Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Gay marriage and the loss of civility

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage, Professor Jerry Coyne has authored a post in which he offers his thoughts on the ruling. In a telling passage which is remarkable for its myopia, he writes:

To those who oppose gay marriage, I say this: Is it really hurting you? What does an opponent have to lose if two homosexuals get married? I suppose they could say it could lead to the dissolution of society, but that’s clearly not the case.

Is it really hurting us? Yes, and for a very simple reason: from now on, those who oppose the Supreme Court’s decision will be branded as hateful bigots who are morally on a par with members of the Ku Klux Klan, despite the fact that most American blacks say gay rights are not the same as civil rights, and despite the fact that the Reverend Martin Luther King, America’s foremost civil rights activist, described the homosexual lifestyle as a “problem” in need of a “solution” – a “habit” stemming from a series of negative “experiences and circumstances.”

A Canadian commenter named Timocrates explains how bad things are going to get in America, in a response to philosopher Ed Feser’s brilliantly written blog article, Marriage and the Matrix (June 29, 2015):

Well, coming from Canada, let me warn my American friends about what you are soon going to be facing for anything remotely like denial of legitimacy or anything short of outright approval of homosexuality and all sexual deviance.

1. Social ostracism:
– In your workplace, where you are likely to be fired and not hired at all if you are known to have “controversial” views on homosexuality;
– You family. Friends stick out much longer than they will, but even they will become much, much more quiet and reserved and increasingly hesitant to help you.

2. Social madness and increased degeneracy:
– Polite social parties may well include the suggestion, nonchalantly, to consider throwing on some porn for entertainment;
– Men in women’s bathrooms in gyms, and they kick the people who try to intervene or complain about it out of the gym
– Endless sensitivity training in the workplace so everybody knows what they are and are not allowed to say or suggest to ensure a ‘safe and comfortable’ working environment ‘for everybody’

3. School torture
– Kids will begin learning about sex and how two moms and two dads are a normal kind of family as early as 6
– Sex-ed will begin as early as Grade 6, including descriptions of oral sex
– Any child who at any time identifies with any sex will be accommodated, whether bathroom or locker room

And the final stage that is now happening in Canada, the Trannies.

Transgender people will increasingly agitate that society, government, institutions and businesses facilitate their lies. They will agitate that dating sites and services simply portray them as their chosen sex without any warning to normal, unsuspecting users of services.

That last line is arguably the scariest for single people, especially single young men. We all know how a man is likely to respond after finding out she isn’t actually a she at all – and with gender change surgeries now, this may come later.

And here’s an excerpt from a poignant article on Patheos by Rebecca Hamilton, an 18-year member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, titled, Gay Marriage Sets Friend Against Friend, Brother Against Brother (July 3, 2015):

I’m going to share my own experiences in trying to deal with the question of saving relationships in the face of gay marriage and abortion. I don’t have a magic bullet to offer. What I bring instead is a hard reality.

Here’s what I’ve learned in my own life about the question of keeping your gay friends and following Christ: You can’t do it. They won’t let you. And that’s it.

The deepest personal wounds I’ve suffered since I became a Christian have to do with gay friends that I loved and trusted with all my heart. Two of my gay friends turned on me in a sudden, absolute and public way.

One of them, in particular, I loved with all my heart. He was — and is — as dear to me as my own blood. We shared so many good things through the years. I trusted him and cherished him.

I never once tried to change him or argued with him about these differences in our beliefs. In fact, I tried to avoid talking to him about it altogether. When he realized that I did not support gay marriage, he flew into a rage and … well … it was a horrible experience.

Among other things, he accused me of lying to him because I hadn’t been more up front on the issue.
Then, he went on the internet and publicly attacked me.

The other friend turned on me over abortion. I know, gay men and the abortion industry seem to be bizarre allies, but the gay men I’ve known are pro abortion fanatics. In fact, a good many gay men work for Planned Parenthood.

I do not have one encouraging word to share with those of you who want to keep your relationships with gay people and still follow the Church. My experience is that, no matter how you try, you cannot keep your relationships with your gay friends and follow your faith. They will not let you.

Even sadder, my experience is that they do not just end the friendship. They then go out and do everything they can to hurt you.

I can honestly say that I have not retaliated. I have never broken the confidences they shared with me. I have never attacked them. I have never tried to hurt them. And I never will.

Representative Hamilton adds:

I know one homosexual person who has been willing to accept me as an individual and at least be professional friends with me. When I told her I opposed gay marriage, she said, “I would never try to force you to violate your personal morality.”

I was so grateful to her I almost cried.

But she is unique in my experience. And, as I said, we have a professional friendship, not a deep personal friendship.

Finally, in a recent article on RealClearReligion titled, Beware of the Gaystapo (July 6, 2015), Catholic author Mark Judge equates the treatment of Christians by the gay rights movement to a form of emotional abuse:

Christian America is being emotionally abused by the gay rights movement.

Emotional abuse is a sinister human reality, arguably more iniquitous in its slow-drip subtlety than outright physical abuse or political aggression. In emotional abuse a partner … is lured in by love and affection, only to have their spouse or significant other exert more and more psychological and spiritual control, then curdling into abuse. The abuser might start as a loving person with a slight edge of sarcasm, but over time they methodically pick apart the self-esteem of their partner. The occasional cutting quip becomes a steady stream of put-downs. Nothing the abused person can do is enough.

Eventually there is an atmosphere of chaos and unpredictability. Victims often have emotional breakdowns…

In his article, Judge chronicles the events leading up to this abuse:

In the beginning, advocates for gay marriage assured us that they loved America. The country wasn’t perfect, but mostly what gay activists wanted was the ability to express love without violent reprisal. They didn’t want to control the rest of us, or dictate terms or tell us what to believe. No one would lose their job or business because of gay marriage…

For a few years things went well. Gay people got to live more openly. There were more homosexual characters on television and in politics. States were debating gay marriage.

But then something changed. Liberals didn’t just accept civil unions, they demanded gay marriage — or else.

Anyone who didn’t only accept gay marriage but celebrate it was isolated as a hateful bigot. Bullying and gas-lighting of resisters became common. Gay marriage advocates ignored or denied that they had ever argued that no one would lose their job if gay marriage was passed… Like an abuser who refuses to ever acknowledge wrong doing, preferring to turn the tables on the abused, gay marriage advocates now refuse to answer the most simple questions. To ask “What is marriage?” is to be emotionally blackmailed (shame!), isolated (go back to the 1950s!) and bullied (damn right, you’ll lose your business).

Judge’s last question, “What is marriage?” gets right to the heart of the matter. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court majority, in their recent ruling (Obergefell vs. Hodges), nowhere attempted to provide a clear definition of the term “marriage.” Instead, we were told that the meaning of marriage has evolved over time, despite documents cited by dissenting Chief Justice John Roberts, showing that the term “marriage” has been understood for centuries to mean: the lifelong union of a man and a woman.

Much play has been made in the media of Elena Kagan’s facile argument that if marriage were really about procreation, as traditionalists supposedly hold, then there should be laws on the books prohibiting elderly couples from typing the knot, as there is no chance that they will procreate. But the argument overlooks two very important points.

First, what defines marriage is not procreation , but its essentially monogamous character: it is a union of one man and one woman, for life. (There have of course been societies which tolerated polygamy, but the practice invariably results in the exploitation of women. What’s more, even in societies where the practice is allowed, it is relatively uncommon: the vast majority of men have one wife.) Now, there are heterosexual couples who have what they call “open marriages,” these are relatively uncommon, and even today in America, 90% of people still regard adultery as morally wrong. However, the great majority of gay “marriages” are not sexually monogamous: they are open relationships. And even if there are some gay couples practicing monogamy, I know of no gay couple who are willing to declare that open relationships between gays (or straight people, for that matter) are not real marriages. For this reason alone, then, a strong case can be made on legal grounds for refusing to recognize gay marriage: doing so would inevitably force people to publicly sanction relationships in which sexual monogamy is no longer even recognized as an ideal. That would in turn mean that schoolchildren are no longer taught that married people should be faithful to one another until death do them part.

Second, even if it is not the case that every marriage is potentially procreative, it is certainly true that the institution of marriage would not exist, were it not for the fact that humans procreate sexually. In a hypothetical world where intelligent life-forms reproduced asexually, there would be no marriage, since there would be no need for it. Why, then, do we allow elderly couples to wed? Simple enough: because the bond between them is of the same sort as that existing between couples who wed when they were young, had children, and have now grown old. In both cases, the couples in question physically express their love in exactly the same way, and under the same conditions: they promise to be faithful to each other until death do them part. Gay marriage does not even get a foot in the door here: the physical expression of their love is quite different, and there is usually no intention to remain sexually monogamous.

In his recent post, Professor Coyne argues that people who oppose gay marriage must do so because they regard it as un-Biblical and/or unnatural. But the argument I put forward in the foregoing paragraphs made no mention of the Bible or of natural law. All it assumed was that marriage is essentially monogamous – a sentiment still upheld by the vast majority of Americans.

But I can safely bet that gay rights advocates in America will make no attempt to respond to arguments like the one I have put forward above, in civil terms. Ridicule, scorn and abuse are weapons which suit their cause better, and no attempt must be spared to make their opponents look absurd. If Professor Coyne wants to know how the legalization of gay marriage has hurt ordinary people who oppose it, I can sum it up in one sentence: thoughtful public discussions of the pros and cons of gay marriage will no longer be possible, because one side has been demonized.

What do readers think?

Comments
Z
Was there an answer in there somewhere? Do you prefer humans over beetles?
I'm sorry, I don't understand the questions. What is it that you would like me to explain to you?Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:37 AM
6
06
37
AM
PDT
"There’s no scientific reason to prefer humans over beetles." Are you suggesting there is some other kind of reason to prefer humans over beetles? What is it? Andrewasauber
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Humans are a particular arrangement of chemicals. So are bugs, so is lettuce. Was there an answer in there somewhere? Do you prefer humans over beetles?Zachriel
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
asauber: Problem is, “fond” isn’t scientific. It’s poetry. Ah, you're too kind. asauber: So much for Zachriel pretending to be scientific. There's no scientific reason to prefer humans over beetles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yzY-HUvavUZachriel
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:24 AM
6
06
24
AM
PDT
Zach
harry: Would any of you agree that it is always wrong to take the life of an innocent human being who is in no way a threat to others? Zach: Have you ever squashed a bug? Do you ever eat living organisms, such as fresh lettuce?
I admire your openness and consistency. It's wrong to kill if you're fond of them, but otherwise, it's like squashing a bug or killing any other organism. Humans are a particular arrangement of chemicals. So are bugs, so is lettuce.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
"we’re rather fond of" Problem is, "fond" isn't scientific. It's poetry. So much for Zachriel pretending to be scientific. Andrewasauber
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
06:15 AM
6
06
15
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: With that, it’s ok to kill anything you don’t like. Have you ever tended a garden? Have you ever squashed a bug? Do you ever eat living organisms, such as fresh lettuce?Zachriel
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
05:54 AM
5
05
54
AM
PDT
Z
As we’ve said before, we’re rather fond of the hominid creatures.
It's wrong to kill them because you're fond of them. With that, it's ok to kill anything you don't like.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
05:40 AM
5
05
40
AM
PDT
harry: Would any of you agree that it is always wrong to take the life of an innocent human being who is in no way a threat to others? As we've said before, we're rather fond of the hominid creatures. Call it a peccadillo if you like.Zachriel
July 14, 2015
July
07
Jul
14
14
2015
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
Zachriel,
As we said ...
How many of you are there? Would any of you agree that it is always wrong to take the life of an innocent human being who is in no way a threat to others?harry
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
07:03 PM
7
07
03
PM
PDT
Zachriel
StephenB: In this view, breaking a promise is the same adultery. No. Adultery is a lie that is at the core of the marriage contract. However, only the parties to the contract can take action, usually be ending the contract. StephenB: Should the state make it illegal for one spouse to tell any sort of lie to the other? Lying to your spouse is not a criminal offense in most societies. It’s a civil matter, and only a party to the contract can take action, usually by ending the contract. StephenB: It’s the same harm as caused by pornography. It’s morally offensive to those who oppose it and believed by them to be harmful to society. Lots of things offend people. That doesn’t mean you have a valid justification to enforce your views on others. In the U.S., the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees equal protection before the law, even if it offends you. StephenB: There is a trust that the state will uphold moral norms. No. In the U.S., the state is limited by a constitution, which includes a provision for the equal protection before the law, even if it offends you. Most other modern countries have similar provisions.
I am not the author of these statements. They may have come from Silver Asiatic.StephenB
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
04:23 PM
4
04
23
PM
PDT
Eugen: If I disagreed with it Zachriel would say don’t execute political dissident. Freedom of expression, including political dissent, is a fundamental freedom. Under the Fourteenth Amendment, the U.S. government does not have to power to extend benefits to heterosexual couples that are not also available to homosexual couples. Meanwhile, you have every right to rail against gay marriage, just like you have every right to rail against interracial marriage, or marriage in general.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
StephenB: In this view, breaking a promise is the same adultery. No. Adultery is a lie that is at the core of the marriage contract. However, only the parties to the contract can take action, usually be ending the contract. StephenB: Should the state make it illegal for one spouse to tell any sort of lie to the other? Lying to your spouse is not a criminal offense in most societies. It's a civil matter, and only a party to the contract can take action, usually by ending the contract. StephenB: It’s the same harm as caused by pornography. It’s morally offensive to those who oppose it and believed by them to be harmful to society. Lots of things offend people. That doesn't mean you have a valid justification to enforce your views on others. In the U.S., the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees equal protection before the law, even if it offends you. StephenB: There is a trust that the state will uphold moral norms. No. In the U.S., the state is limited by a constitution, which includes a provision for the equal protection before the law, even if it offends you. Most other modern countries have similar provisions.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Eugen - thanks and I'm grateful you're here as a witness to life under Communism. To a large extent, younger generations in the US have little awareness of what it was like. That story has has generally been covered-up. People know Nazi's and Hitler - but not the Soviets and Stalin. As you point out, whatever was for the good of the party was legal. The ends justified any means. Communist China redefined what a family is also, believing for a time that children belong to the state. If you don't like it, don't have children.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
01:36 PM
1
01
36
PM
PDT
When I lived In Communism executing political dissidents was legal. If I disagreed with it Zachriel would say don't execute political dissident. This is a level of reason and logic we are facing. I applaud your patience Stephen, Silver Asiatic, Harry and others.Eugen
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
Z
Marriage is a contract, a promise, between two people.
In this view, breaking a promise is the same adultery. Should the state make it illegal for one spouse to tell any sort of lie to the other?
The state is largely tolerant of adultery.
Therefore adultery is not an integral component of the marriage contract.
You haven’t pointed to any harm due to gay or interracial marriage.
It's the same harm as caused by pornography. It's morally offensive to those who oppose it and believed by them to be harmful to society.
trust has been violated when two people of different races or the same sex get married
There is a trust that the state will uphold moral norms. When the state approved gay marriage, it was a betrayal of trust.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Which explains why betrayal of trust alone is not a reliable standard one can use to condemn adultery. Marriage is a contract, a promise, between two people. Have no idea what this has to do with your claim that a trust has been violated when two people of different races or the same sex get married. Silver Asiatic: If I don’t get gay married, then unjustified harms to those who are betrayed by the state’s approval of it is ok with you. You haven't pointed to any harm. Silver Asiatic: If I don’t own slaves, then unjustified harms to those betrayed by the state’s approval of slavery would be ok also. The harm is to the slave. You haven't pointed to any harm due to gay or interracial marriage. Silver Asiatic: The state, on that basis, should be as tolerant of adultery as gay marriage. The state is largely tolerant of adultery. Legal claims are usually civil, having to do with breach of contract.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
12:39 PM
12
12
39
PM
PDT
Zach
Miscegenation is a betrayal of trust for those who understand marriage is between one man and one woman of the same race.
Which explains why betrayal of trust alone is not a reliable standard one can use to condemn adultery.
Silver Asiatic: So, it leads to unjustified harms to those who are betrayed by the state’s approval of it. Don’t get gay married, then.
If I don't get gay married, then unjustified harms to those who are betrayed by the state's approval of it is ok with you. If I don't own slaves, then unjustified harms to those betrayed by the state's approval of slavery would be ok also. The topic was adultery. You don't like it, then don't do it. The state, on that basis, should be as tolerant of adultery as gay marriage.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Gay marriage is a betrayal of trust – for those who understand marriage as one-man one-woman. Miscegenation is a betrayal of trust for those who understand marriage is between one man and one woman of the same race. Silver Asiatic: So, it leads to unjustified harms to those who are betrayed by the state’s approval of it. Don't get gay married, then.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
10:55 AM
10
10
55
AM
PDT
sean
this statement reinforces my claim that the “natural moral law” is emphatically religious. I see that @211 StephenB tries to narrow this, but one is left to wonder: Is StephenB correct? Or is harry? I’ve been around long enough to know that harry’s position is the typical one.
–sean samis I don't think harry and I are disagreeing. His point is that the moral law as revealed in Scripture and the natural moral law as understood through reason are mutually reinforcing. I agree. However, the point I have been making is about the "natural" moral law. Ontologically, there is only one possible source for the Natural Moral Law and that would be the Lawgiver, which is God. That is what I understand harry to be saying. I have made the same point on this thread. However, the natural moral law, as a law, is no more religious than any other natural law. Would you say that the law of gravity or the law of conservation of energy are “emphatically religious” simply because they require a law-giver to exist? If so, then you are using the word “religious” in a rather novel way. Epistemologically, there are two ways one can learn about the Natural Moral Law, through Divine revelation, accessible by faith, and through Natural revelation, accessible by reason. My emphasis has been on the latter. So, the law itself, though it has a supernatural source, is not religious. That is why it is defined in non-religious terms: 1. a body of unchanging moral principles regarded as a basis for all human conduct. 2.an observable law relating to natural phenomena. "the natural laws of perspective" I don’t think harry would disagree, but if he does, I welcome his comments. Meanwhile, I am still waiting for your answer: If the fourteenth makes it constitutional to change the meaning of marriage as one man/one woman on the grounds that all persons have that right, why would it not also apply to fathers and daughters or, for that matter, fathers and sons?StephenB
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
sean 232
…materialism gives us nothing. There is simply no standard at all to reference. Sure there is: The Truth about Reason, Nature, History, and the Human Condition.
Where in the material cosmos is "truth"? Where also is "the human condition"? How, biologically can we find a human condition and where, scientifically does this difference appear (between humans and chimps, for example)? Where, materially, can such distinctions be made?
Because there’s no rational basis in reason, nature, history, or the human condition for condemning homosexuality.
The condemnation of homosexuality exists. Therefore, material elements & evolution produced it (according to those points of view). There is no true or false, good or bad in matter. Nothing acts for a purpose. Water exists. Trees exist. Stones exist. Planets exist. Condemnation of homosexuality exists. There is no basis in materialism to claim any of those things as better than another.
The problem with moral goals is that everyone has their own idea of what that is; so a rational morality merely keeps persons from harming others.
This doesn't answer the problem though. In materialism, there is no goal at all. In theism there are goals for moral improvement. It's not enough just to do no harm. A person must grow, morally, to become more like God. To have morality without goals is irrational.
Problem is: how do I know what God wants?
Many people offer valuable and positive answers to your question. You can, indeed, find what God wants yourself. Seeking the truth is a good step. Recognizing God as the source of goodness is excellent also. When we seek what God wants, he will show us.
Unless God actually does tell me (which has never happened) I would have to let mere humans tell me; I’d have to trust people playing God. That I cannot do.
First - it hasn't happened yet. With patience, you can indeed discover that God will guide you. But even still, it's good to be open to what other people have to say about God. You're right - it does take trust. But why should we trust ourselves alone? Do we know everything there is about God? We trust experts in other fields where we can't evaluate results, even in science. Why not trust people who have been seeking God for a long time, and who show goodness in their spiritual life? These can be people alive today, or saints of the past.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
09:15 AM
9
09
15
AM
PDT
sean s 232
And just who gives these self-appointed “thinkers” the right to tell the rest of us what is good or bad? Who died and left them Kings?
In the case of the US government, those who accepted the natural law became the authorities that built the government. They had the right to establish a constitution based on the natural law itself - so their authority in establishing laws came from that. They cited natural law as the basis for human rights also. As for those who do not accept that there are any moral laws inherent in human nature, they have really forfeited their rights to debate this. As I said above, those who deny that the natural law exists, cannot at the same time argue for a certain interpretation of it.
The framers of the American government accepted the natural law and used it as the foundation of moral arguments. Perhaps, but they did not make it an enforceable law.
The natural moral law is a basis for understanding all specific laws that follow from it.
Is adultery ok? No. It is a betrayal of trust, and demonstrates a broken trust; both leading to unjustified harms to the adulterer’s spouse.
Gay marriage is a betrayal of trust - for those who understand marriage as one-man one-woman. So, it leads to unjustified harms to those who are betrayed by the state's approval of it.
What is it about the sexual act that forms the basis of the promise or contract [violated by adultery]? The promise of fidelity.
Why is fidelity necessary, and why is fidelity measured by sexual conduct and not, instead, by other things?
The State established those terms as a recognition of how human’s respond to these betrayals.
Many humans respond to gay marriage as a betrayal of the meaning of marriage.
Could the State redefine adultery? Sure; but to what end?
This would mean that adultery only has meaning in terms of how the state defines it. The state could therefore proclaim that adultery does not exist. Since you equate adultery to to infidelity, by defining adultery as a non-existent act, we would also eliminate all infidelity.Silver Asiatic
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PDT
harry: So, you don’t believe there is anything that is intrinsically immoral. As we said, the problem is with your use of the term "intrinsically". The person who thinks keeping slaves is better for them than allowing them to live a savage existence is moral in their own eyes. The person who thinks enslaving someone is a just punishment is moral in their own eyes. They have the same intrinsic traits of humans generally, as do their slaves.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
06:56 AM
6
06
56
AM
PDT
Zachriel, So, you don't believe there is anything that is intrinsically immoral. Thanks for clearing that up.harry
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
06:41 AM
6
06
41
AM
PDT
sean samis @232
Yet the natural law and the Scriptures have the same Author, so either one properly understood supports the other. It is better to understand the Scriptures, though, I am sure you will agree, since that will give one an understanding of the natural law … --harry ... this statement reinforces my claim that the “natural moral law” is emphatically religious. I see that @211 StephenB tries to narrow this, but one is left to wonder: Is StephenB correct? Or is harry? I’ve been around long enough to know that harry’s position is the typical one. --sean samis
If there is a good God Who created humanity and intended for us to behave in a manner that reflected His goodness, then He would build a conscience into us. He did. We all know we have one. We have all felt guilty at one time or another. Yes, there is such a thing as feeling guilty about that which there is really no reason to feel guilty. Many of us, upon realizing that, have experienced a happy moment of enlightenment. We have also experienced guilt when we were really guilty of doing what was wrong. Real, deserved experience of guilt can be a terrible thing. Our conscience is natural. It was built into our very nature by God. It continually becomes more informed as our parents raise us, so feeling guilty about that which there is no reason to feel guilty happens less often. Unless we are sociopaths who never feel guilty about anything, we eventually get to a point as adults where our natural conscience is a very reliable guide. For mankind's consciences to work as God intended, they had to become correctly informed. And how did that come about in the first place? Well, after the Fall, when we lost the preternatural privileges of bodily immortality and perfect control of appetite, there was in us a weakness of will and disorderly inclinations. We fell hard into darkness. The gift of rationality remained, so something like this might have happened: A primitive man felt violated when his neighbor took his goat without asking. He concluded that it was wrong for his neighbor to take his goat. That is the easy part of learning about natural law morality. He also should have concluded -- this is the difficult part -- that it is wrong for him to take his neighbors' animals. Natural law morality applies to humanity because we, unlike other creatures, possess rationality. Now our primitive man didn't quite get it right. He snuck over to his neighbor's place in the middle of the night, slit his neighbor's throat, and took his goat back home -- along with all of his dead neighbor's possessions and his wife and kids. Well, his dead neighbor's brother, who lived in another village, didn't like that at all. He incited the men in his village to attack his late brother's village and kill all the men in it, and take all their possessions, wives and children for their own. Only they didn't kill all the men ... one of them got away and incited everybody in his uncle's village to retaliate ... and on and on it went for years. Then one of the survivors of all of that, who knew how it all started, using the rationality God gave humanity, correctly suggested that it should be officially declared that it is wrong to take your neighbor's goat or anything else of his, and that everybody must teach their children that. People were intrigued by such a notion, and, thinking of other actions that must have been "wrong" (what a concept!) due to their tragic consequences, suggested that killing other people without a good reason must be wrong, as was having relations with your neighbors wife -- that one often ended tragically. The moral of this much too simplistic story is that there is natural law morality because humanity has rationality and is expected to use it. (It is sometimes difficult to explain the obvious.) We know when we feel victimized and should learn from that not to do those things to others. We have learned that certain things always have terrible consequences and we should know that to do those things is wrong. God, in His interactions with humanity recorded in the Old Testament, affirmed the natural law that mankind should have already figured out, a law which makes clear: Don't kill your neighbor, or take his stuff, or have relations with his wife, or his animals, or him. In addition to that, God revealed to us that which we wouldn't have figured out on our own: Don't even think think about having relations with your neighbor's wife. Don't even let yourself wish for your neighbor's goods. And eventually, through His Son, He called us to become a perfect reflection of His goodness (Mt 5:48): Love your enemies. Do good to those who do you harm. (We definitely would never have come up with those on our own.) As I said, the natural law and the Scriptures have the same Author, so either one properly understood supports the other. But that doesn't make the natural moral law "emphatically religious." The natural moral law is binding upon us because of our rationality, not our religiosity. As for the genuine, deserved guilt I mentioned at the beginning of these comments: It can be washed away completely, leaving us as innocent as a baby. That is the good news found in the Scriptures.harry
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
06:35 AM
6
06
35
AM
PDT
harry: Do YOU, personally, believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral? The word "intrinsically" refers to the "essential nature of something", so your phrase mixes objective and subjective elements. For instance, objectively, humans generally prefer freedom to being enslaved, while, subjectively, we're rather fond of humans; hence we are against slavery. However, keep in mind, that not everyone has held our view. Some slave owners have considered slavery a necessary evil, better than the alternative of living a savage existence. Some didn't consider it more negative than any other social status, such as patrician or merchant, just lower. Some considered it just punishment for resisting empire. And so on.Zachriel
July 13, 2015
July
07
Jul
13
13
2015
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
Zachriel,
harry: Do you believe there is a universally applicable ethical system that consists, at a minimum, of the principle of non-malevolence towards others, the meaning of “malevolence” being understood by everyone to be “that which I wouldn’t want done to me.”? Zachriel: No. ... harry: Do you believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral? Zachriel: Humans certainly do have characteristics that, while perhaps not universal, are typical of the species, including a moral sense. However, humans vary considerably on the specifics of their morality.
Do YOU, personally, believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral? If so, why is that behavior immoral? It is immoral based on it being a violation of what principle? If you do not believe there is any such thing, well ... that explains a lot about where you are coming from.harry
July 12, 2015
July
07
Jul
12
12
2015
10:29 PM
10
10
29
PM
PDT
sean
so—Faith must be reasonable before it can be reasonable?
I didn't say that. You should learn how to read. Meanwhile, I am still waiting for you to tell me if a marriage between a man and his 20 year old daughter is a constitutional right. You contend that gay marriage is a constitutional right on the grounds that no State may deprive any person equal protection of the laws. Your standard is clear. So, does that law apply to fathers and daughters marrying as well as gays marrying. If not, why not?StephenB
July 12, 2015
July
07
Jul
12
12
2015
05:01 PM
5
05
01
PM
PDT
StephenB: You are not capable of rational thought. Sure we are. You just haven't made a coherent argument. harry: Do you believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral? intrinsic, belonging to the essential nature of a thing. Humans certainly do have characteristics that, while perhaps not universal, are typical of the species, including a moral sense. However, humans vary considerably on the specifics of their morality.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
July
07
Jul
12
12
2015
04:39 PM
4
04
39
PM
PDT
A reply to several comments. Sorry for the length. StephenB @178:
You didn’t answer.
Sure I did. Twice now.
The ability to consent is not an issue in my examples.
But it is an issue in the question.
The mother or father can be 40 and the child can be 20.
Undue influence can be exerted by someone of any age on someone of any age.
I ask again, is it a constitutionally protected right for a man to marry his mother, or his father, or his son (if of age) or his daughter (if of age)? If not, why not?
I’ve answered this. Not every question has a yes-no answer; in the law an “it depends” answer is quite expected, and I’ve told you on what I think it depends.
Courts have ruled that slavery is moral and courts have ruled that slavery is immoral;...
And most all these Courts believed they were implementing a moral system approved by their God. Clearly that offers no advantage.
Obviously, courts cannot always be trusted to tell us which laws are just and which ones are not. ... Some other standard must be used.
If we don’t rely on the Courts, who do you propose we use?
You have no other standard.
But I do have one that can work. What alternative do you propose?
You are assuming a meaning of “establishment of religion” that is far different from what was intended by the founders. Do you know what that meaning was? (Hint: It has to do with sectarian differences in religious beliefs.)
Nope. You have it wrong.
It IS a law and it identifies itself as a law.
The Declaration of Independence is not a law any court can enforce, and never so identifies itself. It refers to laws, but is not a law.
I didn’t give you logic, I gave you a fact. To state a fact is not to perform a syllogism.
Every statement of fact is an implicit syllogism. Whenever you even imply that one fact implies another, that is an implicit syllogism. You wrote that “... natural law is not “thoroughly religious” Otherwise Aristotle would not have taught it as an objective fact independent of religion.” In otherwords: Aristotle taught it as objective fact, therefore even later versions of it are objective fact.” That is of course, false. Aristotle thought many things that later persons disagreed with.
If you don’t understand the difference between Natural law, which is apprehended by reason, and Divine Law, which is said to be supernaturally revealed, I cannot help you.
I do understand the difference. As soon as you invoke a deity though, you invoke a religiously embedded “natural law”.
To apprehend the existence of the Natural law through reason is not to assume a deity. The deity can be inferred only after the law is apprehended,...
Unfortunately, one cannot “apprehend the existence of a deity” through reason, not even through the “apprehension” of a so-called “natural law”. Such an “apprehension” of a deity is at best pure opinion; not a reasoned fact.
The point is that you can’t assume something and infer it at the same time. Please try to grasp that point.
I do. However you rationalize your belief in a deity (by assumption or inference), it is by definition a religious belief; an opinion, not a fact.
...it is clear that you have no idea where rights come from and you have no idea how they could be (or why they should be) inalienable.
Sure I do; I’ve stated it to you repeatedly. In the light of what I’ve stated, YOU HAVE NEVER ASKED ME IF RIGHTS ARE INALIENABLE! You have always couched that question on an assumption which I have denied. In spite of two answers, you STILL HAVE NOT ASKED THE QUESTION! But even though you cannot bring yourself to ask it, I’ll volunteer an answer. Are rights inalienable? Yes, unless there is a legitimate, rational purpose that requires it (no right is absolute). Why? Because if they can be given away, they can be taken away. If they can be taken away without justification, they cannot be protected; but rights are by definition something that MUST BE PROTECTED. StephenB @183 to REC:
Why do you respond to my questions with another question?:
Why do you object? There’s nothing wrong with answering with yet another question. StephenB @185:
...the natural moral law is self evidently true, as stated in the Declaration of Independence,...
The Declaration ASSERTS the self-evidence of certain things, but it is not evidence that the assertion is correct. BTW, the phrase “natural moral law” does not exist in the Declaration, neither does the phrase “natural law”. The closest you can get is the “Laws of Nature” which is ambiguous (the laws of thermodynamics are “laws of nature” but not part of the “natural law” much less part of any “natural moral laws”
I can know that same natural moral law through the application of my reason.
Many assert this, none can prove it.
All along, I have explained all my answers in terms of that same natural moral and the inherent dignity of the human person. A moral act is one that is consistent with human nature and human dignity; an immoral act is one that is not. Thus, I can, in principle, know right from wrong.
As REC followed up with, “...consistent with human nature and human dignity...” is too vague to be actionable. Better to say that an immoral act is one that causes an unjustified harm, and leave it at that.
Do you know that chattel slavery is wrong? Do you know that it is wrong for a court to uphold it?
[a] and [a]. StephenB @188:
It took centuries for natural law thinkers to figure out the boundaries of human freedom.
And just who gave them the authority to decide where our rights end? Who died and left them King?
Progress is possible because the unchanging standard of human dignity and human nature allow the unchanging principles to remain firm even as their application is always changing. Their knowledge of objective morality becomes deeper.
And who gave them this “standard”? And on whose authority do they declare it “unchanging” (which means PERFECT and INFALLIBLE)?
Consider, for example, the difference between chattel slavery at one extreme, and indentured servitude at the other extreme. It was these same natural law thinkers that provided the categories.
If indentured servitude is moral, then moral rights are NOT inalienable. Indentured servitude is immoral and if these thinkers of yours did not understand that, they were quite wrong.
How do we know, for example, that sex slavery or child slavery is far worse than “bonded labor?” It is because reason and the natural moral law as understood in the context of human dignity tell us so.
Any contract in which one party cannot walk away from the agreement (with reasonable penalty) is necessarily immoral. This right has been recognized in contract law since before the Constitution. But an indentured servant did not have that right.
...we can know that debt labor, for example, can be morally justified.
Debt labor cannot be morally justified without stringently enforced protections for the debtor’s rights and safety. That was not the case.
If we don’t have the natural moral law, we cannot make moral calculations.
Sure we can.
We cannot place the categories in rank order unless we have an unchanging standard with which to rank them.
Sure we can. We need a standard, but it need not be “unchanging” because as we learn, we need to change with our new knowledge. Reason from nature, history, and facts of life perfectly capable of providing a standard for moral calculus.
Yes, some natural law claimants have been wrong about chattel slavery at different times in history if they didn’t really understand natural law or they mistakenly conflated it Divine Law, or if they injected their own biases and prejudices into their biblical theology.
You just gutted your own argument. If use of your “natural moral law” does not guarantee correct decisions, then it is not a reliable guide. We need to look at reason from nature, history, and truth, and jettison this normative “natural moral law” as unreliable.
It is also likely that some jurists or legislators were lying bigots who wanted to use the name of God to justify and vent their outrage, ...
If so, then the “natural moral law” then it has no special status among moral standards and tools. And if misusing the “natural moral law” is the same as “using the name of God” to justify evil ends, then you have just drawn an equivalence between the “natural moral law” and a “religious law”.
...it is this ongoing application of reason that continues to make the moral image sharper and sharper. The more we think about it, the closer we get to the truth...
True enough, but that means this “unchanging” “natural moral law” is eventually obsolesced by facts from nature. Why use it at all, just reason from nature, history, truth.
So it is with homosexuality. ... Natural law gets it right: Hate the sin; love the sinner.
Nature does not conclude that homosexuality is a sin, or even a defect. It is just part of the natural range of variation within nature. Even other species exhibit it.
...my questions for sean and REC persist. Will they try to buy more time by looking for loopholes in what I just wrote, or will they engage me in dialogue?
Above is my dialog. Engage away. harry @194:
Even those who don’t believe every human being has been endowed with basic rights by their Creator, should be able to see that either every human being possesses certain intrinsic rights, or none of us do. “Human” is all any of us are.
True. One does not need to believe in any deity to know these things.
To “legally” trample on the rights of any segment of humanity destroys the rights of all humanity. One might not always remain among those who exercise such “legal” rights. One might end up among a segment of humanity whose rights may be “legally” trampled upon by others.
True. This idea is a basis for any rational moral system and needs no deity to command it.
To defend the intrinsic rights of any and every human being is to defend one’s self.
Agreed.
I think this is because serious Christians are led to look at the plight of others, to love their neighbor as themselves, to see in the alleviation of the injustice suffered by others an opportunity to respond to the love Christ showed them in accepting horrific suffering for their sake.
I wish I could agree. I used to but not for some time now. harry @197:
All the Southern Baptists I know are staunch defenders of traditional morality and Biblical values, and would not even think of defending slavery with the Bible.
But now can they get past their errors and defend the rights of gays, lesbians, and transgendered persons?
Unlike Christians, though, atheists have nothing within to guide them out of their errors.
Sure they do (I am not an atheist). Reason from nature, history, and Truth.
Apparently they are not even willing to believe of each and every human being: “You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.”
I have never met an atheist who’d disagree with that. I have met Christians who disagree that applies to everyone. Silver Asiatic @200:
Natural Las thinkers have worked out the meaning and application of the natural moral law with new circumstances as they arise. This is work done by those who accept the natural law and who uncover its meaning over time. As it stands, homosexual marriage has not been viewed by any natural law thinkers as consistent with moral norms.
But given that it takes time for the “thinkers” to catch up with the facts, their failure to appreciate homosexuality is without meaning. And just who gives these self-appointed “thinkers” the right to tell the rest of us what is good or bad? Who died and left them Kings?
The framers of the American government accepted the natural law and used it as the foundation of moral arguments.
Perhaps, but they did not make it an enforceable law. StephenB @201:
Their mistake was to ignore reason, read their cultural biases and prejudices into the Scriptures, and then dump the resultant theology into their natural law model.
Exactly the same error they are making today vis-à-vis same-sex marriage.
...Natural Law is not written down, it is apprehended by reason.
... and that renders it useless because anyone can claim anything is “part of Natural Law”.
We grow in our knowledge of the natural moral law by shaping our morality to fit the facts about our human nature.
Exactly true. And gays, lesbians, and transgendered persons are part of the normal facts of human nature. StephenB @203:
I mean it the way everyone understands it who knows what it is.
In other words: those who agree with you. Anyone who disagrees with you is simply dismissed as not understanding the “natural law”. StephenB @206:
seversky
You can find a long list of Biblical prescriptions and prohibitions which today’s Christians quite happily ignore because they now “know” better.
Interesting strategy
Interesting FACT.
It seems like a plan that was calculated to steer the subject away from the natural moral law.
It goes to the very heart of the problem. Being unwritten and predicated on the belief in a deity, the “natural moral law” is unusable by actually-rational persons. harry @208:
Yet the natural law and the Scriptures have the same Author, so either one properly understood supports the other. It is better to understand the Scriptures, though, I am sure you will agree, since that will give one an understanding of the natural law, ...
I know that harry does not speak for StephenB, but this statement reinforces my claim that the “natural moral law” is emphatically religious. I see that @211 StephenB tries to narrow this, but one is left to wonder: Is StephenB correct? Or is harry? I’ve been around long enough to know that harry’s position is the typical one.
Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the Scriptures will be excused for that, but will not be excused for not heeding the natural law written in their hearts: ...
Part of the reason I had not participated in this conversation for a few days is that I was engaged with kairosfocus on a related topic; and this thing about the truth being written on our hearts came up there. KairosFocus put the kibosh on my response, but it applies here. On that thread, someone commented that “...when God wants to make sure we get some message, He will write it on our hearts. He will intertwine it in our human nature.Let’s take that as a given for a moment. If true, that would mean that homosexuality or being transgendered would be gifts of God and unreproachable. Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender persons all report that their natures are entwined into their very beings. Therefore, these must be gifts from God. One could reply that these persons have misunderstood what God wrote on their hearts or entwined in their natures, but that would be fatal your position. You would be saying that, “when God wants to make sure we get some message, He will write it on our hearts or He will intertwine it in our human nature,” but we cannot trust our own sense of those gifts. You’d be telling us we need to turn to other fallible humans to tell us what God wrote or entwined; these mere humans would be needed to interpret God’s intent for us. Again, we’d be left with no way to know what God intends except to trust the untrustworthy claims of other fallible humans. Silver Asiatic @210:
Is adultery ok?
No. It is a betrayal of trust, and demonstrates a broken trust; both leading to unjustified harms to the adulterer’s spouse.
...materialism gives us nothing. There is simply no standard at all to reference.
Sure there is: The Truth about Reason, Nature, History, and the Human Condition.
All that meant was, as I repeated, there’s no rational basis to accept or condemn homosexuality in materialism.
Because there’s no rational basis in reason, nature, history, or the human condition for condemning homosexuality.
There is no purpose or goal in materialism so no way to measure whether homosexuality (or adultery for that matter) is moving towards or away from a moral goal for any persons involved.
The problem with moral goals is that everyone has their own idea of what that is; so a rational morality merely keeps persons from harming others.
It’s the nature of theism, with a personal God, that makes moral goodness and the effort for individuals to make moral improvements an essential purpose for humanity as based on the goodness and perfection of God.
Problem is: how do I know what God wants? Unless God actually does tell me (which has never happened) I would have to let mere humans tell me; I’d have to trust people playing God. That I cannot do. StephenB @211:
Faith must pass the test of reason before we can allow it to illuminate our reason.
... so—Faith must be reasonable before it can be reasonable? Gibberish. harry @215:
Do you believe there are, accessible to any open, rational mind, objective truths that remain true whether we decide to accept them or reject them?
Truth is truth, whether we accept or reject it. Whether every rational, open mind has access is not known. Silver Asiatic @216:
What is it about the sexual act that forms the basis of the promise or contract [violated by adultery]?
The promise of fidelity.
Why does the state establish a definition of marriage and adultery in those terms? Could adultery be redefined as having dinner with someone, or saying “I love you” to someone not one’s spouse?
The State established those terms as a recognition of how human’s respond to these betrayals. Could the State redefine adultery? Sure; but to what end? StephenB @218:
We are discussing the natural moral law as it was understood and defined by the founding fathers–not as defined and understood by me.
Well this is new. I didn’t realize that was what you meant. And these founding fathers included slavery as a morally acceptable practice. Hmm. Now we have to reevaluate your past comments on slavery! If the last time the “natural moral law” was updated was about 1790, then it is way, way out of date.
The same natural law from which natural rights are derived. The same natural law that is apprehended by reason.
Reason tells us much has changed since 1790.
I have already demonstrated that the Southern bigots perverted the meaning of the natural moral law.
You have asserted it, not demonstrated it. Since (as you agree) the “natural moral law” is unwritten, you cannot cite an authoritative text that shows that Southern bigots were wrong; all you have is claims by some people who themselves might have been wrong. StephenB @220:
I can hardly “conflate” two definitions that I specifically set apart and differentiated. Do you know what “conflate” means.
Hardly matters, you still have not demonstrated what you claim you have.
Definition #1: Natural law is the product of reason–Corollary from Definition #1: “All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.”
Who gave the Framers the authority to declare this true? If they had said that “all white men are created equal” who would have the authority to overrule them?
I was not conflating those definitions; I was dramatizing the difference.
What is missing is the grounding of the Framer’s authority. They made their declaration, yet many of the signatories (including Jefferson) continued to enslave persons; a practice that didn’t miss a beat for almost 90 years.
The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason. It is also the dictionary definition: ...
The “committee” that you refer to was The Continental Congress, the forebears of the Federal Congress and the Congress that authorized ratification of the Constitution. They were a political organization, not an academy of philosophers.
“Natural law, or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis; ius naturale), is a philosophy of law that is supposedly determined by nature, and so is universal.
...but you limit this to the natural law as understood by the Framers, correct? The critical term in your own definition is “supposedly”. That is a very tentative term, and opposes your claims that the natural law definitely is universal. There’s nothing wrong with aspiring to a universal law, but the desire does not ensure the completion of the goal.
It is not, therefore, as you characterized it, “my understanding” of natural law.” Quite the contrary. It is the only legitimate definition of natural law.
Category error: what the natural law IS is a categorically different question from what is IN the natural law. I think Zachriel was referring to your understanding of the contents of the natural law, not its overall definition. On that point Zachriel’s criticism is valid.
Natural Law, by definition, is not simply a product of Scriptural interpretation.
...at least not by YOUR definition. But we’ve already seen others on this thread (who also revere the natural law) who disagree. There’s no reason to rely on your definition when other moralistic natural law advocates disagree.
Zachriel:
Furthermore, even among the signers of the Declaration, many supported slavery.
Irrelevant.
Very relevant. You assert that the framers knew slavery violated your “natural moral law” but among them were many who were quite happy with slavery and quite unlikely to label it immoral.
They all agreed that it was against the natural moral law and that it needed to be abolished.
Simply false. In the Constitution they agreed to end importation of slaves, but there was no agreement to abolish it. Far from... harry @222 and 224:
Do you believe that “one shouldn’t do to others what one would not want others to do to oneself” is one of those objective truths that remain true whether or not one accepts it?
There are no moral truths which we KNOW are objective; but this one is close. Yes, I believe in the Golden Rule.
Do you believe there is a universally applicable ethical system that consists, at a minimum, of the principle of non-malevolence towards others, the meaning of “malevolence” being understood by everyone to be “that which I wouldn’t want done to me.”?
Again, there are no moral truths which we KNOW are objective or universal. This one may well be universal, but I think the jury is still out. StephenB @225:
I didn’t draw any conclusions, nor did I make any logical arguments. Facts and definitions are not arguments.
What you did was assert a fact; a fact you assume to be correct. So you did assume that the Framers agreed with your position.
A definition does not give specifics: It makes distinctions and explains meanings. We are discussing the difference between two general meanings.
However, the definition you gave also does not support any claim that the natural law is objective or universal. harry @230:
Do you believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral?
Yes. Pedophilia, sadism; anything that leads to a harm to others by intent or indifference. ---------------------------------------- Again, apologies for the length of this. sean s.sean samis
July 12, 2015
July
07
Jul
12
12
2015
04:07 PM
4
04
07
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 10

Leave a Reply