Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Fuller vs. Ruse: some thoughts on the controversy

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

.

I have just been reading two articles on Intelligent Design which appeared in The Guardian recently: Science in God’s image (May 3, 2010) and
Intelligent design is an oxymoron (May 5, 2010). After reading the articles, I decided to write a detailed commentary on them both.

The first article is by Professor Steve Fuller and represents his personal view. Although his personal “take” on intelligent design is a controversial one in ID circles, Professor Fuller certainly has a clear grasp of what ID is and where it is heading.

The second article is by Professor Michael Ruse. Professor Ruse has previously debated ID proponents, including Professor William Dembski, so one might reasonably expect him to write a well-informed critique. However, after reading his latest article, I regret to say that Professor Ruse never seems to have understood the nature of the Intelligent Design project in the first place.

1. My comments on Professor Steve Fuller’s article

The most interesting paragraph of Professor Fuller’s article is also the most controversial one. It warrants careful analysis.

The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less – and possibly no more – than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.

Before I comment on this paragraph, I’d like to recall what I wrote in a post entitled In Praise of Subtlety (22 April 2010), on the philosophy of John Duns Scotus, a medieval theologian known as the Subtle Doctor:

Scotus held that since intelligence and goodness were pure perfections, not limited by their very nature to a finite mode of realization, they could be predicated univocally of God and human beings. To be sure, God’s way of knowing and loving is altogether different from ours: it belongs to God’s very essence to know and love perfectly, whereas we can only know and love by participating in God’s knowledge and love. Also, God’s knowledge and goodness are essentially infinite, while our knowledge and goodness are finite. However, what it means for God to know and love is exactly the same as what it means for human beings to know and love.

However, God is not a Superman. Speaking as a Christian who professes the Catholic faith, and who happens to admire certain aspects of Duns Scotus’ philosophy, I would reverse Professor Fuller’s statement that God is an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, for two reasons: first, it exposes believers to the charge of anthropomorphism, and of making God in our own image; second, the ideal Homo sapiens is still an embodied being, whereas God is a spirit. What I would say instead is that human beings possess intelligence and moral goodness to a finite degree, precisely because they are made in the image and likeness of the infinite God. But whereas God is Intelligence and Goodness personified, humans can only know and love by participating in God’s intelligence and love.

What about Professor Fuller’s statement that “biology is divine technology”? This is a statement which no scientist or theologian needs to fear, if by “technology” we simply mean the generation of things whose creation requires skill. By “skill” I mean an activity performed by an intelligent agent acting intentionally, and resulting in information that generates a specific pattern or form. Skill, as I define it here, does not have to include the physical activity of assembling the parts of a thing, piece by piece. God is perfectly free to create as He chooses, using either natural or supernatural means. The term “divine technology” therefore refers to God’s intentional activity of creating certain patterns in nature which embody a very specific kind of information.

As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere – whether directly (through an act of intervention), or indirectly (either by fine-tuning the initial conditions of the universe, or by building highly specific laws into the fabric of the cosmos, in order to generate the desired features). How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea. But ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.

Of course, religious believers are right to point out that even in the absence of any identifiable specifications, the cosmos, and every thing in it, would still need to be kept in being by God. For the cosmos is contingent; it cannot explain its own existence. This is a metaphysical fact, which believers (including many in the ID camp) will assent to. But ID itself is not a metaphysical project, but a scientific one. The question it seeks to answer in the biological arena is: are there any empirically identifiable features of living things that had to have been explicitly specified by their Creator, and if so, which ones?

The other paragraph I’d like to highlight from Steve Fuller’s essay is the following:

But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam’s fall, we are still created “in the image and likeness of God”. From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.

I agree with the theological point Fuller is making here. Of course the divine and human are comparable, despite the vast differences that separate them: even to say that God’s intelligence is infinite while that of humans is finite is to make a comparison, as it involves predicating intelligence of both God and human beings. The human intellect, which scientists use whenever they do science, is made in God’s image. Fuller’s modest statement that we “might be capable” (emphasis mine) of coming closer to God by using our intellects, which distinguish us from the other animals, is a worthy and pious hope. It is an historical fact that the pioneers of the scientific revolution thought they were thinking God’s thoughts after Him, and the contemporary scientific quest for a mathematically elegant “theory of everything” has a strong mystical streak: at heart, it reflects an endeavor to second-guess the way in which God, the Supreme Intelligence, would have designed the fundamental parameters of the cosmos.

This mysticism at the heart of science explains why Albert Einstein, although not a believer in a personal God, felt impelled to make declarations such as these: “I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research,” and “What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”

Not being an historian of science, I do not wish to take issue with Professor Fuller’s assertion, which he makes later on his article, that ID “is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists,” or with his view that the Scientific Revolution was to a large degree inspired by Protestant thinking. I will simply point out in passing that the scientific revolution is commonly considered to have begun with the publication of two ground-breaking works in 1543: Nicolaus Copernicus’s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) and Andreas Vesalius’s De humani corporis fabrica (On the Fabric of the Human body). Both of these works were written by Catholics. On the whole, I believe Christianity – whether Catholic or Protestant – to be a science-friendly religion.

In my opinion, however, Fuller’s observation that people today are taking science into their own hands, just as they took religion into their hands in the 16th and 17th centuries, is sociologically accurate, and he is surely right to draw parallels between the role of the Internet as the means by which people are now calling into question assertions made by experts in various scientific fields (think of global warming, for instance), and the role of the printing press in the 16th and 17th centuries as the vehicle through which statements by authority figures in the religious domain were brought into question.

2. My comments on Professor Michael Ruse’s article

I am very sorry to say that Professor Ruse’s article, Intelligent design is an oxymoron, contains about as many factual and logical inaccuracies as it contains statements. These inaccuracies relate to science, philosophy and religion. To illustrate my point, I shall quote excerpts from the article and briefly comment on each.

At the heart of Steve Fuller’s defense of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.

The first paragraph of Professor Ruse’s article is riddled with factual errors. Where to begin?

(1) Full marks to Professor Ruse for acknowledging that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. At least he got that right.

(2) Professor Ruse is quite wrong in claiming that Catholics believe good works will get you to Heaven. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares the contrary: “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved” (paragraph 2005). Paragraphs 1987-2029 of the Catechism explain what the Catholic Church actually teaches on grace and justification. Readers will be pleasantly surprised to learn that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer on these issues than is popularly assumed.

(3) Pelagius, according to the same catechism, “held that man could by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life” (paragraph 406). As the catechism mentions in a footnote, Pelagius’s teachings (including a watered-down version of his views, called Semipelagianism) were officially condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

(4) Saint Augustine did not label the Catholic position “Pelagianism.” On the contrary, he did everything in his power (including lobbying two Popes) to get the Catholic Church to condemn Pelagius’ errors – an endeavor in which he was finally successful.

(5) The Catechism of the Catholic Church approvingly cites St. Augustine no less than six times in its article on Grace and Justification (paragraphs 1987-2029). Which is a pretty odd thing to do if St. Augustine said the Catholic Church was in “heresy,” don’t you think?

Not a good start. And I’m afraid it doesn’t get better. Here’s another excerpt:

In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity.

(1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him.

(2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point.

(3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project.

(4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism.

Professor Ruse opens his third paragraph with the following jaw-dropper:

The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor.

Now, if Professor Ruse had claimed that science does not explicitly invoke God as a causal factor, he would have been on strong argumentative ground. But to say that science does not allow God as a causal factor is patently absurd. Or does Ruse really think that scientists can legislate God out of existence?

Professor Ruse goes on to cite a nineteenth-century Anglican divine, William Whewell, on the limits of science:

“The mystery of creation is not within the range of her [science’s] legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards.”

Three points in reply:

(1) Whewell’s view on the limits of science is a venerable and respected one; but that does not make it right. In the end, science is the quest for the best explanations of the phenomena we observe. In the last few decades, modern science has encountered certain highly specified phenomena, within the domains of both physics (finely tuned constants of nature) and biology (specified complexity within the cell). Maybe methodological naturalism needs to be questioned.

(2) Intelligent Design theory does not specify the identity of the Designer, as Professor Ruse is well aware.

(3) Even if ID proponents were to reason like Professor Fuller would like them to do, and try to reverse-engineer the cell, assuming it to have been designed by an infinitely intelligent Being (God), the modus operandi of the Creator would still remain a mystery. Thus even if scientists were to abandon methodological naturalism and embrace theism, creation would retain an aura of mystery for them.

Professor Ruse continues:

In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists – Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America – were deeply committed Christians.

Now, Fisher was indeed a devout Anglican, despite his rather Darwinian views on eugenics; but Dobzhansky’s religious views were anything but Christian, according to this interesting article by Denyse O’Leary. A eulogy published by Dobzhansky’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of his religion thus: “Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.” [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity, Vol. 68, January-February 1977, p. 9.]

Professor Ruse goes on to accuse ID proponents of being defeatists, and hence no true scientists:

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don’t blame the world. They blame themselves. You don’t give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science.

(1) Contrary to what Ruse claims, ID proponents are eternally grateful to Watson and Crick for persevering in their quest to identify the structure of DNA. Without their persistence, scientists would never have known that DNA is a digital code, which contains a large amount of specified information. It was precisely this feature of DNA that Dr. Stephen Meyer highlighted in his recent book, Signature in the Cell, in which he argued that only the intentional activity of an intelligent agent could adequately explain the occurrence of DNA.

(2) ID proponents would never urge a scientist to give up trying to understand a process that is already known to occur, such as heredity. We should never give up trying to understand what things are; that’s science. The question that preoccupies ID is where they came from, or what process generated them in the first place.

(3) ID invokes an Intelligent Designer only when it has established that the probability of a specified biological feature arising as a result of the laws of nature coupled with random processes, falls below a well-defined threshold. Thus if evolutionary naturalism is true, then the emergence of this feature would be astronomically improbable. In a situation like this, invoking an Intelligent Designer is not “giving up”; on the contrary, it simply amounts to a rational decision to stop flogging a dead horse (evolutionary naturalism).

(4) As a scientific project, Intelligent Design does not equate the Designer with God, even if many ID proponents happen to believe that the Designer is in fact God.

In any case, there’s no need to worry, Professor Ruse assures us: science has succeeded in explaining away the very phenomena that gave rise to ID theory.

And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

(1) Regarding the flagellum: curious readers may like to click here to hear Professor Michael Behe explain why, in his view, the flagellum is irreducibly complex, on Intelligent Design the Future. Behe also examines the two currently proposed evolutionary explanations for the assembly of the flagellum, co-option and homology, showing why both proposals fall short in uncovering the origins of this molecular machine. See also Behe’s recent blog post, “Reducible complexity’ in PNAS, which debunks claims that the evolution of the flagellum has now been explained in naturalistic terms, without the need for a Designer.

(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade.

I am not a scientist; but my impression is that Professor Behe acquits himself well in this dispute.

Professor Ruse has argued robustly, if erroneously, up to this point. But suddenly his tone changes from aggressive to wounded:

ID is theology – very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem – the problem of evil – rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?

(1) ID as such does not claim that God interacts with the world on a daily basis. Another possibility, for those who accept ID, is that God fine-tuned the initial conditions of the cosmos at the beginning of time, so as to bring about the eventual emergence of irreducibly complex systems, such as the blood clotting cascade. No supernatural intervention is required on this scenario.

(2) Repairing mutations which occur in millions of individuals, and relate to thousands of different diseases, would demand a lot more Divine intervention than the single act of creating an irreducibly complex system.

(3) “What about preventing these mutations from happening in the first place?” I hear you ask. Easier said than done, and until we know the biological cost associated with doing that, it’s premature to complain about God not doing so. Some of these mutations might be beneficial in certain circumstances; removing them might not be a good idea.

(4) Religious believers would add that the Fall of our first parents might well have prevented God from intervening to prevent human suffering as often as He would have liked, during human history. Perhaps God’s hands are tied to some extent, by His promise to respect our freedom.

(5) The rhetorical argument proves too much, and could be used against any kind of personal religion: “If God thought it worth His time to [answer a prayer or work a miracle], then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?”

Professor Ruse concludes:

Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles – apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day – then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.

Three short comments in reply:

(1) God conserves everything in being. Like it or not, God is involved in the “day-to-day functioning of things.”

(2) As the Creator of the cosmos, God is entitled to work miracles as rarely or as often as He wishes, and for whatever reason He wishes.

(3) Professor Ruse should not try to tell God what to do.

Comments
Isn't it just the coolest thing how "evolution" came up with the elegant dual-solution of differentiating the X from the Y, such that recombination between the two chromosomes cannot happen (lest we all end up male), and also endowing the Y with "palindromes" so that it can still persorm copy-edit correction? ;)Ilion
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PST
I think that Christ did have to die so that people could learn about God even more. If I'm not mistaken, before Christ people were simply afraid of God and didn't really think about God's love or anything like that.Phaedros
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
09:55 AM
9
09
55
AM
PST
AndrewJG: "Thanks for the information. Thats actually quite interesting. So does this duplication only exist in the Y chromosome? If so that is quite amazing." I've not read of "palindromes" on any chromosome but the Y (nor would it be biologically necessary). Here's a discussion of the Y "palindromes" written for the popular audience.Ilion
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PST
@Bruce #7 I find your perspective very interesting to be honest although I have my reservations. I know you said, you're not going to provide a summary of walsch's book but I was hoping that you might elaborate a little more. Also Bruce: -"The only thing at issue is how long it will take each of us. But that is in our own hands" What exactly do you mean 'how long it will take each of us'?above
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PST
Wow, Bruce. You are totally off the deep end. Why are you even a Christian at all? I'm not even going to respond to this crap, because a lot of people already have. The authors of the Bible.tragic mishap
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PST
Whats with the infatuation with the meaning of 'evil' ? Who cares ? If you did manage to agree on a definition (which I doubt), what difference would it make ?Graham1
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
01:41 AM
1
01
41
AM
PST
@Bruce David You said there is really no such thing as good and evil. What would you categorise a lie as. I mean evil is a strong word but lets I believe a lie is wrong or a mild evil for all people at all times in all but the most extreme circumstances e.g. were sheltering a Jew during WWII. If someone lies to you is there any external basis or a universal basis for saying what they did was wrong other than your own thoughts and feelings?andrewjg
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
01:05 AM
1
01
05
AM
PST
@Ilion Thanks for the information. Thats actually quite interesting. So does this duplication only exist in the Y chromosome? If so that is quite amazing.andrewjg
May 7, 2010
May
05
May
7
07
2010
12:58 AM
12
12
58
AM
PST
Phaedros: You said, "That goes well with what William Lane Craig says. He says that this world is not meant for happiness, but for knowing God." Yes, and I would add that knowing oneSelf is intimately tied up with knowing God, since we are One with Him and since we are made in His image and likeness. I would also add that the joy, love, peace, wonder, and wisdom that is experienced when we finally come know ourSelves and God compared with mere happiness is like the sun compared to a candle.Bruce David
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
11:42 PM
11
11
42
PM
PST
Tragic Mishap: You said, "Bruce David, if evil doesn’t exist, than what do you call rebellion against God? If evil doesn’t exist, than why did Christ have to die? If evil doesn’t exist, isn’t salvation universal, since as soon as everyone dies they are no longer tied to the physical world and thus cannot be evil?" Your questions are steeped in Christian dogmatism, which I for the most part don't accept. I'll take them one at a time. "If evil doesn’t exist, than what do you call rebellion against God?" In my theology, there is no such thing as rebellion against God. God has given us not only free will, but actual freedom. The Christian idea that a totally self-sufficient God would need anything from us is an anathema to me. God loves us unconditionally and will never punish us. Why would he? (Punishment is not the same as consequences, by the way. There are consequences. What goes around, comes around.) "If evil doesn’t exist, than why did Christ have to die?" He didn't. But who wants to hang around this plane of existence forever? The idea that Christ died for our sins is totally ridiculous to me. God, the creator and sustainer of the Universe, can do whatever He wants. If he wants to forgive us, all He has to do is forgive us. He doesn't need anyone to suffer in order to do that. "If evil doesn’t exist, isn’t salvation universal, since as soon as everyone dies they are no longer tied to the physical world and thus cannot be evil?" This is correct. Salvation is universal. Every single one of us is going Home (even Hitler, even, dare I say it, Richard Dawkins). Would an infinitely loving God set it up any other way? The only thing at issue is how long it will take each of us. But that is in our own hands.Bruce David
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
11:34 PM
11
11
34
PM
PST
"... I have read that the male Y chromosome is getting smaller relatively quickly. Could this be a result of genetic entropy since the Y chromosomes come from the male exclusively “bad” mutations cannot be corrected because there is only one copy." In fact, the Y chromosome contains "palindromes" -- regions which mirror the coding regions of the Y -- and thus effectively serve as the “second copy.”Ilion
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
09:20 PM
9
09
20
PM
PST
"... if evil doesn’t exist ..." Evil, whether we're talking about wickedness (moral evil) or about suffering (natural evil) exists analogously to the way darkness exists, as privation of good -- evil isn't a thing in itself.Ilion
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
09:12 PM
9
09
12
PM
PST
"Although a bit harsh, ..." My middle name is 'Harsh' ;)Ilion
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
09:08 PM
9
09
08
PM
PST
Jerry:
We are talking about God and if one does not believe in God then the theodicy argument is meaningless.
Not exactly. It is entirely reasonable, even meaningful, to debate whether or not it is plausible for a proposed entity to have all the attributes given to it. One does not need to agree that ball lightning exists in order to debate its ability to cause house fires, or that unicorns exist in order to discuss whether their horns might cure poison; likewise with God and omnibenovolence/potence. (Perhaps the most apt example: One does not need to believe that evolution happens in order to argue, as IDists do, that hypothetical evolutionary events are improbable.) As for the particular theodicy you suggest here… well, you know what they say about justice delayed.Lenoxus
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
08:52 PM
8
08
52
PM
PST
Seversky:
...evil lies in the purpose and act of causing harm to others, deliberately, recklessly and without just cause.
What is "just cause"?tragic mishap
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
07:46 PM
7
07
46
PM
PST
jerry:
We are talking about God and if one does not believe in God then the theodicy argument is meaningless.
Hardly. The argument from evil is a strong argument against the existence of an omnipotent, benevolent God.pelagius
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PST
Seversky, We are talking about God and if one does not believe in God then the theodicy argument is meaningless. I don't believe most of the ardent Darwinists believe in God so for them to bring it up is essentially an admission of defeat. If one believes in God, then one has to consider the purpose for His creation. If it is the Christian God, then there is an end for humans which is salvation. Anything else, pleasant or unpleasant, is of little consequence in such a scenario. That does not mean that one is to lead an ascetic life of denial though many have done so but it means that what happens in this life, while extremely pleasant or unpleasant, pales next to the end of God's creation. If you do not believe in a God that offers salvation and only this life here on earth then one can possibly argue that the frustration of the experience while on earth is of concern and then the intention of the Creator is an issue. But like the unbeliever what one does to another becomes an issue and one can call it what you want. If you want to use the term evil, that is your prerogative. But in your example, what you call evil lies not in the end result but in the intent of a will. No matter how the person was hit by the rock, the end result is the same for the person being hit. So evil lies not in the result but in the intention of a will. But for a God that does not offer salvation, what happens in this life whether by intent or not is an issue. Since theoretically He could design the system so one would not get hit by a rock through natural causes. Anything less than pure ecstatic joy would seem to be a shortcoming and evil for such a God. And we are getting to a world where many are demanding such things as a right. But as I said for Christians this is not an issue. And evil whatever form it takes shouldn't be a consideration for evolution. What I am trying to do here is not start some elaborate theological discussion but eliminate an objection people have for God because of the unpleasantness that occurs in this world whether to humans or for one animal to another and then insist that evolution must then be totally naturalistic because no Creator would sanction such a process by intent. For the Christian God, that objection is irrelevant.jerry
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
06:52 PM
6
06
52
PM
PST
How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea.
:) I'm just quoting this for posterity. It's adorable. When ID becomes an actual science, with fresh discoveries made each day, it can look back on the days when it naively thought so little of its own descriptive abilities. Or… maybe this gear is where it will always be stuck. After all, it was all the way back in 2002 that Dembski said "ID is not a mechanistic theory". In the eight years since then, it's amazing how much progress ID and UD haven't made. You promised not to take the bait, Dembski, and that's a promise ID has kept! If it's correct to say, as some of this blog's posts have, that Kepler (for example) was not a methodological naturalist because he felt he was thinking God's thoughts after him… then it would be great for IDists to start thinking some of God's thoughts, because (assuming God exists) that Kepler guy actually managed to figure out some of it! Many, perhaps most, of the world's greatest scientists felt they were investigating the manner(s) in which God brought reality about. IDists are not their intellectual heirs, because this way of looking at origins — that causes can not only be labeled, but described in detail — is that unspeakable methodology called naturalism. Just imagine a quote along the following lines: How these features evolved is unimportant; the question biology attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to have evolved? Or, a more "ID-friendly" equivalent: How the Nazca created these geoglyphs is unimportant; the question archaeology attempts to answer is: which features of the world can be shown to be created? I'd love to be an archaeologist if it were that simple.
ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.
Since "specification" has, up until now, been defined only in very subjective terms (based the number of concepts it takes to describe something), I do not doubt this in the slightest. :)Lenoxus
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
06:40 PM
6
06
40
PM
PST
"As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere..." so, vjtorley, if this is in your view the theory of ID, how do you suggest it belongs in the realm of science? A theory is only scientific if it is testable and falsifiable - do you know of any hypotheses and predictions you can derive from this theory than can actually be tested with scientific methods? I have yet to find a single article in any kind of peer reviewed scientific format that presents any such hypotheses and predictions, let alone results. And I am NOT talking about evidence that might weaken a different theory (in this case evolution), because that in and off itself does nothing to support ID, since there is an infinite number of equally untestable and thus unscientific theories available for alternative explanation. "(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade." not surprisingly, not a single one of the quoted "articles" defending the alleged irreducible complexity of the blood clotting cascade are actual scientific articles published in any kind of peer reviewed format. see above...madbat089
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
05:50 PM
5
05
50
PM
PST
If a man were killed by being hit by a rock dislodged from a cliff by an earthquake, we would think it a tragedy but not evil. On the other hand, if the rock were thrown down by someone with the intention of killing the victim we would consider that evil. In both cases, the man is killed by a rock but in the second, it is the act of an intelligent agent. From this we could argue that, in some cases at least, evil lies in the purpose and act of causing harm to others, deliberately, recklessly and without just cause.Seversky
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PST
jerry my definition of evil is extremely simple, and no it probably has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution. Evil is rebellion against God. It cannot exist without reference to good, but it certainly does exist.tragic mishap
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PST
off topic: a very good paper just came out in Nature that is featured on ENV: Nature Reports Discovery of "Second Genetic Code" But Misses Intelligent Design Implications Excerpt: A summary of this article also titled "Breaking the Second Genetic Code" in the print edition of Nature summarized this research thusly: "At face value, it all sounds simple: DNA makes RNA, which then makes protein. But the reality is much more complex. ... The code is likely to work in a cell-autonomous manner and, consequently, may need to account for more than 200 cell types in mammals." So what we're finding in biology are: # "beautiful" genetic codes that use a biochemical language; # Deeper layers of codes within codes showing an "expanding realm of complexity"; # Information processing systems that are far more complex than previously thought (and we already knew they were complex), including "the appearance of features deeper into introns than previously appreciated" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/05/nature_reports_discovery_of_se.htmlbornagain77
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PST
link fix for: The Thermodynamic Argument Against Materialism and Evolution - Thomas Kindell http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4168488bornagain77
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PST
I think this video comes as close to truly defining evil as I have ever seen: Does God Exist? - Finding a Good God in an Evil World http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007708 further notes: William Dembski's New Book "The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World" Is available at Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/End-Christianity-Finding-Good-World/dp/0805427430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254433434&sr=1-1 Excerpt here: Finding a Good God in an Evil World - William Dembski http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution - Thomas Kindell - Part 1 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI1RiTOQ4do Theodicy Without God? What Ive never understood about theodicy is this: why do atheists ponder the Problem of Evil? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/theodicy_without_god.html#more Little do most atheists realize that the existence of evil itself necessitates the existence of Good. i.e. you cannot disprove God by pointing to evil. All a atheist does when he points to evil in this world is to point out the fact that this world is not perfectly good, Yet Christianity never claimed we were in heaven in the first place. i.e. by pointing to evil (the absence of good), the atheist actually affirms the Christian belief that we are in a fallen world.bornagain77
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PST
Jerry, speaking of the role of natural selection, I just finished uploading a video on it: Natural Selection Falsified - Dr John Sanford - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4587204bornagain77
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PST
I just noticed StephenB in 19 made an attempt to define evil and he is the one person here who has proffered one before. Let me say thank you for the suggestion but I am not sure the dual definition gets at it. I really do not think the "exists outside of people" is meaningful. I would rather use the term "will" instead of "person." What is a privation of the good? I can only think of one "good" that would rise to the level of evil and it is not disease, pestilence, earthquakes, maiming etc. So if God does not set in motion anything that leads to a privation of the "good" how could he ever be evil or responsible for evil? Hence the theodicy issue over the centuries has been a waste of time. Now is there another type of evil that is reflected in the term "perversion of the will" and are they somehow related to the other evil or the privation of the "good." Is this perversion of the will only applicable to the privation of the "good" or can it have other domains? Where am I going in all this. Namely the instant dismal of the theodicy argument in any context and especially to the discussion of evolution.jerry
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PST
"Could this be a result of genetic entropy since the Y chromosomes come from the male exclusively “bad” mutations cannot be corrected because there is only one copy." The problem with such an argument as this is that there are 3 billion male Y chromosomes out there and if some of them went bad or defective they would not reproduce as well as those with ok chromosomes. Theoretically selection would preserve the Y chromosome unless for some strange reason a mutation or a shortening would be beneficial.jerry
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PST
tragic mishap, Why don't you define evil. Or anyone else for that matter. I personally believe some things are evil but I have yet to see anyone really define what it means. The argument brought up all the time is the theodicy argument and I happen to think it is a meaningless argument. A lot of people have written on this topic but I have not seen anything yet to make me believe it has any meaning. Ruse uses it. Steve Fuller uses it. Lots of theistic evolutionists use it. It is used by many here over the last five years to undermine ID. So what is evil and does it really have any significance to evolution.jerry
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
01:36 PM
1
01
36
PM
PST
Well andrewjg; you have to be careful of the evolutionary spin that is put on this evidence from the Y chromosome. Let me just lay out the evidence I have collected so far and let you judge where it is going: Do Human and Chimpanzee DNA Indicate an Evolutionary Relationship? Excerpt: the authors found that only 48.6% of the whole human genome matched chimpanzee nucleotide sequences. [Only 4.8% of the human Y chromosome could be matched to chimpanzee sequences.] http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2070 Recent Genetic Research Shows Chimps More Distant From Humans,,, - Jan. 2010 Excerpt: “many of the stark changes between the chimp and human Y chromosomes are due to gene loss in the chimp and gene gain in the human” since “the chimp Y chromosome has only two-thirds as many distinct genes or gene families as the human Y chromosome and only 47% as many protein-coding elements as humans.”,,,, “Even more striking than the gene loss is the rearrangement of large portions of the chromosome. More than 30% of the chimp Y chromosome lacks an alignable counterpart on the human Y chromosome, and vice versa,,," http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/04/recent_genetic_research_shows.html Chimp and human Y chromosomes evolving faster than expected - Jan. 2010 Excerpt: "The results overturned the expectation that the chimp and human Y chromosomes would be highly similar. Instead, they differ remarkably in their structure and gene content.,,, The chimp Y, for example, has lost one third to one half of the human Y chromosome genes. http://www.physorg.com/news182605704.html The evolutionary scientists of the preceding paper offered some evolutionary "just so" stories of "dramatically sped up evolution" for why there are such significant differences in the Y chromosomes of chimps and humans, yet when the Y chromosome is looked at for its rate of change we find there is no evidence for any change at all, much less the massive changes they are required to explain: CHROMOSOME STUDY STUNS EVOLUTIONISTS Excerpt: To their great surprise, Dorit and his associates found no nucleotide differences at all in the non-recombinant part of the Y chromosomes of the 38 men. This non-variation suggests no evolution has occurred in male ancestry. http://www.reasons.org/interpreting-genesis/adam-and-eve/chromosome-study-stuns-evolutionists I find it extremely interesting that the Y chromosome (male chromosome) would have such a pronounced "signature of individuality" in the human genome since it is clearly one of the primary chromosomes directly involved in overseeing human reproduction of males. A "reproductive individuality" for human men which, of course, has direct and severe contradictory implications to the Darwinian scenario since only the "reproductive mutations/variations" that manage to "slip thru" actually count in any Darwinian scenario.bornagain77
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PST
bornagain77, I have a question which you may be able to answer. I have read that the male Y chromosome is getting smaller relatively quickly. Could this be a result of genetic entropy since the Y chromosomes come from the male exclusively "bad" mutations cannot be corrected because there is only one copy. Just an idea.andrewjg
May 6, 2010
May
05
May
6
06
2010
01:03 PM
1
01
03
PM
PST
1 … 3 4 5 6