Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Have quantum physics’ problems been disgracefully swept under the carpet?

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Does anyone remember the microflap a while back when physicist Adam Becker decided to attack Inference Review as an ID-friendly rag over (so it seems) a less-than-flattering review of his book, What Is Real? The Unfinished Quest for the Meaning of Quantum Physics (Basic Books, 2018)?

Things haven’t fared that much better for Becker at The New Atlantis:

In What Is Real? the physicist and science writer Adam Becker offers a history of what his subtitle calls “the unfinished quest for the meaning of quantum physics.” Although it is certainly unfinished, it is, as quests go, a few knights short of a Round Table. After the generation of pioneers, foundational work in quantum mechanics became stigmatized as a fringe pursuit, a career killer. So Becker’s well-written book is part science, part sociology (a study of the extrascientific forces that helped solidify the orthodoxy), and part drama (a story of the ideas and often vivid personalities of some dissenters and the shabby treatment they have often received).

The publisher’s blurb breathlessly promises “the untold story of the heretical thinkers who dared to question the nature of our quantum universe” and a “gripping story of this battle of ideas and the courageous scientists who dared to stand up for truth.” But What Is Real? doesn’t live down to that lurid black-and-white logline. It does make a heartfelt and persuasive case that serious problems with the foundations of quantum mechanics have been persistently, even disgracefully, swept under the carpet.David Guaspari, “Make Physics Real Again” at The New Atlantis

Or two different carpets at once? Perhaps no one quite knows how to deal with the problems and everyone implicitly agrees not to raise the subject?

He summarizes the state of quantum mechanics as “a wildly successful theory, an embarrassment of interpretations, and a major challenge in moving past our theory to the next one.” The small but vigorous community doing work on foundations is less marginal than it used to be. The book’s final section sketches some of its current research and concludes modestly that the wisest course at present is accepting a pluralism of interpretations, or “at least humility.” “Quantum physics is at least approximately correct…. We just don’t know what that means yet. And it’s the job of physics to find out.” David Guaspari,Make Physics Real Again” at The New Atlantis

Maybe quantum physics is only “approximately correct” and we can’t get more correct down at that level? If so, then what?

Okay, so Becker’s book didn’t satisfy a lot of people. Now back to Inference Review for a minute. Not everyone hates Inference Review:

As for the dark and powerful forces at Inference, the list of their editors is now public (and quite distinguished). Yes, it seems to be Thiel’s money, but, if it’s paying for good science writing (modulo some early dubious choices), so what? Peter Woit, “On Inference” at Not Even Wrong

But Sabine Hossenfelder, author of Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray, and frequent quote-ee around here tells Peter Woit in the combox that she had a bad experience there:

I was contacted by someone from Inference some years ago. They asked me to write an essay for them and made a pretty good financial offer. I put a lot of effort in this and submitted the piece as requested.

After some while I received a revision from an anonymous editor who had garbled up my argument so badly and misrepresented my opinion so much that I could see no common ground and just refused to agree it be published. Luckily I hadn’t signed the letter of agreement, so I had no trouble pulling out of this. (Otoh, I didn’t get the kill fee either.) I then shortened the piece and published it elsewhere. Sabine Hossenfelder, “comment at February 2, 2019 to On Inference” at Not Even Wrong

That’s too bad. We always try to read what Hossenfelder writes.

Follow UD News at Twitter!

See also: Inference Review did not set out to make a fool of Adam Becker (Needless effort, say the editors.)

and

The origin of language remains obscure Some thoughts on two items from Inference Review, one co-authored by Noam Chomsky.

Comments
Brother Brian, Singularities such as the absence of gravity attested to by the markings of the body delineated on the Holy Shroud of Turin, ensuing from the incredibly bright flash of UV radiation, virtually by definition, would hardly be susceptible to mathematical analysis, although the intensity of the radiation necessary for it to be caused was calculated. Moreover, the scientists discovered a wealth of 3-dimensional, digital information relating to the markings left by the body, that is never been found on any other picture. Pedantry will get you nowhere sensible on a subject such as this. It's like asking whether any ash-trays were damaged after an airliner crashed.Axel
May 4, 2019
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After rreading so much material here pointing out the birth and development of empirical science under the aegis of Christian culture, I was absolutely intrigued to realise that the exploitation, at least of such mysteries of QM as have currently been established with impeccable precision mirrors the methodology, the paradigm, of the Roman Catholic theologians' acceptance of the Christian mysteries as plain, ineluctable realities, and then having recourse to them, as springboards and staging posts on the path to further discoveries by pursuing orthodox logic. It was, in fact, what prompted me to view successful QM in that light. On the other hamd, the A/Mats, at least when addressing the public, always seem to speak of QM dismissively as being hopelessly crazy and mysterious - effectively challenging the reality of their own favoured, much more manageable (until the branch they're sitting on snaps off) reductionist, mechanistic Lego paradigm of pre-QM classical physics. Remember, paradoxes are not ostensibly oxymoronic, repugnant to logic, counter-rational ..... they're just 'counter-intuitive'..... just a 'gut feeling' from time to time that waves and particles gotta be one or the other..... cain't be both at the same time, d-yer see ?.Axel
May 4, 2019
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Bob- You are afraid. You are afraid of trying to support your anti-ID position. And you are afraid of science. Focus on your lame position. And if you ever come up with the science to support it, you will be the first.ET
April 30, 2019
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ba77 @ 82 -
As to a ‘mathematical proof’ that God must be the author of the equations that describe the universe and therefore must ultimately be central to any ‘theory of everything’ we devise, I reference Godel’s incompleteness theorem: As for a falsification criteria, I reference conservation of information theorems.
I'm afraid a a proof that leaves out a lot of detail - you need to more than reference something, you need to use it to demonstrate the theorem you are trying to prove. Can you fill in the gaps for those of us unable to see the leap from Gödel to God?Bob O'H
April 30, 2019
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For ba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_orderhazel
April 29, 2019
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You gave plenty of mathematical evidence of the historicity of Christ's death and resurrection in this YouTube video-clip of yours, BA77, Godel's Incompleteness theorem, notwithstanding. BB wants you to deposit the sun, the moon and the stars in his lap, but he'll have to 'make do' with the known universe qua the Shroud of Turin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=F-TL4QOCiisAxel
April 29, 2019
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Brother Brian, As to a 'mathematical proof' that God must be the author of the equations that describe the universe and therefore must ultimately be central to any 'theory of everything' we devise, I reference Godel's incompleteness theorem: As for a falsification criteria, I reference conservation of information theorems. To falsify my claim all you must do is violate conservation of information theorems and thereby prove that Godel's incompleteness theorem for mathematics is false and thereby prove that God is not the 'miracle' behind the applicability of mathematics to the physical universe (Einstein; Wigner). In short, you must demonstrate that that which is not intelligent can do what only intelligence can do. There you go, a mathematical proof and falsification criteria backing up my claim that God must be behind any coherent theory of everything that we may put forth. What mathematical proof and falsification criteria can Darwinism offer in comparison so as to put itself on equal scientific footing? In fact, to prove Darwinism plausible, you must meet the very same falsification threshold that I just laid out for you trying to prove that God is not the author behind the mathematical equations that describe the universe. i.e. You must violate conservation of information theorems. There you go BB, you can kill two birds with one stone. I will not hold my breath waiting for you to do so.bornagain77
April 29, 2019
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Earth to Brother Brian- Stop worrying about what other people say and focus on your position, which still has nothing for support beyond deceitful humans.ET
April 29, 2019
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BA77
I hold that until a scientific theory has some sort of rigid mathematical basis to experimentally test against, (such as we currently have with our present understanding of atoms), then the theory is ‘not so good’ as a scientific theory to begin with.
BA77
Moreover, the correct solution to the ‘theory of everything’, as I have referenced for you twice now, is found in Christ’s resurrection from the dead:
So, as a logical extension of these two statements I asked:
Can you provide the mathematic proof of this?
Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Something like, "Can you provide me with the rigid mathematical basis to experimentally test your "theory of everything" (i.e., Christ's resurrection) against.Brother Brian
April 29, 2019
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Brother Brian:
However, I do rememember you saying something about evolution not being a valid theory because it doesn’t have a robust mathematical model supporting it (which, of course it does).
Evolution is not a valid theory because it posits untestable claims. And no, it does NOT have a robust mathematical model supporting it. You are lying.ET
April 29, 2019
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As to:
I do remember you saying something about evolution not being a valid theory because it doesn’t have a robust mathematical model supporting it (which, of course it does).
Really??? And apparently it is beneath you to reference this robust mathematical model for Darwin's theory???
Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – Robert J. Marks II – June 12, 2017 Excerpt: “There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/ “For many years I thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have a proof that Darwinian evolution works.” Gregory Chaitin – Proving Darwin 2012 – Highly Respected Mathematician Active Information in Metabiology - Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II - 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 "The formation in geological time of the human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field is as unlikely as the separation of the atmosphere into its components. The complexity of the living things has to be present within the material [from which they are derived] or in the laws [governing their formation]." Gödel - As quoted in H. Wang. Conservation of information, evolution, etc - Sept. 30, 2014 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel’s logical objection to Darwinian evolution: "The formation in geological time of the human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field is as unlikely as the separation of the atmosphere into its components. The complexity of the living things has to be present within the material [from which they are derived] or in the laws [governing their formation]." Gödel - As quoted in H. Wang. “On `computabilism’ and physicalism: Some Problems.” in Nature’s Imagination, J. Cornwall, Ed, pp.161-189, Oxford University Press (1995). Gödel’s argument is that if evolution is unfolding from an initial state by mathematical laws of physics, it cannot generate any information not inherent from the start – and in his view, neither the primaeval environment nor the laws are information-rich enough.,,, More recently this led him (Dembski) to postulate a Law of Conservation of Information, or actually to consolidate the idea, first put forward by Nobel-prizewinner Peter Medawar in the 1980s. Medawar had shown, as others before him, that in mathematical and computational operations, no new information can be created, but new findings are always implicit in the original starting points – laws and axioms.,,, http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2014/09/30/conservation-of-information-evolution-etc/ Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence - June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search -- unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with "natural evolution." ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab's website states, "The principal theme of the lab's research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems." So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski (mathematically) prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can't prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can't derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html What Does "Life's Conservation Law" Actually Say? - Winston Ewert - December 3, 2015 Excerpt: All information must eventually derive from a source external to the universe, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/12/what_does_lifes101331.html
BB then goes on to ask this very simplistic question
So, where is the robust mathematical model of Christ and his resurrection?
That is as nonsensical as asking where is the mathematical model of "Hamlet"? and not only of "Hamlet" but where is the mathematical model of the author of "Hamlet", William Shakespeare himself? Or better yet, as nonsensical as asking where is the mathematical model of Einstein the author of General Relativity? Question for you BB, since you are a reductive materialist who believes in Darwinian evolution, and therefore do not believe in free will and/or in agent causation, who or what wrote "Hamlet", Shakespeare or the laws of physics? and/or who or what wrote the mathematical formulation of Einstein's General Relativity, Einstein or the laws of physics?
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism - Paul Nelson - September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural? ,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. - per ENV Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
And just as we can be certain that both Shakespeare and Einstein were in fact responsible for what they wrote, and just as we can be certain that every book ever written on the face of earth has a author, so to can we be certain that there was an original Author who “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.”, as well we can also be certain that there is an original Author behind the billions of letters of information that are encoded on human DNA:
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ In a TED Talk, (the Question You May Not Ask,,, Where did the information come from?) – November 29, 2017 Excerpt: Sabatini is charming.,,, he deploys some memorable images. He points out that the information to build a human infant, atom by atom, would take up the equivalent of enough thumb drives to fill the Titanic, multiplied by 2,000. Later he wheels out the entire genome, in printed form, of a human being,,,,: [F]or the first time in history, this is the genome of a specific human, printed page-by-page, letter-by-letter: 262,000 pages of information, 450 kilograms.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/in-a-ted-talk-heres-the-question-you-may-not-ask/
And the bible, long before DNA was ever discovered, claimed that life (and the universe) does indeed have an author:
Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
As Eric Metaxas pointed out in his recent talk at the Science and Faith conference, finding such a massive amount of information encoded in every cell of our bodies must really be a bummer for atheists. It is like having tattoos of the name of Jesus printed all over your body. For an atheist, having Jesus tattooed all over your body simply must be embarrassing. Thus, the atheist in order to deny that life has an author, and that the equations of the universe have an author, must also hold that books and/or mathematical equations somehow wrote themselves minus any authors writing them. Simply put, atheist have chosen to embrace sheer insanity rather than ever believing in God. Of supplemental note to the irresolvable 'infinity problem' in mathematics between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (and how the resurrection of Jesus bridges that 'infinite divide" between the two theories):
General relativity, as the following articles show, simply refuses to be mathematically unified with quantum mechanics in any acceptable way. In technical terms, Gravity has yet to be successfully included into a theory of everything since the infinities that crop up in that attempt are not renormalizable as they were in Quantum-Electrodynamics.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bill-nye-should-check-wikipedia/#comment-671692
bornagain77
April 29, 2019
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BA77
That kind of would defeat everything I’m being arguing for thus far would it not BB?
That would assume that I, or anyone, actually reads all of your posts. However, I do rememember you saying something about evolution not being a valid theory because it doesn’t have a robust mathematical model supporting it (which, of course it does). So, where is the robust mathematical model of Christ and his resurrection?Brother Brian
April 28, 2019
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"Can you provide the mathematic proof of this?" Too funny. I argue for I don't know how many posts that there will never be a purely mathematical theory of everything, and the first thing that BB wants is a mathematical proof for Christ's resurrection from the dead providing the correct solution for the theory of everything.. That kind of would defeat everything I'm being arguing for thus far would it not BB? Moreover, better than a mathematical proof, I can provide actual empirical evidence, via the shroud of Turin, that both gravity and Quantum Mechanics were dealt with in Christ's resurrection from the dead.
(February 19, 2019) To support Isabel Piczek’s claim that the Shroud of Turin does indeed reveal a true ‘event horizon’, the following study states that ‘The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image.’,,, Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with, the shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics was dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673178 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673179 Supplemental notes defending the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/viruses-devolve/#comment-674732 To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ resurrection from the dead, the following recent article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.” Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016 Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”. Comment The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology. http://westvirginianews.blogspot.com/2011/12/new-study-claims-shroud-of-turin-is.html As well, seeing is believing Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-TL4QOCiis Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ
I put this evidence out there for the Darwinian atheists, such as BB, hoping that they will be reasonable,,, but who am I kidding, these guys can’t even accept the fact that God created their very own ‘beyond belief’ brain ,,,
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth – November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: …One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor–with both memory-storage and information-processing elements–than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html
,,, so. if Darwinists can’t even accept that their very own ‘beyond belief’ brain was intelligently designed by God, much less will they ever be willing to accept the fact that God raised Christ from the dead so as to provide a propitiation for our sins.
Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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BA77
Moreover, the correct solution to the ‘theory of everything’, as I have referenced for you twice now, is found in Christ’s resurrection from the dead:”
Can you provide the mathematic proof of this? Or does that requirement only apply to theories you don’t agree with? No need to answer. We already know the answer.Brother Brian
April 28, 2019
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"Well, I’m sure that will bring all further research in QM, General Relativity, and their potential unification to a screeching halt." Never claimed that it would. But there certainly are louder and louder voices growing, i.e. (for example Woit and Hossenfelder), saying that all attempts thus far at finding a purely mathematical theory of everything have been a fool's errand. From what I can tell from the trend in empirical evidence, it will only get worse and worse for those who insist on going that route. Whereas 'my route', i.e. that Christianity is literally and empirically true, to put it mildly, has a far more promising future.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Imagine Heaven - (Near Death Experience) Evidence for the Afterlife https://vimeo.com/140585737
bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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ba writes, "Moreover, the correct solution to the ‘theory of everything’, as I have referenced for you twice now, is found in Christ’s resurrection from the dead:" Well, I'm sure that will bring all further research in QM, General Relativity, and their potential unification to a screeching halt. This has been enlightening conversation, but obviously not one where there is room for anything further to be said.hazel
April 28, 2019
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I'm not going to argue with you about your personal opinions as to how you prefer science to operate that have no empirical support. The empirical science is what it is. Take it or leave it. I don't care what you do. Moreover, the correct solution to the 'theory of everything', (which you apparently disingenuously previously claimed that you do not presuppose), as I have referenced for you twice now, is found in Christ's resurrection from the dead: Make it three times now:
Allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. (April 2019) Overturning the Copernican principle (with our two most powerful theories in science) Excerpt: Thus in conclusion, the new interactive graph by Dr. Dembski provides a powerful independent line of evidence, along with several other powerful lines of scientific evidence (from Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity), that overturns the Copernican principle and restores humanity back to centrality in the universe, and even, when putting all those lines of evidence together, brings modern science back, full circle, to Christianity from whence it originated in the first place. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bill-dembski-and-colleagues-create-an-updated-magnifying-the-universe-tool/#comment-675730 Verse: Colossians 1:15-22 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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So you believe that no further mathematical advances are going to be made in QM or the General Theory of Relativity, which includes no mathematics that might tie them together in ways that are now unknown - true? Do you therefore think that scientists that are working in these fields should quit looking further on the grounds that you think no further improvements can be made?hazel
April 28, 2019
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Yep, as far as the math itself is concerned, , prove me wrong with empirical evidence instead of your apriori assumption.bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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ba writes,
Til then all empirical evidence produced thus far supports my claim that the empirical results perfectly match the predictions of the mathematical models of QM and General Relativity, and that we thus have reached ‘platonic perfection’ with those two mathematical models. i.e. As far as empirical science is concerned, no further improvement of those two theories is needed.
I understand that there are aspects of both theories that match empirical evidence to an extremely accurate degree. However, you seem to be saying that because of that the entire theories of both QM and General Relativity are done - that the theories themselves are perfect. Do you really mean that we are not going to improve or add to QM or General Relativity in any way in the future?hazel
April 28, 2019
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"My claim is that both QM and General Relativity are good theories, in the light of the great deal that we know that support them, but that like all scientific theories they are provisional and tentative – that is, subject to change" And you let me know when you have a whiff of a hint that they disagree with empirical observation. Til then all empirical evidence produced thus far supports my claim that the empirical results perfectly match the predictions of the mathematical models of QM and General Relativity, and that we thus have reached 'platonic perfection' with those two mathematical models. i.e. As far as all the empirical evidence we have thus far is concerned, no further improvement of those two theories is needed. Moreover, I remind you that they are now confirmed to almost absurd levels of accuracy (14 or 15 decimal places) undreamt of for previous theories. Whereas your conjecture that the two theories are merely 'provisional and tentative' is based on nothing more than your apriori bias and/or imagination. i.e. You have no empirical warrant for your claim! In other words, I'm being 'scientific' and following the evidence where it leads, and you got nothing except your only personal subjective opinion as to how you prefer science to operate,,, Empirical science could care less about your druthers.bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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Hazel@66, excellent point.Brother Brian
April 28, 2019
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ba writes, "Hazel presupposes that there should be a unification of QM and General Relativity into a single overarching mathematical theory of everything." No, I didn't presuppose that. All I said was that if such a unification were found, then according to your logic, the current theories of QM and general relativity would not have been "good theories", because you claim that good theories don't change. All the rest of the stuff that you wrote is not relevant to your claim that "good theories don't change." My claim is that both QM and General Relativity are good theories, in the light of the great deal that we know that support them, but that like all scientific theories they are provisional and tentative - that is, subject to change - and if and when they do change they will be even better theories.hazel
April 28, 2019
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Likewise, the empirical evidence itself certainly does not hint that there should be such a unification between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics:
Confirming Einstein, scientists find 'spacetime foam' not slowing down photons from faraway gamma-ray burst (Update) - Mar 16, 2015 Excerpt: Albert Einstein formulated the general theory of relativity, one of the theory's basic assumptions: the idea that all light particles, or photons, propagate at exactly the same speed.,, The researchers analyzed data, obtained by NASA's Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, of the arrival times of photons from a distant gamma-ray burst. The data showed that photons traveling for billions of years from the distant burst toward Earth all arrived within a fraction of a second of each other. This finding indicates that the photons all moved at the same speed, even though different photons had different energies. This is one of the best measurements ever of the independence of the speed of light from the energy of the light particles.,,, One of the attempts to reconcile the two theories (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity) is the idea of "space-time foam." According to this concept, on a microscopic scale space is not continuous, and instead it has a foam-like structure. The size of these foam elements is so tiny that it is difficult to imagine and is at present impossible to measure directly. However light particles that are traveling within this foam will be affected by the foamy structure, and this will cause them to propagate at slightly different speeds depending on their energy. The fact that all the photons with different energies arrived with no time delay relative to each other indicates that such a foamy structure, if it exists at all, has a much smaller size than previously expected. "When we began our analysis, we didn't expect to obtain such a precise measurement," said Prof. Tsvi Piran, the Schwartzmann University Chair at the Hebrew University's Racah Institute of Physics and a leader of the research. "This new limit is at the level expected from quantum gravity theories. http://phys.org/news/2015-03-einstein-scientists-spacetime-foam.html The 'WIMP Miracle' Hope For Dark Matter Is Dead - Feb 22, 2019, Excerpt: The models of supersymmetry or extra dimensions that give the right dark matter abundances through the weak interactions are ruled out by these experiments. If there is WIMP dark matter, it must be weaker than the weak interaction permits to comprise 100% of the dark matter.,,, Theorists can always tweak their models, and have done so many times, pushing the anticipated cross-section down and down as null result after null result rolls in. That's the worst kind of science you can do, however: simply shifting the goalposts for no physical reason other than your experimental constraints have become more severe. There is no longer any motivation, other than preferring a conclusion that the data rules out, in doing so.,,, https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/02/22/the-wimp-miracle-is-dead-as-dark-matter-experiments-come-up-empty-again/#3123b5876dbc “string theory, while dazzling, has outrun any conceivable experiment that could verify it” Excerpt: string theory, while dazzling, has outrun any conceivable experiment that could verify it—there’s zero proof that it describes how nature works. https://uncommondescent.com/physics/string-theory-while-dazzling-has-outrun-any-conceivable-experiment-that-could-verify-it/
Thus both mathematics and empirical evidence give us no hint that there should even be just one overarching mathematical theory of everything. So again, “just where does this presupposition of Hazel’s come from?” I hold that the reason that Hazel, and everybody else, automatically presupposes that there should even be just one overarching mathematical theory of everything is because they (we) are operating on hidden theistic presuppositions. As John D Barrow stated “Our monotheistic traditions reinforce the assumption that the universe is at root a unity, that is not governed by different legislation in different places.”
“Our monotheistic traditions reinforce the assumption that the universe is at root a unity, that is not governed by different legislation in different places.” John D. Barrow
Professor Steven Fuller articulates the hidden Theistic presumption, that undergirds the belief that there should even be a single overarching mathematical ‘theory of everything', very well in the following quote;
“So you think of physics in search of a “Grand Unified Theory of Everything”, Why should we even think there is such a thing? Why should we think there is some ultimate level of resolution? Right? It is part, it is a consequence of believing in some kind of design. Right? And there is some sense in which that however multifarious and diverse the phenomena of nature are, they are ultimately unified by the minimal set of laws and principles possible. Insofar as science continues to operate with that assumption, there is a presupposition of design that is motivating the scientific process. Because it would be perfectly easy,, to stop the pursuit of science at much lower levels. You know understand a certain range of phenomena in a way that is appropriate to deal with that phenomena and just stop there and not go any deeper or any farther.”,,, You see, there is a sense in which there is design at the ultimate level, the ultimate teleology you might say, which provides the ultimate closure,,” Professor Steve Fuller discusses intelligent design in Cambridge - Video - quoted at the 17:34 minute mark https://uncommondescent.com/news/in-cambridge-professor-steve-fuller-discusses-why-the-hypothesis-of-intelligent-design-is-not-more-popular-among-scientists-and-others/
Likewise, Father Robert Barron weighs in here:
Stephen Hawking's "God-Haunted" Quest - December 24, 2014 Excerpt: “Why in the world would a scientist blithely assume that there is or is even likely to be one unifying rational form to all things, unless he assumed that there is a singular, overarching intelligence that has placed it there? Why shouldn't the world be chaotic, utterly random, meaningless? Why should one presume that something as orderly and rational as an equation would describe the universe's structure? I would argue that the only finally reasonable ground for that assumption is the belief in an intelligent Creator, who has already thought into the world the very mathematics that the patient scientist discovers.” Robert Barron http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/stephen_hawking092351.html
Thus since neither mathematics or empirical evidence give us any hint that there should even be just one rational form of all things, then atheists, and everybody else working on string theory, whether they are even aware of their hidden Theistic presuppositions or not, in so far as they “blithely assume that there is or is even likely to be one unifying rational form to all things,” are, in reality, instinctually presupposing that God should be behind the single unifying rational order of the universe. Moreover, as was mentioned previously at the end of post 55,
Allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. (April 2019) Overturning the Copernican principle (with our most powerful theories in science) Excerpt: Thus in conclusion, the new interactive graph by Dr. Dembski provides a powerful independent line of evidence, along with several other powerful lines of scientific evidence (from Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity), that overturns the Copernican principle and restores humanity back to centrality in the universe, and even, when putting all those lines of evidence together, brings modern science back, full circle, to Christianity from whence it originated in the first place. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bill-dembski-and-colleagues-create-an-updated-magnifying-the-universe-tool/#comment-675730
Verse: Colossians 1:15-22
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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Hazel states,
I’ll point out that at the current time there is no theory which unites QM and the general theory of relativity and gravity. Therefore, a theory which does unite the two will be a better theory. Thus, according to ba, in that case QM and the general theory of relativity are not good theories now, because they would then have changed, and according to ba good theories don’t change.
Hazel presupposes that there should be a unification of QM and General Relativity into a single overarching mathematical theory of everything. Not only Hazel holds this presupposition, but this presupposition is pervasive throughout the entire scientific community. In fact, it can be forcefully argued that such a hypothetical mathematical unification between QM and General Relativity is the number one goal within science today. But where does her presupposition come from? The mathematics itself certainly does not hint that there should be such a unification. Peter Woit states that string theory’s math is “a gory mess.”
The Admiral of the String Theory Wars - May 7, 2015 After a decade, Peter Woit still thinks string theory is a gory mess. Excerpt: Woit’s major complaint about the theory, then and now, is that it fails to make testable predictions, so it can’t be checked for errors—in other words, that it’s “not even wrong.”,,, Woit’s secondary grievance is aesthetic. He, like many physicists, perceives an intricate beauty in the math underlying successful physical theories like Einstein’s. In contrast, Woit says, string theory’s math is “a gory mess.” http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/the-admiral-of-the-string-theory-wars
Dr Bruce Gordon states that “string theory and its extension, M-theory,, is a mathematical fantasy.”
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: Excerpt: the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Roger Penrose said that “M-theory isn’t even a theory. It’s a collection of ideas, hopes, aspirations.”
'What is referred to as M-theory isn’t even a theory. It’s a collection of ideas, hopes, aspirations. It’s not even a theory and I think the book is a bit misleading in that respect. It gives you the impression that here is this new theory which is going to explain everything. It is nothing of the sort. It is not even a theory and certainly has no observational (evidence),,, I think the book suffers rather more strongly than many (other books). It’s not a uncommon thing in popular descriptions of science to latch onto some idea, particularly things to do with string theory, which have absolutely no support from observations.,,, They are very far from any kind of observational (testability). Yes, they (the ideas of M-theory) are hardly science." – Roger Penrose – former close colleague of Stephen Hawking – in critique of Hawking’s new book ‘The Grand Design’ the exact quote in the following video clip: Roger Penrose Debunks Stephen Hawking's New Book 'The Grand Design' - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_95wZZFr4
In fact, general relativity and quantum theory are formulated in two very different mathematical languages, differential geometry and functional analysis.,,,
Shape from Sound: Toward New Tools for Quantum Gravity - 2013 Excerpt: To unify general relativity and quantum theory is hard in part because they are formulated in two very different mathematical languages, differential geometry and functional analysis.,,, http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v110/i12/e121301
Moreover, there are an infinite number of mathematical theorems that could have described the universe instead of just Quantum Theory and Relativity:
The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: Unlike Gödel’s approach, mine is based on measuring information and showing that some mathematical facts cannot be compressed into a theory because they are too complicated. This new approach suggests that what Gödel discovered was just the tip of the iceberg: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms. http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf
On top of all that, mathematics itself, via Godel, is now shown to be ‘incomplete’. Hawking himself stated that, due to Godel’s incompleteness theorem, “Kurt Gödel halted the achievement of a unifying all-encompassing theory of everything in his theorem.”
"Note that despite the incontestability of Euclid's postulates in mathematics, Gödel's incompleteness theorem (1931), proves that there are limits to what can be ascertained by mathematics. Kurt Gödel halted the achievement of a unifying all-encompassing theory of everything in his theorem that: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove”. Thus, based on the position that an equation cannot prove itself, the constructs are based on assumptions some of which will be unprovable." Cf., Stephen Hawking & Leonard Miodinow, The Grand Design (2010)
Thus mathematics itself certainly does not give us any hint that there should be a single mathematical theory of everything.bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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Well, this has been entertaining. One perspective is that good scientific theories don’t change over time. The other is that good scientific theories change as new evidence is amassed. One perspective is consistent with good scientific process. The other is...well, I don’t want to be accused of name calling.Brother Brian
April 28, 2019
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I'll point out that at the current time there is no theory which unites QM and the general theory of relativity and gravity. Therefore, a theory which does unite the two will be a better theory. Thus, according to ba, in that case QM and the general theory of relativity are not good theories now, because they would then have changed, and according to ba good theories don't change. That doesn't make sense to me. Virtually all, if not all, scientific theories can be refined, at least to some extent, as new evidence comes in and new ideas are developed. Saying that good theories don't change is in fact antithetical to what science is all about. It seems there are good theories now that may become, and in fact are likely to become, better theories as they change in the future.hazel
April 28, 2019
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The trolls Hazel and Ed George claim they have not engaged in logical fallacies. And yet my argument remains untouched. Go figure. Hazel's belief that 'better theories' may come along than relativity and Quantum Mechanics has no empirical warrant thus far. i.e. My argument for 'platonic perfection' being reached in GR and QM stands. She does not like it. I don't care what she (or Ed George or BB or Seversky) likes! Empirical science itself could care less for their likes or dislikes.bornagain77
April 28, 2019
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I don't believe anyone called anyone names. Yes, there are places where we have parts of theories that are very accurate mathematically, but in general your responses were largely irrelevant to the points I was making, did have a Bible quote, and included one of your Youtube videos, so Ed's prediction was accurate.hazel
April 28, 2019
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BA77
If people are calling names ...
Who is calling names? All I have seen is people pointing out predictable, and distracting, behavior. And, if you are honest with yourself, your behavior is very predictable. My only criticism of it, as I think Hazel would agree, is that very few people actually read your comments because of the way you present them. And I say this as a fellow theist.Ed George
April 28, 2019
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