB, it's interesting that the only person you can find to support you is KF, with an irrelevant example of electron positron pairs and the formation of a zygote. The concept of "potential existence" is interesting. Did you make it up? At what point does one potentially exist? Once one attains the status of potential existence what criteria determine whether that becomes actual existence? Does potential existence always become actual existence, or could I in theory have existed potentially and never achieved actual existence? Not that this has anything to do with your debate with RDFish which you lost a long time ago. 5for
Hi Stephen,
A sperm cell is a potential human being.
Yes, and atoms are potential motorcycles, and clouds are potential raindrops, and... We are not talking about taking things that already exist and reshaping them into something else that exists. Rather, you very clearly are talking about things that do not exist and somehow making them exist. Here's a nice summary of where you have failed to respond to my arguments. 1) To say that "something receives existence" entails a logical contradiction (because it presupposes existence) 2) "Potential existence" is an incoherent concept (except in the most banal sense of one existing thing being shaped into something else) 3) LoC cannot be logically derived from the LNC (because existence is not a predicate) 4) Knowledge can never be absolutely certain (because epistemology is not solved) 5) Logic cannot be formally mapped to abstract questions of existence, e.g. the origin of the universe, the nature of causality, the problem of free will, etc, and so the Rules of Reason do not produce objectively true answers to these questions. That's what we've argued about, and those are my arguments. You've disagreed with every one of them, but I predict you cannot summarize your counter-arguments, and I further predict that instead of trying, you will make up an excuse. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Funny, from what Ive seen, most of your buddies on here are guilty of that same long-winded nonsense blabbering. Joealtle
RD
There is no such thing as “potential existence”.
Your ignorance is a wonder to behold. A sperm cell is a potential human being. A baby is a potential adult. Matter is potential form. One can only guess why you are motivated to write paragraph after paragraph of such unbridled nonsense. The remainder of your long winded screed doesn't deserve a response since it contains similar examples of untutored sophistry. StephenB
kairosfocus @416. The conservation of mass-energy does not forbid anything from receiving existence, e.g. pair production of electron-positron pairs from high energy photons, etc. Right. Thank you. RD is simply trying to create an objection out of thin air. I asked him to defend his claim that the Law of Conservation could possibly be a problem for the Law of Causality and all he does is repeat the claim while providing no rational justification.
At less exotic levels, composite objects receive existence all the time, such as when a zygote is formed and then unfolds in accordance with the in-built programme of development phases leading to a newborn.
Yes, of course. Potential existence is actualized when anyone or anything comes into being.
Things which depend on external causal factors can and do come into existence, we say they have a beginning.
Right again.
RDF, sad to say, is blowing smoke and using trick mirrors as usual.
Unfortunately, that is, indeed, the case. All he does is blow smoke.
What does not come into existence is true necessary beings, things that have no such dependencies and are capable of being in the first place i.e. their proposed attributes are not in mutual contradiction like a square circle. KF
Or, we could say is that the necessary being is being itself and that every contingent creature has being that has been conferred on it. StephenB
SB: The conservation of mass-energy does not forbid anything from receiving existence, e.g. pair production of electron-positron pairs from high energy photons, etc. At less exotic levels, composite objects receive existence all the time, such as when a zygote is formed and then unfolds in accordance with the in-built programme of development phases leading to a newborn. Things which depend on external causal factors can and do come into existence, we say they have a beginning. RDF, sad to say, is blowing smoke and using trick mirrors as usual. What does not come into existence is true necessary beings, things that have no such dependencies and are capable of being in the first place i.e. their proposed attributes are not in mutual contradiction like a square circle. KF kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
I have indicated several times that self-evident truths are just that-self evident.
And I've never denied these or their warrant for belief. I've simply denied that they can be used to evaluate much of what we try and understand in the world, because logic does not capture the complexity of philosophy. You actually came to agree with me on this point, but you didn't realize it.
You don’t like it when I say that I know that a finite whole can never be less than any one its parts, or that something cannot come from nothing, or that a cause is necessary for an effect, or that a thing cannot be what it is and also something else.
The problem is not with logic; the problem is with mapping logic to the real world of our experience. You think that because the logic is sound, we can therefore come to objectively true conclusions about the nature of reality. My position has been that this doesn't work, and I (and others here) have tried to explain to you why that is.
Nevertheless, I do know these things. You don’t like it when I tie these first principles to rationality, but alas, that is what rationality means–in keeping with reason’s rules.
Your mistake, as always, is to mistake formal logic for reasoning. They are vastly different things. If reasoning could actually be reduced to formal logic, then computers could be programmed to reason the way people do. But reasoning does not reduce to logic, and computers cannot (at least currently) be programmed to reason the way people do. Logic is vitally important, and can use it to find inconsistencies and fallacies in arguments (as I did in your LNC->LoC argument). But we can't use logic to tell us the truth about the nature of the universe, free will, and so on.
I also know, as clarified in my last example, that parents give life and their offspring receive it in the same way that the cause gives and the effect receives. So, I, nor anyone else will likely be impressed with your attempts to evade that fact.
I've never attempted to evade an argument or fact in these discussions, and it is simply rude and silly and immature of your to pretend that I have. And I'm sorry, but your point about the fact that biological organisms reproduce somehow supports your inferences regarding causality in the universe is completely incoherent. It's like saying that because the Earth orbits the Sun, that means "everything that goes around comes around", and therefore the Law of Karma must be true. It's just wordplay - nonsense - it's not even a beginning of a well-formed argument about anything.
As usual, your response is totally irrelevant. If you don’t think that something or someone that doesn’t have life can “receive” life, and you have argued passionately than any such expression is a contradiction,
This is just bizarre. Biological organisms all reproduce, yes. What does this have to do with violating conservation laws, or the beginning of the universe, or causality on quantum scales, or your unsound argument for connecting the LNC with causality? Nothing whatsover. The fact that women give birth to babies has nothing to do with something that does not exist somehow "receiving existence"! The former is a reasonably well-understood biological phenomenon; the latter is a weird metaphysical argument that you mistakenly believe leads from the LNC to a universal law of causality.
...then what noun/verb combination would you use to characterize the new life from the vantage point of the human who is taking it on?
What??? How about "A baby is born"? This has nothing to do with anything we've talked about! No violations of mass/energy conseration, nothing about things that don't exist "receiving existence" or anything else! How does a drop of rain form from a cloud, or a wave form on the ocean, or a diamond form underground, or.... none of these things has anything to do with your position on how new matter/energy is "given existence" or anything else we've talked about.
Reminiscent of your earlier responses, you claim victory, ignore the challenge, and start talking about the mystery of fires.
On the contrary, I address every single one of your arguments, no matter how incoherent, and show you why you are wrong. Other folks here can see that; you unfortunately cannot.
RDFish, I should probably go ahead and explain exactly why you are wrong since my questions do not seem to be serving their role as thought stimulators.
Gee, you think you should make an argument instead of a string of insults? There's a thought!
Things can exist actually or they can exist potentially.
Huh? Things either exist or they do not - there is no middle ground. "Potential existence" is not a well-defined concept.
There was a time when each of us didn’t exist, but in our nonexistence we had the potential to receive existence or life.
That doesn't mean anything at all. If you don't exist, you have nothing - no attributes, no characteristics, nothing.
Thus, it is perfectly logical to say that something or someone who is non-existent can “receive” existence.
No, it is perfectly illogical! That is the whole point about Kant's argument! Did you even bother to look up his argument so you can understand it? I explained it to you several times, and you simply ignore it! Existence IS NOT a predicate (an attribute, characteristic, or quality) that can be attributed to something - trying to think of existence that way leads to logical contradictions. I explained this to you in English and you dismissed it. So I showed you this using formal logic... and you simply denied it was relevant!! But even Christian theologians accepted this, so for you to simply dismiss it without argument shows that you are not trying to argue your position, you are just stubbornly holding to it.
Indeed, it is absolutely necessary to use that term to show the cause/effect relationship between the giver and receiver of existence.
It is demonstrably contradictory to say that something "receives existence". Your idea that it is like a baby being born is absurd: Babies are built from the food that the mother eats, Stephen - you know that, right??? I have shown you, in formal logic, why the way you think of causality leads to contradiction. You need to address what I showed, with a better rebuttal than "logic is irrelevant"!
You insist that a thing cannot receive existence at all and to say so is to fall into contradiction.
Specifically I (and Kant and the majority of philosophers in the world) reject that it makes sense to say "X receives existence", for the precise reasons I explained.
Your aim was to prove the point using symbolic logic. Unfortunately, your symbols didn’t take potential existence into account, so they did not capture the philosophical point.
There is no such thing as "potential existence". Do unicorns enjoy this "potential existence"? Does anything exist potentially? What is the difference between something that exists potentially and something that doesn't exist potentially, and how do you tell?
Though I don’t think symbolic logic has near the substance of classical logic, it can be more efficient if used properly and in the right context. You didn’t use it properly.
I used it in the same way Kant did, and the way I used it was self-evidently correct, and your attempt to rehabilitate your argument using this concept of "potential existence" is an admission that I am quite correct, because you introduced no such concept originally! You know that your argument failed, and that my logical demonstration proved that, and now you are trying to patch it up with this new idea about "potential existence" - except it is nonsense.
All this came about because you were looking for ways to invalidate my perfectly logical and air tight argument that the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are inseparable.
I was showing your attempt to infer the LoC from the LNC is fatally flawed. Moreover, your Law of Causality is in conflict with both libertarianism and the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation. What a mess!
There is no logical way to separate them, so you resorted to an illogical argument, namely the claim that something cannot receive existence.
Hahahahaha!! My argument was stated in formal logic - and you call it "illogical"! Hahahaha. If you wish to believe that mass/energy that does not exist at time A suddenly exists at time B, you cannot use this fallacious and discredited notion of "something receiving existence". Rather, you have to say what you really mean, which is "creation ex nihilo". That way you salvage logic (at the expense of our physical conservation laws).
(If anyone is curious [at this point, I don’t think we have an audience] as to why the capacity to receive existence is related to the argument that the LNC and LoC are inseparable, I will be happy to take you through the derivation).
You did that already, and I demonstrated you were wrong. Now you are attempting to save your argument by introducing this ill-defined notion of "potential existence". If you are serious, and think you can actually salvage your failed argument using this idea, you need to explain what "potential existence" means, how it differs from "actual existence" and from "nonexistence", how you can tell when something potentially exists and when it doesn't, what sorts of attributes potentially existing things have and how we know that, and so on. Good luck with that. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish, I should probably go ahead and explain exactly why you are wrong since my questions do not seem to be serving their role as thought stimulators. Things can exist actually or they can exist potentially. There was a time when each of us didn’t exist, but in our nonexistence we had the potential to receive existence or life. Thus, it is perfectly logical to say that something or someone who is non-existent can “receive” existence. Indeed, it is absolutely necessary to use that term to show the cause/effect relationship between the giver and receiver of existence. You insist that a thing cannot receive existence at all and to say so is to fall into contradiction. Your aim was to prove the point using symbolic logic. Unfortunately, your symbols didn’t take potential existence into account, so they did not capture the philosophical point. Though I don’t think symbolic logic has near the substance of classical logic, it can be more efficient if used properly and in the right context. You didn’t use it properly. All this came about because you were looking for ways to invalidate my perfectly logical and air tight argument that the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are inseparable. There is no logical way to separate them, so you resorted to an illogical argument, namely the claim that something cannot receive existence. (If anyone is curious [at this point, I don’t think we have an audience] as to why the capacity to receive existence is related to the argument that the LNC and LoC are inseparable, I will be happy to take you through the derivation). StephenB
RDFish, I have indicated several times that self-evident truths are just that-self evident. You don't like it when I say that I know that a finite whole can never be less than any one its parts, or that something cannot come from nothing, or that a cause is necessary for an effect, or that a thing cannot be what it is and also something else. Nevertheless, I do know these things. You don't like it when I tie these first principles to rationality, but alas, that is what rationality means--in keeping with reason's rules. I also know, as clarified in my last example, that parents give life and their offspring receive it in the same way that the cause gives and the effect receives. So, I, nor anyone else will likely be impressed with your attempts to evade that fact. As usual, your response is totally irrelevant. If you don't think that something or someone that doesn't have life can "receive" life, and you have argued passionately than any such expression is a contradiction, then what noun/verb combination would you use to characterize the new life from the vantage point of the human who is taking it on? Reminiscent of your earlier responses, you claim victory, ignore the challenge, and start talking about the mystery of fires. StephenB
Hi StephenB, Neither of us were writing for an audience; we were writing to defend our views. The moral of this story is this: When you think all of your views are rock solid TRUTH, it's time to talk to somebody who has really thought about this stuff, and get reminded that things really aren't as certain as you so want to believe. You're wrong about absolute objective certainty, and you're wrong about logic and the Rules of Reason providing answers to philosophical questions. Most of all, you're wrong to think that you know the answers to questions of free will, the origin of the universe, or the origin of life. You really don't, and nobody else does either. Some of us are just wiser about what we don't know. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi RD: All good things must come to an end. I think we have lost our audience. Cheers. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
You said my scenarios were logically possible and I said that they were not and cannot, therefore, be demonstrated to be so. The Wikipedia article explained the ways in which some scenarios that that are physically impossible can be logically possible. I understand that such circumstances are possible, but they do not apply to my examples. That is why I used the examples that I used. I knew what I was doing when I put them on the table. They are both physically and logically impossible.
Ok, well that's a much more understandable response, thank you. I have previously alluded to the fact that logical/physical possibility, just like everything else in philosophy, is controversial. There are some philosophers (notably "objectivists") who deny the dichotomy altogether, along with the analytic/synthetic dichotomy. And other philosophers, as I noted, make much more fine-grained distinctions. As I've said repeatedly, it is not my desire or intent to delve into this particular issue per se, as it detracts from our primary differences.
If something is physically impossible, but logically possible, it can easily be demonstrated, just as Wikipedia did in its example. If, on the other hand, something is both physically and logically impossible, it cannot be demonstrated to be logically possible because it isn’t logically possible. Such is the case with my examples. They are neither physically or logically possible. That is why you cannot explain otherwise. I knew that you could not show how they are logically possible because I knew that they are not logically possible.
Well, I still disagree, and if you insist on slogging this out, I will ask you, "What is logically impossible about a splinter expanding into a wooden beam?" What contradiction is encountered? It is not logically impossible for a corn kernel to expand into popcorn, or a balloon to expand as it floats to the surface of a pool, or shaving cream to expand out of a can... why then is it logically impossible for a splinter of wood to expand into a beam? And why does it matter?
So, when you say that I don’t know, or do not account for the distinction between a physical impossibility and a logical possibility, you are simply not telling the truth.
Your responses were such that it appeared to me (and others) that you were simply avoiding the issue regarding logical/physical possibility, rather than trying to make a substantive claim.
You are disingenuously erecting a strawmen to avoid refutation and to avoid showing how my examples are logically possible.
You are indulging in baseless ad hominem attacks because you hate losing arguments.
RDF: You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can’t really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here. SB: On the contrary, I have been arguing all along that logic and causality are inextricably tied together. You have been arguing that they are not. That is what started this whole mess.
No, let's get this straight: 1) Your position is that we can obtain 100% certain truths regarding questions of ontology, origins, volition, and so on by taking self-evident truths and applying logical rules. 2) I have denied that your position is reasonable, for lots of different reasons that we've gone through (and SCordova has even provided some more) 3) Then you turn around and complain that when I use formal logic to destroy another one of your arguments, it isn't valid because logical rules don't capture the reality you are trying to describe! 4) I point out the delicious irony of that situation, and ask that you concede your own argument has circled around and bitten you in the butt. You have stated MY point - that logic does not capture these arguments and allow us to reach objective truths in these matters. 5) Instead of conceding, you irrelevantly state that your position is that "logic and causality are inextricably tied"! Wow.
I, too, reject Anselm’s argument. The best proofs for God’s existence are aposteriori, not apriori. Your example is inappropriate for the argument on the table. Anselm’s argument goes far beyond any claims that effects always have causes–far beyond.
Well, the point isn't about Anselm's proof - it was about Kant's argument that existence is not a property that can be added to something. Your attempt to tie LNC to LoC relied on this exact same illogical maneuver - saying that something can "receive existence" from something else. That is nonsense, as Kant demonstrated quite compellingly.
SB: I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy.” RDF: Of course. You would say “There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)”. SB: There you go. I can make claims about a non-existent universe, including its capacity to receive being.
No, that is not making claims about a non-existent universe that can recieve being. It is a statement that says there is no such thing as a universe that has mass or energy. To state "There is a non-existent X" is to state a contradiction, pure and simple. It is saying "There exists an X such that X does not exist".
RDF: There are no logical contradictions involved – we can easily imagine these things without contradiction – and so it is logically possible, period. SB: You keep saying that we can imagine it, but you cannot show me how it is possible. I can’t imagine how one can get a two-by-four out of a splinter.
Just as 5for said, it's like the CGI effects in Terminator, where metal expanded from a little pool on the floor into a humanoid terminator guy. I'm imagining that right now.
I don’t think you can imagine it either–not without changing the nature of wood.
The physical nature of wood - yes!!!!! That is why I said it was physically impossible!!! But not the "logical nature" of wood - there is no "logical nature" of wood!
To be sure, you can make the claim, but if you really can conceive of it, you should be able to bridge the gap between the two-by-four and the splinter. So, bridge the gap.
Ok. There is this weird tree in South America and its wood expands greatly in high-temperature high-humidity situations. The expansion varies, but can be up to 1000x in some cases where a great deal of water and air enter the wood, elongating and thickening the cellulosic fibers. In addition, a crystalline structure appears that yields polygonic shapes, so sometimes a small, irregular splinter of this wood expands into a large rectangular solid. Is this a logically consistent story? Of course it is. Is it a physically true story? Of course not. I beg you, let's drop this silly point - it really is going absolutely nowhere. Let us simply agree to disagree about this!
RDF: It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else. SB: That’s all very interesting, I am sure.
I see - you seem to not care about these substantive issues, and instead you're preoccupied by splinters and snow men. Come on - let's talk about something interesting!
I am simply responding to your claim that the Law of Causality is in conflict with the Law of Conservation. I say it isn’t; you say it is. Show me why.
READ WHAT I WRITE AND RESPOND TO IT: It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation. How can you say something comes into existence without violating conservation???
I continue to be astonished at these claims that non-being cannot receive being.
Physics says that matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Do not be astonished - it is a cornerstone of our understanding of the physical world.
Clearly, being cannot receive being so what else is left to receive it other than non-being.
I do not know what you mean when you say "being cannot recieve being".
It is the same with life. Life is passed on from generation to generation. Parents give life to their offspring, and their offspring receive life from their parents. The latter cannot have life unless they receive it, and they cannot receive it unless they do not have it and someone else gives it to them. If they don’t receive it, how else are they going to get it? Can someone give it to them without their receiving it? I sincerely want an answer to this question from anyone in shouting distance, either from my supporters or my adversaries. If the import of this question is not evident, I will be happy to explain it.
How does fire appear from no-fire? There is just wood and air and heat, and then all of a sudden, fire appears! How can that be? We actually can explain how fire appears, but we can't explain how life appears, and neither can we explain how the universe began. NOBODY KNOWS the answers to these questions. It apparently takes some courage for some people to admit this (it actually doesn't bother me at all), but it is the case. You may decide to pick some creation story or another, and that is just fine!!! There may even be big psychological and social benefits from it, and I would never judge somebody for it. I simply think that it is important not to pretend that whatever creation story you happen to pick is objectively and obviously true, and that anyone who doesn't see it your way is "incapable of rational thought"!!! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
I continue to be astonished at these claims that non-being cannot receive being. Clearly, being cannot receive being so what else is left to receive it other than non-being. It is the same with life. Life is passed on from generation to generation. Parents give life to their offspring, and their offspring receive life from their parents. The latter cannot have life unless they receive it, and they cannot receive it unless they do not have it and someone else gives it to them. If they don't receive it, how else are they going to get it? Can someone give it to them without their receiving it? I sincerely want an answer to this question from anyone in shouting distance, either from my supporters or my adversaries. If the import of this question is not evident, I will be happy to explain it. StephenB
RD
You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can’t really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here.
On the contrary, I have been arguing all along that logic and causality are inextricably tied together. You have been arguing that they are not. That is what started this whole mess.
In any case, students of philosophy will recognize this argument from Kant’s famous rebuttal of Anselm’s ontological proof. Even the majority of Christian scholars abandoned Anselm’s proof when Kant pointed out that it rests on the logically intractable notion that existence is an attribute that can be added to a thing.
I, too, reject Anselm's argument. The best proofs for God's existence are aposteriori, not apriori. Your example is inappropriate for the argument on the table. Anselm's argument goes far beyond any claims that effects always have causes--far beyond. "I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy."
Of course. You would say “There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)”.
There you go. I can make claims about a non-existent universe, including its capacity to receive being.
There are no logical contradictions involved – we can easily imagine these things without contradiction – and so it is logically possible, period.
You keep saying that we can imagine it, but you cannot show me how it is possible. I can't imagine how one can get a two-by-four out of a splinter. I don't think you can imagine it either--not without changing the nature of wood. To be sure, you can make the claim, but if you really can conceive of it, you should be able to bridge the gap between the two-by-four and the splinter. So, bridge the gap.
It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else.
That's all very interesting, I am sure. I am simply responding to your claim that the Law of Causality is in conflict with the Law of Conservation. I say it isn't; you say it is. Show me why. StephenB
RD
Everything is logically possible unless there is a logical contradiction, and there is no logical contradiction in your scenario. I’ve told you this endlessly, but you really don’t want to hear it.
Yes, that's right. You said my scenarios were logically possible and I said that they were not and cannot, therefore, be demonstrated to be so. The Wikipedia article explained the ways in which some scenarios that that are physically impossible can be logically possible. I understand that such circumstances are possible, but they do not apply to my examples. That is why I used the examples that I used. I knew what I was doing when I put them on the table. They are both physically and logically impossible. If something is physically impossible, but logically possible, it can easily be demonstrated, just as Wikipedia did in its example. If, on the other hand, something is both physically and logically impossible, it cannot be demonstrated to be logically possible because it isn’t logically possible. Such is the case with my examples. They are neither physically or logically possible. That is why you cannot explain otherwise. I knew that you could not show how they are logically possible because I knew that they are not logically possible. So, when you say that I don’t know, or do not account for the distinction between a physical impossibility and a logical possibility, you are simply not telling the truth. You are disingenuously erecting a strawmen to avoid refutation and to avoid showing how my examples are logically possible. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
I specifically said that the difference you allude to doesn’t apply to our discussion. I also allowed for the difference when I asked you to explain the logical impossibility on the basis of the logical impossibility alone.
Huh? I've said perhaps three dozen times that these things are NOT logically impossible, but rather physically impossible. I really could not have been more clear about this.
You refused to justify your illogical claim—and still do, yet you are the one who said it is logically possible.
Everything is logically possible unless there is a logical contradiction, and there is no logical contradiction in your scenario. I've told you this endlessly, but you really don't want to hear it.
RDF: It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation. SB: Another question unanswered. You are simply making another claim without an explanation.
My claim is that creation of matter/energy violates the conservation of matter/energy, and that is the answer to your question regarding how what you said violated conservation laws. Again, it really couldn't be more clear, and I'm certain that any fair reader would agree with me.
HOW does a thing, such as a universe (that once didn’t exist and comes into existence) such as the universe, violate conservation.
It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else.
RDF: That is why existence can’t be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails. SB: Predicate logic used in that fashion fails for the simple reason that it does not capture the analysis.
Oh, this is just too delicious. You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can't really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here. In any case, students of philosophy will recognize this argument from Kant's famous rebuttal of Anselm's ontological proof. Even the majority of Christian scholars abandoned Anselm's proof when Kant pointed out that it rests on the logically intractable notion that existence is an attribute that can be added to a thing. Now, you needn't even use predicate logic to see this; I had made the same point using English, but you didn't want to see it. Logic just makes it perfectly clear, because we must make our existential quantifiers explicit in formal logic. Here is yet another way to understand it: When you say that X "receives being from" Y, you imply that X is already something exemplified in the world, even though it doesn't exist, and that is the root of the contradiction. What you should say instead to avoid contradiction is "Y creates X ex nihilo". That of course violates no logical principle, but it does violate the physical law of conservation! As has been pointed out by our friendly reader, you've lost your arms and legs on this one, Stephen. Now raise your bloody stump and concede!
It implies that one cannot meaningfully refer to or say anything about nothingness or non-existence, which is ridiculous.
No, you can say things about non-existence in logic of course!
I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy.
Of course. You would say "There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)". You can even say "There exists no X such that X exists" (not true, but logically sound) And you can say "There exists no X such that X does not exist" (true AND logically sound) But you cannot say "There exists X such that X does not exist" (logically contradictory) The last of these is tantamount to your argument: "There exists X such that X does not exist and X receives existence from Y".
All these things would be obvious to a rational person.
Oooh, there's that anger again. It really does make you look a little desperate.
Notice how I address your questions while you run away from my questions.
I have answered every single one of your questions, Stephen. You don't want this to be the case, because it means you're wrong, but it's all right here in black and white.
Are you now going to justify your claim that a wooden splinter can logically morph into a wood beam or a gold sliver can logically morph into a gold bar.
Things do not "logically morph" - they "physically morph"! Water does not logically turn into ice, it physically turns into ice! Splinters do not logically morph into a beam, and nor do they physically do so! Splinters turning into beams can't happen because they are physically impossible, and there is no such thing as a "logical explanation" of something that is physically impossible! There are no logical contradictions involved - we can easily imagine these things without contradiction - and so it is logically possible, period. Yes, you may plug your ears and sing la-la-la every time I answer, and pretend that I'm running away, but it won't help. There's this little piece inside of you that knows you're wrong about these things. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFIsh
Thanks, but too late :-)
OK, I will withdraw my offer to refrain from asking you to answer my question. RDFish:
You refuse to acknowledge the difference between logical and physical possibility, and refuse to acknowledge that no logical contradiction arises from your scenario, and refuse to acknowledge that since it is a physical impossibility, there can obviously be no explanation for how it could physically happen. I’m quite happy to leave this one to the fair reader.
That is an untrue statement. I specifically said that the difference you allude to doesn't apply to our discussion. I also allowed for the difference when I asked you to explain the logical impossibility on the basis of the logical impossibility alone. You refused to justify your illogical claim---and still do, yet you are the one who said it is logically possible.
It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation.
Another question unanswered. You are simply making another claim without an explanation. HOW does a thing, such as a universe (that once didn't exist and comes into existence) such as the universe, violate conservation.
In predicate logic, the proposition “X receives Y” is denoted as: There exists X such that X receives Y In your argument, you propose “a non-existent thing receives existence”. Thus, “X” (the subject) is “non-existent thing” and “Y” (the predicate) is “existence” Substituting for X and Y, we have: There exists a non-existent thing such that it receives existence This entails a contradiction. That is why existence can’t be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails.
Predicate logic used in that fashion fails for the simple reason that it does not capture the analysis. It implies that one cannot meaningfully refer to or say anything about nothingness or non-existence, which is ridiculous. I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy. I can also say many thing about nothingness in general, such as, something cannot come from nothing. All these things would be obvious to a rational person. Notice how I address your questions while you run away from my questions. Are you now going to justify your claim that a wooden splinter can logically morph into a wood beam or a gold sliver can logically morph into a gold bar. Are you even willing to try? Why not try a little predicate logic? StephenB
StephenB you need to realise and accept when you have lost an argument. You remind me of that knight in the monty python sketch who won't stop fighting even when all his arms and legs have been cut off. '"It's only a flesh wound"... 5for
Hi Stephen,
You said it was logically possible to get a wooden beam from a two-by-four splinter. I simply asked you to show me how it was logically possible. Since you cannot do it, or will not even try, and since I knew that you could not or would not, it seems obvious that I won the debate.
You refuse to acknowledge the difference between logical and physical possibility, and refuse to acknowledge that no logical contradiction arises from your scenario, and refuse to acknowledge that since it is a physical impossibility, there can obviously be no explanation for how it could physically happen. I'm quite happy to leave this one to the fair reader.
Let’s try to end on a positive note. Just to show you what a good sport I can be, I will give you a pass on answering my question,
Thanks, but too late :-)
but I will try to answer your question as sincerely as possible. How’s that for being magnanimous?
Uncommonly so!
First, though, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the metaphysical Law of Causality, which informs all physical laws including the Law of Conservation, could possibly violate the latter,
It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn't exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you've violated conservation.
..and second, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the fact that the noun “existence” is not a predicate negates the possibility that a non-existent thing can receive existence from something else.
Ok then: In predicate logic, the proposition "X receives Y" is denoted as: There exists X such that X receives Y In your argument, you propose "a non-existent thing receives existence". Thus, "X" (the subject) is "non-existent thing" and "Y" (the predicate) is "existence" Substituting for X and Y, we have: There exists a non-existent thing such that it receives existence This entails a contradiction. That is why existence can't be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails. Your turn! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish
Just skip the problem regarding conservation laws, and skip the problem that existence is not a predicate (which, if you understood it, would reveal to you why if something doesn’t exist, it can’t actually “receive existence” from something else).
Let's try to end on a positive note. Just to show you what a good sport I can be, I will give you a pass on answering my question, but I will try to answer your question as sincerely as possible. How's that for being magnanimous? First, though, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the metaphysical Law of Causality, which informs all physical laws including the Law of Conservation, could possibly violate the latter, and second, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the fact that the noun "existence" is not a predicate negates the possibility that a non-existent thing can receive existence from something else. StephenB
SB:Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim… RDF:What I notice is how rude you get when you’re losing a debate. Speak to me, please, instead of about me. You are getting a little hysterical aren't you? You said it was logically possible to get a wooden beam from a two-by-four splinter. I simply asked you to show me how it was logically possible. Since you cannot do it, or will not even try, and since I knew that you could not or would not, it seems obvious that I won the debate. Thank you for playing. StephenB
StephenB,
If you cannot grasp the point that only something that doesn’t exist can receive existence, then you are not capable of rational thought.
Ah, yes, OK. If you can't actually win an argument, the next best thing is to vilify your opponent. Sure, Stephen, I'm incapable of rational thought - yes, that's the problem. You may now sleep easy, knowing that all of my arguments that you had no response to were just the ramblings of an irrational lunatic! Just skip the problem regarding conservation laws, and skip the problem that existence is not a predicate (which, if you understood it, would reveal to you why if something doesn't exist, it can't actually "receive existence" from something else). No need to think or argue, just declare that anyone who disagrees with you is insane! Nice job! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi SCordova,
But that may be a moot point since I’ve already managed to say something offensive to 90% of my colleagues here UD. If this were face book, I’d have been delisted from people’s friends list. You are correct to perceive that StephenB and I would disagree. But I’d prefer not to characterize dialogue as one party “schooling” another. All this to say, I’ll pass on picking many more conflicts at UD…I’ve created enough myself.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put you in an awkward situation. Anyway, as you point out, it's not so much StephenB's views that I disagree with, it is his absolutism about his ability to objectively reason from self-evident first principles all the way up to his own particular faith-based positions on the profound questions of existence.
I’m not trying to play Darwin’s advocate in the discussion, everything I’ve said I’ve said sincerely.
Interesting comment, as Darwin hasn't come up once! I myself am utterly convinced that Darwinian evolution as currently understood can't possibly account for what we observe in biological systems. So I'm no "advocate of Darwin" either, nor am I a "materialist". Hopefully you'll be in a little less trouble with your colleagues, given I'm really not in the "enemy camp", huh?
This became more apparent when I studied math, and one day the professor said, “these are the axioms of the real number system, like the Apostles creed, they are statements of faith, they are unprovable”. I just about fell out of my chair, but that day made far more sense to me than anything I read in Summa Theologica, because it was a humble admission of our finite abilities to know very much about anything at all. I then learned of Gödel’s Incompleteness and Heisenberg Uncertainty — basically how little we can ever know about anything. I realized how so much of the important concepts in life proceed with some measure of unprovable faith.
Exactly so, and well said. Like I said, we all have unprovable faith in lots of things - we quite literally could not live with it (because so little is "provable"). In a related point, much of what I've seen in the ID movement amounts to co-opting the special certainty of the empirical sciences to justify theistic beliefs. I can certaintly understand the motivation for this, given that people like Dawkins co-opt science to justify anti-theistic beliefs, but I wish people on both "sides" would really value science for how far it goes, and not try to make it go farther than it can. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
If it doesn’t exist, it can’t receive anything. Can a non-existent catcher receive a pitch? Can a non-existent hostess receive a guest? Can a non-existent dog receive a bath? I’m afraid not.
If you cannot grasp the point that only something that doesn't exist can receive existence, then you are not capable of rational thought. StephenB
SCordova here is obviously quite familiar with the failure of your approach to epistemology, and apparently he is an ID supporter as well. Perhaps you’d be more amenable to being schooled by him instead of me on how wrongheaded your views are. Cheers, RDFish
But that may be a moot point since I've already managed to say something offensive to 90% of my colleagues here UD. If this were face book, I'd have been delisted from people's friends list. :-) You are correct to perceive that StephenB and I would disagree. But I'd prefer not to characterize dialogue as one party "schooling" another. All this to say, I'll pass on picking many more conflicts at UD...I've created enough myself. I'm not trying to play Darwin's advocate in the discussion, everything I've said I've said sincerely. I recall reading through Thomas Aquinas works when I was a teenager (yikes!), and thinking later how meaningless some of the assertions seemed to me. This became more apparent when I studied math, and one day the professor said, "these are the axioms of the real number system, like the Apostles creed, they are statements of faith, they are unprovable". I just about fell out of my chair, but that day made far more sense to me than anything I read in Summa Theologica, because it was a humble admission of our finite abilities to know very much about anything at all. I then learned of Gödel's Incompleteness and Heisenberg Uncertainty -- basically how little we can ever know about anything. I realized how so much of the important concepts in life proceed with some measure of unprovable faith. What I've heard in this thread reminds me of some of the deductive methods of Summa Theologica. As a total aside, now adding a little more on Banach Tarski, Wiki says:
The reason the Banach–Tarski theorem is called a paradox is that it contradicts basic geometric intuition. "Doubling the ball" by dividing it into parts and moving them around by rotations and translations, without any stretching, bending, or adding new points, seems to be impossible, since all these operations preserve the volume, but the volume is doubled in the end.
Not that I had a point, but I just found it amusing. It violates so much mathematical intuition! scordova
Hi StephenB,
RDF: First, you rely on the absurd notion that things which do not exist can still do things, such as receive things. If something does not exist, it cannot do anything. SB: You are very confused.
That is always possible! ;-) get it?
Yes, something must already exist to do something. However, a thing that doesn’t exist must receive existence from something else.
You've just contradicted yoursef. If it doesn't exist, it can't receive anything. Can a non-existent catcher receive a pitch? Can a non-existent hostess receive a guest? Can a non-existent dog receive a bath? I'm afraid not.
Unfortunately, you think that something can bring itself into existence, which is, of course, illogical.
Unfortunately, when you get backed into a corner you always decide to pretend I'm saying something I'm not, which is, of course, annoying and dishonest. I never said something can bring itself into existence - you can check the record, it's all right here on this page! - and in fact I pointed out that this would violate the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy!
RDF: Second, your assertion that something can “receive being” sounds like it violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Do you believe that this conservation law can be violated? SB: The Law of Causality does not violate the Law of Conservation of energy.
Well that's a real darn smart argument, there! Who are you, the King of Truth, and what you say goes? How about telling us why you think that if some material thing is caused to exist that did not previously exist this could be consistent with the Law of Conservation?
RDF: I’ve already answered that it is physically impossible, but not logically impossible. Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim...
What I notice is how rude you get when you're losing a debate. Speak to me, please, instead of about me. And you should be awfully embarassed when you say I refuse to defend a claim that I have successfully defended so many times - and both of the readers here who have spoken up have agreed with me instead of you! Given your remarks, I am even more confident in my assessment of our fundamental difference. You want to believe you can build an absolutely certain understanding of the world from self-evident truths and logic. In this I think you could not possibly be more wrong. You are making the same mistake as the Logical Positivists - read about them and learn! SCordova here is obviously quite familiar with the failure of your approach to epistemology, and apparently he is an ID supporter as well. Perhaps you'd be more amenable to being schooled by him instead of me on how wrongheaded your views are. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi scordova,
Agreed. To see this, look at Banach Tarksi Paradox
Excellent reference! I'd seen this many years ago - thank you for seeing its relevance!
Clearly it would seem I should be on the ID side of the argument here, but my objection to some of the sweeping statements offered is that they are based on hasty generalizations from our limited sampling of reality.
We haven't even discussed "ID" here yet :-)
One only needs to go a little into math and physics, and soon, ordinary intuitions as to how things ought to operate are often out the window. I don’t feel comfortable making sweeping generalizations. As I said, I’m a bit of an anti-rationalists, more of a brute evidentialist, empiricist, and pragmatist. I have esoteric, unprovable beliefs.
We all have unprovable beliefs. It takes a little courage to see that apparently.
Even if I accept free-will, and first cause, ID, God etc. — I object to the deductive methods. Even if a math theorem is true, I got penalized points on exams if my deductions to the truth were via non-sequiturs.
Indeed!
I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will
You and I agree wholeheartedly on everything you said here. Thank you for adding clarity to this discussion! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance, Thank you for the fun exchange! I appreciated your sincerity. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RD
First, you rely on the absurd notion that things which do not exist can still do things, such as receive things. If something does not exist, it cannot do anything.
You are very confused. Yes, something must already exist to do something. However, a thing that doesn't exist must receive existence from something else. That isn't the same thing as "doing something." Unfortunately, you think that something can bring itself into existence, which is, of course, illogical. But, we have been through all that before and, as I have discovered, you are impervious to reason.
Second, your assertion that something can “receive being” sounds like it violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Do you believe that this conservation law can be violated?
The Law of Causality does not violate the Law of Conservation of energy. SB: I think, then, that it is fair to ask you to show how it is, indeed, logically possible–to provide the logical connection between the raw material (splinter) and the finished product (wood beam). RDF:
I’ve already answered that it is physically impossible, but not logically impossible.
Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim that a splinter can logically morph into a two-by-four and shrinks away from my challenge to explain how it might be possible in that context. Notice also that he disingenuously pretends to have answered the question even as he avoids it. As usual, he hopes that his exercise in misdirection will suffice. SB: That is why I can say boldly and with the utmost confidence that you will not even try to defend you claim. You will either simply repeat it or change the subject.
In my view, I have considered your arguments to the best of my ability, and articulated my objections to each of them.
Notice, again, the misdirection. He is asked to explain his position logically, and he responds by alluding to my position. StephenB
None of these are logical contradictions. They are physical impossibilities – contingent, empirical truths that do not hold in all possible worlds.
Agreed. To see this, look at Banach Tarksi Paradox
A stronger form of the theorem implies that given any two "reasonable" solid objects (such as a small ball and a huge ball), either one can be reassembled into the other. This is often stated colloquially as "a pea can be chopped up and reassembled into the Sun."
And this is in a world of well accepted mathematics. Clearly it would seem I should be on the ID side of the argument here, but my objection to some of the sweeping statements offered is that they are based on hasty generalizations from our limited sampling of reality. One only needs to go a little into math and physics, and soon, ordinary intuitions as to how things ought to operate are often out the window. I don't feel comfortable making sweeping generalizations. As I said, I'm a bit of an anti-rationalists, more of a brute evidentialist, empiricist, and pragmatist. I have esoteric, unprovable beliefs. Even if I accept free-will, and first cause, ID, God etc. -- I object to the deductive methods. Even if a math theorem is true, I got penalized points on exams if my deductions to the truth were via non-sequiturs. I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will etc. scordova
RDFish @389, thanks for your thoughtful response, and I'll let your comments there stand as the last word between us for the subject on this thread. I have appreciated our exchange, and it's been fun and challenging. However I've grown weary of the back-and-forth and it's cost in terms of time, and don't expect to make any more progress; there's been enough content generated between us that onlookers can decide for themselves about the issues raised. So I bid you farewell for now. Best, Chance Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB,
The issue here is the Law of Causality. I accept it; you do not.
Nope, you've over-simplified and mischaracterized as usual. You believe: Everything has a cause, although the choices that humans make are uncaused (it isn't clear if you think other animals' choices are caused or not). I believe: Everything in our direct experience has a cause, except perhaps human and animal choices (nobody knows if our choices result from physical cause). Outside of the realm of our experience (i.e. quantum effects, outside of spacetime) it appears that we can't apply our the concept of causality as we currently conceive of it. If you'd like to stop there and agree to disgree on this, that's fine.
Notice, that when we were discussing this in the abstract, I didn’t just make the claim that the LoC is derived from the LNC, I did the derivation in your presence and in the presence of everyone else who cared to observe. Since you, nor anyone else, provided any rational objections, the matter should have been settled then and there.
Your "derivation" was nonsense, as I pointed out. There are two problems I identified. First, you rely on the absurd notion that things which do not exist can still do things, such as receive things. If something does not exist, it cannot do anything. Second, your assertion that something can "receive being" sounds like it violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Do you believe that this conservation law can be violated? Your "derivation" of the LoC from the LNC is wordplay, not analytic philosophy, and certainly not science. Look at the the way you state the LoC: Every effect has a cause. And how do you define "effect"? Why, as "the result of a cause" of course! So the way you put it, the LoC is not even a true statement about the world - rather, it is simply true by definition - a tautology! And when you don't want something to be caused (like human choices) you simply say "Oh, that isn't an effect!" It's all just semantic sleight-of-hand. It's nonsense. In contrast, scientists treat the LoC as an actual proposition about how the world works. They say Every event has a cause. Now that is an actual proposition that isn't just true by definition, but it is making an assertion about the world. Is it true? Does this law hold? It does in our everyday experience, but apparently not in the quantum world, nor outside of spacetime.
You disagree and insist that it is logically possible to get the former from the latter–to get more in the effect than is in the cause.
Yes in terms of the amount of matter involved, I believe it would violate conservation laws, but not logic. I think, then, that it is fair to ask you to show how it is, indeed, logically possible–to provide the logical connection between the raw material (splinter) and the finished product (wood beam). I've already answered that it is physically impossible, but not logically impossible.
Here is something to keep in mind. I have the advantage of knowing with apodictic certainty that you cannot defend your claim because I know with that same level of certainty that the Law of Causality is a valid rule of right reason for which there are no exceptions.
Yes, I would say this is a very important thing for all of us to keep in mind when discussing anything with you. You are defiantly incapable of considering the possibility that you are mistaken.
That is why I can say boldly and with the utmost confidence that you will not even try to defend you claim. You will either simply repeat it or change the subject.
In my view, I have considered your arguments to the best of my ability, and articulated my objections to each of them. Given your remarks, I am even more confident in my assessment of our fundamental difference. You want to believe you can build an absolutely certain understanding of the world from self-evident truths and logic. In this I think you could not possibly be more wrong. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
I asserted that a program will produce the same output on the same input from the starting state. This point still stands.
We agree that a computer will produce the same output on the same input from the same starting state. I don't see why this is relevant. In comparing people to computers, people do not reset, and so when comparing the non-deterministic output of computers to that of people, we ought not think of resetting the computer either. That's the whole point: We human beings are the sum total of our initial state as acted upon by a virtually infinite number of interactions with the world in our lifetimes.
So you weren’t using nondeterministic input as a justification that computers make free choices?
(Reminder: We now have agreed to commit to your definition of "free"). Computers do not make free choices.
Random effects are contingent, and they conform to a probability distribution.
I find this definition to be nonsense. First, everything conforms to some sort of probability distribution, even an unbroken series of identical outputs. Second, all that "contigent" means (as far as you've defined it) is "not determined". What causes something that is not determined? Are nuclear decay events caused by anything? Are they determined? Random? Both?
RDF: I did not make a claim that computers make free choices; I simply pointed out that according to my definition, computers made free choices. It was not a statement of fact, but rather a matter of definition.” CR: Your claim was made in your conversation with Phinehas at #211: RDF: My point was that no computer can be morally responsible for anything, because that which gives us moral accountability is absent from computers. While both humans and computers can make free choices, computers lack the human concept of morality.
That is correct. What is your question? DID YOU FORGET THAT I WAS USING MY DEFINITION FOR "FREE" THERE?
The only distinction you were making was that computers lack moral accountability — otherwise according to you, both humans and computers make free choices. Whatever notion of “free” you had in mind, you were imputing it to both computers and humans. Was this the determined free, or the nondetermined free?
As I clearly stated, my definition of "free choice" was "selecting from multiple possible options based on internal states". I beg you to stick to your own defintion of "free" so we do not constantly have to revisit this.
RDF: 3) Programs can change themselves non-deterministically given non-deterministic input CR: So you never intended this to be taken in the context of free choices?
Computers cannot make free choices, because their output does not fit your definition of free. Programs can, however, change themselves, and if the input controlling these changes is non-deterministic, these changes will likewise be non-deterministic. Let's drop this - it doesn't really matter to the central issue of our discussion.
CR: Consistent with my definition, human beings output non-random, contingent digital strings like this very sentence, which is neither random nor explicable by physical law. RDF: Just because we can’t explain it by physical law does not mean it is not produced by deterministic means. This is crucial for you to understand, and there can be two sorts of reasons for our inability to explain things. CR: How is it that contingent output which is not random can be explained by deterministic means, even in principle?
Why do you say that human output cannot be explained by deterministic means in principle? I completely disagree. If anyone could demonstrate that, it would revolutionize science, philosophy, and our understanding of just about everything! We cannot currently explain how humans think, plan, design, use language, and so on, and perhaps we never will, but we have no proof or demonstration that it is impossible in principle to explain our mental abilities in deterministic terms. This is the crux of our entire discussion.
Wow, eight question marks! What would indicate more incredulity, nine question marks? Or perhaps you could duplicate some vowels: WHAAAAAT???????? Obviously my remarks are so beyond the pale, that any number of question marks, all caps, and the addition of extraneous vowels could not possibly convey how ridiculous a notion it is to suppose that only a nondetermined process could produce nondetermined output.
Hahahaha, very good. I am duly chastised :-) :-)
The effects of weather occur because of sufficient conditions — the properties of air and water, differential temperatures, and so on. In this sense it is necessary. The individual patterns are unpredictable, hence contingent. This is all the working of physical law and is not controversial.
Right. We can't prove that it nothing in a storm violates physical cause, but there is certainly no reason to postulate additional extra-physical causes.
What is controversial is how a determined, physical process could output contextual meaning, like this very paragraph. You can’t show how this is even possible in principle.
We cannot explain how our minds work. We have no theory of intelligence. However, there is no theory that shows in principle that the processes that result in our behaviors are anything but deterministic. That is the very question we are discussing! Nobody knows the answer. There are some things that we can show cannot be true in principle. We cannot in principle know the exact simultaneous location and momentum of a photon. We cannot in principle prove all true theorems in any formal logic of sufficient power. We know these things because of scientific and mathematical results that are well understood and tested. However, we have no similar reason to say that in principle we can never explain human mental abilities in terms of deterministic processes. We simply do not know.
The question is, can a deterministic process generate nondeterministic ouput without smuggling in nondeterministic input, if it even exists.
I think you are assuming that things like these posts we're writing are nondeterministic. This is confused. Here: Imagine you come across a room, and periodically a piece of paper comes out from a slot in the (locked) door with English writing on it - meaningful, grammatical sentences. Can you decide from looking at this writing that the process that created this writing is deterministic or not? No, of course you can't - it could well be a deterministic computer writing these things, right? There is nothing inherently "non-deterministic" about English sentences! Oh, you say that even if it's a computer writing these sentences, the programmer of the computer must have been non-deterministic? Well how do you know that? Maybe the programmer was actually another computer that was programmed to generate programs that output sentences. Ah, you say that the programmer of the program that wrote the program that output the sentences must have been non-deterministic? Well, how do you know? I trust you see where we're going here. Your insistence that humans are non-deterministic because they produce "non-deterministic" output is nothing but the argument from First Cause. You say the First Cause is non-deterministic; I ask "How do you know?"
RDF: No, you cannot observe that. There is no way of knowing if our output (our sentences, designs, plans, art, music, etc) is the result of a deterministic process or not. CR: I cannot observe that the output of human behavior is nondeterministic?
Yes that is correct. There is no way at all to tell if some artifact is produced by deterministic or non-deterministic means.
So are you saying that sentences are deterministic,...
First, it is not the sentence that is either deterministic or not, but rather we are questioning whether the process that produced the sentence was deterministic. With that said, the answer is we do not know whether the process (our minds) that produce sentences are deterministic or not.
... or just that nondeterministic output can be had by a purely deterministic process?
We do not know if our mental processes are deterministic or not, and nobody knows any way to answer the question.
If our behavior merely produced chaos, or just produced regular patterns reducible to simple descriptions, there would be no controversy: we could easily attribute this behavior to physical processes.
If our behavior was what you describe, tehre would be no controversy because nobody would be able to think or talk :-)
The fact that the controversy exists is demonstrative that there’s a problem.
A mystery indeed! How do human beings think and experience conscious awareness? In my view this is the central problem of our existence, and I've thought about it my entire long life.
CSI-rich output is neither chaotic nor necessary.
You are asserting your conclusion. We do not know how humans produce CSI.
So the all-important question is, can a purely deterministic process produce this sort of nondeterministic output?
I would say the question is, Can a deterministic process produce CSI?
I’ve argued that the warrant exists, because of the empirical fact of this CSI-generating behavior, to conclude, at least provisionally, that we make free choices,
CSI provides no clue as to whether or not mental processes are deterministic.
...barring some legitimate explanation of how to get nondeterministic output from a purely deterministic process.
You are assuming by default that human minds operate outside of laws of physics, and saying you want to continue believing that without evidence until somebody proves to you that deterministic processes can produce CSI. I think that is a dogmatic position. My position is that we do not know if human minds operate outside the laws of physics (that we know, or even that we do not yet understand).
It’s no less problematic accounting for sophisticated technology and communication by a deterministic process. It can’t be shown to be possible, even in principle.
Nobody knows.
I think there is warrant to accept that non-random contingent output requires a non-random contingent “process.”
There is no "warrant" to think that at all. Unlike gravity or electrons or other theoretical constructs, you have no way of characterizing this "non-random contingent process" in such a way that we can test for its existence.
Is contingency logically consistent with necessity, or are they different things?
I think discussing this will lead us into further confusion and won't help with the central issue, so let's skip that. The central issue is: Do human minds operate according to deterministic processes or not?
And I have noted that we actually observe non-random contingency in the output of human behavior. Are you taking issue with that observation?
Yes I take issue with that. We output CSI (there are problems with the definition of CSI too, but let's not go there - I accept that CSI means a type of complex form and function that we all can recognize as something that occurs in biological systems and human artifacts. How does CSI get into human artifacts? We don't know how we do it. Maybe our minds operate deterministically, and maybe they don't. How does CSI get into biological systems? We don't know this either. Maybe whatever lead to biological complexity operated deterministically, and maybe it didn't. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
How about we run a poll. Who else agrees with Stephen that it is logically impossible (not physically impossible) for a splinter to turn into a plank? 5for
Hi RD
You ought not imagine that I am insane and hallucinatory and think splinters morph into wood beams. Our argument is about epistemology, not about splinters or snow men. You think you ground your certainty of these things in 100% absolute certain self-evident logic, and I (and most epistemologists) disagree with that.
RD, we need to wind this thing down. The issue here is the Law of Causality. I accept it; you do not. We can only do so much in the abstract. Sooner or later, we have to use concrete examples so we can sort things out and make them clear. If I didn't understand the subject matter, I could not produce a relevant example. If you do understand the subject matter, then you will recognize its aptness. You think it is logically possible to get a wood beam from a splinter. I say that this proposition violates both the Law of Non-Contradiction and the derivative Law of Causality. Notice, that when we were discussing this in the abstract, I didn't just make the claim that the LoC is derived from the LNC, I did the derivation in your presence and in the presence of everyone else who cared to observe. Since you, nor anyone else, provided any rational objections, the matter should have been settled then and there. Still, you would not accept the Law of Causality as a general principle, even in the teeth of my abstract proof, so I returned to the concrete example, pointing out that you cannot get a two-by-four piece of wood from a splinter. This would would certainly violate the Law of Causality and, by extension, the Law of Non-Contradiction from which it is derived. It would mean that we were getting more in the effect than was in the cause. You disagree and insist that it is logically possible to get the former from the latter--to get more in the effect than is in the cause. I think, then, that it is fair to ask you to show how it is, indeed, logically possible--to provide the logical connection between the raw material (splinter) and the finished product (wood beam). Here is something to keep in mind. I have the advantage of knowing with apodictic certainty that you cannot defend your claim because I know with that same level of certainty that the Law of Causality is a valid rule of right reason for which there are no exceptions. That is why I can say boldly and with the utmost confidence that you will not even try to defend you claim. You will either simply repeat it or change the subject. Best Wishes StephenB
Sorry, my #385 above is addressed to RDFish's #382. Chance Ratcliff
Weren’t you previously defending the notion that computers make free choices by appealing to nondeterministic input?
No, I wasn’t. You had claimed that computers necessarily produce the same input given the same output, and I pointed out otherwise.[1] I also made a distinction between the deterministic operation of the computer and the output of any given program, which could be as nondeterministic as the input. Furthermore, I pointed out that the program itself could change nondeterministically, again given nondeterministic input.[2]
[1] We can revisit this claim. I asserted that a program will produce the same output on the same input from the starting state. This point still stands. [2] So you weren't using nondeterministic input as a justification that computers make free choices?
"I still don’t know what you mean by “random” however."
Random effects are contingent, and they conform to a probability distribution.
"I did not make a claim that computers make free choices; I simply pointed out that according to my definition, computers made free choices. It was not a statement of fact, but rather a matter of definition."
Your claim was made in your conversation with Phinehas at #211:
"My point was that no computer can be morally responsible for anything, because that which gives us moral accountability is absent from computers. While both humans and computers can make free choices, computers lack the human concept of morality."
The only distinction you were making was that computers lack moral accountability -- otherwise according to you, both humans and computers make free choices. Whatever notion of "free" you had in mind, you were imputing it to both computers and humans. Was this the determined free, or the nondetermined free?
"3) Programs can change themselves non-deterministically given non-deterministic input"
So you never intended this to be taken in the context of free choices?
Consistent with my definition, human beings output non-random, contingent digital strings like this very sentence, which is neither random nor explicable by physical law.
Just because we can’t explain it by physical law does not mean it is not produced by deterministic means. This is crucial for you to understand, and there can be two sorts of reasons for our inability to explain things.
How is it that contingent output which is not random can be explained by deterministic means, even in principle?
RDF: Now, you need to tell me how you can determine whether or not humans are free. What sort of test would you run? What sort of evidence would you provide?” CR: I would examine the outputs of human behavior, which are contingent but not random upon inspection, just as my definition of “free” indicates.
WHAT????????[1] No, Chance, you cannot decide if human thought is or is not deterministic by “examining the output” of human behavior. Can you decide if storms are deterministic by looking at weather maps, or following tornados? We assume that storms actually do proceed deterministically, because we have no reason to assume that something in the weather is transcending physical cause. But we can’t know that simply by looking at the weather!!![2]
[1] Wow, eight question marks! What would indicate more incredulity, nine question marks? Or perhaps you could duplicate some vowels: WHAAAAAT???????? Obviously my remarks are so beyond the pale, that any number of question marks, all caps, and the addition of extraneous vowels could not possibly convey how ridiculous a notion it is to suppose that only a nondetermined process could produce nondetermined output. [2] The effects of weather occur because of sufficient conditions -- the properties of air and water, differential temperatures, and so on. In this sense it is necessary. The individual patterns are unpredictable, hence contingent. This is all the working of physical law and is not controversial. What is controversial is how a determined, physical process could output contextual meaning, like this very paragraph. You can't show how this is even possible in principle.
"A deterministic process can produce nondeterministic output given nondeterministic input.[1] Nobody knows if “contingent, non-random” effects exist, period.[2]"
[1] Sure, so as long as we can feed a process nondeterministic input, if such a thing even exists, it can produce nondeterministic output, if such a thing even exists. So regardless of the process, nondeterministic output requires a nondeterministic factor. The question is, can a deterministic process generate nondeterministic ouput without smuggling in nondeterministic input, if it even exists. [2] The character arrangement of this sentence is contingent and non-random.
"You have no way of knowing if what we type is the output of a deterministic process or not. That is the whole point."
The whole point is that even a deterministic process requires a nondeterministic factor if it's going to produce nondeterministic output.
…and then observe that human beings can output non-random contingency.
No, you cannot observe that. There is no way of knowing if our output (our sentences, designs, plans, art, music, etc) is the result of a deterministic process or not.
I cannot observe that the output of human behavior is nondeterministic? So are you saying that sentences are deterministic, or just that nondeterministic output can be had by a purely deterministic process?
"Now let’s deal with the fact that while humans make “CSI”-rich things like books and sculptures, tornados just make a big mess. I think this is a critical distinction, and I believe we do not understand how CSI-rich human beings came to exist in the first place (i.e. I do not believe evolution explains it). However, we do not know how humans think, so we don’t know how we design things, make plans, etc. The explanation may turn out to reduce to physics as we currently understand (lots of people think this, like Dan Dennett), or it may require new physics (people like Roger Penrose think this), or it may require an entirely new understanding of mind (people like David Chalmers think this). Nobody knows the answer yet."
I think that's an important point. If our behavior merely produced chaos, or just produced regular patterns reducible to simple descriptions, there would be no controversy: we could easily attribute this behavior to physical processes. The fact that the controversy exists is demonstrative that there's a problem. CSI-rich output is neither chaotic nor necessary. So the all-important question is, can a purely deterministic process produce this sort of nondeterministic output? I've argued that the warrant exists, because of the empirical fact of this CSI-generating behavior, to conclude, at least provisionally, that we make free choices, barring some legitimate explanation of how to get nondeterministic output from a purely deterministic process.
Perhaps you disagree that the output of human behaviors can be both contingent and not random. Is that the case?
It isn’t that I disagree, but I have two problems with it. First, as I tried to point out, I don’t think anyone has characterized what it means to be non-random and non-deterministic. Either something happens for a reason (deterministic) or it doesn’t (random). This is a complicated point, but many people including me find the notion of neither-chance-nor-necessity conceptually problematic.[1] Second, there is simply no empirical way of deciding if human thought is free in this sense.[2]
[1] It's no less problematic accounting for sophisticated technology and communication by a deterministic process. It can't be shown to be possible, even in principle. [2] I think there is warrant to accept that non-random contingent output requires a non-random contingent "process."
However non-random contingency isn’t logically compatible with necessity, as far as I can tell.
BY DEFINITION non-random contingency is not consistent with necessity.[1] CR, you mix up what philosophers call analytic truths (things that are true by defintion) with synthetic truths (things that are true because we observe them to be true in the world). You have defined “non-random contingency” to mean “not random and not determined” – in other words, free.[2]
[1] Is contingency logically consistent with necessity, or are they different things? [2] And I have noted that we actually observe non-random contingency in the output of human behavior. Are you taking issue with that observation? Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB,
RDF: There is a difference between logical and physical possibility. SB: In this case, your dichotomous descriptions do not apply. We are discussing the logical possibilities of a physical process. I don’t know why you would not know what that means.
When something is logically impossible, it means it has no consistent meaning because involves a logical contradiction. There is a logical contradiction in saying "a square circle". When something is physical impossible, it means we have good reason to believe that it can't happen in our physical reality. There is no logical contradiction in saying "A piece of ice turned into a snowman". A piece of ice turning into a snowman is physically impossible, but it does not itself contain a logical contradiction. I suggest we drop this logical/physical distinction - it's getting very old - and focus on the main point of that aspect of our discussion, which is certainty. Here's what I think you and I are really arguing about in that regard: As far as I can tell, you believe that we can build an edifice of knowledge by starting with undeniable self-evident truths and using the Rules of Reason to derive more truths that only unreasonable people would disagree with. And that these truths encompass deep questions of existence such as the origin of the universe, the relation between mind and body, the nature of human volition, and so on. Is that a fair characterization of your view? In my opinion that is pie in the sky. The Logical Positivists had similar views about Rules of Reason and certainty (although they eschewed metaphysics altogether). There aren't any Logical Positivists any more and haven't been for about sixty years for many reasons, including the reasons I've given here: Logic does not encompass rationality, and epistemology has no objectively grounded foundation.
SB: You think it is logically possible that a piece of ice can give rise to a 10? snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe.” RDF: Yes, logically possible. SB: Show me how. Bridge the gap. Make the reconciliation.
It is logically possible because it does not involve a contradiction; it is physically impossible, however, so we can't possibly "bridge the gap"!
Are you kidding? If we cannot agree on something as simple and obvious as the fact that something cannot come from nothing, or that splinters cannot morph into wood beams, or that an ice cube cannot produce a 10’ snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe, what would be the point of reverting back to our discussion on the far more complicated issue of causality, free will, and libertarianism.
Stephen, please take a minute and try to act in good faith here. You and I have been writing back and forth, and I certainly take you for a sane and intelligent person who would not imagine that ice cubes can turn into snowmen. You ought to think the same of me - you ought not imagine that I am insane and hallucinatory and think splinters morph into wood beams. Our argument is about epistemology, not about splinters or snow men. You think you ground your certainty of these things in 100% absolute certain self-evident logic, and I (and most epistemologists) disagree with that.
If effects can occur without causes, there is no reason to talk to anyone about anything.
That's a weird thing to say. Why would we not want to talk to each other just because in certain contexts that are far removed from our human experience, things happened that violated cause-and-effect relationships? Effects don't occur without causes in our day-to-day existence; so what if they do in laboratory experiments or 13B years ago when the universe started? Also, if you read my posts here (yes, all 100 of them :-)) I've never said "effects occur without causes". What I think we have good reason to believe is that in the context of QM events, or the start of the universe, our conception of causality (which is connected to time) doesn't apply. That is a bit different.
I just pointed to your two latest contradictions on certainty and nothingness.
I didn't contradict myself. You are talking about things that don't exist but can still do things, which is a pretty blatant contradiction I'd say.
The next time that I argue that “nothing” cannot give being or movement that it doesn’t have, or that something that already has being or movement cannot also receive it, please don’t pretend that you don’t know what “nothing” means in that context so that you can avoid confronting the argument.
You said something that doesn't exist could receive being from something else. That is nonsense, because if it doesn't exist it can't do anything. Besides, it violates conservation of mass/energy. I don't even understand why we are talking about this.
RDF: If you look at what I’ve said about causality, you’ll see that my claim is that without locality and realism, causality as we understand it does not apply at the quantum scale. SB: With respect to our discussion, the only thing that Bell’s theorem shows is that the physical world and some effects are not local. What does that have to do with the Law of Causality and the fact that all effects require causes?
As you see, I've said "causality as we understand it does not apply". Obviously, our intuitive understanding of causality is local, and QM violates that aspect of causality. But it's not just that effects can happen anywhere: As we understand things, causes must temporally precede effects. In QM, an event at A has an effect at B, and the temporal order of these effects is undefined. This is not at all how we understand causality. The other context in which our understanding of causality doesn't apply is the beginning of the universe. You've ignored this point thus far, but what is your response? If cause-and-effect requires that the cause precede the effect in time, how can something cause something else when time does not exist?
Indeed, as I keep telling you, the experimental results they came up with presuppose the Law of Causality in the first place. If evidence could invalidate the assumptions of causality that informed it, then the evidence itself would be invalidated since it would be based on a false premise. LOL This is called sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.
No, that would only be true if all causality was denied. Nobody is doing that.
How is that relevant to the fact that every effect requires a cause? I already agree that Bell’s theorem seems to indicate that physical effects are not local. I have read from some that Bell’s theorem is wrong, but I feel no need to go down that road. I will grant it arguendo. The problem is that you, and perhaps others, are trying to make more out of it than can be rationally justified.
All I want to say with this is that our most fundamental concepts - time, space, matter, mind, causality - are not as simple and obvious and objectively certain as you take them to be.
Tell me how you get the finished product of a two-by-four from the raw materials of a splinter.
That would be physically impossible, but not logically impossible.
Well, if he does, then he is wrong. At that point, he would then have to explain on what basis the LNC could possibly be unreliable—without using the LNC. Good luck with that one.
Imagine your mind is malfunctioning in such a way that your beliefs about properly basic truths are incorrect. You believe that 1+1=3, and that A=~A, and you believe that you have sound justifications for these beliefs, even though all of these beliefs are completely wrong. No, if this was true of you, how would you know this is the case? You wouldn't, because your mind would be unreliable. So, how do you know that this is not true of you right now? You don't. Certainty is uncertain - and yes, you can quote me on that :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
HI RFD SB: That’s a nice try, but we are discussing the logical possibilities of a physical process. RDF
I don’t understand what this means. There is a difference between logical and physical possibility.
In this case, your dichotomous descriptions do not apply. We are discussing the logical possibilities of a physical process. I don’t know why you would not know what that means. “You think it is logically possible that a piece of ice can give rise to a 10' snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe.”
Yes, logically possible.
Show me how. Bridge the gap. Make the reconciliation.
I’m defining ice as “frozen water” – how about you?
Yep.
Listen, we’re just running around in silly semantic circles here, and I’d like to return to arguing about things that matter, such as the relation between libertarian will and morality, the evidence for libertarianism and dualism, and maybe other things.
Are you kidding? If we cannot agree on something as simple and obvious as the fact that something cannot come from nothing, or that splinters cannot morph into wood beams, or that an ice cube cannot produce a 10’ snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe, what would be the point of reverting back to our discussion on the far more complicated issue of causality, free will, and libertarianism. If effects can occur without causes, there is no reason to talk to anyone about anything.
As our other reader has pointed out, it is not that I contradict myself, it is that you seem incapable of reading and understanding these arguments.
I just pointed to your two latest contradictions on certainty and nothingness. Would you like for me to repeat them word for word.
As far as what “nothing” means, it means the absence of anything. Let us not play with words here, OK?
Yes, let’s not play with words. The next time that I argue that "nothing" cannot give being or movement that it doesn't have, or that something that already has being or movement cannot also receive it, please don’t pretend that you don’t know what “nothing” means in that context so that you can avoid confronting the argument.
If you look at what I’ve said about causality, you’ll see that my claim is that without locality and realism, causality as we understand it does not apply at the quantum scale.
With respect to our discussion, the only thing that Bell’s theorem shows is that the physical world and some effects are not local. What does that have to do with the Law of Causality and the fact that all effects require causes? Absolutely Nothing. Indeed, as I keep telling you, the experimental results they came up with presuppose the Law of Causality in the first place. If evidence could invalidate the assumptions of causality that informed it, then the evidence itself would be invalidated since it would be based on a false premise. LOL This is called sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.
Ok, your turn: Find some reference that explains why violations of Bell’s Theorem do not disprove locality + realism, or that explains why Bell’s Theorem isn’t violated.
How is that relevant to the fact that every effect requires a cause? I already agree that Bell’s theorem seems to indicate that physical effects are not local. I have read from some that Bell’s theorem is wrong, but I feel no need to go down that road. I will grant it arguendo. The problem is that you, and perhaps others, are trying to make more out of it than can be rationally justified. KF is the most reputable source of information you can find on this (or the only one!), that should tell you something. KF is one of the few practicing physicists that I know of who is well grounded in philosophy. This is a philosophical issue at least as much as it is a scientific one. A good physicist is not necessarily a good philosopher and cannot, therefore, address the relationship between QM and the LoC.
Still, let it not be said that I’m closed-minded, so if KF has something on Bell’s Theorem in particular explaining why locality+realism are not violated, I will read it.
I will pass the word along. “For that matter, how is it logically possible to get a two-by-four wooden beam from a wood splinter? How is it possible to get a gold bar from a gold sliver? Please step up to the plate and address the topic.”
None of these are logical contradictions. They are physical impossibilities – contingent, empirical truths that do not hold in all possible worlds. I’m really tired of explaining this to you because you won’t learn about epistemology 1A
I have my graduate credentials in philosophy. Please don’t play that card. Tell me how you get the finished product of a two-by-four from the raw materials of a splinter. Tell me how you get the gold bar from a gold sliver. Give me a logical explanation of how this is possible.
Plantinga says, by implication, that the LNC is subject to uncertainty
Well, if he does, then he is wrong. At that point, he would then have to explain on what basis the LNC could possibly be unreliable—without using the LNC. Good luck with that one. Best Wishes StephenB
Hi Chance,
RDF: I would hope you’d agree that computers have “internal states”! CR: Non sequitur.
Um, my hope is a non-sequitur? Really?
Weren’t you previously defending the notion that computers make free choices by appealing to nondeterministic input?
No, I wasn't. You had claimed that computers necessarily produce the same input given the same output, and I pointed out otherwise. I also made a distinction between the deterministic operation of the computer and the output of any given program, which could be as nondeterministic as the input. Furthermore, I pointed out that the program itself could change nondeterministically, again given nondeterministic input. We're sticking with your definitions of "free choices" here, right? So we agree that no matter what the input, computers do not make free choices.
Since you’ve been avoiding randomness, that leaves non-random contingency. Isn’t that the notion of freedom you were indicating, or were you actually defending compatibilism all along?
My position is that we do not know if human beings act according to deterministic causality or not.
If the latter, why did you formerly insist that programs make free choices if their inputs are nondeterministic?
I just explained this.
And what nondeterministic input did you have in mind, the “free” kind or the random kind?
I said whatever type of nondeterministic input the computer is given can be reflected in the output of the program or in changes to the program itself. Do not put the word free in scare quotes, because we know what we mean by this word: We are using your definition for the word, which is not random and not determined. OK? I still don't know what you mean by "random" however.
So when you made the claim that computers make free choices, you were justifying it with a definition that comports with determinism.
I did not make a claim that computers make free choices; I simply pointed out that according to my definition, computers made free choices. It was not a statement of fact, but rather a matter of definition.
Why then did you insist that computers can make free choices if their input is nondeterministic?
Once again: 1) Computers operate deterministically 2) Program output can be non-deterministic in the same way the input is 3) Programs can change themselves non-deterministically given non-deterministic input 4) According to our definition of free, computers are not free
Consistent with my definition, human beings output non-random, contingent digital strings like this very sentence, which is neither random nor explicable by physical law.
Just because we can't explain it by physical law does not mean it is not produced by deterministic means. This is crucial for you to understand, and there can be two sorts of reasons for our inability to explain things. First, the phenomena may be too complex and chaotic. Say a lightning bolt hits a particular tree. We cannot explain by physical law why that particular tree was hit; we can only generally describe the sorts of processes involved (build-up of static electricity in the cloud, ionization of air, and so on). But any given individual weather event can't be predicted or explained because weather is complex and chaotic. Second, we might not understand the relevant physics. We can't explain why there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe, because none of our theories of physics accounts for this. When it comes to human thought, we cannot explain it in any way at all. It may be that it is fully accounted for in general by the neural processes we're familiar with, but too complex and chaotic for us to understand and predict in detail. Or, it may be that we do not understand the relevant physics. And finally, I would say that the truth of the matter may be so different from what we call "physics" that our minds be entirely outside of physical causality. Nobody knows which of these might turn out to be the case.
RDF: Now, you need to tell me how you can determine whether or not humans are free. What sort of test would you run? What sort of evidence would you provide?” CR: I would examine the outputs of human behavior, which are contingent but not random upon inspection, just as my definition of “free” indicates.
WHAT???????? No, Chance, you cannot decide if human thought is or is not deterministic by "examining the output" of human behavior. Can you decide if storms are deterministic by looking at weather maps, or following tornados? We assume that storms actually do proceed deterministically, because we have no reason to assume that something in the weather is transcending physical cause. But we can't know that simply by looking at the weather!!! (I understand that humans produce complex form and function, or "CSI", or whatever you want to call it, and weather systems don't, but that is not relevant to this particular point - see below).
Is it logically consistent to suggest that a process which acts according to necessity would have contingent and non-random output, or does that result in a contradiction?
A deterministic process can produce nondeterministic output given nondeterministic input. Nobody knows if "contingent, non-random" effects exist, period.
I observe that human beings construct contingent, non-random entities, such as meaningful strings of text.
You have no way of knowing if what we type is the output of a deterministic process or not. That is the whole point.
Once again: 1) We agree on a definition of “free choice” that means not random or determined. 2) Using that definition, we agree computers cannot make free choices 3) The question is, Can humans make free choices? 4) My position is: we do not know if humans or anything else make free choices 5) Your argument regarding humans building machines is completely irrelevant, because you are simply assuming that humans are free and then concluding the exact same thing. And so, you have provided precisely zero evidence that humans can act in a way that is neither random nor determined. #1-4, fine. #5, nope.
Four out of five isn't bad :-)
I define “free” as non-random contingency
Right - that is our working definition; let's not change it! Free means non-random and non-deterministic.
...and then observe that human beings can output non-random contingency.
No, you cannot observe that. There is no way of knowing if our output (our sentences, designs, plans, art, music, etc) is the result of a deterministic process or not.
It’s simply consistent with the definition, just like your notion that computers make free choices if we define “free” in a way that’s consistent with determinism.
Your definition is fine. It's not a matter of being consistent with the definition here - the matter is that nobody knows how we think, and you can't tell from what we do any more than you could tell if a tornado is deterministic just by watching it. Now let's deal with the fact that while humans make "CSI"-rich things like books and sculptures, tornados just make a big mess. I think this is a critical distinction, and I believe we do not understand how CSI-rich human beings came to exist in the first place (i.e. I do not believe evolution explains it). However, we do not know how humans think, so we don't know how we design things, make plans, etc. The explanation may turn out to reduce to physics as we currently understand (lots of people think this, like Dan Dennett), or it may require new physics (people like Roger Penrose think this), or it may require an entirely new understanding of mind (people like David Chalmers think this). Nobody knows the answer yet.
Perhaps you disagree that the output of human behaviors can be both contingent and not random. Is that the case?
It isn't that I disagree, but I have two problems with it. First, as I tried to point out, I don't think anyone has characterized what it means to be non-random and non-deterministic. Either something happens for a reason (deterministic) or it doesn't (random). This is a complicated point, but many people including me find the notion of neither-chance-nor-necessity conceptually problematic. Second, there is simply no empirical way of deciding if human thought is free in this sense.
However non-random contingency isn’t logically compatible with necessity, as far as I can tell.
BY DEFINITION non-random contingency is not consistent with necessity. CR, you mix up what philosophers call analytic truths (things that are true by defintion) with synthetic truths (things that are true because we observe them to be true in the world). You have defined "non-random contingency" to mean "not random and not determined" - in other words, free. And nobody knows if anything in the universe acts in such a way. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
I don’t remember agreeing to this, but it doesn’t matter.
I would hope you’d agree that computers have “internal states”!
Non sequitur. And it's clear that I know this, since it's been a subject of discussion between the two of us.
Your above definition of “free” comports with determinism, not freedom.
And there you go assuming your conclusion! Compatibilists hold that freedom is compatible with physical determinism, and incompatbilists hold it is not. You can’t win a debate about free will simply by declaring or insisting that “freedom” be used in the incompatibilist sense! You actually have to make an argument.
Weren't you previously defending the notion that computers make free choices by appealing to nondeterministic input? Since you've been avoiding randomness, that leaves non-random contingency. Isn't that the notion of freedom you were indicating, or were you actually defending compatibilism all along? If the latter, why did you formerly insist that programs make free choices if their inputs are nondeterministic? And what nondeterministic input did you have in mind, the "free" kind or the random kind?
I could just as well define “free” to mean “unpredictable” and then we could both agree that coin flips are free choices under that definition.
Yes, precisely so. This is why it is so important to define the terms before we argue, instead of run around in circles using different definitions. That is why I said there are no right or wrong definitions (only definitions that are more or less useful). You can define words however you’d like, as long as you’re clear and consistent.
So when you made the claim that computers make free choices, you were justifying it with a definition that comports with determinism. Why then did you insist that computers can make free choices if their input is nondeterministic?
As long as we can define words any old way then anything can be free.
Yes, of course. Now that we’ve got that settled, if you’d like to use your definitions, that is fine – I’ve said that all along. Using your definitions, “free” means “neither random nor determined”. In that case, computers are most definitely not free. Moreover, using your definition, we do not know if humans – or anything else in the universe – are free. It is an open question.
Consistent with my definition, human beings output non-random, contingent digital strings like this very sentence, which is neither random nor explicable by physical law.
"So let’s avoid further confusion and stick to your definitions from now on, OK? Then we agree that computers are not free. Now, you need to tell me how you can determine whether or not humans are free. What sort of test would you run? What sort of evidence would you provide?"
I would examine the outputs of human behavior, which are contingent but not random upon inspection, just as my definition of "free" indicates. Is it logically consistent to suggest that a process which acts according to necessity would have contingent and non-random output, or does that result in a contradiction?
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE... For the 100th time, your definition is fine.
Your condescention is not appreciated.
"...do not make your same mistake of saying “Well, humans can build complex machines and things that aren’t free can’t, so humans must be free”. This is a logical error! You are assuming your conclusion, because you have failed to show that humans are free in the first place, and thus you cannot claim you already know that things that aren’t free can’t build complex machines!!!!"
I observe that human beings construct contingent, non-random entities, such as meaningful strings of text. This comports with my definition of free.
"I’m sorry Chance, but you were confused about most everything."
At least I'm consistent.
Once again: 1) We agree on a definition of “free choice” that means not random or determined. 2) Using that definition, we agree computers cannot make free choices 3) The question is, Can humans make free choices? 4) My position is: we do not know if humans or anything else make free choices 5) Your argument regarding humans building machines is completely irrelevant, because you are simply assuming that humans are free and then concluding the exact same thing. And so, you have provided precisely zero evidence that humans can act in a way that is neither random nor determined.
#1-4, fine. #5, nope. I define "free" as non-random contingency and then observe that human beings can output non-random contingency. It's simply consistent with the definition, just like your notion that computers make free choices if we define "free" in a way that's consistent with determinism. Perhaps you disagree that the output of human behaviors can be both contingent and not random. Is that the case? However non-random contingency isn't logically compatible with necessity, as far as I can tell. What sort of necessity mechanism could in theory have nondeterministic output? Chance Ratcliff
Hi Stephen,
That’s a nice try, but we are discussing the logical possibilities of a physical process.
I don't understand what this means. There is a difference between logical and physical possibility.
You have presented two contradictory arguments.
Ok, so you refuse to acknowledge what every freshman philosophy student learns for the test: There is a difference between physical and logical possibility. We won't be able to move forward on this topic unless you realize this.
Why don’t we just forget about the contradiction and stay with [a].
Both say the same thing.
You think it is logically possible that a piece of ice can give rise to a 10? snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe.
Yes, logically possible.
What is important that you understand is that ice cannot be what it is and also be something else. You cannot continually change the meanings of words in midstream and hope to remain credible.
I'm defining ice as "frozen water" - how about you? Listen, we're just running around in silly semantic circles here, and I'd like to return to arguing about things that matter, such as the relation between libertarian will and morality, the evidence for libertarianism and dualism, and maybe other things. You and I both understand that some things happen in our uniform and repeated experience, and some things don't. Pieces of ice don't turn into snowmen in our experience, and so we say it is "impossible". Philosophers would call this a contingent rather than a necessary fact. Let's move on.
It is also important that you realize that you cannot continually contradict yourself and expect to get away with it.
As our other reader has pointed out, it is not that I contradict myself, it is that you seem incapable of reading and understanding these arguments. If you won't even acknowledge the most fundamental aspects of epistemology, such as the limits of knowledge and the difference between logical and physical necessity, we really can't procede here. Instead of trying to construe everything I say as a contradiction, if you'd try to actually understand my points (rather than "winning a point" for yourself) we might be able to make progress.
Is that your argument? You don’t understand what kairosfocus is saying because you don’t like his writing style and you don’t understand my arguments that something cannot come from nothing because you don’t know what “nothing” means? Is that really where you want to go?
WHAT??? You are the one trying to argue from authority here! And of all the authorities you choose, it's KF, the anonymous "professional physicist" who writes endless screeds that - IMHO - reads like crackpottery of the first degree. Let's leave KF out of this, please, and let neither of us try to argue from authority, deal? As far as what "nothing" means, it means the absence of anything. Let us not play with words here, OK?
You need to spend less time questioning my familiarity with the subject and more time explaining how and why you think all these studies challenge causality. Kairosfocus and I are saying that these studies don’t prove what you think they prove. The issue is all about interpretation.
Here is a good explanation from a reputable source of what I'm talking about: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bell-theorem/
Bell's Theorem is the collective name for a family of results, all showing the impossibility of a Local Realistic interpretation of quantum mechanics.
If you look at what I've said about causality, you'll see that my claim is that without locality and realism, causality as we understand it does not apply at the quantum scale. There are hundreds of other reputable sources explaining the implications of Bell's Theorem - just Google it. Ok, your turn: Find some reference that explains why violations of Bell's Theorem do not disprove locality + realism, or that explains why Bell's Theorem isn't violated. If KF is the most reputable source of information you can find on this (or the only one!), that should tell you something. Still, let it not be said that I'm closed-minded, so if KF has something on Bell's Theorem in particular explaining why locality+realism are not violated, I will read it.
How is it logically possible to get a 10? snowman with a face and a pipe from a piece of ice without a human designer?
SB, what do you think the difference between logical and physical is?
For that matter, how is it logically possible to get a two-by-four wooden beam from a wood splinter? How is it possible to get a gold bar from a gold sliver? Please step up to the plate and address the topic.
None of these are logical contradictions. They are physical impossibilities - contingent, empirical truths that do not hold in all possible worlds. I'm really tired of explaining this to you because you won't learn about epistemology 1A.
RDF: Plantinga is one of the most famous contemporary philosophers, and is responsible for new and creative Christian apologetics, and has written entire books on these sorts of issues – possible worlds, epistemic warrant, self-evident propositions, reliabilism, and so on. SB: How do you expect me to respond to meaningless generalities like that. It is ironic that you accuse would me of oversimplifying. What does Plantinga have to say about the Law of Non-Contradiction and our capacity to be certain about it. This is not a hard question. You either know the answer or you do not.
Here's a bit of logic for you: 1) Plantinga says that all knowledge is subject to uncertainty 2) Knowledge of the LNC is in fact knowledge 3) Therefore Plantinga says, by implication, that the LNC is subject to uncertainty I'm not going to play this game any more. Let's agree to disagree on the following, and we won't have to debate it: 1) SB believes there is only one sort of possibility, and denies possible world logics; RDF believes that epistemologists categorize possibility into logical, physical, and other types as well, and that possible world logic underlies much of contemporary philosophy, including the well-known Christian apologetics of Plantinga. WE AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS 2) SB believes that we can justify with absolute 100% certainty any number of facts about both logic and the world; RDF denies this, and points out that Plantinga and virtually every other philosopher agrees with him and acknowledges limits to all certainty. WE AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS I'm not sure what there is left to talk about, but at least we've clarified our differences. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish:
I was assuming you understood the difference between things that are logically impossible and physically impossible. I’m sorry – apparently you aren’t familiar with these concepts.
Related things to read about include “possible worlds”, and subjunctive possibility in general.
That's a nice try, but we are discussing the logical possibilities of a physical process. You have presented two contradictory arguments. [a] it is possible to get a snowman from a piece of ice (a physical process) and [b] it is impossible to get a snowman from a piece of ice (a physical process). Why don't we just forget about the contradiction and stay with [a]. You think it is logically possible that a piece of ice can give rise to a 10' snowman with facial features and a corncob pipe.
What’s important is that you understand the difference between this logical and physical (or necessary and contingent) possibility. We really can’t have this conversation until you do.
What is important that you understand is that ice cannot be what it is and also be something else. You cannot continually change the meanings of words in midstream and hope to remain credible. It is also important that you realize that you cannot continually contradict yourself and expect to get away with it. as in, [a] we can never have 100% certitude [b] we can have 100% certitude about having no certitude or [a] “Nothing” is not something that can give or receive things." [b] "You can’t talk about the properties of nothing – not even the properties it doesn’t have – because there is no “it” to talk about." If you don't understand why [b] contradicts [a], go back and reread it.
I’m sorry, but I can’t understand what this “professional physicist” writes, and my belief is that he does not either. In any case, there are thousands of books and papers available that describe Bell’s Theorem, and all of them agree: quantum causality does not respect local realism
Is that your argument? You don't understand what kairosfocus is saying because you don't like his writing style and you don't understand my arguments that something cannot come from nothing because you don't know what "nothing" means? Is that really where you want to go?
As I’ve explained a number of times, you are talking about different aspects of QM. I’m not talking about uncertainty (or virtual particle formation, etc). Rather, I’m talking about Bell’s Theorem violations, nonlocality and non-realism. If you don’t know what these are, you really oughtn’t to take a position on the matter.
You need to spend less time questioning my familiarity with the subject and more time explaining how and why you think all these studies challenge causality. Kairosfocus and I are saying that these studies don't prove what you think they prove. The issue is all about interpretation.
The person building the snowman does the face and the pipe, right? Without a human being, the snowman ending up with a face would be a physical – but not a logical – impossibility!
How is it logically possible to get a 10' snowman with a face and a pipe from a piece of ice without a human designer? For that matter, how is it logically possible to get a two-by-four wooden beam from a wood splinter? How is it possible to get a gold bar from a gold sliver? Please step up to the plate and address the topic.
Plantinga is one of the most famous contemporary philosophers, and is responsible for new and creative Christian apologetics, and has written entire books on these sorts of issues – possible worlds, epistemic warrant, self-evident propositions, reliabilism, and so on.
How do you expect me to respond to meaningless generalities like that. It is ironic that you accuse would me of oversimplifying. What does Plantinga have to say about the Law of Non-Contradiction and our capacity to be certain about it. This is not a hard question. You either know the answer or you do not. StephenB
Hi StephenB,
RDF: They both are: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible. SB: No. Sorry, but that will not work. You argued [a] It is possible to get a snowman from ice And you also argued [b] It is not possible to get a snowman from ice. That is a contradiction. It is either possible or impossible.
I was assuming you understood the difference between things that are logically impossible and physically impossible. I'm sorry - apparently you aren't familiar with these concepts. Here is a very short, simple reference to start with that will explain this to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_possibility What you'll learn is that there are different types of impossibilities. I've been using these terms for some time thinking you understood them; if you read up on logical/physical possibilities I think we can more forward a bit. Related things to read about include "possible worlds", and subjunctive possibility in general. You'll find there are even more types of possibility (nomological possibility, which is sort of like physical possibility, and metaphysical possibility, which is sort of like logical possibility) and so on. It gets quite complicated and controversial of course, which is what I meant when I said "epistemology is not solved".
The Law of Non-Contradiction allows for no excluded middle (as in “Physically impossibe, but logically possible”). You are trying to have it both ways.
Stephen, you have a tendency to over-simplify pretty much everything. You'll probably roll your eyes and complain that I make things too complicated, but if you spend just a little while reading you'll see it really isn't me. Plantinga is one of the most famous contemporary philosophers, and is responsible for new and creative Christian apologetics, and has written entire books on these sorts of issues - possible worlds, epistemic warrant, self-evident propositions, reliabilism, and so on.
I am asking you to affirm one of your arguments and negate the other.
If you have a favorite philosopher or theologian, from Plantinga to William Craig to... whomever, you'll find that they would disagree entirely with your naive view of possibility. Here is what we need to agree on: * Everything that is logically impossible is also physically impossible * Not everything that is physically impossible is logically impossible. * Anti-gravity boots are physically impossible, but logically possible. * Drawing a Euclidean triangle with interior angles not summing to 180deg is both physically and logically impossible
According to the Law of Identity, which you claim to believe in, Ice is what it is and is not something else. Ice doesn’t expand. If it did expand, it wouldn’t be ice.
Ice actually does expand, but not to the extent we're talking about here... anyway that's not important. What's important is that you understand the difference between this logical and physical (or necessary and contingent) possibility. We really can't have this conversation until you do. But what you'll find is that - of course - philsophers argue about all the details too, and then there are paradoxes and unresolved problems... epistemology is really quite a mess!
You have already violated your own principle. You claim to have imagined something that violates logic by imagining ice can expand. Ice doesn’t expand.
I haven't violated my own principle, Stephen. First, ice actually does expand:
The effect of expansion during freezing can be dramatic, and ice expansion is a basic cause of freeze-thaw weathering of rock in nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice You may quibble that it is water expanding rather than ice, but that isn't clear, and people say "ice expansion", and... it doesn't matter at all to our discussion. The point is this: Whether or not ice (or iron or granite) expands are physical, contingent facts that could be different without involving logical contradction.
Read kairosfocus’ (who is a professional physicist)...
I'm sorry, but I can't understand what this "professional physicist" writes, and my belief is that he does not either. In any case, there are thousands of books and papers available that describe Bell's Theorem, and all of them agree: quantum causality does not respect local realism.
We already know about the “hard results” of the experiments. The intellectual task is in determining what they mean. The one thing we can be sure they don’t mean is that causality has been invalidated.
As I've explained a number of times, you are talking about different aspects of QM. I'm not talking about uncertainty (or virtual particle formation, etc). Rather, I'm talking about Bell's Theorem violations, nonlocality and non-realism. If you don't know what these are, you really oughtn't to take a position on the matter.
Putting aside the problem of ice expanding (Ice doesnt’ expand), you have yet to explain how you get the snowman’s facial features and his corncob pipe.
Huh? The person building the snowman does the face and the pipe, right? Without a human being, the snowman ending up with a face would be a physical - but not a logical - impossibility! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFishL
On the contrary, this claim [acausal quantum events] is supported by the most successful scientific theory in history, and a gigantic mountain of precisely confirmed data. You are really looking a bit naive on this one. Tell me: Do you understand Bell’s Theorem and its implications? These are not controversial findings or interpretations – they are hard results of physics experiments, like it or not.
Read kairosfocus' (who is a professional physicist) comments @374 and check his reference @375. We already know about the "hard results" of the experiments. The intellectual task is in determining what they mean. The one thing we can be sure they don't mean is that causality has been invalidated.
They both are: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible.
Putting aside the problem of ice expanding (Ice doesnt' expand), you have yet to explain how you get the snowman's facial features and his corncob pipe. StephenB
RDFish:
They both are: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible.
No. Sorry, but that will not work. You argued [a] It is possible to get a snowman from ice And you also argued [b] It is not possible to get a snowman from ice. That is a contradiction. It is either possible or impossible. The Law of Non-Contradiction allows for no excluded middle (as in "Physically impossibe, but logically possible"). You are trying to have it both ways. I am asking you to affirm one of your arguments and negate the other. According to the Law of Identity, which you claim to believe in, Ice is what it is and is not something else. Ice doesn’t expand. If it did expand, it wouldn’t be ice. By assuming it can expand, you are saying that it is what it is and is also something else, violating both the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction. Thus, when you say that it is possible for ice to expand into a snowman, you are saying that ice is something other than it is, violating the Law of Identity that you claim to believe in. Again, you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to say that ice is ice, but it need not be. Ridiculous.
Try to imagine a square circle, a married bachelor, a number both greater and less than 4, something that is both all red and all green, and so on. We can’t picture these things because they violate logic – they don’t make any sense.
You have already violated your own principle. You claim to have imagined something that violates logic by imagining ice can expand. Ice doesn’t expand. It is what it is. You tried to imagine ice being ice and also something else at the same time and in the same sense, violating the very principle that you claim to hold. StephenB
OOPS: The WAC on quantum theory is here on. kairosfocus
Onlookers: It is time for a bit of "Chorus" walking on stage. Observe the rhetorical tactics being used to duck, dodge, obfuscate, bend into pretzels and generally avoid addressing the foundational significance of first principles of right reason. In particular, note the effect of formally acknowledging at least some aspects on one hand then subtly pulling off the table again with the other. Observe also, the effect of refusing to attend to accessible contrary evidence, thus continuing misrepresentations, here multiplied by a projection that no it is you who don't understand. That turnabout, in a context where onlookers are not sufficiently alert to what has been going on, is a very powerful means to cloud the issue. Indeed, it has long been a major tool used by ruthless propagandists. I highlight to you, how on this general topic, there has long been a distortion game, starting with how Paley's Watch argument from 1802 on has been distorted by the simple expedient of pretending that all that Paley had to say that was relevant was in Ch 1 of his Book, when Ch 2 IMMEDIATELY goes on to address major points on the what about reproduction/self replication talking point. But if, in a situation, one is in a position to get away with such a tactic of strawman caricature, that can be very powerful. A similar case is of course the contemporary attempt to brand design thought a species of "Creationism," Creationism havng long since been successfully smeared as irrational, dangerous and potentially an enemy of academic and general freedom. After all, look at the Inquisition, the rack and the thumbscrews. (What is not usually acknowledged -- notice the poisonous, ad hominem laced, set alight strawman game again -- is that by far and away most Creationsts are convinced small-d democrats, that [so little known that one has to give a handy reference] biblical principles and people consciously living by them had a lot to do with the rise of modern liberty and democratic systems of government in the aftermath of the reformation, and that the Judaeo- Christian worldview and Christians had a lot positively to do with the rise of modern science, not least because of the vision of a God who is Reason himself [LOGOS] and who made us in his image and a world that is intelligible, working in an orderly way on rational principles.) Similarly, observe the unwillingness to face the obvious and immediate corollaries of there being identifiable things, say A in the wider world, W, such that we can distinguish between A and NOT-A: W = {A | NOT-A } Thus immediately: {A | NOT-A } {A | NOT-A } That is, the law of identity, that A is itself and is thus distinct from not A ,inherently stands with that A cannot also be NOT-A, that as well, on dichotomy, there is not a third option to being A or NOT-A. Similarly, the objectors, ignore the principle of sufficient reason and its immediate corollaries on causality on contingency, thence the implication of the possibility of necessary beings. As to the issue of mind, body and genuinely responsible freedom of agents, the pivotal point that we know what blind necessity and chance can credibly do on the gamut of our solar system or the observed cosmos, and it is utterly outside the range of what agency routinely does, is ignored. never mind that to object, the objectors have to provide examples of functionally specific, meaningful strings of symbols in English that the blind resources of the observed cosmos, acting for its lifespan, could not credibly find. That is, on recognising that we are intelligent designers, we see that such designers manifest a radically diverse signature form what blind watchmaker mechanisms can do. Intelligent watchmakers have to be recognised as a separate category of causal factor, noting as well that such design cam bars and stored digital programs to instruct programmed entities, whether the glorified toys of the C18 or the looms using punched cards or tape, or the modern car engine, or the digital stored program computer. That factor is functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I for short. We then must observe, that unless an agent is sufficiently free and responsible, he cannot do more than be an automaton carrying out a program. Internal states for agents must go beyond merely carrying out programs however they got there, and as we saw in outline, chance is not enough to break the iron implications of the scope of sampling possible in our solar system or observed cosmos, relative to the exponential explosion of possible and overwhelmingly non-functional configs of components. In short, unless agents are self-moved, initiating causes, we are locked into an endless chain of physical force per deterministic laws and chance disturbances, which simply cannot account for reason and moral responsibility. That is, the absurdities of a priori ideological evolutionary materialism (these days, usually dressed up in a lab coat)and its accommodationist fellow traveller systems, emerge. (Cf, here on.) You will note that several times above, an actual framework for an architecture was highlighted, that would account for the phenomena of intent, intelligent purpose, reason etc above and beyond blind forces, the Smith Model [there is a summary and an onward link to a book length monograph by Smith . . . ] with a two tier controller. One being in the loop the other supervisory to the loop. Already in primitive forms, we have adaptive and learning cybernetic control systems that give us an inkling as to what such could entail. The suggestion that Quantum systems are somehow beyond cause is a characteristic symptom of those overly influenced by popularisation and/or distortions of the significance of QM on such matters. I refer to the UD WAC here and onward. But the overall pattern should be clear, we are not dealing here with a genuine responsiveness to evidence, but a locked-in system that is significantly incoherent but which is reinforced by powerful social forces and factions. This is a part of the ongoing disintegration of our civilisation, which is accelerating as men begin to forget or willfully defy the canons of reason and the principles of morality and justice. To such, I say: listen to the ghost of Alcibiades, on the folly of refusing correction of one's political ambitions, here. Socrates' take-down of ignorance pretending to knowledge, in Alcibiades I [and yes we know that is not likely to be genuinely from Plato's hand], is worth clipping:
SOCRATES: You do, then, mean, as I was saying, to come forward in a little while in the character of an adviser of the Athenians? And suppose that when you are ascending the bema, I pull you by the sleeve and say, Alcibiades, you are getting up to advise the Athenians-do you know the matter about which they are going to deliberate, better than they?--How would you answer? ALCIBIADES: I should reply, that I was going to advise them about a matter which I do know better than they . . . . SOCRATES: A man is a good adviser about anything, not because he has riches, but because he has knowledge? ALCIBIADES: Assuredly. SOCRATES: Whether their counsellor is rich or poor, is not a matter which will make any difference to the Athenians when they are deliberating about the health of the citizens; they only require that he should be a physician. ALCIBIADES: Of course . . . . SOCRATES: But can they be said to understand that about which they are quarrelling to the death [i.e. matters of justice and the like triggering wars]? ALCIBIADES: Clearly not. SOCRATES: And yet those whom you thus allow to be ignorant are the teachers to whom you are appealing. [A had claimed to have learned from the many, on second thought, and S is now taking apart that appeal] ALCIBIADES: Very true. SOCRATES: But how are you ever likely to know the nature of justice and injustice, about which you are so perplexed, if you have neither learned them of others nor discovered them yourself? ALCIBIADES: From what you say, I suppose not . . . . [Socrates then corrected, it was not Socrates the questioner but Alcibiades the speaker who drew out his own ignorance and the ignorance of those he appealed to as his teachers.] . . . SOCRATES: Then, Alcibiades, the result may be expressed in the language of Euripides. I think that you have heard all this ‘from yourself, and not from me’; nor did I say this, which you erroneously attribute to me, but you yourself, and what you said was very true. For indeed, my dear fellow, the design which you meditate of teaching what you do not know, and have not taken any pains to learn, is downright insanity . . . . ALCIBIADES: I solemnly declare, Socrates, that I do not know what I am saying. Verily, I am in a strange state, for when you put questions to me I am of different minds in successive instants. SOCRATES: And are you not aware of the nature of this perplexity, my friend? ALCIBIADES: Indeed I am not. SOCRATES: Do you suppose that if some one were to ask you whether you have two eyes or three, or two hands or four, or anything of that sort, you would then be of different minds in successive instants? ALCIBIADES: I begin to distrust myself, but still I do not suppose that I should. SOCRATES: You would feel no doubt; and for this reason-because you would know? ALCIBIADES: I suppose so. SOCRATES: And the reason why you involuntarily contradict yourself is clearly that you are ignorant? ALCIBIADES: Very likely. SOCRATES: And if you are perplexed in answering about just and unjust, honourable and dishonourable, good and evil, expedient and inexpedient, the reason is that you are ignorant of them, and therefore in perplexity. Is not that clear? . . . . SOCRATES: Or if you were on a voyage, would you bewilder yourself by considering whether the rudder is to be drawn inwards or outwards, or do you leave that to the pilot, and do nothing? ALCIBIADES: It would be the concern of the pilot. SOCRATES: Then you are not perplexed about what you do not know, if you know that you do not know it? ALCIBIADES: I imagine not. SOCRATES: Do you not see, then, that mistakes in life and practice are likewise to be attributed to the ignorance which has conceit of knowledge? ALCIBIADES: Once more, what do you mean? SOCRATES: I suppose that we begin to act when we think that we know what we are doing? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: But when people think that they do not know, they entrust their business to others? ALCIBIADES: Yes . . . . SOCRATES: And can there be any matters greater than the just, the honourable, the good, and the expedient? ALCIBIADES: There cannot be. SOCRATES: And these, as you were saying, are what perplex you? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: But if you are perplexed, then, as the previous argument has shown, you are not only ignorant of the greatest matters, but being ignorant you fancy that you know them? ALCIBIADES: I fear that you are right. SOCRATES: And now see what has happened to you, Alcibiades! I hardly like to speak of your evil case, but as we are alone I will: My good friend, you are wedded to ignorance of the most disgraceful kind, and of this you are convicted, not by me, but out of your own mouth and by your own argument; wherefore also you rush into politics before you are educated. Neither is your case to be deemed singular. For I might say the same of almost all our statesmen, with the exception, perhaps of your guardian, Pericles . . .
The challenge of soundly and persuasively addressing "the ignorance which has conceit of knowledge" has long been on the table, and the best thing to do about it is to make sure of our way from foundations of reasoning on up. Where as Socrates showed by successively questioning Alcibiades' notions, leading that worthy to find himself in a perplexity of self-contradiction [revealing the ignorance which has conceit of knowledge], the laws of thought are absolutely crucial. Which leads me to seriously question why it is that so many in our day would take such controls on the ignorance which has conceit of knowledge off the table. KF kairosfocus
Hi 5for, Glad you've been enjoying the discussion! And thank you for trying to explain this to StephenB.
Stephen you seem to be wilfully missing RDFish’s points
I know it gets frustrating when I repeat and clarify these points endlessly and he still doesn't seem to get it. But I honestly don't think it is "willful" that he does it... you know? :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
Causality is not self-evident, and obviously you cannot get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice, as we know from experience (rather than logic) that such things do not happen.
So, you have changed your earlier position from this:
Causality is not self-evident. Neither is the fact that you can’t get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice! What if ice expanded when you sculpted with it? No logical contradication there at all.
This is exactly the same argument. The first says: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible. The second says the exact same thing: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible.
Which one is your final argument
They both are: Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible.
If, as you say, we can’t conceive logical contradictions, ...
That's right. Try to imagine a square circle, a married bachelor, a number both greater and less than 4, something that is both all red and all green, and so on. We can't picture these things because they violate logic - they don't make any sense.
...then if follows that we cannot conceive of something both existing to give movement and, at the same time, not existing to receive movement, which would be exactly the same thing as conceiving movement without a cause. At best, you could conceive the beginning of movement.
I imagine something at rest, and then imagine it moving without antecedent cause. No problem. Let's look at the phrases you use: "existing to give movement" and "not existing to receive movement". I'm not even sure what these phrases mean. I'm talking about something that exists - like an 8-ball - sitting at rest, and then starting to move. It exists the whole time; it's just at one moment it is still and the next moment it is moving and nothing interacted with it. There is simply nothing logically contradictory about that at all!
RDF: 1) Knowledge is never 100% certain (even per Christian foundationalists) SB: That is simply a claim without support.
Wait a minute: Are you saying that my claim about Christian foundationalists is unsupported, or are you saying that these foundationalists (e.g. Plantinga) are making unsupported claims? If you meant the former, I'll go find the relevant citations, but only if you promise to concede the point if I do. If you meant the latter, then we can agree to disagree - me and Plantinga and every other epistemologist on one side, and you on the other.
Indeed, I have already proven that we can be 100% certain that you cannot get a snowman from a piece of ice and you finally agreed after first taking the opposite position.
Getting the snowman is physically, but not logically, impossible. But even those things we believe are physically impossible we can never know with 100% certitude, because there is no such thing as 100% certitude. Honestly, Stephen: Have you ever read anything at all about epsitemology?
Are you going to revert back again to your a) argument after changing to the b) argument.
I've never changed one single position on anything since we began debating. Sorry to disappoint!
RDF: 2) Casaulity as we conceive of it does not appear to apply at quantum scales or any context where temporal relations do not apply (e.g. if spacetime did not exist). SB: This is simply another claim with no support.
On the contrary, this claim is supported by the most successful scientific theory in history, and a gigantic mountain of precisely confirmed data. You are really looking a bit naive on this one. Tell me: Do you understand Bell's Theorem and its implications? These are not controversial findings or interpretations - they are hard results of physics experiments, like it or not.
Indeed, I have already proven the Law of Causality with the Law of Non-Contradition. You had no answer.
I answered; you just don't understand. Let's try again. First let's take a look at your attempt to derive causality from LNC ... and why it doesn't actually make sense:
An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have.
This makes no sense because if something doesn't exist it can't receive anything and it can't have or not have anything. It can't begin or end or do anything at all... because there is no "it". You are referring to nothing as though it was already something.
It can either receive being from itself or from something else.
As Kant famously demonstrated, existence is not a predicate. "Nothing" is not something that can give or receive things. You can't talk about the properties of nothing - not even the properties it doesn't have - because there is no "it" to talk about. But beyond this difficulty with your formulation, I've already pointed out that we're talking about two types of relationships that you are calling "cause-and-effect". The first is when A causes B to exist. I've already said that this kind of "causality" violates the most fundamental laws of science - the conservation laws - and it has never been observed to happen. The second is when A causes B to change (has some effect on B, for example to change its color or its location or its motion or its size or...). That is the sort of causality that science deals with. Here is what you said about that sort of causality:
If one does not have ... movement, it must be received from something else. It is a self-evident truth.
If it was self-evident, Newton would not have had to articulate it in his first law of motion. Really, you can test this for yourself: Just try to imagine something that is at rest, and then begins to move. It's easy, right? No contradiction, no logical inconsistency. As it turns out, this doesn't happen in our world, but it can in some possible world. There is no possible world in which there exists a square circle. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
I don’t remember agreeing to this, but it doesn’t matter.
I would hope you'd agree that computers have "internal states"!
Your above definition of “free” comports with determinism, not freedom.
And there you go assuming your conclusion! Compatibilists hold that freedom is compatible with physical determinism, and incompatbilists hold it is not. You can't win a debate about free will simply by declaring or insisting that "freedom" be used in the incompatibilist sense! You actually have to make an argument.
I could just as well define “free” to mean “unpredictable” and then we could both agree that coin flips are free choices under that definition.
Yes, precisely so. This is why it is so important to define the terms before we argue, instead of run around in circles using different definitions. That is why I said there are no right or wrong definitions (only definitions that are more or less useful). You can define words however you'd like, as long as you're clear and consistent.
As long as we can define words any old way then anything can be free.
Yes, of course. Now that we've got that settled, if you'd like to use your definitions, that is fine - I've said that all along. Using your definitions, "free" means "neither random nor determined". In that case, computers are most definitely not free. Moreoever, using your definition, we do not know if humans - or anything else in the universe - are free. It is an open question.
My definition is clearly more appropriate. Free: neither determined nor random.
Your definitions are just fine.
This gives us non-random contingency, which is necessary for any reasonable understanding of freedom.
This is the entire debate, Chance. You can't simply declare that your view is the only reasonable one. You actually must argue that other conceptions are incoherent, or inconsistent, or at odds with reality. So let's avoid further confusion and stick to your definitions from now on, OK? Then we agree that computers are not free. Now, you need to tell me how you can determine whether or not humans are free. What sort of test would you run? What sort of evidence would you provide? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not make your same mistake of saying "Well, humans can build complex machines and things that aren't free can't, so humans must be free". This is a logical error! You are assuming your conclusion, because you have failed to show that humans are free in the first place, and thus you cannot claim you already know that things that aren't free can't build complex machines!!!!
You already agree that free choices cannot be determined or random.
In other words I accept your definition. This is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of definition. You choose to define "free" as "not determined or random", and that's fine, but you haven't argued that humans or anything else actually are free in this sense.
My definition is jointly exhaustive of all types of causation under discussion, when taken with chance and necessity.
For the 100th time, your definition is fine.
Exactly what is confused about that?
I'm sorry Chance, but you were confused about most everything. Once again: 1) We agree on a definition of "free choice" that means not random or determined. 2) Using that definition, we agree computers cannot make free choices 3) The question is, Can humans make free choices? 4) My position is: we do not know if humans or anything else make free choices 5) Your argument regarding humans building machines is completely irrelevant, because you are simply assuming that humans are free and then concluding the exact same thing. And so, you have provided precisely zero evidence that humans can act in a way that is neither random nor determined. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
5for
There is no contradiction in the 2 snowman comments.
The contradiction is clear. Can is the opposite of cannot. Since you want to get in the game, and since you seem to identify with RD's denial of causality, respond to the relevant question: If a snowman can come from a piece of ice, how do you get the facial features and the corncob pipe? While you are at it, explain how you get a two-by-four beam from a wood. splinter. StephenB
PS: Once we see the significance of enabling, on/off, necessary causal factors, the line about quantum events being causeless evaporates. No radioactive atom, no possibility of decay. Not knowing the SUFFICIENT cluster of causal factors to sustain a deterministic causal description is not to be confused with the notion that quantum phenomena such as decay have no cause. (We do know sufficient factors to set up a stochastic circumstance and can usually identify some necessary ones.)But as usual, we have entrenched talking points, stoutly defended against all correction. kairosfocus
F/N: As I passed by the claim that causality is not self-evident caught my eye. It seems RDF is still refusing to read that which would correct and inform him. (Revealing, at this stage, as an investment of a few minutes would have sufficed at any time, e.g. here on.) Strictly, what is self evident is the principle that if a given distinct thing, A is, then we may ask and seek to answer why that is so. Causality exists as an immediate corollary once A is contingent -- it has a beginning, or may cease, or is composite, etc. Where A has not got the implied dependency on external enabling factors, it would instead be a necessary being. If A were a candidate for such, but the set of attributes required contradict, A would be an impossibility such as a square circle.) The identity cluster is similar, once a distinct A exists in the world: W = { A | NOT_A }. We IMMEDIATELY see the instantly existing reality that A has a stable identity, it cannot also be NOT-A and that thanks to the dichotomy there is not a third option. All the while that RDF tries to affirm such with one hand and take away with the other, we see how refusing to acknowledge such lands him in the boat of using said principles while seeking to undermine. In particular it may be asked why certain contingent linguistic entities -- posts by RDF -- exist in the thread. And we see they are contingent beings exhibiting FSCO/I, signs of the presence of a causal factor beyond the reach of blind chance and mechanical necessity, Design, here by an intelligent agent. One, who to be able to compose, has to have freedom of choice and rational mind. KF kairosfocus
I have been enjoying this conversation, but Stephen you seem to be wilfully missing RDFish's points. There is no contradiction in the 2 snowman comments. We know that ice doesn't expand like this in real life, but there is nothing logically incoherent about it doing so. It reminds me for example of the scenes in Terminator 2 where the terminator's hand could suddenly expand into a hugely long metal prong. It looked crazy and you know that no substance we are aware of can do this, but it's not illogical. We can conceive of it, we can even create a film of it (it would be trivial to create a special effect in a film of a piece of ice expanding into a snowman). But as RD keeps saying, you can't conceive of a square circle, and similarly we could not create one with special effects. But who knows maybe in the future we will invent a kind of ice that can expand into a snowman. 5for
RDFish:
Causality is not self-evident, and obviously you cannot get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice, as we know from experience (rather than logic) that such things do not happen.
So, you have changed your earlier position from this:
Causality is not self-evident. Neither is the fact that you can’t get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice! What if ice expanded when you sculpted with it? No logical contradication there at all.
Which one is your final argument a) Is it your first argument: A piece of ice can expand into a snowman through the sculpting process. b) Or is it your second argument: A piece of ice cannot expand into a snowman under any circumstances.
We can all conceive of something starting to move spontaneously, without logical contradiction. Thus it is not logically necessary that things require impetus to begin moving. Causality is not a logically necessary truth, but rather an empirical.
If, as you say, we can't conceive logical contradictions, then if follows that we cannot conceive of something both existing to give movement and, at the same time, not existing to receive movement, which would be exactly the same thing as conceiving movement without a cause. At best, you could conceive the beginning of movement.
1) Knowledge is never 100% certain (even per Christian foundationalists)
That is simply a claim without support. Indeed, I have already proven that we can be 100% certain that you cannot get a snowman from a piece of ice and you finally agreed after first taking the opposite position. Are you going to revert back again to your a) argument after changing to the b) argument.
2) Casaulity as we conceive of it does not appear to apply at quantum scales or any context where temporal relations do not apply (e.g. if spacetime did not exist).
This is simply another claim with no support. Indeed, I have already proven the Law of Causality with the Law of Non-Contradition. You had no answer. StephenB
RDFish @364,
"I provided a definition of “free choice” under which we both agreed computers’ choices were free (i.e. they are based on internal states)."
I don't remember agreeing to this, but it doesn't matter. Your above definition of "free" comports with determinism, not freedom. I could just as well define "free" to mean "unpredictable" and then we could both agree that coin flips are free choices under that definition. As long as we can define words any old way then anything can be free. My definition is clearly more appropriate. Free: neither determined nor random. This gives us non-random contingency, which is necessary for any reasonable understanding of freedom. You already agree that free choices cannot be determined or random. My definition is jointly exhaustive of all types of causation under discussion, when taken with chance and necessity. Any selection based on internal states is deterministic. In order to circumvent this you would have to say something about how the states are switched, appealing to a non-random, nondeterministic mechanism for state switching. In other words, you would have to presume "free" state switching under my definition. Exactly what is confused about that? Chance Ratcliff
Hi Chance,
Anyone following along can decide for themselves whether I’m begging the question and providing useless categorizations of intelligence and free choice.
Yes, I'm fine with that. I've shown that you've assumed that human actions transcend chance+necessity in your premise, and then you conclude that human actions transcend chance+necessity. This is a very clear case of begging the question.
I think it’s clear that RDFish has not provided any compelling evidence that computers make free choices, nor any convincing argument to that effect.
I provided a definition of "free choice" under which we both agreed computers' choices were free (i.e. they are based on internal states). You provided a definition of "free choice" under which we both agreed computers' choices were not free (i.e. neither random nor determined). And then you turn around and complain that I haven't provided compelling evidence regarding free choice in computers??? I'm afraid you've revealed either a short memory or a very confused take on this issue! :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
Causality is self-evident. You cannot get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice.
This is a non-sequitur. Causality is not self-evident, and obviously you cannot get a 10' snowman from a piece of ice, as we know from experience (rather than logic) that such things do not happen.
In order to receive the addition to being (movement) a thing cannot exist in that state until it receives it.
You did not respond to my argument on this. We can all conceive of something starting to move spontaneously, without logical contradiction. Thus it is not logically necessary that things require impetus to begin moving. Causality is not a logically necessary truth, but rather an empirical truth. You ignored my other arguments, which I take to mean you have no responses to them: 1) Knowledge is never 100% certain (even per Christian foundationalists) 2) Casaulity as we conceive of it does not appear to apply at quantum scales or any context where temporal relations do not apply (e.g. if spacetime did not exist). Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Link correction for #361: My #353 and RDFish's response at #354. I must remember to double check links before posting. ;) Chance Ratcliff
Phinehas @358, Thank you very much! I'm going to let my #353 and RDFish's response at #354 stand for now, as my time is presently limited. Anyone following along can decide for themselves whether I'm begging the question and providing useless categorizations of intelligence and free choice. I think it's clear that RDFish has not provided any compelling evidence that computers make free choices, nor any convincing argument to that effect. I'll revisit this soon if I'm able, to refocus the discussion back to the original claim. Chance Ratcliff
SB: Causality is self-evident. You cannot get a 10' snowman from a piece of ice. RDFIsh
Causality is not self-evident. Neither is the fact that you can’t get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice! What if ice expanded when you sculpted with it? No logical contradication there at all.
Where do you get the facial features of the snowman? Where do you get the corncob pipe? Why would you think that sculpting ice could expand it? Do you think that working with a wood splinter will expand it into a two by four beam? SB: That a thing cannot be responsible for its own movement where it previously had no movement is self-evident. The Law of Causality is tied to the Law of Non-contradiction, as I have made clear.
I still say you’re wrong about this.
You can say it all day long, but that is not the same thing a providing a rational justification for saying it. It’s simple logic. In order to receive the addition to being (movement) a thing cannot exist in that state until it receives it. In order to give the addition to being (movement) a thing must already exist. It is the same for coming into existence. In order to receive being, a thing cannot exist; In order to give being, it must already exist. There is nothing complicated about it. A thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time, therefore, nothing can either begin to exist or change without a cause. StephenB
Hi Phinehas,
You’d lose! I claim nothing about people understanding “libertarianism” or having a clue about metaphysics. What I claim is that people automatically assume that both their own choices and the choices others make are entirely free in the libertarian sense, whether they are familiar with the label or the metaphysics behind it or not.
So you're claiming that people believe in something that they have no clue about understanding. Hmmm. People assume we make our own choices, and we could have done otherwise. My position is this exactly, and so people naturally agree with my position. Since they don't think about or have a clue about what libertarianism is, you're wrong to think that is their position. People generally are neither compatiabilists nor incompatibilists - they don't think about it. People generally assume we make our own choices, which means that they agree with both of us.
Common sense and experience tells them that they are free to choose as they will. Show me someone who believes otherwise, and I’ll show you someone who has be educated/indoctrinated into (anti)metaphysical philosophy.
Oooh, there's that anger I sense again. Have I lamented that you have been indoctrinated in theistic philosophy? No, I just think we disagree. We all have different opinions - let's try and respect that!
And I’m betting that, in the view of the vast majority of people on the planet, we are all responsible for our own choices because we are free to choose as we will, and we needn’t postulate any sort of weird determinism or physicalism or suppose that computers can make choices the same way we can in order to understand agency and moral responsibility.
Hahahahahaha!! You've stated my position here perfectly!!! I told you that people generally agree with me! 1) We are all responsible for our own choices 2) We are free to choose as we will 3) We needn't postulate determinism or physicalism 4) I think computers do not make choices the same way people do! Excellent - glad we see things the same way! Maybe someday these experiments (like the ones Benjamin Libet did, and Daniel Wegner is doing now) will reveal the true nature of our volition. Until then we certainly don't have to worry about it, because we all agree about moral responsibility!
(to Chance: I cannot imagine how anything other than willful refusal or metaphysical blinders could prevent someone from being persuaded by such a well-stated and supported argument.
Ahh, there you go again. I would never accuse you (or Chance) of "willful refusal" to see the truth, or of "metaphysical blinders", even though I think your arguments are mistaken and mine are well-stated and supported... and correct! Maybe you're more angry than I am, or more defensive, or maybe you're scared that I could be right? Anyway, I like exchanging arguments and ideas in these debates, and wish other people could remain polite and get personal, you know? Anyway if you see something I'm wrong about in my response to Chance, please do point it out; otherwise I'll assume you've realized I actually do have a cogent rebuttal and it's not just my "willful refusal" getting in the way :-) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Chance @353 Brilliant summation! Honestly, you've laid it out just about as clearly and with as much logical force as is possible. I cannot imagine how anything other than willful refusal or metaphysical blinders could prevent someone from being persuaded by such a well-stated and supported argument. Phinehas
I’d take that bet: Most people have no idea what “libertarianism” means in a metaphysical context, and wouldn’t give the issue a moment’s thought – especially if they’d just been hit in the nose!
You'd lose! I claim nothing about people understanding "libertarianism" or having a clue about metaphysics. What I claim is that people automatically assume that both their own choices and the choices others make are entirely free in the libertarian sense, whether they are familiar with the label or the metaphysics behind it or not. Common sense and experience tells them that they are free to choose as they will. Show me someone who believes otherwise, and I'll show you someone who has be educated/indoctrinated into (anti)metaphysical philosophy.
In my view, people make their own choices, are responsible for their own actions, and we needn’t postulate any sort of weird non-physical causality (or uncaused causes) in order to understand agency and moral responsibility.
And I'm betting that, in the view of the vast majority of people on the planet, we are all responsible for our own choices because we are free to choose as we will, and we needn't postulate any sort of weird determinism or physicalism or suppose that computers can make choices the same way we can in order to understand agency and moral responsibility. Phinehas
Hi Phinehas,
Since I’d automatically assume that the man freely chose to punch me in the nose, I’d ask that he be arrested. If it was discovered that he was coerced, controlled by aliens, or for some other reason not acting freely, I’d assume the charges would be dismissed, and would wholly support the decision to do so.
We aren't talking about this person being coerced, controlled by aliens, or controlled by anything outside of himself. We are talking about this person doing his own conscious thinking, reflecting, and choosing. All we are saying is that we do not know if underneath all of this thinking and wanting and choosing there is an ontologically distinct type of causation going on. Since either way the man is clearly making his choices in his conscious mind without any coercion, I can't see why it makes a bit of difference.
I’m betting most people on the planet would have done exactly the same as I described above, for exactly the same reasons.
I'd take that bet: Most people have no idea what "libertarianism" means in a metaphysical context, and wouldn't give the issue a moment's thought - especially if they'd just been hit in the nose!
In other words, I’m pretty sure that the default understanding of choice and consequences assumes libertarian free will, and it is only (anti)metaphysical philosophies that would tempt someone to abandon this common sense perspective.
In my view, people make their own choices, are responsible for their own actions, and we needn't postulate any sort of weird non-physical causality (or uncaused causes) in order to understand agency and moral responsibility. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Now, somebody comes up and punches you in the nose for no reason, and the police arrive on the scene. What would you like to happen at that point? Would you need to wait to see if libertarianism turned out to be true or false before you had him arrested? Or would you say “We better lock up this creep – he just punched me in the nose!”
Since I'd automatically assume that the man freely chose to punch me in the nose, I'd ask that he be arrested. If it was discovered that he was coerced, controlled by aliens, or for some other reason not acting freely, I'd assume the charges would be dismissed, and would wholly support the decision to do so.
I’m betting you’d do the latter, and not be immediately interested in the results of a metaphysical investigation that most people on the planet have never even heard of or thought about!
I'm betting most people on the planet would have done exactly the same as I described above, for exactly the same reasons. In other words, I'm pretty sure that the default understanding of choice and consequences assumes libertarian free will, and it is only (anti)metaphysical philosophies that would tempt someone to abandon this common sense perspective. Phinehas
Hi Chance,
RDF: “Now, what is it that determines what choices this fundamental, irreducible, indivisible self will make?” CR: You presume determinism in your question. In other words, it begs the question.
I know I've accused you of this repeatedly, and turnabout is fair play, but it's really not the case. One of the answers I consider to this question is "nothing determines this choice", which would mean that determinism is false. So no, I really haven't begged the question. Nice try, though!
RDF: If you say nothing at all determines it, then the choices seem random; otherwise they are not free. CR: Nothing determines nothing. It is nonsensical to suggest that nothing can determine something.
Okey doke, we'll cross that one out.
RDF: And if you say the self determines what the self determines, you’re heading off into an infinite regress. CR: I need say no such thing. The self determines the choices. You can rightly ask, “what determines the self?” And that would be fine: unknown cause -> self -> choices. To suggest that I must answer that the self determines what the self determines is your nonsensical notion, not mine.
I was listing all the possible choices for what could determine the self's choices. You've now rejected "nothing" as a possible answer, and also the "self" as a possible answer, and you've suggested that "unknown cause" is your answer, along with this diagram (unknown cause -> self -> choices). I think that's just fine! Clear and consistent, no problem with that. But you've certainly rejected libertarian free will by saying that our choices are determined by (some sort of) antecedent cause!
Our first-hand experience is with our selves as a cause for our actions. I have no need of explaining that self-evident fact away.
You may want to read the scientific literature regarding our perception of control. I assume you've read (or read about) Benjamin Libet's experiments? How about Daniel Wegner? http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/ Very interesting stuff that should convince you that our subjective impressions do not always reflect what is really going on. For example, did you know that our first-hand experience of ghosts moving the pointer on an Ouija board is actually an illusion? Yup - it turns out that you're actually moving the pointer without realizing it! :-)
If our choices can be linked to a host of antecedent causes, then just show how that works. That’s your position, not mine.
Actually, my position is that we don't know, but that we don't need libertarianism for moral responsibility or to make sense of ourlselves as agents. I will say that of course our choices can be linked to a host of antecedent causes - I don't think anybody disagrees with that. What's at issue is if our choices are fully determined by antecedent causes. I do not know if that is true or not, but I don't think it matters to moral philosophy one way or another.
I needn’t prove that I am a “self” nor that I am conscious, nor that I perceive. These are facts in evidence.
I agree that our subjective experience of consciousness and perceptions are facts in evidence, substantiated by inter-subjective confirmation.
If this notion of “self” can be accounted for by physical law, then describe how it works.
Conscious experience is the ultimate mystery. Not only can we not account for it by physical law, we can't even vaguely imagine what sort of explanation might account for it.
Can’t do it, it [randomness] is relevant to this discussion since contingency is on the table.
Ok then - please tell what "randomness" is.
RDF: Human mentality may conform to known physical laws, other physical laws we don’t understand (yet), or to a completely different sort of causality altogether. We don’t know. CR: This is an appeal to ignorance.
No, I'm not appealing to ignorance, I'm simply pointing out the fact that we are ignorant about this. An appeal to ignorance is used to justify some other explanation (as in a "God of the Gaps" argument).
You also seem to be suggesting that because we can’t be 100.000% sure about something, then we can’t be even reasonably certain about it.
Again, this is not what I mean at all. I mean that we have very little certainty about any particular answer to the mind/body problem. Nobody even has any idea regarding what the correct metaphysical ontology might be. There are weak philosophical arguments for one idea or another, but these have all been refuted - and their refutations refuted and so on - over the past few thousand years of debate. We just can't test these hypotheses at all. In fact, we don't even know if we are phrasing our questions in ways that could possibly have right answers! It's like if I asked you "How far is London from the edge of the Earth in kilometers?" you could not answer the question. If I said "Hey you don't have to be exactly certain, just give me your best idea" you still couldn't answer the question. The question just isn't phrased in a way that there is any correct answer. Asking "what causes our thoughts" or "how does conscious experience arise" might be questions like this.
Exactly what are you invoking parsimony to favor, numerous, intractable, unknown antecedent physical causes? Parsimony would favor a simpler explanation which can be accounted for by evidence. Exactly what is this simple explanation that you’re implying?
It really isn't the number of individual, actual things are involved that determines the complexity of a theory; it is how many different sorts of theoretical constructs are involved. We know physical cause exists; we don't know if non-physical (or uncaused) causes exist, so we would be adding a new, unknown sort of causality to our theory, which increases the complexity of the theory. It's like if you wanted to explain a storm. We know how heat and moisture and air and so on operate according to physical effects, even if we can't give a complete explanation of a particular storm (it's too complex and chaotic). Still, that explanation is more parsimonius than some theory that adds a whole other type of theoretical construct without actually adding anything to our ability to explain and predict storms.
You keep asserting that I’m assuming my conclusion, but you don’t demonstrate it. Can you show the logical circularity in the observation that no known physical laws can account for the contingent and non-random output of human consciousness?
I didn't say there was a logical circularity; I said you were begging the question (assuming your conclusion). Here is what I mean: You say that since no deterministic or random cause can produce a complex artifact, and that human beings can produce complex artifacts, this counts as evidence that humans are not deterministic/random causes. Here is your argument: Let D = "deterministic+random cause" Let H = "human being" Let C = "produce complex artifacts" 1) D cannot C 2) H can C 3) Therefore D != H But your premise #2 already assumes your conclusion #3, since if #3 was false, #2 could not logically be true. That is called begging the question.
Yet that doesn’t change the fact that the output of human consciousness can neither be described by known physical laws, nor can it be accounted for by probabilistic reasoning. Every time you type out a comment you’re testifying to this inconvenient, empirical fact.
It isn't inconvenient; it is merely a description of our knowledge. We don't know how we think.
There’s no evidence that our minds operate by known physics.
We don't know how we think.
Suggesting some unknown synthesis is an appeal to ignorance.
I'm suggesting that we don't know how we think. It could be that someday we'll figure it on the basis of physics, or some new physics, or even some new understanding of reality that transcends physics. Nobody knows.
Something beyond physics, or apart from physics, is what the evidence seems to indicate.
No, there is no evidence for that, any more than evidence for any other type of explanation. We just don't know. Nothing explains it.
There can be little doubt that “we ourselves” cause a category of phenomena that can neither be accounted for by necessity nor by chance.
No, there is actually a huge amount of doubt that is the case. The majority scientists all over the world reject that statement (in other words, most scientists are materialists). I tend to agree with you (if necessity means "currently understood physics"), but you're completely wrong to suggest there is "little doubt" about the matter!!!
You rightly state that we don’t understand the true nature of this “self”. Yet this fact alone does not refute the causal evidence.
There is not one shred of "causal evidence".
We know that trapdoor spiders produce trapdoor burrows. Yet we don’t understand what causes trapdoor spiders. This doesn’t prevent us from explaining trapdoor burrows by pointing to the spider that created it.
That only works because we can describe trapdoor spiders independently from their ability to produce trapdoor burrows! They are spiders with eight legs and hair and a bunch of eyes and they eat insects and they weigh about 1 gram and... And then we can look for this spider that matches your description and Bingo! There it is! Here is what I mean: Q: What causes crop circles? A: Boojah is what causes crop circles. Q: What is "boojah"? A: I just told you: It is what creates crop circles! See what I mean? You can't just define an explanation as "That which produces the effect in question", because it doesn't add anything to your explanatory power (your understanding). You can't figure out if Boojah exists or not, because there is no description of Boojah that tells you what it is you're talking about! That is what you are doing with this "irreducible self" you describe. All you say is it is what it isn't (determined by physics or random) and that it is responsible for the human choices that we're trying to explain. You might as well call it "boojah".
If we can discount physical causes for some effect, then what remains is randomness or intelligence.
"Intelligence" here seems to be another word for "self". First, you are begging the question of whether or not intelligent behavior transcends physical cause or not. Second, you are reifying "intelligence" - talking about it like it is a thing; intelligence is not a thing, it is a set of mental abilities that roughly includes learning, solving novel problems, planning, and so on.
If we can rule out randomness, then what remains is intelligence. I have categorized the nature of this intelligence as free agency. Do you have another candidate cause which is neither determined nor random, which can account for what we observe? What is the best explanation for the observed effect of non-random contingency, such as the content of this post, an unknown physical synthesis?
It could be that all intelligent behavior can be ultimately reduced to physical law plus chance. People who believe this include Dawkins and Dennet and Churchland and Pinker and Searle and other materialists. If they are right, your question doesn't even make sense. Or it could be that our intelligent behavior requires some physical (quantum?) effects we don't understand yet. Roger Penrose is a big advocate of this. Or it could be that our intelligent behavior is the result of processes that are so different that we couldn't even categorize them as "physical" at all. Dualists like StephenB here believe that I think. I don't know which of these approaches - if any - will turn out to be correct. My guess is (with others such as Colin McGinn) we will probably never know, because we're asking the question incorrectly or perhaps because we just can't understand it (like a mouse who can't understand calculus).
We can infer that a cause exists which is neither determined in nature nor random. This opens the door for the investigation of the nature of an entity capable of producing contingent output that is not random.
Investigate away! Just remember that naming is not explaining. If you manage to characterize some cause that we hadn't understood before, that would be a breakthrough to say the least.
You mean proving that I am conscious, or that I perceive, or that I exist. That’s not a game I’m going to play.
No, I've already said I don't play that game either. Conscious awareness is a confirmed fact we all accept.
Yes, Newton reasoned from effects to a singular cause, much like we can with the effects of intelligence.
NO!!! This is not at all the same, and you must realize why or we will never be able to communicate!!! Newton described gravity - he didn't just name it! He carefully characterized what he meant by the word "gravity"! He said it was a force inherent in every massive body that acted instantaneously at any distance and produced an acceleration in every other massive body and that the force was proportionate to the amount of mass and inversely proportional to the distance separating the masses... THAT is why Newton's formulation was valuable. In fact, at the turn of the 20th century we could falsify various aspects of Newton's theory, only because he provided the sort of characteristics that we could test. Your concepts of "intelligence" or "self" are nothing like this at all!
He was able to determine properties of gravity, but he did not account for the cause. What causes gravity, gravitons? Do they exist? What is their nature?
In order to provide a useful explanation, you need to characterize your explanatory construct, as I've been saying, in such a way that we can go about deciding if this explantory construct exists as you describe it. However, you needn't then proceed to describe the origin of that construct - that is a different question.
What we find here is that chance and necessity are not jointly exhaustive causes of observed phenomena.
First, I would say that "necessity" should be broken into 1) fixed law that we currently understand and 2) fixed law that we do not yet understand. And I've already said I do not understand what you mean by "chance" or "randomness".
However chance, necessity, and intelligent agency are.
Until you describe "intelligent agency" in a way that we can tell when we see it, you might as well say "Chance, necessity, and boojah" are the three categories. Here is why what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you: You assume that consciousness is causal. You assume that our subjective experience of conscious intent means that consciousness is the same thing as intelligence which is the same thing as free agency (or if they are not the same thing, they are related to each other in some way that you haven't articulated). You are constantly assuming your conclusions - none of these beliefs are based on our empirical knowledge. I'm not denying conscious experience - I'm denying that saying "I pushed the button because of my conscious intent" constitutes a valid explanation. Read about Benjamin Libet and Daniel Wegner to get an idea of what I'm talking about.
OK well do this one again because it is important: RDF: “Newton says the apple falls from the tree due to “down-ness”. When asked what “down-ness” is he answers “It means it isn’t because of the wind”. Sorry, Isaac, that doesn’t tell us what does cause it.” CR: Did Newton tell us what causes gravity?
Newton described gravity in a way that we could see if what he was describing existed or not and that it acted in the way he said it did. You cannot describe "free agency" that way. I'm not asking you to describe what causes free agency; I'm merely saying that you can't describe free agency in such a way that we can decide if it exists or not and acts as you say it does. So Newton didn't have to explain what caused gravity - he just had to provide a description of gravity that was in addition to his claim that it caused apples to fall. Hopefully that is clear. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish @350,
"Now, what is it that determines what choices this fundamental, irreducible, indivisible self will make?"
You presume determinism in your question. In other words, it begs the question.
"If you say nothing at all determines it, then the choices seem random; otherwise they are not free."
Nothing determines nothing. It is nonsensical to suggest that nothing can determine something.
"And if you say the self determines what the self determines, you’re heading off into an infinite regress."
I need say no such thing. The self determines the choices. You can rightly ask, "what determines the self?" And that would be fine: unknown cause -> self -> choices. To suggest that I must answer that the self determines what the self determines is your nonsensical notion, not mine. Our first-hand experience is with our selves as a cause for our actions. I have no need of explaining that self-evident fact away. If our choices can be linked to a host of antecedent causes, then just show how that works. That's your position, not mine. I needn't prove that I am a "self" nor that I am conscious, nor that I perceive. These are facts in evidence. If this notion of "self" can be accounted for by physical law, then describe how it works.
Agreed, randomness is somewhat mysterious, if not totally so.
Agreed – let’s leave it out of our discussion; it will make things easier.
Can't do it, it is relevant to this discussion since contingency is on the table.
It’s this latter one you’ll take issue with, because you’ll say that purposeful action may be explicable by antecedent, determined causes.
Yes! That is exactly what I point out.
Right, you point it out but you provide no evidence and no argument in favor of such a scenario.
But that is empirically indemonstrable; it is merely not strictly impossible.
Correct. Human mentality may conform to known physical laws, other physical laws we don’t understand (yet), or to a completely different sort of causality altogether. We don’t know.
This is an appeal to ignorance. You also seem to be suggesting that because we can't be 100.000% sure about something, then we can't be even reasonably certain about it. Where in our scientific evaluation of evidence to we find such a standard? What observations are not made provisionally?
So far, you have simply posited some “unique, irreducible, indivisible” thing you call a “self” that is somehow associated with each of us. I do not reject this out of hand, but like all claims you’ll need to provide some reason for me to believe this thing exists. Until you characterize this “self” in a way that would enable us to see if it exists or not, I would simply reject it on the grounds of parsimony: It adds complexity to our understanding of people without adding explanatory power.
Exactly what are you invoking parsimony to favor, numerous, intractable, unknown antecedent physical causes? Parsimony would favor a simpler explanation which can be accounted for by evidence. Exactly what is this simple explanation that you're implying?
But from an empirical standpoint, a free agent can do things that cannot formally be reduced to necessity, nor can they be described probabilistically. This is empirical.
I know you think that, but I can’t see why you do.[1] First, if you don’t use “human being” instead of “free agent” in these claims, you are once again assuming your conclusion.[2] So you’re saying that a human being can do things that cannot formally be reduced to necessity. All that means is we don’t know how human beings’ minds work.[3] It does not tell us if our minds operate according to known physics, unknown physics, or beyond physics.[4]
(my annotations) [1] Because I observe an effect which cannot be described deterministically nor probabilistically. [2] You keep asserting that I'm assuming my conclusion, but you don't demonstrate it. Can you show the logical circularity in the observation that no known physical laws can account for the contingent and non-random output of human consciousness? [3] Yet that doesn't change the fact that the output of human consciousness can neither be described by known physical laws, nor can it be accounted for by probabilistic reasoning. Every time you type out a comment you're testifying to this inconvenient, empirical fact. [4] There's no evidence that our minds operate by known physics. Suggesting some unknown synthesis is an appeal to ignorance. Something beyond physics, or apart from physics, is what the evidence seems to indicate. There exists a category of effects which can neither be explained by physical law nor probabilistic reasoning.
"If you would like to claim that your analyses eliminate known physical law as the basis of our mentality, I will agree arguendo (and tend to agree anyway). But that doesn’t tell you what is responsible.[1] You assume that if we discount physical law as a cause, we can then reasonably conclude that “free agency” becomes the best explanation. But that is ridiculous! You have merely defined “free agency” as “not determined” – you haven’t said anything else about it (remember we’re ignoring randomness).[2]"
[1] We infer a cause from the effects it produces. There can be little doubt that "we ourselves" cause a category of phenomena that can neither be accounted for by necessity nor by chance. You rightly state that we don't understand the true nature of this "self". Yet this fact alone does not refute the causal evidence. We know that trapdoor spiders produce trapdoor burrows. Yet we don't understand what causes trapdoor spiders. This doesn't prevent us from explaining trapdoor burrows by pointing to the spider that created it. [2] I haven't agreed to ignore randomness, because it is one of the causes of contingent effects. If we can discount physical causes for some effect, then what remains is randomness or intelligence. If we can rule out randomness, then what remains is intelligence. I have categorized the nature of this intelligence as free agency. Do you have another candidate cause which is neither determined nor random, which can account for what we observe? What is the best explanation for the observed effect of non-random contingency, such as the content of this post, an unknown physical synthesis?
Again: 1) “free agency” = not determined 2) prove human thought not determined 3) THEREFORE free agency is true So, once you have decided that (2) is true, your conclusion (3) does not add anything to your knowledge, because your definition of “free agency” is nothing but the negation of determinism! Once you dismiss determinism, all you have left is “we do not know what is responsible”.
I don't understand the above. I don't perceive an argument there, and certainly not a fair characterization of my argument. And if we are able to implicate a cause for an observed effect, even if that cause or its nature is unknown, we have indeed added to our knowledge. We can infer that a cause exists which is neither determined in nature nor random. This opens the door for the investigation of the nature of an entity capable of producing contingent output that is not random.
"Free agency isn’t a cause, it is nothing but the negation of determinism, and calling it “irreducible” or “indivisible” doesn’t tell us anything useful. To explain our mentality, you must posit something that is characterized in a way where we can tell if it actually exists and accounts for the phenomenon in question."
You mean proving that I am conscious, or that I perceive, or that I exist. That's not a game I'm going to play. We have in evidence both 1) an observed category of effects which are contingent, but not random; and 2) a category of being which is solely known to produce these effects. Both of these things can be known without having to elucidate the nature of the being. What can also be known is that neither chance nor necessity can explain the effects; they can only be explained in the context of this being. I've already shown how to falsify this. So what we actually do know, we know provisionally but forcefully: that a causal category exists which is neither determined nor random. It is contingent. If you want to dismiss what we observe because we can't explain the nature of consciousness in a deterministic way, be my guest. I'm not going to try and talk you out of it.
"Imagine if Newton had explained falling apples by “gravity”, and then when asked what “gravity” was, all he said was “Oh, you know, it’s this thing that is irreducible and indivisible and invisible and it makes apples fall to the ground”.” If that is all Newton had said, he would not have been famous, and he would not have fig cookies named for him But instead, Newton characterized gravity in such a way that we could see if it existed just as he described it, and… we could!"
Yes, Newton reasoned from effects to a singular cause, much like we can with the effects of intelligence. He was able to determine properties of gravity, but he did not account for the cause. What causes gravity, gravitons? Do they exist? What is their nature?
"To summarize: We’ll agree that known physical law can’t explain human mentality. We conclude that we have no idea how humans think – maybe new sorts of physics is involved, or maybe something we don’t understand at all. Saying “Free Agency” is the explanation tells us precisely nothing."
If we agree that physical law (necessity) cannot account for consciousness, then what remains is contingency. If we rule out randomness, which is not contentious, then we are left with a category of effects which conform to a relevant definition of free: non-random contingency. What we find here is that chance and necessity are not jointly exhaustive causes of observed phenomena. However chance, necessity, and intelligent agency are. I won't deny that there are problems trying to determine the nature of "self". However when considering all that we observe, intelligent agency parallels the only notion of "free" that makes any sense: choice contingency -- neither determined nor random.
Another possibility is that chance and necessity cannot account for everything we observe.
Yes, we’ve already agreed to accept this. So, what is the answer?
That there is a third causal phenomenon: intelligent agency. This follows logically. We needn't account for the nature of this agency in order to see that it can do things which cannot be explained by chance and necessity. It becomes inarguable in this context. Nondetermined, non-random effects are produced by nondetermined, non-random causes. Intelligent agents produce nondetermined, nonrandom effects. By definition, these are "free". If you have a more causally adequate definition of "free" than the one I provided, which when joined with chance and necessity is jointly exhaustive of observed effects, then put it forward.
"Newton says the apple falls from the tree due to “down-ness”. When asked what “down-ness” is he answers “It means it isn’t because of the wind”. Sorry, Isaac, that doesn’t tell us what does cause it."
Did Newton tell us what causes gravity?
"The rest of your discussion relies on this notion that merely eliminating known causes somehow tells us what the real cause is[1]. It doesn’t. Instead of saying “free agency” (which ultimately means nothing except we don’t understand what caused it), we ought to say “we don’t know”.[2]"
[1] Are you saying that ruling out causes of some observed effect has no epistemic benefit? [2] And here you attempt to rule out free agency based upon an epistemic gap. If free agency is a live possibility, and if no known causes can account for the effects associated with it, it seems reasonable to take it as provisionally true, as we do with all empirical observations. You want a complete description of human consciousness before you accept that it is a unique causal force that comports with a reasonable definition of "free". This is your problem, not mine. :D You insist that I cannot prove that humans are free selves. Yet you agree that chance and necessity cannot reasonably account for the phenomenon. If you're floating in a sea of uncertainty about whether you make "free" choices, and insist on absolute certainty that this is so, discounting your direct experience and the available empirical evidence, then I can do nothing more. ;) Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB, Let's see if we can summarize positions on the matter of Causality and Certain Truths. You assert that some truths are 100% absolutely self-evidently certain, and that these truths include laws of non-contradiction and causality. I disagree with you (and WJM and KF) in two ways on this issue. First, I point out that there are limits to our certainty. This means that we can try to justify our beliefs, but no matter what we do, there is always the chance that we are wrong. Even Christian epistemological foundationalists like Plantinga agree that our minds may be unreliable and we may be deluded about even the most obvious self-evident truths. So, while we can be very, very certain of many things, we can never be 100% absolutely certain of anything at all. Second, I contend that the law of causality is an empirical rather than a self-evident truth. Rather than analyze what makes a truth self-evident (this is quite controversial in epistemology), let me just draw a distinction between principles that are logically necessary, and other principles which are contingently (empirically) true. Another way people say this is that necessary truths are true in all possible worlds, while there are possible worlds in which contingent truths do not hold. In contrast to contingent truths, necessary truths are those where we are incapable of conceptualizing exceptions, because they result in logical contradiction. Nobody can imagine a square circle, or a proposition where both it and its negation is true. Our minds just can't grasp such things - we can't make sense of it at all. Now, which sort of truth is causality? Can I imagine something beginning to move without something else moving it? Yes, I am imagining that right now, with no logical contradiction. We could even make an animation of such a thing (as we do in cartoons) without a problem. Of course the cartoon does not reflect our world, because in our world that never happens. But we can imagine such a thing without running into a logical contradiction. We could not, for example, make a cartoon of a square circle. So, causality is a contingent, rather than a necessary truth. And as I've pointed out, causality as we know it does not appear to hold in the quantum world, and does not appear to be applicable outside of our space-time continuum (i.e. we can't say the universe was caused). Why doesn't causality hold in the quantum world? I'm not talking about quantum uncertainty; I'm talking about quantum effects that violate realism and locality. If you don't understand these phenomena, you need to read about the EPR thought experiment, Bell's Theorem, and the various experiments that have been performed to confirm these QM predictions. It has been proven that no theory which respects the principles of local causation and realism (that properties exist independently of our minds) can be consistent with QM and our experimental results. Why doesn't causality apply to the beginning of the universe? Because causality requires that the cause temporally precede the effect. However, nothing could temporally precede the beginning of the universe, because there was no time before the universe began. Therefore causality as we know it cannot serve in any explanation of how the universe began. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish
It is true, but it is not a self-evident truth! In fact, it is (with regard to movement) Newton’s First Law of Motion (an object will only begin to move if caused to do so by an external force). This is a law of physics, based on empirical observation. It is not self-evident, and in fact Newton’s law contradicted other competing theories (e.g. Aristotelian laws of motion).
That a thing cannot be responsible for its own movement where it previously had no movement is self-evident. Among the things that Newton and Aristotle disagreed about, that was not one of them. Aristotle believed that the "unmoved mover" moves other things, but is not itself moved by any prior action. So that objection doesn’t work. “It is the same principle and is tied to the principle of non-contradiction.”
I still say you’re wrong about this.
It’s simple logic. In order to receive the addition to being (movement) a thing cannot exist in that state until it receives it. In order to give the addition to being (movement) a thing must already exist. It is the same for coming into existence. In order to receive being, a thing cannot exist; In order to give being, it must already exist. There is nothing complicated about it. A thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time, therefore, nothing can either begin to exist or change without a cause.
Again, causality is not logically necessary.
I just showed you that it is. .
Self-evident or properly basic or metaphysically intuitive beliefs include the LNC, law of identity, law of the excluded middle, modus ponens, and the Peano axioms.
What about the Law that the finite whole can never be more than any of its parts?
Causality is not self-evident. Neither is the fact that you can’t get a 10? snowman from a piece of ice! What if ice expanded when you sculpted with it? No logical contradication there at all.
Where do you get the facial features of the snowman? Where do you get the corncob pipe? Why would you think that sculpting ice could expand it? Do you think that working with a wood splinter will expand it into a two by four beam?
Again, Plantinga’s point is not that we should doubt self-evident (he calls them “properly basic”) beliefs. On the contrary, that is how he argues that belief in God is rational. I brought him up only because he (like every other epistemologist as far as I know) acknowledges that the justifications for our beliefs can never be 100% certain, even for self-evident beliefs, and that seemed to be a real sticking point here.
If Plantinga does not mention the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Causality, then it is not relevant to our discussion.
My ability to resist arose from my beliefs and desires and my reasoning and how I felt physically and mentally and things that happened to me (maybe I saw some anti-smoking ads or heard about somebody getting sick or thought about being around for my wife or…) and all sorts of other things too. I changed over time, and finally I succeeded. It’s got to be similar to how you would describe it, right? I just don’t need to take a stand on libertarianism one way or another to make sense of my struggle and eventual success.
Again, it seems to me that you are trying to offer a description as an explanation. You seem to be saying, “Here is what happened,” and then offering that very same description as the reason it happened.
If you really understood what I’ve said, you’d know that my answer to the question “Can a universe pop into existence without a cause?” would be “I don’t think the concept of causality is applicable when speaking of the beginning of time, so I can’t answer the question.
Yet you do think that quantum particles) on the say so of some scientists. Many scientists, using a related rationale, say universes can also come from out of nowhere (Lawrence Krauss and others). If you accept their conclusion that quantum events can occur without a cause, why do you not also accept their conclusion that universes can come to exist without a cause? You don’t hear them saying that causality does not apply to these situations.
The concept of causality is connected to the concept of time: The cause must temporally precede the effect in a cause-effect relationship. But how can there be a cause that temporally precedes the beginning of time?
Causality is not necessarily related to time. One can argue that a thing is contingent and therefore dependent on another cause, independent of any arguments about time. That is why Aquinas could assume arguendo that the universe was eternal and still argue for the existence of God as the First Cause.
As absurd as it is to everyone who reads about these experiments, I have never seen anyone challenge these results.
Plenty of physicists argue that quantum events are not acausal.
Our understanding of causality, conservation laws, time, and so on all work very, very, very well for the domain of our experience. We can be very certain that brick walls don’t pop into existence.
How is it that you are certain that a brick wall that didn’t exist in time cannot pop into existence, but you have no opinion about whether a universe that also didn’t exist in time can pop into existence?
But QM works very, very, very well too – it has never been contradicted, and has been confirmed to 13 significant digits I believe. And QM says that in the quantum realm, causality is very different from what it is in the realm of our experience.
We all know that QM works very well. It has been thoroughly tested. The issue is whether quantum events are causal or acausal. StephenB
Hi Chance
RDF: “Maybe human choices are determined by physical law as we understand it, or maybe human choices are determined by physical laws that we don’t yet understand, or maybe human choices are determined by… whatever it is libertarians think determines choices.” CR: Or maybe choices are made by a fundamental, irreducible, indivisible self.
Ok, fine. Now, what is it that determines what choices this fundamental, irreducible, indivisible self will make? If you say nothing at all determines it, then the choices seem random; otherwise they are not free. And if you say the self determines what the self determines, you're heading off into an infinite regress.
That would depend upon the true meaning of “responsible.” If fire can be responsible for burning, then a being whose actions are determined can also be responsible for those actions.
Yes. What is responsible for the burning? The fire.
If those actions were determined by antecedent causes, then those causes are also responsible, and so on, back up the chain to all antecedent causes.
Yes you could say that.
Right, nobody is absolutely certain, in terms of it being proven formally. Not everything we are reasonably certain of is amenable to formal proof.
I understand that (I have just been making that point to StephenB at great length!!). My point has nothing to do with absolute certainty. I'm saying that there is no way of telling we have libertarian freedom.
Agreed, randomness is somewhat mysterious, if not totally so.
Agreed - let's leave it out of our discussion; it will make things easier.
In the category of contingency there are: events that are random, as in unpredictable apart from a probability distribution;
Ok, we're going to leave "random" out of the discussion...
...and events that are purposeful, as in intended for a purpose — to perform an intened function or communicate a meaning. It’s this latter one you’ll take issue with, because you’ll say that purposeful action may be explicable by antecedent, determined causes.
Yes! That is exactly what I point out.
But that is empirically indemonstrable; it is merely not strictly impossible.
Correct. Human mentality may conform to known physical laws, other physical laws we don't understand (yet), or to a completely different sort of causality altogether. We don't know.
A free agent is a unique, irreducible, indivisible self. This self causes the actions of the agent. Either you reject this, or you just doubt it, or you simply think it’s formally unprovable. Perhaps you could clarify your position as to whether it’s one of uncertainty, agnosticism, or flat out disbelief, etc.
So far, you have simply posited some "unique, irreducible, indivisible" thing you call a "self" that is somehow associated with each of us. I do not reject this out of hand, but like all claims you'll need to provide some reason for me to believe this thing exists. Until you characterize this "self" in a way that would enable us to see if it exists or not, I would simply reject it on the grounds of parsimony: It adds complexity to our understanding of people without adding explanatory power.
But from an empirical standpoint, a free agent can do things that cannot formally be reduced to necessity, nor can they be described probabilistically. This is empirical.
I know you think that, but I can't see why you do. First, if you don't use "human being" instead of "free agent" in these claims, you are once again assuming your conclusion. So you're saying that a human being can do things that cannot formally be reduced to necessity. All that means is we don't know how human beings' minds work. It does not tell us if our minds operate according to known physics, unknown physics, or beyond physics. If you would like to claim that your analyses eliminate known physical law as the basis of our mentality, I will agree arguendo (and tend to agree anyway). But that doesn't tell you what is responsible. You assume that if we discount physical law as a cause, we can then reasonably conclude that "free agency" becomes the best explanation. But that is ridiculous! You have merely defined "free agency" as "not determined" - you haven't said anything else about it (remember we're ignoring randomness). Again: 1) "free agency" = not determined 2) prove human thought not determined 3) THEREFORE free agency is true So, once you have decided that (2) is true, your conclusion (3) does not add anything to your knowledge, because your definition of "free agency" is nothing but the negation of determinism! Once you dismiss determinism, all you have left is "we do not know what is responsible". Free agency isn't a cause, it is nothing but the negation of determinism, and calling it "irreducible" or "indivisible" doesn't tell us anything useful. To explain our mentality, you must posit something that is characterized in a way where we can tell if it actually exists and accounts for the phenomenon in question. Imagine if Newton had explained falling apples by "gravity", and then when asked what "gravity" was, all he said was "Oh, you know, it's this thing that is irreducible and indivisible and invisible and it makes apples fall to the ground"." If that is all Newton had said, he would not have been famous, and he would not have fig cookies named for him :-) But instead, Newton characterized gravity in such a way that we could see if it existed just as he described it, and... we could! To summarize: We'll agree that known physical law can't explain human mentality. We conclude that we have no idea how humans think - maybe new sorts of physics is involved, or maybe something we don't understand at all. Saying "Free Agency" is the explanation tells us precisely nothing.
RDF: “This argument has already assumed your conclusion in its premise by making “agents” and “material processes” mutually exclusive. You can’t say this argument provides evidence when it simply assumes the conclusion. This is begging the question.” CR: My argument does not assume its conclusion, it presumes that the existence of free will is a possibility among possibilities, and then argues based upon uniform and repeated experience. One possibility is that chance and necessity can account for everything we observe.
And we agree to reject this.
Another possibility is that chance and necessity cannot account for everything we observe.
Yes, we've already agreed to accept this. So, what is the answer?
This is the reason why “free” as in “not determined and not random” needs such a definition.
The problem is, again, your definition doesn't actually tell us what "free agency" is - it only says what it is not. Newton says the apple falls from the tree due to "down-ness". When asked what "down-ness" is he answers "It means it isn't because of the wind". Sorry, Isaac, that doesn't tell us what does cause it. CR says we design things using "free agency". When asked what "free agency" is he answers "It means it isn't random or determined". However, that doesn't tell us what it is. The rest of your discussion relies on this notion that merely eliminating known causes somehow tells us what the real cause is. It doesn't. Instead of saying "free agency" (which ultimately means nothing except we don't understand what caused it), we ought to say "we don't know". Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
I believe that freedom and responsibility are inextricably intertwined. You cannot have one without the other. Now what?
Now, we argue some more :-) Let us for the sake of argument assume this position: libertarianism may be true or false, and nobody knows which is the case. OK? Now, somebody comes up and punches you in the nose for no reason, and the police arrive on the scene. What would you like to happen at that point? Would you need to wait to see if libertarianism turned out to be true or false before you had him arrested? Or would you say "We better lock up this creep - he just punched me in the nose!" I'm betting you'd do the latter, and not be immediately interested in the results of a metaphysical investigation that most people on the planet have never even heard of or thought about! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Stephen,
Based on your description of “totatlity etc” which appeared to me (and still does) as determinism, I said that your second formulation “seems” to contradict the first.
Well, I don't even see an appearance of contradiction - in both formulations "I" cause and am responsible for my actions, and "I" am the sum of what I was born with combined with my experiences. That description is neutral with regard to determinism - it makes no difference in my view of our actions are ultimately based on physical laws that we understand currently, or physical laws that we do not understand, or non-physical causality, or whatever else.
It applies either to being, addition to being, or movement. If one does not have being or movement, it must be received from something else. It is a self-evident truth.
It is true, but it is not a self-evident truth! In fact, it is (with regard to movement) Newton's First Law of Motion (an object will only begin to move if caused to do so by an external force). This is a law of physics, based on empirical observation. It is not self-evident, and in fact Newton's law contradicted other competing theories (e.g. Aristotelian laws of motion).
It is the same principle and is tied to the principle of non-contradiction.
I still say you're wrong about this. Again, causality is not logically necessary. LNC, in contrast, is logically necessary, and we cannot even imagine what it means for X and not X to be true at the same time.
The problem is with the interpretation. Recall that many physicists do not go down that road, recognizing that unpredictability does not necessarily indicate causality.
Actually if you read what I said I never mentioned unpredictability, or quantum uncertainty. Rather I was commenting on the fact that in QM causality violates locality and realism (I think BA77 here often writes about these things - nonlocal effects of entangled particles, and so on). I'm not aware of any interpretation of the experimental results that preserve local real causes. So I think you need to give up causality as a self-evident truth, and as a corollary to the LNC (I explained in my last post what LNC and no-self-causation do not stand or fall together).
Just as there are many people who hope that the universe was created and has purpose, there are also those who hope that wasn’t (doesn’t).
Hmmm, I suppose there are. I'm not in either group, though - I'm really fine in either case.
I am asking specifically about the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Causality or the Law of the Whole/Part relationship, all of which can be metaphysically intuited, just as you can intuit the fact that you can’t get a ten-foot snowman from a piece of ice.
I disagree with you about what sorts of things can be metaphysically intuited and what is learned via experience. Self-evident or properly basic or metaphysically intuitive beliefs include the LNC, law of identity, law of the excluded middle, modus ponens, and the Peano axioms. Causality is not self-evident. Neither is the fact that you can't get a 10' snowman from a piece of ice! What if ice expanded when you sculpted with it? No logical contradication there at all.
Does he mention them by name and say that they are not certain?
Again, Plantinga's point is not that we should doubt self-evident (he calls them "properly basic") beliefs. On the contrary, that is how he argues that belief in God is rational. I brought him up only because he (like every other epistemologist as far as I know) acknowledges that the justifications for our beliefs can never be 100% certain, even for self-evident beliefs, and that seemed to be a real sticking point here.
I can create a new chain of causes that would not have existed without me. So can you.
I can interpret this in a way that I agree with and a way that I disagree with. A storm creates a new chain of causes (high winds, rain, hail stones...) that have effects (damage, flooding, etc) that would not have existed if the storm hadn't formed. But in terms of fundamental causality, the storm is not an uncaused cause; it was itself formed by antecedent causes. My point is that if we just look at human beings being the cause of their own actions - the most natural way to look at things! - it simply makes no difference which particular metaphysical ontology one favors. Whether determinism or libertarianism or dualism or physicalism or idealism... it just doesn't matter. Storms exist and do things, people exist and do things, and we can talk about that just fine without worrying about issues of fundamental physics and metaphysics.
But I just don’t understand how you get the ability to resist an impulse from those elements alone.
My ability to resist arose from my beliefs and desires and my reasoning and how I felt physically and mentally and things that happened to me (maybe I saw some anti-smoking ads or heard about somebody getting sick or thought about being around for my wife or...) and all sorts of other things too. I changed over time, and finally I succeeded. It's got to be similar to how you would describe it, right? I just don't need to take a stand on libertarianism one way or another to make sense of my struggle and eventual success.
RDF: That is my position. I know you hate it, but you can’t argue against it, so what do you do? SB: I refute it.
Ok, good - that's what I'm here for :-)
All you have to do is say that such a thing is, in principle, impossible and refrain from your proclivity to add a second clause that qualifies the first clause and the matter will be closed.
My proclivity is to engage issues in their full complexity rather than reducing them to cartoon versions of reality where everything can be answered with "yes" or "no". My description of my position on causality was not over-complicated; it was just complicated enough to explain what I think about causality. There are entire books on this one subject, of course - at least I don't go on for that long!
As I understand your philosophy, there is nothing in principle to prevent a universe from popping into existence without a cause.
If you really understood what I've said, you'd know that my answer to the question "Can a universe pop into existence without a cause?" would be "I don't think the concept of causality is applicable when speaking of the beginning of time, so I can't answer the question." It's like me asking you "How far is London from the edge of the Earth? Please be specific and give your answer kilometers." You'd have to add a little qualifier to your answer like "Uh, sorry, but there is no edge of the Earth", wouldn't you?
You are here indicating that causality may not apply to the origin of the universe,...
Yes, that's exactly right. The concept of causality is connected to the concept of time: The cause must temporally precede the effect in a cause-effect relationship. But how can there be a cause that temporally precedes the beginning of time?
... and you are clearly sympathetic with the absurd idea that new evidence can invalidate the principle of causality, either at the micro level or the macro level.
As absurd as it is to everyone who reads about these experiments, I have never seen anyone challenge these results. Experimental results have been produced and replicated and confirmed many times, and I do not know of any physicist who thinks that these results are consistent with local realism. Once you give up local realism, it is very difficult to imagine preserving causality in a form anything like the one we know. For one thing, non-locality means that whether the cause precedes or follows the effect becomes relative to the intertial frame of the observer!
If you think that it is possible for a universe to pop into existence without a cause, and you are clearly allowing for that possibility,...
You should know by now that what I really think is we have idea whatsoever how a universe comes to exist of course. To say it pops into existence violates the conservation of mass/energy, which is as certain a scientific result as we have. Yet nothing came before it - because there is no "before" the universe, because the start of the universe was the start of time. It's a total mystery to me, and I'm quite certain that nobody understands it.
... then what do you have to say about a brick wall, which is a lot easier to produce than a universe. Or is it your position that it is a big problem for the former but not so much for the latter.
Our understanding of causality, conservation laws, time, and so on all work very, very, very well for the domain of our experience. We can be very certain that brick walls don't pop into existence. But QM works very, very, very well too - it has never been contradicted, and has been confirmed to 13 significant digits I believe. And QM says that in the quantum realm, causality is very different from what it is in the realm of our experience. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish @338,
"It doesn’t make any difference to morality and justice whether or not libertarianism is true."
With regard to morality, I disagree. If our choices are determined by prior physical causes, then we can't be truly responsible for our actions -- we are only the particular vessel in which those actions happened to manifest. With regard to justice, I also disagree. If there is no free will, there is no justification for punishment for wrong doing, because there is no wrong doing -- there is only doing. In that case we may incarcerate an individual for the express purpose of protecting society, or perhaps even to effect some sort of rehabilitation, but there is no wrong doing to recompense for. I don't expect agreement here, I just wanted to offer comment.
"Maybe human choices are determined by physical law as we understand it, or maybe human choices are determined by physical laws that we don’t yet understand, or maybe human choices are determined by… whatever it is libertarians think determines choices."
Or maybe choices are made by a fundamental, irreducible, indivisible self.
"It just doesn’t matter, because in the end everyone is responsible for whatever they do."
That would depend upon the true meaning of "responsible." If fire can be responsible for burning, then a being whose actions are determined can also be responsible for those actions. If those actions were determined by antecedent causes, then those causes are also responsible, and so on, back up the chain to all antecedent causes.
Perhaps you could clear something up for me. On one hand, you have been arguing that computers can behave in a non-random and nondeterministic way.
If the input is non-random and nondeterministic, yes.[1] I’m just saying that since programs can rewrite themselves based on input, programs can be nondeterministic in the same way the input is.[2]
(my annotations) [1] But I'm trying to understand what sort of non-random nondeterministic input you have in mind. Under my definitions, this type of input would be "free". [2] I think the important distinction here is that if the input is nondeterministic, then the output is, as long as there is an appropriate mapping between input and output. The program itself however is deterministic. Aside from theoretical constructs, all programs are deterministic -- they do exactly the same thing each time they run, if the input is constant.
On the other hand, you’ve been suggesting that human behavior is determined but neither random nor free. Can you clear this up?
I don’t know if human behavior is determined (and nobody else does either).
Right, nobody is absolutely certain, in terms of it being proven formally. Not everything we are reasonably certain of is amenable to formal proof. As a simple example, I am reasonably certain tomorrow will come, as in, there's no good reason to suspect otherwise. I cannot prove this, but I live as though it were true, and so does virtually everyone else.
"But here’s something you can clear up: I know what it means for an event to be determined by antecedent cause – it means there is a necessary, constant conjunction between the cause and the event. The concept of “random” is more complicated than that. But more difficult to understand still is what are you imagining might be neither determined nor random."
Agreed, randomness is somewhat mysterious, if not totally so. However logically, an event can be any of these three: necessary, as when water freezes when the sufficient temperature condition occurs; impossible, in that it can never occur under any circumstances; or contingent, which is defined as neither necessary nor impossible. In the category of contingency there are: events that are random, as in unpredictable apart from a probability distribution; and events that are purposeful, as in intended for a purpose -- to perform an intened function or communicate a meaning. It's this latter one you'll take issue with, because you'll say that purposeful action may be explicable by antecedent, determined causes. But that is empirically indemonstrable; it is merely not strictly impossible.
"What is it that determines what a free agent does, if a free agent is neither determined nor random? If nothing determines what a free agent does, then it seems the acts would be random. If something determines what a free agent does, then it seems determined."
A free agent is a unique, irreducible, indivisible self. This self causes the actions of the agent. Either you reject this, or you just doubt it, or you simply think it's formally unprovable. Perhaps you could clarify your position as to whether it's one of uncertainty, agnosticism, or flat out disbelief, etc. But from an empirical standpoint, a free agent can do things that cannot formally be reduced to necessity, nor can they be described probabilistically. This is empirical. For instance, "This message has meaning. By writing this comment, I'm intending to show that there exists a qualitative difference between necessity, chance, and purposeful intent." That message is 165 characters. Considering a 64 character alphabet, including capital letters, spaces, commas, periods, etc., that message is one of around 10^298 possible messages of that same length, very few of which convey any meaning at all, much less a specific, contextually appropriate meaning. With very little effort however, I managed to convey a particular, relevant meaning. That meaning cannot be accounted for by probability, since the search space is many, many orders of magnitude beyond the probabilistic resources of the entire universe (there are only an estimated 10^80 elementary particles in the universe and only 10^43 Planck-time events per second, and only 13.5 or so billion years available since the big bang); moreover, the message does not conform to a probability distribution -- it contains a non-random signal -- so chance can be effectively ruled out, not as logically impossible, but as empirically implausible. The message also cannot be accounted for by necessity; it cannot be reduced to algorithmic simplicity, and there are no repeating or predictable patterns that are the hallmarks of physical necessity; there are no phenomena in the known universe that can generate similar output, with one exception: human beings -- agents. So that sample message is potentially a candidate for a "free" sort of cause, one that is neither determined nor random. It is not determined, since it cannot be accounted for by physical law; it is not random, since it neither conforms to a probability distribution nor could it possibly be arrived at by random trials. Can we prove this to be the case? No, since contingent events are not logically impossible. Any contingent event is a candidate for being generated by some "random" phenomena. Can we prove that such events are not amenable to description by physical law? No, since we cannot prove such a thing to be impossible; some future law or process might be discovered. But that's not the way empirical evidence works.
"This argument has already assumed your conclusion in its premise by making “agents” and “material processes” mutually exclusive. You can’t say this argument provides evidence when it simply assumes the conclusion. This is begging the question."
My argument does not assume its conclusion, it presumes that the existence of free will is a possibility among possibilities, and then argues based upon uniform and repeated experience. One possibility is that chance and necessity can account for everything we observe. Another possibility is that chance and necessity cannot account for everything we observe. This is the reason why "free" as in "not determined and not random" needs such a definition. If the possibility of libertarian free will is excluded before an argument is made in favor of it, then there's no point in arguing in the first place. Moreover, if the existence of free will must be proven before it can be considered a live possibility for debate, then that is completely inappropriate for any discussion that seeks to entertain all possibilities and then argue for the one best supported by the evidence. In that vein, let me again present a falsifiable observation. Premise: For all X, if X is a computer, then X is the product of purposeful intelligent activity. This can be falsified: There exists an X, such that X is a computer and X is the result of chance and necessity. The above is empirical, falsifiable, and established by direct observation. This may seem trivial, but it establishes this fact: whether or not intelligent agents can be accounted for by chance and necessity, the products of their activities cannot be accounted for directly by chance and necessity. So the causal chain could still work this way: material processes -> humans -> computers. That is, chance and necessity can construct humans which can in turn design and build computers. It is still the case that no known chance and necessity process can directly build computers. So humans, whatever they happen to be ultimately, can do something which material processes cannot. But what if humans are caused by chance and necessity? Well we cannot prove that material processes cannot ever build humans, but that's not how evidence works. We are not required to prove that it's impossible for such; rather the proponents of such a view have the burden of evidence, to demonstrate that material processes are capable of such feats. This is reasonable. Likewise, we cannot prove it impossible that material processes can ever construct technology, given some unknown set of sufficient conditions, but it must be demonstrated that they can actually do it in order to count as evidence. So the question is not really whether humans can build computers; from all available evidence, they can. There are two questions remaining: 1) whether material processes can construct computers; or 2) whether material processes can construct humans. If either of those turns out to be the case, then we can say that material processes can at least construct computers transitively, by first constructing humans. If that were the case, we could credit material processes with art, literature, civilization, technology, space travel, love, beauty, etc. So in my view, here is where it stands. We have an aspect of human behavior -- the designing and building of technology, for example -- which can be classified as neither determined nor random. In other words, these phenomena are contingent, but they are not random. This is not an a priori assumption, but rather it is consistent with uniform and repeated experience. All that's needed to refute this inference to nondeterministic and non-random behavior is to demonstrate that either some material process can construct computers or like devices, or that some material process can construct humans. Just by positing a live possibility that "free" activity is in play, and then building an argument based on evidence, in no way assumes the conclusion. Instead, the conclusion is supported by observational evidence taken in the context of uniform and repeated experience. In summary I suggest that requiring formal proof of the existence of "free" will before forming an argument that favors it is not appropriate. It's also not appropriate to require that those who favor the notion of free will prove that chance and necessity processes cannot do something which there is no evidence of them doing. There is no imperative to accept chance and necessity as causally sufficient for certain phenomena, when it cannot be shown, even in theory, how chance and necessity could account for such phenomena. In other words, based on direct observation, human agents can do things that are provisionally nondeterministic and non-random. That is, they are contingent and purposeful, and under the definition, they are "free". I'm not holding out hope that you'll be convinced, but I wanted to articulate my reasons anyway. This is an empirical argument in favor of free will. It should be noted that our first-hand experience with our actions is that we are free to choose from among possibilities. I also think this counts as evidence. Chance Ratcliff
One time he capitalises a term (Creator/Intelligent Designer), the next time he doesn’t (creator/intelligent designer; I can create). The next time maybe he will capitalise the term again. How is anyone to know what he actually means by this flip-flopping? Deflect, avoid, evade. This is the level of stephenb's integrity at UD. It is a sad representation of the IDM that such people cannot admit any fault in their desire for IDism to be 'true.' Most Abrahamic believers have seen through IDism, realising that to admit (and embrace) the world was Created does not require trying to erect a natural scientific theory to account for it. Just 'following the evidence where it leads' in this thread, folks, even if it sometimes upsets IDists like stephenb. No confession, no error, no room for admitting mistakes on his part. To him, IDism is just a perfect ideology, even a 'scientific revolution' for world history! Gregory
RDF:
You are right – but I’d put it even stronger: It doesn’t make any difference to morality and justice whether or not libertarianism is true. Maybe human choices are determined by physical law as we understand it, or maybe human choices are determined by physical laws that we don’t yet understand, or maybe human choices are determined by… whatever it is libertarians think determines choices. It just doesn’t matter, because in the end everyone is responsible for whatever they do.
Why? Because you said so? Because you are certain that this is the case? I don't find that the least bit convincing. I believe that freedom and responsibility are inextricably intertwined. You cannot have one without the other. Now what? Phinehas
StephenB “I cannot decide anything if the Creator does not keep me in existence. I cannot decide anything if the creator doesn’t give me a faculty of will…On the other hand, I do have the ability to cause things on my own by that same power. I can create a new chain of causes that would not have existed without me. So can you.” Gregory:
Yes, we can be co-creators, small-c human creators. One needn’t confuse that with Uppercase ‘Intelligent Design’ theory. That is, unless stephenb confuses himself with Divinity (which is highly possible for him, even if heterodox for a Catholic).
Poor Gregory cannot follow the trajectory of even one paragraph or grasp the significance of the words "on the other hand." This is postmodernistic deconstructionism where the reader feels justified in intruding his own biases and prejudices on the written text and attributing to them any meaning he chooses, regardless of what the author had in mind. I gather that he picked up this unfortunate habit in a sociology class somewhere. StephenB
Gregory:
Doesn’t [he] know what the ‘Butterfly Effect’ is? Has little imagination?
Poor Gregory is still trying to be relevant. The so-called butterfly effect does not violate causality. It was Aristotle, the master of LNC and Loc, who said that a small error in the beginning becomes a large error in the end. I would explain the relationship between momentum and causality or relate it to the phenomenon of synergy for Gregory if I thought he could absorb it, but he doesn't do very well with remedial education. I thank him, though, for admitting that he thinks that effects can occur without causes. StephenB
Is stephenb back to his communications duplicity (aka flip-flopping) just like his IDism again? One time he capitalises a term, the next time he doesn't. The next time maybe he will again. How is anyone to know what he actually means by this flip-flopping? Surely he won't admit making a mistake because obviously he 'intelligently designed' (read: intentional, purposeful, guided, teleological) the difference between capitalised and non-capitalised below. Explaining himself about such flip-flopping, however, seems to be simply below him, so don't bother asking.
"I cannot decide anything if the Creator does not keep me in existence. I cannot decide anything if the creator doesn’t give me a faculty of will...On the other hand, I do have the ability to cause things on my own by that same power. I can create a new chain of causes that would not have existed without me. So can you."
Yes, we can be co-creators, small-c human creators. One needn't confuse that with Uppercase 'Intelligent Design' theory. That is, unless stephenb confuses himself with Divinity (which is highly possible for him, even if heterodox for a Catholic).
"You cannot get more in the effect that was in the cause."
It's a stephenb-IDist law of cause/effect. Yeah, right! :P Has he never heard of a bubble or an avalanche? Doesn't know what the 'Butterfly Effect' is? Has little imagination? For a self-styled 'philosopher,' the lack of imagination displayed by stephenb is astonishing. Gregory
...that should read: "Recall that many physicists do not go down that road, recognizing that unpredictability does not necessarily indicate acausality [not causality]. Sorry. StephenB
RDFish
You said I contradicted myself, but I demonstrated there was no contradiction, all with no reference whatsoever to the meaning of that phrase. It doesn’t actually make any difference what that phrase meant to see the consistency – you just made a reasoning error.
You must have misread my comment. Based on your description of “totatlity etc” which appeared to me (and still does) as determinism, I said that your second formulation "seems" to contradict the first. Please do not add to my words or eliminate important qualifiers.
Oh, I see: You’re talking about one very special type of causation, which is causing something to exist. We never observe this sort of causation; in fact, science is predicated on the conservation laws which say this sort of causation never happens! You aren’t talking about the sort of causation we encounter.
It applies either to being, addition to being, or movement. If one does not have being or movement, it must be received from something else. It is a self-evident truth. You cannot get more in the effect that was in the cause. You can’t get a piece of wood from a splinter, or being from nothing, or movement without a mover. It is the same principle and is tied to the principle of non-contradiction.
Besides the fact that you’re not talking about causality in general, but only a very unusual sort of causality (one that we never observe), I don’t even think your conclusion follows!
I am talking about causality in principle. “These same irrational scientists who make that claim also question the Law of Non-Contradiction, using the same rationale. Are you ready to follow them down that road as well? If not, then your answer makes no sense.”
I’m open to being convinced that either the results of QM or my understanding of them are faulty, but it does seem to me that experiments have ruled out that causality on the quantum scale can jointly satisfy locality and realism. It seems to me that if these principles do not hold, that represents a very different sort of causality is going on in that domain. Do you have some references that show this is mistaken?
The problem is with the interpretation. Recall that many physicists do not go down that road, recognizing that unpredictability does not necessarily indicate causality. Some are modern day “atomists.” Just as there are many people who hope that the universe was created and has purpose, there are also those who hope that wasn’t (doesn’t).
No, Plantinga doesn’t do any of that. He simply points out that 100% certainty is unattainable, even for self-evident (or properly basic) assertions. When I made that same point here, you and everyone else was complaining that I couldn’t be certain that we couldn’t be certain!
I am asking specifically about the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Causality or the Law of the Whole/Part relationship, all of which can be metaphysically intuited, just as you can intuit the fact that you can’t get a ten-foot snowman from a piece of ice. Does he mention them by name and say that they are not certain? I need a direct quote on those specific matters. If he does say that, then he is in error.
Which formulation? If besides saying that you are the cause of actions, you also decide to add the claim that your decisions (for which you are responsible) are themselves not caused by any antecedents, then you have violated the LoC.
In some ways, but not all ways, my decisions are caused by antecedents. I cannot decide anything if the Creator does not keep me in existence. I cannot decide anything if the creator doesn’t give me a faculty of will. Like it or not, and I know you don’t, those are all causes. On the other hand, I do have the ability to cause things on my own by that same power. I can create a new chain of causes that would not have existed without me. So can you. “How does that explain your decision to stop smoking. Your characteristics and experiences had already changed you from a non-smoker to a smoker. What changed you back?”
My characteristics and experiences again, of course! We keep experiencing continuously, and every miniscule perception changes us. We never remain the same moment to moment. Aside from all of our characteristics as they have been affected by all of our experiences, what else are we?
I am not trying to be difficult, really I’m not. But I just don’t understand how you get the ability to resist an impulse from those elements alone. “You have specified that you do not accept the Law of Causality, either with respect to brick walls, quantum events, or universes.
That is my position. I know you hate it, but you can’t argue against it, so what do you do?
I refute it.
You reduce it to a silly little slogan (“RDF does not accept the LoC!”) and try and make it sound ridiculous (“He thinks brick walls can form in the highway!”) and hope my argument will go away.
Some things have to be dramatized in the form of an example. All you have to do is say that such a thing is, in principle, impossible and refrain from your proclivity to add a second clause that qualifies the first clause and the matter will be closed.
That is very bad form, Stephen. You know I’m not saying something stupid like brick walls can appear out of nowhere, so don’t pretend that. Either argue the points I’m making or concede, but don’t mischaracterize my position and then run away.
Well, let’s examine that. It seems to me that you have said something far more problematic than that. As I understand your philosophy, there is nothing in principle to prevent a universe from popping into existence without a cause. You did, after all, say this:
Yes, the Law of Causality cannot be demonstrated, but neither is it self-evident, like logical truths are. We believe in causality on the basis of induction, not logical necessity. And in situations where our intuitions and experience do not apply – such as the beginning of the universe or quantum phenomena – we really don’t know if causality works the way it works within the realm of our experience.
You are here indicating that causality may not apply to the origin of the universe, and you are clearly sympathetic with the absurd idea that new evidence can invalidate the principle of causality, either at the micro level or the macro level. If you think that it is possible for a universe to pop into existence without a cause, and you are clearly allowing for that possibility, then what do you have to say about a brick wall, which is a lot easier to produce than a universe. Or is it your position that it is a big problem for the former but not so much for the latter. StephenB
Hi Stephen,
RDF: Ok, so by your silence I assume you concede that my two formulations of “who is driving” are consistent after all. Thanks! SB: No, you can interpret my silence as an indication that I have no idea by what you mean by ““the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.
You said I contradicted myself, but I demonstrated there was no contradiction, all with no reference whatsoever to the meaning of that phrase. It doesn't actually make any difference what that phrase meant to see the consistency - you just made a reasoning error.
The Law of Causality, like the Law of Non-Contradiction, is not empirical. Each is inextricably tied to the other. An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. It can either receive being from itself or from something else.
What are you talking about? Let's say the cause is the impact of the cue ball and the effect is the motion of the 8-ball. What is the "being" in this example?
It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else. Thus, its existence depends on a cause.
Oh, I see: You're talking about one very special type of causation, which is causing something to exist. We never observe this sort of causation; in fact, science is predicated on the conservation laws which say this sort of causation never happens! You aren't talking about the sort of causation we encounter.
The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other.
Besides the fact that you're not talking about causality in general, but only a very unusual sort of causality (one that we never observe), I don't even think your conclusion follows! Look: Let "self-cause" mean "receive being from itself" Let "other-cause" mean "receive being from something else Here is your argument: 1) Self-cause contradicts LNC, and so self-cause is impossible 2) Therefore other-cause must be true In other words, IF LNC is valid, then self-cause is impossible. But one can reject the LNC and still accept that self-cause is impossible, and one can accept self-cause and reject the LNC. So your argument 1) doesn't address normal causality, and 2) fails to show the LNC and LoC stand or fail together. Back to the drawing board?
These same irrational scientists who make that claim also question the Law of Non-Contradiction, using the same rationale. Are you ready to follow them down that road as well? If not, then your answer makes no sense.
I'm open to being convinced that either the results of QM or my understanding of them are faulty, but it does seem to me that experiments have ruled out that causality on the quantum scale can jointly satisfy locality and realism. It seems to me that if these principles do not hold, that represents a very different sort of causality is going on in that domain. Do you have some references that show this is mistaken?
What does that have to do with the fact that a self-evident truth is one about which we can be certain. Did Plantinga specifically mention self-evident truths? Did he say that they were not self-evident after all? Did he question the Law of Causality or the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Whole/part relationships by name?
No, Plantinga doesn't do any of that. He simply points out that 100% certainty is unattainable, even for self-evident (or properly basic) assertions. When I made that same point here, you and everyone else was complaining that I couldn't be certain that we couldn't be certain!
RDF: You cause your actions, and you are responsible for your actions, and I’ve never thought or said anything to the contrary. SB: Well, I take it then that you concede that I am the cause of my actions
Yes, we agree you are the cause of your actions.
and that this formulation does not violate the Law of Causality.
Which formulation? If besides saying that you are the cause of actions, you also decide to add the claim that your decisions (for which you are responsible) are themselves not caused by any antecedents, then you have violated the LoC.
Sorry, but I can find no substance in that definition. What it sounds like to me is that we all have physical and mental characteristics and that our experiences change us, which is hardly a revelation.
I should hope it isn't a revelation! It was intended as a simple, straightforward definition of what the "self" is. So no, you're not missing anything. What you should notice however, is that there is no mention of causeless causes.
How does that explain your decision to stop smoking. Your characteristics and experiences had already changed you from a non-smoker to a smoker. What changed you back?
My characteristics and experiences again, of course! We keep experiencing continuously, and every miniscule perception changes us. We never remain the same moment to moment. Aside from all of our characteristics as they have been affected by all of our experiences, what else are we?
You have specified that you do not accept the Law of Causality, either with respect to brick walls, quantum events, or universes.
Here is my position on causality: 1) In our uniform and repeated experience, causality is never found to be violated. 2) We may therefore empirically induce causality as a Law - a well-justified truth - in the domain of our experience 3) It is not a logical necessity; we can imagine a violation of LoC without logical contradiction 4) There are empirical indications that causality at the quantum scale violates locality and realism, which means it is not the same sort of causality we observe 5) It also seems problematic to apply our notion of causality when the cause exists outside of time, since the concept relies on temporal antecedents That is my position. I know you hate it, but you can't argue against it, so what do you do? You reduce it to a silly little slogan ("RDF does not accept the LoC!") and try and make it sound ridiculous ("He thinks brick walls can form in the highway!") and hope my argument will go away ("Nothing more needs to be said about it."). That is very bad form, Stephen. You know I'm not saying something stupid like brick walls can appear out of nowhere, so don't pretend that. Either argue the points I'm making or concede, but don't mischaracterize my position and then run away. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
Yes, not ambiguous, you’re correct. But the point is if there’s no definition of “free” which doesn’t just invoke chance and necessity, then it hardly seems meaningful to argue about whether computer choices or human choices are free, and that’s what we’ve been going back and forth about for days now.
You are right - but I'd put it even stronger: It doesn't make any difference to morality and justice whether or not libertarianism is true. Maybe human choices are determined by physical law as we understand it, or maybe human choices are determined by physical laws that we don't yet understand, or maybe human choices are determined by... whatever it is libertarians think determines choices. It just doesn't matter, because in the end everyone is responsible for whatever they do.
Perhaps you could clear something up for me. On one hand, you have been arguing that computers can behave in a non-random and nondeterministic way.
If the input is non-random and nondeterministic, yes. I'm just saying that since programs can rewrite themselves based on input, programs can be nondeterministic in the same way the input is.
On the other hand, you’ve been suggesting that human behavior is determined but neither random nor free. Can you clear this up?
I don't know if human behavior is determined (and nobody else does either). But here's something you can clear up: I know what it means for an event to be determined by antecedent cause - it means there is a necessary, constant conjunction between the cause and the event. The concept of "random" is more complicated than that. But more difficult to understand still is what are you imagining might be neither determined nor random. What is it that determines what a free agent does, if a free agent is neither determined nor random? If nothing determines what a free agent does, then it seems the acts would be random. If something determines what a free agent does, then it seems determined.
When I argued from uniform and repeated experience that intelligent agents can produce computers, and that material processes cannot,
This argument has already assumed your conclusion in its premise by making "agents" and "material processes" mutually exclusive. You can't say this argument provides evidence when it simply assumes the conclusion. This is begging the question. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFIsh
Ok, so by your silence I assume you concede that my two formulations of “who is driving” are consistent after all. Thanks!
No, you can interpret my silence as an indication that I have no idea by what you mean by "“the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics."
I consider The Law of Causality to be empirical, yes, while the Law of Non-Contradiction is a self-evident law of logic. We can all be very certain that causality holds in our uniform and repeated experience, even though (as scordova has pointed out upthread) there is reason to believe that causality might not operate the same way in quantum contexts.
The Law of Causality, like the Law of Non-Contradiction, is not empirical. Each is inextricably tied to the other. An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. It can either receive being from itself or from something else. It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else. Thus, its existence depends on a cause. The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other.
We know, for example, that in quantum contexts causality cannot obey the principles of locality and realism, which really does suggest that causality as we understand it does not apply in those contexts.
No, we don’t know that at all. These same irrational scientists who make that claim also question the Law of Non-Contradiction, using the same rationale. Are you ready to follow them down that road as well? If not, then your answer makes no sense. “Just so that you will know, a self-evident truth is one of which you can be absolutely certain.”
I’ve already explained several times why philosophers – even famous Christian philosophers like Plantinga! – agree that there are always limits to the justification of knowledge.
Here comes another strawman. You were overdue. What does that have to do with the fact that a self-evident truth is one about which we can be certain. Did Plantinga specifically mention self-evident truths? Did he say that they were not self-evident after all? Did he question the Law of Causality or the Law of Non-Contradiction or the Law of Whole/part relationships by name? SB: When I say that I am the cause of my moral choices, you don’t accept that as a final answer, insisting that I should point to some antecedent cause, or, one gathers, the real cause.” RDF: On the contrary, I have never said any such thing. Over and over again I have said the opposite – you just need to read what I write more carefully. You cause your actions, and you are responsible for your actions, and I’ve never thought or said anything to the contrary. Well, I take it then that you concede that I am the cause of my actions and that this formulation does not violate the Law of Causality. Good. We can move on.
What I mean by “I” is this: We are born with a whole set of physical and mental characteristics, and throughout our lives we experience the world, and these experiences (every perception, etc) change us. At any given moment, we are the sum total of the characteristics we were born with as they have been changed by all of our experiences. That is what I mean by “me” or “I” or my “self”.
Sorry, but I can find no substance in that definition. What it sounds like to me is that we all have physical and mental characteristics and that our experiences change us, which is hardly a revelation. How does that explain your decision to stop smoking. Your characteristics and experiences had already changed you from a non-smoker to a smoker. What changed you back? [Are you now absolutely certain that every effect has a cause?]
This question would be more clear if you used the word “event” instead of “effect”. I think the word “effect” already implies a cause by definition.
This is very disingenuous. For you, the word effect doesn’t necessarily imply a cause at all. You have specified that you do not accept the Law of Causality, either with respect to brick walls, quantum events, or universes. You don’t think that effects necessarily require causes, this is clear. Nothing more needs to be said about it. StephenB
RDFish @334,
"That doesn’t make my definitions ambiguous, but you’re right – we can’t easily discuss that possibility without a term for it."
Yes, not ambiguous, you're correct. But the point is if there's no definition of "free" which doesn't just invoke chance and necessity, then it hardly seems meaningful to argue about whether computer choices or human choices are free, and that's what we've been going back and forth about for days now. Perhaps you could clear something up for me. On one hand, you have been arguing that computers can behave in a non-random and nondeterministic way. On the other hand, you've been suggesting that human behavior is determined but neither random nor free. Can you clear this up?
"You could try to say which experiences or observations you think make the existence of these contra-causal events highly likely. I think there are no such experiences or observations."
When I argued from uniform and repeated experience that intelligent agents can produce computers, and that material processes cannot, and that this was suggestive of non-random contingent causation, you dismissed this as "irrelevant" and shifted the burden of proof back to me. I may argue it again to emphasize the warrant, but not this evening. Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB, Ok, so by your silence I assume you concede that my two formulations of "who is driving" are consistent after all. Thanks!
Well, your position seems to be morphing
Actually no, my position on LoC and LNC have been consistent too.
RDF: We can be absolutely certain that such a thing [brick wall coming from out of nowhere] can not happen, but our knowledge is empirically rather than logically based. The conservation laws that such an event would violate are arguably the most results of modern science – but they are not logically necessary. SB: So, clearly you did not, at this earlier point, think that causality was a Law in the form of a self-evident truth but rather an uncertain, empirically-based, proposition related in some way to scientific knowledge.
I thought neither of those things. First, I was referring to conservation laws rather than causality. Second, I said that they were empirically-based, but not uncertain! I said they are arguably the most certain results of modern science!
So, again you questioned the Law of Causality, reducing it to an empirical probability.
I consider The Law of Causality to be empirical, yes, while the Law of Non-Contradiction is a self-evident law of logic. We can all be very certain that causality holds in our uniform and repeated experience, even though (as scordova has pointed out upthread) there is reason to believe that causality might not operate the same way in quantum contexts. We know, for example, that in quantum contexts causality cannot obey the principles of locality and realism, which really does suggest that causality as we understand it does not apply in those contexts.
Just so that you will know, a self-evident truth is one of which you can be absolutely certain.
I've already explained several times why philosophers - even famous Christian philosophers like Plantinga! - agree that there are always limits to the justification of knowledge. If you'd like to know more about this, I would suggest you read a general introduction to epistemology, or even review Plantinga's arguments against naturalism based on the likelihood (or doubt) of our minds being reliable.
RDF: First, here is my position: What causes my actions? I do. Who is responsible for my actions? I am. What do I mean by “I”? I mean “the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.” SB: This is all very confusing.
I'll say! Philosophy is hard, and very confusing! That is why it is so important to carefully define our terms.
When I say that I am the cause of my moral choices, you don’t accept that as a final answer, insisting that I should point to some antecedent cause, or, one gathers, the real cause.
On the contrary, I have never said any such thing. Over and over again I have said the opposite - you just need to read what I write more carefully. You cause your actions, and you are responsible for your actions, and I've never thought or said anything to the contrary. What I said was that my position did not depend on any metaphysical speculations regarding the nature of mental causation or volition. It simply doesn't matter, in my view, what is true about libertarianism. No matter what, you are the cause of your actions, and you are responsible for them. (Doesn't this even ring a bell? I must have said these things to you fifty times by now!)
Why is it, then, that when you say that you are the cause of your moral actions, you don’t point to some other cause, as you asked me to do, but rather point to the very same cause, that is, the I, and then simply describe it as “the totality of my experience acting upon my inherent characteristics.”
And yet again, we both believe the same thing about what the cause of our actions is: We are, each of us, the cause of our own actions. Likewise, we both believe that we are, each of us, responsible for our own actions. The difference is this (and yes, it matters what we mean by "the totality of our experience acting upon my inherent characteristics): What I mean by "I" is this: We are born with a whole set of physical and mental characteristics, and throughout our lives we experience the world, and these experiences (every perception, etc) change us. At any given moment, we are the sum total of the characteristics we were born with as they have been changed by all of our experiences. That is what I mean by "me" or "I" or my "self". I've asked you what you mean by "I" and your answer is this: "The self. The person. The causal agent. The thinker. The chooser." I agree with all of these descriptions with the possible exception of "causal agent", depending on what meaning you are packing into that term. To me, it makes no different if "causal agency" operates according to physical laws we know of, physical laws we do not yet know of, or laws that somehow are outside of what we consider physical. These are esoteric metaphysical questions that nobody knows the answer to, and they should have nothing to do with whether or not you are responsible for stealing a car or blowing up a building. No need to reference antecedent cause, and no need to claim there were no antecedent causes. We don't know if human beings are contra-causal, but that just doesn't change the fact that we are responsible for what we do.
Are you now absolutely certain that every effect has a cause?
This question would be more clear if you used the word "event" instead of "effect". I think the word "effect" already implies a cause by definition. Again, though, I do not think we can be certain that in contexts removed from our everyday experience that every event has a cause, mainly because of experimental results from quantum physics. Another context where causality does not seem to make sense is the beginning of the universe. Since causality requires a temporal relationship (the cause must be temporally prior to, or simultaneous with, the effect), our conception of causality does not seem relevant to a situation where nothing could be temporally prior (i.e. the beginning of time itself). Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
CR:Your definition of “free” isn’t free of ambiguity. RDF: Why? CR:Because your definition doesn’t seem to allow for the possibility under debate here: that there is a contingent phenomenon that is non-random.
That doesn't make my definitions ambiguous, but you're right - we can't easily discuss that possibility without a term for it.
Do you see this conversation progressing any further? You seem highly skeptical of any true free choice; and I think it’s highly likely that it exists based on our experiences and observations.
You could try to say which experiences or observations you think make the existence of these contra-causal events highly likely. I think there are no such experiences or observations. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
SB: "Among other things, you have challenged the Law of Causality and you equivocate on the Law of Non-contradiction. RDF: "No, now you are mistaken again – I’ve said quite the opposite about a hundred times (that no reasonable person can doubt these rules). Well, your position seems to be morphing. First, you wrote,
We can be absolutely certain that such a thing [brick wall coming from out of nowhere] can not happen, but our knowledge is empirically rather than logically based. The conservation laws that such an event would violate are arguably the most results of modern science – but they are not logically necessary.
So, clearly you did not, at this earlier point, think that causality was a Law in the form of a self-evident truth but rather an uncertain, empirically-based, proposition related in some way to scientific knowledge. Later, you wrote,
You’re right I did mispeak: I should not have said “absolutely certain”, but rather I should have said “certain” or “extremely certain”. Unlike logical results, scientific results are always provisional and based on empirical observation. They are never 100% certain and based on logical necessity. I also left out a word there – it should read that conservation laws “are arguably the most certain results of modern science”. But even that doesn’t mean that the conservation laws are 100% certain.
So, again you questioned the Law of Causality, reducing it to an empirical probability. You also indicated that you wouldn’t rule out the possibility that a brick wall can appear from out of nowhere. You were not “absolutely” certain. Just so that you will know, a self-evident truth is one of which you can be absolutely certain. Are you now absolutely certain that every effect has a cause? If so, then you will also be absolutely certain of a First Cause, which is inextricably tied to the Law of Causality.
First, here is my position: What causes my actions? I do. Who is responsible for my actions? I am. What do I mean by “I”? I mean “the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.”
This is all very confusing. When I say that I am the cause of my moral choices, you don’t accept that as a final answer, insisting that I should point to some antecedent cause, or, one gathers, the real cause. Why is it, then, that when you say that you are the cause of your moral actions, you don’t point to some other cause, as you asked me to do, but rather point to the very same cause, that is, the I, and then simply describe it as “the totality of my experience acting upon my inherent characteristics.” (We can, for now, put aside the question of that that series of words could possibly mean)
Now, what is your position? I’ve filled in the first two for you: 1) What causes my actions? I do. 2) Who is responsible for my actions? I am. 3) What do I mean by “I”? I mean.
The self. The person. The causal agent. The thinker. The chooser. StephenB
RDFish @331,
Your definition of “free” isn’t free of ambiguity.
Why?
Because your definition doesn't seem to allow for the possibility under debate here: that there is a contingent phenomenon that is non-random.
Does your definition entail chance, necessity, and neither?
No, my definitions do not entail that anything acts outside of chance and necessity. Your defintions don’t actually entail such things either: You define “free” to mean “not determined or random”, but you don’t actually say that this sort of freedom exists in the world.
That's exactly what's under discussion, so it seems to me that to exclude non-random contingency, by definition, the way your definition does, will not even allow for the possibility of anything beyond chance and necessity. It assumes C/N is all there is, and then defines "free" under that assumption.
"Again, I think your definitions are just fine. They imply that based on what we know, computers do not make free choices, but that humans still might – we don’t know."
I found it necessary to include the definition to allow for the possibility of true freedom: neither necessary nor random (nor impossible). I don't see how we can exclude the possibility of a causal phenomenon that is nondeterministic and non-random without defining one and making the requisite comparisons.
"I actually am not sure if we disagree on anything at all, once we clear up our terminology!"
Virtually anything is possible. :D Do you see this conversation progressing any further? You seem highly skeptical of any true free choice; and I think it's highly likely that it exists based on our experiences and observations. Neither of us is likely to be convinced by the other. Chance Ratcliff
Hi Chance,
Can you tell me why your definition is more apt than mine?
No, I don't think mine are more apt - they are just different.
Does your definition entail chance, necessity, and neither?
No, my definitions do not entail that anything acts outside of chance and necessity. Your defintions don't actually entail such things either: You define "free" to mean "not determined or random", but you don't actually say that this sort of freedom exists in the world.
Since we’re agreed that “nobody knows for certain,” it would seem a definition of “free” that does not distinguish between random and nondeterministic is not very useful.
I guess it depends on how you are using the terminology in your assertions.
determined: neither impossible nor contingent. free: neither determined nor random. Free as per above entails neither random nor determined, and so it is actually applicable to this discussion.
Right, I agree.
Your definition of “free” isn’t free of ambiguity.
Why?
RDF: It might be that everything is determined, and neither pure randomness nor “free agency” is possible – nobody knows.” CR: Yes, it might be, as in the probability is not zero. Therefore, it’s just as likely as not?
We have no way to assign any sort of probability to the various answers. Nobody understands how minds work, and if they adhere to or transcend physical cause.
Your definitions need to encapsulate the various causal factors under discussion and make distinctions between chance, necessity, and free (neither chance nor necessity), since you agree these are all possible.
I think we're pretty clear here, actually. Yes it is possible that there is a different sort of cause that is not a physical cause, or maybe there is no such thing. We don't know.
You’ve already said my definitions were fine, and under those definitions, all three potentials exist.
You can't make something exist simply by defining it, obviously. I don't know what you mean by "potentials exist". I'd say you have a meaningful definition, but we don't know if what you have defined exists in the world.
Under my definitions, computers don’t make free choices but humans still might.
I agree.
Under my definitions, we can make the necessary distinctions. If this turns out not to be the case, they can be amended.
Again, I think your definitions are just fine. They imply that based on what we know, computers do not make free choices, but that humans still might - we don't know. I actually am not sure if we disagree on anything at all, once we clear up our terminology! Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish @328,
"My definition of “free choice” was making a choice based on internal states, and obviously computers make free choices according to that definition."
Can you tell me why your definition is more apt than mine? Does your definition entail chance, necessity, and neither? Since we're agreed that "nobody knows for certain," it would seem a definition of "free" that does not distinguish between random and nondeterministic is not very useful. determined: neither impossible nor contingent. free: neither determined nor random. Free as per above entails neither random nor determined, and so it is actually applicable to this discussion. Your definition of "free" isn't free of ambiguity.
"I mean “not deterministically”. Whatever form of nondeterminism exists in the universe can result in nondeterminism in the program. It might be that everything is determined, and neither pure randomness nor “free agency” is possible – nobody knows."
Yes, it might be, as in the probability is not zero. Therefore, it's just as likely as not? determined: necessary. not determined: not necessary but not impossible; that is, contingent. contingent: neither impossible nor necessary; that is, random or free. Your definitions need to encapsulate the various causal factors under discussion and make distinctions between chance, necessity, and free (neither chance nor necessity), since you agree these are all possible. You've already said my definitions were fine, and under those definitions, all three potentials exist. Under my definitions, computers don't make free choices but humans still might. Under my definitions, we can make the necessary distinctions. If this turns out not to be the case, they can be amended. Chance Ratcliff
Hi StephenB,
RDF: *—I am [responsible for my actions]. I choose my actions and initiate them, and I think this is just an obvious fact. The critical question is, What causes me to choose my actions? Your answer is nothing, and my answer is the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics. *—What causes my actions? I do Who is responsible for my actions? I am What do I mean by I. I mean the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics SB: Your second formulation seems to contradict the first formulation. In the first formulation you indicate that you and your choices ARE CAUSED BY the totality of your experiences acting upon your inherent characteristics.
Let T = "the totality of my experience acting upon inherent characteristics" Let C = "the cause of my actions" Let I = "me, my self" In my first formulation, I assert that C = T
IN the second formulation, you say that you ARE the totality of your experiences acting upon your inherent characteristics.
In my second formulation, I assert that C = I, and furthermore that I = T If C = I and I = T then by transitivity C = T, which is the assertion in my first formulation. So no, there is no contradiction.
I am certain that you do not know the answer to these Big Questions: 1) Why is there something rather than nothing? 2) How did life come to exist on Earth? 3) What is the nature of mind and its relationship to the brain? 4) Is mental causality ontologically distinct? Why did you bring these subjects up? I have said nothing about them and they are not relevant to the discussion, so there is no reason to introduce them. As I say, stop looking for strawmen.
Honestly it's too difficult to start searching this thread for how these long discussions get started, and perhaps it was Phinehas or Chance who challenged the validity (and even the coherence) of my assertion that I was certain these Big Questions had no certain answers. My sincere apologies if this does not reflect your position; I will assume you agree with me that none of these questions currently have certain answers.
Among other things, you have challenged the Law of Causality and you equivocate on the Law of Non-contradiction.
No, now you are mistaken again - I've said quite the opposite about a hundred times (that no reasonable person can doubt these rules).
In a way, I am sympathetic with your feelings even if not your position because I know that you have been steeped in an anti-intellectual culture and possibly a postmodernist academy. Perhaps my directness offends you, but lets’ face it, we have been dancing for two weeks. There comes a time when we have to put diplomacy aside and call things by their right name. The above paragraph is an equivocation, plain and simple.
I am neither anti-intellectual nor remotely postmodern :-) Would you say Alvin Plantinga is anti-intellectual or postmodernist? I sure wouldn't. Yet he writes book-length arguments that acknowledge that (whether or not one believes in naturalism) there is a finite chance that our minds are unreliable, in which case any belief at all may be false. Now, I'd like to ask you again to please clarify our central disagreement with regard to, as you say, who is driving the train: First, here is my position: 1) What causes my actions? I do. 2) Who is responsible for my actions? I am. 3) What do I mean by “I”? I mean “the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.” Now, what is your position? I’ve filled in the first two for you: 1) What causes my actions? I do. 2) Who is responsible for my actions? I am. 3) What do I mean by “I”? I mean ____________________________________. (please fill this in) Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
RDF: Therefore, if the input is nondeterministic, the program itself can change nondeterministically CR: What do you mean by nondeterminstically: freely or randomly?
I mean "not deterministically". Whatever form of nondeterminism exists in the universe can result in nondeterminism in the program. It might be that everything is determined, and neither pure randomness nor "free agency" is possible - nobody knows.
Please explain how your program is nondeterministic,...
Just did!
...and how we can test this if it never terminates and runs a second time on the same input.
Where do you get this requirement from?
RDF: Of course by your definition computers do not make free choices! That is perfectly obvious! CR: Great! Contra your assertion at #211 and #218, it’s perfectly obvious that computers do not make free choices.
Hahahahaha - ooh, you'd just love to catch me contradicting myself! Too bad, you forgot about the part where I say Of course by your definition. Hahahahaha. As you can see, in 211 and 218 I was using my definitions. Better luck next time :-) My definition of "free choice" was making a choice based on internal states, and obviously computers make free choices according to that definition. Your definition of "free choice" is "neither random nor determined", and obviously computers do not make free choices according to that definition. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi WJM,
WJM: Isn’t “never” an absolute?
Take the most self-evident truth you can imagine - the LoC or modus ponens or the Peano axioms or anything else. Anyone can question any of these in any number of ways, including one way that is currently employed in a popular argument against naturalism: We cannot absolutely prove that our own minds are reliable. (Perhaps you've read Plantinga?) Well, it is true that nobody can prove that they are not deluded, because if one was sufficiently deluded, they would not be able to recognize their delusions, and this alone is sufficient to argue that nothing is immune to doubt. You might also be the only conscious being in existence, or even hallucinating all of reality, and you have no way of absolutely proving that this is not the case. Descartes famously travelled this path to hyper-skepticism, and sought to return by building the rest of his beliefs upon the undeniable fact of his own phenomenology. Philosophers have never managed to ground all of our beliefs merely on cogito, however, so we decide that there is a point where reasonable people simply must stop questioning self-evident truths, lest we become utterly paralyzed in our thoughts. As I've emphasized here many times, reasonable people can and do achieve certainty about any number of things - both self-evident truths and empirically-based truths - and so we all consider knowledge to be possible, even though our justifications can never be logically absolute. I hope this helps you understand the limits of knowledge and justification. If you'd like to know more, I would recommend reading a general introduction to epistemology. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
RDFish @315,
So I assert that programs which do not incorporate true random number generation are deterministic.
Forget randomness. If input is nondeterministic, the program can change nondeterministically. Really.
What sot of non-random nondeterminism are you advocating? Chance Ratcliff
"What do you mean by “agency”?"
Agency "In philosophy and sociology, agency is the capacity of an agent (a person or other entity, human or any living being in general, or soul-consciousness in religion) to act in a world." ... "Agency may either be classified as unconscious, involuntary behavior, or purposeful, goal directed activity (intentional action). An agent typically has some sort of immediate awareness of his physical activity and the goals that the activity is aimed at realizing. In ‘goal directed action’ an agent implements a kind of direct control or guidance over their own behavior." I see why you are confused. When I said that computers are the result of intelligent agency, you thought I might be referring to unconscious, involuntary behavior rather than purposeful, goal-directed activity (intentional action). I didn't mean to be so ambiguous. Chance Ratcliff
RDFish
*---I am [responsible for my actions]. I choose my actions and initiate them, and I think this is just an obvious fact. The critical question is, What causes me to choose my actions? Your answer is nothing, and my answer is the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics. *---What causes my actions? I do Who is responsible for my actions? I am What do I mean by I. I mean the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics
Your second formulation seems to contradict the first formulation. In the first formulation you indicate that you and your choices ARE CAUSED BY the totality of your experiences acting upon your inherent characteristics. IN the second formulation, you say that you ARE the totality of your experiences acting upon your inherent characteristics.
I am certain that you do not know the answer to these Big Questions: 1) Why is there something rather than nothing? 2) How did life come to exist on Earth? 3) What is the nature of mind and its relationship to the brain? 4) Is mental causality ontologically distinct?
Why did you bring these subjects up? I have said nothing about them and they are not relevant to the discussion, so there is no reason to introduce them. As I say, stop looking for strawmen.
A “first cause” is certainly a theological concept, but obviously all theological concepts are also philosophical. In any event, for the third time I’m going to suggest we agree to disagree about the conflict between libertarianism and causality. You think that by introducing God into the topic you can eliminate the contradiction. I disagree.
You asked about antecedent causes, I identified them, and now you wonder why I "introduced" the topic. Maybe that works for you, but it doesn't work for me.
I’ve never disagreed with that! Not just your “rules of right reason” but all of logico-mathematical reasoning is epistemologically privileged.
Among other things, you have challenged the Law of Causality and you equivocate on the Law of Non-contradiction.
But that does not mean we can say even these things are absolutely certain for precisely the reason I said: We can always question everything. Maybe we have both been drugged by evil demons and our minds are deluded and we think the LNC is self-evident when it really isn’t! We can always question everything. Too bad, and I know you hate it, but it’s true. Reasonable people like us do not indulge in this sort of hyper-skepticism, but that is why nothing is 100% absolute in epistemology.
In a way, I am sympathetic with your feelings even if not your position because I know that you have been steeped in an anti-intellectual culture and possibly a postmodernist academy. Perhaps my directness offends you, but lets' face it, we have been dancing for two weeks. There comes a time when we have to put diplomacy aside and call things by their right name. The above paragraph is an equivocation, plain and simple. StephenB
RDFish @315,
"Of course by your definition computers do not make free choices! That is perfectly obvious!"
Great! Contra your assertion at #211 and #218, it's perfectly obvious that computers do not make free choices. Chance Ratcliff
I don’t think this is controversial.
It’s not controversial. You are mistaken about this, and I’m right.
Please explain how your program is nondeterministic, and how we can test this if it never terminates and runs a second time on the same input. Chance Ratcliff
RDFish @315,
"In your example, yes. However we’ve already established that programs can rewrite themselves, and they can do so differently depending on input. Therefore, if the input is nondeterministic, the program itself can change nondeterministically."
What do you mean by nondeterminstically: freely or randomly? choice: a selection from among multiple options. determined: necessary -- neither impossible nor contingent. free: neither determined nor random. Chance Ratcliff
Certainty is never absolute.
Isn't "never" an absolute?
In other words, nobody knows if chance, necessity, and agency are three different things.
Isn't "nobody" an absolute?
all theological concepts are also philosophicaL
Isn't "all" an absolute?
No reasonable person would deny them
Isn't "No resonable person" an absolute?
Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
Isn't "Everyone" an absolute?
You cannot use rules of logic to determine that the sentence is meaningless!
Isn't "cannot" an absolute? William J Murray
F/N: Just to see what happens, consider how RDF handles self evident truths on being confronted with no less than three that are absolutely certain and undeniable on pain of immediate incoherence and absurdity:
STEP 1, 316 above, but of course I affirm such: >> In my very last post I said There are innumerable things about which we can be certain and I also said That does NOT mean that we can’t be certain of things! How much more clear can I make it? >>
But the trick is that he has question-beggingly redefined "certainty" in a subjectivist frame, so a little later we see step 2:
STEP 2, the other show drops: >> self-evident truths are exactly like that. No reasonable person would deny them, even though we cannot ground them in empirical evidence . . . all of logico-mathematical reasoning is epistemologically privileged. But that does not mean we can say even these things are absolutely certain for precisely the reason I said: We can always question everything. Maybe we have both been drugged by evil demons and our minds are deluded and we think the LNC is self-evident when it really isn’t! We can always question everything. Too bad, and I know you hate it, but it’s true. Reasonable people like us do not indulge in this sort of hyper-skepticism, but that is why nothing is 100% absolute in epistemology. >>
Notice, he has in hands as one of the self evident truth, one that directly responds to the brains in vats, Plato's cave etc worlds. Royce's Error exists. This is not just true by consent of our experience (which BTW we always bring to the table, so to suggest that self evident truths have no empirical context is itself a game, a suggestion that they are a synonym for things true by definition, which is NOT the case), but the attempt to deny it leads immediately to an instantiation of its truth. Say, call the proposition E, then E can be inverted NOT-E. Put the two together, E AND not-E, that combination MUST be false so it is a case of the truth of E. And, what does RDF suggest by way of objection, well we could be deluded. Which would be, a case of E being true. See what happens when someone plays around, snipping, ignoring context and sniping, twisting and side-slipping, snidely accusing those who patiently have corrected him. And BTW, RDF, you have yet to apologise for falsely accusing me of greed in suggesting to you that you go to a summary on first principles. KF kairosfocus
RDF: Stephen is exactly on target. Your twist about attempt to project a strawman fallacy fails. With one hand you put the principles of sound reasoning on the table, then you proceed with the other hand to take them off again, predictably. If such a sleight of hand is not spotted for what it is, incoherence, it will confuse the naive onlooker. SB has spotted it, as have others. KF kairosfocus
Re RDF:
you really are missing the point. You are assuming that human beings are “agents” and that when “agents” do things they operate by means that are neither random nor determined. But that is just your assumption – nobody knows if that is true or not. In other words, nobody knows if chance, necessity, and agency are three different things.
Really, after experiencing yourself as an agent for decades? (In short, this is self referentially incoherent.) Also, as already pointed out but as usual ignored, mechanical necessity produces natural regularity. So it has a clear defining characteristic similar to F = m*a. Second, chance shows itself by stochastically distributed patterns, i.e. the familiar statistical scatter. Combining the two, we get a spectrum, from scatter on a strong tend, to trend in a broad scatter. Now, introduce what RDF et al are loathe to acknowledge as real: FSCO/I, including especially dFSCI. Where, the above clip is a case in point -- self referential again. Indeed, in the above, we have 339 ASCII characters, which come from a space of 2.21 * 10^714 possibilities. Across the credible lifespan of the observed cosmos and using its atomic resources running at chemical rxn speed, the needle in haystack blind search on chance and/or necessity, would with all but absolute certainty, not be able to find anything but straw with a 1-straw sized sample, with such a haystack superposed on our cosmos. That is because the vastly overwhelming bulk would be straw, not anything else. In short, one of the uses of the explanatory filter that RDF et al so despise and dismiss, is to help us understand the difference between what blind natural forces and intelligent design are capable of. But, ideological blindness does just that: it blinds. In short, we see here a case of -- despite already being corrected and having access to corrective resources -- willful clinging to absurdity. RDF is inadvertently making himself into a poster child. KF PS: RDF, if you are in a hole and need to climb out, stop digging in further. kairosfocus
Hi StephenB,
If you are not afraid of a First Cause, then you should not bristle when the subject is broached in a relevant context.
Please show me the part where I bristled, Stephen - you'll see you are mistaken.
A first cause is not a theological concept, it is a philosophical concept. However, I am not surprised that you would, once again, try to obfuscate the matter with word manipulation.
You are such an angry guy! Always accusing me of lying or obfuscating or hiding something or some other bad behavior. Can't you just debate these things without getting all huffy and aggressive? What are you so angry about? A "first cause" is certainly a theological concept, but obviously all theological concepts are also philosophical. In any event, for the third time I'm going to suggest we agree to disagree about the conflict between libertarianism and causality. You think that by introducing God into the topic you can eliminate the contradiction. I disagree.
RDF: What causes me to choose my actions? Your answer is nothing, and my answer is the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics. SB: If your experiences are the cause of you exercising you volitional capacities,...
Ok, here's a little test. Q: What did I say causes my choices? A: I said the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics Q: What did you pretend that I said? A: You pretended that I said my experiences. Will you ever stop changing what I say? You've done this like ten times now. Now, actually look at what I'm saying instead of pretending I'm saying something else: My inherent characteristics - what I was born with, my senses, my reasoning faculties, my body... everything that I am... that is me. What causes my actions? The totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.
If you are simply the effect of your experiences, then you cannot be the ultimate cause of your actions. Either your experiences are driving the train or you are driving the train. Which is it?
I am driving the train. I am the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.
Yes, but you have provided no rational justification given your view that the sum total of your experiences is driving the process.
Ok, let's try to clear this up and at least clarify exactly what we disagree on. First, here is my position: 1) What causes my actions? I do. 2) Who is responsible for my actions? I am. 3) What do I mean by "I"? I mean "the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics." Now, what is your position? I've filled in the first two for you: 1) What causes my actions? I do. 2) Who is responsible for my actions? I am. 3) What do I mean by "I"? I mean ____________________________________. (please fill this in) That is what we disagree about, pure and simple.
The question is, how can you change the direction of the sum total your experiences if your experiences are the cause of you and your actions?
Because if you hadn't changed what I said, you'd know that your experiences are not the cause of you and your actions.
RDF: 2) Certainty is never absolute simply because epistemology is not solved. This is not controversial; SB: Does this mean that, contrary to your earlier claim that you are certain about the Law of Non-Contradiction, you are now going to withhold judgment on the matter until the problem of epistemology is solved?
And once again, you can't seem to argue against what I actually say, and so you pretend that I say something else which is stupid, so you can pretend that you have caught me in some error. That is a waste of time, and it is irritating, and it makes you look desperate to score some sort of points here. As any fair reader of our posts can tell, I have never said we need to withold any judgements until the problem of epistemology is solved, much less a judgement about a principle of formal logic! In fact, I have said the opposite, over and over and over again. In my very last post I said There are innumerable things about which we can be certain and I also said That does NOT mean that we can’t be certain of things! How much more clear can I make it? This is actually pathetic.
That is exactly what I have been telling you for two weeks and a point that you have been resisting mightily. The Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are so certain that no reasonable person would refuse to accept them. The findings of science are only relatively certain. They might be refuted tomorrow. All empirical knowledge is like that. Most things are like that.
Breathe... deeply... relax... it's only an internet debate... no reason to get angry... Ok, I'm better now. Steven, I have been telling you that for two weeks. It's too late and these threads are too long to go look for our quotes, but I have said dozens of times that no reasonable person (and certainly never me) ever doubts laws of logic, and that empirical facts are provisional.
Self-evident truths ARE NOT LIKE THAT.
Yes, self-evident truths are exactly like that. No reasonable person would deny them, even though we cannot ground them in empirical evidence.
The Rules of right reason belong at the top. The number of moons that orbit a planet ranks high, but not at the very top. That information is provisional, and changeable, the rules of right reason are not.
I've never disagreed with that! Not just your "rules of right reason" but all of logico-mathematical reasoning is epistemologically privileged. But that does not mean we can say even these things are absolutely certain for precisely the reason I said: We can always question everything. Maybe we have both been drugged by evil demons and our minds are deluded and we think the LNC is self-evident when it really isn't! We can always question everything. Too bad, and I know you hate it, but it's true. Reasonable people like us do not indulge in this sort of hyper-skepticism, but that is why nothing is 100% absolute in epistemology.
SB: I am certain that I don’t know them either. Give your strawman a vacation. RDF: And I am equally convinced that you don’t know why there is something rather than nothing, or if mental causality is ontologically distinct, or any of several other Big Questions. SB: Those examples are irrelevant to the Rules of right reason.
Talk about strawman arguments! Unbelievable! I am very, very clearly arguing that you do not know the answer to the questions I listed, and you turn around and pretend that I'm telling you that you don't know the Rules of Right Reason! What is wrong with you? I am certain that you do not know the answer to these Big Questions: 1) Why is there something rather than nothing? 2) How did life come to exist on Earth? 3) What is the nature of mind and its relationship to the brain? 4) Is mental causality ontologically distinct? Don't change the subject and start talking about logic rules. I'm talking about the fact that I am certain that neither you nor anyone else knows the answers to the questions I just listed.
RDF: I’m very certain about is that we have no good reason to think we understand any of these ancient conundrums. SB: And I am very certain that I just refuted you with two self-evident truths that cannot be rationally disavowed.
One last time: I said I was certain you don't know the answers to the Big Questions. You changed the subject to talk about self-evident truths of logic. You can't win a debate by beating straw men, Stephen. Please respond to what I'm actually saying. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Chance,
The above program is deterministic....However if getX() has a nondeterministic source, then the pattern of true and false outputs will be nondeterministic. This doesn’t change the fact that the program itself is deterministic. Inputs are mapped to outputs deterministically. Once the program is written and compiled, it will behave exactly the same way, outputting “True” if X is true and “False” otherwise.
In your example, yes. However we've already established that programs can rewrite themselves, and they can do so differently depending on input. Therefore, if the input is nondeterministic, the program itself can change nondeterministically.
So I assert that programs which do not incorporate true random number generation are deterministic.
Forget randomness. If input is nondeterministic, the program can change nondeterministically. Really.
I don’t think this is controversial.
It's not controversial. You are mistaken about this, and I'm right.
The question now shifts to whether any nondeterministic inputs exist. For the sake of argument, and to avoid any possible question begging, we should exclude biological phenomena. That being the case, do any nondeterministic events exist from the big bang onward?...So at best we can have nondeterministic input which is not “free” as per my definition.
You have just said that aside from biological systems, there is no such thing as a process that is neither random nor determined. OK.
Since no “free” inputs exist, no “choice” that a computer makes can be free.
Given your definitions, this is true, yes.
Given all this, the inputs can be no more than the product of chance and necessity; and since the input is filtered through the program, which is itself deterministic, the output can be no more than the product of chance and necessity.
Yes.
RDF: My definition says “internal states” (plural), but to clear up any confusion, I could add that unchanging structure does not constitute “states”. CR: But why bother?
Because my definitions said that systems that make choices based on internal states (plural) are said to make free choices. A system that cannot change state cannot make free choices in my terminology.
However we may have some warrant to reasonably infer that humans make free choices. I’ll revisit this.
People have been revisiting this for a few thousand years now, and nobody has come up with a way to resolve it. But good luck with it!
RDF: To be clear, you should use something like “conscious mind” instead of “agency”.” CF: I think the term agency is acceptable, philosophical terminology.
The question is not whether it is "acceptable" - it is whether it is well-defined. We all know (from subjective experience) what a conscious mind is. "Agency" can mean different things, however.
According to Wikipedia, “In philosophy and sociology, agency is the capacity of an agent (a person or other entity, human or any living being in general, or soul-consciousness in religion) to act in a world.”
From the very same Wiki article:
Agency may either be classified as unconscious, involuntary behavior, or purposeful, goal directed activity (intentional action).
This is only one of many possible variations on the notion of agency. If you want to use the term that's fine, but you'll need to define it in order to enable us to discuss it without talking past each other.
If a computer program runs from state zero on the same input, it will produce the same output.
Yes.
Your program is still deterministic on this condition, which is the only criteria available for evaluation.
Why? If you just let it run, the program is still deterministic, but it produces different output given the same input.
RDF: You said a deterministic program will always give the same output for the same input. You didn’t say anything about halting the program or restarting it!!! CR: If you have another way to evaluate whether a program is deterministic, please lay it out plainly. If your program has the same output on identical input, from the initial starting state, then it is deterministic.
I really don't understand what the point is here. I've argued that (1) computer programs can produce different output given the same input, even without randomizers, and that (2) programs can be rewritten dynamically based on different input, and that (3) if the input is non-deterministic, then the program can be non-deterministic, again without random number generation. In any event, here is what is true with regard to human thought vs. computer thought: 1) Humans are conscious, and computers are certainly not 2) Computers can outperform humans in some areas of mental ability, but there really is no comparison between machine intelligence and human intelligence 3) Even though computers operate stricly according to deterministic causality, the output of programs can be indetermistic depending upon what input is received 3) It might be that human minds operate strictly according to deterministic causality, or it might be that humans have a special sort of causation (viz. mental causation). Nobody knows the answer to this.
RDF: we cannot equate a computer program with human behavior because they are fundamentally incomparable.They are radically different and incommensurable for sure. Whether there is an ontological distinction, nobody knows. CF: No, we can’t be absolutely certain about it, just as we cannot be absolutely certain that the sun will rise tomorrow as it always has, but I think it’s more reasonable than the alternative.
No, no, no. There is not one single shred of evidence that any process in the universe, including those that occur in the brains of human beings, operates neither deterministically nor randomly. In contrast, there is a gigantic body of evidence that suggests the sun will rise tomorrow.
Falsifying the premise falsifies the universal claim, that any instance of a computer implies agency.
What do you mean by "agency"?
I’m certainly concluding that humans have a special kind of power. I’m not just assuming it. I think that this inference is warranted by observation — by uniform and repeated experience.
No, you are just assuming it, even though you think you are inferring it.
We have numerous instances of technology being produced by humans, and no instances of technology being produced by chance and necessity.
No, you've just done it again: You have assumed, and not inferred, that "being produced by a human" is not the same as "being produced by chance and necessity". Do you understand this point?
This constitutes a reliable warrant that humans can cause technology, and that material processes cannot.
And you have once again assumed your conclusion. How do you know that humans are not material?
This warrant can be nullified by either a) demonstrating that chance and necessity can produce technology; or b) demonstrating that chance and necessity can produce humans.
All of this is irrelevant, because you first need to demonstrate that humans do not operate according to chance and necessity.
When “agents” do things that cannot be accounted for by chance and necessity, they are performing a unique causal action.
Nobody knows if anything can do anything that cannot be accounted for by chance and necessity. When we play chess, or design a car, or write a poem, it might be due to nothing but our neurons firing in our brains according to fixed law.
Recall my definition of free: neither determined nor random. This equates to: neither necessity nor chance.
Right. We have no evidence at all that anything in the uninverse is "free" according to your definition.
Remember, this isn’t formal proof, it’s evidentiary proof. In other words, I think it constitutes sufficient evidence.
You have no evidence whatsoever that human beings do not operate according to chance and necessity. I hope by now you get the idea :-)
But I think I have shown that by my definition of free, computers do not make free choices.
???? Of course by your definition computers do not make free choices! That is perfectly obvious! Computers act deterministically (even though the output of programs may be indeterministic).
I think I’ve also shown that it’s more reasonable to conclude that humans do make free choices, than that they do not.
What you are trying to justify is called libertarian free will. There is no evidence whatsoever that libertarian free will is true. There is no evidence that anything happens anywhere except according to chance and necessity. That doesn't mean it doesn't - it just means we do not know. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Certainty is never absolute I'm sending that one to snorg tees. http://www.snorgtees.com/
William J Murray
kairosfocus @310. I like your clarification. Thank you. StephenB
Chance @ 308, thank you for commenting. I am pleased to know that my examples resonate with you. StephenB
RDF: That makes at least three self evident truths you need to face. KF kairosfocus
SB: I would only add as a clarification that finite wholes and parts are implied in the discussion; the usual case. KF kairosfocus
RDF:
2) Certainty is never absolute simply because epistemology is not solved. This is not controversial; it simply means that we can always question anything. That does NOT mean that we can’t be certain of things, it only means that certainty is a continuum rather than absolute.
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure of that, or only relatively sure? (In short, self referential incoherence.) I would suggest to you that the same things you keep on refusing to examine on excuses, would help you fix a lot of basic blunders. Royce's error exists is actually undeniably and absolutely true. Not just by universal consensus -- starting with the first math class with all those red X's -- but by the implications of attempted denial. To try to deny in the context where we have both E and NOT-E, implies instantiation of E. Self-evident truth, certain, absolutely certain knowledge, and a case where our experience of the world and our perceptions speak truly. Schemes of thought that deny such therefore are in error. But at the same time, E means we must be aware of our limits. yes, many kinds of knowledge claim are weak form: warranted, credibly true. Not all, some are plain out justified and true beliefs. IT would help if you were to drop excuses or accusations and simply read. Not that at this stage, on sad track record, I expect you to be willing to climb down off that high horse. KF kairosfocus
Stephen @307,
"With respect to the Law of Causality, I am absolutely certain that an effect cannot contain more than its cause. To be more precise, I am absolutely certain that you cannot get a two by four piece of wood from a splinter. With respect to the Law that the whole can never be less than any one of its constituent parts, I am absolutely certain that the city of Detroit can never have more people than the entire state of Michigan. I have absolute 100% ontological certitude on these matters."
Thanks, that was helpful to me with regard to self-evident truths. Chance Ratcliff
RDFish
No phobia here, thanks. You? What are you afraid of?
If you are not afraid of a First Cause, then you should not bristle when the subject is broached in a relevant context.
So can we agree that you can reconcile libertarianism with causality, but only in a theological framework? I’m happy to agree with that.
A first cause is not a theological concept, it is a philosophical concept. However, I am not surprised that you would, once again, try to obfuscate the matter with word manipulation. "Who or what, in your judgment, is the cause of your actions?"
I am. I choose my actions and initiate them, and I think this is just an obvious fact. The critical question is, What causes me to choose my actions? Your answer is nothing, and my answer is the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.
If your experiences are the cause of you exercising you volitional capacities, then you are not the cause, your experiences are. If you are simply the effect of your experiences, then you cannot be the ultimate cause of your actions. Either your experiences are driving the train or you are driving the train. Which is it?
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I think I’ve said this about 100 times so far.
Yes, but you have provided no rational justification given your view that the sum total of your experiences is driving the process. The question is, how can you change the direction of the sum total your experiences if your experiences are the cause of you and your actions?
Please don’t pretend I’m stupid, it’s annoying.
Well, being stupid is not exactly the same thing as being irrational. As a general rule, people do not have too much say about their intelligence. They either have the gift or they don't. Rationality is a choice. You have chosen to be irrational by denying reason's rules.
2) Certainty is never absolute simply because epistemology is not solved. This is not controversial;
Does this mean that, contrary to your earlier claim that you are certain about the Law of Non-Contradiction, you are now going to withhold judgment on the matter until the problem of epistemology is solved?
it simply means that we can always question anything.> That does NOT mean that we can’t be certain of things, it only means that certainty is a continuum rather than absolute. We can say that there are things that are so certain that all reasonable people ought to believe them.
That is exactly what I have been telling you for two weeks and a point that you have been resisting mightily. The Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are so certain that no reasonable person would refuse to accept them. The findings of science are only relatively certain. They might be refuted tomorrow. All empirical knowledge is like that. Most things are like that. Self-evident truths ARE NOT LIKE THAT.
3) There is nothing contradictory about trying to assess how certain one is about something. We do it all the time.
OF course. So do I.
I am very certain about how many moons orbit Mars, and yet I’m positive that I have no idea where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. And there is nothing contradictory about me assessing your certainty, either.
The problem is that you do not place the right items at the high end of the continuum. The Rules of right reason belong at the top. The number of moons that orbit a planet ranks high, but not at the very top. That information is provisional, and changeable, the rules of right reason are not.
I am very certain that you don’t know any of these things: 1) If Julius Caesar was alergic to cillantro 2) How many quarters I currently have in my pockets 3) Angelina Jolie’s social security number
I am certain that I don't know them either. Give your strawman a vacation.
And I am equally convinced that you don’t know why there is something rather than nothing, or if mental causality is ontologically distinct, or any of several other Big Questions.
Those examples are irrelevant to the Rules of right reason. With respect to the Law of Causality, I am absolutely certain that an effect cannot contain more than its cause. To be more precise, I am absolutely certain that you cannot get a two by four piece of wood from a splinter. With respect to the Law that the whole can never be less than any one of its constituent parts, I am absolutely certain that the city of Detroit can never have more people than the entire state of Michigan. I have absolute 100% ontological certitude on these matters. If you would be honest with yourself and with me, you would admit that you also have that same degree of certainty on these self-evident truths. If you cannot bring yourself to that point, then you are not a rational person.
I’m very certain about is that we have no good reason to think we understand any of these ancient conundrums.
And I am very certain that I just refuted you with two self-evident truths that cannot be rationally disavowed. StephenB
RDFish @305,
"The internal states are only set deterministically if the universe is deterministic. Otherwise, the internal states can be changed non-deterministically."
Let me try and get to the crux of the issue, as I see it. boolean X = getX(); if (X) {   print("True"); } else {   print("False"); } The above program is deterministic. That which occurs does so by necessity. This is analogous to other necessity conditions, such as the temperature at which water begins to freeze. If the sufficient temperature condition occurs, then the water will freeze. If X is true, "True" will be output. If X is not true, "False" will be output. This happens by necessity, like water freezing. However if getX() has a nondeterministic source, then the pattern of true and false outputs will be nondeterministic. This doesn't change the fact that the program itself is deterministic. Inputs are mapped to outputs deterministically. Once the program is written and compiled, it will behave exactly the same way, outputting "True" if X is true and "False" otherwise. So I assert that programs which do not incorporate true random number generation are deterministic. I don't think this is controversial. The question now shifts to whether any nondeterministic inputs exist. For the sake of argument, and to avoid any possible question begging, we should exclude biological phenomena. That being the case, do any nondeterministic events exist from the big bang onward? Is there anything in the laws of physics that is truly nondeterministic? Perhaps. Quantum events may be truly random. So at best we can have nondeterministic input which is not "free" as per my definition. Since no "free" inputs exist, no "choice" that a computer makes can be free. Given all this, the inputs can be no more than the product of chance and necessity; and since the input is filtered through the program, which is itself deterministic, the output can be no more than the product of chance and necessity. Here are the definitions again: choice: a selection among multiple possibilities determined: necessary — neither impossible nor contingent free: not determined nor random
I suspect you might take issue with those, but I thought I’d take a stab at it anyway.
I think they’re perfectly clear.
Thank you, that's appreciated.
You need nondeterministic state switching in order to produce nondeterministic output.
No, you don’t.
I think this was addressed above. The variable X represents state. If it's input is deterministic, so is the program's output.
In addition, the coin sorter does have an internal state, it’s just constant, and so unarguably deterministic.
My definition says “internal states” (plural), but to clear up any confusion, I could add that unchanging structure does not constitute “states”.
But why bother? A coin sorter has a single, constant state. This is analogous to the following program: constant boolean X = True; print(X); Constant state is still state.
"1) humans, coin sorters, and computers make choices 2) coin sorters and computers make determined choices 3) nobody knows if there is any such a thing as a free choice (it can’t be demonstrated to exist)"
OK I think this is progress at least. And it may be that we won't resolve #3, at least with apodictic certainty. However we may have some warrant to reasonably infer that humans make free choices. I'll revisit this.
"To be clear, you should use something like “conscious mind” instead of “agency”."
I think the term agency is acceptable, philosophical terminology. According to Wikipedia, "In philosophy and sociology, agency is the capacity of an agent (a person or other entity, human or any living being in general, or soul-consciousness in religion) to act in a world."
"How you intend to support your claim that mental causes are neither random nor determined? It’s just not possible."
I think this is an important point. I agree that it may not be possible to prove that mental causes are free. However I think it can be supported by the evidence. More later.
Run program X with input Y. Observe output. Run program X again with input Y. Observe output. If the program is deterministic, the output for both runs will be the same. (Pseudorandom number generator notwithstanding.)
Do you think we reboot humans each time they make a choice???? Hello???? Human beings accumulate experience all through their lives – they don’t reset their internal state to some initial condition! Well, neither does my computer program – it just keeps running, and keeps giving different outputs when given the same input. Oh – and it’s only a few lines of code :)
I think you're failing to connect the dots here. My example was for computer programs. If a computer program runs from state zero on the same input, it will produce the same output. Never mind humans for a moment. Your program is still deterministic on this condition, which is the only criteria available for evaluation. If the input is constant, so will the output be, from the starting state. Each time your program is run on the same input, it will produce the same output.
If we should switch gears and talk about your “running forever” technicality, then it should be made clear that you’re taking a single stream of input continuously, and not a single stream of input multiple times from an initial state. You’re program needs to halt and restart in order to test for determinism. I supplied the definitions, but wiggle out of this if you can.
What????? Do we have to halt human beings and restart them in order to test for determinism?
Again I think you're missing the point. Never mind humans for a moment. The point has been made that your program is deterministic, since its output will be the same when executed multiple times from state zero on constant input. My point about humans was exactly this: they cannot be rebooted to an initial starting state, so we cannot use this same criteria for evaluating whether human behavior is deterministic. For this reason alone we cannot evaluate computer systems on the same basis that we evaluate human behavior.
"You said a deterministic program will always give the same output for the same input. You didn’t say anything about halting the program or restarting it!!!"
If you have another way to evaluate whether a program is deterministic, please lay it out plainly. If your program has the same output on identical input, from the initial starting state, then it is deterministic.
we cannot equate a computer program with human behavior because they are fundamentally incomparable.
They are radically different and incommensurable for sure. Whether there is an ontological distinction, nobody knows.
No, we can't be absolutely certain about it, just as we cannot be absolutely certain that the sun will rise tomorrow as it always has, but I think it's more reasonable than the alternative.
Here’s the part you left out: Falsification: There exists an X such that X is a computer and X is the verifiable result of chance and necessity.
I don’t get it. You are saying that if the computer is caused by chance and necessity, then it can’t be caused by a human being. Again, you are simply assuming that human beings have some special kind of power that is not random and not determined. If X results from chance and necessity, that does not falsify the claim that it is the product of agency unless you are assuming your conclusion.
Not exactly, although the confusion is understandable. I had to think through it again carefully, but I don't think there's a logical problem. Falsifying the premise falsifies the universal claim, that any instance of a computer implies agency. To find a computer that was not the result of a deliberate intelligent act would just mean that not all computers are produced by agents; it would not mean that no computer was. But closer to the point, here's your objection: "Again, you are simply assuming that human beings have some special kind of power that is not random and not determined." I'm certainly concluding that humans have a special kind of power. I'm not just assuming it. I think that this inference is warranted by observation -- by uniform and repeated experience. We have numerous instances of technology being produced by humans, and no instances of technology being produced by chance and necessity. This constitutes a reliable warrant that humans can cause technology, and that material processes cannot. This warrant can be nullified by either a) demonstrating that chance and necessity can produce technology; or b) demonstrating that chance and necessity can produce humans. Again, I cannot prove this to be so, but it is supported by direct observation -- by evidence taken in the context of uniform and repeated experience. That being the case, we have warrant to presume that humans can do things which material processes cannot. All that's needed to nullify the warrant is evidence to the contrary.
Again, this is not impossible, it’s just not in evidence, nor is any principle which could establish the falsification. This constitutes the warrant: 100% of cases in evidence are verifiable products of intentional design. 0.0% of cases are available to call it into question.
No, you really are missing the point. You are assuming that human beings are “agents” and that when “agents” do things they operate by means that are neither random nor determined. But that is just your assumption – nobody knows if that is true or not. In other words, nobody knows if chance, necessity, and agency are three different things. It could be that agency is nothing but chance and necessity at work.
When "agents" do things that cannot be accounted for by chance and necessity, they are performing a unique causal action. All that is needed to refute this warrant is to produce evidence to the contrary. Recall my definition of free: neither determined nor random. This equates to: neither necessity nor chance. If I have established warrant that humans can do things that neither chance nor necessity can accomplish, then by implication we have warrant to reasonably conclude that humans make free choices. Remember, this isn't formal proof, it's evidentiary proof. In other words, I think it constitutes sufficient evidence. I'm certain that our disagreement will not end there. But I think I have shown that by my definition of free, computers do not make free choices. I think I've also shown that it's more reasonable to conclude that humans do make free choices, than that they do not. My apologies for the length of this post. I wanted to try and be thorough and address most of your major objections. Chance Ratcliff
Hi Chance,
However your “free choice” definition [ making a choice based on internal states] necessitates determinism, since the entity’s internal state will determine the output predictably and reliably.
The internal states are only set deterministically if the universe is deterministic. Otherwise, the internal states can be changed non-deterministically.
You need nondeterministic state switching in order to produce nondeterministic output.
No, you don't.
In addition, the coin sorter does have an internal state, it’s just constant, and so unarguably deterministic.
My definition says "internal states" (plural), but to clear up any confusion, I could add that unchanging structure does not constitute "states".
Another coin sorter with a different internal state will produce different, but constant, output. In other words, it seems that coin sorters can make free choices by your definition.
No, each sorter lacks internal states, so it makes choices but not freely.
In the interest of fair engagement, let me try some variations to your definitions: choice: a selection among multiple possibilities determined: necessary — neither impossible nor contingent free: not determined nor random
Ok, those are fine.
I suspect you might take issue with those, but I thought I’d take a stab at it anyway.
I think they're perfectly clear.
The above definitions allow nondeterministic causes that are not random, which is something I found lacking in your definitions. I suspect that your issue would be that it begs the question to call human choices “free”, but that can be resolved by attributing no such qualifier to “choices”. Now the term choice can be qualified as either determined or free.
Yes, exactly. You're not begging any questions. Using your definitions, I would say this: 1) humans, coin sorters, and computers make choices 2) coin sorters and computers make determined choices 3) nobody knows if there is any such a thing as a free choice (it can't be demonstrated to exist)
RDF: “You are assuming without warrant that “agency” refers to something beyond chance and necessity.” CR: I supplied the warrant.
You have never done any such thing of course. What are you talking about? I'm saying that we can observe physical cause and effect, but we cannot observe mental cause and effect. How you intend to support your claim that mental causes are neither random nor determined? It's just not possible.
What is your warrant that they do not?
I never claimed to have evidence that mental cause does not exist. I don't know whether it does or not.
On what evidentiary grounds can we infer that chance and necessity beget agency, or that agency is reducible to such?
To be clear, you should use something like "conscious mind" instead of "agency". Anyway, we do not have evidentiary grounds to infer that conscious minds are reducible to chance and necessity. We don't know if they are or not.
By the way, there’s nothing spooky about the term agency. You can take it for a synonym for human if you so choose.
Actually the word really is pretty loaded with connotation. I suggest using "human" for "agent", and "conscious mind" for "agency".
Well at least we know that the pronouncement “all pronouncements are uncertain” is uncertain.
I never said anything like that, so this is just dopey.
If you have no halting condition, then you can’t be reading the “same input” unless you’re just iterating over identical values. This is not the same thing.
Of course it is exactly the same thing. Keep entering the same value ("4") and observe that the output will be different each time.
Run program X with input Y. Observe output. Run program X again with input Y. Observe output. If the program is deterministic, the output for both runs will be the same. (Pseudorandom number generator notwithstanding.)
Do you think we reboot humans each time they make a choice???? Hello???? Human beings accumulate experience all through their lives - they don't reset their internal state to some initial condition! Well, neither does my computer program - it just keeps running, and keeps giving different outputs when given the same input. Oh - and it's only a few lines of code :-)
If we should switch gears and talk about your “running forever” technicality, then it should be made clear that you’re taking a single stream of input continuously, and not a single stream of input multiple times from an initial state. You’re program needs to halt and restart in order to test for determinism. I supplied the definitions, but wiggle out of this if you can.
What????? Do we have to halt human beings and restart them in order to test for determinism? You said a deterministic program will always give the same output for the same input. You didn't say anything about halting the program or restarting it!!!
we cannot equate a computer program with human behavior because they are fundamentally incomparable.
They are radically different and incommensurable for sure. Whether there is an ontological distinction, nobody knows.
If intelligent agents can be begotten by chance and necessity, or if their unique effects can be accounted for by chance and necessity, then we can credit chance and necessity with the whole shebang. It’s a twofer.
Ah - ok I understand.
Premise: For all X, if X is a computer, then X is the product of agency. RDF: You are assuming without warrant that “agency” refers to something beyond chance and necessity. No, I’m proposing that “agency” can produce computers, period. This is unassailable fact.
Ah, ok - you mean (per your comment above) that human beings can produce computers - yes, quite right, we can.
Here’s the part you left out: Falsification: There exists an X such that X is a computer and X is the verifiable result of chance and necessity.
I don't get it. You are saying that if the computer is caused by chance and necessity, then it can't be caused by a human being. Again, you are simply assuming that human beings have some special kind of power that is not random and not determined. If X results from chance and necessity, that does not falsify the claim that it is the product of agency unless you are assuming your conclusion.
Again, this is not impossible, it’s just not in evidence, nor is any principle which could establish the falsification. This constitutes the warrant: 100% of cases in evidence are verifiable products of intentional design. 0.0% of cases are available to call it into question.
No, you really are missing the point. You are assuming that human beings are "agents" and that when "agents" do things they operate by means that are neither random nor determined. But that is just your assumption - nobody knows if that is true or not. In other words, nobody knows if chance, necessity, and agency are three different things. It could be that agency is nothing but chance and necessity at work. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi StephenB,
Once a philosophical discussion about causality is on the table, a First Cause cannot be avoided. It is always relevant to and necessary for the topic. If you have a phobia about the First Cause, then you might be more at peace by avoiding discussions of causality altogether.
No phobia here, thanks. You? What are you afraid of? Anyway, philosophical discussions of causality are carried out all the time with no reference to a First Cause! There is a sizable scientific literature surrounding experiments in free will, for example, and none of it refers to a First Cause at all. So can we agree that you can reconcile libertarianism with causality, but only in a theological framework? I'm happy to agree with that.
Who or what, in your judgment, is the cause of your actions?
I am. I choose my actions and initiate them, and I think this is just an obvious fact. The critical question is, What causes me to choose my actions? Your answer is nothing, and my answer is the totality of my experiences acting upon my inherent characteristics.
Why should people be held accountable for their actions if they are not the cause of those actions?
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I think I've said this about 100 times so far.
RDF: You mischaracterize my position completely. SB: How could I mischaracterize your position? You have no position (except the position that you should have no position).
I am certain regarding the fact that the Big Questions that I've enumerated have no certain answers. That isn't that hard to understand, but you really want to pretend that I'm saying nobody can be certain about anything or something stupid like that. Please don't pretend I'm stupid, it's annoying.
RDF: But nobody ought to be certain about why there is something rather than nothing, nor how the universe came to exist, nor how life came to exist on Earth, nor how brains are related to conscious minds, nor if mental causality is ontologically distinct, and so on. SB: Are you certain about that?
Yes I am. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Please try and concentrate; here is what I am saying: 1) There are innumerable things about which we can be certain 2) Certainty is never absolute simply because epistemology is not solved. This is not controversial; it simply means that we can always question anything. That does NOT mean that we can't be certain of things, it only means that certainty is a continuum rather than absolute. We can say that there are things that are so certain that all reasonable people ought to believe them. 3) There is nothing contradictory about trying to assess how certain one is about something. We do it all the time. I am very certain about how many moons orbit Mars, and yet I'm positive that I have no idea where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. And there is nothing contradictory about me assessing your certainty, either. I am very certain that you don't know any of these things: 1) If Julius Caesar was alergic to cillantro 2) How many quarters I currently have in my pockets 3) Angelina Jolie's social security number And I am equally convinced that you don't know why there is something rather than nothing, or if mental causality is ontologically distinct, or any of several other Big Questions. Sorry, but your "You can't be certain that I'm not certain" gimmick is just nonsense. I can be very certain of any number of things, just as you can, and one of the things I'm very certain about is that we have no good reason to think we understand any of these ancient conundrums. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: No. I think there are a set of Big Question that have been pondered and debated by the most intelligent human beings that have ever lived over thousands of years, without ever producing anything remotely resembling a consensus. I object to people who believe that whatever they happen to think might be the answers to these question are obviously and clearly and objectively correct, and anyone who disagrees must be hiding from the truth or irrational or stupid or lying. PHIN: But you wouldn’t include the Law of Non-contradiction in those Big Questions, because it is obviously and clearly and objectively correct, correct?
That's right. I've never known anyone to doubt it.
And the same would hold true for the basic Laws of Reason, correct?
Formal logic and mathematics, right.
And it would also hold true for the notion that every effect has a cause, correct?
Let's be careful with our vocabulary: As far as I'm concerned, an effect has a cause by definition. But I do not think that it is clear that every event - everything that happens - has a cause, because causality in quantum physics seems pretty controversial.
Maybe you could clarify exactly what Big Questions you are talking about.
Again, these are questions that have been debated by philsophers for millenia, including -Why is there something instead of nothing? -What is the relationship between mind and body? -How did the universe begin and why does it have the characteristics it does? -How did life come to exist in the universe?
And perhaps more to the point, why does the following not qualify as a Big Question? Is it possible for someone to be obviously and clearly and objectively correct about the Big Questions?
Nope, sorry. I think it is patently obvious that our beliefs about these questions are nowhere near as well justified as the huge body of well-established knowledge that we have tested and confirmed by consensus that spans cultures and ideologies. No reasonable person doubts the LNC. No reasonable person doubts that the Earth orbits the Sun, or the germ theory of disease, or the Pythagorean theorem, or... But huge numbers of reasonable people doubt that the God of Abraham created the Universe in six days, and huge numbers of reasonable people doubt that the Multiverse successfully explains fine-tuning.
RDF: When you define the word such that your idea of volition is built into the definition, any further discussion of volition becomes hopelessly confused. PHIN: I get this. However, if the meaning of volition is at issue, it isn’t question begging to explore and discover how one’s definitions differ.
Defining "choice" as something that is not determined by prior cause and then concluding that human choice is free is like defining "movie star" as "popular film actor with blond hair" and then concluding that all movie stars are blond. Here are the definitions I propose, as I said to Chance: choice: selecting among multiple possibilities free choice: making a choice based on internal states libertarian freedom: the ability to act without antecedent cause; being an uncaused cause I am not wed to these particular definitions, and again there is no such thing as a definition that is right or wrong. However, if you'd like to actually discuss free will, you'll need definitions that do not assume your answer in the definition.
[T]he key point where I think this line of reasoning seems to go astray lies in its faulty understanding of the law of causality, which does not state that “everything needs a cause” but only that “every finite (or contingent) thing needs a cause.” Another way of saying it is that everything does not need a cause, but only every effect needs a cause. Or this: The Law of Cause and Effect states that every material effect must have an adequate antecedent or simultaneous cause.
Yes, this is how theologians (at least the Christian ones I've seen) phrase it, but as I've said this is true merely by definition: What the word "effect" means is something that follows from a cause.
Even Merriam-Webster agrees that the Law of Causation only claims: [E]very change in nature is produced by some cause (emphasis mine)
Yes, this is how I interpret the LoC. What is a "change in nature" if not an event? Instead of arguing over definitions, here is what I have been arguing vis-a-vis free will and causality, as clear as I can make it: Either everything that happens is caused, or some things happen without any cause at all - they just happen sponaneously. Libertarian free will holds that something can happen (namely, a human being can choose to do something) without any cause at all. That's all - you can play around with definitions all you'd like, but in the end libertarianism posits that some things can happen without being caused to happen.
What I find interesting, however, is that you seem perfectly content with your ignorance here while at the same time demanding answers as to how the immaterial could cause things to happen in the material world.
Huh???? Yes I am perfectly content with my ignorance regarding these Big Questions, because I believe admitting ignorance is the most reasonable position in these matters. If you argue for particular answers to these questions, of course I challenge your reasoning, since I think we have no good reasons to believe in any particular answer. I'm not "demanding" you answer, but obviously I'm going to question why you think you can defend your position, right?
To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton, how is it that you know enough about what you don’t know to know that no one else could possibly know it?
Precisely how many protons are in Alpha Centauri? Guess what? I'm sure I don't know, and I'm sure you don't know either! Poor Mr. Chesterton didn't think that one through very well, did he?
It is your certainty that I find, well, amusing. Especially given that your main point in this thread seems to be to question certainty, and your main strategy seems to be to rely on it utterly.
Glad you're amused, but I think it arises from your own persistent confusion. I've said over and over again that I think we are certain about all sorts of things. I have never said anything that challenges the existence of knowledge (justified true belief). I have been extremely clear in saying that there are some Big Questions (and I've listed them repeatedly) that we have no good reason to believe we've answered, and yes, I feel very certain about that. You really wish there was some logical error there, like that my certainty undermined my own conclusion. It's just not the case. In fact, I'm certain that you don't know all sorts of things: 1) If Julius Caesar was alergic to cillantro 2) How many quarters I currently have in my pockets 3) Angelina Jolie's social security number Now, how is it that I can be so sure you don't know these things? How can I possibly be certain of your uncertainty regarding these matters? Isn't that a logical contradiction or something? Uh, no. I'm just very, very certain that you don't know these things. And I'm certain that you don't know the answers to the Big Questions too. Cheers, RDFish RDFish
scordova, All very well stated and supported - thank you! RDFish
F/N 2: This is based on an error:
We can make pronouncements like “Everything has a cause” but that is only a faith statement, it is not formally provable and it can lead to Godelian like incompleteness problems, i.e.:
everything has a cause, therefore there was an uncaused First Cause
This seems like an extremly naive assertion given what we know today about various logical paradoxes. This seems like a naive expression at best, and self-contradictory at worst.
No one seriously argues that everything has a cause, that is self refuting and a misrepresentation. One, often exploited by Dawkins et al. What is argued is that: that which BEGINS TO EXIST, MAY CEASE FROM BEING, OR THE LIKE, has a cause. That is, that which depends on enabling factors, plainly is causally linked, it is second or more, not first. A first cause in the relevant sense would be a necessary being, which was discussed in outline above. It is discussed in more details in context here on. KF kairosfocus
F/N: here is Plato on the subject, in The Laws, BK X: ________ >> Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> _________ I t5rust this helps. KF kairosfocus
SC: The issue of first cause does not arise per pulled out of thin air assumption, but per an observation of chains of cause and related contingency. This may be multiplied by an observation on the problem of traversing an infinite chain in succession to reach here, but the question on that side is not necessary, as the whole chain itself needs a support. [Think how one of those line of dominoes exercises requires a handy supportive floor, as an instructive analogy.] In brief summary, a credibly contingent cosmos requires a cause and a mechanical chain of cause-effect bonds cries out for a beginning cause. In that wider context, as is commonly realised, our observed cosmos credibly had a beginning. A multiverse with variable parameters, laws etc is even more radically contingent. That is, our experienced universe is credibly contingent. For, that which begins is dependent on enabling causal factors [think, how a match flame depends on heat, fuel, chain reaction and oxidiser], and is contingent. This brings up the issue highlighted much higher in this thread, that there is a credible class of beings that is not so constrained by enabling factors: necessary beings. Serious candidates to be such -- flying spaghetti monsters being composite entities are not serious, will be either impossible or possible. If impossible, that is because required attributes will stand in mutual contradiction, such as squareness and circularity so that a square circle is impossible. If possible, then there is no such block to existence. Such a being will exist in at least one possible world and as such beings are without beginning or cause, nor can they end, they will be in the actual world we experience as well. (Cf, S5 in logic.) As a simple example consider the truth in 2 + 3 = 5, a proposition. It has no beginning, depends on no physical antecedent to be so, and cannot cease. It is inherently mental and classically it is held to be eternally contemplated by an eternal mind. much more can be said, but at worldviews level which is where we are now, we are looking at overall explanatory constructs, not deductive proofs from axioms accepted by all. Factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power in a context of comparative difficulties provides a context in which one takes a responsible, reasonable view, or if you will, faith. Cf, discussion here on. KF kairosfocus
Ph: I see you are carrying on the good work of actually laying out facts and reasoning. Above, at 269, in light of a useful model by Derek Smith, I summarised a view on how we can have an embodied, minded agent, but decided not to give any particular model for influences beyond being informational and perceptual/sensory etc. The obvious answer is that of quantum level influences that bring up outcomes, joined to shared access to storage. There was a suggestion of microtubules as a viable site some years back, but I am not committed to that. You will observe that, after several times of pointing to such a model, predictably RDF has pointedly ignored it. Similarly, I see where, in the teeth of empirical evidence -- and his own experience of being an agent, and the observation on the difference of performance in creating FSCO/I between agency and what we can show through analysis -- per needles in haystacks and monkeys at keyboards -- that which blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can reasonably do, he still wants to say that the construct, agency is an "assumption." That speaks volumes. I also see how he continues to try to make out that a computer, driven by a deterministic sequence of instructions, executing say a case structure, is making a "choice." Sorry, a computer is just a label for a sophisticated programmable calculator that executes algorithms: blind, step by step sequences of machine actions shaped by a designer towards an end. In fact, that is how most modern serious calculators are built, as small computers. [In the old days, some were hard wired in gate logic etc.] The only genuine choices involved in computers, is in the design and programming involved. And that does not come from the computers. Indeed, where computers are self modifying, unless they are set up to crash, that is very carefully controlled by supervisory algorithms indeed. And, given GIGO, the quality of decision of computer behaviour is no better than the quality of decisions built in at the design and coding point. None of which is news. I must note that if we are simply robots, following programs, we cannot properly reason or responsibly decide we would just be executing algorithms dependent on specification of detailed step by step sequences. That brings up how rich human creativity is yet another sign of how we are not programmed. If that were not so, both art and rational discourse would be pointless, utterly predictable up to some blind stochastic distribution, and revealingly so. Here is a summary on the topic, again; by somebody who has rolled his own so to speak. (Which summary I predict he will either silently ignore yet again, or will find some excuse to run away from.) Of course, you may incorporate a genuinely random component in such a system, but all that does is it runs up against the FSCO/I limit. Agency is real as an experienced, observed factor in the world, one that has capabilities that are radically different from those of bland chance and/or mechanical necessity. Indeed the very act of composing a long post in English text is a manifestation of that difference;as such is a cap[ital instance of FSCO/I. This gets us back to the point that the design view is of fundamental importance and relevance in a current scientific worldview that is moving beyond scientism. Look, even Wiki on choice is illuminating:
Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one or more of them. While a choice can be made between imagined options ("what would I do if ...?"), often a cho