Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
Hi Phinehas,
1. RDF claims that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
Yes you are correct.
2. RDF agrees that whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions is a Big Question.
Of course: Epistemology in general is an unsolved question of central importance. Various philosophers (including of course Christian apologists) have attempted to build arguments for the existence of a god or gods based on our experience or self-evident logic, and likewise establish positions on the other Big Questions. I think it's clear that none of these has succeeded, and certainly none has gained anything of the sort of consensus agreement that has been achieved in other areas of human inquiry. We reach consensus on a vast variety of beliefs across cultural and ideological boundaries: Most people agree that atoms exist, and electromagnetic fields, and that bacteria and viruses exist and cause diseases, and that inherited traits are encoded in chromosomes, and that physical balance is coordinated in the cerebellum, and that the First World War occurred, and so on and so on. In contrast, philosophers and theologians have argued for millenia about questions such as "Why is there something rather than nothing?" and "What is the relationship between the body and the mind?" and "Are human actions determined in the same way other events are?" and so on, and there are just as many differing views now as their ever was, and nobody has any idea how to decide who is right.
3. RDF is apparently unaware of the incoherence of his own position.
My position is incoherent? Really? I could imagine that you disagree with my position, perhaps by trying to support one apologetic or another. But I don't think taking the position that nobody has successfully demonstrated the existence of the Christian God, or libertarian free will, or things like that is... incoherent! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 15, 2013
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RDF: My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling. Phin: And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question. RDF: Actually no, I think this is one of the things that great thinkers have indeed thought and written about extensively through the ages. RDF: I really don’t understand your point here.
1. RDF claims that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF agrees that whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions is a Big Question. 3. RDF is apparently unaware of the incoherence of his own position.Phinehas
June 15, 2013
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PS: As for "acausal universe" this needs to be examined in light of contingent/necessary being. That which begins is contingent and has one or more ON/OFF enabling factors. If a candidate contingent being is possible, a sufficient cluster of factors will trigger its beginning, and must enfold at least all of its ON/OFF enabling factors. This is the evident class of being of the observed cosmos, cf. evidence of a big bang. Now, what happens is that there is another class of possible being -- as repeatedly pointed out with implications and as usual ignored by RDF in his haste to king of the mountain knock over the strawman contests -- necessary beings. These are indeed without cause, have no beginning or end, and as atomic matter is contingent, are not made of such. The key fallacy in RDF's argument is he tries to suggest beings that have a beginning without cause, in light of ON/OFF factors. He will be unable to provide cases (quantum events don't count as they have ever so many enabling factors) and will not address the implications of a candidate possible or actual being that has no dependence on external factors, i.e. it would have to be a necessary being, as either it exists necessarily or else it is impossible. So, beings with beginnings will invariably turn out to depend on external enabling factors. Let us leave RDF with the challenge to give an example to the contrary, on good evidence; failing which we may comfortably dismiss the confident manner assertions as ill-informed at best. RDF's candidate is: ________, on evidence that: _____________ . (Prediction, he will be unable to successfully fill in cases in point and will ignore or play strawman tactic games and/or red herring games. Case in point of a contingent being: a lighted match flame. Case in point of a necessary being: the truthful proposition, 2 + 3 = 5. Both, as repeatedly presented and ignored by RDF. Case of an impossible candidate: a square circle, impossible as attributes stand in mutual contradiction. Further major candidate necessary being backed up by serious evidence (never mind ever so many dismissals -- they uniformly fail to show what they need to -- that God is IMPOSSIBLE; a serious candidate necessary being will either be impossible or actual, cf. S5 for some of why): God. It is commonly said that true propositions are eternally contemplated by God.)kairosfocus
June 15, 2013
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F/N 2: Yet another strawman set up and knocked over:
RDF: Your idea that something can “potentially exist” and then “receive existence” is incoherent. There is nothing that can have all of its properties except existence, and then be given existence. That is what is meant by treating existence as a predicate, and that is what I’m saying most philosophers recognize as being incoherent.
With all due respect, rubbish. Strawman tactic rubbish maintained in the teeth of a clear corrective discussion of cause and being given many times above. So also, willfully maintained misrepresentation. What is pivotal here is that we have possible and impossible candidate beings. Let's go back to the red ball on the table that RDF studiously refuses to discuss. This ball was made at some point and eventually put on the table. (Above, we discussed how a red cricket ball is made and linked a video.) So, let's label it A. A is actual. That means it was possible, and that possibility was actualised. Possible? Yes, a bright red cricket ball made from a cork core wrapped tightly with twine then covered with leather quarters (or at lesser standard, halves) stitched together with a special set of rings of stitches that plays such a part in its characteristics, is based on attributes and arrangements that are coherent, consistent with one another. (A baseball is of similar construction, and the decision to make the one rather than the other shows strongly how both are contingent. And BTW, it is commonly reported that while officially red and white cricket balls have the same construction apart from the dyes used, they apparently play and wear differently, maybe the changed chemical processing causes a difference. Subtle differences make a difference, i.e. a cricket ball is a fine tuned functionally specific and complex system.) By contrast, a square circle is based on a contradiction: attributes to be squarish contradict those to be circular. Such is an impossible being and cannot be actualised. This of course highlights how coherence in attributes is a necessary condition of potential being. Thence, of actual being when somehow the ingredients are mixed and the cake is baked, so to speak. Now, it is obvious that unless something is possible, it cannot be built. And therefore a candidate to be actualised as a thing, must be possible. This -- as pointed out and repeatedly ignored -- implies that coherence of attributes is a requisite of being an actual thing. The law of non-contradiction is inextricably entangled in possibility of -- much less actualised -- being. (RDF has spent much effort in trying to make us imagine this is not so and has repeatedly ignored this correction.) So, while RDF heaps rhetorical scorn on the notion of something that has its characteristics except existence then somehow gets that one last magic ingredient, we all know that to become real a suggested candidate for being must be possible. That holds for red cricket balls in a shop showcase in Davy Hill Montserrat sitting next to the new-fangled white balls, and it holds for universes too. What SB has pointed out repeatedly, only to see what he said twisted into a strawman that is set up and knocked over, is that our observed universe -- NB: estimated age typically dated as from a big bang some 13.7 BYA -- had to be possible in order to become actual, and that it is only once it was actualised that it would be there, complete with conservation laws such as those of momentum, angular momentum, electrical charge, mass-energy, etc. Moreover, on multiple lines of evidence that observed universe sits at a finely tuned, functionally specific complex operating point that is deeply isolated in what seems to be the space of possible sets of laws, parameters and brute givens. This fine tuning enables it to support the existence of C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital code based algorithms to carry out key life functions using precise molecular nanomachines. Life, such as we enjoy. All of which points strongly to purposeful design. It is eminently reasonable that it is only at the point where the cosmos comes into being that it is complete, including conservation laws. RDF, as pointed out repeatedly and ignored, is overlooking the lesson of Lord Russell's inductive turkey. It formed the generalisation that it would be fed at 9:00 am sharp every morning outside the Kitchen door, and so it confidently showed up on a very special day indeed: Christmas Eve. Chop. That is, a general pattern inferred inductively cannot ever forbid that there are special circumstances where there is a wider pattern in which the narrower one does not hold. Where, the beginning of the observed cosmos is as special a circumstance as one gets. This has been repeatedly pointed out to RDF, and just as repeatedly ignored by him in his haste to set up and knock over a strawman, then announce a rhetorical victory. Let us take due note. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2013
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F/N: Let's keep our eyes on the ball: grounding worldviews reasonably, which includes first principles of right reason -- all of which RDF (while playing a give with the right hand, distract attention, quietly take back with the left rhetorical game . . . ) has consistently sought to undermine because he does not like the connexion SB and I have made to grounding theism as an intellectually responsible worldview. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of “First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe”. SB: Again, I must point out that this statement is a flat out misrepresentation of the highest order. It’s as bad as it gets.
Here is what you said @574:
“There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it?”
In your explanation, you are saying that there were time-ordered events that happened before the universe was created! You said there was no law of conservation UNTIL God makes one! That means that FIRST there is no law of conservation, and THEN at some later point, God makes one. These words all imply TIME, which does not exist outside of spacetime. It is therefore no misrepresentation whatsoever (much less "of the highest order"!): You explain things by having the Creator perform time-ordered tasks outside of spacetime, which is incoherent. Take responsibility for your bad arguments, Stephen - they are not my fault.
RDF: I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”. SB: It was you who tied them together.
YES! It was me who tied them together indeed! Your view of "potential existence" is incoherent because it treats existence as a predicate, and that is indeed what I pointed that out to you.
So, clearly you are saying that someone cannot receive existence on the grounds that you and most philosophers believe believe that existence cannot be used as a predicate.
And yet again: Your idea that something can "potentially exist" and then "receive existence" is incoherent. There is nothing that can have all of its properties except existence, and then be given existence. That is what is meant by treating existence as a predicate, and that is what I'm saying most philosophers recognize as being incoherent.
I realize that it makes no sense since existence is a noun, but it is your objection not mine, and you did associate it with “most philosophers.” It was your justification for saying that something cannot receive existence. I didn’t create that tangled web. You did.
I have no idea what this means, sorry.
So, we are back to the beginning. Where are your citations from these philosophers who agree with you that something cannot receive existence on the grounds that existence “cannot be used as a predicate.”
I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”. This wouldn’t even be something a logician would weigh in on. For the eleventh time, it was I who claimed that your conception of a potentially existing object receiving existence was tantamount to treating existence as a predicate. I don’t ever remember any philosopher commenting on “potential existence” or “receiving existence”. Now, can you defend your argument that LNC -> LoC without trying to run away? No, you can't. You have never once addressed my argument against you - you just desperately try to throw up this strawman argument. My argument is very simple: THE LNC IS PERFECTLY COMPATIBLE WITH AN ENTIRELY ACAUSAL UNIVERSE. Where is your counter-argument? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 15, 2013
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RDF@682
I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can “receive existence”.
It was you who tied them together. SB: "Only the giver of existence is doing something. The receiver of existence is doing nothing. There really isn’t any question about what that means." RDF
You just want to go over and over this, but I’ve already agreed to disagree about it. You believe that existence can be consistently treated as a predicate, and I (and most philosophers) believe the opposite. Let’s move on.
So, clearly you are saying that someone cannot receive existence on the grounds that you and most philosophers believe believe that existence cannot be used as a predicate. I realize that it makes no sense since existence is a noun, but it is your objection not mine, and you did associate it with "most philosophers." It was your justification for saying that something cannot receive existence. I didn't create that tangled web. You did. So, we are back to the beginning. Where are your citations from these philosophers who agree with you that something cannot receive existence on the grounds that existence "cannot be used as a predicate."StephenB
June 14, 2013
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RDF:
Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of “First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe”.
Again, I must point out that this statement is a flat out misrepresentation of the highest order. It's as bad as it gets. StephenB @462
Well, I thought the answer was evident. The Creator creates the universe ex-nilio complete with the Law of conservation.
StephenB
June 14, 2013
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And the red herring chase continues.kairosfocus
June 14, 2013
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Hi Stephen, You are a glutton for punishment I see. Very well...
RDF: This makes no sense because if something doesn’t exist it can’t receive anything and it can’t have or not have anything. It can’t begin or end or do anything at all… because there is no “it”. You are referring to nothing as though it was already something. SB: Would you like for me to cite more examples?
Only if you'd like to for some reason. I found that argument of mine quite compelling, but you didn't seem to understand it, so we moved on to a simpler and more direct rebuttal of your argument (your argument was that the LNC logically implied the LoC).
You said more than once that it is illogical to say that someone can receive existence and you also claimed that most logicians would back you up. Now you want to call it a strawman.
I have quoted myself now many times. I said that the majority of logicians agreed that existence cannot be consistently treated as a predicate. The strawman you have built is that I believe the majority of logicians believe that nothing can "receive existence". This wouldn't even be something a logician would weigh in on. For the tenth time, it was I who claimed that your conception of a potentially existing object receiving existence was tantamount to treating existence as a predicate. I don't ever remember any philosopher commenting on "potential existence" or "receiving existence". If you don't understand what I just said, please re-read it, so we don't have to go through this yet again.
Concede that it is not illogical to refer to received existence
Concede???? I think the whole concept of "potential existence" and something "receiving existence" is utterly incoherent, and I have argued that many times.
...or produce your evidence that virtually all logicians hold the contrary position.
I've explained this too many times. Read this post again, and again if necessary, until you understand it. You won't even comment on the argument I gave you that ultimately demolished your claim (LNC->LoC)! You have lost this point like the others, Stephen, and it won't help for you to worry this strawman like a dog with a bone. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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RDF
As for logicians and “receiving existence” – for the third time, it’s a strawman: I said logicians believed that existence isn’t a property. You are holding on to this little strawman like it’s a life preserver, hoping to redeem yourself by finding one single thing – anything that I might have been wrong about. No such luck I’m afraid.
It's no strawman. It is RDF now trying to have it both ways. Here @372 is just one example of your ongoing theme: SB: An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. RDF
This makes no sense because if something doesn’t exist it can’t receive anything and it can’t have or not have anything. It can’t begin or end or do anything at all… because there is no “it”. You are referring to nothing as though it was already something.
Would you like for me to cite more examples? You said more than once that it is illogical to say that someone can receive existence and you also claimed that most logicians would back you up. Now you want to call it a strawman. Sorry, that doesn't work. You have two choices: Concede that it is not illogical to refer to received existence or produce your evidence that virtually all logicians hold the contrary position.StephenB
June 14, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
No that is not what I am asking. I am asking what you think.
I've told you what I think, but I'll tell you again: I think that nobody knows. Despite what you may say, that really is a valid opinion, and I think it is the most truthful. We know all sorts of things, but there are many things we don't know, and I'm just the sort of person who likes to keep that straight. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: No, you’re wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling. PHIN: But your perspective on this is only valid if there is no God or at least no Revelation of God, so asserting that “we humans have no way of telling,” only follows after making assumptions about that which you claim no one can have any knowledge.
Eh? Must I believe in space aliens in order to say nobody knows if there is life elsewhere in the universe?
In other words, unless someone can actually know something about God’s existence or non-existence or ability or inability to Reveal Himself to humans, you are choosing to believe that, “we humans have no way of telling,” purely as a faith statement.
Well, no, this is not a faith statement. We also have no way of telling if there are other universes, and no way of telling when a particular atom of uranium will decay. These are statements of fact, not faith: There are actually no means by which we can presently answer these questions.
You misunderstand me. I’m not welcoming you to my life of faith. I’m welcoming you to your own life of faith.
I understood just fine. I won't try to get you to "see the light" and give up your faith in God, and I'd expect you to respect my beliefs in the same way.
LOL! Well, you’ve certainly asserted that a difference exists (and lots of other things) with an exceptional amount of religious fervor!
Haha - I notice when religious people want to insult some belief like Darwinism, they like to call it a "religion" :-)
You keep talking about Big Questions and their uncertainty while at the same time displaying such certainty about the things you merely believe to be true.
Like what? There are all sorts of things I'm certain about of course - we all are certain of a virtually infinite number of things. The reason I call them Big Questions is because (1) they are central to our existence and (2) people have pondered them for millenia and (3) we don't know the answers.
One must suppose that whether or not religious beliefs are very different from beliefs about religion is a Little Question. Whether or not you should welcome someone to your own belief would be another Little Question.
I don't know what "little questions" are, but correct, these are not typically thought of as deep, traditional philosophical conundrums. Questions of our origins, mind/body ontology, and free will are of central existential import and are the stuff of the great works of philosophy. Questions about how to share your beliefs with others are not.
And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question.
Actually no, I think this is one of the things that great thinkers have indeed thought and written about extensively through the ages.
RDF: I’m not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions. PHIN: Right. You are just making assumptions about which questions are Big and which ones are Little, which, no doubt, “is a very different thing indeed.” I’m sure you are very certain of that!
Huh? Are you disagreeing with me about which questions have occupied the great philosophers in history? I really don't understand your point here. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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RDF No that is not what I am asking. I am asking what you think. I am writing this right before a poker tourney I am in so I must be brief but I don't want you taking up bandwidth for no reason. Hopefully I will be out of pocket for 5 or 6 hours Vividvividbleau
June 14, 2013
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No, you’re wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling.
But your perspective on this is only valid if there is no God or at least no Revelation of God, so asserting that "we humans have no way of telling," only follows after making assumptions about that which you claim no one can have any knowledge. In other words, unless someone can actually know something about God's existence or non-existence or ability or inability to Reveal Himself to humans, you are choosing to believe that, "we humans have no way of telling," purely as a faith statement.
Welcome to a life of faith!
You are welcome to your own life of faith certainly! In my view, I should not welcome you to my own beliefs, and you ought not welcome me to yours.
You misunderstand me. I'm not welcoming you to my life of faith. I'm welcoming you to your own life of faith.
I have no religious beliefs – I only have beliefs about religions, which is a very different thing indeed.
LOL! Well, you've certainly asserted that a difference exists (and lots of other things) with an exceptional amount of religious fervor! You keep talking about Big Questions and their uncertainty while at the same time displaying such certainty about the things you merely believe to be true. One must suppose that whether or not religious beliefs are very different from beliefs about religion is a Little Question. Whether or not you should welcome someone to your own belief would be another Little Question. And whether or not humans have any way of telling whether God exists must be yet another Little Question.
I’m not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions.
Right. You are just making assumptions about which questions are Big and which ones are Little, which, no doubt, "is a very different thing indeed." I'm sure you are very certain of that!Phinehas
June 14, 2013
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Onlookers: Notice the attempt on RDF's part to divert discussion into a king of the mountain, I won the debate and you lost nyah nyah nyah nyah game? Let's remember the tactics advocated by Alinsky in his rules for radicals:
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."
Straight out of the rule book for dirty tactics. meanwhile the substantial issue of the inextricable intertwining of the first principles of right reason in rationality, and the particular case of the link from non-contradiction to causality, is being dodged. That is deliberate, and it often works, if we allow such tacticians to get away with it. What we instead need to do here is to call RDF's attention tot he foundational role of such first principles in reasoning, and to point out the implications of playing rhetorical games around them. Above all, we must not allow ourselves to be distracted form laying a sound foundation for our own worldviews. Hence, I again draw attention here on, to what RDF has studiously tried to ignore, scant and deride from day one, then distract attention from. If we allow him to get away with that sort of poisonous distractor tactic, that is what would give him the real victory he seeks: to block consideration of that which would decisively undermine his agenda. So, let us investigate just what it is that is so dangerous to his agenda that he will spend almost any price to distract from it. KFkairosfocus
June 14, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
You cannot support this position no matter how emphatically you assert it (cf. GK Chesterton).
Yeah we've been here: I think Mr. Chesteron is pretty confused too.
If God created the universe, then God knows. Further, if God has the ability to reveal what He knows to humans, then they can know as well.
And if pigs had wings, they could fly. (I've always loved that saying). Anyway, I will reiterate to you: I honestly, truly believe that it is perfectly reasonable and likely quite healthy to have beliefs about God, the universe, and everything. I don't happen to - I'm just incapble of thinking that any one particular take on all this is true. I just argue that religious beliefs aren't knowledge. This doesn't mean they are false or wrong; it just means we can't ever reach any sort of consensus on them because there is no way of telling who might be right.
What you are claiming is only true if there is no God, and you continuously choose the perspective that there is not and then assume there can be nothing true outside of this assumption.
No, you're wrong about this. I do not choose the perspective that there is no God. My perspective is that whatever is true about these Big Questions, we humans have no way of telling.
You are only trapped by your own assumptions, which you can choose to set aside if you really want to.
You assume there is a God. Dawkins assumes there is not. You are both "trapped" by your own assumptions. Me - not so.
Welcome to a life of faith!
You are welcome to your own life of faith certainly! In my view, I should not welcome you to my own beliefs, and you ought not welcome me to yours. We each get to believe (or not believe) whatever we want about these Big Questions, but since there is no way of telling who is right, we should be polite and leave everyone else to their own personal beliefs.
RDF: I’m the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!! PHIN:And in the very act of doing so, making all kinds of assumptions as though you do!
I've noticed people here are wont to call out self-referential paradoxes... even when there are none. All reasoning relies on various assumptions (e.g. Kantain a priori categories like space and time), but beyond that I'm not making any particular assumptions about these Big Questions. I have no religious beliefs - I only have beliefs about religions, which is a very different thing indeed. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
RDF: Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows. VB:Fair enough you don’t know.
Thank you!!
Is it possible that there is not a reason for its popping into existence?
I guess you are asking if it is possible if the principle of sufficient reason is false. That seems like a very hard question. Let's look it up and see what other people say? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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Hi StephenB, Stephen you are beating a horse that ought to be mercifully laid to rest. You lost on every substantive point. Your main argument - that you could logically derive the LoC from the LNC - has been shown to be false. Even KF of all people doesn't believe it. As for logicians and "receiving existence" - for the third time, it's a strawman: I said logicians believed that existence isn't a property. You are holding on to this little strawman like it's a life preserver, hoping to redeem yourself by finding one single thing - anything that I might have been wrong about. No such luck I'm afraid. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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Ok, fine, I’ll prove you wrong on this one just like all the others. I will look up citations IF you promise to fully concede this debate when I find them. Deal?
Only on the condition that you respond to my clarification @656. "Just show that the majority of logicians hold that it is illogical for something to “receive” existence." That is my challenge. Nothing more. You either accept it or you do not.StephenB
June 14, 2013
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RDF
Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows.
Fair enough you don't know. Does this also mean that it is possible. Nothing (no existence, not anything that can be described) poof something? Is it possible that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? Vividvividbleau
June 14, 2013
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I’m the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!!
And in the very act of doing so, making all kinds of assumptions as though you do!Phinehas
June 14, 2013
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RDF:
Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows.
You cannot support this position no matter how emphatically you assert it (cf. GK Chesterton). If God created the universe, then God knows. Further, if God has the ability to reveal what He knows to humans, then they can know as well. Omnipotence and omniscience are game-changers. God is a game-changer. What you are claiming is only true if there is no God, and you continuously choose the perspective that there is not and then assume there can be nothing true outside of this assumption. You are only trapped by your own assumptions, which you can choose to set aside if you really want to. Welcome to a life of faith!Phinehas
June 14, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
C’mon RDF, describe this nothing to us.
I'm afraid you are deeply confused on this one. I'm the one who keeps insisting that we cannot describe or understand these things!! I'm the one who says nobody knows how the universe came to exist, that we can't imagine causality outside of spacetime, that we can't imagine "nothing", and so on. It is religious folks (like Stephen Hawking or Richard Dawkins or William Lane Craig or folks around here) who seem to think they have it all figured out, not me! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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And dreams! Love your explanation @661, Vivid. If you think about it, even "poof" is nonsensical when speaking of nothing. Poof implies an observer, and perhaps even a place. Nothing is one of those things that is completely nonsensical until something exists, in the same way that darkness is completely nonsensical until light exists. As such, it is indeed difficult to imagine how nothing could have preceded something, or how darkness could have preceded light. It is difficult to imagine how I AM did not precede it all. It is certainly beyond my ability to fathom. Do you suppose RDF's nothing that somehow has the wherewithal to result in something is a dark nothing? A light nothing? A grayish mauve nothing? C'mon RDF, describe this nothing to us.Phinehas
June 14, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
Admittedly for me nothing is a difficult concept to talk about since I cannot even concieve of nothing.
Neither can anyone else. There are certain concepts (Kant called them a priori) that our thinking depends on, and these include space and time. We cannot conceive of anything outside of space and time. I've tried to explain this here, for example, when Stephen has tried to explain things along the lines of "First God created mass/energy, and then He created the Law of Conservation and then He created the Universe". Clearly, this sort of reasoning presupposes time, but there is no time except within spacetime - the universe. In my view, we ought to recognize that these are things our minds are not capable of thinking about, rather than pretend we understand that a human-like agent (God) performed these tasks as though He existed in spacetime.
Nothing (no existence, not anything that can be described) poof something?
Nobody knows.
The second question should be easier to answer Does this mean that there is not a reason for its popping into existence? I know that logically it is your position that there need be no cause.
I said there were three logical possibilities for something that comes to exist: self-caused, other-caused, and non-caused. Stephen thought that by eliminating self-caused, he could prove that it was other-caused, but he was wrong.
And in one of your posts you thought I was conflating reason with cause or maybe it was the other way around, to lazy to go look for it. However it seems you think the two are different ie a reason need not mean cause. Anyway I am not sure why the above question is difficult to understand.
Nobody knows how the universe and its mass/energy came to exist. Was there a cause? Was there a reason? My position is that nobody knows. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 14, 2013
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blockquote>Nothing = non-being, in Aristotle’s words, what rocks dream of. Where of course, rocks have no dreams. At least there are rocks!!! Vividvividbleau
June 14, 2013
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I meant to write "Yes I have used that phrase often..."vividbleau
June 14, 2013
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what rocks dream of.
Yes I have often used that phrase often but I always attributed it to Jonathan Edwards.I'm sure he was familiar with Aristotle and got it from him. Vividvividbleau
June 14, 2013
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Hi Vivid: Nothing = non-being, in Aristotle's words, what rocks dream of. Where of course, rocks have no dreams. KFkairosfocus
June 14, 2013
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