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Fuller vs. Ruse: some thoughts on the controversy

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I have just been reading two articles on Intelligent Design which appeared in The Guardian recently: Science in God’s image (May 3, 2010) and
Intelligent design is an oxymoron (May 5, 2010). After reading the articles, I decided to write a detailed commentary on them both.

The first article is by Professor Steve Fuller and represents his personal view. Although his personal “take” on intelligent design is a controversial one in ID circles, Professor Fuller certainly has a clear grasp of what ID is and where it is heading.

The second article is by Professor Michael Ruse. Professor Ruse has previously debated ID proponents, including Professor William Dembski, so one might reasonably expect him to write a well-informed critique. However, after reading his latest article, I regret to say that Professor Ruse never seems to have understood the nature of the Intelligent Design project in the first place.

1. My comments on Professor Steve Fuller’s article

The most interesting paragraph of Professor Fuller’s article is also the most controversial one. It warrants careful analysis.

The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less – and possibly no more – than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.

Before I comment on this paragraph, I’d like to recall what I wrote in a post entitled In Praise of Subtlety (22 April 2010), on the philosophy of John Duns Scotus, a medieval theologian known as the Subtle Doctor:

Scotus held that since intelligence and goodness were pure perfections, not limited by their very nature to a finite mode of realization, they could be predicated univocally of God and human beings. To be sure, God’s way of knowing and loving is altogether different from ours: it belongs to God’s very essence to know and love perfectly, whereas we can only know and love by participating in God’s knowledge and love. Also, God’s knowledge and goodness are essentially infinite, while our knowledge and goodness are finite. However, what it means for God to know and love is exactly the same as what it means for human beings to know and love.

However, God is not a Superman. Speaking as a Christian who professes the Catholic faith, and who happens to admire certain aspects of Duns Scotus’ philosophy, I would reverse Professor Fuller’s statement that God is an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, for two reasons: first, it exposes believers to the charge of anthropomorphism, and of making God in our own image; second, the ideal Homo sapiens is still an embodied being, whereas God is a spirit. What I would say instead is that human beings possess intelligence and moral goodness to a finite degree, precisely because they are made in the image and likeness of the infinite God. But whereas God is Intelligence and Goodness personified, humans can only know and love by participating in God’s intelligence and love.

What about Professor Fuller’s statement that “biology is divine technology”? This is a statement which no scientist or theologian needs to fear, if by “technology” we simply mean the generation of things whose creation requires skill. By “skill” I mean an activity performed by an intelligent agent acting intentionally, and resulting in information that generates a specific pattern or form. Skill, as I define it here, does not have to include the physical activity of assembling the parts of a thing, piece by piece. God is perfectly free to create as He chooses, using either natural or supernatural means. The term “divine technology” therefore refers to God’s intentional activity of creating certain patterns in nature which embody a very specific kind of information.

As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere – whether directly (through an act of intervention), or indirectly (either by fine-tuning the initial conditions of the universe, or by building highly specific laws into the fabric of the cosmos, in order to generate the desired features). How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea. But ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.

Of course, religious believers are right to point out that even in the absence of any identifiable specifications, the cosmos, and every thing in it, would still need to be kept in being by God. For the cosmos is contingent; it cannot explain its own existence. This is a metaphysical fact, which believers (including many in the ID camp) will assent to. But ID itself is not a metaphysical project, but a scientific one. The question it seeks to answer in the biological arena is: are there any empirically identifiable features of living things that had to have been explicitly specified by their Creator, and if so, which ones?

The other paragraph I’d like to highlight from Steve Fuller’s essay is the following:

But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam’s fall, we are still created “in the image and likeness of God”. From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.

I agree with the theological point Fuller is making here. Of course the divine and human are comparable, despite the vast differences that separate them: even to say that God’s intelligence is infinite while that of humans is finite is to make a comparison, as it involves predicating intelligence of both God and human beings. The human intellect, which scientists use whenever they do science, is made in God’s image. Fuller’s modest statement that we “might be capable” (emphasis mine) of coming closer to God by using our intellects, which distinguish us from the other animals, is a worthy and pious hope. It is an historical fact that the pioneers of the scientific revolution thought they were thinking God’s thoughts after Him, and the contemporary scientific quest for a mathematically elegant “theory of everything” has a strong mystical streak: at heart, it reflects an endeavor to second-guess the way in which God, the Supreme Intelligence, would have designed the fundamental parameters of the cosmos.

This mysticism at the heart of science explains why Albert Einstein, although not a believer in a personal God, felt impelled to make declarations such as these: “I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research,” and “What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”

Not being an historian of science, I do not wish to take issue with Professor Fuller’s assertion, which he makes later on his article, that ID “is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists,” or with his view that the Scientific Revolution was to a large degree inspired by Protestant thinking. I will simply point out in passing that the scientific revolution is commonly considered to have begun with the publication of two ground-breaking works in 1543: Nicolaus Copernicus’s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) and Andreas Vesalius’s De humani corporis fabrica (On the Fabric of the Human body). Both of these works were written by Catholics. On the whole, I believe Christianity – whether Catholic or Protestant – to be a science-friendly religion.

In my opinion, however, Fuller’s observation that people today are taking science into their own hands, just as they took religion into their hands in the 16th and 17th centuries, is sociologically accurate, and he is surely right to draw parallels between the role of the Internet as the means by which people are now calling into question assertions made by experts in various scientific fields (think of global warming, for instance), and the role of the printing press in the 16th and 17th centuries as the vehicle through which statements by authority figures in the religious domain were brought into question.

2. My comments on Professor Michael Ruse’s article

I am very sorry to say that Professor Ruse’s article, Intelligent design is an oxymoron, contains about as many factual and logical inaccuracies as it contains statements. These inaccuracies relate to science, philosophy and religion. To illustrate my point, I shall quote excerpts from the article and briefly comment on each.

At the heart of Steve Fuller’s defense of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.

The first paragraph of Professor Ruse’s article is riddled with factual errors. Where to begin?

(1) Full marks to Professor Ruse for acknowledging that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. At least he got that right.

(2) Professor Ruse is quite wrong in claiming that Catholics believe good works will get you to Heaven. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares the contrary: “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved” (paragraph 2005). Paragraphs 1987-2029 of the Catechism explain what the Catholic Church actually teaches on grace and justification. Readers will be pleasantly surprised to learn that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer on these issues than is popularly assumed.

(3) Pelagius, according to the same catechism, “held that man could by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life” (paragraph 406). As the catechism mentions in a footnote, Pelagius’s teachings (including a watered-down version of his views, called Semipelagianism) were officially condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

(4) Saint Augustine did not label the Catholic position “Pelagianism.” On the contrary, he did everything in his power (including lobbying two Popes) to get the Catholic Church to condemn Pelagius’ errors – an endeavor in which he was finally successful.

(5) The Catechism of the Catholic Church approvingly cites St. Augustine no less than six times in its article on Grace and Justification (paragraphs 1987-2029). Which is a pretty odd thing to do if St. Augustine said the Catholic Church was in “heresy,” don’t you think?

Not a good start. And I’m afraid it doesn’t get better. Here’s another excerpt:

In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity.

(1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him.

(2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point.

(3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project.

(4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism.

Professor Ruse opens his third paragraph with the following jaw-dropper:

The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor.

Now, if Professor Ruse had claimed that science does not explicitly invoke God as a causal factor, he would have been on strong argumentative ground. But to say that science does not allow God as a causal factor is patently absurd. Or does Ruse really think that scientists can legislate God out of existence?

Professor Ruse goes on to cite a nineteenth-century Anglican divine, William Whewell, on the limits of science:

“The mystery of creation is not within the range of her [science’s] legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards.”

Three points in reply:

(1) Whewell’s view on the limits of science is a venerable and respected one; but that does not make it right. In the end, science is the quest for the best explanations of the phenomena we observe. In the last few decades, modern science has encountered certain highly specified phenomena, within the domains of both physics (finely tuned constants of nature) and biology (specified complexity within the cell). Maybe methodological naturalism needs to be questioned.

(2) Intelligent Design theory does not specify the identity of the Designer, as Professor Ruse is well aware.

(3) Even if ID proponents were to reason like Professor Fuller would like them to do, and try to reverse-engineer the cell, assuming it to have been designed by an infinitely intelligent Being (God), the modus operandi of the Creator would still remain a mystery. Thus even if scientists were to abandon methodological naturalism and embrace theism, creation would retain an aura of mystery for them.

Professor Ruse continues:

In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists – Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America – were deeply committed Christians.

Now, Fisher was indeed a devout Anglican, despite his rather Darwinian views on eugenics; but Dobzhansky’s religious views were anything but Christian, according to this interesting article by Denyse O’Leary. A eulogy published by Dobzhansky’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of his religion thus: “Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.” [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity, Vol. 68, January-February 1977, p. 9.]

Professor Ruse goes on to accuse ID proponents of being defeatists, and hence no true scientists:

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don’t blame the world. They blame themselves. You don’t give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science.

(1) Contrary to what Ruse claims, ID proponents are eternally grateful to Watson and Crick for persevering in their quest to identify the structure of DNA. Without their persistence, scientists would never have known that DNA is a digital code, which contains a large amount of specified information. It was precisely this feature of DNA that Dr. Stephen Meyer highlighted in his recent book, Signature in the Cell, in which he argued that only the intentional activity of an intelligent agent could adequately explain the occurrence of DNA.

(2) ID proponents would never urge a scientist to give up trying to understand a process that is already known to occur, such as heredity. We should never give up trying to understand what things are; that’s science. The question that preoccupies ID is where they came from, or what process generated them in the first place.

(3) ID invokes an Intelligent Designer only when it has established that the probability of a specified biological feature arising as a result of the laws of nature coupled with random processes, falls below a well-defined threshold. Thus if evolutionary naturalism is true, then the emergence of this feature would be astronomically improbable. In a situation like this, invoking an Intelligent Designer is not “giving up”; on the contrary, it simply amounts to a rational decision to stop flogging a dead horse (evolutionary naturalism).

(4) As a scientific project, Intelligent Design does not equate the Designer with God, even if many ID proponents happen to believe that the Designer is in fact God.

In any case, there’s no need to worry, Professor Ruse assures us: science has succeeded in explaining away the very phenomena that gave rise to ID theory.

And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

(1) Regarding the flagellum: curious readers may like to click here to hear Professor Michael Behe explain why, in his view, the flagellum is irreducibly complex, on Intelligent Design the Future. Behe also examines the two currently proposed evolutionary explanations for the assembly of the flagellum, co-option and homology, showing why both proposals fall short in uncovering the origins of this molecular machine. See also Behe’s recent blog post, “Reducible complexity’ in PNAS, which debunks claims that the evolution of the flagellum has now been explained in naturalistic terms, without the need for a Designer.

(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade.

I am not a scientist; but my impression is that Professor Behe acquits himself well in this dispute.

Professor Ruse has argued robustly, if erroneously, up to this point. But suddenly his tone changes from aggressive to wounded:

ID is theology – very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem – the problem of evil – rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?

(1) ID as such does not claim that God interacts with the world on a daily basis. Another possibility, for those who accept ID, is that God fine-tuned the initial conditions of the cosmos at the beginning of time, so as to bring about the eventual emergence of irreducibly complex systems, such as the blood clotting cascade. No supernatural intervention is required on this scenario.

(2) Repairing mutations which occur in millions of individuals, and relate to thousands of different diseases, would demand a lot more Divine intervention than the single act of creating an irreducibly complex system.

(3) “What about preventing these mutations from happening in the first place?” I hear you ask. Easier said than done, and until we know the biological cost associated with doing that, it’s premature to complain about God not doing so. Some of these mutations might be beneficial in certain circumstances; removing them might not be a good idea.

(4) Religious believers would add that the Fall of our first parents might well have prevented God from intervening to prevent human suffering as often as He would have liked, during human history. Perhaps God’s hands are tied to some extent, by His promise to respect our freedom.

(5) The rhetorical argument proves too much, and could be used against any kind of personal religion: “If God thought it worth His time to [answer a prayer or work a miracle], then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?”

Professor Ruse concludes:

Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles – apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day – then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.

Three short comments in reply:

(1) God conserves everything in being. Like it or not, God is involved in the “day-to-day functioning of things.”

(2) As the Creator of the cosmos, God is entitled to work miracles as rarely or as often as He wishes, and for whatever reason He wishes.

(3) Professor Ruse should not try to tell God what to do.

Comments
vjtorley @79,
Finally, Dr. Michael Behe’s 2007 book, The Edge of Evolution, contains dozens of falsifiable ID claims, as he lists no less than 22 different kinds of features of the natural world, which he claims were fine-tuned: 1. Laws of nature 2. Physical constants 3. Ratios of fundamental constants 4. Amount of matter in the universe 5. Speed of expansion in the universe 6. Properties of elements such as carbon 7. Properties of chemicals such as water 8. .........
Systems such as the universe are dynamic. We can't treat it as a collection of static relationships between objects. If you change one characteristic, you have indirectly changed another. For instance, a 1% drop in the speed of light might result in photons striking matter on Earth with less energy, but may also result in photons packed closer together in streams of particles, resulting in a larger amount of them striking their targets resulting in absolutely no change in energy transfer at all. I don't see the ID side addressing these type of dynamic relationships when they raise the fine-tuning argument. They treat the universe as if any characteristic is independently variable.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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vj thanks for the links: Your challenge to falsify any of these 22 features will of course go unmet. Moreover, so far as I have seen, this will not preclude the Darwinian evolutionist from offering mountains of evidence for evolution. Yet when asked to actually produce this evidence the evidence always turns out to be,,,, ,,,Heavy Clouds, No Rain - Sting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiTM2O2CQxc Proverbs 25:14 As clouds and wind without rain, so is one who takes credit for an offering he has not given. Sting - Heavy Cloud No Rain - Lyrics Excerpt: Back in time with Louis XVI At the court of the people he was number one He'd be the bluest blood they'd ever seen When the king said hi to the guillotine The royal astrologer was run out of breath He thought that maybe the rain would postpone his death He look in sky but he look in vain Heavy cloud but no rain http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/sting/heavy+cloud+no+rain_20132071.htmlbornagain77
May 9, 2010
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madbat089 (#58) Here are some more links relating to falsifiable predictions of ID: 1. On the Eye http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627594.000-optical-fibre-cells-transform-our-weird-retinas.html ("Evolution gave flawed eye better vision" - article in "New Scientist," 7 May 2010. After reading this article, I'd say the ball's in the Darwinians' court now. They can still say that evolution made the best of a bad design. However, they no longer have any empirical evidence that the design of the eye is bad. Now the only argument they have to fall back on is the aesthetic argument: the design of the eye looks ugly, so God couldn't have made it.) 2. On the Human Genome http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/05/07/does_the_human_genome_have_serious_molec ("Does the Human Genome Have 'Serious Molecular Shortcomings'?" by David Tyler. The article comments on recent claims by Dr. John Avise that it does.) Incidentally, Dr. John Avise certainly believes ID is falsifiable, or he would not have written a scientific paper purporting to do just that. In my last post, I referred you to a page with three links to scientific articles. One of these dealt with the origin of the metazoa. (See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17660714&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum .) You commented as follows:
That article introduced a very interesting theory on a common ancestor for all metazoa, that might have already contained a lot of the genetic coding used for various functions in later, more complex metazoa. The article does not only not raise a single argument in favor of ID...
Surely you jest. Ancestral life-forms with genetic coding for functions that won't appear in their descendants for hundreds of millions of years are not evidence for ID? "Ah, but the code may have served some other function in the past," I hear you say. Well: there's your testable prediction, isn't it? ID would predict: no, not in all cases. Neo-Darwinian evolution would predict: yes, in all cases. Here's another falsifiable prediction of ID: just adding water to peptides won't get you a living thing, or even a functional protein. Finally, Dr. Michael Behe's 2007 book, The Edge of Evolution, contains dozens of falsifiable ID claims, as he lists no less than 22 different kinds of features of the natural world, which he claims were fine-tuned: 1. Laws of nature 2. Physical constants 3. Ratios of fundamental constants 4. Amount of matter in the universe 5. Speed of expansion in the universe 6. Properties of elements such as carbon 7. Properties of chemicals such as water 8. Location of solar system in the galaxy 9. Location of planet in the solar system 10. Origin and properties of Earth-Moon 11. Origins and properties of functioning biochemicals, such as DNA 12. Origin of life 13. Cells 14. Genetic code 15. Multi-protein complexes 16. Molecular machines 17. Biological kingdoms 18. Developmental genetic programs 19. Integrated protein networks 20. Phyla 21. Cell types 22. Classes Debunk the evidence of fine-tuning for any of the above, and you've demolished at least one plank of the case for ID.vjtorley
May 9, 2010
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PS: Pardon the rush and typos as a result. Linking to where I had to correct ET further, here. PPS: Toronto, Origins science needs to cogently address what Mrs O'Leary has aptly called the four big bangs: origin of a fine tuned for life complex cosmos, origin of life, origin of biodiversity, origin of mind with morality. Intelligent agency has no in principle problems with any of the four, though mechanisms used is an interesting exploration; materialist views run into trouble with all four. On the last, materialism reveals itself to be self-referentially incoherent and amoral -- thus necessarily false.kairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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kairosfocus, Could you address my comment at 61? Thanks.Toronto
May 9, 2010
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Toronto: By contrast with ET's onward deceptove strawman attacks in anotehr thread, you are positively civl:
Are you saying that from this point on, evolution as proposed by modern evolutionary theory, is accurate? It seems that you are mainly contesting origins of life. As far as origins of life, if stars can produce hydrogen and helium without any sort of ID input, why can’t the elements of life begin the same way?
1 --> OOL is a point of concern as the first majo4r body plan whose origin beyond the FSCI rthreshold needs to be explained. 2 --> Origin of every major body plan is also implicated, whereby unless a certain threshold of functionally specific, complex organization is achieved, and associated genetic and regulatory information is created, we do not have a viable organism or a reproducing population. 3 --> Per observations of genomes and the progress towards von Neumann replicators, we see that this implies information origin at a level that chance processes -- all that is available for high contingency once agency is ruled out ex hypothesi -- is a credible source on. 4 --> Thus, my target is macroevolution. The very term species is ill defined so I have no commitment to fixity of so-called species. 5 --> And BTW even current young earth creationists accept rapid diversification to fit niches [mostly through genetic loss of diversity due to multiple genes giving riser to blended characteristics, e.g. dog variability across domestic dogs and wolves etc], targetting the family level as the likely threshold of the biblical Kind in many cases. 6 --> SWo, now, wher eis your explanation how, on chance plus necessity only we get to body plans stwrting weiththe first? 7 --> By contrast we see where once we have a big bang, and fairly fine tuned conditions, we can get to galaxies, stars and terrestrial planets in circumstellar habitable zones in galactic habitable zones. (Mind you such cases will be rather rare, as the hot jupiters in odd orbits points to) 8 --> But to get form that to chem evo or to get to ist life thence major body plans is a different order of problem. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 9, 2010
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@Cabal There may be some evolutionary process which is yet unknown which is not like a blind search so perhaps I should rather limit it to mutation and natural selection. I believe mutation and natural selection is akin to a blind search in the same way I believe a polygon where all the side are right angles and equal length are squares i.e. no amount of additional knowledge can change that. In fact just the opposite more data more information can confuse the argument as we are distracted by knowledge which is not relevant. I agree with you about Weasel and Avida etc and the value of genetic algorithms etc. Ironically I see Weasel and Avida as compelling proof that blind evolution simply won't work as they cannot do without some internal "knowledge" to draw upon. Lastly I think there is a good chance that in 150 years we may realise we never knew as much as we thought we did. Sort of like what has happened over the last 50 years. Seems like in absolute terms we know more but we find out that things are much more complicated than we thought and that as a percentage we know less than what we thought we do. Its sort of comforting to me that there will always be some mystery and therefore some adventure in the discovery.andrewjg
May 9, 2010
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andrewjg,
So evolution is more like a blind search.
I've done my best to learn and understand the theory of evolution for more that fifty years and I still find I have a lot to learn. I learn something new almost every day. Have you really tried to fathom the vastness of the evolutionary enterprise? It is complex; it is complicated; it relies on a humongous amount of detail, and the project is far from finished yet. Another 150 years will do very much to improve and refine our understanding. Whereas, if I may say so, twenty years have not done anything for ID. As far as I am concerned, twenty years have convinced many that ID is a lost cause. Something that never was and never will be except a lame attempt at resurrecting creationism. WRT Weasel, it is not the only game in town. Computer simulations are a very important scientific as well as industrial/commercial tool, and generic algorithms are proving their value every day. I do not understand mathematics, but I understand how and why computer simulations are such powerful tools.Cabal
May 8, 2010
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To above: I don't mind your questions at all, and I really appreciate your politeness. It's something often lacking in posts like these. To answer, yes, I believe in what is commonly known as reincarnation, although I don't subscribe to the often held Eastern belief that our next life is a kind of reward for our goodness or badness in this one. As to whether God is personal or not, my belief is that He/She/It is kind of both. I agree with what is written in Conversations with God, that we are One with God, an actual part of Her, made in His image and likeness. But everything is also part of It; there is nothing that is not God. It is my conviction that every religion, Eastern and Western, embodies part of the Truth, but not all of it. Each contains error, partly the result of the interpretations of those who came after the original founder, partly due to the fact that even as highly evolved beings as Jesus, Mohammad, and the Buddha are still imperfect filters, partly due to the inability of language to convey the Truth accurately and completely, partly due to translation errors, and partly due to the fact that original founders were delivering their messages to people in a particular time and place, and it was tailored to what their listeners were capable of hearing. I think that a huge amount of the mischief abroad in the world today is the result of the conviction on the part of so many people that words written centuries ago (the Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, etc.) are the complete and only Word of God, that no new information on the subject of religious truth is possible.Bruce David
May 8, 2010
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@Bruce I actually started reading the first chapter already and it sounds very interesting. I hope you don't mind me asking, but you seem to believe in both reincarnation as well as personal God? Is that correct? So something between the Western tradition of monotheism and the Eastern tradition of Hindu/Buddha? Forgive me if my question(s) is/are inapropriate, I just found some of the things you said interesting like I said and wanted to hear more. I think that one of the many ways we learn in life. You don't have to answer if you don't want.above
May 8, 2010
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To above, #48: I really don't want to try to summarize the theology presented in Conversations with God, because I don't believe that I can do it justice in the space available. If you're interested, I strongly recommend that you read the first book. Then if it calls to you, you will read the rest of them, as I did (over and over). To answer your question, "What exactly do you mean ‘how long it will take each of us’?", I believe that we experience many of physical existences (lives) before we have finally exhausted the possibilities here. The purpose is, ultimately, spiritual growth, and we each progress at our own speed. Some of us move through rapidly, and some hang around to savor all the types and nuances of experience we can have, for example.Bruce David
May 8, 2010
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Tragic Mishap, First, I am not a Christian. Second, you obviously regard the Bible as a (the?) source of truth. I have two questions for you: 1. Which interpretation of the Bible? Catholic dogma? Martin Luther's? William Dembski's? Your own? 2. How do you know? This is my question for anyone who is certain they know the truth, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist materialist, or any other brand of certainty. How do you know?Bruce David
May 8, 2010
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madbat089, I don't expect to get a clear response from you on this question, but maybe it's worth a try. Could you give me a definition for what you would consider to be "positive evidence?" I notice you characterize ID as solely negative arguments, and it would be nice to see what kind of evidence it would need to bring about to have a positive case in it's favor.F2XL
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus @64,
For, until one has a functional body plan — from the first one on — which is capable of self-replication, one cannot have competing populations.
Are you saying that from this point on, evolution as proposed by modern evolutionary theory, is accurate? It seems that you are mainly contesting origins of life. As far as origins of life, if stars can produce hydrogen and helium without any sort of ID input, why can't the elements of life begin the same way?Toronto
May 8, 2010
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@efren ts Have a look at http://evoinfo.org/weasel. The "Weasel Algorithm" relies on a "oracle" to tell it if it is getting closer or further away from the target in order to greatly improve the time it takes to find the solution. Evolution is not like that it is blind. It cannot know if a mutation provides an intermediate step to something beneficial until that happens. It simply wont get selected because it provides no fitness benefit. So evolution is more like a blind search.andrewjg
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus, Efren is right. The experiment you describe completely omits the mechanism of cumulative selection:
An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph.
Because your scenario lacks selection, it is irrelevant to discussions of evolution.pelagius
May 8, 2010
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oops 10's to 100s of million bases to get the Cambrian life revo from unicellulars.kairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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ET: You, sadly, are playing at strawman caricature and question-begging games. As Apollos aptly points out. I am -- and have long been -- very aware that darwinian evolutionism, from the beginning in 1859, speaks to chance variation [of various kinds] and environmental, probabilistically filtered culling of existing competing sub-populations [aka natural selection, etc]. Indeed, this is an idea that more traces to Wallace than Darwin. Yes, him of the idea of Intelligent Evolution -- check out his remarks on say feathers. But, that RV + NS --> origin of novel species is precisely the begged question. For, until one has a functional body plan -- from the first one on -- which is capable of self-replication, one cannot have competing populations. Functionality must come first in other words. And such functionality requires origin of significant functional, complex, specific information by chance/happenstance processes; of whatever type. Or, as I have said over and over, one has to get to the shores of islands of function in the midst of an overwhelmingly large sea of non-functional configurations, before one may hill-climb to optimal function by differential environmental success of competing sub populations. In short the problem with the fitness landscape models so often used is that the vast majority of the landscape isn't. It is a sea of non-function, without capability of rewarding non function that is closer to function. For, non-function means non-existence or inability to replicate. For instance for simple unicellular life we are looking at at least 100's of k bases of DNA, and to get multicellular body plans similar to those we see in say the Cambrian revo, we are looking at moving up to 10's to 100's of k bases or bits. But, just 1,000 bits specifies a number of possible configurations that exceeds the number of possible atomic states of the 10^80 or so atoms of our observed cosmos, by a factor of 10^150. In short, our observed universe does not have a sufficient gamut to credibly search the config space of the sort of scope for life forms. But, routinely, intelligences produce entities with that sort of quantum of functionally specific complex info, e.g. this blog thread. So, ET, pardon a few direct words: why not at least look through the weak argument correctives and the always linked notes through my handle, before asserting such strawman arguments again. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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madbat is acronym challenged. Everyone should speak slower and louder. KF, you must not understand evolution. Once there exists a complex, functional, self-replicating nano-machine of staggering technological sophistication and complexity, with the ability to decipher and process stored instructions beyond any other code ever seen or written, then Darwinian mechanisms take over from there. You also need to understand that early in life's development, organisms that had the ability to translate and process massively complex coding instructions had a survival advantage over those that didn't, and won out in the end. Obviously, that's why we see them today.Apollos
May 8, 2010
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KF
An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph.
Of course, you have provided a source to model variation, but have forgotten evolution also includes selection. You are probably unaware of it, but Richard Dawkins created a throwaway piece of code that models both random variation and selection. It takes a random series of alphabetic characters, produces offspring, measures their fitness, and repeats the cycle with the most fit offsping. With a surprisingly low number of generations, the program produces the sentence "Me thinks it is like a weasel." You should look into it. HTH.efren ts
May 8, 2010
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kairosfocus @59,
So much so that under normal circumstances we routinely infer from FSCI to intelligence. (And if you care to check, at 1,000 bits or 125 bytes of info, the number of possible configs exceeds the number of states the observable cosmos can have over its lifespan by something like a factor of 10^150. That’s why we can be highly confident you will not see such a text originating by lucky noise. As this thread shows, intelligent agents routinely generate such
I have yet to receive a response whenever I question this form of argument from the ID side so I hope you will step up and answer it. The Evo position is that evolution is a process that works by transitioning from (state_N) to (state_N+1). Here is an example: StateN = 10110010 StateN + 1 = 10110011 If ony one bit mutates every generation, how many generations might it take to get to StateN + 1? I calculate the likely amount of generations to be 8. The ID side usually responds with 2^8 or 256. Your 1000 bits, would likely take only 1000 (lifeforms or generations) to transition from StateN to StateN + 1, not 2^1000 (lifeforms or generations). Are we in agreement?Toronto
May 8, 2010
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kairofocus: Strawman? GEM? TKI? FSCI? how about english? Reviewing the "weak argument correctives" and links therein you pointed to will take me a little bit, but thanks to you and the authors of those for a few actually scientific sources... so there might actually be something to discuss here... I shall be back! To your example: you obviously have no idea what the theory of evolution actually entails. Neither Darwin, nor any of the thousands of evolutionary biologists after him ever claimed that any biological system ever came to be by random "spewing" (to emulate you vocabulary) of chemical substances. You might want to read up on the principles of "natural & sexual selection", so your next example can actually make a qualified contribution to the discussion.madbat089
May 8, 2010
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MB: Strawman. Why not start with the Weak Argument Correctives top right this page? As an example of testability with one reference but many billions of instances, try the test of the origin of web pages on the internet. It is known that communication networks suffer noise and that they can in principle generate any signal pattern. So, why not generate some noise and thereby make a coherent web page with text and images etc, properly formatted in html or whatever? An easy way to try would be to use a zener source and an amplifier to spew noise on a disk at random. See if you ever will get a page with at least 125 bytes of coherent information, about a 20 world paragraph. This illustrates the real point: it is empirically very well tested indeed, that FSCI is the product of intelligence. So much so that under normal circumstances we routinely infer from FSCI to intelligence. (And if you care to check, at 1,000 bits or 125 bytes of info, the number of possible configs exceeds the number of states the observable cosmos can have over its lifespan by something like a factor of 10^150. That's why we can be highly confident you will not see such a text originating by lucky noise. As this thread shows, intelligent agents routinely generate such.) So, when we see codes, programs, data structures and step by step processes in the living cell, we have very good reason to infer that the best explanation is what we know is the routine source of such things. DESIGN. Cf here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=related GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 8, 2010
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vjtorley: I checked out all the posts for "testable predictions" on the page you suggested (a meager total of 3): Only one of them actually led me to a scientific article. That article introduced a very interesting theory on a common ancestor for all metazoa, that might have already contained a lot of the genetic coding used for various functions in later, more complex metazoa. The article does not only not raise a single argument in favor of ID, it actually rests on the foundation of evolutionary theory (common ancestor, development of more complex organisms over time, functional re-assignement of genetic coding and morphological features for new purposes); so, how exactly is any of this giving ID scientific credibility?madbat089
May 8, 2010
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madbat089 (#33) Thank you for your post. If you're looking for testable predictions, try this page: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve1.html#god-intelligent-design and scroll down to "Scientifically Testable Predictions." Others might like to add more.vjtorley
May 7, 2010
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Lenoxus (#34) Just a quick comment in response to your post. Believing that a feature of the natural world was intelligently designed does not preclude scientifically investigating its origin. It just means we should avoid dogmatic commitments such as: "It had to have originated by a law-governed process." We need to keep an open mind about the modus operandi of the Designer. If you want to read something by a scientist who takes ID very seriously and who also believes we can empirically investigate the origin of life, then I'd recommend this article by Dr. Robert Sheldon at http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2010/03/29/comets_and_cosmology.thtml . It reports on several recent eye-opening discoveries, and also discusses avenues for future scientific research. Comparing the origin of life to Kepler's laws is like comparing apples and oranges. Kepler's third law is mathematically simple. It can be written in one line: T^2 = K.r^3. Life is not that simple. The DNA in the cell contains a very large amount of information that is in a highly specific sequence. Figuring out how such an order-specific sequence arose is likely to be far, far harder than figuring out how the planets move. Still, I would agree with you that that's no reason why we shouldn't try.vjtorley
May 7, 2010
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Well, you know the old saying: "With "evolution," all things are possible."Ilion
May 7, 2010
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@Ilion 45/47 Thanks. I thought not. Your point in 47 is what I was thinking of when I asked it. A blind process determining a special case where a different kind of duplication is needed seems impossible.andrewjg
May 7, 2010
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Tragic mishap- I'm not sure where the problem is with what I said. It's pretty standard to say god is love or infinitely loving. How do we know this? We know this because jesus died for all of our sins past and future because man is imperfect and the cause of much of his own suffering. Only a loving God would do such a thing. I was simply building off the idea that C.S. Lewis had that God had written Jesus into history.Phaedros
May 7, 2010
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Show me where the Bible supports any of this, Phaedros and Bruce. Till then, I got nothing to say to you.tragic mishap
May 7, 2010
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