Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

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Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
Hi RD
Please read what I wrote regarding codifiable formal rules being the basis for thought, as you seem to have missed the point. It really is a pretty interesting issue
What codifiable formal rules of thought? Please be specific.
I am utterly certain that nobody understands how human beings reason (i.e. how we think), and I will say that is one of the least controversial statements I can imagine. I can defend it thus: If you (or anyone else) claims to understand how human beings reason, simply explain it! How do I add two numbers in my head? How do I produce a grammatical sentence? How do I solve a crossword puzzle, or write a melody, or prove a theorem, or get a joke? How do our brains work?
Since you do not yet grasp the difference between foundational principles and processes even after I articulated the difference, I will abandon any hope of communicating that difference.
That could only be because you have not paid attention to what I’ve said, I’m afraid.
I paid close attention. You have disclosed no position on free will, except to say that you have no position.
With regard to free will, I said this: I already said the sort of approach I’m sympathetic to, but I expressed my opinion that there is current no satisfactory solution to the problem (and that goes for mind/body ontology too). That is my position, and there is nothing hard to understand about it. There are plenty of professional philosophers who take this stand, and while of course people disagree (because everybody in philosophy disagrees about these things!) nobody accuses them of being evasive, dishonest, or afraid to state their views!
As I said, you have no position except to say that you have no position. Why do you try to skate past these kinds of things?
Now you ask if there are compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism, but I think you already know that libertarianism is construed by some as compatible with materialism by invoking physical indeterminism.
There you go again, equivocating between undefined libertarianism and well-defined agent-causal libertarianism, in an attempt to have it both ways. Yet you are offended when I question your intellectual honesty.
I’d agree that justice cannot be separated from rightness.
Good. We have found common ground on at least one topic.
By the way, the moral theory I subscribe to is very much like “natural moral law”, if I understand how you’re using that. I do not consider that to be essentially “objective”, however, because it derives from thoughts and feelings internal to human minds.
If your moral theory is not objective, then it has little resemblance to the natural moral law. The natural moral law is, by definition, objective. It is the moral counterpart to the laws of nature. When Thomas Jefferson speaks of the “Laws of Nature” and “Nature’s God,” he is referring to objective laws about human nature that transcend human thoughts and feelings, which are changeable and vary from person to person.
What I think it (objective) means is “not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased”
I can work with that definition.
We’re talking past each other. I won’t argue if logic or mathematics is discovered or invented.
Why not? This is a critical element of the discussion, and yet, once again, you refuse to take a stand. Remarkable.
I will argue that “the rules of right reason” account for precious little of our reasoning.
What part of our reasoning is exempt from reason’s rules?
Not all truths are simple, I’m afraid. If only it were so.
Granted, not all truths are simple, but they can all be reduced to their simplest essence. Anyone who cannot explain even the most abstruse point in philosophy or science such that a twelve-year-old could grasp its main points does not understand the subject and is bluffing.
I read a little Chesterton a long time ago. As I recall, it was full of little proverbs and aphorisms and sayings that over-simplified everything… much like the quote of WJ Murray that started this whole discussion. Like fortune cookies, these things sound profound, but you can interpret them however you want. Here’s a few Chesterton quotes I just picked at random:
Obviously, you missed the point about simplicity on the other side of complexity. No random quotes out of context, please. Which book did your read?StephenB
May 12, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
My exact words were as follows: “In principle, the Law of Non-Contradiction is a subset of reason’s rules, but we discussing the applications of those principles, not the principles themselves.” I don’t know how you could have missed the first clause in that sentence.
Ok, I'll clarify one last time. I commented on Murray's quote, remarking that he listed the LNC and the "principles of sound reason" as two different things. I said that the former was subsumed by the latter, which it is. You responded thus:
RDF: #1 is obviously subsumed by #2. SB: No it isn’t.
You went on to make a point about application; I remarked that your distinction came subsequently, so my initial remark was quite well justified. Now, this is a very minor point, and I think we're just bumping chests here instead of arguing something interesting. If you really need to be right about this, I shall graciously concede arguendo.
RDF: On what is human reason based? Well, if reasoning was based on codifiable rules that we could articulate, then reasoning could be formalized, and mechanized. I’m certainly not familiar with all of your opinions, but from what I gather so far I’m guessing that suggesting human reason is formal (algorithmic) would run counter to various other philosophical commitments you have. Am I wrong? SB: You are trying to answer a question with a question. If reason has no rules, then what is it based on? If you think it is based on nothing at all, then just say so. If you think it is based on something, tell me what that something is.
Hahaha! Apparently my question was "Am I wrong?", so yes, I guess I answered a question with a question! (I hope you meant to be funny). Please read what I wrote regarding codifiable formal rules being the basis for thought, as you seem to have missed the point. It really is a pretty interesting issue.
RDF: To answer your question, I’m certain that I do not understand how human reason proceeds, and I’m certain that nobody else does either. SB: You are “certain” that no one understands the foundational rules for right reason? That is a very bold statement. How can you possibly defend it?
I am utterly certain that nobody understands how human beings reason (i.e. how we think), and I will say that is one of the least controversial statements I can imagine. I can defend it thus: If you (or anyone else) claims to understand how human beings reason, simply explain it! How do I add two numbers in my head? How do I produce a grammatical sentence? How do I solve a crossword puzzle, or write a melody, or prove a theorem, or get a joke? How do our brains work? I anxiously await your explanation, because I have wondered about these things for a very long time. Also, you would surely earn a Nobel Prize on the spot, and I will be able to say that "I heard it first on Uncommon Descent!"
By the way, why did you inject the words “how reason proceeds,” as if we were discussing processes rather than foundations?
First, the word "proceed" can simply mean to go forward or carry on, which is how I used the word. But yes, I am discussing the process of thought. What I said was, as you recall, was this:
RDF: "[H]uman reasoning was not largely rule-based"
I went on to explain that if our reasoning abilities really did arise from a set of codifiable rules, we could look at any statement and objectively determine if it was reasonable or not. But of course we can do no such thing. We could also automate human reasoning, i.e. we could build an artificially intelligent machine that could think like a person does. But we obviously can't do that either.
RDF: And I will not counter the point, because I believe we have no objective standards for that [reason] of course. If we did, we could program computers to argue for us and they would do a much better job of it! SB: I can’t imagine why you think that the second sentence provides any support for the first sentence.
You really can't? I'll try to explain it then. You seem to believe that there is a set of objective rules that serve as the basis for human reason, and that these rules enable us to look at some statement in human language and determine if it is "reasonable" or not. But that is simply not true. Let's try it and see. Here is a statement: "Obama should cut taxes to stimulate the economy." Can you show us how to objectively determine if that is a reasonable statement or not by referring to some set of rules?
In order to have an interesting discussion, it is necessary for both sides to provide straight answers to straight questions.
I think we are both giving the "straightest" answers we can - I know I am. But hopefully you can see that not every question has a simple answer! (Classic example: "Please answer yes or no: Have you stopped beating your wife?").
I recall only that you referred to the fact that many approaches exist, while taking no position at all. Your position is a total mystery to me.
That could only be because you have not paid attention to what I've said, I'm afraid. With regard to free will, I said this: I already said the sort of approach I’m sympathetic to, but I expressed my opinion that there is current no satisfactory solution to the problem (and that goes for mind/body ontology too). That is my position, and there is nothing hard to understand about it. There are plenty of professional philosophers who take this stand, and while of course people disagree (because everybody in philosophy disagrees about these things!) nobody accuses them of being evasive, dishonest, or afraid to state their views!
There may be compatibilist, materialist versions of agent causality, but I don’t know of any compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism. What compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism did you have in mind?
I said there were compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causality, and you acknowledge that possibility. Now you ask if there are compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism, but I think you already know that libertarianism is construed by some as compatible with materialism by invoking physical indeterminism. I find that account incoherent myself (or at least it is not a variety of free will worth wanting, as that infamous materialist is fond of saying), but it is not a logical contradiction.
I know that metaphysical libertarianism means different things to different people. What I am discussing is called agent-causal libertarianism, which is a definitive position that can be articulated with precision.
Well in that case, you might have articulated this (your) view with precision already and saved some back-and-forth, no? Some questions you'd need to clarify would include, How does it work? Does it require dualism? Interactionism? Is each mind an uncaused cause? Do you view agent causality as a tertium quid, and if so, how is it constrained (if at all)? For about the tenth time, I am always reluctant to debate metaphysics, since I don't think any position can be satisfactorily defended. My point here, again for the tenth time, is that these questions are complex and difficult and very smart people have debated them for thousands of years without managing to build anything of a consensus. (But you're probably aware that if there was something approaching a consensus in contemporary Western philosophy, dualistic agency would certainly not be the winner!)
Earlier, you said that you don’t agree with that view,...
I said I didn't subscribe to any particular solution to the problem, yes, because none seem satisfatory.
...indicating that you know what “it” is, but now you seem to be claiming that there are too many versions of it to comment on–or else you are equivocating between metaphysical libertarianism an agent-causal libertarianism. Can you clear this up?
Ok. We have already agreed there are many conflicting meanings for libertarianism. I have never equivocated on anything here. "Metaphysical libertarianism" refers to all of these views regarding free will; the "metaphysical" part simply distinguishes the term "libertarianism" from the political philosophy of the same name, and so "agent-causal libertarianism" is one type of metaphysical libertarianism, not something that is diffrent from it.
Also, I think that Robert Kane is an event-causal libertarian, not an agent-causal libertarian. Why did you bring him up?
I brought up Kane and van Inwagen as people who have argued for libertarianism in ways that you would not agree with.
Well, yes, I would say that any notion of arbitrary justice conceived by a philosopher, as opposed to objective justice coming from the natural moral law, is not really justice. I can argue that point all day long.
Anybody can argue all day long, but that really isn't the goal. I do not believe I've read any moral theorist who argues for "arbitrary justice". You're statements are a bit like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy!
SB: I think justice derives objectively from natural moral law Rawls: I think justice derives from fairness SB: Ha! That's not justice, because justice derives from natural moral law! See, I'm right!
The concept of moral rightness cannot be separated from the concept of justice–even justice arbitrarily conceived.
I'd agree that justice cannot be separated from rightness. I am not aware of any moral philosophers arguing for "arbitrary" justice; in other words, I do not believe that the opposite of natural moral law is arbitrary morality. By the way, the moral theory I subscribe to is very much like "natural moral law", if I understand how you're using that. I do not consider that to be essentially "objective", however, because it derives from thoughts and feelings internal to human minds.
Objective means not subjective, not coming from the individual or the “subject.” What do you think it means?
What I think it means is "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased" (dictionary.com).
RDF: You implied above that there are “objective” standards that can be used to objectively determine if a statement is reasonable. But I can’t think of a definition of “objectivity” that could possibly make your position true. SB: The rules of right reason do not come from the individual. They are discovered by the individual. They are, in that sense, objective. The subject discovers the object. Get it?
We're talking past each other. I won't argue if logic or mathematics is discovered or invented. I will argue that "the rules of right reason" account for precious little of our reasoning.
Philosophers who deny reason’s rules are not really philosophers—they are sophists.
I repeat: I wasn't aware of anyone denying "reason's rules". And I repeat: "Reason's rules" do not account for human reasoning.
At the most primitive level, the simpleton does not appreciate the complexity of the issues involved. At the intermediate level, the sophist recognizes the complexities, but he doesn’t understand them well enough to work his way through them and separate truth from error—so he just wallows in them. The wise man understands the subtleties, works his way through them, and finds truth and simplicity on the other side of complexity. You seem to be stuck at the middle level.
Well I'm fortunate to have happened upon this site, so I can finally break free of wallowing in my mediocrity and sophism ;-) Not all truths are simple, I'm afraid. If only it were so.
To take the next step, read something—anything–by G.K. Chesterton.
I read a little Chesterton a long time ago. As I recall, it was full of little proverbs and aphorisms and sayings that over-simplified everything... much like the quote of WJ Murray that started this whole discussion. Like fortune cookies, these things sound profound, but you can interpret them however you want. Here's a few Chesterton quotes I just picked at random:
Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere. Does that mean Chesterton believes morality is arbitrary? Or that art is objective? I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean. Does that mean Chesterton believes getting into trouble is a good thing? There nearly always is a method in madness. It's what drives men mad, being methodical. Does he really think that being methodical is a primary cause of insanity?
I'm sure it's a matter of taste, but I find this sort of writing very irritating.
RDF: What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia. SB: You have just contradicted yourself by taking a particular view after saying that no one should take a particular view. RDF: No, you have put words in my mouth, because I never said no one should take a particular view! SB: You are twisting yourself into a pretzel. To say that people ought not to think that any particular view is obvious or correct is to take a particular view, namely that people should not take that position. Yes, you did contradict yourself.
Please read more carefully, and if you choose to quote me, please don't change my words!!!! Here is what I said: people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. Here is what you pretended that I said: people ought not to think that any particular view is obvious or correct By changing my conjunction into a disjunction, you are able to pretend that I was saying there are no correct positions, and nobody should take any particular view. But I have corrected you on this TWICE now! I have made the point painfully clearly, using CAPITAL LETTERS AND BOLD FONTS AND ITALICS, that what I was denying was the OBVIOUSNESS of any potentially correct answer!!!!!!! Look here @20:
RDF: What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia. Even theists – even Christians – argue amongst themselves on these issues, after all. [emphasis in the original!!]
And Look here @28:
If you read my comments with a little more care and a little less anger you’d see that I’m saying no particular view on these issues is OBVIOUSLY correct, which I would say is obvious in itself.[EMPHASIS in the original!!]
I am at a loss as to how to make myself more clear here. I suppose if you are determined to put words in my mouth, I am powerless to stop you.
Why, though, should it matter to you? If, as you believe, there are no rules for reason, then contradictions are just as reasonable as anything else.
All right, Stephen. I believe at this point the fair reader will realize you are not really arguing in good faith. I never said "there are no rules for reason" - you are again pretending that I am saying stupid things just so you can feel like you are beating me in some debate game here. If you'd like to pretend that I believe "contradictions are just as reasonable as anything else" then there is really no chance of moving forward here. If you were more confident of your own views you could comment on mine without misrepresenting them. Anybody can build stupid strawmen and knock them down.
Also, you are assuming that objective truth doesn’t exist simply because people disagree about it. This is illogical. People come on this site every day and disagree with the Law of Non_Contradiction and they can always find some nitwit philosopher that will agree with them. That doesn’t make the principle any less true, any less objective, or any less self-evident.
You are not arguing with me, because I have never said any of these things. Maybe you are arguing against stupid people who have come on this site previously. Or perhaps you put words into their mouths just like you do with me - I don't know. But I do know that I never said anything that anyone could reasonably construe to mean that there are no objective truths, or that I disagree with the LNC, or that there are no rules of reason. Now, you seem to be an intelligent and well-read person, and I'm sure we disagree about lots of things, and if you open your eyes and read what I say and respond accordingly we might have an interesting exchange. If instead you make up stupid stuff and pretend I said it, it will not be interesting at all. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 12, 2013
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Hi RD
Yes, and I responded thus: “Ok, sorry, I must have missed the part of the quote that established that”
My exact words were as follows: “In principle, the Law of Non-Contradiction is a subset of reason’s rules, but we discussing the applications of those principles, not the principles themselves.” I don’t know how you could have missed the first clause in that sentence.
Not only do I believe my intellectual honesty is quite up to par, but that it greatly exceeds the “modicum” that you imply I lack Seriously, please read my response again: Not only did I acknowledge that you made this distinction, but I was quite polite about it (Again, said “Ok, sorry…”) and went on to explain why I disagreed (because the category distinction was made by you and not by Murray in his quote).
Your statement was that Chance and Wikipedia disagreed with me on the grounds that they both hold that Law of Non-Contradiction was a subset of reason’s rules, as if I had argued to the contrary. I didn’t.
On what is human reason based? Well, if reasoning was based on codifiable rules that we could articulate, then reasoning could be formalized, and mechanized. I’m certainly not familiar with all of your opinions, but from what I gather so far I’m guessing that suggesting human reason is formal (algorithmic) would run counter to various other philosophical commitments you have. Am I wrong?
You are trying to answer a question with a question. If reason has no rules, then what is it based on? If you think it is based on nothing at all, then just say so. If you think it is based on something, tell me what that something is.
To answer your question, I’m certain that I do not understand how human reason proceeds, and I’m certain that nobody else does either.
You are “certain” that no one understands the foundational rules for right reason? That is a very bold statement. How can you possibly defend it? By the way, why did you inject the words “how reason proceeds,” as if we were discussing processes rather than foundations?
And I will not counter the point, because I believe we have no objective standards for that [reason] of course. If we did, we could program computers to argue for us and they would do a much better job of it!
I can’t imagine why you think that the second sentence provides any support for the first sentence.
I would actually appreciate a lot less accusatory rhetoric on your part, Stephen. I came here to have some interesting discussions about ID and philosophy and so on, not to be accused of being dishonest! It just seems you are being quite over-reactive to what I’ve said here.
In order to have an interesting discussion, it is necessary for both sides to provide straight answers to straight questions.
I already said the sort of approach I’m sympathetic to, but I expressed my opinion that there is current no satisfactory solution to the problem. That is not being evasive in the least.
I recall only that you referred to the fact that many approaches exist, while taking no position at all. Your position is a total mystery to me.
As for agent-causality in particular, perhaps you realize (and perhaps you don’t) that there are compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causality that you would likely reject!
There may be compatibilist, materialist versions of agent causality, but I don’t know of any compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism. What compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism did you have in mind?
I really don’t think I’ve equivocated on anything. If you don’t believe me that metaphysical libertarianism means different things to different people, read a little bit about it. Note in particular the view of people like Robert Kane and Peter van Inwagen, two prominent libertarian thinkers with whom I think you would disagree!
I know that metaphysical libertarianism means different things to different people. What I am discussing is called agent-causal libertarianism, which is a definitive position that can be articulated with precision. Earlier, you said that you don’t agree with that view, indicating that you know what “it” is, but now you seem to be claiming that there are too many versions of it to comment on--or else you are equivocating between metaphysical libertarianism an agent-causal libertarianism. Can you clear this up? Also, I think that Robert Kane is an event-causal libertarian, not an agent-causal libertarian. Why did you bring him up?
I think most people (including me) would say that rather than denying the existence of justice, various moral theories entail different theories of justice. You seem to think that only your theory of justice can be called “justice”, and decide for everybody else that they cannot use the word. I think this sort of rhetoric serves only to confuse the issue, producing heat but no light as it were. It is much more productive, in my view, to allow people to define what they mean rather than defining what other people mean for them.
Well, yes, I would say that any notion of arbitrary justice conceived by a philosopher, as opposed to objective justice coming from the natural moral law, is not really justice. I can argue that point all day long. Still, your comment doesn't really address my point. Moral rightness and justice are inextricably tied together; to deny the existence of the former is to deny the existence of the latter.
Here is the way I see you arguing: Rousseau: I believe that justice can be understood as a social contract. StephenB: You deny the very concept of justice! Kant: I believe right action adheres to the categorical imperative. StephenB: You deny that any action is right! Bentham: I believe that right action is that which best serves the most people. StephenB: You don’t believe that any action is right! And so on. It’s like you try to defeat other people’s arguments by definition instead of engaging their ideas.
An idea that isn’t defined isn’t really an idea, which is the problem with many of the things that you write. In any case, each author’s idea of justice as listed above, though arbitrary conceived, is tied to his idea of moral rightness, which was my point. The concept of moral rightness cannot be separated from the concept of justice--even justice arbitrarily conceived.
I think we disagree about the notion of objectivity.
Objective means not subjective, not coming from the individual or the "subject." What do you think it means? Or am I supposed to guess?
You implied above that there are “objective” standards that can be used to objectively determine if a statement is reasonable. But I can’t think of a definition of “objectivity” that could possibly make your position true.
The rules of right reason do not come from the individual. They are discovered by the individual. They are, in that sense, objective. The subject discovers the object. Get it?
In fact, I don’t understand how objectivity can be discrete rather than continuous. In other words, for me the question is not “Is morality objective?” but rather it must be “How can we conceive of morality such that it is maximally objective?”
I can’t comment on that until you tell me what you mean by “maximally objective.” In order to do that, of course, you must first define objective.
Philosophers much more adept than me (or you I dare say) continue to mount book-length arguments about these questions, as they have been for the past few millenia, yet you think you can lay the issues to rest by lumping a dozen different positions under a single rubric and then dismissing them in a phrase?
Philosophers who deny reason’s rules are not really philosophers—they are sophists. They are running away from reason because they don’t want to go where it might lead. What truth are you running away from?
And then top it off by accusing those (me) who require a bit more context and subtlety in order to make sense of these questions of being “dishonest”, “evasive”, and now “afraid”? Honestly it feels like you’re trying to bully people rather than engage them in an intelligent conversation.
At the most primitive level, the simpleton does not appreciate the complexity of the issues involved. At the intermediate level, the sophist recognizes the complexities, but he doesn’t understand them well enough to work his way through them and separate truth from error—so he just wallows in them. The wise man understands the subtleties, works his way through them, and finds truth and simplicity on the other side of complexity. You seem to be stuck at the middle level. To take the next step, read something—anything--by G.K. Chesterton.
Now, why can’t we talk about the various ways to approach the related problems of mind/body ontology, free will, morality, and origins by looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the various positions? For example, instead of battling about which “ism” we will defend, you could respond to my questions about objectivity in both epistemology and moral theory above.
Ask a substantive question and I will try to answer it. RDF: What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia. SB: You have just contradicted yourself by taking a particular view after saying that no one should take a particular view.
No, you have put words in my mouth, because I never said no one should take a particular view!
You are twisting yourself into a pretzel. To say that people ought not to think that any particular view is obvious or correct is to take a particular view, namely that people should not take that position. Yes, you did contradict yourself. Why, though, should it matter to you? If, as you believe, there are no rules for reason, then contradictions are just as reasonable as anything else. Also, you are assuming that objective truth doesn’t exist simply because people disagree about it. This is illogical. People come on this site every day and disagree with the Law of Non_Contradiction and they can always find some nitwit philosopher that will agree with them. That doesn’t make the principle any less true, any less objective, or any less self-evident.
Again, you seem desperately anxious to catch me in some sort of inconsistency, but I really haven’t been inconsistent (or evasive or dishonest or afraid) in any of my comments. If you read my comments with a little more care and a little less anger you’d see that I’m saying no particular view on these issues is OBVIOUSLY correct, which I would say is obvious in itself.
The Law of Non-Contradiction is obviously correct. You assume it and appeal to it every time you say that I didn’t say what I say you said, indicating that we cannot both be right at the same time.StephenB
May 12, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I went out of my way to explain that it was the APPLICATION of the principle that didn’t meet the standard of being a subset, not the PRINCIPLE ITSELF.
Yes, and I responded thus: "Ok, sorry, I must have missed the part of the quote that established that". It seems to me that Murray's quote can be reasonably interpreted as listing the law of contradiction and the "sound principles of reason" as being a single principle and a set of principles, respectively, hence my point that the latter subsumes the former seems quite valid. If you wish to go on to make a category distinction that's fine, but it was not really entailed by the quote I was commenting on, wouldn't you agree?
I would appreciate a modicum of intellectual honesty on your part.
Not only do I believe my intellectual honesty is quite up to par, but that it greatly exceeds the "modicum" that you imply I lack :-) Seriously, please read my response again: Not only did I acknowledge that you made this distinction, but I was quite polite about it (Again, said "Ok, sorry...") and went on to explain why I disagreed (because the category distinction was made by you and not by Murray in his quote).
RDF: What I pointed out was that human reasoning was not largely rule-based. SB: On what is it based? Please specify.
On what is human reason based? Well, if reasoning was based on codifiable rules that we could articulate, then reasoning could be formalized, and mechanized. I'm certainly not familiar with all of your opinions, but from what I gather so far I'm guessing that suggesting human reason is formal (algorithmic) would run counter to various other philosophical commitments you have. Am I wrong? To answer your question, I'm certain that I do not understand how human reason proceeds, and I'm certain that nobody else does either.
I pointed out that you have no objective standards for identifying a reasonable statement. So far, you have done nothing to counter the point.
And I will not counter the point, because I believe we have no objective standards for that of course. If we did, we could program computers to argue for us and they would do a much better job of it!
If you don’t want to comment on someone else’s ideas of free will, then you are free to not comment on them. You chose to do otherwise.
Absolutely correct - I couldn't agree more.
I once asked you outright if you subscribe to libertarian free will, and you refused to answer...
I beg to disagree. If you look back at my response you'll see I went to some effort to clarify my views on the issue. I'm sorry if you didn't read or understand them, but those are honestly my views. They are not simple, because the question is not simple, but I certainly did not refuse to answer.
... on the grounds that the subject is too complicated owing to the many “variations.”
Forgive me, but the idea that the problem of free will is complicated, and the idea that there are many different and mutually incompatible versions of libertarianism, is hardly controversial.
Now, all of a sudden, you know what libertarian free will means? This is very strange.
Well, I'm no expert but I do know a bit about the subject, and there is nothing "sudden" about it, as I think made clear in the previous thread.
Having taken note of your previous equivocation,
Huh? Now I'm equivocating? Wow, it seems I just can't do anything right :-) I really don't think I've equivocated on anything. If you don't believe me that metaphysical libertarianism means different things to different people, read a little bit about it. Note in particular the view of people like Robert Kane and Peter van Inwagen, two prominent libertarian thinkers with whom I think you would disagree!
I asked you on this thread if you subscribe to “agent-causal” libertarianism, yet you still refuse to answer. Again, I would appreciate a little intellectual honesty on your part.
I would actually appreciate a lot less accusatory rhetoric on your part, Stephen. I came here to have some interesting discussions about ID and philosophy and so on, not to be accused of being dishonest! It just seems you are being quite over-reactive to what I've said here. If you read my previous explanation of my views, you would already know that I do not subscribe to agent-causality for the simple reason that I do not "subscribe to" any particular solution that you can name. I already said the sort of approach I'm sympathetic to, but I expressed my opinion that there is current no satisfactory solution to the problem. That is not being evasive in the least. As for agent-causality in particular, perhaps you realize (and perhaps you don't) that there are compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causality that you would likely reject!
RDF: The exact same point applies here. Relativists, naturalists, intuitionists, emotivists, and others do not deny justice; SB: Of course they do.
I wasn't aware of this. Can you please tell me which philosophers deny the existence of justice?
To deny the existence of absolute morality and to deny the existence of objective morality is to deny the existence of justice.
I think most people (including me) would say that rather than denying the existence of justice, various moral theories entail different theories of justice. You seem to think that only your theory of justice can be called "justice", and decide for everybody else that they cannot use the word. I think this sort of rhetoric serves only to confuse the issue, producing heat but no light as it were. It is much more productive, in my view, to allow people to define what they mean rather than defining what other people mean for them.
RDF: It is certainly not pointless to argue with other people who have different ideas about morality and justice! SB: What is the point of trying to persuade someone to do the right thing if there is no such thing as the right thing?
And so I reiterate: Rather than claiming that moral theories other than the one you subscribe you simply deny that there is anything that should be called "right" or "wrong", you ought to engage the various ways others describe and ground the concept. Here is the way I see you arguing: Rousseau: I believe that justice can be understood as a social contract. StephenB: You deny the very concept of justice! Kant: I believe right action adheres to the categorical imperative. StephenB: You deny that any action is right! Bentham: I believe that right action is that which best serves the most people. StephenB: You don't believe that any action is right! And so on. It's like you try to defeat other people's arguments by definition instead of engaging their ideas.
The cynicism is coming from those who deny objective morality, not from me. Do you deny objective morality? Again, I would appreciate an honest and straightforward answer.
I think we disagree about the notion of objectivity. You implied above that there are "objective" standards that can be used to objectively determine if a statement is reasonable. But I can't think of a definition of "objectivity" that could possibly make your position true. In fact, I don't understand how objectivity can be discrete rather than continuous. In other words, for me the question is not "Is morality objective?" but rather it must be "How can we conceive of morality such that it is maximally objective?".
If there is no correct view, which is what relativists hold, then why argue as if one exists?
Was somebody arguing for epistemological relativism?
We can hardly have an intelligent conversation if you are afraid to tell us if you believe in objective morality and free will.
We certainly can't have an intelligent conversation if you insist on reducing these issues to zingers and gotchas. Philosophers much more adept than me (or you I dare say) continue to mount book-length arguments about these questions, as they have been for the past few millenia, yet you think you can lay the issues to rest by lumping a dozen different positions under a single rubric and then dismissing them in a phrase? And then top it off by accusing those (me) who require a bit more context and subtlety in order to make sense of these questions of being "dishonest", "evasive", and now "afraid"? Honestly it feels like you're trying to bully people rather than engage them in an intelligent conversation.
RDF: What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia. SB: You have just contradicted yourself by taking a particular view after saying that no one should take a particular view.
No, you have put words in my mouth, because I never said no one should take a particular view! Again, you seem desperately anxious to catch me in some sort of inconsistency, but I really haven't been inconsistent (or evasive or dishonest or afraid) in any of my comments. If you read my comments with a little more care and a little less anger you'd see that I'm saying no particular view on these issues is OBVIOUSLY correct, which I would say is obvious in itself. Now, why can't we talk about the various ways to approach the related problems of mind/body ontology, free will, morality, and origins by looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the various positions? For example, instead of battling about which "ism" we will defend, you could respond to my questions about objectivity in both epistemology and moral theory above. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 12, 2013
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Hi Chance,
RDFish @22, thanks for that, it’s appreciated. I input the HTML codes for those expressions manually. And I do consult Wikipedia, but usually it’s for the purpose of validation, and not generally for formulation; and I rarely if ever copy and paste directly without citation. Wikipedia is just one source among many. While it’s useful, I like to reference multiple sources before composing such responses, as I did in this case.
Sounds like a good policy. Again, no offense intended; I only referenced your post since StephenB seemed to contradict it.
I perceived your comment, “I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one’s own particular take on them are obvious and correct,” as a supposition that we use such remarks as a source of reasoning. I perceived an insult in that. I think you’ll find that, while folks here are certainly opinionated, such opinions are not generally reducible to fortune-cookie philosophy.
Right. I was talking about the quote from William J Murray. I know you seemed to like it, and I understand that it was just shorthand for much deeper opinions. Still, these sorts of quotes get passed around without additional context - here he was quoted by BA77 - and my point was that just reading that quote gives the impression that these questions are cut-and-dried, and definitively answered by these simple responses. As I mentioned to StephenB, not even all Christians agree on issues surrounding things like free will - various denominations and theologians argue quite different positions - so my view is that there are no simple arguments that make one or another viewpoint obviously correct. I see Murray's quote as being way too simple and "too clever by half" to do justice to these old philosophical conundrums, and I was objecting to that. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 12, 2013
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Semi OT: Group Session on "Self and Free Will: Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Perspectives" - video https://vimeo.com/11046953 Group Session on "Self and Free Will: Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Perspectives" Hosted by Dr. William Grassie, Founder, Metanexus Institute Presentations include: Dr. Steward Goetz, Ursinus College: "The Soul, Libertarian Freedom, and Causal Closure" Dr. Nancey Murphy, Fuller Theological Seminary: "Is 'Nonreductive Physicalism' an Oxymoron?" Presiding Scholar: Dr. Eric Weislogel, Vice President, Academic Affairs, Metanexus Institutebornagain77
May 11, 2013
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The second half of our discussion above is embedded in white background, so I will reproduce it here. RDFish
The exact same point applies here. Relativists, naturalists, intuitionists, emotivists, and others do not deny justice;
Of course they do. To deny the existence of absolute morality and to deny the existence of objective morality is to deny the existence of justice.
It is certainly not pointless to argue with other people who have different ideas about morality and justice!
What is the point of trying to persuade someone to do the right thing if there is no such thing as the right thing?
That would be a terribly cynical view!
The cynicism is coming from those who deny objective morality, not from me. Do you deny objective morality? Again, I would appreciate an honest and straightforward answer.
I think it is imperative that we argue and communicate to the best of our abilities, and try and persuade each other that our view is correct!
If there is no correct view, which is what relativists hold, then why argue as if one exists?
That is not what it means – to assume so would be a bad inference (I assume you can see why). Again, I’m not making about point about moral theory, I’m making a point about the dangers of over-simplifying moral positions and speciously trying to make opposing views seem ridiculous rather than engaging them intelligently.
We can hardly have an intelligent conversation if you are afraid to tell us if you believe in objective morality and free will. You say that you are not a “complete” moral relativist, but you will not tell us what that means. How can one be a partial moral relativist? What are your standards for rational discourse? Do you have any?
What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia.
You have just contradicted yourself by taking a particular view after saying that no one should take a particular view.StephenB
May 11, 2013
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RDFish
Well, Chance here, and the Wikipedia article he copied from, disagree with you, and I do too. The law of non-contradiction is certainly a fundamental principle of sound reason.
I went out of my way to explain that it was the APPLICATION of the principle that didn't meet the standard of being a subset, not the PRINCIPLE ITSELF. I made that point explictly. I would appreciate a modicum of intellectual honesty on your part. It is not intellectually honest to suggest that I argued that the Law of Non_Contradiction is not a subset of reason's rules, which it obviously is. It is not intellectually honest to ignore the argument that I did make and argue against an argument that I did not make.
Sorry, but I don’t recall having refused to acknowledge “reason’s rules”. What I pointed out was that human reasoning was not largely rule-based.
On what is it based? Please specify. I pointed out that you have no objective standards for identifying a reasonable statement. So far, you have done nothing to counter the point.
We will not make progress trying to solve the problem of free will.
If you don't want to comment on someone else's ideas of free will, then you are free to not comment on them. You chose to do otherwise.
I’m not saying libertarianism is wrong, I’m saying it is absurd to say that without it one can’t meaningfully talk about having an argument with somebody, or that there is no such thing as persuading somebody of something. Non-libertarians may be wrong, but they are not ridiculous, and these sorts of statements try and paint them as being simply stupid.
I once asked you outright if you subscribe to libertarian free will, and you refused to answer on the grounds that the subject is too complicated owing to the many "variations." Now, all of a sudden, you know what libertarian free will means? This is very strange. Having taken note of your previous equivocation, I asked you on this thread if you subscribe to "agent-causal" libertarianism, yet you still refuse to answer. Again, I would appreciate a little intellectual honesty on your part.
The exact same point applies here. Relativists, naturalists, intuitionists, emotivists, and others do not deny justice;
Of course they do. To deny the existence of absolute morality and to deny the existence of objective morality is to deny the existence of justice.
It is certainly not pointless to argue with other people who have different ideas about morality and justice!
What is the point of trying to persuade someone to do the right thing if there is no such thing as the right thing?
That would be a terribly cynical view!
The cynicism is coming from those who deny objective morality, not from me. Do you deny objective morality? Again, I would appreciate an honest and straightforward answer.
I think it is imperative that we argue and communicate to the best of our abilities, and try and persuade each other that our view is correct!
If there is no correct view, which is what relativists hold, then why argue as if one exists?
That is not what it means – to assume so would be a bad inference (I assume you can see why). Again, I’m not making about point about moral theory, I’m making a point about the dangers of over-simplifying moral positions and speciously trying to make opposing views seem ridiculous rather than engaging them intelligently.
We can hardly have an intelligent conversation if you are afraid to tell us if you believe in objective morality and free will. You say that you are not a "complete" moral relativist, but you will not tell us what that means. How can one be a partial moral relativist? What are your standards for rational discourse? Do you have any?
What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia.
You have just contradicted yourself by taking a particular view after saying that no one should take a particular view.
Even theists – even Christians – argue amongst themselves on these issues, after all.
Since you have no standard for evaluating a reasonable argument, you would have no way of knowing which arguments are best.
StephenB
May 11, 2013
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RDFish @22, thanks for that, it's appreciated. I input the HTML codes for those expressions manually. And I do consult Wikipedia, but usually it's for the purpose of validation, and not generally for formulation; and I rarely if ever copy and paste directly without citation. Wikipedia is just one source among many. While it's useful, I like to reference multiple sources before composing such responses, as I did in this case. To answer your question, "Which insult is it that you think I compounded? Did I manage to insult you previously too?" I perceived your comment, "I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one’s own particular take on them are obvious and correct," as a supposition that we use such remarks as a source of reasoning. I perceived an insult in that. I think you'll find that, while folks here are certainly opinionated, such opinions are not generally reducible to fortune-cookie philosophy. Thanks again for your comment at #22. Best, ChanceChance Ratcliff
May 10, 2013
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Hi Chance, I certainly meant no offense! I'm the dummy for (1) assuming you cut and pasted to begin with (you might have entered the '¬' symbol with your number pad, yes?) and (2) assuming that if you did copy it, you would have copied from Wikipedia. Many apologies. (Obviously Wikipedia lists the same 'rules of thought', though, so it wasn't a completely harebrained assumption). Now I'm curious, though: Which insult is it that you think I compounded? Did I manage to insult you previously too? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 10, 2013
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"Well, Chance here, and the Wikipedia article he copied from, disagree with you, and I do too."
Well here you just compound insults. Well done. Which Wikipedia article did I copy from?Chance Ratcliff
May 10, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: #1 is obviously subsumed by #2. SB: No it isn’t.
Well, Chance here, and the Wikipedia article he copied from, disagree with you, and I do too. The law of non-contradiction is certainly a fundamental principle of sound reason.
In principle, the Law of Non-Contradiction is a subset of reason’s rules, but we discussing the applications of those principles, not the principles themselves.
Ok, sorry, I must have missed the part of the quote that established that ;-)
By refusing to acknowledge reason’s rules, you are also acknowledging that you have no standard by which you can determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable, including your own.
Sorry, but I don't recall having refused to acknowledge "reason's rules". What I pointed out was that human reasoning was not largely rule-based.
If libertarian free will doesn’t exist, then no one is free to abandon the fate for which he is determined.
We will not make progress trying to solve the problem of free will. It was not my intent to engage the topic per se, but rather to point out that saying libertarianism is necessary for there to exist "someone to argue with" is silly. Even aside from all of the ways freedom doesn't require libertarianism, you can argue with a robot or a zombie after all.
Argument between Human with Free Will and Zombie: H: I have free will. Z: Brains! H: You can't eat my brain. Z: Mmm, yes. I eat your Brain! and so on
If one is not free to choose an alternate course of action, then he is also not free to be duly persuaded. Thus, he is not really available for any argument of consequence.
These sorts of arguments are good reasons to avoid philosophy by slogan. Even staunch libertarians (there aren't many in contemporary philosophy, but there are a few) wouldn't consider this an argument, Stephen. I'm not saying libertarianism is wrong, I'm saying it is absurd to say that without it one can't meaningfully talk about having an argument with somebody, or that there is no such thing as persuading somebody of something. Non-libertarians may be wrong, but they are not ridiculous, and these sorts of statements try and paint them as being simply stupid.
#4 is obviously true. If there is no such thing as justice, it is pointless to argue about how things “ought to be.” If there is no such thing as truth, then it is pointless to argue about what “is,” which means it is pointless to argue about anything.
The exact same point applies here. Relativists, naturalists, intuitionists, emotivists, and others do not deny justice; you are denying it for them. It is certainly not pointless to argue with other people who have different ideas about morality and justice! That would be a terribly cynical view! I think it is imperative that we argue and communicate to the best of our abilities, and try and persuade each other that our view is correct!
You say that you are not a “complete” moral relativist. Does that mean that you are an incomplete or partial moral relativist. How exactly does that work?
That is not what it means - to assume so would be a bad inference (I assume you can see why). Again, I'm not making about point about moral theory, I'm making a point about the dangers of over-simplifying moral positions and speciously trying to make opposing views seem ridiculous rather than engaging them intelligently.
RDF: Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one’s own particular take on them are obvious and correct. They’re not. SB: Whose take is correct?
What I said was that people ought not to think that any particular position on these ancient and difficult issues is obvious and correct. If they were obvious then people would not argue them for millenia. Even theists - even Christians - argue amongst themselves on these issues, after all. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 10, 2013
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Hi Chance,
I believe #2 is covered by the Classic Rules of Thought. It isn’t possible to reason without them....
Yes that is correct, and there are some other rules of formal logic too. Historically there have been those who imagined such rules could account for much or all of human reasoning, and this accounted for early optimism regarding Artificial Intelligence. It turns out that while rational thought does of course entail these, most of how we reason proceeds in ways we cannot codify.
I don’t understand the nitpicking.
I tried to make that clear when I said "I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one’s own particular take on them are obvious and correct." Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 10, 2013
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Obviously, the last paragraph @17 is a copy error on my part and was authored by RDFish. My comments end with the words, "How exactly does that work?"StephenB
May 10, 2013
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“If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.”---William J. Murray RDFish
1) law of non-contradiction 2) principles of sound reason 3) libertarian free will 4) objective morality #1 is obviously subsumed by #2.
No it isn't. The application of the set (reason's rules) is different from the application of the subset (Law of Non-Contradiction). In the first instance, the emphasis is on the subject. (If you reject the Law of Non-Contradiction, there is no topic to argue about since no proposition, however illogical, can be characterized as being objectively true or false). In the second instance, the emphasis is on reason as a tool. A tool cannot be a subset of a subject, because the latter is of a different category. So #1 is not subsumed into into #2. In principle, the Law of Non-Contradiction is a subset of reason's rules, but we discussing the applications of those principles, not the principles themselves.
As for #2, aside from the remaining rules of formal logic, and perhaps a list of informal fallacies to avoid, it isn’t clear what other principles #2 refers to. There really is no comprehensive guide to “the principles of sound reason” (if there was, we could make a computer that could reason soundly).
By refusing to acknowledge reason's rules, you are also acknowledging that you have no standard by which you can determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable, including your own.
As for #3, depending on the flavor of libertarianism you might wish to defend, there are plenty of difficult issues with that position (just like with every position in metaphysics). But saying that without libertarianism there is no such thing as a person to argue with is just sort of specious and silly.
You seem to have missed the point. If libertarian free will doesn't exist, then no one is free to abandon the fate for which he is determined. If one is not free to choose an alternate course of action, then he is also not free to be duly persuaded. Thus, he is not really available for any argument of consequence. On the problem of different flavors, most libertarians at this site embrace agent-causal libertarianism and accept it as the definition of free will. Do you accept or reject agent-causal libertarianism? Why?
And as for #4, it’s just patently false. Even for a complete moral relativist (I’m not one by the way) there is obviously plenty of reason to argue about morality and everything else besides!
#4 is obviously true. If there is no such thing as justice, it is pointless to argue about how things "ought to be." If there is no such thing as truth, then it is pointless to argue about what "is," which means it is pointless to argue about anything. You say that you are not a "complete" moral relativist. Does that mean that you are an incomplete or partial moral relativist. How exactly does that work?
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one’s own particular take on them are obvious and correct. They’re not.
Whose take is correct? Cheers, RDFishStephenB
May 10, 2013
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RDFish, I believe #2 is covered by the Classic Rules of Thought. It isn't possible to reason without them. Law of Identity: A = A - A thing is the same as itself and not the same as something else. Law of noncontradiction: ¬(A∧¬A) - Two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time. Law of excluded middle: (A∨¬A) - Either a proposition is true or its negation is true. What is your position on these axioms? As a succinct expression of a particular world view, WJM's aphorisms are entirely appropriate. Of course they're not nuanced, and they don't address every possible objection. I don't understand the nitpicking.Chance Ratcliff
May 10, 2013
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“If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.”
It seems to me this is one of those quotes that sounds pithy but doesn't really hold up well at all. 1) law of non-contradiction 2) principles of sound reason 3) libertarian free will 4) objective morality #1 is obviously subsumed by #2. As for #2, aside from the remaining rules of formal logic, and perhaps a list of informal fallacies to avoid, it isn't clear what other principles #2 refers to. There really is no comprehensive guide to "the principles of sound reason" (if there was, we could make a computer that could reason soundly). As for #3, depending on the flavor of libertarianism you might wish to defend, there are plenty of difficult issues with that position (just like with every position in metaphysics). But saying that without libertarianism there is no such thing as a person to argue with is just sort of specious and silly. And as for #4, it's just patently false. Even for a complete moral relativist (I'm not one by the way) there is obviously plenty of reason to argue about morality and everything else besides! Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this sort of fortune-cookie philosophy serves only to over-simplify these age-old problems and coddle people into thinking that one's own particular take on them are obvious and correct. They're not. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 10, 2013
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OT: Biomimicry: Researchers develop metamaterials able to control spread of light - May 10, 2013 Excerpt: The new metamaterials developed by the team are based on spin optics where photon helicity degeneracy is prevented due to the geometric gradient that exists on their surface. They are also anisotropic—they don't behave the same way when measured from different directions. Also, unlike current technology, they are polarization-dependent. Together these features cause light waves to propagate in ways not typically seen in current communications equipment. In addition, because of their polarization dependence, design engineers can create new devices that allow for a novel way to control communication devices—by the selection of the polarization of light at the outset. The researchers also report the new materials don't show inversion symmetry on their surface.,,, The new materials were inspired by metallic nanoantennae found in nature, the team reports. http://phys.org/news/2013-05-metamaterials.htmlbornagain77
May 10, 2013
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLdl_yMTOMMAxel
May 9, 2013
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Phil, that Eben Alexander whose NDE you linked to, is interviewed at length on the link below, and towards the end of it, is very withering in his criticism of the utter primitiveness, indeed total vacuity, of the mechanistic paradigm of the last century - still of course dearly cherished by the Consensus - as regards our understanding of the mind, obviously limited though it is today, and will surely largely continue to be.Axel
May 9, 2013
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By 'Testing is studying a 4-dimensional object', I mean, 'looking at how something APPEARS'. Isn't everything that isn't a representation, a 4-dimensional object, for that matter?Axel
May 9, 2013
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Testing is studying a 4-dimensional object, isn't it? which means my #9 has no relevance to your #7, andy; in case you thought I was addressing it.Axel
May 9, 2013
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Isn't how things look crucial to our daily existence, never mind EMPIRICAL science - which is utterly pedantic about it, the 'looking' being via our eye-sight, measurement and testing. Why have you all given Dawkins a free pass on this? Dawkins seems to have be taken a leaf out of Grouch Marx's book, and asking, 'Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?' If I'm wrong, would somebody be kind enough to explain to me how, because it strikes me that, if I'm right, letting these characters get away with such fundamental boo-boos (remember him trying to describe nothing?), is offering yourselves as target practice? If it looks in a million ways as if it's been designed, scientists look upon that as a boon. I was going to say a 'godsend', but that would disqualify the empirical observation from any kind of connection with, yes.... empirical.... science, wouldn't it? NOT!!!!!!!Axel
May 9, 2013
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Now om wants to know:
But your claim would have more weight if you could explain specifically how you determined that “blind and undirected processess” cannot account for the cell.
The total lack of evidence for it in peer-reviewed literature. Ya see om, science requires positive evidence and your position doesn't have any.
Can you think of a test that would determine if evolution was guided or unguided Joe?
Can you? ya see you say it has already been determined that evolution is unguided but yet cannot say why. keiths choked on that and apparently he likes it so much he wants more. Strange, that. My apologies Andy...Joe
May 9, 2013
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scordova, that's a great point (comment 1). Joe, that's another great point. These guys are too pumped up and furious to see their own hypocrisy here. Larry is arguing 'looks like a broken gene' means 'is a broken gene' and he continues to insist on doing so *despite* the fact that we now have a design-based explanation for why there should be 'false genes' whose sequences correspond very closely to real genes: to regulate the real genes. He totally ignored this. Meanwhile, no one has ever demonstrated natural selection doing anything that could really be mistaken for design.andyjones
May 9, 2013
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Great, because Andy said:
Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around.
It has been taken by ID haters to mean that we are saying it looks designed means it is designed. If something looks designed we have every right to check into that possibility. And if blind and undirected processes cannot account for it, we then infer it was designed. ID haters are such clueless dolts...Joe
May 9, 2013
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Martin, Nice to hear from you. I've put your latest in the queue of things I should post on. Thanks for alerting me. Salscordova
May 9, 2013
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WJM via Ba77,
"If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place."
That's a keeper. William J. has a habit of making succinct, illuminating statements like that one.Chance Ratcliff
May 9, 2013
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If Dr. Moran truly wants to educate should not he base his education on a philosophy that does not dissolve into epistemological failure? “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray Do the New Atheists Own the Market on Reason? - On the terms of the New Atheists, the very concept of rationality becomes nonsensical - By R. Scott Smith, May 03, 2012 Excerpt: If atheistic evolution by NS were true, we'd be in a beginningless series of interpretations, without any knowledge. Yet, we do know many things. So, naturalism & atheistic evolution by NS are false -- non-physical essences exist. But, what's their best explanation? Being non-physical, it can't be evolution by NS. Plus, we use our experiences, form concepts and beliefs, and even modify or reject them. Yet, if we're just physical beings, how could we interact with and use these non-physical things? Perhaps we have non-physical souls too. In all, it seems likely the best explanation for these non-physical things is that there exists a Creator after all. http://www.patheos.com/Evangelical/Atheists-Own-the-Market-on-Reason-Scott-Smith-05-04-2012?offset=1&max=1 “One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) Alvin Plantinga - Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r34AIo-xBh8 Why No One (Can) Believe Atheism/Naturalism to be True - video Excerpt: "Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998bornagain77
May 9, 2013
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Hi guys. Sal, last time you advertised my blog here on UD you asked me about polymorphic mimicry. I wrote a new post. Not exactly about polymorphic mimicry but still a strong critique of natural selection as the source of butterfly mimicry. See:Butterfly mimicry rings - a case of natural selection? http://cadra.wordpress.com/ Let me know if you find it interesting. Or write me. I have an email on my site. Thank you. Martinmcadra
May 9, 2013
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