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Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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'Junk DNA'
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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
I notice Kairosfocus did not take the opportunity to deny that he would control free thought and expression if he could. Sad but telling!Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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PS: Here is a corrective UD post, given at the time.kairosfocus
June 12, 2013
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F/N: 1] AF is directly associated with the invidious comparison game, and notice he does not distance himself to it. Free discussion does not justify uncivil conduct -- whether or not excused as "rough and tumble" as AF tried above, which Is what I have said should be ring-fenced. 2] AF manages to misrepresent what actually happened with MG, including his refusal to acknowledge -- in the teeth of manifest facts here on in context of years long standing (also cf here for a collection of links and notes on the MG gambit made as it went on as a sort of blow by blow . . . ) -- that the application of metric models to FSCO/I has long since been done. This refusal to be accountable before facts, truth, accuracy and fairness is a characteristic pattern of the sort of objectors we have been dealing with; year after year. 3] AF should reflect long and hard on what he has done and has allowed himself to be associated with, in light of the definition and discussion here on the moral costs of willfully continued misrepresentation given the facts as just linked. (And onlookers, AF and ever so many others have been corrected on this and many similar points ever so many times, but refuse to heed cogent correction. What RDF did above is sad, but no surprise.) KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2013
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“Neuroscientist” sounds too fancy. She’s in fact a psychologist.
Dr. Liddle's Ph D is in psychology. She teaches on the Cognitive Neuroscience and Neuropsychology module for the third year in the Psychiatry division at Nottingham University. She has some published papers and her research interests are listed as "translational mental health, in particular ADHD and schizophrenia, as well as neuroimaging." Referring to Dr Liddle as a neuroscientist seems reasonable.Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Recent onlookers should note that it is commonplace for certain notorious objectors to put on a web persona and come here to try to raise yet another cycle of typically fallacious objections, the Mathgrrl borrowed persona used by a certain Mr May being the most notorious.
Oh please! Trying to get a straight answer to "demonstrate how to calculate CSI" notorious? Don't make me laugh. Sure it was embarrassing to watch the emptiness of "Intelligent Design" exposed so completely but you can't blame Patrick May for your own shortcomings.Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Cyber fever swamps should be ring fenced and avoided by decent people.
So you would control free thought and expression if you could. I will oppose you and your ilk in this with my last breath. Though I should add that I defend your right to free thought and expression, none the less. PS, you appear to have suffered a major relapse. Please do better!Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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RD
"I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word “create” without the theological connotations of “A Creator”. You simply did not respond to this."
This is, of course, yet another misrepresentation. I pointed out on more than once that the words First Cause can be used. This notion about theological connotations are getting in the way is just another disingenuous attempt to avoid argument.
You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“.
This is, of course, beyond ridiculous. To create something from nothing is to cause it to come into existence. To simply appear out of nothing is to be uncaused.
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok?
It should be obvious that a law that doesn't exist cannot be violated. Thus, it is impossible to violate a law in the act of creating it.
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
This point has been refuted several times by several people. kairofocus writes: "In response to this, it was pointed out, several times, from several directions by various people, that (a) mass/energy conservation has to do with the typical state of our cosmos as a going concern, not as to its origins as a system including its laws, and (b) creation ex nihilo means something specific in context, that the cosmos we see was not created by re-arranging primoridal matter. Nor, (c) does it mean appearing out of nothing, by rather out of the volitional act of God as Creator" RDF ignores response and continues on with his talking points as if no refutation had taken place. And the beat goes on.StephenB
June 12, 2013
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F/N:
the “rough and tumble” of open fora
As one who has felt the force of nasty personal attacks, vulgarities, outing, cyberstalking, threats against uninvolved family etc that are being covered over with these smooth words, I have very little sympathy for those who are associated with such despicable nihilist Alinskyite tactics. As of now, TSZ's leadership -- and this is the relatively better one of the penumbra of hostile sites that try to feed off UD -- have yet to clean up on a false insinuation that I am a Nazi by invidious association. I actually think this one is actionable in UK law. And, AF, with RTH and OM are directly implicated in the case in view. The blithe pretence on EL's part -- as blog owner -- that there is nothing there, is itself grounds for continued banning here, on my view. Though, I of course have no control on such. In fact the ownership here -- predictably, you would not learn this from the likes of AF . . . -- has openly invited EL to return if she wishes. Cyber fever swamps should be ring fenced and avoided by decent people. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I think he might find the “rough and tumble” of open fora a bit of a shock.
Evos definitely find open fora a bit of a shock. If they cannot control the discussion they lose. It's as simple as that. And tehy need to control the discussion because they sure as heck cannot provide positive evidence for teh claims of their position. Heck most of them just equivocate like cowards. And Lizzie's "more relaxed discussion", that means there will be no evidence for evolutionism and only attacks on ID. Ya see evos get nervous when they actually have to support their position. And Lizzie can't have that on her blog.Joe
June 12, 2013
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F/N: Observe, no serious engagement on substance by objectors from the usual venues. In particular, the Josiah Royce point, Error exists -- which I assure you is very hard to handle for those who want to dismiss that some cases of knowledge are certain beyond reasonable dispute, in this case to undeniability -- is treated as if it is not there. Recent onlookers should note that it is commonplace for certain notorious objectors to put on a web persona and come here to try to raise yet another cycle of typically fallacious objections, the Mathgrrl borrowed persona used by a certain Mr May being the most notorious. And, that one ran very much like the above, though on a different line of objections. Remember, onlookers:
1 --> once there are distinct things in the world (W), and we recognise any such, A, we have a partition W = { A | NOT-A } and 2 --> the LOI, LNC and LEM follow as directly associated corollaries of that. Similarly, 3 --> once we have A, we may follow Schopenhauer and ask and confidently seek to answer why . . the principle of sufficient reason. 4 --> This leads to the contrast possible/impossible being (a case where LNC is already embedded), and contingent/necessary being in the a case where there is or is not dependence on ON/OFF enabling factors, with, 5 --> e.g. cf. the heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction are each necessary and jointly sufficient for a fire. (Just check out a match.) 6 --> A possible, contingent being that is actualised, is caused and may be described as an effect. Where also, 7 --> we may see from the match that this is a real phenomenon, especially the pivotal type of causal factor, an enabling on/off necessary factor. 8 --> By contrast a necessary being would have no such dependence and a serious candidate would be either impossible or actual. 9 --> Impossibility would be manifested in a contradiction in attributes, similar to those for a square circle. 10 --> The phenomenon of digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information, dFSCI -- manifest in text such as comments in this thread, and also in DNA, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits -- allows us to see something that is well beyond the credible capacity of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of our observed solar system or cosmos, so that it highlights the significance of intelligent designers who are purposeful, skilled and capable of making real decisions, not merely being programmed by blind chance and necessity. 11 --> That is, there is empirical measurably observable reason to accept on empirical evidence that there are real agents with ability to make free, responsible purposeful choices. (Yet another case of the significance of the design inference reasoning process.) 12 --> Where also the commonly seen the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism leads to the self-referential incoherence of mind on such premises, ending in self-refutation. A classic example of this point being Haldane's well known comment:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2013
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@AF:
set up by Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, a neuroscientist
"Neuroscientist" sounds too fancy. She's in fact a psychologist.JWTruthInLove
June 12, 2013
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Hi vividbleau,
Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification?
No, just certain.
Finally what is TSZ KF made reference to regarding you and something about you being a champion?
I have no clue why KF would call me a champion, but then I again I understand virtually nothing he says.
Do you post over there wherever there is and could that be IYO part of a back story that would account for some of the bad blood between you and the regulars here? Just curious.
No, I don't post there. I would say the "bad blood" you sense here derives from the fact that I challenge their most deeply held beliefs. I'm actually not an atheist nor a materialist nor a Darwinist, but my views are still very much odds with the folks here. Cheers, RDFiRDFish
June 12, 2013
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Websie? Web site!Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Finally what is TSZ
It is a websie based on a Wordpress template set up by Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, a neuroscientist, whho used to contribute regularly here. As topics scroll off very quickly and the moderation here is, shall we say, special, she created (see what I did there, Phineas?) an alternative venue for more relaxed discussion. She is currently banned from commenting here as are a number (a quite large number ;) ) of commenters. You would be very welcome there (as would StephenB). The Skeptical ZoneAlan Fox
June 12, 2013
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I suppose Descarte’s cogito is the best attempt to find something one can be absolutely certain of – that one experiences subjective states. Is that knowledge? Only to the extent that the referent can be characterized, and our apprehension of any particular aspect of our conscious experience (or memory thereof!) may be unreliable
l Are you not absolutely certain that at a minimm you are experiencing some kind of sujective state? As to my other question which maybe you are going to address in a seperate post but just in case I will ask it again here. Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification? Finally what is TSZ KF made reference to regarding you and something about you being a champion? Do you post over there wherever there is and could that be IYO part of a back story that would account for some of the bad blood between you and the regulars here? Just curious. Vividvividbleau
June 12, 2013
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I have taken time to go over this with RDF...
I have actually noticed some improvement in your attempts at communication, recently. Witness I actually read the comment from which I extracted the quote.. When you can manage to consider the possibility that people whose views differ widely from yours nevertheless hold those views sincerely and honestly, you will have made more progress.Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Death and taxes! They're certain. ...I'll get me coat!Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of.
As a long-time lurker, 8 years or so, I can say that Stephen's debating style and attitude to those who take the trouble to argue with him by commenting here is consistently as demonstrated in this thread. I haven't noticed Stephen having much of an internet life beyond the cloistered walls of Uncommon Descent. I think he might find the "rough and tumble" of open fora a bit of a shock.Alan Fox
June 12, 2013
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Hi vividbleau,
Why are you afraid I am missing something after all I am the one who asked if I was, so I certainly was not afraid if I was missing something.
Perhaps you're being funny? The phrase "I am afraid that..." is merely a polite idiom, of course. It doesn't actually mean that I was experiencing fear :-)
I do disagree with you I am absolutely certain that something is happening. That something, for lack of a better term exists or at least giving me the illusion that this is so.
I suppose Descarte's cogito is the best attempt to find something one can be absolutely certain of - that one experiences subjective states. Is that knowledge? Only to the extent that the referent can be characterized, and our apprehension of any particular aspect of our conscious experience (or memory thereof!) may be unreliable. But to doubt like this is hyper-skepticsm of the first order, which is boring and disingenuous. As I've written many, many, many times here, our failure to "solve" epistemology does not prevent us from being very, very certain of all sorts of things. Just because knowledge can't be justified without limit does not mean that knowledge is not possible.
I probably should not have used the word bother, perplexed is better. Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of.
Actually I don't have a thing against him. You've probably noticed that every so often he just gets really angry and starts with the name-calling and insults, but as soon as he calms down and gets back to the debate I immediately do the same. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 11, 2013
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PPS: I have taken time to go over this with RDF, as an example for future reference. Let the denizens of TSZ and other similar sites realise this, that if this is the standard of their champions -- and the above is sadly typical on years of observation, then it says a lot about the underlying fallacious nature of their worldview level case. It also shows where refusal to be guided by the first principles of right reason leads. As a wise king once warned, the laughter of a fool is as the crackling of thorns under a pot, which of course ends in ashes and ruin for the thorns.kairosfocus
June 11, 2013
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PS: And, to set things in a more reasonable order, from worldviews foundations on up, I suggest pausing for a few minutes and reading here on. (This is of course the precise linked unpretentious 101 level worldviews analysis passage that RDF has spent weeks refusing to engage by reading and reflecting on, as can be seen from the outset of this extremely long discussion. Read it, then ponder why someone like RDF would refuse to do so while indulging the sort of tactics that were yet again exposed just above. Then, please, don't feed the troll on the attention he craves. Simply -- and briefly -- point out (give links or at least references to comment numbers) that he is willfully ignoring cogent correction and is insistently perpetuating corrected error, reflecting to his discredit. After a few loops of that, most trolls will realise the game is over and quit. If there is a refusal to quit, that simply shows the sustained deep rooted nature of the problem.)kairosfocus
June 11, 2013
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F/N: Re another sadly illustrative sample from RDF. Note, first, 574:
I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word “create” without the theological connotations of “A Creator”. You simply did not respond to this.
Now, RDF, 525:
You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“. Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok? Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
In response to this, it was pointed out, several times, from several directions by various people, that (a) mass/energy conservation has to do with the typical state of our cosmos as a going concern, not as to its origins as a system including its laws, and (b) creation ex nihilo means something specific in context, that the cosmos we see was not created by re-arranging primoridal matter. Nor, (c) does it mean appearing out of nothing, by rather out of the volitional act of God as Creator. It was further pointed out that to make an attempted inductive generalisation that carries the law of conservation of mass and energy into the creation of the cosmos, is like the error of Lord Russell's inductive turkey. That unfortunately naive bird made the inference on long experience that it was an inevitable order of the world that every morning at 9:00 sharp he would be fed by the Kitchen door. Then, one fine morning, it was Christmas Eve. In short, a sustained pattern is consistent with design, and such a pattern may have exceptions for excellent reason not obvious from naively extrapolating the going concern status of events. (Fundamentally this is one of the errors commonly made regarding the possibility of the miraculous, rooted in naive scientism. Closer inspection will show that for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the usual course of events, there has to be a usual course; in a chaos where anything goes for any or no reason, there is no reliable order that allows an exception to stand forth as a sign. To naively suggest that such a usual course can only be exception-less is tantamount to a case of faulty universal generalisation. We are only warranted to decide on inductive inference on experience that such and so is the usual course of events, which appears highly reliable. Unless one has separate, good and sufficient reason to infer that there is no possibility of significant exceptions, the regular course is no proper appeal against such. Some day, it may be Christmas Eve. And of course, the truth is, there is no such good and separate evidence, and scientism fails.) In short, in his attempts to undermine causality and its status as being inextricably linked to possibility of being (which requires that necessary attributes of an entity are mutually consistent, as opposed to those of an impossible object such as a square circle), he has suggested that creation ex nihilo is, save theological suggestions, not discernible from appearing without cause. That is a gross misrepresentation, one corrected and one insistently repeated like a drumbeat, with confusing factors cleverly tossed in to throw the naive onlooker off the trail of truth. At no point was RDF found acknowledging that creation without prior material substance, of a world by an intelligent Creator [and BTW, there is significant evidence of fine tuning of the cosmos from basic laws and parameters on up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life, giving credence to design . . . ] was shown to be significantly distinct from a-causal appearance out of non-being, for no reason. Shown, but willfully ignored with accompanying drumbeat repetition of the false and confuted assertion as though it stands unexposed as fallacious. Similarly, after I just took time to lay out at length in 546 above a direct confutation of the assertion "There is no such thing as absolute certainty," . . . based on Josiah Royce's undeniably true claim "Error exists" -- E, symbolically -- which is a case of certain knowledge, for even to try to suggest a denial as a possibility leads straight to a conjunction (E and NOT-E) that must be false, demonstrating the claim E to be true, lo and behold in just above, RDF presents the same again in 572, as though it had not been decisively answered. Describing: willful ignoring of correction and willfully continued misrepresentation in the teeth of duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. Which has a certain definition showing it to be a manifestation of a little word beginning with L, cf. here. Sorry to be so sharp, but it is time to say, this is not a game, this is not something where one can play around and see who is going to fall for the trick, it is not a situation where our eduction system equips people to be logically and epistemologically sharp, especially on worldviews foundational matters. Someone with education and knowledge, has a duty of care in such a situation in our culture, to set things to right, instead of taking advantage of the failings of our formal and informal education systems. Let us never ever forget that debate is that wicked art that sets out to make the worse appear to be the better case and the reverse, to make the better seem the worse,; being aided to that end by rhetoric, the dark art of persuasion, not warrant. (This is why, I find our civilisation's obsession with "debate" and clever "public speaking" a telling, and sad symptom. Well did the apostle warn that there would come a perilous time when many would refuse to put up with sound instruction, but would instead flock to those who would tickle their itching ears with what they want to hear. Instead, we need to shift to informed dialogue towards the truth and the right, in light of acknowledged duties of care to truth, soundness, cogency, accuracy and fairness.) And BTW, Vivid's point above is also dead on, the assertion that there is no absolute certainty is an absolute claim. It refutes itself, immediately. This can be seen by asking in reply: "are you ABSOLUTELY sure of that?" So, though I do think SB's language should be more temperate and restrained [not least it just creates an opportunity for more obfuscation and Alinskyite gloating . . . ] it seems to me that we are here seeing a willful rhetorical manipulation by RDF, maintained for weeks in the teeth of patent duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness. This performance is too smooth to be naive confusion or blind parrotting of talking points. This is patently calculated. Maybe, it is only intended as the equivalent of a practical joke for intellectual entertainment of some cynical sort, but in any case the utter irresponsibility and disrespect involved do not paint a pretty picture of the sort of mindset that produces such. And when I think about the issue of the misleading of the naive onlooker . . . At this point, I think the truth is that we need to recognise that we should resurrect the right of collective outrage in the teeth of the dark triad manifesting a long train of usurpations and manipulative abuses sustained in the teeth of correction. We have so come to worship "cool" in our time that we fail to notice that we are not able to say enough is enough in the teeth of the most clever manipulative bewitchment rhetoric tactics, and to support those who identify, correct and expose the same, then rebuke and shun those who insistently indulge in willful manipulation. For those with a sufficiently benumbed conscience -- in our day, their name is Legion -- evident failure of manipulation leading to exposure and loss of influence and credibility is almost the only thing that will restrain some of the more clever and ruthless practitioners of Alinskyite tactics. In short, there is something to be said for the old English practice of "sending to Coventry," for the willfully, insistently manipulative. I trust that at this point, no-one who has even one eye open, will continue to believe the credibility of RDF's confident manner assertions of long since patiently refuted but regularly recirculated twisty talking points and bald assertions. I will continue to monitor the thread, and will as necessary give "slice of the cake" samples of the manipulation by way of exposure, but RDF has long since been exposed on his main claims so there is no reason to try to further repeat such point by point in extenso. Just scroll up and take time to read for substance. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2013
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I’m afraid you’re missing something. The above is neither absolutely true nor absolutely false of course. The point is about the limits to epistemological justification.
Why are you afraid I am missing something after all I am the one who asked if I was, so I certainly was not afraid if I was missing something. Are you absolutely certain there are limits to epistemological justification? I do disagree with you I am absolutely certain that something is happening. That something, for lack of a better term exists or at least giving me the illusion that this is so.
I have never debated Stephen, no. Why would that be bothering you?
I probably should not have used the word bother, perplexed is better. Just seems like a lot of bad blood between you two and since I am not a regular here there may be a back story I am not aware of. Vividvividbleau
June 11, 2013
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Hi vividbleau,
RFD: There is no such thing as absolute certainty VB: The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something?
I'm afraid you're missing something. The above is neither absolutely true nor absolutely false of course. The point is about the limits to epistemological justification.
One other thing that has been bothering me and if you dont want to answer thats ok. But do you and Stephen have a history that precedes this thread? Just curious. I guess Stephen can answer that as well I suppose.
I have never debated Stephen, no. Why would that be bothering you? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 11, 2013
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@kairosfocus:
Onlookers: At this point, this is almost a parody.
This onlooker is not impressed with StephenB's personal attacks. StephenB must reflect on his wrongdoings and do better next time.JWTruthInLove
June 11, 2013
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There is no such thing as absolute certainty
The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something? One other thing that has been bothering me and if you dont want to answer thats ok. But do you and Stephen have a history that precedes this thread? Just curious. I guess Stephen can answer that as well I suppose. Vividvividbleau
June 11, 2013
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RFD
There is no such thing as absolute certainty</blockquote? The above is either absolutely true or absolutely false or am I missing something? Vivid
vividbleau
June 11, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering “prior to” the existence of time itself. SB: This is, of course, untrue. I have never said anything like that or even close to it. He is just making that up.
OK! Let's get to the bottom of this, shall we? Here is why I think that you did indeed argue this:
SB @474: There is no law of conservation until God makes one. How can God violate a Law that isn’t even in existence until he makes it?
As I explained to you before (see @475) the word "until" is a temporal modifier - the word has no meaning except with reference to a point in time. Thus you are saying that God "made" the law of conservation at some point in time before the beginning of the universe. Since there was no time "before" the beginning of the universe, your conception of God creating this law in time is incoherent. Now, if you'd like to argue this point some more that would be great - but obviously your accusation that I'm "just making it up" is just truculence on your part.
RDF:You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. SB: This is untrue. I explained that LNC and LoC are inextricably tied together and that the LoC is a necessary consequence the LNC. (“entail” means “to involve something as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence”).
So let's get to the bottom of this one too. Here's how the discussion went: 1) You made the argument that LoC is a necessary consequence of LNC. 2) I rebutted your argument based on the fact that your argument relied on existence being a predicate 3) You rejected my rebuttal, insisting that existence could indeed be consistently used as a predicate (or perhaps that you weren't really using existence as a predicate - I'm not really sure what you were arguing). 4) In any event, I agreed to disagree about that, and used another argument to rebut your claim that LNC -> LoC. This argument simply pointed out that LNC was fully consistent with acausality. 5) You have not yet responded to this last argument.
Keep in mind this is all coming from the same person who said that getting something from nothing (a causeless universe) is exactly the same thing as saying “ex-nilio creation. (a universe caused by a creator).
Here, I explained to you (and so did 5for) that the Law of Conservation uses the word "create" without the theological connotations of "A Creator". You simply did not respond to this. Well, I do appreciate you trying to set the record straight here. I still think your idea that God created the Law of Conservation at some point in time is incoherent, and that you have yet to respond to my argument that physical causality is not entailed by logic. And again, here the other points I feel are most imporant: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty 2) Libertarianism contradicts causality 3) Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe And finally, the status of the other points about which we've argued: 4) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. 6) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 11, 2013
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RD
Maybe instead of lashing out like that, you should just study my arguments so next time you’ll do better!
It is the losing side that feels the need to misrepresent the comments of others. Here are three quick examples: RD
You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering “prior to” the existence of time itself.
This is, of course, untrue. I have never said anything like that or even close to it. He is just making that up.
You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all.
This is untrue. I explained that LNC and LoC are inextricably tied together and that the LoC is a necessary consequence the LNC. (“entail” means “to involve something as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence”). Kairosfocus made the same point formally many times. RDF refused to address it because he “didn’t like KF’s writing style.”
You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians)
This is another made up story. When all else fails, he tries the literature bluff. No reputable logician would dare say that receiving existence is a logical contradiction any more than giving existence is a logical contradiction. Keep in mind this is all coming from the same person who said that getting something from nothing (a causeless universe) is exactly the same thing as saying “ex-nilio creation. (a universe caused by a creator). Oh well, the reader gets the drift I am sure.StephenB
June 11, 2013
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Hi StephenB, You shouldn't take this so hard, really. I don't think you've thought these arguments through very well, and I've spent a great deal of time thinking about them. Maybe instead of lashing out like that, you should just study my arguments so next time you'll do better! Anyway, it looks like you're not even trying anymore, so let's call it quits. I'd say the most important points I argued successfully were these: 1) There is no such thing as absolute certainty 2) Physical causality is not entailed by logic 3) Libertarianism contradicts causality 4) Our conception of causality cannot be applied in certain quantum domains and in the context of the beginning of the universe Thanks again, and better luck next time ;-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 11, 2013
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