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Feet to the fire: A response to Dr. Stacy Trasancos

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Stacy Trasancos, a homeschooling mother of seven with a Ph.D. in chemistry and an M.A. in Dogmatic Theology who is an Adjunct Professor at Holy Apostles College and Seminary, has penned a thoughtful essay over at the Catholic One Faith blog titled, Does Science Prove God Exists? Her answer, in a nutshell, is that while science can provide inductive support for the existence of a Creator, only theology can provide deductive arguments for God’s existence. In any case, we shouldn’t need to prop up our belief in God with scientific arguments. Dr. Trasancos rejects the view that some scientific conclusions are compatible with God’s existence, while others are not. Christians, she says, should start from the fundamental notion that God made everything, and then proceed to view scientific findings in the light of faith.

There is much wisdom in Dr. Trasancos’s brief but profound essay, which is written in a warm and engaging style. She is surely correct when she contends that science cannot provide us with deductive arguments for the existence of God; the most it can do is provide evidence which is best explained by positing the existence of a Transcendent Intelligence, Who designed the laws that govern our cosmos, so as to make it able to support embodied, intelligent life-forms (e.g. human beings). That’s the conclusion argued for by Dr. Robin Collins in his widely cited essay, The Teleological Argument, which infers God’s existence from the fine-tuning of the cosmos. (Biological versions of the argument from design are far more modest, as Intelligent Design proponent Professor Michael Behe publicly stated as far back as 2001: “Possible candidates for the role of designer include: the God of Christianity; an angel — fallen or not; Plato’s demiurge; some mystical New Age force; space aliens from Alpha Centauri; time travelers; or some utterly unknown intelligent being.”)

Could science falsify belief in God?

She is mistaken, however, when she pooh-poohs the notion that “some scientific conclusions are compatible with the idea that God exists and others are not.” This, I have to say, is nonsense. Suppose that science were to establish that determinism is true. If that were the case, then there can be no freedom and hence no moral agency. As Cambridge philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe put it in her Inaugural Lecture as Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University in 1971, titled Causality and Determination: “My actions are mostly physical movements; if these physical movements are physically predetermined by processes which I do not control, then my freedom is perfectly illusory. The truth of physical indeterminism is then indispensable if we are to make anything of the claim to freedom.” Likewise, there can be no good grounds for belief in God, in a universe where my thoughts are physically determined – for as philosopher Alvin Plantinga has pointed out, what guarantee would there be, in such a universe, that my reasoning on purely metaphysical matters (as opposed to practical problems) could even be trusted? Similarly, there would be no room for God’s existence if science were to establish that we live in an infinite multiverse of the kind postulated by Max Tegmark, where every logical possibility is realized in some universe. On such a scenario, choices could never matter, since whenever I am confronted with a choice to do X or not do X, there will always be a world in which I do it, and another world in which I don’t. Or again, suppose that science were to prove that time travel is possible. Such a discovery would be profoundly atheistic in its implications, as it would violate the notion of causality – and hence, overthrow the notion of a First Cause. Finally, the discovery of a naked singularity would destroy the very notion of causality – and wreak havoc with science itself, as experiments conducted in the vicinity of such a singularity would no longer be replicable.

Science in the light of faith

With regard to Dr. Trasancos’s suggestion that Christians should view scientific findings in the light of faith, I have no quarrel with this way of proceeding. It was St. Anselm of Canterbury, after all, who famously declared, “I believe in order that I may understand,” and in a similar vein, C.S. Lewis wrote: “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” What I reject, however, is Dr. Trasancos’s implied assumption that faith should always be a starting point for viewing scientific discoveries. I would maintain that there are some discoveries that boost faith (e.g the discovery that even the multiverse must have had a beginning), just as there are some potential discoveries that would weaken or even destroy it. For my part, I identify more with Peter Abelard, who declared: “I understand in order that I may believe.”

Dr. Trasancos adds: “Seeing science in the light of faith is an all-or-none proposition. Either it all bespeaks the wonder of the Creator, or none of it does.” Yes, but some parts of God’s creation point to God much more clearly than others. A religious person will see God’s glory in the “unimaginable, ineffable order and symmetry” of Nature, which Dr. Trasancos writes about so eloquently – everything “from stars to dandelions down to the smallest particles of matter.” But a hard-nosed atheist will ask why order could not simply be a basic feature of the cosmos. If I were trying to convince an atheist of the existence of a Creator, I would point to something far more convincing, like the ATP synthase enzyme shown in this 86-second Youtube video by creation.com. Any unbiased viewer can see at once that ATP synthase is the product of design:

The inference to design here is obvious. As chemist Jonathan Sarfati explains in another video, entitled Evolution Vs ATP Synthase – Molecular Machine:

You couldn’t have life unless you had this motor to produce the energy currency, so it looks like this motor must have been there right from the beginning, and I’d say that because this motor is so much better, so much tinier and more efficient than anything we can design, … the Designer of the motor is far more intelligent than any motor designer we have today too.

Scientific proofs for God: what one Pope said

I might add that Pope Pius XII was firmly convinced that science could establish the existence of God. Here’s a brief quote from his address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on November 22, 1951, titled “The Proofs For The Existence Of God In The Light Of Modern Natural Science”.

2. In fact, according to the measure of its progress, and contrary to affirmations advanced in the past, true science discovers God in an ever-increasing degree – as though God were waiting behind every door opened by science.

44. It is undeniable that when a mind enlightened and enriched with modern scientific knowledge weighs this problem calmly, it feels drawn to break through the circle of completely independent or autochthonous matter, whether uncreated or self-created, and to ascend to a creating Spirit. With the same clear and critical look with which it examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence, whose power, set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced billions of years ago by the Creating Spirit, spread out over the universe, calling into existence with a gesture of generous love matter busting with energy. In fact, it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step back across millions of centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, while the particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies…

49. What, then, is the importance of modern science for the argument for the existence of God based on the mutability of the cosmos? By means of exact and detailed research into the macrocosm and the microcosm, it has considerably broadened and deepened the empirical foundation on which this argument rests, and from which it concludes to the existence of an Ens a se, immutable by His very nature.

50. It has, besides, followed the course and the direction of cosmic developments, and, just as it was able to get a glimpse of the term toward which these developments were inexorably leading, so also has it pointed to their beginning in time some five billion years ago. Thus, with that concreteness which is characteristic of physical proofs, it has confirmed the contingency of the universe and also the well-founded deduction as to the epoch when the cosmos came forth from the hands of the Creator.

51. Hence, creation took place in time. Therefore, there is a Creator. Therefore, God exists! Although it is neither explicit nor complete, this is the reply we were awaiting from science, and which the present human generation is awaiting from it…

52. The knowledge of God as sole Creator, now shared by many modern scientists, is indeed, the extreme limit to which human reason can attain. Nevertheless, as you are well aware, it does not constitute the last frontier of truth. In harmonious cooperation, because all three are instruments of truth, like rays of the same sun, science, philosophy, and, with still greater reason, Revelation, contemplate the substance of this Creator whom science has met along its path unveil His outlines and point out His features. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Dr. Trasancos’s remarks on Intelligent Design are, I have to say, misinformed. She writes: “Others point to ‘Intelligent Design’ where they decide intelligent design must exist and call that proof that an Intelligent Designer must exist, a most circular form of reasoning.” In all my years as an Intelligent Design advocate, I have never met an ID proponent who argued in such a circular fashion. The New World Encyclopedia defines the logic of Intelligent Design clearly and succinctly: “ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent.” More specifically: “The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.” (Discovery Institute, FAQs about Intelligent Design.) No circularity there!

Feet to the fire: A thought experiment

Nevertheless, Dr. Trasancos’s objection to the need for Intelligent Design-style arguments needs to be taken seriously. She asks: if theology can provide us with deductive arguments which establish the existence of God with absolute certitude, why should we need scientific arguments to buttress our belief in God, given that the inductive arguments provided by science are of vastly inferior quality to theological arguments? I’d like to answer that question, by inviting my readers to imagine the following hypothetical scenario.

Imagine that the country where you live is taken over by an atheistic madman whose avowed aim is to stamp out religious faith of any kind. The madman issues an order requiring all citizens to publicly profess atheism, or suffer the torture of having their feet held to the fire until they either recant or die. The madman is also very good at spotting liars, and he decrees that anyone he catches lying when they make their profession of atheism will face an even more terrible fate: that of being hung, drawn and quartered, along with all their family members. You, of course, believe in God, and you refuse to accede to the madman’s demand that you publicly professing atheism, so he sentences you to be tortured. As you ponder your impending fate of being slowly roasted to death from the feet upwards, you ask yourself whether your faith in God will be strong enough to survive the ordeal, or whether it will destroy your faith and turn you into an atheist.

On the night before your ordeal by fire, you mentally review the arguments for God’s existence, for it will be these arguments that will support you in your time of trial. During your life, you have met a few people who have had a religious experience, and who claim to have been personally touched by God. Unfortunately, that has never happened to you: although you pray regularly, you have never heard the voice of God answering your prayers, or sensed His indwelling presence. Despite being a Christian, you have never had a personal experience of Divine grace in your entire life: your experience is one of lifelong silence from on high. That doesn’t bother you, as you are quietly confident that you will meet and commune with your Maker in the next world. However, your lack of any religious experience forces you to rely entirely on the arguments put forward for God’s existence. The question you have to ask yourself is: which of these arguments will sustain your faith best, as your feet are being held to the fire?

It might seem that the deductive, metaphysical arguments for God’s existence would offer the surest support for your faith, and that the inductive – or rather, abductive – arguments provided by science offer a very weak support for belief in God. But it occurs to you that even the deductive arguments are not based on indubitable premises – and you are quite sure that you will have doubts aplenty, as the flames lick your feet and you ask yourself: “Do I really want to go through with this?”

The cosmological arguments for God’s existence all assume that whatever exists must have an adequate explanation for its existence – either from within its nature or from something outside it, which maintains it in existence. That sounds reasonable enough – but you realize that the contrary view, that the existence of certain things (e.g. the universe as a whole, or quantum fields) is an inexplicable brute fact (as Bertrand Russell maintained), is not obviously contradictory. Some Scholastic philosophers have argued that explanations resting on an ultimate “brute fact” cannot really explain anything at all, which would imply that scientific explanations are a big charade if the cosmos itself turns out to be a brute fact. Science, in other words, presupposes the Principle of Sufficient Reason. However, being a widely read person, you are also well aware that there are atheistic scientists who argue that the task of science is merely to systematize our observations by accounting for them in the simplest possible manner, and that the universe itself requires no external explanation: it exists, and that’s all one can say. Of course, you know that there are excellent grounds for believing the universe to be contingent: it appears to be composite, and nothing about it appears to be necessary: it doesn’t have to be the way it is. But a nagging voice in your head asks: “Can I even prove that the notion of a Necessary Being makes sense? And exactly what kind of necessity are we attributing to God, anyway?” (You know perfectly well that even theistic philosophers differ in their accounts of Divine necessity: some maintain that God’s existence is logically necessary, others define God as a self-explanatory Being, while yet others propose a more modest definition: God is the kind of Being Which, if He exists, requires nothing outside Himself in order to exist – which would make God independent, but leave His existence a profound mystery.) You wonder whether the cosmological argument alone will be enough to sustain your faith in God, as the flames lick your feet, and you soberly conclude: probably it won’t.

Other doubts trouble you, too. Even if you could be 100% sure of the existence of an Uncaused Cause which is necessary and which doesn’t require anything outside itself to actualize its capacities, it is another thing altogether to claim that this cause is an intelligent personal Agent. Many philosophers have argued that the tendencies of various kinds of things – be they fields, particles, chemical substances or organisms – to act in a regular, lawlike fashion indicates that their behavior is somehow goal-directed, and that the notion of goal-directed behavior makes no sense unless there is an Intelligence which governs all things and directs them towards their built-in ends. (This is the conclusion of Aquinas’s Fifth Way.) You find these arguments very reasonable, because they help you make sense of the order you find in Nature: indeed, it would be difficult for you to account for the laws of Nature in any other fashion. However, you’re also aware that some Thomist philosophers find Aquinas’s Fifth Way less than convincing, and you also have problems with some contemporary defenses of the Fifth Way, which you have read. You are not unduly perturbed by these difficulties; indeed, you think the Fifth Way can be successfully revamped in a way that surmounts them. But in the end, you realize that the whole force of the argument depends on a particular way of looking at the world, and you wonder whether you will be able to keep looking at the world in that way, as your feet are held to the fire. You realize that you will need something more to sustain you.

Your anxieties increase when you consider the sloppy arguments put forward by philosophers to establish God’s infinitude – a particularly vital Divine attribute, as a finite being would not be worthy of worship. The Scholastic axiom that act can only be limited by potency (which would entail that a Being Who is Pure Act must perforce be infinite) has always struck you as doubtful, as some actual properties (e.g. triangularity) seem to be limited by their very definition. Neither are you impressed by the argument that a Being Who is Pure Act must contain all perfections, for although it is obvious that such a Being can contain no imperfections, it doesn’t follow that it must contain all perfections within its nature. Of course, you recognize that a Necessary Being cannot be composed of parts; hence its essence must be identical with its act of existence. However, the inference that God, being Pure Existence, must contain (at least virtually) all possible perfections strikes you as logically flawed. For it is one thing to say that God is identical with His own act of existence; quite another to equate Him with “Pure Existence” – whatever that phrase means.

Most doubtful of all are the metaphysical arguments put forward by theists, in order to establish God’s goodness. The argument that a Being Who is Pure Act must be perfectly good, because it is Being Itself, leaves you cold. The vital question, as far as you are concerned, is not whether God is “good” in the sense of being perfect, but whether He is “good” in the sense of being all-loving – and more particularly, whether such an all-loving Being loves you personally, as an individual. For a Being Who did not love you personally would not be worth dying for.

Weighing up these deductive arguments, you feel dissatisfied, and sense that you will need something more to get you through the fearful ordeal that awaits you. At this low point in your theological reflections, science comes to the rescue. You recall that there are other, independent arguments for the existence of God which do not rely on metaphysics, but are empirically based. These scientific arguments do not pretend to establish the existence of the God of classical theism, for they do not go that far; nor do they offer the certitude provided by a deductive argument, for their logic is abductive, proceeding by way of inference to the best explanation. Despite these deficiencies, however, you find that the arguments fortify the thin metaphysical arguments of Scholastic theology. Where the metaphysical arguments are weak, the scientific arguments are strong, and vice versa. The metaphysical arguments are more rigorous, but you find yourself wondering if the philosophical axioms which they rest on are really true. They are rational, but by no means indubitable. The scientific arguments, on the other hand, strike you as far more accessible and less open to doubt, precisely because they are purely empirical in nature. While they are not as certain as the rigorous metaphysical arguments for an Uncaused Cause and a Necessary Being, you find that they are more convincing, because accepting the truth of their premises requires no metaphysical commitments on your part: the science speaks for itself. You realize, of course, that these scientific arguments might turn out to be wrong: perhaps the apparent fine-tuning of the cosmos is merely a reflection of our current scientific ignorance, and physicists of the 22nd century will laugh it off. But you live in the 21st century, and based on what you currently know, it seems pretty likely to you that the universe (and for that matter, the multiverse) is fine-tuned to support life, and that the fine-tuning was intended as a signal by the Creator to His intelligent creatures, to make us aware of His existence. You also review the biological arguments for Intelligent Design – especially those based on protein folds and the astronomical improbability of even a simple life-form – a replication and translation system – arising through undirected processes. Some scientists have proposed the existence of an infinite multiverse to get round those difficulties, but you realize that this proposal won’t work either. While the biological arguments for Intelligent Design don’t establish the existence of a Cosmic Creator, they do point to the existence of a being capable of creating digital codes in the DNA of organisms. A being capable of creating a code would presumably also be capable of using language. That points to the existence of a Creator Who can talk to us, if He wishes to.

The argument from miracles also impresses you. There have been many miracles recorded throughout history, but perhaps the most carefully documented one, which leaves very little room for doubt, relates to the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino (for more details, see this article here and see my posts here and here). An article written by a modern biographer, Michael Grosso, summarizes the evidence for St. Joseph’s levitations as follows:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation; and then decided it was enough…

…[T]he Church progressively tried to make him retreat to the most obscure corners of the Adriatic coast, ending finally under virtual house arrest in a small monastic community at Osimo. There was no decline effect in Joseph’s strange aerial behaviors; during his last six years in Osimo he was left alone to plunge into his interior life; the records are unanimous in saying that the ratti (raptures) were in abundance right up until his dying days. The cleric in charge of the community swore that he witnessed Joseph levitate to the ceiling of his cell thousands of times.

What impresses you about this evidence is that like the scientific arguments pointing to God’s existence, it is purely empirical: the evidence speaks for itself. To repudiate the evidence for St. Joseph’s levitations, one would have to assume colossal mendacity and/or unbelievable stupidity on the part of thousands of people who witnessed these levitations. While the evidence does not establish the existence of the God of classical theism, it is worth noting that what typically prompted St. Joseph’s levitations was hearing the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint: this was enough to make him go into an ecstasy and remain floating in the air for several hours. Evidence like this not only points to the existence of God, but of a highly personal God, Who cares about individuals like you.

A final fact which impresses you very greatly is the existence of subjective self-awareness. Although you are not given to religious experiences, you recall that yesterday, you walked down the street in the afternoon sunshine, and marveled at the beauty of it all – and at the fact that you were able to enjoy that beauty. Viewed from a purely naturalistic perspective, the existence of any consciousness, anywhere in the world (let alone the self-consciousness which you enjoy) is a surprising fact – one which we have no reason to expect. A “survival machine” doesn’t need to be conscious: it just needs to make the right moves. From a theistic perspective, on the other hand, the existence of consciousness makes perfect sense: one would expect a personal Creator to make beings who were capable of knowing and loving their Creator (as well as each other), if He were going to make a world at all.

Pondering these facts, you realize that you will have something to sustain you through your ordeal by fire, after all. You know that in your last moments on this earth, you will die screaming in agony – but because your faith in God is buttressed on many levels, the agony you endure will not destroy your conviction that the world has a Creator. And science will have helped, in no small way, to reinforce that conviction.

A closing thought from St. Thomas Aquinas

I’d like to close with a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic theologian whom I know Dr. Trasancos respects greatly. In his Summa Contra Gentiles Book III, chapter 99, paragraph 9 (That God Can Work Apart From The Order Implanted In Things, By Producing Effects Without Proximate Causes), Aquinas writes:

[D]ivine power can sometimes produce an effect, without prejudice to its providence, apart from the order implanted in natural things by God. In fact, He does this at times to manifest His power. For it can be manifested in no better way, that the whole of nature is subject to the divine will, than by the fact that sometimes He does something outside the order of nature. Indeed, this makes it evident that the order of things has proceeded from Him, not by natural necessity, but by free will.

Here, Aquinas says that God’s power and voluntary agency “can be manifested in no better way … than by the fact that He sometimes does something outside the order of nature.” I conclude that not all manifestations of God’s power are equally effective in manifesting the fact of His existence, and that certain kinds of evidence much stronger than others. Stars and dandelions are all very well and good, but I’m sure that St. Thomas Aquinas, were he alive today, would have had no qualms whatsoever about appealing to the best kind of we have empirical evidence from the natural world – molecules that require a Designer and miracles that manifest the existence of a supernatural Creator – in order to convince skeptics of God’s existence.

What do readers think?

Comments
Re #72: Nah. The issue is that some folks here think claiming somebody floated around when he heard a couple of names, or claiming they got abducted by aliens, or met Bigfoot can be made credible by producing eyewitnesses. The funny part is that you brought the courts into it: If the testimony is credible and doesn't defy the laws of physics, then courts may accept testimony by eyewitnesses. If it does defy the laws of physics or posits the supernatural in any other ways courts will reject it. But go ahead, claim that courts are hyperskeptical because of it.hrun0815
March 2, 2016
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AE (attn HRUN), The issue is the general credibility of eyewitness testimony, and of report or written record of same. Once you impugn it in cases you do not like, and blanket dismiss, you raise the issue of selective hyperskepticism in defence of an established worldview. We must retain reasonable balance of critically aware open mindedness that seeks good warrant for conclusions. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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HRUN: "Re #68: KF, are you for real? You bring court cases into this? How many courts do you think will take the word of a witness who claims somebody was floating, got abducted by aliens, or played poker with big foot?" That is just crazy talk. Everybody knows that Bigfoot only plays backgammon.Algorithm Eh
March 2, 2016
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Re #68: KF, are you for real? You bring court cases into this? How many courts do you think will take the word of a witness who claims somebody was floating, got abducted by aliens, or played poker with big foot?hrun0815
March 2, 2016
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KairosFocus: "something that is illogical will be incoherent; to assert or imply that something not in accord with the usual course of events is illogical is to imply that these laws obtain with logical necessity." No it doesn't. If a law is logically incoherent, you modify the law. What is so difficult about that? "A world formed by a necessary being who is a greatest possible being and inherently good creator God is not logically incoherent." Except that this presupposes a creator God. Doing so invokes circularity. Patently obvious. "It also presumes the universality and necessity of the laws of nature arrived at inductively; but such is inherently open to rare exceptions." No they aren't. If there is an exception, then the formulation of the law is incorrect. It needs to be modified or discarded. "In this case, you overlook the possibility that the world we experience is sustained in being and operation by its Creator who for good reasons may act in unusual ways. Such as the resurrection of Jesus from the dead with 500 witnesses that could not be broken." Can you provide me with the sworn testimony of any of these 500? Or was this recorded many years after the event? Or their deaths? "Further, you overlook that other beings may be more intelligent and advanced than we are (where I make no commitments whatsoever to their being morally well intentioned) and can manipulate reality in ways that we do not understand." No I don't. Where are they? And how do they do it? "I therefore suggest avoiding the position that a supernatural event or believing one has witnessed such is an ILLOGICAL point." When someone can explain why it is LOGICAL to blindly accept things that we don't yet understand, I will change my position.Algorithm Eh
March 2, 2016
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HRUN, are you prepared to say every court case, news item or historical event not backed up by videotape should be tossed? If so, what would be the consequences? If not, what does this say about selective hyperskepticism and where it leads? (The case VJT has highlighted, Joseph of Cupertino, is highly relevant to this.) KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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Re #62: Yes, yes. Just as I said. Gods and demons are sly and they will likely only suspend fundamental laws like gravity in places where they will likely not be filmed or in any way examined in detail. Just like those aliens who preferentially abduct folks in the rural Midwest or Big Foot who only appears to lone hikers in Appalachia or the Pacific Northwest. These guys are all way to sneaky to be filmed.hrun0815
March 2, 2016
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AE, something that is illogical will be incoherent; to assert or imply that something not in accord with the usual course of events is illogical is to imply that these laws obtain with logical necessity. A world formed by a necessary being who is a greatest possible being and inherently good creator God is not logically incoherent. Indeed such is seriously arguably a logically possible world. Your inference that in a gravity field a human body cannot levitate misses out something: in absence of an over-riding force or factor. It also presumes the universality and necessity of the laws of nature arrived at inductively; but such is inherently open to rare exceptions. In this case, you overlook the possibility that the world we experience is sustained in being and operation by its Creator who for good reasons may act in unusual ways. Such as the resurrection of Jesus from the dead with 500 witnesses that could not be broken. Further, you overlook that other beings may be more intelligent and advanced than we are (where I make no commitments whatsoever to their being morally well intentioned) and can manipulate reality in ways that we do not understand. I therefore suggest avoiding the position that a supernatural event or believing one has witnessed such is an ILLOGICAL point. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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Aleta, In fact the first problem of evolutionary materialist secularist scientism is it is self referentially incoherent and cannot credibly account for responsible rational freedom. That freedom is the premise of rational discussion. A simple case in point is this, from J B S Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
The existence of rational, responsible freedom -- a condition of having logical discussions -- is itself a strong sign that blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on matter, energy, space and time do not exhaust reality. Going beyond, the material cosmos is inherently contingent, pointing to a necessary being root as ground of reality. The cosmos also shows strong signs of being designed. We, as rational and responsible beings find ourselves inescapably under moral principles, the binding force of ought. This points to a moral root of reality, an intelligent root, a minded root and a necessary being root that is beyond matter. So, it is not inherently implausible that there will be intelligent actors that go beyond the familiar matter-energy space time domain. Indeed our own mindedness points beyond that domain. Instead, the real issue is that in this era there is a commonplace a priori evolutionary materialist scientism that because it wears the lab coat is given a privileged status. It uses that status to a priori lock out the possibility of considering reality beyond the material. Even at the price of self referential incoherence. I suggest, in the case I mentioned as an eyewitness, and in many others that we have good record on, there credibly are events that do go beyond the ordinary mundane course of events. But it becomes quite interesting to see how such reports are rejected, why. And nope, I did not believe the testimony of my senses because I am unduly credulous. I believe them because I was in a situation where the seeing was reasonable and I know what I and others saw, including further phenomena not mentioned. Where, again, I note that what I saw was part of the problem, not the solution. The solution, though less spectacular, was even more significant. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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KairosFocus@61: "A supernatural event does not defy logic, it is not incoherent." Of course it does, and is. Given the force of gravity and the density of the human body, it is logical to conclude that the human body cannot levitate. Therefore, levitation defies logic (and physics). "Laws of nature are not laws of logic." Who said they were? "And BTW if I saw a UFO an unquestionably alien abduction in progress at 20 ft range under conditions lighted for reading, I would believe it. So would any reasonable person." That is where you and I differ. I would examine all other possible explanations, including willful deception, before I would believe that the person was abducted by aliens. Given the immense distances between stars, and the time required to travel between them, the rational approach would be to be extremely skeptical of what I thought I saw. The same applies to levitation.Algorithm Eh
March 2, 2016
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vjt wrote to kf,
For my part, I would like to say that I have no trouble believing your story of the levitation that you and 50 other people witnessed. I also have no trouble believing in demonic intelligences. This should be obvious to any thinking person, even arguing on purely secular grounds. After all, there’s a good chance that if intelligent beings like ourselves exist, then other intelligent beings do, too. Some of them would be far ahead of us, mentally speaking, so invisibility would not be a problem for them. The same goes for levitation. Some of these beings would be good and some would be evil, or demonic. The commenters who pronounced your story incredible need to open their minds.
I understand that a religious person who believes that supernatural beings (God, angels, demons, whatever) might exist might also accept this explanation for levitation. I'm not interested in discussing whether those are reasonable beliefs are not, although as a non-supernaturalist, I don't believe them. But I do want to respond to one part of what vjt said: As a thinking person, I think it is nonsense to say that on "purely secular grounds" there is a "good chance" that there are other intelligent beings here on earth who are "so far ahead of us, mentally speaking, [that] invisibility would not be a problem for them." It is one thing to have an open mind. It it is another thing to abandon critical thinking. There are no secular grounds whatsoever for thinking that invisible demonic spirits exist, much less that they spend their time levitating people. And a reminder: I'm not interested in all the talk about eye-witness accounts and other evidence. I just want to point out that the only people willing to entertain the validity of these purported phenomena must accept the possibility of supernatural phenomena outside the scope of what is considered a secular viewpoint. So to say that the existence of demonic intelligences "should be obvious to any thinking person, even arguing on purely secular grounds," is flat out wrong.Aleta
March 2, 2016
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HRUN, It so happens that people in this neck of the woods are not usually going to be filming spectacles in church (though cam phones and tablets with cams are sufficiently common that several were indubitably present); especially when the events are not sensationalised, they were part of the problem not the solution. Besides, it is always easy to dismiss a video as faked. In the end it is not the events that are on trial here, but the way some respond in inadvertently tellingly ways. Which was ever so, in Jesus' day he was clearly accused of devilish sorcery and the terrified disciples last seen running for their lives, of mounting a raid against an armed tomb guard. Paul's challenge to his judges still stands: why should it seem strange that God -- creator of the world and giver of life -- should raise the dead? And, these things were not done in a corner. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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AE, you said the same thing again. A supernatural event does not defy logic, it is not incoherent. Laws of nature are not laws of logic. Nor is an inductive inference able to determine something that must necessarily hold in all cases. And BTW if I saw a UFO an unquestionably alien abduction in progress at 20 ft range under conditions lighted for reading, I would believe it. So would any reasonable person. That's the difference; I was there, I know what I and others saw, I have interacted with the person up to last week. I am therefore seeing this as an opportunity to further understand how we respond to evidence, reports and the like when they do not sit comfortably with our expectations. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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LoL! @ hrun0815! Why hasn't anyone captured the magical mystery changes required by evolutionism? That phenomena stops immediately when scientists and laypeople start looking so the claim can be evaluated.Virgil Cain
March 2, 2016
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Re 58: These days every single football to the groin is captured by a cell phone or a GoPro. But god and demons are sly ones. The phenomena stops immediately as soon as it can be recorded for further evaluation.hrun0815
March 2, 2016
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Kairosfocus @50: "I notice, that you thought of the report of seeing phenomena as illogical and contrary to laws of physical science as quasi-synonymous." You are trying to put thoughts in my head that aren't there. I merely was saying that I would expect more evidence than a few eyewitnesses for events that cannot be explained logically AND defy physics. They are separate conditions, not synonymns. But I do have one question. Of the fifty people present, did not one have the presence of mind to whip out their iPhone and take some pictures? Or was the use of cameras expressly forbidden by the person presiding over the exorcism? If the latter, I would seriously question the motivation of the person in charge. There are well documented optical illusions and sleight of hand tricks that have a perfectly natural explanation but I would be willing to bet that you would not be able to identify it simply by observing. As I mentioned, I believe that you think what you saw was real. But I give it no more credence than UFO abductions or mind reading, both of which have a plethora of eyewitness accounts. I am not saying that all of these are impossible, just that they are on the same level of credibility. Before you could convince me, I would require far more evidence than eye witness accounts. Your categorizing of anyone who questions levitation as hyper-skepticism is simply a lame attempt to stifle discussion. Questioning eye witness claims of levitation, mind reading and UFO abductions without any other supporting evidence is reasonable and rational. Questioning things is how we gain knowledge.Algorithm Eh
March 2, 2016
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DS, I can understand your struggle with this one. However, the circumstances are such that a limp body of someone in what is called a dead faint simply does not behave as the one I and others saw did (note to VJT, not all of the 50 present were in a position to see, and no attention was drawn to the spectacle . . . unsurprisingly). KF PS: I would to God that such were ordinary phenomena. The White Rose movement, however, gives us some sobering counsel on our tendencies in such regards.kairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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KF,
DS, that eyewitnesses do make mistakes does not disqualify all such testimony, nor does it give license to be dismissive to suit one’s preferences.
I don't think that I'm being dismissive. I do believe it's likely there is a more mundane explanation for what you saw, although I can't rule out the possibility that you are correct.
I add that, shortly after the events in question, I checked a very senior person here on whether such phenomena were known. I learned that half century and more past unwanted and frightening incidents of poltergeist phenomena and the like (tied to deep rooted widespread folk level occult involvement via things like jumbie dances) were sufficiently common to draw the attention and efforts of significant church leaders; who were concerned over ill advised amateurish attempts to deal with such, that only compounded the problems.
My wife's pastor has spoken of several incidents of demonic possession he has witnessed firsthand. He is someone I trust just as much as an immediate family member. And while I recognize the possibility that he is right about these possessions, I would wager any amount of money that they don't actually involve any "supernatural" phenomena.daveS
March 2, 2016
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Hi StepehenB, Thank you for your post. You write:
Again, it is not clear to me why God’s omniscience needs to be informed about our free choices in order for us to have free will. To know (without being informed by him) that Judas will betray Christ is not to cause the event.
I would answer that if we consider the Gettier problem, it becomes apparent that knowledge requires justification, and that means that there must be a causal relationship between the knower and what is known. Thus A's claim to know that p is only legitimate if A causes p to occur (i.e. A determines p) or p causes A to know that p (i.e. p determines A's knowledge of p). Since I am not a determinist of any stripe (physical or theological), I am forced to conclude that if God knows our free choices, then God's knowledge of our choices must be caused by (i.e. logically but not temporally subsequent to) those choices. I can see no other alternative.vjtorley
March 2, 2016
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Hi kairosfocus, For my part, I would like to say that I have no trouble believing your story of the levitation that you and 50 other people witnessed. I also have no trouble believing in demonic intelligences. This should be obvious to any thinking person, even arguing on purely secular grounds. After all, there's a good chance that if intelligent beings like ourselves exist, then other intelligent beings do, too. Some of them would be far ahead of us, mentally speaking, so invisibility would not be a problem for them. The same goes for levitation. Some of these beings would be good and some would be evil, or demonic. The commenters who pronounced your story incredible need to open their minds.vjtorley
March 2, 2016
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F/N 2: I looked up who he is and the most relevant finding I see (apart from some Catholic books) is Reppert: >>Saturday, March 17, 2012 http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2012/03/r-d-miksas-blog-on-taking-over-outsider.html R D Miksa's blog on taking over the outsider test for faith Here is the blog. Miksa argues that the OTF, properly interpreted, supports theism, supernaturalism, and intelligent design. The central issue surrounding the OTF is whether Loftus is justified in putting nonbelief in a special, default category, or whether it is just one more position on the intellectual map, as it were. That's what the Outsider Perspective is supposed to be about. Otherwise I can go outside of Christianity by taking an Islamic perspective, or outside of Buddhism by taking a Christian perspective. Or I get get outside the atheist perspective by taking a Christian point of view. But there is no question of getting completely outside, in other words, off the intellectual map entirely. You can go outside of here by going there, but you are still going to be somewhere. Wherever you go, there you are. On the other hand, Loftus isn't just talking about getting outside of where you are to start from somewhere else to see what happens as a thought experiment. Rather, he thinks that the modern scientistic nonbeliever's position just is the Outsider Perspective, and as such it deserves a default status. Unless a religious view can justify itself to someone who adopts that perspective, then it ought not to be believed. But there is no corresponding evidential requirement that falls upon the atheist. One is only justified in getting inside a religious position unless you can justify yourself to The Outsider (with or without the hat). My criticisms amount to the claim that it's a fudge to put the nonbeliever in that kind of privileged position. Posted by Victor Reppert at 3:20 PM>> Reppert has a point. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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F/N: I do not know who R D Miksa is or why he would be termed a leading supporter of ID, but per Google, the clip above comes from him, here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-evidence-is/#comment-550891 I took it up here, and quote in context, adjusted for readability:
RDM, 25: . . . the ironic thing to note in terms of comments from the anti-super-naturalist side is how they fail to realize that their very own arguments undermine their own naturalistic position. Indeed, note their use of the poorly-formulated but often used mantra “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Note how this mantra is used to claim–in the context of this discussion–how it is apparently more rational to believe that hundreds of witnesses hallucinated or colluded or lied rather than believe that a man levitated. But the problem is, such an argument can be turned right back on the naturalistic. For example, consider that the biological realm reeks of the appearance of intentional design, as many naturalists themselves admit. But naturalists deny this and claim that neo-Darwinian evolution is reasonable. But this is an extraordinary claim. After all, just like with levitation, I have never seen one type of organism change into another type. I have never seen molecules change into animals than conscious men. But then the naturalists will say that scientists have looked at the evidence and have inferred that neo-Darwinian theory is the best explanation of the evidence at hand. But suddenly, I retort: What’s more likely, that molecules evolved into men without design, something that no one has ever seen, or that 1) the scientists are lying due to a naturalistic prejudice and/or that 2) scientists are mistaken about their inference, and/or 3) that the scientists are biased in favor of naturalism and this unconsciously skews their interpretation of the evidence, and/or that 4) all the scientists are colluded together to promote evolution to keep their jobs, and/or that 5) people are sometimes honestly mistaken in their inferential efforts and that is probably the case with these scientists, and so on and so forth. So, it is clearly more likely that [there] is a problem on the part of the scientists rather than that our uniform and repeated empirical evidence that species do not evolve into other species is wrong. And since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I am perfectly rational to not believe in the extraordinary claim that is neo-Darwinian evolution. [ –> NB, March 1: Following up from comment 37 below, a more formal, detailed presentation in a paper by RDM is to be found here. KF]
I trust this context from almost precisely a year past will be helpful. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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PS: Greenleaf: >> Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [–> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]>>kairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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AE, I suggest that so routine a phenomenon as responsibly free, rational mind -- a precondition for logic and physics as a discipline of logic -- is inexplicable on the presuppositions of evolutionary materialist scientism. Indeed, this last reveals itself as self-referentially incoherent and self-falsifying, thus utterly irrational. Cf 14 above for a start. I notice, that you thought of the report of seeing phenomena as illogical and contrary to laws of physical science as quasi-synonymous. I suggest, that such laws are empirical generalisations of what obtains under widely observed commonplace circumstances. But as C S Lewis once observed, if one puts sixpence in a drawer then six pennies and returns at a later date to inexplicably find only two pence, one does not judge that the laws of nature have failed. Only, the laws of England have been violated. That seems to be at work here. Laws of nature are generalisations on common phenomena and hold in themselves the status of inductive or abductive explanatory generalisations. They have the implicit premise, IF certain preconditions obtain, then the following results will occur. They cannot address rare exceptions to typical patterns nor cases where preconditions do not obtain. It is at least logically possible for different orders of intelligent and active beings to exist that can act into our world by means of phenomena we do not understand. We ought not exclude such a priori, especially by imposing a frame of thought that is itself dubious and indefensible. Patently, invisible means of support are not inherently confined to maglev or fine braided high strength wires more commonly used in fishing or the like. What is illogical, is to refuse reasonable testimony of the senses under circumstances conducive to good seeing. Seeing a body at 15 - 20 ft range is not an extraordinary experience, nor is seeing the tiled floor under an elevated body. Nor, is seeing someone in a dead faint and recognising the utter dead weight limpness manifested thereby. Etc. Likewise, to eat two suppers with a friend and leader is utterly commonplace. 2,000 years ago in Palestine, betrayal to death was not unusual, nor were kangaroo courts and judicial murder of inconvenient figures. Frankly, that still happens. Burials are a common phenomenon, and burials usually accord with the customs of a time and place. Guards to defend against possible raids are well known. That followers of a leader betrayed to death by judicial murder would be in great fear and despair is obvious. That at that time and place women would be by and large exempt from state violence, is understandable. Likewise, people commonly know which events succeed which in a timeline. None of these phenomena by themselves would be extraordinary. It is the circumstances that logically integrate the observations into a timeline or overall situation that imply something unusual, not in accord with undisturbed nature. Resurrection of Jesus, as the second supper was after his judicial murder and burial. Likewise, strange phenomena connected with exorcisms witnessed by many. What we really have here is a worldviews clash over what sort of entities exist in reality and what therefore is possible by means we may not understand. And of course Cliffordian evidentialism and hyperskepticism fall before the corrected premise: extraordinary phenomena/claims require ADEQUATE evidence if belief in them is to be rational and responsible. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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DS, that eyewitnesses do make mistakes does not disqualify all such testimony, nor does it give license to be dismissive to suit one's preferences. That would destroy the legal system, our ability to learn from history (a vital source of hard-bought guidance paid for in blood and tears), management and the practice of science; which last depends on the trust in lab/field reports to by and large be credible never mind the problems with "cooking" and with inadequate peer review etc. I add that, shortly after the events in question, I checked a very senior person here on whether such phenomena were known. I learned that half century and more past unwanted and frightening incidents of poltergeist phenomena and the like (tied to deep rooted widespread folk level occult involvement via things like jumbie dances) were sufficiently common to draw the attention and efforts of significant church leaders; who were concerned over ill advised amateurish attempts to deal with such, that only compounded the problems. So, I understand the recent moves to improve training and skills of exorcists in the Roman Catholic Church, and the willingness of the current pontiff to personally engage the matter. Such things are now apparently happily much rarer here. In my native land, it is much the same, and the Haitian contingent in the same local church I spoke of earlier . . . we sometimes have to have bilingual/trilingual services and I recall a wedding in which a young bride, freshly arrived from Haiti, declared a world of cultural intent when she answered the French version of her vows in her intended new language, English: "I will!" . . . are sufficiently personally familiar with phenomena of this order that they have a sort of general understanding of how one deals with such cases and what to expect. (English, French and Haitian Creole; Spanish and the Jamaican Creole are also now significant here too.) Medical and nursing practitioners in this region are often sufficiently familiar with possession or oppression phenomena -- as distinct from mere mental illness -- that they will make the recommendation, this case needs a good parson or priest. Sometimes, both medical and spiritual interventions are needed. Not to mention social worker type interventions. So, the world seems to be stranger than we oftentimes imagine. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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AE, I suggest the person gave a metaphor and comparison. I would suggest the reasonable reading is: there is an implied context that such change of life form has not been seen by blind chance and mechanical necessity. If the FSCO/I in life forms is a strong sign of design (a view that a design theory supporter would most likely agree with), then patently a designer could in principle change one form to another by various means -- including front-loading the genome to evolve under certain conditions, insertions and deletions by programmed viri, lab action and other possible means. Notice, Behe, a leading design theorist, evidently holds to universal common descent. Wallace, co founder of the modern evolutionary theory held to a view of directing intelligence targetting the creation of man, as can be seen in his The World of Life. As a point of readily accessible reference, Venter et al are already doing minor scale engineering of life forms. The Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth, for instance, or the translocation of Philip the Evangelist as recorded by Luke are not offered as unusual natural phenomena. Nor (in a very different context) would be cases that have been seen in modern times. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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HRUN, Personalising and twisting to dismiss again. I simply report what I witnessed in the company of some fifty people under conditions conducive to sufficiently good viewing to read text. I make no claims that such is "science." It is sadly interesting to see the reactions to what cuts across presuppositions. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2016
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Hi VJ. thanks for your response. You write,
..although God needs to be informed by His creatures about their free choices, this is only because He has willed it that way, in order to give us libertarian freedom.
Again, it is not clear to me why God's omniscience needs to be informed about our free choices in order for us to have free will. To know (without being informed by him) that Judas will betray Christ is not to cause the event. Judas' free act is, it seems to me, completely independent of God's ability to know that it will happen. If Judas had chosen a better course, God would have known that as well.StephenB
March 1, 2016
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KairosFocus, how do you reconcile your claims about the validity of levitation with this statement by a leading ID proponent? "After all, just like with levitation, I have never seen one type of organism change into another type." This person appears to place levitation on the same unlikely level as one organism changing into another type. You both cant be correct.Algorithm Eh
March 1, 2016
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HRUN (attn Roy), the OP and thread of discussion on the contrary to your insinuations, inadvertently reveal that no reasonable degree of evidence, observation or report with analysis will move the determined objector locked into a system that a priori rules out what is reported or produced by analysis. The root problem is not science but philosophy. KF
Yes, yes, yes. Because everyone knows that it's science when KF or some other eyewitnesses claim some dude started floating when he heard a random name. Clearly this means that god decided that was worthy of messing about with gravity for a bit. It's just like all them irrefutable eyewitness accounts of Big Foot and Alien Abductions! Only those stubborn philosophical doubters prevent science from finally admitting what's real.hrun0815
March 1, 2016
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