Hydroxychloroquine wars, 6: Dr Zelenko’s interview with Rudy Giuliani

_{kairosfocus

March 31, 2020

Academic Freedom, Defending our Civilization, Medicine, News Highlights, rhetoric, Sci-Tech watch}

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F/N: As indicated https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/the-worlds-physicians-weigh-in-they-want-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin/ KFkairosfocus_{April 4, 2020
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The morrow, DV. Enough for one day.kairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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KF what did "Folks, later on what physicians are saying and doing globally" mean?Jim Thibodeau_{April 3, 2020
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KF, Your post #85 is alarming. We're having a big day in the US, sadly.daveS_{April 3, 2020
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BTW, earlier, I put up tracking plots that are pointing to peaking.kairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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Meanwhile, i have headlined the latest Zelenko videokairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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Folks, later on what physicians are saying and doing globally. Some need to brace for a shock. KFkairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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chloroquine needs to be used in conjunction with zinc.
Latest from Dr. Zelenko on his success rate https://techstartups.com/2020/04/03/updates-from-dr-vladimir-zelenko-now-treated-700-coronavirus-patients-with-99-9-success-rate-using-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-and-z-pak-1-outpatient-died-after-not-following-protocol-exclusi/ I posted this to some good friends and they were full of reasons why this cannot be so because the best minds are not on board. As always it is human behavior that is most fascinating as is seen in discussions of ID. The best minds are not on board there either.jerry_{April 3, 2020
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As Jerry's links to videos have shown, chloroquine needs to be used in conjunction with zinc.ET_{April 3, 2020
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Worth noting that the drug used in the Canadian study has already gone through Phase I and Phase II trials (albeit in a different context), so it will be easier to move it to a Phase III trial (the same is true for hydroxychloroquine, of course). This is important, because it affects the speed with which these treatments can be shown to work. New drugs will need a lot more testing to be confident they aren't going to kill people.Bob O'H_{April 3, 2020
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EG, I see there:
“Our new study provides very much needed direct evidence that a drug — called APN01 (human recombinant soluble angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 – hrsACE2) — soon to be tested in clinical trials by the European biotech company Apeiron Biologics, is useful as an antiviral therapy for COVID-19,” . . . . “The virus causing COVID-19 is a close sibling to the first SARS virus,” adds Penninger. “Our previous work has helped to rapidly identify ACE2 as the entry gate for SARS-CoV-2, which explains a lot about the disease. Now we know that a soluble form of ACE2 that catches the virus away, could be indeed a very rational therapy that specifically targets the gate the virus must take to infect us. There is hope for this horrible pandemic.”
They are using a candidate drug targetting the spike protein. They seem to be setting up a mimic to lock up enough of the virus that its ability to cascade in tissue is frustrated. They are also using cultured human tissue analogues and showed that SARS-2 is capable of attacking other tissues, suggestive in the context of multiple organ failures being clinically observed. Though, respiratory deterioration to sufficient degree also can lead/contribute to organ failures. I don't know if this is part of the 69 test drugs count but it is at least worth trying clinically. My concern is, we definitely need broadly acting antivirals. Ditto, for fresh antibiotics. KFkairosfocus_{April 3, 2020
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Another promising possibility. https://news.ubc.ca/2020/04/02/ubc-led-study-finds-trial-drug-can-significantly-block-early-stages-of-covid-19-in-engineered-human-tissues/?fbclid=IwAR2MfIdve7RRXIgf6OBqoklNhHgpsT4oWPUwHQpStrP0tInvEN4QptTQjDcEd George_{April 2, 2020
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I have been clear that I support its use for COVID-19 patients in hospitals
You should look at the video. Dr. Zelenko is keeping people out of the hospital by prescribing a cocktail of three drugs/pills to at risk patients. Keeping people out of the hospital is the goal so the hospitals do not get overwhelmed. There is essentially a cure for this virus and it should be administered early when diagnosed and there are initial symptoms of shortness of breath. Essentially he found out that only a hand full of patients should get to the hospital when in fact they are being inundated when they should not be if known treatments were applied early. Again I recommend the latest video by MedCram (medical site for medical students) where some history of infectious disease is discussed but the most important part of this video is how to manage people who have the virus so they never get to the hospital. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LHgyfPPQ8&t=932sjerry_{April 2, 2020
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Yes, Ed, you said not to use it until they ran clinical trials and got the results back.ET_{April 2, 2020
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KF
EG, do you really want to go down the long list of times that you and others have cast severe doubts on the utility of HCQ?
No, just the number of times I have. I have been clear that I support its use for COVID-19 patients in hospitals, as I would for colchicine. I have even provided links to other promising treatments. If you can’t find comments where I have opposed this treatment it is time that you walked back your original comment.Ed George_{April 2, 2020
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DS, Wikipedia is interesting, somewhat saddening:
Prudence (Latin: prudentia, contracted from providentia meaning "seeing ahead, sagacity") is the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason.[1] It is classically considered to be a virtue, and in particular one of the four Cardinal virtues (which are, with the three theological virtues, part of the seven virtues). Prudentia is an allegorical female personification of the virtue, whose attributes are a mirror and snake, who is frequently depicted as a pair with Justitia, the Roman goddess of Justice. The word derives from the 14th-century Old French word prudence, which, in turn, derives from the Latin prudentia meaning "foresight, sagacity". It is often associated with wisdom, insight, and knowledge. In this case, the virtue is the ability to judge between virtuous and vicious actions, not only in a general sense, but with regard to appropriate actions at a given time and place. Although prudence itself does not perform any actions, and is concerned solely with knowledge, all virtues had to be regulated by it. Distinguishing when acts are courageous, as opposed to reckless or cowardly, is an act of prudence, and for this reason it is classified as a cardinal (pivotal) virtue. In modern English, the word has become increasingly synonymous with cautiousness. In this sense, prudence names a reluctance to take risks, which remains a virtue with respect to unnecessary risks, but, when unreasonably extended into over-cautiousness, can become the vice of cowardice. In the Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle gives a lengthy account of the virtue phronesis (Ancient Greek: ????????), traditionally translated as "prudence", although this has become increasingly problematic as the word has fallen out of common usage. More recently ???????? has been translated by such terms as "practical wisdom", "practical judgment" or "rational choice".
Ari has a point: prudence is right reason applied to practice. That ties to what I have been noting about inescapable first duties of reason. Our civilisation is in deeper trouble than it may first appear. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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Indeed.daveS_{April 2, 2020
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DS, imprudence is suicidal. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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KF, I'm using "hope for the best" idiomatically here. As John McCain did in criticizing military action in Kosovo 20 years ago:
Republican Sen John McCain, of Arizona, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, said he saw no credible administration strategy. "Basically they're saying, we're going to bomb and hope for the best ... there's no plan-B here," he said.
daveS_{April 2, 2020
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ET, back in uni days on my campus we all had the standing joke about how a certain professor would begin pharmacology lecture 1: pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. This invariably shocked the bright-eyed, bushy-tailed 1st year med students and that evening we would see it in the Hall of Residence dining room. If anyone is so imprudent as to imagine that if X of a drug or supplement is good then more and more is better, s/he is begging for serious trouble. Even drunkenness is an early toxic effect and many spices can do bad things in large doses. You can kill yourself with enough carrot juice. Too much sugar at one sitting can be fatal -- as a Chem prof told me once about a very bad childhood experience in Barbados with leftover sugar from a shipment workers gave to school kids standing around. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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DS, yes, that's why an anti-inflammatory is common to all three diseases. However, my suggestion is that overwhelmingly arthritis is a slow progressive disease while Covid-19 is fairly rapid. That suggests a triage decision -- always, a difficult choice -- on scarce medical resources in a context where supply is being rapidly ramped up. My note on dismissive, denigratory language is about the toxic atmosphere that was needlessly created once Mr Trump pointed to HCQ and other drugs as signs of hope. Hope, BTW is not imprudent, especially informed hope (as opposed to wishful thinking); it is actually a virtue. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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Zinc must be taken in moderation! You don't want people downing a bottle of the supplement. (as an aside- taking zinc will also help you cure your acne because it kills the bacteria causing it by starving them)ET_{April 2, 2020
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Kf, Zelenko said most shortness of breath was ameliorated in hours. Again a test for the disease that is easily available is essential so there will be no need to prescribe for non-infected. A test for oxygen delivery issues that is easily available and an indication of who should be tested. This exists. A test for antibodies to show who can go back to work. This test is in the pipeline. These all have to be worked out but there is an apparent cure with near 100% success and it should be limited to those in the high risk group due to potential side effects. Zelenko advocates this because the drugs are not completely risk free so do not give it to those who are young unless there are overriding issues. Maybe we are playing doctor so it is best left to them to figure out.jerry_{April 2, 2020
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KF, Eh? Rheumatoid arthritis is not just about pain, it's an autoimmune disease like lupus that can produce fatal complications. Other than this, I don't know what we're disagreeing about. I didn't say anything about touting, etc. Tough choices are going to have to be made. Singapore and South Korea have learned the lessons from SARS, but predictably, not many other countries have. Imprudence is pretty much the way we roll in the US. Nevermind planning for the future, investing in critical infrastructure, etc., we tend to wing it and hope for the best.daveS_{April 2, 2020
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Jerry, shortness of breath may mark initial long term lung damage. Then, there is the world of asthmatics and those with various similar lung and/or immune system disorders. The at risk and those showing shortness? Maybe there is a doctor in the house. KF PS I wonder who can tell us why we should not take serious note of Raoult's two recent results, noting his status as a researcher.kairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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DS, we have been imprudent for 15 years and are paying the price with SARS . . . 2. I gather that a group of seven pharma co's has set about producing 250 million pills by mid month, with obvious onward implications. I would suggest that there is no proper comparison between arthritis pain [bad though that is] and loss of life in the face of an epidemic manifesting quasi-exponential growth globally. Lupus, is a different case and if that had been the main comparison, a call for balance would have been on target. Language about unproven remedies and touting was and is out of order. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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who should be allowed the drug
Zelenko addresses that in his video with Giuliani. He suggests shortness of breath. There are simple point of care tests for strain on the oxygen system. If you watch the latest MedCram video, it covers a lot of very interesting things related to infectious disease such as hyperthermia treatment. But most importantly how to manage the disease so the hospitals are not overwhelmed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LHgyfPPQ8&t=894s If it starts into the video go back to beginning.jerry_{April 2, 2020
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Jerry, we crossed in posting. I agree we have been acting imprudently for perhaps 15 years since SARS 1. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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KF,
Prudence, i/l/o the value of human life, would manifestly support initial, provisional use of the drug for treatment to prevent fatal complications for the at-risk, and for prophylaxis for health care workers on the frontlines, who obviously have higher exposure.
I don't know enough about the risks to say who should be allowed the drug, but ideally, at least people who are seriously ill should be given the choice. There are other concerns, for example people who are taking these drugs for rheumatoid arthritis already are having difficulty finding them. And yes, prudence is a good word.daveS_{April 2, 2020
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ET, good for you. KFkairosfocus_{April 2, 2020
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