Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

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Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
RDF: You are willfully ignoring an answer that engages, from ground up the underlying issues of the first principles of right reason [specifically, the identity cluster that pivots on dichotomy that identifies {A | NOT_A} as a function of not only thought but also reality of things, and a form of the principle of sufficient reason that if something is it may be inquired as to why it is so, with causality as a corollary (and the possibility and actuality of necessity of being discussed); which, ostensibly, is what you are speaking of. And the context is not a bit of "rhetoric" it is a plain vanilla, straight up the middle didactic exposition on a pivotal worldview foundations issue. That in response, you are more concerned on rhetorical style than substance is already telling us a lot. And, again, you have wasted far more time in evasions than it would have taken to simply read and then ponder long enough to understand why the summary is sound. In short, on the track record of the past few days, you are continuing to find excuses to avoid engaging serious issues seriously. KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2013
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Hi RD,
Come on, that’s not possible! Fine, here’s my “argument” for the above proposition: “Dude! Sex is awesome, and it’s even better when you’re high on drugs and listening to heavy metal! Talk about happiness!”
That isn’t really an argument. At best it could be described a report from one person who may or may not be typical and may or may not know the difference between temporary pleasure and lasting happiness. A rational argument could take several forms: It might define human nature (as opposed to animal nature), define happiness (perhaps in terms of overall well being), define the purpose of sex (perhaps to procreate or to create intimacy between husband and wife or orient the society around the family), relate it to the human condition (perhaps indicating why are we here), and show why using sex in the proper context would lead to happiness while abusing it would lead to unhappiness. (The argument would be that happiness is behaving according to our human nature) Or, it might begin by assuming the opposite; that there is no such thing as human nature, that happiness can be defined solely as pleasure, that sex has no purpose other than pleasure, and that there is no way to abuse it, at which time, your above statement could be inserted as the conclusion. (The argument would be that happiness is behaving according to our animal nature). Or, it might be an empirical argument: Five hundred heavy-metal oriented, pot smoking (the drug would have to be specified) sex-crazed (how often and under what conditions) people were interviewed at the age of twenty and again at the age of fifty. At twenty, they described themselves as [a] very happy, [b] moderately happy, [c] moderately unhappy, or [d] miserable. At fifty, they again submitted to the same interview. The final results were as follows…….. All those arguments and each of their parts could be evaluated for reasonableness. All the assumptions could be evaluated as well. SB: “In the absence of reason’s rules, how would you know if something was unreasonable?”
Well, maybe you don’t have much experience with people who turn to sex and drugs for long term happiness, but once you understand human beings and what makes them happy in the long term, you would know it is not reasonable to think that long-term happiness results from these sorts of activities.
Bravo. That’s exactly right. So, which of reason’s rules play into that very reasonable conclusion that you just arrived at? I will give you just three (there are more) [a] The Law of Causality—Behavior has consequences. Sew and Act, reap a habit; sew a habit, reap a character; sew a character, reap a destiny. [b] The Law of inductive logic-- we can draw inferences about the general population given a large enough sample size. [c] Law of Identity—a thing cannot be what it is and also be what it is not (A human cannot act like an animal and be happy) If your conclusion challenged either [a], [b], or [c], it would be unreasonable. SB: “The Law of Causality is a rule of reason. It refers to the self-evident truth that nothing can begin to exist without a cause. I would assume that you agree.”
Sorry, no, I don’t think it is self-evident. Logical truths are self-evident, but this is not a logical truth.
I would say that both the principle of sufficient reason and The Law of Causality are both self evident. Keep in mind that the Law of Causality is the reciprocal of the Law of Identity (ontological) and the Law of Non-Contradiction (logical and psychological).
We believe in causality on the basis of induction, not logical necessity.
This is a common misconception for which we can thank David Hume. I once asked a Humean if it was possible for a cement brick wall to appear suddenly in front of his moving automobile if nothing or no one put it there.. He said that we have never experienced any such event, but he refused to admit that it is impossible in principle. In other words, he allowed for the possibility that he might be driving down the highway one day at sixty miles an hour and a brick wall will suddenly appear from out of nowhere and for no reason. I say that this is irrational. We need no experience to know that such an event simply cannot happen.
And in situations where our intuitions and experience do not apply – such as the beginning of the universe or quantum phenomena – we really don’t know if causality works the way it works within the realm of our experience.
To deny Law of Causality is also to deny the Law of Non-Contradiction; each is inextricably tied to the other. If a thing can come to exist without a cause, then it caused itself to come into existence, which is ridiculous. In order to be its own cause, it would have had to exist before it existed, violating the Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction.
Your defense is to say that God caused us and our will to exist in the first place. But you’re just changing the subject! I’m not asking about how we came to exist, I’m asking about how our contra-causal will (however we ended up with it) can be reconciled with the Law of Causality.
I am not clear on what you mean by a contra-causal will or why it should be a problem for the Law of Causality. Clearly, man can contradict God’s will with his own will and it happens every day. God causes the man’s faculty of free will to exist and man uses this faculty to choose either good or evil. I am not getting the objection.
Are you perhaps saying that it is actually God who is making that decision for you?
Oh, no. That would be the end of free will.StephenB
May 16, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
OK, feel free to argue whichever side you like, just don’t assume the law of non contradiction in doing so.
Again, and I'm not sure I can make this any clearer than I already have, we all assume the law of non-contradiction when we make arguments. So what? That doesn't mean logic can tell us which of our statements are reasonable!
I’m going to argue that it is absurd to argue otherwise if we throw out the law of non contradiction.
And again, this is really boring. Next we can try solipsism and ask what's the use of talking, since there's nobody there to listen. And then we can take another toke and wonder if the whole universe is like an atom in the button on somebody's shirt... ;-) Read what I said, Phinehas. Nobody is talking about "throwing out" the LNC.
RDF: Also, you believe that “free will” and “objective morality” are part of “reason’s rules”? PHINEHAS: Clearly not. But I believe they were part of WMJ’s aphorisms which is why I said, “per WJM’s aphorisms,” right there in the part you quoted.
Oh, sorry. I got it.
Huh? WJM basically said that, without the law of non contradiction, arguing becomes absurd, and now when I try to demonstrate the truth of this by abandoning the law of non contradiction, I must do so without devolving into absurdity? Well, you’ve certainly got an interesting way of ensuring you don’t lose any arguments.
We're talking past each other badly. I'll try really hard this time: WJM and StephenB argue that one can look at any particular proposition and decide if whether or not it is reasonable by appying a set of objective rules. I pointed out this is ridiculous, and gave examples of unreasonable propositions that did not violate any of these rules. This demonstrates that objective rules are not adequate for testing natural language propositions for reasonableness. These rules can merely detect errors in logic, but logic does not even begin to capture the complexity of these issues we discuss.
No, it is not moot. Just because you can build an infinite number of things on an island doesn’t mean that yanking the island out from beneath the structure won’t cause it to collapse. If you take away the law of non contradiction, arguments become absurd.
Yes, of course, nobody is arguing otherwise! But read how StephenB and WJM have phrased their statements! They are not saying these rules are necessary for testing assertions - they are saying these rules are sufficient for doing so! But not only are they not sufficient, they aren't even remotely close. Logic doesn't begin to capture the meaning of our sentences, and so we cannot possibly test the reasonableness of what we say by applying these rules. And one more time: If we could actually test the reasonableness of propositions in natural language by applying objective rules, then we could program computers to do this. We cannot program computers to test the reasonableness of natural language propositions (at least at nothing approaching human competence). Therefore we cannot test propositions for reasonableness by application of objective rules. QED. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 16, 2013
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Hi KF,
RDF, you were given a link that lays out a summary on the first principles of right reason, in a worldview foundation context. Twice over you found excuses to run off on tangents and dismissals (in so doing wasting far more time than it would have taken you to simply read what you derided as a screed). That tells me all I need to know. Sadly, not to your credit. PS: If you were serious enough to simply Google, you would learn something worth learning about both Royce and Trueblood, who I cited by way of acknowledging intellectual debts. In this case, huge ones.
Well, it doesn't seem to me that you and I are well matched in our... rhetorical styles. You have engaged precisely none of the points I made to you, and instead you demand that I read your blog and your chosen authors, and then you get huffy when I decline. I mean no offense, and if you'd actually care to engage me on some issues, then by all means let's talk. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy your blogging - it seems everybody's doing it, right? :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 16, 2013
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RDF, you were given a link that lays out a summary on the first principles of right reason, in a worldview foundation context. Twice over you found excuses to run off on tangents and dismissals (in so doing wasting far more time than it would have taken you to simply read what you derided as a screed). That tells me all I need to know. Sadly, not to your credit. KF PS: If you were serious enough to simply Google, you would learn something worth learning about both Royce and Trueblood, who I cited by way of acknowledging intellectual debts. In this case, huge ones.kairosfocus
May 16, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
If Hobbes’ morality is person centered, and I agree that it is, then it bears little resemblance to the classical notion THE objective natural law, which is related to man’s ultimate purpose and what is good for him. The person cannot decide the purpose for which he was made or what is good for his nature. If man has no purpose, and there is no such thing as the “good,” as Hobbes believed, then any conception of a moral law must logically be subjective, arbitrary, and artificial–and at variance with the natural moral law.
Yes I agree with you. Hobbes is quite extreme, really, in how he derives moral law from self-interest - (he's a precursor to Ayn Rand, whose philosophy I despise). But many others feel - as I do - that moral law can't be verified the way physical law can. The way I put this is that moral law is not objectively true or false, but rather it is intersubjectively true or false. Intersubjectivity doesn't just mean that everybody makes up their own view; it refers to shared meaning and reasoning among all people that derive from our shared nature. What we call common sense is also intersubjective knowledge that all people share, and accounts for the vast majority of our reasoning.
The objective natural moral law arbitrates between conflicting subjective notions of arbitrary law. If natural law is thought to be subjective, that is, if each group can write its own social contract, then there is no objective source to arbitrate between the conflicts when they occur, which leads to the tyranny of might makes right.
Yeah, this happens sometimes. I will go out on a limb here and guess the way you feel morality is made objective is by grounding it one way or another in divine commandments, and I'm also guessing you know the problems there, and that you have responses to those issues, and so on... I'll just say I'm not convinced that anybody has figured out a way to say their own particular interpretation of their own particular conception of God's conception of morality is objectively true.
Agent Causal Libertarianism is the name given to the view that free will is not compatible with materialism or compatibilism. That is why it was given that name–to distinguish it from other forms of agent causalism that some believe can be reconciled with those other views. You will not find anyone who calls himself an agent causal libertarian by name that is sympathetic to compatibilism or materialism. The term itself was designed to rule out compatibilism and determinism, and no one would describe themselves as an ACL if they didn’t agree with that proposition.
Ok, I'll take your word for that. In any event, I don't think materialism is well defined, so obviously I'm not a materialist. I don't think we understand causality very well, since physics indicates that locality and realism (or at the very least their conjunction) are false. And I don't understand how truly contra-causal volition can differ from mere indeterminism, which nobody wants.
Reason’s rules do not cover all claims or statements.
Yes, thank you! My point is that they do not cover any of them except trivial propositions.
Primarily, they cover the arguments that support those claims. Provide the argument for the above proposition, and I will evaluate it using reason’s rules.
Come on, that's not possible! Fine, here's my "argument" for the above proposition: "Dude! Sex is awesome, and it's even better when you're high on drugs and listening to heavy metal! Talk about happiness!" Ok, how might you show this is an unreasonable position by using reason's rules?!
How would you know if it was unreasonable?
Well, maybe you don't have much experience with people who turn to sex and drugs for long term happiness, but once you understand human beings and what makes them happy in the long term, you would know it is not reasonable to think that long-term happiness results from these sorts of activities.
The Law of Causality is a rule of reason. It refers to the self-evident truth that nothing can begin to exist without a cause. I would assume that you agree.
Sorry, no, I don't think it is self-evident. Logical truths are self-evident, but this is not a logical truth.
Self-evident principles cannot be demonstrated.
Yes, the Law of Causality cannot be demonstrated, but neither is it self-evident, like logical truths are. We believe in causality on the basis of induction, not logical necessity. And in situations where our intuitions and experience do not apply - such as the beginning of the universe or quantum phenomena - we really don't know if causality works the way it works within the realm of our experience.
Some of my thoughts come from me and some can come from outside sources. I (the self) make choices (cause them) through the power of my faculties of intellect and will. Naturally, those powers did not come into existence without a cause. God caused them to come into existence when He created them. God was not caused (and did not come into existence) having always existed. Thus, the Law of Causality remains intact.
I don't think that's a very good analysis. You are sitting in Benjamin Libet's laboratory, ready to exercise your libertarian free will in his experiment. You decide to press the button at... THIS particular moment, for no reason except that YOU CHOSE that moment. Your contra-causal will acted without any antecedent cause at all, because that is what you mean by "libertarian". This contradicts your own commitment to the Law of Causality. Your defense is to say that God caused us and our will to exist in the first place. But you're just changing the subject! I'm not asking about how we came to exist, I'm asking about how our contra-causal will (however we ended up with it) can be reconciled with the Law of Causality. Are you perhaps saying that it is actually God who is making that decision for you? This would solve the problem (and I do believe some denominations do opt for this solution, right)? If that is what you believe, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that humans lack free will entirely, but God (and only God) has truly libertarian will? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 16, 2013
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Even if the Law of Causality was false and certain things (such as the origin of the universe) occurred without antecendent cause, the proposition would still be unreasonable! The statement is unreasonable because, knowing what we know of human beings, it isn’t reasonable to think that our happiness can be best sustained by these things.
OK, feel free to argue whichever side you like, just don't assume the law of non contradiction in doing so. Now, setting aside the law of non contradiction, I find your argument absurd. Arguing that the statement is unreasonable does nothing to demonstrate that the statement isn't perfectly reasonable. Arguing that our happiness cannot be best sustained by these things doesn't deny that our happiness can, in fact, be best sustained by these things. Clearly, even if what you've said is true, the original statement may be perfectly reasonable and happiness can be best sustained by using drugs, sex, and rock and roll.
I’m confused: Are you going to argue that this proposition is in fact reasonable?
I'm going to argue that it is absurd to argue otherwise if we throw out the law of non contradiction.
Also, you believe that “free will” and “objective morality” are part of “reason’s rules”?
Clearly not. But I believe they were part of WMJ's aphorisms which is why I said, "per WJM's aphorisms," right there in the part you quoted.
I hope you don’t just try to say that without these rules we can all be as absurd as we want to and then we can’t communicate...
Huh? WJM basically said that, without the law of non contradiction, arguing becomes absurd, and now when I try to demonstrate the truth of this by abandoning the law of non contradiction, I must do so without devolving into absurdity? Well, you've certainly got an interesting way of ensuring you don't lose any arguments. :)
But to point out that all of our reasoning depends on it is for the most part simply moot, because we determine reasonableness based on so many other factors that can not be evaluated according to objective rules.
No, it is not moot. Just because you can build an infinite number of things on an island doesn't mean that yanking the island out from beneath the structure won't cause it to collapse. If you take away the law of non contradiction, arguments become absurd.
...because that would be an obvious and boring point.
I don't know about boring, but since you were the one who set up being obvious as the standard for evaluating the original WJM quote, it hardly seems fair that you would now require its absence.Phinehas
May 16, 2013
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Hi KF,
In light of your dismissive remarks and refusal to take a few moments to look at what condenses literally years of serious investigation and analysis, that sounds just a tad unconsciously ironic.
What are you talking about? If you're talking about issues like free will and morality, I dare say there have been more than "literally years of serious investigation and analysis" on these matters... there have been millenia's worth! And who is being dismissive here? On the contrary, my position is that we ought not to pretend we have objective rules with which we can summarily dismiss opinions we disagree with!
Perhaps, it will help you to learn what is highlighted as warranted credible truth no 1: Error exists, cf. Josiah Royce and Elton Trueblood.
I'm not familiar with these people, sorry.
Turns out to be undeniably true and warranted as so on pain of self-referential absurdity on attempted denial. It means, truth as that which accurately describes reality is a non-empty category. It further means that knwledge as warranted, credibly true belief is also a non-empty category, and in this case warranted to undeniable certainty.
I'm having a little trouble with your sentences here, but what I think you are saying is that knowledge is possible. If so, we agree.
Systems that deny the possibility of certain or highly confident and well warranted knowledge of truth, are thereby falsified. At he same time the pivotal truth is a humbling one, as it means that we may be wrong.
Yes, it appears we are in complete agreement here. What I was emphasizing is that certain questions have been debated for millenia by smart people without even approaching consensus, and so we shouldn't think our answers to those questions are certain. Sometimes it's best to say "I do not know", which is a perfectly good and very valuable opinion to hold. I hold that opinion, for example, on questions of metaphysical ontology.
This underscores the significance of the first principles of right reason, as means of testing ourselves for error.
Again, what I've been trying to explain is that these "principles of right reason" can only test our propositions for certain relatively obvious errors, but the hard part - figuring out if we are actually correct or not! - can't be accomplished merely by testing with these rules.
Which shows the hollowness of your projected — and by the way, self referentially incoherent — suspicion:
Huh?
On objective reason, adequate warrant has been given to show the error.
Sorry, what? I'm trying to figure out what you are saying here but I don't get it. I think we agreed that it is possible to justify our beliefs such that we consider them to be knowledge, although there is always the chance we are wrong. You seem to think we can test our knowledge by using these rules, but I quite disagree on that. Where exactly have you shown me to be "hollow" (wrong?)?
The self referentiality is evident from a question: are you SURE of that, and are you sure you are obviously correct and see those who differ on this matter as obviously unreasonable and incorrect?
Now it seems you're doing that thing, like WJM, where you say if nothing is objectively certain, you can just go and say anything and it doesn't matter. Sorry, but I think that's kind of a childish argument. You said yourself our knowledge may be "highly confident" without being objectively certain, right? That doesn't mean that nobody can have justified beliefs in things!
As to objectivity of morality, you are again self-referential appealing to a binding, universal sense of duty to fairness in a context that on the surface would deny such.
StephenB here suggested that moral laws are objective in the same way physical laws are. I think that is evidently false, and that moral laws are nowhere near as objective as physical laws are. Do you agree?
As well, we can ask: do you regard it as not objectively plain that to kidnap and chain up three women for a decade, using them as sexual slaves and battering them is wrong?
It really could not be more plain that these acts were wrong, and I have never actually met any human being who would disagree! Have you? It goes against every aspect of our moral nature to even contemplate such a thing, in my opinion.
If not, kindly explain your view on the sad recent events.
Good grief, it's just horrible. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 16, 2013
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RDFish
Regarding Hobbes, I’d say you’re mistaken, as I believe he derived morality from natural self interest, a clearly subjective foundation. A quick search revealed some good explanations:
You can certainly make a case that Hobbes’ version is subjective insofar as it is not really derived from nature, that is, you could say that it is objective only in the sense that each person doesn’t make it up for himself individually, which means that, ultimately, it is subjective in the most fundamental sense—it doesn’t really come from nature. In that context, I would agree with you. However, we cannot have it both ways. If Hobbes’ morality is person centered, and I agree that it is, then it bears little resemblance to the classical notion THE objective natural law, which is related to man’s ultimate purpose and what is good for him. The person cannot decide the purpose for which he was made or what is good for his nature. If man has no purpose, and there is no such thing as the “good,” as Hobbes believed, then any conception of a moral law must logically be subjective, arbitrary, and artificial--and at variance with the natural moral law. The objective natural moral law arbitrates between conflicting subjective notions of arbitrary law. If natural law is thought to be subjective, that is, if each group can write its own social contract, then there is no objective source to arbitrate between the conflicts when they occur, which leads to the tyranny of might makes right.
And regarding there being no compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism, I think you’re probably wrong about that too (there is probably some philosopher who argues just about anything!). In any event I don’t see your point: If you are simply desperate to prove me wrong about something, you’ll need to contradict an actual claim that I myself made!
Agent Causal Libertarianism is the name given to the view that free will is not compatible with materialism or compatibilism. That is why it was given that name--to distinguish it from other forms of agent causalism that some believe can be reconciled with those other views. You will not find anyone who calls himself an agent causal libertarian by name that is sympathetic to compatibilism or materialism. The term itself was designed to rule out compatibilism and determinism, and no one would describe themselves as an ACL if they didn’t agree with that proposition.
In order to find lasting happiness, people ought to spend more time taking recreational drugs, having casual sex, and listening to rock and roll music. Can you use “reason’s rules” to determine the reasonableness of this proposition? Of course you can’t! And so we see your hope that we can use objective rules to determine reasonableness is shown to be false.
Reason’s rules do not cover all claims or statements. Primarily, they cover the arguments that support those claims. Provide the argument for the above proposition, and I will evaluate it using reason’s rules.
Any statement that does not violate those rules [reason’s] may also be unreasonable!!
How would you know if it was unreasonable? SB: "A good example would be the Law of Causality. Anyone who denies it is unreasonable. Do you deny the Law of Causality as one of reason’s rules?"
Hahaha I love how you asked that question! “Anyone who denies X is a complete moron! Do you deny X?”
I thought that you might have fun with that formulation.
The “Law of Causality” is not a principle of logic, nor it is a demonstrable principle of empirical science; rather, it is the philosophical position that every change in nature is produced by some antecedent cause.
The Law of Causality is a rule of reason. It refers to the self-evident truth that nothing can begin to exist without a cause. I would assume that you agree. Self-evident principles cannot be demonstrated. We do not reason our way TO them; we reason our way FROM them. They are the basic starting point, which is why they cannot be demonstrated. To demonstrate a point, you must appeal to something more fundamental than the thing being demonstrated.
Now I will ask you: In your metaphysical libertarian worldview, what is it that causes each of our thoughts? And if you answer that it is our libertarian will, which itself makes choices that are uncaused, how might that reconcile with the Law of Causality?
I tip my hat to you. That is a very good question. Some of my thoughts come from me and some can come from outside sources. I (the self) make choices (cause them) through the power of my faculties of intellect and will. Naturally, those powers did not come into existence without a cause. God caused them to come into existence when He created them. God was not caused (and did not come into existence) having always existed. Thus, the Law of Causality remains intact.StephenB
May 16, 2013
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RDF:
we each have to do our best to listen to opposing views and not be overly confident that our answers to difficult questions are right.
In light of your dismissive remarks and refusal to take a few moments to look at what condenses literally years of serious investigation and analysis, that sounds just a tad unconsciously ironic. Perhaps, it will help you to learn what is highlighted as warranted credible truth no 1: Error exists, cf. Josiah Royce and Elton Trueblood. Turns out to be undeniably true and warranted as so on pain of self-referential absurdity on attempted denial. It means, truth as that which accurately describes reality is a non-empty category. It further means that knwledge as warranted, credibly true belief is also a non-empty category, and in this case warranted to undeniable certainty. Systems that deny the possibility of certain or highly confident and well warranted knowledge of truth, are thereby falsified. At he same time the pivotal truth is a humbling one, as it means that we may be wrong. This underscores the significance of the first principles of right reason, as means of testing ourselves for error. Which shows the hollowness of your projected -- and by the way, self referentially incoherent -- suspicion:
the concepts of objective rules of reason and objective morality are dangerous, because it leads people to think that whatever answer they might come up with is obviously correct, and that makes whoever disagrees with them unreasonable and objectively wrong and thus unworthy of respect.
On objective reason, adequate warrant has been given to show the error. The self referentiality is evident from a question: are you SURE of that, and are you sure you are obviously correct and see those who differ on this matter as obviously unreasonable and incorrect? As to objectivity of morality, you are again self-referential appealing to a binding, universal sense of duty to fairness in a context that on the surface would deny such. As well, we can ask: do you regard it as not objectively plain that to kidnap and chain up three women for a decade, using them as sexual slaves and battering them is wrong? If not, kindly explain your view on the sad recent events. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
You really do like to argue, don’t you?
Well yes I do, Phinehas, but not just for it's own sake. Here is why I think the topic is serious: In my view, truth and goodness are often complex and messy affairs, and we each have to do our best to listen to opposing views and not be overly confident that our answers to difficult questions are right. In other words, the concepts of objective rules of reason and objective morality are dangerous, because it leads people to think that whatever answer they might come up with is obviously correct, and that makes whoever disagrees with them unreasonable and objectively wrong and thus unworthy of respect. We all think we are correct (I certainly do) when we argue, but when it comes to difficult issues like libertarian will, morality, origins, politics, God, and so on, that good and smart people have argued about for millenia, I choose to respect good arguments made on all sides.
But I try not to argue against points other people are not making. The point isn’t that you can use reason’s rules to determine the reasonableness of any proposition. The point is that if you throw away/ignore/reject/deny reason’s rules, you CANNOT determine the reasonableness of any proposition.
I understand your distinction, but you're still wrong I'm afraid. I can determine that the example proposition (regarding sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll being the best path to lasting happiness) is unreasonable without any reference to the Law of Causality, Non-contradiction, etc. Honestly, how often do you hear anyone referencing these things when they argue? Even if the Law of Causality was false and certain things (such as the origin of the universe) occurred without antecendent cause, the proposition would still be unreasonable! The statement is unreasonable because, knowing what we know of human beings, it isn't reasonable to think that our happiness can be best sustained by these things.
If this is not obvious, then please go ahead and demonstrate to me the reasonable nature of your proposition from above. Argue the following to the best of your ability!
Actually, I just argued the opposite! I determined that the proposition was unreasonable without referencing any such rules.
Note that, per WJM’s aphorisms, I’ll be playing the part of someone who denies the law of non-contradiction, reason’s rules, objective morality, and free will. But don’t let that dissuade you!
I'm confused: Are you going to argue that this proposition is in fact reasonable? Also, you believe that "free will" and "objective morality" are part of "reason's rules"? Perhaps I need to see of these "reason's rules" - exactly how many are there? In any event, yes that proposition is still clearly unreasonable even if there is no objective morality and no free will. (And in fact, as I tried to point to Stephen, The Law of Causality is arguably in conflict with libertarianism, as the latter is also refered to as contra-causal free will). I hope you don't just try to say that without these rules we can all be as absurd as we want to and then we can't communicate, because that would be an obvious and boring point. As when WJM tried that upthread, it's just a way to worm out of arguments with people who try to make you think about things. If someone actually does say something weird like "Obama is the PotUS and Obama is not the PoTUS", then you can definitely bring up the LNC to good effect. But to point out that all of our reasoning depends on it is for the most part simply moot, because we determine reasonableness based on so many other factors that can not be evaluated according to objective rules. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 16, 2013
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RDF: Pardon me but if you had taken time to look instead of tagging and dismissing, you would have in fact seen a discussion of where we get the core principles of right reason from, in a context of grounding worldviews. I believe something like about three minutes would have sufficed, which I suspect is rather shorter than the time you took to write your dismissive post. FYI. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2013
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Hey RDFish:
"In order to find lasting happiness, people ought to spend more time taking recreational drugs, having casual sex, and listening to rock and roll music." Can you use “reason’s rules” to determine the reasonableness of this proposition? Of course you can’t!
Hehe. You really do like to argue, don't you? Me too. But I try not to argue against points other people are not making. The point isn't that you can use reason's rules to determine the reasonableness of any proposition. The point is that if you throw away/ignore/reject/deny reason's rules, you CANNOT determine the reasonableness of any proposition. If this is not obvious, then please go ahead and demonstrate to me the reasonable nature of your proposition from above. Argue the following to the best of your ability!
"In order to find lasting happiness, people ought to spend more time taking recreational drugs, having casual sex, and listening to rock and roll music.”
Note that, per WJM's aphorisms, I'll be playing the part of someone who denies the law of non-contradiction, reason's rules, objective morality, and free will. But don't let that dissuade you! Let the argument begin!Phinehas
May 16, 2013
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Hi StephenB, Regarding Hobbes, I'd say you're mistaken, as I believe he derived morality from natural self interest, a clearly subjective foundation. A quick search revealed some good explanations: http://definitionofphilosophy.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-basis-of-morality-in-kant-and-hobbes.html
Will to Hobbes is just the last desire you have before you take action on it -- hence free will is an absurdity. All motivation is selfish, and ultimately tied to survival. The basic negative emotion is fear, the basic positive emotion is desire for power. Good and bad are purely subjective matters. And so he goes beyond Descartes: Not only are animals just machines, so are we. B. F. Skinner was an admirer of Hobbes.
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/empvsrat.html And regarding there being no compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism, I think you're probably wrong about that too (there is probably some philosopher who argues just about anything!). In any event I don't see your point: If you are simply desperate to prove me wrong about something, you'll need to contradict an actual claim that I myself made! Rather than argue about what other people think, let's argue the subject ourselves! You (like WJM and some other people here apparently) seem very committed to the idea that we can enjoy great moral certainty by taking our objective morality and reasoning about it using our objective rules of reason. I disagree, but on the latter point, I think you are very confused:
With respect to your questions, reason’s rules determine reasonableness.
I'm afraid this is absurd. If you were correct, you could take the following propostion and determine if it was reasonable or not by applying "reason's rules".
In order to find lasting happiness, people ought to spend more time taking recreational drugs, having casual sex, and listening to rock and roll music.
Can you use "reason's rules" to determine the reasonableness of this proposition? Of course you can't! And so we see your hope that we can use objective rules to determine reasonableness is shown to be false.
Any statement that violates those rules is unreasonable.
Yes but the problem is this of course: Any statement that does not violate those rules may also be unreasonable!! In fact it is not particularly common in our everyday reasoning that we come across violations of these fundamental rules. Vastly more important is our world knowledge and our beliefs about how human beings and societies function, and whether or not our beliefs are reasonable unfortunately cannot be determined by testing against these objective rules. You're just wrong about this.
A good example would be the Law of Causality. Anyone who denies it is unreasonable. Do you deny the Law of Causality as one of reason’s rules?
Hahaha I love how you asked that question! "Anyone who denies X is a complete moron! Do you deny X?" The "Law of Causality" is not a principle of logic, nor it is a demonstrable principle of empirical science; rather, it is the philosophical position that every change in nature is produced by some antecedent cause. I'll take the position, arguendo, that yes, every change in nature is produced by some antecedent cause. Now I will ask you: In your metaphysical libertarian worldview, what is it that causes each of our thoughts? And if you answer that it is our libertarian will, which itself makes choices that are uncaused, how might that reconcile with the Law of Causality?RDFish
May 16, 2013
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That should read [any] universal law that a human discovers and does not invent is objective.StephenB
May 16, 2013
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RDFish: You did not answer the first question, so I will answer it for you. There are no compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism. Your second answer was incorrect. Hobbes believed that the natural moral law was "discovered" through the use of reason. That makes it objective. With respect to your questions, reason's rules determine reasonableness. Any statement that violates those rules is unreasonable. A good example would be the Law of Causality. Anyone who denies it is unreasonable. Do you deny the Law of Causality as one of reason's rules? With respect to the natural moral law, there are perverted notions of it, like Hobbes' conception, but all of them are objective because they refer to "nature." Anything universal law that a human discovers and does not invent is objective.StephenB
May 16, 2013
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Hi StephenB, Regarding your "fairly precise" question that you would like answered: I said there were compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causality. I also pointed out that there were materialist versions of libertarianism. If you would like to find a materialist philosopher who describes agenty-causality as libertarian, I'm sure you can search as well I can. Regarding philosophers who regard natural moral law as being subjective, you can start with Hobbes. Now here are my precise questions for you: Have you recanted your view that "reason's rules" enable one to objectively assess if any given argument is reasonable? And have you recanted your view that natural moral law is as objective as natural physical law? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 14, 2013
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RDFish
I said there were compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causality, and you acknowledge that possibility. Now you ask if there are compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism, but I think you already know that libertarianism is construed by some as compatible with materialism by invoking physical indeterminism.
My question was fairly precise, so I would appreciate an answer that addresses it. Are there any compatibilist, materialist versions of agent-causal libertarianism?
Some philosophers think natural moral law is objective, and some don’t.
Which philosophers think that the natural moral law is not objective?StephenB
May 13, 2013
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Hi Eric,
This highlights the fact that there is a level of information beyond pure grammar. Semantics and pragmatics go beyond pure syntax and morphology (and, to some extent, also beyond the more closely-related individualized word vocabulary).
Yes indeed! (Actually, semantics and pragmatics extend fully beyond word sense disambiguation, if that is what you mean).
This does not mean that grammar (including vocabulary, which has often been regarded as part of grammar)...
Yes, it appears you are aware that there are many different linguistic theories, each with their different abstractions and hierarchies.
...cannot be used to make sense of what others say. It is of course an important part of regular communication and discourse.
That's right. I'll bet you also realize (as opposed to WJM here) that none of these systems has been successfully formalized, despite decades of concerted effort. And that is why computers can't understand natural language at anything approaching human comprehension. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 13, 2013
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WJM,
That grammar allows us to make sense out of a collective string of words used in a language doesn’t mean every string of grammatically correct words can be understood.
So I guess you are conceding that I was correct and you were mistaken about universally accepted standard grammars for language? And that grammatical rules (or any other type of rule) does not allow us to assess whether or not sentences make sense? That's great - I love progress!
Fortunately, since there are no formal rules of right reason I need (or even can) adhere to, I can simply deny the validty (if any) of what you wrote above, and assert the opposite with equal authority.
Haha! Ok, hope that works out for you! The rest of us can carry on without you, using our human powers of reason (that are not, fortunately, limited to mere formal logic) and discuss these interesting issues! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 13, 2013
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. . . sentences can simultaneously be grammatical and nonsensical . . .
This highlights the fact that there is a level of information beyond pure grammar. Semantics and pragmatics go beyond pure syntax and morphology (and, to some extent, also beyond the more closely-related individualized word vocabulary). This does not mean that grammar (including vocabulary, which has often been regarded as part of grammar) cannot be used to make sense of what others say. It is of course an important part of regular communication and discourse.Eric Anderson
May 13, 2013
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I’m sorry to break the news to you, William, but we human beings are stuck with our messy, informal, non-rule-based thinking, and we have to muddle through our lives and our debates using arguments that cannot be assessed against formal rules. There’s just no way around it.
Fortunately, since there are no formal rules of right reason I need (or even can) adhere to, I can simply deny the validty (if any) of what you wrote above, and assert the opposite with equal authority.William J Murray
May 13, 2013
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It was of course Noam Chomsky who most memorably drove home the point that grammar does not enable us to “make sense” out of what anyone else. Famously, he pointed out that sentences can simultaneously be grammatical and nonsensical, with the following example: Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
That grammar allows us to make sense out of a collective string of words used in a language doesn't mean every string of grammatically correct words can be understood.William J Murray
May 13, 2013
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In case there is still any confusion regarding the difference between "thought" and "reason", as WJM has defined them here, let me respond to one more point WJM has made in his last post:
Without an accepted standard of grammar, there is no hope of “making sense” out of what anyone says.
It was of course Noam Chomsky who most memorably drove home the point that grammar does not enable us to "make sense" out of what anyone else. Famously, he pointed out that sentences can simultaneously be grammatical and nonsensical, with the following example: Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 13, 2013
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Hi William J Murray, First, a brief synopsis of the discussion thus far: StephenB said that "reason's rules" (such as the LNC) enables one to objectively assess if any given argument is reasonable. I pointed out that this wasn't even close to being true, and (after accusing me of various rhetorical malfeasance) has given up on the discussion without defending his assertion. He also pressed me to take a stand on some issue regarding free will or morality, and so I explained why he was wrong to imagine that "natural moral law" could be thought of as "the moral counterpart to the laws of nature" in that they both were comprised of discoverable objective facts. He again chose not to defend his position. Subsequently, kairosfocus provided a link to a lengthy off-site screed on building a theistic worldview for me to read. I am grateful for the link, but before I invest the considerable time it would take to read it (and the others), I would ask for some indication that there is something there that would respond to the points I have made here in this thread. Now I will respond to your post, William.
While there may be a lot of thought going on in order to make determinations, whether or not that thought can be called “reasoning” depends on if one is employing the rules of right reason to construct a metric by which to reach a sound conclusion. Otherwise, the thought used to reach a conclusion is not called “reasoning”.
The words "thought" and "reason" have common usage that do not align specifically with what you've said here. However, you are of course free to provide technical definitions for the purpose of clarity in our discussion, and in fact I'm all for that, as I believe many of these sorts of discussions suffer greatly on account of insufficiently clear terminology. So for the purpose of our discussion, let's agree to say that "reasoning" refers to what others might call "formal reasoning" - a system of propositions that can be represented in a well-defined symbolic system and manipulated according to explicit rules, while "thought" refers to making judgements and inferences that can be articulated in natural language but not objectively assessed against a set of rules. The latter can still be critiqued against guidelines such as the informal fallacies that I'm sure we're all familiar with, but not against a system of formal rules. Is that what you have in mind?
There is no such thing as reasoning, much less correct reasoning or faulty reasoning, unless there are rules of reasoning that must be assumed to govern (not compel, but govern) all attempts at reasoning. Otherwise, you’re just “thnking” and “coming to conclusions” without any universal formal system.
Yes, this seems consistent with my understanding. We are using the word "reasoning" here to refer to formal systems, got it.
Without an assumed universal, binding formal system of proper reasoning, what are we left with? Whatever any individual happens to think is “reasonable”, by whatever means they happen to think is appropriate? What are our arguments based on, without any assumed valid, objective means of vetting arugments? Emotional appeal? Coercion? Rhetoric? Stuff that happens to sound reasonable to the other party by chance?
Well, I'm not quite as cynical as you are about our ability to think. I would say that the vast degree of scientific consensus, on innumerable facts, even across cultural and ideological divides, attests to our ability to make judgements and inferences reliably. But I will agree with you that there is a qualitative difference between thought and reason, as we've defined them here. Importantly, I think we should agree that the concept of "proof" applies only to the latter, and not the former (informal and legal usage of the word notwithstanding).
If that is your position, all you are doing is flinging feces around hoping it will stick somewhere. Unless, of course, you are saying that people come to all sorts of conclusions via thought, but very little of it based on reasoning.
Uh, ok. I think you are really taking an extreme position here. The vast majority of what human beings do in their lives is the result of our thinking rather than our reasoning (again, using these terms as we've defined them here). And certainly most of what is written on the pages of this forum is strictly the result of thinking rather than reason; I have not observed anyone trying to represent their arguments in a formal logic system here, and I'm obviously not doing that.
RDF: That is simply false; you’re just wrong about that. WJM: AS IF the LNC is assumed universally applicable in debates employing reasoned arguments. AS IF there is universally binding standard by which one can claim that some other statement is “wrong”.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that unless we limit ourselves to formal logic, we cannot make any judgments about the truth of propositions? If that is your position, obviously there is no use engaging in arguments with you unless we do so using formal logic. But even the decision to do so would need to based on considerations outside of any logical system, so I'm afraid if you deny the validity of thought, as you seem to be doing, we simply have nothing to talk about!
Only if one stretches the meaning of “materialism” to the point of meaninglessness and conflates an “indeterminate outcome” with “agent-causality” and “libertarian free will”.
You seem to have quickly changed subjects here - we were talking about thought and reason a second ago. Anyway, my statement was 100% accurate: There are most certaintly compatibilist philosophers who provide technical definitions such as this. If you had read my posts carefully, you would see that I am not among them.
Nobody is claiming the rules of right reason “account” for what humans think, but rather must be employed to arbit the soundness of any thought-ful argument towards a conclusion. Without an accepted standard of grammar, there is no hope of “making sense” out of what anyone says. That’s what grammer is for – generating a language one can make sense out of because it conforms to various standardized rules.
There is no formal grammar for natural language, which is what distinguishes a natural language from a formal language. There is no "universally accepted standard of grammar" for English, or French, or any other naturally evolved language that any culture speaks. There are only formal grammars for formal languages. I'm sorry to break the news to you, William, but we human beings are stuck with our messy, informal, non-rule-based thinking, and we have to muddle through our lives and our debates using arguments that cannot be assessed against formal rules. There's just no way around it. Perhaps that explains your penchant for fortune-cookie philosophy: It all seems so clear and cut-and-dried when you turn difficult conceptual discussions into slogans and sound bites. Unfortunately, there isn't any truth in them, as I pointed out with your quote that started this discussion. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 13, 2013
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William J. Murray, thank you for providing a sound and pithy thought stimulator. RDFish, thank you for engaging me in an interesting, if not rational, discussion.StephenB
May 13, 2013
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RDF, You are erroneously conflating "thought" with "reasoning". You say:
I said the rules account for little of our reasoning, not that any part of our reasoning is exempt from those rules. ...There is no set of rules by which anyone can determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable ... I am utterly certain that nobody understands how human beings reason (i.e. how we think), and I will say that is one of the least controversial statements I can imagine. I can defend it thus: If you (or anyone else) claims to understand how human beings reason, simply explain it!
While there may be a lot of thought going on in order to make determinations, whether or not that thought can be called "reasoning" depends on if one is employing the rules of right reason to construct a metric by which to reach a sound conclusion. Otherwise, the thought used to reach a conclusion is not called "reasoning". Even faulty reasoning is an attempt to apply the rules of right reason, inference, necessary principles and assumptions, etc. in a correct (by the rules) way. Just because one calls their thought process "reasoning" doesn't mean that is what they are doing. There is no such thing as reasoning, much less correct reasoning or faulty reasoning, unless there are rules of reasoning that must be assumed to govern (not compel, but govern) all attempts at reasoning. Otherwise, you're just "thnking" and "coming to conclusions" without any universal formal system. Without an assumed universal, binding formal system of proper reasoning, what are we left with? Whatever any individual happens to think is "reasonable", by whatever means they happen to think is appropriate? What are our arguments based on, without any assumed valid, objective means of vetting arugments? Emotional appeal? Coercion? Rhetoric? Stuff that happens to sound reasonable to the other party by chance? If that is your position, all you are doing is flinging feces around hoping it will stick somewhere. Unless, of course, you are saying that people come to all sorts of conclusions via thought, but very little of it based on reasoning. Here's an interesting claim, considering your argument in this thread:
That is simply false; you’re just wrong about that.
AS IF the LNC is assumed universally applicable in debates employing reasoned arguments. AS IF there is universally binding standard by which one can claim that some other statement is "wrong". Then we have this little gem:
I just got through explaining to you that both agent-causality and libertarianism can be and has been construed to be compatible with materialism.
Only if one stretches the meaning of "materialism" to the point of meaninglessness and conflates an "indeterminate outcome" with "agent-causality" and "libertarian free will".
But one can hardly say that these rules account for what is written in the document; one can’t use these rules to see if any particular sentence makes sense. Get it?
Nobody is claiming the rules of right reason "account" for what humans think, but rather must be employed to arbit the soundness of any thought-ful argument towards a conclusion. Without an accepted standard of grammar, there is no hope of "making sense" out of what anyone says. That's what grammer is for - generating a language one can make sense out of because it conforms to various standardized rules. StephenB: Thanks so much for your stellar defense of my "fortune-cookie aphorisms"!William J Murray
May 13, 2013
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PS: Notice the onward connexion to sufficient reason and causality here.kairosfocus
May 13, 2013
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RDF: Pardon an intervention. I think you need to recognise that in speaking of first principles of right reason or the like, we are not talking about theorems of Boolean Algebra or systems thereafter. We are talking about something these may well recognise, but do not necessarily exhaust. I suggest a look here on for a look at the matter, and here at UD in the WACs, for how this speaks to a major, commonly encountered problem with reasoning by materialist objectors to design theory and their fellow travellers. There was a recent discussion at UD, here. KFkairosfocus
May 13, 2013
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Hi StepenB,
What codifiable formal rules of thought? Please be specific.
Ok, here's how this topic got started: You first said this:
By refusing to acknowledge reason’s rules, you are also acknowledging that you have no standard by which you can determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable, including your own.
I responded by saying that "human reasoning was not largely rule-based." I think this is a clear statement which means that for the most part, our reasoning does not adhere to a set of rules. You didn't understand what I meant, so I clarified repeatedly. I'll try once again, making this as simple as I can: There is no set of rules by which anyone can determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable. There are rules of propositional logic, including the LNC and rules of inference such as modus ponens and modus tollens, and there are more complex formal logics too, but contrary to what you think, we cannot use these rules to determine whether or not any given argument is reasonable. I don't think I can make this point any clearer than I this.
Since you do not yet grasp the difference between foundational principles and processes even after I articulated the difference, I will abandon any hope of communicating that difference.
What??? Stephen, you were the one who suggested that we could use these rules of logic to test any given argument to see if it was reasonable. That is simply false; you're just wrong about that. I said it was interesting because at one time in history, people (including George Boole, who famously authored The Laws of Thought) did believe that much of human thought could be codified in formal logic, but it turned out that it isn't the case.
There you go again, equivocating between undefined libertarianism and well-defined agent-causal libertarianism, in an attempt to have it both ways.
What??? I just got through explaining to you that both agent-causality and libertarianism can be and has been construed to be compatible with materialism. Then I asked you to "articulate your definitive position with precision" as you boasted you could, but you have failed to do so.
If your moral theory is not objective, then it has little resemblance to the natural moral law. The natural moral law is, by definition, objective.
There you go again, attempting to win debates by definition rather than by argument. Some philosophers think natural moral law is objective, and some don't. Why don't you actually try arguing your belief instead of claiming victory by definition? Given that you accept that "objective" means “not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased”, I argue that no morality is completely objective. As I've alluded to, it is difficult to establish that any knowledge is completely objective: Even our sense perceptions are interpreted and biased, and our more abstract beliefs are even more influenced by interpretation of course. This applies to our understanding of morality as well.
It is the moral counterpart to the laws of nature.
Lest we descend too deeply into skeptical epistemology, let us agree arguendo that we can discern laws of nature with complete objectivity (contra what modern philosophy of science might teach). The only way we've managed to even approach this state of affairs is by means of scientific investigation, grounding knowledge by confirming it against our uniform and repeated experience. This method is unavailable for moral reasoning, and so it we cannot claim to have moral knowledge that is objective in the way scientific knowledge is.
When Thomas Jefferson speaks of the “Laws of Nature” and “Nature’s God,” he is referring to objective laws about human nature that transcend human thoughts and feelings, which are changeable and vary from person to person.
I think most fundamental precepts of moral reasoning is very constant across time, across individuals, and even across cultures. That does not mean it is objective, however, according to our agreed-upon definition.
RDF: I won’t argue if logic or mathematics is discovered or invented. SB: Why not? This is a critical element of the discussion, and yet, once again, you refuse to take a stand. Remarkable.
You seem very reluctant to ever admit that perhaps some question really doesn't have a good answer. You always have to have a strong opinion on everything! That is what I find remarkable. Very well, oh certain one, do tell us if mathematics is discovered or invented, and how you can be so sure!
RDF: I will argue that “the rules of right reason” account for precious little of our reasoning. SB: What part of our reasoning is exempt from reason’s rules?
I said the rules account for little of our reasoning, not that any part of our reasoning is exempt from those rules. If you still can't understand this, here's an analogy. There are Rules of English Grammar, and no well-written document is exempt from these rules. But one can hardly say that these rules account for what is written in the document; one can't use these rules to see if any particular sentence makes sense. Get it? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
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