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Flies Show Free Will

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A team of neurobiologists led by Bjorn Brembs of Free University Berlin have found experimental evidence in fruit fly behavior indicating that these much-abused bugs may have an element of free will. A report on the study in LiveScience notes that:

For centuries, the question of whether or not humans possess free will — and thus control their own actions — has been a source of hot debate.
“Free will is essentially an oxymoron — we would not consider it ‘will’ if it were completely random and we would not consider it ‘free’ if it were entirely determined,” Brembs said. In other words, nobody would ascribe responsibility to one’s actions if they were entirely the result of random coincidence. On the other hand, if one’s actions were completely determined by outside factors such that no alternative existed, no one would hold that person responsible for them.


Of course standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will. Though many Darwinists shy away from the implications of their beliefs as they apply to ascribing responsibility for human behavior, their position demands that all behavior is determined by the genetic heritage of selfish genes. If free will in fact exists, it must exist outside the deterministic universe of materialism. But if free will exists in flies, can it be denied in humans?
Of course the scientists behind this study are good Darwinists all, and therefore must cavil and caveat their way out of the real implications of their findings:

Brembs said that “even a fly brain possesses a function which makes it easier to imagine a brain that creates the impression of free will.”

Just as life give only “the appearance of design” to people like Dawkins, observed behavior must be noted to give only “the impression of free will.” To stay in the mainstream, scientists must not acknowledge the possibility of actual free will, although Brembs comes perilously close with his statement:

“If even flies show the capacity for spontaneity, can we really assume it is missing in humans?” he asked.

As with biological complexity, the more we discover about behavior, the less deterministic it looks. Evidence for free will is evidence against Darwinism, no matter how it is spun.

Comments
brembs: "excuse me, “evidence for free will” is just like saying “evidence for love” or ..." This is an error of reason. Free will is a far more substantial & verifiable thing than "love". Did you freely post what you wrote or not? If you did then it is a question of abductive reasoning that reliably tells us that consciousness and conscience both imply that our powers of volition are indeed free - i.e self-determined. If you did not, then certainly I'm not writing these lines freely either, no one else is either and all conversation and debate is a mere hoax of nature upon man. If free will is a lie or illusion, then all the great deeds, all the despicable deeds, in all of history carried no intrinsic merit or culpability whatsoever and thus are neither great nor despicable. All deeds become deterministic, all actions robotic and reflexive. You do not condemn a man for being forced to pull a trigger against his will. Neither do you thank or congratulate someone for what the biochemical movements of matter and energy in their brain determined they would do in response to stimuli. The whole of history goes down the tubes as meaningless events of a determined non-responsible nature if there is no free will. That is the idiocy of the deniers of free will. Are they deniers by choice or not? If they are not then we have no more reason to listen to them than to a rock falling down a hill. Indeed, we being without free will ourselves, are unable to "change our minds"! If they are then they are also the greatest of fools.Borne
May 17, 2007
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I wonder if Dr Brembs and his colleagues actually intended to design and perform this study, or if their actions were merely a "subjective experience of free will in a macrocosm we believe to be largely deterministic." Just curious.SteveB
May 17, 2007
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Dr. Brembs: Thanks for weighing in; it's always nice to hear from a primary source. I have a few related questions for you: Do you think there could ever be an experimental way to differentiate true free will, independent of genetic heritage or behavioral programing, from a deterministic "evolutionary conserved mechanism generating spontaneous behavior," as you put it, in the brain? You were quoted as saying in the article; "we would not consider it ‘will’ if it were completely random and we would not consider it ‘free’ if it were entirely determined" Yet if free will is an illusion generated by some brain function producing what appears to be spontaneous behavior, isn't that still deterministic and therefore not really free? i.e. it's this proposed evolved brain mechanism, whatever it is, that determines the behavior, rather than actual choices made by an independent intelligence. (By independent I mean that its behavior is not determined by its evolutionary heritage.) And if it's not "will" if it's random, as you said, then the "spontaneous" part of what your proposed brain mechansim does would appear to rule out true "will" as well. Random number generators already exist to vary robot's behavior; how would this brain mechanism be different? To return to the main question, if your proposed brain mechanism is not "entirely determined," and not "completely random," how can you ever tell if it even exists? How could you determine if a behavior is in fact a product of the mechanism and not true free will of an intelligence acting outside materialist constraints? If you can tell, how? This is a serious question. If you can't tell, how will it help program the robots you propose? (sidenote: I wonder if you read Asimov?) Finally, specific to your hypothesis, what kind of brain mechanism could there be that wasn't "entirely determined" (your phrase) by its genetic makeup and subsequent experience?dacook
May 17, 2007
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Consciousness, desire, intention, free will, agency … exactly what materialism was designed to deny—or when that gets difficult to obfuscate and issue promissory notes and assert: “That’s all fairly straightforward and doesn’t require any spin at all.” Interestingly the Scripture calls it soul and makes all the creatures souls—though man alone has language all creatures are souls. My Darwinist mentor called it “Aristotle’s anima” and conceded that it was a great mystery but that Darwinism couldn’t do without it. A mechanism has no will to live (and therefore enters no struggle for survival), for even if we programmed the automatic pilot on an advanced aircraft with a “will to live” chip this could mean no more than a set of stimulus-response algorithms. It would lack the intention even of a housefly. You can make a machine that responds to stimuli in order to survive, but the “in order to” is part of the maker’s intention—not that of the machine. And neither is intention some kind of randomness. Randomness at the quantum level wouldn’t explain intention, but it might suggest where necessity is suspended so that conscious intention might have its say.Rude
May 17, 2007
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brembs, "But if you need scientific evidence for free will, you might as well go to a chemist and ask for evidence for love. Just as the chemist might tell you something about what biological processes are participating in what you feel as love, our study might tell us something about what is going on in brains that feel they have free will." I agree that the question of free will is, as you put it, not a scientific question per se. It's philosophy, and whatever the answers to those philosophical questions may ultimately be (if there are any real answers), the scientific data can inform a viewpoint and do little beyond that. The Libet experiments (widely cited as scientific evidence against free will - would you agree that was the result of a political agenda as well?) are similar; they inform, they provide data for those philosophizing to consider, but that's as far as it goes. However: "In summary: There’s nothing supernatural or divine or extraterrestrial about flies." You just explained that the philosophical question of free will is not a scientific one; science can't address issues so firmly planted in that realm. Then you end by saying that there's nothing supernatural, divine, or extraterrestrial about fruit flies. Not that I think that's been advocated here, but - on what grounds do you say that? It can't be any scientific grounds; those questions (perhaps not ET) are in a philosophical realm you yourself said science just can't be the deciding factor on. The data is the data, and it speaks for itself. Maybe the experiment provided no scientific insight/evidence regarding questions of the divine, supernatural, or extraterrestrial. I'd agree with that much. But if science can't affirm those things in principle, it can't deny them by the same principle. The data just sits there mute and waits for the philosophers and theologians to process them.nullasalus
May 17, 2007
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DaCook The article says that the flying behaviour can be described as a Levy Distribution. And emails, letters, and money flow are examples of Levy Distribution. But the flow of emails is not free will. So, this is NOT evidence of free will.MatthewTan
May 17, 2007
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Faith and Shadow: Yes--he said that. At least according to Charles Colson's book How Now Shall We Live?I've loaned the book out so I don't have the page down pat in my mind, but look under the chapter titled "is science our salvation"? Hawking was holding/attending a conference of sorts on the future of human evolution and was asked a question about how "we" as a species can turn things around for a better world. Hawkings answer left everyone limp, in that his answer was basically that nothing can be changed, and either things will happen or not and he was not sanguine about our future prospects for continued survival, BUT that since we don't KNOW the exact outcome of our human interest and investigation in things, we "might as well" believe in the illusion of free will. Not that in the long run it made any difference. That's the gist of it. Sorry for the ill report.S Wakefield Tolbert
May 17, 2007
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Brembs-- What on earth is the "political" agenda of making a claim about "free will" as possibly seen or hyped from an obervation about...fruit flies? Perhaps the word you meant was "philosophical"? And your statement to the effect that "free will" is not a scientific question? Perhaps you might relay that little ditty to the editors and writers of publications like Scientific American? Science indeed lays claim, as I demonstrated above, to uncover the reasons behind ANY behavior--love included. Thus the commentary I've read from "research" purporting to show that "love" is chemically based, morals are pragmatic bio-responses, and evolved, and human thinking is a grand parlor trick evolved to help us make more little humans more efficiently. There is not much left after all that. Don't try and kid a kidder. I've seen the notations. _________________________ Mr. Krebs, not sure if this is really all that "amateurish" of a research moment. Sheer observation does fine for looking at aspects of free will (or perhaps we like the term "non-deterministic behavior" if the conditions are set up properly and one knows what to look for. The popularization of these kinds of findings is another issue entirely, whether by accident or by design of the researchers trying to get attention. Fruit flies are ideal research subjects for many reasons. They are easy to care for, don't threaten each other, have a breeding cycle of about 2 weeks or so depending on ambient temperature, and their chromosomes are gigantic, and read like a "Mendel's Gene Manipulation and Inheritance for Dummies" manual. I use the wingless variety to feed exotic frogs myself, to prevent easy escape. One switch---just one---in the chromosomes can do this at a lab where I buy them, and then you isolate the wingless generation from their wild pals to avoid interbreeding to continue this deleterious effect. My modest proposal is this: Find, or attempt to find, the loci or locus of this apparent "free will" center that allows the fly to have a randomized behavior. Among the large genes this creature has, this should not be too difficult. Thought experiment to follow the findings: 1) If it is a single chromosome or block in the chromosomes, the notion of free will is mechanical in nature and evolved. 2) If it cannot be found in a single unit or set of units but can only be located in a very general region of a chromosome strand? Thus it must be assumed to be an emergent property of the genes that cannot be understood except when in concert among the genes. 3) If it cannot be found at all? It is an aspect that is beyond our ability to measure and must be assumed to be part of the very nature of living organisms per se. Whatever the results, they will please only a few people, since it can always be claimed that the mere existence of such attributes means one of two things: a) It means little for humans if found in flies, as flies and humans are too disparate beings. b) It means little for humans OR flies if found at all, as purely mechanistic forces now explain such behaviors in the simplest creatures, and evolution fills in the needs for the "higher organisms" with different needsS Wakefield Tolbert
May 17, 2007
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[off topic] Jack, Feel free to keep posting here. But was that you who destroyed my thread at KCFS? The one which began with an excerpt from Richard Lewontin talking about Fitness. You just didn't want me there after you called me despicable and dishonest and after you allowed members to continually refer to me in the most vulgar terms. My last two postings were references to PNAS and Santa Fe papers which is orders of magnitude higher in their discussion of science than the usual dreck that you allow to fill your discussion board. Let the readers of UD be made aware of the post for which I was reprimanded at KCFS: Lewontin argues Darwin's notion of fitness is obsoletescordova
May 17, 2007
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i remember in philosophy class our teacher asked a question regarding free will: "If there is an all knowing being that predicts your every thought and action, then do you truly have free will? Or are you just doing exactly what was already known that you'd do?" One student turned really red with frustration and said "No I have free will and I can decide to do whatever I want." The teacher said "yes, but no matter what you do, God will have already known you were going to do that." The student stood up and said "well what if I choose to leave this class room and just walk out on my own free will?". He stomped out of the classroom thinking that by doing something he normally wouldn't do, he was proving that he had free will. Upon his exit, the teacher said to the rest of us "God knew he was going to do that." That was the funniest moment in my education.Fross
May 17, 2007
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I am really glad to read brembs remarks. They help me understand the difference between the science and some of the popularization that came out in the press release. The fact that some behavior is generated from internal processes rather than from a simplistic stimulus-response to the environment is well know. Brembs study adds to our knowledge of the nature and evolutionary history of that internally generated behavior.Jack Krebs
May 17, 2007
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Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.DaveScot
May 17, 2007
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Ah... This is the central question asked by Buddhism - who is this "I" that we are? By the way, I don't think anyone is saying consciousness is an illusion.Jack Krebs
May 17, 2007
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If free will and consciousness are illusions, who, then, is it that is being illuded? IOW, if I have the illusion that I am conscious and have free will, who is the "I" that is being fooled by this charade?jb
May 17, 2007
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Actually, we paid great attention in our press release to make sure we only frame the free will issue as a question. Of course, our original study makes no mention of free will, it is not a scientific concept. However, spontaneity even in flies makes us ponder what, if anything, this might entail for our subjective experience of free will in a macrocosm we believe to be largely deterministic. Therefore we addressed the issue with an ironic question in our press release: "Do fruit flies have free will?" Of course, people with a political rather than a scientific agenda will drop the question mark, which was not entirely unexpected. Scientifically, the most important aspect is that we found evidence for an evolutionarily conserved brain function which always spontaneously varies ongoing behavior. Why would so many kinds of brains have this function? There are a number of very good evolutionary reasons cited in our original article. dacook: "As with biological complexity, the more we discover about behavior, the less deterministic it looks. Evidence for free will is evidence against Darwinism, no matter how it is spun." Erm, excuse me, "evidence for free will" is just like saying "evidence for love" or "evidence for excitement". The discovery of an evolutionary conserved mechanism generating spontaneous behavior may be evidence for the importance of generating variable behavior in survival and procreation. It may also be a prerequisite for the mechanism by which we attribute agency to our actions. Which in turn might be one of the processes in our brain leading to our impression of free will. But if you need scientific evidence for free will, you might as well go to a chemist and ask for evidence for love. Just as the chemist might tell you something about what biological processes are participating in what you feel as love, our study might tell us something about what is going on in brains that feel they have free will. In summary: There's nothing supernatural or divine or extraterrestrial about flies. In fact, once it has been figured out how their brain generates spontaneous behavior, one will be able to construct agents/robots that work the same way. And when it is known which genes are involved in which animals, we will be able to find out just in how many steps and from what ancestry this mechanism evolved, as with so many other traits these days. That's all fairly straightforward and doesn't require any spin at all.brembs
May 17, 2007
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"standard Darwinian orthodoxy denies the reality of free will" Francisco Ayala concluded his latest "Design without a desiger" by saying "chance and necessity ... has spurted ... humans who think, love, endowed with free will and creative power" PNAS vol 104 8573 May 15 2007idnet.com.au
May 17, 2007
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How simple does the life form have to be before we stop describing it as having free will? Suppose the experiment was repeated with amoeba or plants?markf
May 16, 2007
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P.S. Upon re-reading the article, I'd say "amateurish and un-thought-out" are not very good adjectives to have used. However, I don think that quite a few points made in the article are not very good, and I think the whole "free will" aspect of the article is sort of artificially imposed on top of the science.Jack Krebs
May 16, 2007
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I finally read the whole article, and think it is full of some pretty amateurish and un-thought-out philosophy that really obscures the science being done. My 2 cents.Jack Krebs
May 16, 2007
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"Free will is essentially an oxymoron — we would not consider it ‘will’ if it were completely random and we would not consider it ‘free’ if it were entirely determined,” Brembs said. In other words, nobody would ascribe responsibility to one’s actions if they were entirely the result of random coincidence. On the other hand, if one’s actions were completely determined by outside factors such that no alternative existed, no one would hold that person responsible for them.
Darwinians really should get out of the Humean philosophy business and back to biology. Does Brembs credit David Hume for this? It is, after all, Hume who came up with this stuff.Vladimir Krondan
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs, Actually, it's not materialism, per se, that I am primarily against (although I am against it), but against an anti-ID position, which is not the same thing, obviously. The proximate cause of certain biotic features may indeed have a intelligent and yet materialistic explanation.mike1962
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs, "there are lots of non-materialists who accept the nature of science as the pursuit of materialistic explanations." And I think they are wrong, and am doing my part to fight against such a limiting philosophy.mike1962
May 16, 2007
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. . . there are lots of non-materialists who accept the nature of science as the pursuit of materialistic explanations. Fine and dandy but the problems start when materialist explanations are offered that aren't very good -- and in fact inferior to non-material explanations -- then defended dogmatically solely because they are the best materialist explanation and by means that have nothing to do with science, philosophy or any type of reasoned debate.tribune7
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs says:
Actually I don’t consider Dawkins good company in this regard, and I don’t think dacook believes that he is good company either.
Sometimes I can be good company...my wife thinks so...and I do have a few friends who will spend time with me...and six kids...:)
Furthermore, I don’t consider Dawkins the “premier public explainer” of science...
I don't either. But that's what the title of his position implies, and what he seems to believe of himself. That was a little tongue-in-cheek.
There are good reasons to restrict science to materialistic explanations, I think, and, again, many non materialists, including many Christians and other theists, agree with me on that.
Yet true "free will" (not the illusion Dawkins et.al. believe it to be) is usually not considered amenable to materialistic explanations. But these scientists have set up a scientific experiment to demonstrate it in flies. There is a non-materilaist explanation for their results, i.e. flies have free will.
So I’ll continue to argue that it is a mistake to conflate materialism as a philosophy with a support for science as seeking materials explanations: these are different.
I think I see your point, but that's not really "the" point. With these fruit flies, for e.g., we have a case of scientific experiment which may show evidence of a non-materialist explanation for behavior. A result outside your inner circle, but inside your outer circle. If we circumscribe the allowed results before we apply the process, we may preclude some wonderful discoveries. Perhaps our difficulty is in definitions: I personally prefer a definition of "science" as a process of observation, hypothesizing, experimentation, and theorizing. I do not believe that acceptable results of this process should be restricted to any sort of pre-drawn circle.dacook
May 16, 2007
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"The notion Stephen Hawking put forth saying that while free will is certainly a myth, it may as well NOT be since on our side of the coin we THINK we have free will and a conscience; and nature allows us to flow with this tomfoolery as a survival mechanism against discouragement, etc." Did he really say this? Surely not, because it is stupid and certainly not science, but philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Surely one of the most intelligent minds ever didn't conceive this crock of tomfoolery. Surely not.faithandshadow
May 16, 2007
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All of you folks are talking about philosophy. Of course there are lots of materialists, some of whom are also prominent biologists. I not saying one shouldn't argue against materialism if one is so inclined: what I'm saying is - the point that is being skipped over - is that there are lots of non-materialists who accept the nature of science as the pursuit of materialistic explanations. So argue against Dawkins and Provine and all them - make the case for non-materialism, including theism, but please don't think that those guys have the right or the authority to speak philosophically for all of science or all scientists or all suporters of science, because they don't.Jack Krebs
May 16, 2007
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JKrebs: "“Standard Darwinian orthodoxy”, if that is meant to refer to mainstream evolutionary biology, does not deny nor affirm the reality of free will, as free will is a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of science." Incredibly wrong. Dawkins, Provine, virtually every materialist/naturalist and even LiveScience say the contrary. And if Darwinism is true then they are right - genes control everything and free will is an illusion - as so many Darwinists "freely" proclaim! Do a short Google search for "free will an illusion" and check the vast number of books and articles written by Darwinists.
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.
~ William Provine
I mean when we punish people for doing the most horrible murders, maybe the attitude we should take is “Oh they were just determined by their molecules.” It’s stupid to punish them. What we should do is say “This unit has a faulty motherboard which needs to be replaced.” ----------- Retribution as a moral principle is incompatible with a scientific view of human behaviour.
Dawkins
The three lies are: God, immortality, and free will.
Robert Gulack. Check: http://www.naturalism.org/currents.htm#ethical Yours Jack, is another example of Darwinist confusion in the ranks. Even Darwinists don't know what Darwinism really is. mike1962: Good point and good premise for accepting to debate it or not. But, if one says that "we cannot determine design in biotic nature" then they'd have to demonstrate why. IOW, Prove it. A whole other debate ensues. Of course it is impossible to prove that design cannot be detected in nature anymore than it can't be detected anywhere else! If we can discern design at all, we can determine it anywhere.Borne
May 16, 2007
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Hi Jack, Since your concern seems to center on confusing science with philosophy, I wanted to direct your attention to the original article. BTW, I’m glad you post from time to time. Seems that more and more, for whatever reason, dissenters from ID don’t write much here. Thank you. Anyway, if “free will is a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of science,” then your objection really should be directed at the authors of the study—or maybe MSNBC—which reported that “Scientists say even the humble fruit fly, with its tiny brain, may have a spark of free will,” and that this “could shed light on the nature and evolution of free will in humans.” The claim here is that scientists do indeed have something to say about free will, and further that they know something about how this philosophical concept has evolved. I’m all for science and philosophy not being confused with each other but c’mon, the conflating was done by the authors of the study and the media who reported on it (where it is often done… sigh.) long before dacook responded. -sbSteveB
May 16, 2007
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JK said: Science is not the only way of investigating the world, and science does not and cannot investigate all aspects of the world. Do you mind, Mr. Krebs, if I can write that down in a journal somewhere for future reference? I think all the other quotations I have from those claiming to speak for science say something that would disagree. Somewhere in the neighborhood of several hundred quotes to the opposite of yours. Certainly the major movers and shakers who popularize science for the masses would disagree that science cannot and should not investigate all aspects of human interest and life. We have the scientic take on love. (all chemicals and hormones, all the rest is poetic much and gush) We have the materialist take on human origins. (evolved from creatures who were once dumber than chimps) We have the scientific take on theology. (all mechanistic reactions based on cultural interaction designed to make us feel better about ourselves and handle life's hardships) We have the scientific analysis of economics and politics. (conservative politics and certian ideas are now largely regarded as either anti-social, or anti-science, or non-earth friendly, or anti-human and anti-efficient or signs of neurosis in the human condition) We have the scientific take on morals. (purely pragmatic, with no real transcendent truths to behold--evolved as behavior modifications merely to make the going good for getting along in the community) we have the scientific take on art, cuisine, and beauty and the explanation for cultural difference differences on these. (they evolved to make us feel better, and while cultural differences are found, it is commonly known now that art and perceptions of art are found in the limbic system, with a cascade of hormones to tell us what female beauty is for utilitarian goals of you-know-what and other elements of brain evolution that seek "settlement" of surroundings--thus art). I think that about wraps it up, Jack. What else is left besides choice of friends and wine?S Wakefield Tolbert
May 16, 2007
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Jack Krebs, There are indeed many "materialists" who think the very idea of "free will" is pure hooey. Some have mentioned the escape hatch of "sociobiology" (e.g., culture, or socialization) as a way of saying this is so without, well, saying it. But in my mind the whole difference in nature vs. nurture debate is a distinction without a difference. Nurture is part of nature, not an adversary or competing interest. Daniel Dennett and William Provine come to mind, but are merely two of the more prominent popularizers of "materialism rejects free will" movement, not its originators nor its only major adherents. I have certainly found in my conversations with self-identified materialists like Ed Babinski that "free will" and "induction" are considered mythology akin to the Soul, the Conscience, and other so called "pre-science" notions. They respond as did B.F. Skinner--the psychologist who hated the very term "psyche" because it implied that the physical mind has the ability to think outside of evolutionary constraints. Free Will is basically a slight of hand that outperforms David Copperfield's greatest TV specials. As to the rest: The issue of an omniscient God who knows all ahead of time is no more confusing---or no less---than the notion Stephen Hawking put forth saying that while free will is certainly a myth, it may as well NOT be since on our side of the coin we THINK we have free will and a conscience; and nature allows us to flow with this tomfoolery as a survival mechanism against discouragement, etc. Theologically, the issue you raise has been dealt with by men better than myself. As with your recoil from the "lumping together" method about what "materialists" think about this, this notion that there is some major problem with the omniscience/free will dichotomy is no more a "problem" than when materialists point out that we are "free to believe" whatever we want about things but that thinking itself is mostly predetermined by blind, mechanistic forces that evolved via hook and crook over great epochs of time as a way of, say, avoiding predators and forging community relations for survival. In other words, we "think" for much the same reason we eat avocados and why mice scurry along the floor and make mice nests in the attic: To make more copies of oneself.S Wakefield Tolbert
May 16, 2007
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