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Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
Hi Phinehas,
RDF: Computers lack the intersubjective moral sense that I believe is required for an agent to be morally responsible. PHIN: So, as soon as someone writes that particular piece of software for computers, they will be morally responsible? Even though they are still only taking input, processing it, and producing output, in complete accordance with programming for which they are not responsible?
My point was that no computer can be morally responsible for anything, because that which gives us moral accountability is absent from computers. While both humans and computers can make free choices, computers lack the human concept of morality. Here is how I put it to StephenB:
The way I put this is that moral law is not objectively true or false, but rather it is intersubjectively true or false. Intersubjectivity doesn’t just mean that everybody makes up their own view; it refers to shared meaning and reasoning among all people that derive from our shared nature.
Obviously people sometimes disagree about morality - even devout Christians can disagree on moral issues! But computers inherently have no intersubjective sense of morality, and thus cannot be considered moral agents. Now, let's say I write a program to make a robot go and kill somebody. Obviously I am responsible for that premeditated murder. But let's say I build a robot that is sophisticated enough to learn, reason, and make plans, and this robot autonomously decides to kill somebody. In this case I would say I would be guilty of negligent homicide or manslaughter, since while I didn't choose to kill the person, I shouldn't have let such a dangerous machine loose.
How can you be morally responsible for anything that ultimately originates outside of you?
First, even a determinist doesn't deny that we are born with inherent characteristics, so it's not the case that our acts originate outside of us. Our acts result from a combination of everything we are and everything we experience.
(I’m not sure to what questions you are referring, so please feel free to list any you feel are outstanding.)
I was thinking of your definition of the word "choose" Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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RDFish said:
As I quoted from several sources, the LoC says that no events can be uncaused, or that everything that happens must be caused.
2) I understand the Law of Causation to require that all events by fully determined by antecedent cause. So you do not actually believe in the Law of Causation at all? Or you think that the Law of Causation means something else besides what I’ve said? Again, KF here just linked to explanations of these rules of reason, and here is how that source described the Law of Causation: There is no effect without a cause.
. There is absolutely nothing in that definition that prevents a causeless cause. The principle doesn't say that all causes have a cause; it doesn't say that all causes are effects; it only says that all effects have a determining cause. The principle of causation is not violated by the existence of a causeless cause.
So you are truncating the causal chain simply by positing something inside a human being that can cause things to happen without any antecedent cause, which clearly violates the LoC.
No, it doesn't. IF humans possess the causeless cause agency of free will, they can cause effects without violating the principle of causation, which says all effects have a cause. Free will is not taken to be an "effect" of anything else. And if, as you imply, that "free will" is an arbitrary "truncating" of the causal chain, then if you do not "truncate" it there, where would you "truncate it", and what, ultimately, is the cause of any choice? How far back must you trace the sequence of causation? Before, you stepped the causal chain back from will to motive, but is that not also "truncating" the causal chain at an arbitrary point? This is why we posit that humans have libertarian free will, and posit a first cause, or causeless cause: to escape infinite regress and to provide necessary moral responsibility. Under your argument, there is no more reason to stop at "motive" in our backtracking of cause than there is anywhere else. Under my argument, the individual is necessarily responsible - which is how we must act in every day life anyway.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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Phin: Nor do I hold computers responsible for their actions.
RDF: I agree. Computers lack the intersubjective moral sense that I believe is required for an agent to be morally responsible.
So, as soon as someone writes that particular piece of software for computers, they will be morally responsible? Even though they are still only taking input, processing it, and producing output, in complete accordance with programming for which they are not responsible? How can you be morally responsible for anything that ultimately originates outside of you? (I'm not sure to what questions you are referring, so please feel free to list any you feel are outstanding.)Phinehas
May 22, 2013
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Hi Chance,
But the question still remains. In what circumstance would coercion actually remove free choice between alternatives?
Right - I'd say there are only very weird, sci-fi-movie type circumstances where there is absolutely no choice at all, involving the overtaking of neural or muscular control of someone so that even if they attempt to perform X they end up performing Y instead. To a practical approximation, then, all of our choices are free in this sense. Here's a summary of my view on freedom: "free" in terms of being able to select among choices: yes we are, along with computers and amoebas and dogs, but not rocks or rivers "free" meaning not being forced: yes, our choices are virtually always free in this sense "free" in the sense that whatever causes our actions violates physical causality: I don't know, but I don't see a reason to think so, and I don't think we need to posit this to make sense of our behavior, or our meaning, or our moral responsibilities
Yes, I’m restating why trying to define “human” without addressing the fundamental ontology of personhood is rather pointless when determining issues of moral responsibility and free will.
More summarizing of my position: "choice": a selection from amongst possibilities that is due to factors internal to the choosing entity "free will": the ability to make choices that are free (see above) "person" or "human": a human being in the most ordinary usage of that term, no more problematic than a term like "apple" or "chair" or "dog" "moral responsibility": being obliged to follow moral duties. Only human beings can be held morally responsible for their actions, and they are always responsible for their actions (save for the unlikely scenarios discussed above). These are my definitions, and none refer to metaphysical ontology.
I think this is evident, and you apparently do not. Hence, I agree that no progress can be made about free will and moral culpability if we cannot first decide whether or not a person is ultimately reducible to physical states of matter.
1) I do not think we understand "physical states of matter". There are deep mysteries in physics that I believe have everything to do with what we consider to be metaphysics. The principles of locality and realism have been empirically falsified - or at the very least called into serious question - by quantum physics. The nature of time and causality is mysterious, and so on. 2) Even though I think that, I do not believe we need to solve these problems of physics nor decide if physical reductionism is true in order to have a consistent, meaningful understanding of volition and moral responsibility. Non-human things can also make choices (amoebas, dogs, computers) but lacking moral sense they cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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RD
How about you actually try and tell us where you’re going with these questions? :-)
It isn't a trap. I am just trying to understand your position. I now understand that you don't think we are limited to just one choice or one course of action. That is clear. Thank you. Libertarian free will (defined as agent-causal libertarianism) agrees with that position. My purpose for asking is to find out precisely what it is about libertarian free will that you disagree with. Is it the part which says that we can, if we have a good reason, choose a course of action that goes against our impulses?StephenB
May 22, 2013
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WJM: Yup, all the angels on his side, nothing but devils, fools, ignoramuses and incompetents on ours. Poison, polarise, duck, dodge, never address the merits always attack the man on whatever excuse. Sad, and sadly revealing. Similar to the outrageous pretence at TSZ that nothing was wrong, no one made an invidious comparison as though only Nazis and KF could imagine something could be wrong with the radical agenda du jour; so the real prob must be that I am an enemy of rights etc. That one is laced with so many levels of slander, snide insinuations and suggestions and deceit that I cannot count the ways. Someone needs to take apart that toxic divisiveness and where such ruthless, nihilistic factionism will -- again [note Plato's warning] -- lead our civilisation if unchecked. Sad, and sadly revealing. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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RDFIsh @198,
"I was agreeing that in your scenario the bank robber was still able to choose among different options, and he chose to rob the bank. It appears that one can be fully or partially coerced, and as you point out, even in this situation the robber was not fully coerced, so he was still capable of freely making a choice. Thus he was responsible, although he should not be punished the same as if the situation were different."
Fair enough! :) But the question still remains. In what circumstance would coercion actually remove free choice between alternatives? The demand, "Do X or die" still leaves one with a choice. Coercion quite obviously changes my evaluation of choices with regard to their outcomes. It does not prevent my ability to decide freely. Which circumstances would inform such a choice are irrelevant if in fact no choice exists. So there's no disagreement between us that various factors would influence to what degree we should hold our bank robber responsible. What is still unknown is what sort of coercion you have in mind that could leave one without any choice.
If we can’t decide whether a person is an indivisible self or merely a collection of brain states, then there’s nothing to be said about moral responsibility or free will.
Well you are restating the topic under discussion, but this isn’t an argument I’m afraid.
Yes, I'm restating why trying to define "human" without addressing the fundamental ontology of personhood is rather pointless when determining issues of moral responsibility and free will. I think this is evident, and you apparently do not. Hence, I agree that no progress can be made about free will and moral culpability if we cannot first decide whether or not a person is ultimately reducible to physical states of matter.
Agreed, no progress can be made. I was just checking.
Wow, really? You can’t identify a human being when you see one? That is just plain weird, sorry. Can you identify a dog? A bird? A chair? How do you function in the world?
It has nothing to do with identification, it has to do with definition. You're playing semantic games; and I think it's pretty obvious that determining whether a person has free will and moral responsibility for their actions hinges entirely on the definition of personhood, which you are either agnostic about, or just evasive about. Whether I can recognize a dog, bird, or human has no bearing upon this. Best, ChanceChance Ratcliff
May 22, 2013
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I see we've moved full-tilt to the Alinsky school of debate.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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Onlookers, more excuses, to avoid reading in effect notes on first principles of right reason. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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Hi KF, Good grief! I'm not ducking your blog - I don't like the way you write and I'm just not going to waste my time wading through it, especially since you can't clearly state your arguments to me here. Frankly, I find your writing incredibly bad - it's like you look up every word in a thesaurus and pick the one with the most syllables - and your level of drama and histrionics is just a little too much for me to bear. I certainly disagree with lots of folks here, but most of them can put together coherent responses and refrain from accusing me of lying (for goodness sake you are still upset about the comment regarding clicks on your blog? Get over it!!!) and of being a pawn in the advancement of totalitarianism! I will gladly give you the last word, where you can accuse me of all sorts of nefarious motives and deeds, but I do not intend to respond to you any more. Sincerely, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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KF@197: At this point (actually, much earlier) it's fairly obvious that RDFish is not debating in good faith. Or, RDFish is actually a computed phenomena incapable of meaningfully addressing divergent concepts is and only capable of responding to terminology with terminology computed as matching and responsive. Which is how one spots a Turing machine.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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RDF: You seem to have things back-ways around:
As I quoted from several sources, the LoC says that no events can be uncaused, or that everything that happens must be caused.
I have repeatedly pointed to what would help but you WILL not even spend a few minutes. I will observe that it starts with sufficient reason. If something A exists we may ask and seek an answer to: why. If we consider a struck match it will help. The flame begins. It depends on a cluster of enabling factors that must be present -- fuel, heat, oxidiser, chain reaction. A sufficient cluster including all necessary enabling factors, must be present for the flame to begin, or continue. Thus the fire is contingent and caused. We generalise: that which begins -- implicit in "happens" -- is contingent and caused. Same, if they cease, same if something depends on arrangement and presence of parts, etc. The crucial form of causes is the necessary, enabling one. We can then reflect a different possibility: something without such factors. Such is a candidate necessary being. Such, may be like a square circle -- the required attributes are mutually inconsistent and such is impossible. But, some things, like the truth in 2 + 3 = 5, are possible. Not being dependent on anything to enable them, they have no beginning, no end. such are the actual, necessary beings. Of course, the most interesting such candidate is God. There is no reason to infer that everything is contingent. There is no good reason to infer that God cannot create, is not a possible cause. But, that is for another time and place. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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RDFish said:
Hi WJM, Computation is the processing of information according to a formal logic; in other words, it is algorithmic. Physical causality may or may not be algorithmic – that is an open question. Again, Roger Penrose (a physicist) believes that physical cause and effect is non-algorithmic. Cheers, RDFish
Please direct me to where you got your definition of "computation".William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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Hi Chance,
Agreed, no progress can be made. I was just checking.
Wow, really? You can't identify a human being when you see one? That is just plain weird, sorry. Can you identify a dog? A bird? A chair? How do you function in the world? :-)
If we can’t decide whether a person is an indivisible self or merely a collection of brain states, then there’s nothing to be said about moral responsibility or free will.
Well you are restating the topic under discussion, but this isn't an argument I'm afraid.
But the man was coerced, significantly. So was his choice to rob the bank free or not? If it was not free, how did coercion remove his ability to choose; and why would he be responsible for a non-free choice?
I was agreeing that in your scenario the bank robber was still able to choose among different options, and he chose to rob the bank. It appears that one can be fully or partially coerced, and as you point out, even in this situation the robber was not fully coerced, so he was still capable of freely making a choice. Thus he was responsible, although he should not be punished the same as if the situation were different.
Thanks in advance for your answers. I know you’re having discussions on multiple fronts.
Yes, it's a bit of a challenge! I'll have to take a break soon :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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WJM: Notice, that in the face of repeated invitation to simply take a few minutes to read a 101 summary on first principles of right reason that would inter alia clarify the distinction between contingent and necessary being, RDF has found every excuse and diversion to duck. At one point, I was falsely accused of pecuniary interest. When I called him on it, he then tried to make light of it as a mere joke. Something is deeply wrong, and RDF refuses to see what he is enabling as a fellow traveller. (RDF, you do not have to be an evo mat nihilist to become a fellow traveller and part of the problem.) KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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Hi WJM,
RDFish: an uncaused cause doesn’t violate the law of causality. All effects are caused. No version of the law of causality insists there are no uncaused causes.
Let's look at this another way. As I quoted from several sources, the LoC says that no events can be uncaused, or that everything that happens must be caused. Now, when a human being pushes a button, that is an event - it is something that happens. We ask, what caused that the human being to press the button, and your answer is that there is something unobservable (that you call "the will") inside this human being that caused them to press the button, and that nothing at all caused this unobservable thing in turn to make that happen. So you are truncating the causal chain simply by positing something inside a human being that can cause things to happen without any antecedent cause, which clearly violates the LoC. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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RDFish @191, Ha! I thought so. Agreed, no progress can be made. I was just checking. ;) If we can't decide whether a person is an indivisible self or merely a collection of brain states, then there's nothing to be said about moral responsibility or free will. Care to answer my #183 anyway? :)Chance Ratcliff
May 22, 2013
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PS: One of the many bits of manipulation has been the constant one-sided drumbeat that THE threat to liberty -- notice, this is being itself manipulated from its proper meaning -- is "religion" held to be the mother-milk of tyrannical oppression. This is dangerously, toxically one-sided and the exaggerated, shrill, hysterically denunciatory, rage-warped, over-done scapegoating tone that so commonly comes with it should long since have alerted us to the blatant spin game here. Or, is part of the problem, that too many of us WANT our ears tickled with the addictive poison of anti-Christian rhetoric, baiting and Bigotry? Indeed, this is as blatant and as bad as the sort of racism my Father's generation faced. For shame! In fact, arising from the characteristic principles of the Christian faith, if we are but willing to let go of reams of deceptive, one sided, poisonously manipulative indoctrination, we can easily see that a major root of modern liberty and self-government by a free, moral people, has been the Christian faith and scriptures shaping the Christian worldview and challenging civilisation to reformation especially after the Bible was put in the hands of the ordinary man once printing was invented and literacy began to be widespread. This same dynamic had a lot to do with the liberation of slaves in the Caribbean. Similarly, the same Faith had a lot to do positively with the rise of modern science. But obviously, a great part of the problem is that we are now confronting a Gordian knot that has tangled up our thinking in so many interacting, mutually tangling ways. We need to come to a deep-seated flash of insight that we have become captivated to a false conventional wisdom, and cut clean through the knot. That is why we need to go to the roots, starting with worldview foundations in light of common sense reasoning -- which can then lead to warranted, credible, self-evident truths and recognition among these of first principles of right reason. That, too, is why I start from Royce's pivot: error exists, which is knowable, true and undeniable, devastating a wide swath of schemes of thought that subjectivise and relativise truth, knowledge etc.kairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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Hi WJM, Computation is the processing of information according to a formal logic; in other words, it is algorithmic. Physical causality may or may not be algorithmic - that is an open question. Again, Roger Penrose (a physicist) believes that physical cause and effect is non-algorithmic. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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RDFish: an uncaused cause doesn't violate the law of causality. All effects are caused. No version of the law of causality insists there are no uncaused causes.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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Hi Chance,
RDF: “The person making the choice determines the choice.” CR: Sure, but what is a person under your definition of personhood? Is the person ultimately an indivisible self, or rather a collection of material brain states? Or something else entirely?
When I talk about a person, I mean it in the most ordinary and common-sense way, meaning an individual human being. The term makes no presuppositions about metaphysics; if we can't agree on what an individual human being is, we certainly won't make any further progress here :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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Cause and effect is not the same as computation..
Then tell me how they qualitatively differ.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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You really did admit to this, when you argued that this exception to the LoC was required in order to preserve moral responsibility and avoid infinite regress.
Now you're lying, because I already corrected you on this matter.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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CR @182: Exactly. RDFish's argument hinges upon using terms (inner states, memories, person, complexity, choice) in ways that seem to elevate a physically computed, caused event from mere physical computation, but under his/her paradigm cannot. Without libertarian free will, every "person" is an ongoing physical computation. Memories are computed states. "Inner states" and "choices" are physical computations - they cannot be anything else, because there is no supervening agency that is not wholly constructed by and subservient to the causal chain in question. However, it has been my experience that many people simply cannot see that this is what they are doing; they are focused on the terminology, and are often unable to see the conceptual foundation that supports (or does not support) the terms being used. RDFish's argument appears to be that, well, we all know people make choices, and that those choices are categorically different from the "choice" a rock makes rolling down a hill. Apparently unseen by RDFish, the reason we "know" (or assume) this is because of the fundamental principle that an act of will is functionally, categorically different in nature than a rock hitting another rock and changing course. That functional difference is available to theists; it is not available to the argument that there are no uncaused causes and that everything is physically caused to be. But RDFish and that ilk seem impervious to understanding that they are stealing concepts when they employ such terminology (person, self, choice, memory, inner states, emergence, complexity) in a way that hides the physical, computational aspect of the sequence in question.William J Murray
May 22, 2013
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Hi KF,
Did you not see how such [my questioning the coherence and truth of contra-causality in human thought] leads to radical relativism, amorality and nihilism as well as undermining of objective knowledge and duty, thence the nihilistic radical faction seizing power and using the apparatus of the state to impose its will and brainwash multitudes, leading to mass murder and the horrific wars of C20?
Nope, sorry, but I think this is weird nonsense. I'm not a moral relativist, much less a radical one, so you got that wrong right off the bat. Again, KF, I don't think we communicate well. I'm sorry if you think that my beliefs are dangerous, but all I can say is that I would put my behavior up against yours any time with regard to morality, and I'd come out just fine indeed. Again, thanks for the discussion. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
You seem to be conflating unpredictable with undetermined.
Nope, I didn't - I think those terms are distinct and I used them correctly. I simply did not commit to saying if the "environment" that a computer might potentially interact with is determined or not (I don't know the answer to that, and neither does anyone else!). But the point remains that the computer is in theory no more determined than the universe.
I believe that all effects are determined by their causes whether they are predictable or not. For me, predictability would be orthogonal to the determined nature of an event. I cannot predict what fair dice will roll, but from the time I choose to release them, assuming no other agent intervenes, every part of their motion will be perfectly determined by physical laws such that the result is inevitable.
Ok, you are a physical determinist. I'd say modern physics is generally interpreted to mean you're wrong about this, but the issue is orthogonal to our debate regarding choice.
We use the word “random” to cover for our limitations in predicting outcomes, but that doesn’t imply that those outcomes are not part of a determined causal chain.
Again, most (but not all) physicists believe quantum randomness is a special type that is inherently undetermined, but I don't want to argue about that because it isn't relevant to any of my arguments. How about my other questions??? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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Hi WJM,
RDF: You just insist, for some reason, that in order for that to count as agency it must violate the laws of physics... WJM: I insist no such thing.
Ok, so you do not believe that agency entails libertarianism? Really?
You are the one that insists that physics disallows the existence of a causeless cause;
Uh, nope - I certainly don't think that! Where'd you get that idea? All I said was that the Law of Causality is inconsistent with libertarianism!
...you are the one that insists that every event which “happens”, including will, is caused.
Well yes, I said I was going to argue against libertarianism arguendo, although in fact I am agnostic on the issue myself.
I’ve already pointed out your conflation of an agency (free will) with what that agency does (actions, causing effects).
Yes, those things are distinct. The agent is the entity who acts. The acts are the behaviors the entity exhibits. Correct. I believe you are arguing that agents act without cause, or that agents are somehow self-caused, when they act. Right?
Now I’m pointing out the categorical ramifications of your view which you have so far failed to rebut with anything other than semantics, subterfuge (“inner states”) and convenient labeling.
I don't think you've been reading my arguments very carefully.
It is my position that physics does not preclude the existence of a causeless cause – in fact, it is my position that physics, in order to have sufficient cause, requires that a causeless cause exist (to avoid infinite regress).
Again, I have never argued that physics precludes a causeless cause. I have argued that the Law of Causilty precludes it. I think you've tried to use hand-waving and semantics to say that since free will is a cause but not an effect, the fact that an agent can act without prior cause does not violate the Law of Causality. I disagree, and argue that libertarianism does in fact require that when an agent causes something to happen without antecedent cause, it is a violation of the Law of Causality. You really did admit to this, when you argued that this exception to the LoC was required in order to preserve moral responsibility and avoid infinite regress.
You do not like...
Don't tell me what I like and don't like, because you have no idea whatsoever. Don't you think it's prudent to keep quiet about things you don't know anything about? I think you are quite rude to do say things like that, actually.
...the fact that your “free will” cannot be anything more than a physical computation (cause & effect),
Cause and effect is not the same as computation - they are entirely different concepts, and conflating them confuses this already complex issue.
...as if terminology can save your argument.
I politely ask people to define their terms so we may clarify our views instead of taking past each other. I think it is quite important. If you choose to avoid definining your terms, you might want to refrain from discussing these things with me in the future. What is your definition of the verb "to choose"? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 22, 2013
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RDF: Where have you been over the past 150 - 250 years, from the French revolution forward? Have you never heard of the way that marxists, freudians, neitzscheans, skinnerians, eugenicists and ever so many others ended up reducing mentality to manipulation and conditioning riding on genetic deposits shaped by non-rational forces and factors? Did you not see how such leads to radical relativism, amorality and nihilism as well as undermining of objective knowledge and duty, thence the nihilistic radical faction seizing power and using the apparatus of the state to impose its will and brainwash multitudes, leading to mass murder and the horrific wars of C20? Have you so often skimmed past Plato's explicit prophetic prediction and warning, rooted in the events of Athens across the years of the Peloponnesian war and its aftermath? Do I again need to call exhibit no 1 to witness, Alcibiades? Let me cite Plato's warning then, remember this is c 360 BC, in The Laws Bk X, 2350 years ago. Close resemblance to the horrors of the past 250 years of our civilisation is NOT coincidental, as Heine also highlighted in his own prophetic warnings 80 years before the Rape of Belgium and 100 years before Hitler:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
Flash, zundap, boom! I see what is going on: we have been made artificially ignorant of history, and so we do not know the lessons of the past that would save us from those who would now manipulate us. Let us wake up before it is too late. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2013
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RDFish,
"In your scenario, the man who robs the bank would, in my view, be just as responsible for robbing the bank as the ruthless criminal would be responsible for kidnapping the family. Those are the people responsible for those acts, period."
But the man was coerced, significantly. So was his choice to rob the bank free or not? If it was not free, how did coercion remove his ability to choose; and why would he be responsible for a non-free choice? Thanks in advance for your answers. I know you're having discussions on multiple fronts.Chance Ratcliff
May 22, 2013
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RDFish,
"The person making the choice determines the choice."
Sure, but what is a person under your definition of personhood? Is the person ultimately an indivisible self, or rather a collection of material brain states? Or something else entirely?Chance Ratcliff
May 22, 2013
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