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Gay marriage and the loss of civility

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In the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage, Professor Jerry Coyne has authored a post in which he offers his thoughts on the ruling. In a telling passage which is remarkable for its myopia, he writes:

To those who oppose gay marriage, I say this: Is it really hurting you? What does an opponent have to lose if two homosexuals get married? I suppose they could say it could lead to the dissolution of society, but that’s clearly not the case.

Is it really hurting us? Yes, and for a very simple reason: from now on, those who oppose the Supreme Court’s decision will be branded as hateful bigots who are morally on a par with members of the Ku Klux Klan, despite the fact that most American blacks say gay rights are not the same as civil rights, and despite the fact that the Reverend Martin Luther King, America’s foremost civil rights activist, described the homosexual lifestyle as a “problem” in need of a “solution” – a “habit” stemming from a series of negative “experiences and circumstances.”

A Canadian commenter named Timocrates explains how bad things are going to get in America, in a response to philosopher Ed Feser’s brilliantly written blog article, Marriage and the Matrix (June 29, 2015):

Well, coming from Canada, let me warn my American friends about what you are soon going to be facing for anything remotely like denial of legitimacy or anything short of outright approval of homosexuality and all sexual deviance.

1. Social ostracism:
– In your workplace, where you are likely to be fired and not hired at all if you are known to have “controversial” views on homosexuality;
– You family. Friends stick out much longer than they will, but even they will become much, much more quiet and reserved and increasingly hesitant to help you.

2. Social madness and increased degeneracy:
– Polite social parties may well include the suggestion, nonchalantly, to consider throwing on some porn for entertainment;
– Men in women’s bathrooms in gyms, and they kick the people who try to intervene or complain about it out of the gym
– Endless sensitivity training in the workplace so everybody knows what they are and are not allowed to say or suggest to ensure a ‘safe and comfortable’ working environment ‘for everybody’

3. School torture
– Kids will begin learning about sex and how two moms and two dads are a normal kind of family as early as 6
– Sex-ed will begin as early as Grade 6, including descriptions of oral sex
– Any child who at any time identifies with any sex will be accommodated, whether bathroom or locker room

And the final stage that is now happening in Canada, the Trannies.

Transgender people will increasingly agitate that society, government, institutions and businesses facilitate their lies. They will agitate that dating sites and services simply portray them as their chosen sex without any warning to normal, unsuspecting users of services.

That last line is arguably the scariest for single people, especially single young men. We all know how a man is likely to respond after finding out she isn’t actually a she at all – and with gender change surgeries now, this may come later.

And here’s an excerpt from a poignant article on Patheos by Rebecca Hamilton, an 18-year member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, titled, Gay Marriage Sets Friend Against Friend, Brother Against Brother (July 3, 2015):

I’m going to share my own experiences in trying to deal with the question of saving relationships in the face of gay marriage and abortion. I don’t have a magic bullet to offer. What I bring instead is a hard reality.

Here’s what I’ve learned in my own life about the question of keeping your gay friends and following Christ: You can’t do it. They won’t let you. And that’s it.

The deepest personal wounds I’ve suffered since I became a Christian have to do with gay friends that I loved and trusted with all my heart. Two of my gay friends turned on me in a sudden, absolute and public way.

One of them, in particular, I loved with all my heart. He was — and is — as dear to me as my own blood. We shared so many good things through the years. I trusted him and cherished him.

I never once tried to change him or argued with him about these differences in our beliefs. In fact, I tried to avoid talking to him about it altogether. When he realized that I did not support gay marriage, he flew into a rage and … well … it was a horrible experience.

Among other things, he accused me of lying to him because I hadn’t been more up front on the issue.
Then, he went on the internet and publicly attacked me.

The other friend turned on me over abortion. I know, gay men and the abortion industry seem to be bizarre allies, but the gay men I’ve known are pro abortion fanatics. In fact, a good many gay men work for Planned Parenthood.

I do not have one encouraging word to share with those of you who want to keep your relationships with gay people and still follow the Church. My experience is that, no matter how you try, you cannot keep your relationships with your gay friends and follow your faith. They will not let you.

Even sadder, my experience is that they do not just end the friendship. They then go out and do everything they can to hurt you.

I can honestly say that I have not retaliated. I have never broken the confidences they shared with me. I have never attacked them. I have never tried to hurt them. And I never will.

Representative Hamilton adds:

I know one homosexual person who has been willing to accept me as an individual and at least be professional friends with me. When I told her I opposed gay marriage, she said, “I would never try to force you to violate your personal morality.”

I was so grateful to her I almost cried.

But she is unique in my experience. And, as I said, we have a professional friendship, not a deep personal friendship.

Finally, in a recent article on RealClearReligion titled, Beware of the Gaystapo (July 6, 2015), Catholic author Mark Judge equates the treatment of Christians by the gay rights movement to a form of emotional abuse:

Christian America is being emotionally abused by the gay rights movement.

Emotional abuse is a sinister human reality, arguably more iniquitous in its slow-drip subtlety than outright physical abuse or political aggression. In emotional abuse a partner … is lured in by love and affection, only to have their spouse or significant other exert more and more psychological and spiritual control, then curdling into abuse. The abuser might start as a loving person with a slight edge of sarcasm, but over time they methodically pick apart the self-esteem of their partner. The occasional cutting quip becomes a steady stream of put-downs. Nothing the abused person can do is enough.

Eventually there is an atmosphere of chaos and unpredictability. Victims often have emotional breakdowns…

In his article, Judge chronicles the events leading up to this abuse:

In the beginning, advocates for gay marriage assured us that they loved America. The country wasn’t perfect, but mostly what gay activists wanted was the ability to express love without violent reprisal. They didn’t want to control the rest of us, or dictate terms or tell us what to believe. No one would lose their job or business because of gay marriage…

For a few years things went well. Gay people got to live more openly. There were more homosexual characters on television and in politics. States were debating gay marriage.

But then something changed. Liberals didn’t just accept civil unions, they demanded gay marriage — or else.

Anyone who didn’t only accept gay marriage but celebrate it was isolated as a hateful bigot. Bullying and gas-lighting of resisters became common. Gay marriage advocates ignored or denied that they had ever argued that no one would lose their job if gay marriage was passed… Like an abuser who refuses to ever acknowledge wrong doing, preferring to turn the tables on the abused, gay marriage advocates now refuse to answer the most simple questions. To ask “What is marriage?” is to be emotionally blackmailed (shame!), isolated (go back to the 1950s!) and bullied (damn right, you’ll lose your business).

Judge’s last question, “What is marriage?” gets right to the heart of the matter. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court majority, in their recent ruling (Obergefell vs. Hodges), nowhere attempted to provide a clear definition of the term “marriage.” Instead, we were told that the meaning of marriage has evolved over time, despite documents cited by dissenting Chief Justice John Roberts, showing that the term “marriage” has been understood for centuries to mean: the lifelong union of a man and a woman.

Much play has been made in the media of Elena Kagan’s facile argument that if marriage were really about procreation, as traditionalists supposedly hold, then there should be laws on the books prohibiting elderly couples from typing the knot, as there is no chance that they will procreate. But the argument overlooks two very important points.

First, what defines marriage is not procreation , but its essentially monogamous character: it is a union of one man and one woman, for life. (There have of course been societies which tolerated polygamy, but the practice invariably results in the exploitation of women. What’s more, even in societies where the practice is allowed, it is relatively uncommon: the vast majority of men have one wife.) Now, there are heterosexual couples who have what they call “open marriages,” these are relatively uncommon, and even today in America, 90% of people still regard adultery as morally wrong. However, the great majority of gay “marriages” are not sexually monogamous: they are open relationships. And even if there are some gay couples practicing monogamy, I know of no gay couple who are willing to declare that open relationships between gays (or straight people, for that matter) are not real marriages. For this reason alone, then, a strong case can be made on legal grounds for refusing to recognize gay marriage: doing so would inevitably force people to publicly sanction relationships in which sexual monogamy is no longer even recognized as an ideal. That would in turn mean that schoolchildren are no longer taught that married people should be faithful to one another until death do them part.

Second, even if it is not the case that every marriage is potentially procreative, it is certainly true that the institution of marriage would not exist, were it not for the fact that humans procreate sexually. In a hypothetical world where intelligent life-forms reproduced asexually, there would be no marriage, since there would be no need for it. Why, then, do we allow elderly couples to wed? Simple enough: because the bond between them is of the same sort as that existing between couples who wed when they were young, had children, and have now grown old. In both cases, the couples in question physically express their love in exactly the same way, and under the same conditions: they promise to be faithful to each other until death do them part. Gay marriage does not even get a foot in the door here: the physical expression of their love is quite different, and there is usually no intention to remain sexually monogamous.

In his recent post, Professor Coyne argues that people who oppose gay marriage must do so because they regard it as un-Biblical and/or unnatural. But the argument I put forward in the foregoing paragraphs made no mention of the Bible or of natural law. All it assumed was that marriage is essentially monogamous – a sentiment still upheld by the vast majority of Americans.

But I can safely bet that gay rights advocates in America will make no attempt to respond to arguments like the one I have put forward above, in civil terms. Ridicule, scorn and abuse are weapons which suit their cause better, and no attempt must be spared to make their opponents look absurd. If Professor Coyne wants to know how the legalization of gay marriage has hurt ordinary people who oppose it, I can sum it up in one sentence: thoughtful public discussions of the pros and cons of gay marriage will no longer be possible, because one side has been demonized.

What do readers think?

Comments
SB: You are not capable of rational thought. Capable of irrational thought then?Mung
July 12, 2015
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Zachriel,
harry: Do you believe there is a universally applicable ethical system that consists, at a minimum, of the principle of non-malevolence towards others, the meaning of “malevolence” being understood by everyone to be “that which I wouldn’t want done to me.”? Zachriel: No.
Do you believe there is such a thing as behavior that is intrinsically immoral?harry
July 12, 2015
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SB: Natural law, by definition, has substance beyond human preference. Zachriel
A unicorn, by definition, is a magical creature.
You are not capable of rational thought.StephenB
July 12, 2015
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Mung: lol @ the contract view of marriage.
Legal Information Institute Marriage: The legal union of a couple as spouses. The basic elements of a marriage are: (1) the parties' legal ability to marry each other, (2) mutual consent of the parties, and (3) a marriage contract as required by law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/marriage
Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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harry: Do you believe there is a universally applicable ethical system that consists, at a minimum, of the principle of non-malevolence towards others, the meaning of “malevolence” being understood by everyone to be “that which I wouldn’t want done to me.”? No. It may be a common view in many human societies, but it is hardly universal. StephenB: The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason. You are simply repeating your claim. You haven't even attempted to justify it. StephenB: Natural law, by definition, has substance beyond human preference. A unicorn, by definition, is a magical creature.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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lol @ the contract view of marriage.Mung
July 12, 2015
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SB: The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason. Zachriel
Of course you did.
????? What I did is not synonymous with what the ratifiers did. SB: The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason.
You are merely assuming your conclusion.
????? I didn't draw any conclusions, nor did I make any logical arguments. Facts and definitions are not arguments.
You haven’t shown that your version of natural law or the founders version of natural law is the one and only correct version, or even that natural law has any substance beyond human preference.
????? I didn't use "my" definition. I used the dictionary definition. ????? Natural law, by definition, has substance beyond human preference. SB: Natural law, or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis; ius naturale), is a philosophy of law that is supposedly determined by nature, and so is universal.
Nowhere is that definition does it state the specifics of natural law. It merely defines how the philosophy is viewed.
????? A definition does not give specifics: It makes distinctions and explains meanings. We are discussing the difference between two general meanings.StephenB
July 12, 2015
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Zachriel @223, Do you believe there is a universally applicable ethical system that consists, at a minimum, of the principle of non-malevolence towards others, the meaning of "malevolence" being understood by everyone to be "that which I wouldn't want done to me."?harry
July 12, 2015
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harry: Do you believe that “one shouldn’t do to others what one would not want others to do to oneself” is one of those objective truths that remain true whether or not one accepts it? No, it's not objective. Though it is a fundamental human value in many societies, it is certainly not universal.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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Zachriel @217
Do you believe there are, accessible to any open, rational mind, objective truths that remain true whether we decide to accept them or reject them? --harry Sure. --Zachriel
Do you believe that "one shouldn't do to others what one would not want others to do to oneself" is one of those objective truths that remain true whether or not one accepts it?harry
July 12, 2015
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StephenB: The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason. Of course you did. StephenB: The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law–that which is known by reason. You are merely assuming your conclusion. You haven't shown that your version of natural law or the founders version of natural law is the one and only correct version, or even that natural law has any substance beyond human preference. StephenB: Natural law, or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis; ius naturale), is a philosophy of law that is supposedly determined by nature, and so is universal. Nowhere is that definition does it state the specifics of natural law. It merely defines how the philosophy is viewed. StephenB: They all agreed that it was against the natural moral law and that it needed to be abolished. That's false.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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Zachriel
No. You conflated two different definitions.
I can hardly "conflate" two definitions that I specifically set apart and differentiated. Do you know what "conflate" means. Founding Fathers Definition #1: Natural law is the product of reason--Corollary from Definition #1: "All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." Anti-Black Bigots Definition #2 Natural law is the product of private Scriptural interpretation--corollary from definition #2, "all [white] men are created equal." I was not conflating those definitions; I was dramatizing the difference.
At most, you showed that some people perverted the meaning of the natural moral law as “understood and defined” by the the committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence.
The committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence understood the correct definition of natural law--that which is known by reason. It is also the dictionary definition: Natural Law "Natural law, or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis; ius naturale), is a philosophy of law that is supposedly determined by nature, and so is universal. Classically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature — both social and personal — and deduce binding rules of moral behavior from it." It is not, therefore, as you characterized it, "my understanding" of natural law." Quite the contrary. It is the only legitimate definition of natural law. Definition #2, therefore, could only be conceived by someone who either doesn't understand natural law or who is lying. Natural Law, by definition, is not simply a product of Scriptural interpretation.
Furthermore, even among the signers of the Declaration, many supported slavery.
Irrelevant. They all agreed that it was against the natural moral law and that it needed to be abolished.StephenB
July 12, 2015
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StephenB: I have already demonstrated that the Southern bigots perverted the meaning of the natural moral law. No. You conflated two different definitions. At most, you showed that some people perverted the meaning of the natural moral law as "understood and defined" by the the committee that ratified the Declaration of Independence. Furthermore, even among the signers of the Declaration, many supported slavery.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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zachriel
Heh. How do we distinguish that from simply everyone who agrees with you?
We are discussing the natural moral law as it was understood and defined by the founding fathers--not as defined and understood by me. The same natural law from which natural rights are derived. The same natural law that is apprehended by reason. The same natural law that was declared to be self evident. The same natural law that was expressed in the Declaration of Independence as "The Laws of Nature." The same natural law that teachers "all men are created equal"--not the novel formulation that "all white men are equal." SB: With respect to the latter, they would be wrong, demonstrably so.
And what is that demonstration?
I have already demonstrated that the Southern bigots perverted the meaning of the natural moral law.StephenB
July 12, 2015
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harry: Do you believe there are, accessible to any open, rational mind, objective truths that remain true whether we decide to accept them or reject them? Sure. That's why we asked for the demonstration, the objective evidence of the claim. So far, the only thing provided is that his position is the only correct position, and everyone else who doesn't agree with him is wrong. That tends to imply that there is no such demonstration. That doesn't mean there can't be common ground, but that's not the same as objective evidence. For instance, the Declaration of Independence doesn't argue that there are natural rights. It merely asserts them as an axiom, and if you accept the axiom, then the rest of the argument follows by necessity. But if you think that duty to your sovereign is more important than individual liberty, then the argument will fall flat. Silver Asiatic: What is it about the sexual act that forms the basis of the promise or contract? The marriage contract is a public and ceremonial proclamation.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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Z
Silver Asiatic: Is adultery ok? No. Adultery represents a breach of contract, a broken promise.
It's good to hear you say that, but for the sake of argument ... An act of adultery is a sexual act with someone not one's spouse. People generally understand this from the 10 commandments or other ancient moral codes (some would simply call it the natural moral law). What is it about the sexual act that forms the basis of the promise or contract? Why does the state establish a definition of marriage and adultery in those terms? Could adultery be redefined as having dinner with someone, or saying "I love you" to someone not one's spouse?Silver Asiatic
July 12, 2015
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Zachriel @214
How do we distinguish that from simply everyone who agrees with you?
Do you believe there are, accessible to any open, rational mind, objective truths that remain true whether we decide to accept them or reject them?harry
July 12, 2015
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StephenB: I mean it the way everyone understands it who knows what it is. Heh. How do we distinguish that from simply everyone who agrees with you? StephenB: With respect to the latter, they would be wrong, demonstrably so. And what is that demonstration? Silver Asiatic: Is adultery ok? No. Adultery represents a breach of contract, a broken promise.Zachriel
July 12, 2015
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Good thoughts and quotes of yours, too, Harry in #208.Axel
July 12, 2015
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'We could only cast our fate to the winds and follow the sorry example of Ghandi, who was once asked, “Why are you a Hindu?” He responded, “Because I was born in India, of course.” I believe Ghandi had a very unpleasant experience with a racist Englishman as a young man, when he entered a Christian church in South Africa, being told to leave in a viciously heathen way. But there seems to me to be an awful about him which suggests that he was perhaps even a secret Christian. I can't get over the prophetic wisdom of his list of: Seven Dangers to Human virtue: 1. Wealth without work 2. Pleasure without conscience 3. Knowledge without character 4. Business without ethics 5. Science without humanity 6. Religion without sacrifice 7. Politics without principle Nevertheless there are some that are of a more humanistic anodyne hue, in that they fail to reflect that we are, always have been, in the midst of a spiritual war of unimaginable ferocity and scale.Axel
July 12, 2015
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harry @208, thanks for thoughts. You write:
Yet the natural law and the Scriptures have the same Author, so either one properly understood supports the other. It is better to understand the Scriptures, though, I am sure you will agree, since that will give one an understanding of the natural law, too, and much, much more.
Yes, indeed. Faith and reason are eminently compatible in just the way you describe it. It's all about the unity of truth. There cannot be one truth for the Bible and another truth for nature. Of course, Scripture presents higher and more important truths, but the lower truths of nature, which are accessible to reason, can prompt us to seek out and believe the higher truth that have been Divinely revealed. I placed a heavy emphasis on the distinction between divine revelation and natural revelation only to counter the fundamentalist error that reduces natural law to a mere product of Scriptural interpretation--as if God's moral law could not be apprehended in the absence of religious faith.
Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the Scriptures will be excused for that, but will not be excused for not heeding the natural law written in their hearts
Precisely. This is a very timely point and it also dramatizes the importance of thinking about our destiny from the standpoint of a comparative world-view analysis. Unlike all the other world religions, Christianity satisfies our desire for a reasoned argument before it calls for intellectual assent. Faith must pass the test of reason before we can allow it to illuminate our reason. Accordingly, we cannot afford to submit our intellects and wills to life-changing falsehoods that pose as heavenly truths. Without reason and God's natural revelation, there would be no way to identify the true religion. We could only cast our fate to the winds and follow the sorry example of Ghandi, who was once asked, "Why are you a Hindu?" He responded, "Because I was born in India, of course."StephenB
July 11, 2015
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Seversky
So why not homosexuality and gay marriage? How is that so offensive in God’s eyes? Surely He is far above such petty aversions.
God is both very far above and at the same time, very intimately united with his creation. God gives a moral law for our sake not because of 'aversions' you might imagine him to have. I find this debate very difficult because often the proponents of gay marriage don't define their own moral standards on marriage. Is adultery ok? This topic, however, provides a good example of why we often point out that evolutionary materialism destroys any sense of moral standards. Theism, at least, has some standard -- you cite it in your response "Surely he is far above such petty aversions". So, you correctly look to God as the standard for moral behavior. I'd imagine you'd think there are other human activities that would not be 'petty aversions' for your understanding of who God is ... so, in that case, you could defend your morals by stating, "God is concerned about this issue, it's not a petty aversion". And where one disagrees, it's a disagreement about God -- which gives us many sources of rational argument and theological evidence (scriptures, teachings, lived experiences, revelations) to analyze. Again, materialism gives us nothing. There is simply no standard at all to reference. Under dialectical materialism of communism, homosexuality was often condemned. Certainly, Castro made several arguments condemning homosexuality from a matertialist/atheistic basis. All that meant was, as I repeated, there's no rational basis to accept or condemn homosexuality in materialism. There is no purpose or goal in materialism so no way to measure whether homosexuality (or adultery for that matter) is moving towards or away from a moral goal for any persons involved. It's the nature of theism, with a personal God, that makes moral goodness and the effort for individuals to make moral improvements an essential purpose for humanity as based on the goodness and perfection of God.Silver Asiatic
July 11, 2015
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I Was an Apologist for Gay Theology | Joe Dallas - video lecture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFr8Eh46-z8bornagain77
July 11, 2015
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Hello, StephenB, Good thoughts. Some comments on these remarks of yours in particular:
Natural Law is not written down, it is apprehended by reason. We grow in our knowledge of the natural moral law by shaping our morality to fit the facts about our human nature ... Natural Law is a fact of nature that is discovered, not simply a Biblical teaching to be believed.
True. Yet the natural law and the Scriptures have the same Author, so either one properly understood supports the other. It is better to understand the Scriptures, though, I am sure you will agree, since that will give one an understanding of the natural law, too, and much, much more. Those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the Scriptures will be excused for that, but will not be excused for not heeding the natural law written in their hearts:
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. --Romans 2:14-16
The same point made more emphatically by Paul:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools ... Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie ... For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. --Romans 1:18-32
That last citation was a little lengthy, but I included it in this post anyway because it shows how society's rejection of God back then led to the very same things that we see happening today all around us. The truth about human nature hasn't changed. God hasn't changed. The results of rejecting God and the truth about human nature hasn't changed, either.harry
July 11, 2015
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People are still at this? Ok, I'll throw in once more. There are tribes in Papua New Guinea for which it is "normal" to compel young boys to perform sex with the men of the tribe. We call it rape. They call it the norm. With our high and mighty eurocentrism we label it a culture of all around victimization. We have figured out a few things in the developed world. We really have. Let's give ourselves some credit. We need not get so egotistical that we think we must keep every cultural characteristic. But we must also not get so puffed up that we think we at this very moment have so many of the answers that we have to toss out every cultural characteristic which might've made us the success we generally are. Redefining policy to accelerate the disintegration of social norms with respect to sexual roles has no stop point. Today we say it is two consenting adults. But who defines consent? Who defines adult? Why two? These pillars, too, will fall. I used to think this was some sort of scare tactic. But really think about the unwanted ripples from altering social trajectory in less than a half of a generation, rather than over hundreds or thousands of years as the traditional peoples have done - those same people who have longer lifespans, lower incidence of disease and greater enjoyment of life than the vast majority of us. When you go to a store, if you're the type of person who gets sold by a label that says "new and improved," then I realize you aren't a thinker and I can't appeal to you. You will sign on for any foolish revision. And if you're the type of person who finds something that works really well, and you never notice new products, you aren't much of a thinker either, and no argument is going to sway you. Isn't there a middle ground which will prevent the slippery slopes AND not be interpreted as squashing the lives of the deviants?jw777
July 11, 2015
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seversky
You can find a long list of Biblical prescriptions and prohibitions which today’s Christians quite happily ignore because they now “know” better.
Interesting strategy. We make specific statements about the natural moral law that are carefully defined, and you make general statements about the bible that are conveniently undefined. It seems like a plan that was calculated to steer the subject away from the natural moral law.StephenB
July 11, 2015
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You can find a long list of Biblical prescriptions and prohibitions which today's Christians quite happily ignore because they now "know" better. I'm sure vjtorley could give us 10,000 words justifying that view. So why not homosexuality and gay marriage? How is that so offensive in God's eyes? Surely He is far above such petty aversions.Seversky
July 11, 2015
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Eugen @196, thanks for the kinds words.StephenB
July 11, 2015
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Zachriel
By “properly understood”, you mean the way you understand it.
I mean it the way everyone understands it who knows what it is.
Of course, they would have vehemently disagreed with your interpretation of both Scripture and natural law.
With respect to the latter, they would be wrong, demonstrably so. Natural Law is a fact of nature that is discovered, not simply a Biblical teaching to be believed.StephenB
July 11, 2015
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StephenB: Properly understood, it cannot be used to justify either racial discrimination or chattel slavery. By "properly understood", you mean the way you understand it. Of course, they would have vehemently disagreed with your interpretation of both Scripture and natural law.Zachriel
July 11, 2015
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