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Feet to the fire: A response to Dr. Stacy Trasancos

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Stacy Trasancos, a homeschooling mother of seven with a Ph.D. in chemistry and an M.A. in Dogmatic Theology who is an Adjunct Professor at Holy Apostles College and Seminary, has penned a thoughtful essay over at the Catholic One Faith blog titled, Does Science Prove God Exists? Her answer, in a nutshell, is that while science can provide inductive support for the existence of a Creator, only theology can provide deductive arguments for God’s existence. In any case, we shouldn’t need to prop up our belief in God with scientific arguments. Dr. Trasancos rejects the view that some scientific conclusions are compatible with God’s existence, while others are not. Christians, she says, should start from the fundamental notion that God made everything, and then proceed to view scientific findings in the light of faith.

There is much wisdom in Dr. Trasancos’s brief but profound essay, which is written in a warm and engaging style. She is surely correct when she contends that science cannot provide us with deductive arguments for the existence of God; the most it can do is provide evidence which is best explained by positing the existence of a Transcendent Intelligence, Who designed the laws that govern our cosmos, so as to make it able to support embodied, intelligent life-forms (e.g. human beings). That’s the conclusion argued for by Dr. Robin Collins in his widely cited essay, The Teleological Argument, which infers God’s existence from the fine-tuning of the cosmos. (Biological versions of the argument from design are far more modest, as Intelligent Design proponent Professor Michael Behe publicly stated as far back as 2001: “Possible candidates for the role of designer include: the God of Christianity; an angel — fallen or not; Plato’s demiurge; some mystical New Age force; space aliens from Alpha Centauri; time travelers; or some utterly unknown intelligent being.”)

Could science falsify belief in God?

She is mistaken, however, when she pooh-poohs the notion that “some scientific conclusions are compatible with the idea that God exists and others are not.” This, I have to say, is nonsense. Suppose that science were to establish that determinism is true. If that were the case, then there can be no freedom and hence no moral agency. As Cambridge philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe put it in her Inaugural Lecture as Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University in 1971, titled Causality and Determination: “My actions are mostly physical movements; if these physical movements are physically predetermined by processes which I do not control, then my freedom is perfectly illusory. The truth of physical indeterminism is then indispensable if we are to make anything of the claim to freedom.” Likewise, there can be no good grounds for belief in God, in a universe where my thoughts are physically determined – for as philosopher Alvin Plantinga has pointed out, what guarantee would there be, in such a universe, that my reasoning on purely metaphysical matters (as opposed to practical problems) could even be trusted? Similarly, there would be no room for God’s existence if science were to establish that we live in an infinite multiverse of the kind postulated by Max Tegmark, where every logical possibility is realized in some universe. On such a scenario, choices could never matter, since whenever I am confronted with a choice to do X or not do X, there will always be a world in which I do it, and another world in which I don’t. Or again, suppose that science were to prove that time travel is possible. Such a discovery would be profoundly atheistic in its implications, as it would violate the notion of causality – and hence, overthrow the notion of a First Cause. Finally, the discovery of a naked singularity would destroy the very notion of causality – and wreak havoc with science itself, as experiments conducted in the vicinity of such a singularity would no longer be replicable.

Science in the light of faith

With regard to Dr. Trasancos’s suggestion that Christians should view scientific findings in the light of faith, I have no quarrel with this way of proceeding. It was St. Anselm of Canterbury, after all, who famously declared, “I believe in order that I may understand,” and in a similar vein, C.S. Lewis wrote: “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” What I reject, however, is Dr. Trasancos’s implied assumption that faith should always be a starting point for viewing scientific discoveries. I would maintain that there are some discoveries that boost faith (e.g the discovery that even the multiverse must have had a beginning), just as there are some potential discoveries that would weaken or even destroy it. For my part, I identify more with Peter Abelard, who declared: “I understand in order that I may believe.”

Dr. Trasancos adds: “Seeing science in the light of faith is an all-or-none proposition. Either it all bespeaks the wonder of the Creator, or none of it does.” Yes, but some parts of God’s creation point to God much more clearly than others. A religious person will see God’s glory in the “unimaginable, ineffable order and symmetry” of Nature, which Dr. Trasancos writes about so eloquently – everything “from stars to dandelions down to the smallest particles of matter.” But a hard-nosed atheist will ask why order could not simply be a basic feature of the cosmos. If I were trying to convince an atheist of the existence of a Creator, I would point to something far more convincing, like the ATP synthase enzyme shown in this 86-second Youtube video by creation.com. Any unbiased viewer can see at once that ATP synthase is the product of design:

The inference to design here is obvious. As chemist Jonathan Sarfati explains in another video, entitled Evolution Vs ATP Synthase – Molecular Machine:

You couldn’t have life unless you had this motor to produce the energy currency, so it looks like this motor must have been there right from the beginning, and I’d say that because this motor is so much better, so much tinier and more efficient than anything we can design, … the Designer of the motor is far more intelligent than any motor designer we have today too.

Scientific proofs for God: what one Pope said

I might add that Pope Pius XII was firmly convinced that science could establish the existence of God. Here’s a brief quote from his address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on November 22, 1951, titled “The Proofs For The Existence Of God In The Light Of Modern Natural Science”.

2. In fact, according to the measure of its progress, and contrary to affirmations advanced in the past, true science discovers God in an ever-increasing degree – as though God were waiting behind every door opened by science.

44. It is undeniable that when a mind enlightened and enriched with modern scientific knowledge weighs this problem calmly, it feels drawn to break through the circle of completely independent or autochthonous matter, whether uncreated or self-created, and to ascend to a creating Spirit. With the same clear and critical look with which it examines and passes judgment on facts, it perceives and recognizes the work of creative omnipotence, whose power, set in motion by the mighty “Fiat” pronounced billions of years ago by the Creating Spirit, spread out over the universe, calling into existence with a gesture of generous love matter busting with energy. In fact, it would seem that present-day science, with one sweeping step back across millions of centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to that primordial “Fiat lux” uttered at the moment when, along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, while the particles of chemical elements split and formed into millions of galaxies…

49. What, then, is the importance of modern science for the argument for the existence of God based on the mutability of the cosmos? By means of exact and detailed research into the macrocosm and the microcosm, it has considerably broadened and deepened the empirical foundation on which this argument rests, and from which it concludes to the existence of an Ens a se, immutable by His very nature.

50. It has, besides, followed the course and the direction of cosmic developments, and, just as it was able to get a glimpse of the term toward which these developments were inexorably leading, so also has it pointed to their beginning in time some five billion years ago. Thus, with that concreteness which is characteristic of physical proofs, it has confirmed the contingency of the universe and also the well-founded deduction as to the epoch when the cosmos came forth from the hands of the Creator.

51. Hence, creation took place in time. Therefore, there is a Creator. Therefore, God exists! Although it is neither explicit nor complete, this is the reply we were awaiting from science, and which the present human generation is awaiting from it…

52. The knowledge of God as sole Creator, now shared by many modern scientists, is indeed, the extreme limit to which human reason can attain. Nevertheless, as you are well aware, it does not constitute the last frontier of truth. In harmonious cooperation, because all three are instruments of truth, like rays of the same sun, science, philosophy, and, with still greater reason, Revelation, contemplate the substance of this Creator whom science has met along its path unveil His outlines and point out His features. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Dr. Trasancos’s remarks on Intelligent Design are, I have to say, misinformed. She writes: “Others point to ‘Intelligent Design’ where they decide intelligent design must exist and call that proof that an Intelligent Designer must exist, a most circular form of reasoning.” In all my years as an Intelligent Design advocate, I have never met an ID proponent who argued in such a circular fashion. The New World Encyclopedia defines the logic of Intelligent Design clearly and succinctly: “ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent.” More specifically: “The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.” (Discovery Institute, FAQs about Intelligent Design.) No circularity there!

Feet to the fire: A thought experiment

Nevertheless, Dr. Trasancos’s objection to the need for Intelligent Design-style arguments needs to be taken seriously. She asks: if theology can provide us with deductive arguments which establish the existence of God with absolute certitude, why should we need scientific arguments to buttress our belief in God, given that the inductive arguments provided by science are of vastly inferior quality to theological arguments? I’d like to answer that question, by inviting my readers to imagine the following hypothetical scenario.

Imagine that the country where you live is taken over by an atheistic madman whose avowed aim is to stamp out religious faith of any kind. The madman issues an order requiring all citizens to publicly profess atheism, or suffer the torture of having their feet held to the fire until they either recant or die. The madman is also very good at spotting liars, and he decrees that anyone he catches lying when they make their profession of atheism will face an even more terrible fate: that of being hung, drawn and quartered, along with all their family members. You, of course, believe in God, and you refuse to accede to the madman’s demand that you publicly professing atheism, so he sentences you to be tortured. As you ponder your impending fate of being slowly roasted to death from the feet upwards, you ask yourself whether your faith in God will be strong enough to survive the ordeal, or whether it will destroy your faith and turn you into an atheist.

On the night before your ordeal by fire, you mentally review the arguments for God’s existence, for it will be these arguments that will support you in your time of trial. During your life, you have met a few people who have had a religious experience, and who claim to have been personally touched by God. Unfortunately, that has never happened to you: although you pray regularly, you have never heard the voice of God answering your prayers, or sensed His indwelling presence. Despite being a Christian, you have never had a personal experience of Divine grace in your entire life: your experience is one of lifelong silence from on high. That doesn’t bother you, as you are quietly confident that you will meet and commune with your Maker in the next world. However, your lack of any religious experience forces you to rely entirely on the arguments put forward for God’s existence. The question you have to ask yourself is: which of these arguments will sustain your faith best, as your feet are being held to the fire?

It might seem that the deductive, metaphysical arguments for God’s existence would offer the surest support for your faith, and that the inductive – or rather, abductive – arguments provided by science offer a very weak support for belief in God. But it occurs to you that even the deductive arguments are not based on indubitable premises – and you are quite sure that you will have doubts aplenty, as the flames lick your feet and you ask yourself: “Do I really want to go through with this?”

The cosmological arguments for God’s existence all assume that whatever exists must have an adequate explanation for its existence – either from within its nature or from something outside it, which maintains it in existence. That sounds reasonable enough – but you realize that the contrary view, that the existence of certain things (e.g. the universe as a whole, or quantum fields) is an inexplicable brute fact (as Bertrand Russell maintained), is not obviously contradictory. Some Scholastic philosophers have argued that explanations resting on an ultimate “brute fact” cannot really explain anything at all, which would imply that scientific explanations are a big charade if the cosmos itself turns out to be a brute fact. Science, in other words, presupposes the Principle of Sufficient Reason. However, being a widely read person, you are also well aware that there are atheistic scientists who argue that the task of science is merely to systematize our observations by accounting for them in the simplest possible manner, and that the universe itself requires no external explanation: it exists, and that’s all one can say. Of course, you know that there are excellent grounds for believing the universe to be contingent: it appears to be composite, and nothing about it appears to be necessary: it doesn’t have to be the way it is. But a nagging voice in your head asks: “Can I even prove that the notion of a Necessary Being makes sense? And exactly what kind of necessity are we attributing to God, anyway?” (You know perfectly well that even theistic philosophers differ in their accounts of Divine necessity: some maintain that God’s existence is logically necessary, others define God as a self-explanatory Being, while yet others propose a more modest definition: God is the kind of Being Which, if He exists, requires nothing outside Himself in order to exist – which would make God independent, but leave His existence a profound mystery.) You wonder whether the cosmological argument alone will be enough to sustain your faith in God, as the flames lick your feet, and you soberly conclude: probably it won’t.

Other doubts trouble you, too. Even if you could be 100% sure of the existence of an Uncaused Cause which is necessary and which doesn’t require anything outside itself to actualize its capacities, it is another thing altogether to claim that this cause is an intelligent personal Agent. Many philosophers have argued that the tendencies of various kinds of things – be they fields, particles, chemical substances or organisms – to act in a regular, lawlike fashion indicates that their behavior is somehow goal-directed, and that the notion of goal-directed behavior makes no sense unless there is an Intelligence which governs all things and directs them towards their built-in ends. (This is the conclusion of Aquinas’s Fifth Way.) You find these arguments very reasonable, because they help you make sense of the order you find in Nature: indeed, it would be difficult for you to account for the laws of Nature in any other fashion. However, you’re also aware that some Thomist philosophers find Aquinas’s Fifth Way less than convincing, and you also have problems with some contemporary defenses of the Fifth Way, which you have read. You are not unduly perturbed by these difficulties; indeed, you think the Fifth Way can be successfully revamped in a way that surmounts them. But in the end, you realize that the whole force of the argument depends on a particular way of looking at the world, and you wonder whether you will be able to keep looking at the world in that way, as your feet are held to the fire. You realize that you will need something more to sustain you.

Your anxieties increase when you consider the sloppy arguments put forward by philosophers to establish God’s infinitude – a particularly vital Divine attribute, as a finite being would not be worthy of worship. The Scholastic axiom that act can only be limited by potency (which would entail that a Being Who is Pure Act must perforce be infinite) has always struck you as doubtful, as some actual properties (e.g. triangularity) seem to be limited by their very definition. Neither are you impressed by the argument that a Being Who is Pure Act must contain all perfections, for although it is obvious that such a Being can contain no imperfections, it doesn’t follow that it must contain all perfections within its nature. Of course, you recognize that a Necessary Being cannot be composed of parts; hence its essence must be identical with its act of existence. However, the inference that God, being Pure Existence, must contain (at least virtually) all possible perfections strikes you as logically flawed. For it is one thing to say that God is identical with His own act of existence; quite another to equate Him with “Pure Existence” – whatever that phrase means.

Most doubtful of all are the metaphysical arguments put forward by theists, in order to establish God’s goodness. The argument that a Being Who is Pure Act must be perfectly good, because it is Being Itself, leaves you cold. The vital question, as far as you are concerned, is not whether God is “good” in the sense of being perfect, but whether He is “good” in the sense of being all-loving – and more particularly, whether such an all-loving Being loves you personally, as an individual. For a Being Who did not love you personally would not be worth dying for.

Weighing up these deductive arguments, you feel dissatisfied, and sense that you will need something more to get you through the fearful ordeal that awaits you. At this low point in your theological reflections, science comes to the rescue. You recall that there are other, independent arguments for the existence of God which do not rely on metaphysics, but are empirically based. These scientific arguments do not pretend to establish the existence of the God of classical theism, for they do not go that far; nor do they offer the certitude provided by a deductive argument, for their logic is abductive, proceeding by way of inference to the best explanation. Despite these deficiencies, however, you find that the arguments fortify the thin metaphysical arguments of Scholastic theology. Where the metaphysical arguments are weak, the scientific arguments are strong, and vice versa. The metaphysical arguments are more rigorous, but you find yourself wondering if the philosophical axioms which they rest on are really true. They are rational, but by no means indubitable. The scientific arguments, on the other hand, strike you as far more accessible and less open to doubt, precisely because they are purely empirical in nature. While they are not as certain as the rigorous metaphysical arguments for an Uncaused Cause and a Necessary Being, you find that they are more convincing, because accepting the truth of their premises requires no metaphysical commitments on your part: the science speaks for itself. You realize, of course, that these scientific arguments might turn out to be wrong: perhaps the apparent fine-tuning of the cosmos is merely a reflection of our current scientific ignorance, and physicists of the 22nd century will laugh it off. But you live in the 21st century, and based on what you currently know, it seems pretty likely to you that the universe (and for that matter, the multiverse) is fine-tuned to support life, and that the fine-tuning was intended as a signal by the Creator to His intelligent creatures, to make us aware of His existence. You also review the biological arguments for Intelligent Design – especially those based on protein folds and the astronomical improbability of even a simple life-form – a replication and translation system – arising through undirected processes. Some scientists have proposed the existence of an infinite multiverse to get round those difficulties, but you realize that this proposal won’t work either. While the biological arguments for Intelligent Design don’t establish the existence of a Cosmic Creator, they do point to the existence of a being capable of creating digital codes in the DNA of organisms. A being capable of creating a code would presumably also be capable of using language. That points to the existence of a Creator Who can talk to us, if He wishes to.

The argument from miracles also impresses you. There have been many miracles recorded throughout history, but perhaps the most carefully documented one, which leaves very little room for doubt, relates to the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino (for more details, see this article here and see my posts here and here). An article written by a modern biographer, Michael Grosso, summarizes the evidence for St. Joseph’s levitations as follows:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation; and then decided it was enough…

…[T]he Church progressively tried to make him retreat to the most obscure corners of the Adriatic coast, ending finally under virtual house arrest in a small monastic community at Osimo. There was no decline effect in Joseph’s strange aerial behaviors; during his last six years in Osimo he was left alone to plunge into his interior life; the records are unanimous in saying that the ratti (raptures) were in abundance right up until his dying days. The cleric in charge of the community swore that he witnessed Joseph levitate to the ceiling of his cell thousands of times.

What impresses you about this evidence is that like the scientific arguments pointing to God’s existence, it is purely empirical: the evidence speaks for itself. To repudiate the evidence for St. Joseph’s levitations, one would have to assume colossal mendacity and/or unbelievable stupidity on the part of thousands of people who witnessed these levitations. While the evidence does not establish the existence of the God of classical theism, it is worth noting that what typically prompted St. Joseph’s levitations was hearing the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint: this was enough to make him go into an ecstasy and remain floating in the air for several hours. Evidence like this not only points to the existence of God, but of a highly personal God, Who cares about individuals like you.

A final fact which impresses you very greatly is the existence of subjective self-awareness. Although you are not given to religious experiences, you recall that yesterday, you walked down the street in the afternoon sunshine, and marveled at the beauty of it all – and at the fact that you were able to enjoy that beauty. Viewed from a purely naturalistic perspective, the existence of any consciousness, anywhere in the world (let alone the self-consciousness which you enjoy) is a surprising fact – one which we have no reason to expect. A “survival machine” doesn’t need to be conscious: it just needs to make the right moves. From a theistic perspective, on the other hand, the existence of consciousness makes perfect sense: one would expect a personal Creator to make beings who were capable of knowing and loving their Creator (as well as each other), if He were going to make a world at all.

Pondering these facts, you realize that you will have something to sustain you through your ordeal by fire, after all. You know that in your last moments on this earth, you will die screaming in agony – but because your faith in God is buttressed on many levels, the agony you endure will not destroy your conviction that the world has a Creator. And science will have helped, in no small way, to reinforce that conviction.

A closing thought from St. Thomas Aquinas

I’d like to close with a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic theologian whom I know Dr. Trasancos respects greatly. In his Summa Contra Gentiles Book III, chapter 99, paragraph 9 (That God Can Work Apart From The Order Implanted In Things, By Producing Effects Without Proximate Causes), Aquinas writes:

[D]ivine power can sometimes produce an effect, without prejudice to its providence, apart from the order implanted in natural things by God. In fact, He does this at times to manifest His power. For it can be manifested in no better way, that the whole of nature is subject to the divine will, than by the fact that sometimes He does something outside the order of nature. Indeed, this makes it evident that the order of things has proceeded from Him, not by natural necessity, but by free will.

Here, Aquinas says that God’s power and voluntary agency “can be manifested in no better way … than by the fact that He sometimes does something outside the order of nature.” I conclude that not all manifestations of God’s power are equally effective in manifesting the fact of His existence, and that certain kinds of evidence much stronger than others. Stars and dandelions are all very well and good, but I’m sure that St. Thomas Aquinas, were he alive today, would have had no qualms whatsoever about appealing to the best kind of we have empirical evidence from the natural world – molecules that require a Designer and miracles that manifest the existence of a supernatural Creator – in order to convince skeptics of God’s existence.

What do readers think?

Comments
God cannot know our thoughts and actions in future because if he did, He would surely stop murders, looting, rape etc.Me_Think
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Hi StephenB, Thank you for your post. You ask:
If God needs to be informed by His creatures about their thoughts and activities, it is hard to understand how He can, at the same time, be omniscient. Indeed, if God doesn’t know what humans will think before they think it, or what they will do before they do it, how could there be such a thing as Biblical prophecy, which would require something much more–the ability to know the effects of every thought and every action of every human being who ever lived. Without that power, how could Christ know that Judas was going to betray him? How could God know that Christ would be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, on the appointed day?
Good question. My answer is that: (a) God's knowledge of our free choices is timeless, like that of a watcher on a high hill, to borrow a metaphor from Boethius. Hence there is never a time when God does not know what we are doing. God's knowledge of our chocies is logically posterior to those choices but not temporally posterior; (b) although God needs to be informed by His creatures about their free choices, this is only because He has willed it that way, in order to give us libertarian freedom. Hence there is no loss of dignity on God's part; (c) of couse, I reject the view of Open Theism, that God does not know the future. Such a view is heretical. I hope that addresses your concerns, and those of rhampton7.vjtorley
March 1, 2016
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I agree with StephenB, re: #37rhampton7
March 1, 2016
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KF,
DS, you were not there; those of us who were know what we saw with normally functioning eyes under circumstances conducive to accurate vision in a hall lighted with typical 4 ft Fluorescent 40 W tubes for reading text. While I could not use a tape measure, I saw and made by-eye estimates that are good enough to make the point. Where, no extraordinary visual performance is required to see a floor and a gap between a floor and an object above it, here with head lolling back and arms hanging limply. The circumstances also indicated a dead faint, consistent with a conversation long after the fact. KF
Well, wouldn't most eyewitnesses to such alleged events be able to say roughly the same? And yet they make mistakes all the time. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. As I said, people close to me have related stories much more dramatic than yours to me (objects flying around a house, television sets being taken over by demons, etc.). And one of these people is now my wife! Her story was second-hand, but both she and the first-hand witness are completely sane and normal.daveS
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Kairosfocus: HRUN (attn Roy), the OP and thread of discussion on the contrary to your insinuations, inadvertently reveal that no reasonable degree of evidence, observation or report with analysis will move the determined objector locked into a system that a priori rules out what is reported or produced by analysis. The root problem is not science but philosophy. KF With respect, I don't think that this is necessarily true. What I think Hrun and DS are saying, one more tactfully than the other, is that people are going to be far more skeptical of eye witness accounts of things that defy logic and physics than they will of things that can be clearly explained. I must admit that I am highly skeptical of your levitation example. Not because I think that you are lying, but simply because people can be easily deceived, especially when what they think they are seeing is consistent with their beliefs. As a very devout Christian you are going to be more easily convinced of the levitation that you describe than you will of the thousands of eye witness accounts of UFO sightings, and the hundreds of accounts of UFO abductions.Algorithm Eh
March 1, 2016
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GG, obviously I could answer who, what, where, when, why, how and aftermath with onward developments down to this very week involving dozens of people of my acquaintance. But I cannot responsibly do so out of respect, confidentiality of the innocent and concern, especially in a public forum subject to hostile scrutiny and in a context where some of such have already given signs of hate-driven unhinged on the ground stalking even of people several degrees removed from me.
Yes KF, these days there is a large amount of this sort of thing in the news: Woman pleads guilty in exorcism murders of 2 kids: http://legacy.wusa9.com/story/news/local/2015/01/16/monifa-sanford-exorcism-murders-montgomery-county-md/21860609/ Bob Larson EXPOSED on Anderson Cooper Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr-4FAi_vZUGaryGaulin
March 1, 2016
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VJ. Thanks for an interesting thought experiment. As usual, you cover a lot of ground and bring many critical issues into focus. I do have two areas of concern: You write,
A Self-Moved First Mover – or more precisely, a Self-Actualizing First Actualizer -could still be (timelessly) actualized by the creatures it maintains in existence, if it chose to endow creatures with the power to actualize their Creator.
Wouldn’t the Creator have to maintain the creature’s power to actualize, just as He maintains the creatures power to exist? Wouldn't that mean that the creature is totally dependent on the Creator for that same power? Under the circumstances, it would seem that the creature is not really the cause of the actualizing. Yes, humans have free will to interact with God, but that does not give them Divine power. Accordingly, it seems impossible that an eternal and all powerful Creator could endow a creature with the power to actualize God. Could the infinite Creator endow a finite creature with the power to maintain His omnipotence or omniscience? If not, then why would the power to actualize be any different? The creature, by definition, began to exist in time and cannot, therefore, do anything outside of time.
Feser evidently thinks that it would be contrary to God’s sovereignty for Him to need to be informed by His own creatures of their activities; whereas I would argue that if God has freely chosen to give creatures the power to inform Him of their activities in this way, then there is no loss of sovereignty on God’s part.
This would seem to present a problem. If God needs to be informed by His creatures about their thoughts and activities, it is hard to understand how He can, at the same time, be omniscient. Indeed, if God doesn’t know what humans will think before they think it, or what they will do before they do it, how could there be such a thing as Biblical prophecy, which would require something much more--the ability to know the effects of every thought and every action of every human being who ever lived. Without that power, how could Christ know that Judas was going to betray him? How could God know that Christ would be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, on the appointed day? I would argue that God's knowledge of a future event is independent of any decision to make that event happen. Just because God knows the stock market will crash doesn’t mean that He caused it.StephenB
March 1, 2016
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Sane, generally reliable people make mistakes all the time without realizing it. Even the most careful observer can be a poor eyewitness at times. I have disbelieved a number of things that were told to me by people I have known for decades and consider quite trustworthy.
Yes, I onced believed that Darwinian evolution was true. The number of people who could be call sane, reliable and trustworthy who have said this was true and obvious are in the tens of millions. And all turned out to be poor eyewitnesses of reality.jerry
March 1, 2016
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HRUN (attn Roy), the OP and thread of discussion on the contrary to your insinuations, inadvertently reveal that no reasonable degree of evidence, observation or report with analysis will move the determined objector locked into a system that a priori rules out what is reported or produced by analysis. The root problem is not science but philosophy. KFkairosfocus
March 1, 2016
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DS, you were not there; those of us who were know what we saw with normally functioning eyes under circumstances conducive to accurate vision in a hall lighted with typical 4 ft Fluorescent 40 W tubes for reading text. While I could not use a tape measure, I saw and made by-eye estimates that are good enough to make the point. Where, no extraordinary visual performance is required to see a floor and a gap between a floor and an object above it, here with head lolling back and arms hanging limply. The circumstances also indicated a dead faint, consistent with a conversation long after the fact. KFkairosfocus
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Sane, generally reliable people make mistakes all the time without realizing it. Even the most careful observer can be a poor eyewitness at times. I have disbelieved a number of things that were told to me by people I have known for decades and consider quite trustworthy.daveS
March 1, 2016
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When devotees of Scientism (such as hrun0815, apparently?) hear unambiguous eyewitness testimony from someone who is obviously not insane, and who shows every indication of being a reliable truth-teller and not given to making stuff up, ...
This is the same guy whose propagates creationist misquotes.Roy
March 1, 2016
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Threads such as this one are a fabulous manifestation of just how serious and scientific ID is. The only threads more illustrative are the YEC posts or anything by PAV.hrun0815
March 1, 2016
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GG, obviously I could answer who, what, where, when, why, how and aftermath with onward developments down to this very week involving dozens of people of my acquaintance. But I cannot responsibly do so out of respect, confidentiality of the innocent and concern, especially in a public forum subject to hostile scrutiny and in a context where some of such have already given signs of hate-driven unhinged on the ground stalking even of people several degrees removed from me. (Surely, you know or could easily know that.) Further, if what is already on the table or is available with modest effort is not enough, I have no reason to believe that any reasonable quantum of details or evidence will suffice to move determined objectors. I have given what is quite sufficient to add to a cloud of witnesses and that which is enough to open up the test for each of us. Once to every man and nation . . . KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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PPS: Ari put truth thusly: to say of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not . . .kairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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GG, with all due respect you need to look at the issue of critically aware grounding of views, ways and means starting with logic and epistemology informed by ethics [three of the half dozen or so main branches of philosophy, the root academic/ intellectual discipline you would despise]. You seem to be caught up in a dismissive scientism that refuses to answer to meta issues . . . leading you to being perilously close to what Solomon warns against, despising insight, knowledge and instruction. In the course of this discussion, it is plain that religion etc have become loaded terms of contemptuous rhetorical dismissal. You therefore need to understand, first, that evolutionary materialist scientism -- as was already highlighted from Pearcey (cf. 14 above) -- is hopelessly starry eyed and blind to its self referential incoherence and self-falsification. Last, you seem to be bent on continuing to misrepresent this blog and its contributors despite repeated correction. So, I now warn you on duty of care to my fellow soul in a world of the test of life, that there is a well known vice that bears this definition: to speak with disregard to truth, in the hope of profiting by what is said or suggested being taken as true. KF PS: Despite the sort of schoolbook summary often taught without adequate caveats and qualifications, there is no simplistic, one size fits all and only scientific endeavors thus granting the sciences and only the sciences (so also the New Magisterium) privileged access to truth. There are only methods of inquiry bearing various degrees of family resemblance that are shared across many serious disciplines. Such methods are humblingly prone to stumbling, as we are inherently finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often willfully blind and ill-intentioned.kairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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MT, Pardon but I have never heard of a flying witch outside of entertainment literature such as Quidditch [sp?] in Rowling and in children's literature more widely. (Halloween is not a native part of Caribbean culture.) I do know of an Ascension of The Holy and Risen One [with 500 un-breakable witnesses who stood in the face of a demonically mad perverted tyrant such as Nero and could not be moved by the fearsome teeth and claws of dungeon, fire, sword or -- as Suetonius records in Lives of the Twelve Caesars -- worse, much worse . . . ]. And, at least one apparent instant translocation [of an Evangelist]. These, in a work by one of the great classical historians -- noted for habitual detailed accuracy; viz. Luke in Ac chs 1 and 8. You may not wish to credit him, but I find on what I have seen and have from reasonable witnesses and record, every reason to believe his reports. From VJT et al, I have found interesting record of not only the floating friar but padre Pio including during WW 2 . . . and remember I am a convinced Protestant, here respecting the spirituality present on the other side of a major division. As for exorcism and the demonic, there are unpleasant realities beyond the usual course of the world we study in the sciences that our civilisation often does not wish to accept as part of its mental furniture. That does not one whit change what is experienced by many competent people on a sadly almost routine basis. Nor, what comes to us in scripture and historical as well as eyewitness reports down to today. Our greatest poet put the matter thusly:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
Such, we would do well to ponder, given the testimony of the White Rose Martyrs and William Shirer alike regarding Herr Schicklegruber. We can freely add, Messrs Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Idi, and a longer, horrifically longer, further list who echo Nero all too well. Which, does not ground silly superstition and childish demonologies of an active devil under every bed. But, I find surprisingly sobering metaphorical insight in the cartoon image of a red suit and a white suit on either shoulder, whispering. A protest hymn written against the war with Mexico speaks to me in this regard, from 1845:
Once to every man and nation, comes the moment to decide, In the strife of truth with falsehood, for the good or evil side; Some great cause, some great decision, offering each the bloom or blight, And the choice goes by forever, ’twixt that darkness and that light. Then to side with truth is noble, when we share her wretched crust, Ere her cause bring fame and profit, and ’tis prosperous to be just; Then it is the brave man chooses while the coward stands aside, Till the multitude make virtue of the faith they had denied. By the light of burning martyrs, Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track, Toiling up new Calv’ries ever with the cross that turns not back; New occasions teach new duties, time makes ancient good uncouth, They must upward still and onward, who would keep abreast of truth. Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong; Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong; Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown, Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own.
We would do well to heed that voice from the past, delivered with passionate poetry that speaks with flaming insight and deep, insightful genuinely patriotic concern. KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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Me_Think, at this point in time I have to sum up the situation by saying: Almost anything that can be dreamed-up now has an associated philosophy to go with it. Therefore students who were taught that the "philosophy of science" means that science is based on philosophy are through life easily misled into believing that the religious philosophizing found at UD and elsewhere is a part of how science works, its "method".GaryGaulin
February 29, 2016
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KF,
That is, it was a manifestation of evil being exorcised
Do you realize that you are not only endorsing levitation but exorcism too ? If you believe in levitation, do you believe in flying witches too ? It is OK for Dr.VJT to believe in such things because he is a philosopher and he makes a living out of philosophizing, but I don't expect you to promote unscientific thoughts.Me_Think
February 29, 2016
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KF recalls:
HRUN, you were not there, I was . . . along with about fifty others in a well lighted hall.
Can you provide the who, what, when, where, how and why of the story? What hall? Who performed this?GaryGaulin
February 29, 2016
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DfO, it was one thing to believe reports from responsible witnesses over the years. It was another entirely -- very sobering, it was -- to see patently evil power in action. But, heartening to see thus far and no further and expulsion through That Name. KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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Many people report miracles. That may not suffice to settle the matter, but should be enough to instill reasonable doubt.Origenes
February 29, 2016
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DfO, In fact, I spoke with the focal person just last week and was in the same hall just yesterday -- my mother in law and her parents are buried around the back. The roof, is "cathedral" . . . so there is nothing to hide an apparatus of support (which was not there), as though XX et al would even for a moment consider such trickery. And the beyond natural incident was a manifestation of what XX et al were there to liberate the victim from. That's the part that really cracks me up, then I remember, oops, it is not so funny after all to see the sort of reaction. KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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JS, sadly, you seem to be right. KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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HRUN, when you are in a hole and hope to get out it is wise to stop digging in deeper. KFkairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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you have further inadvertently demonstrated my point; the fifty people there are not the ones on trial, your selectively hyperskepticaldismissiveness in absence of knowing anything about the matter is.
It looks like you have a great handle on the point. I am not dismissing the fifty people or putting them on trial. I am saying that people are stupid because they do not simply look for eyewitnesses such as you in order to prove the veracity of reported miracles.hrun0815
February 29, 2016
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I don't think you can improve on this as a starting point:   For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. - Apostle Peter It is a spiritual battle for the minds of human beings, no a scientific one. People deliberately overlook facts, you cannot convince someone of a fact if they continue to avoid it on purpose. I am not saying that apologetics via science or philosophy are not useful in engaging the mind, only that they fall far short of the power of God. Use them, but if you don't get to the power of God you may win a person to the possibility of a designer or even a god, but they will never know God. In fact they will remain his enemy by virtue of rejecting what He did to His only Son on their behalf. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.  For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. - Apostle PaulJohn S
February 29, 2016
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HRUN, you have further inadvertently demonstrated my point; the fifty people there are not the ones on trial, your selectively hyperskepticaldismissiveness in absence of knowing anything about the matter is. On a more relevant matter, let's look at the evolutionary materialist epistemological stance and why it leaves those who take it up without a leg to stand on, courtesy Nancy Pearcey:
A major way to test a philosophy or worldview is to ask: Is it logically consistent? Internal contradictions are fatal to any worldview because contradictory statements are necessarily false. “This circle is square” is contradictory, so it has to be false. An especially damaging form of contradiction is self-referential absurdity — which means a theory sets up a definition of truth that it itself fails to meet. Therefore it refutes itself . . . . An example of self-referential absurdity is a theory called evolutionary epistemology, a naturalistic approach that applies evolution to the process of knowing. The theory proposes that the human mind is a product of natural selection. The implication is that the ideas in our minds were selected for their survival value, not for their truth-value. But what if we apply that theory to itself? Then it, too, was selected for survival, not truth — which discredits its own claim to truth. Evolutionary epistemology commits suicide. Astonishingly, many prominent thinkers have embraced the theory without detecting the logical contradiction. Philosopher John Gray writes, “If Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true,… the human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth.” What is the contradiction in that statement? Gray has essentially said, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it “serves evolutionary success, not truth.” In other words, if Darwin’s theory is true, then it is not true. Self-referential absurdity is akin to the well-known liar’s paradox: “This statement is a lie.” If the statement is true, then (as it says) it is not true, but a lie. Another example comes from Francis Crick. In The Astonishing Hypothesis, he writes, “Our highly developed brains, after all, were not evolved under the pressure of discovering scientific truths but only to enable us to be clever enough to survive.” But that means Crick’s own theory is not a “scientific truth.” Applied to itself, the theory commits suicide. Of course, the sheer pressure to survive is likely to produce some correct ideas. A zebra that thinks lions are friendly will not live long. But false ideas may be useful for survival. Evolutionists admit as much: Eric Baum says, “Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Steven Pinker writes, “Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.” The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion — and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value.
[--> that is, responsible, rational freedom is undermined. Cf here William Provine in his 1998 U Tenn Darwin Day keynote:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself. A few thinkers, to their credit, recognize the problem. Literary critic Leon Wieseltier writes, “If reason is a product of natural selection, then how much confidence can we have in a rational argument for natural selection? … Evolutionary biology cannot invoke the power of reason even as it destroys it.” On a similar note, philosopher Thomas Nagel asks, “Is the [evolutionary] hypothesis really compatible with the continued confidence in reason as a source of knowledge?” His answer is no: “I have to be able to believe … that I follow the rules of logic because they are correct — not merely because I am biologically programmed to do so.” Hence, “insofar as the evolutionary hypothesis itself depends on reason, it would be self-undermining.” [ENV excerpt, Finding Truth (David C. Cook, 2015) by Nancy Pearcey.]
KF PS: It seems you have soon forgotten your remark in 11 above: >>the charge of hyper skepticism coming from the anti-ID crowd on UD is so absurd that it borders on comical. If I remember correctly, it is UD where people commonly suggest that all scientists and universities are involved in a massive delusional deception to prop up evolution. >> You have here set up and tried to knock over an ad hom laced strawman, then dismissed corrective remarks as "word salad." The selectively hyperskeptical, dismissive pattern is becoming quite clear.kairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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HRUN, you were not there, I was . . . along with about fifty others in a well lighted hall. No there was no harness and there were no wires etc. Nor was this a desired or admired phenomenon, it was part of a spiritual problem that required significant prayer and counselling to eliminate. The godly miracle was the deliverance from this and other linked issues; that is why I commented as I did above. But then I simply note for record so that we can understand how the hyperskepticism tactic plays out, now reaching to turnabout rhetoric. KF
Yup, that's why I was suggesting we should have just thought about questioning reliable eyewitnesses like you.
PS: All scientists smacks of no true scotsman [... more word salad]
No idea what you are on about. But I'm sure it has to do with my limited intellect or hyperskepticism.hrun0815
February 29, 2016
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HRUN, you were not there, I was . . . along with about fifty others in a well lighted hall. No there was no harness and there were no wires etc. Nor was this a desired or admired phenomenon, it was part of a spiritual problem that required significant prayer and counselling to eliminate. The godly miracle was the deliverance from this and other linked issues; that is why I commented as I did above. But then I simply note for record so that we can understand how the hyperskepticism tactic plays out, now reaching to turnabout rhetoric. KF PS: All scientists smacks of no true scotsman, esp where many design thinkers and advocates including contributors at this site accept limited or universal common descent. Evolution rapidly becomes a slippery term that carries a range of meanings that too easily glide into one another. The key issue on design thought is that functionally specific complex organisation and associated info has one known observed source, design. Life is full of it and so is the cosmological order. Per empirical and analytical bases, we are entitled to infer design. And, FSCO/I in OOL and origin of body plans have not been empirically warranted as coming about by blind watchmaker chance and necessity. Such is imposed per methodological naturalism, as Lewontin admitted.kairosfocus
February 29, 2016
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