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Gregory and the Subject of Human Extension

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The following is a one-shot guest post by regular UD commenter, Gregory. I offer this because I know that Gregory’s been talking about Intelligent Design for years, and because it was my intention to give him the chance to make his case for the social sciences’ relevance to the ID discussion. As before, my posting this shouldn’t be taken as endorsement – in fact I’m very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons, which I may or may not mention later in comments. But he was civil and sincere enough, and I thought the regulars at UD would find his thoughts interesting, whether to consider or point out the flaws.

Anyway, here I cede the floor to the social sciences. Have at it, folks.

Human Extension: an Alternative Way to Look at Intelligent Design
By Gregory Sandstrom, PhD
“The endless cycles of idea and action
Endless invention, endless experiment
Brings knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.”
– T.S. Eliot

Thanks to nullasalus for agreeing to post this guest thread on Uncommon Descent.

This post contains an article that includes 3 internet links to works on evolution, creation, intelligent design and human extension that I have produced or been involved with in recent months. It also means that I am ‘coming out of the closet’ by revealing my true name. At this point in time (summer 2012), I consider that to be a risk worth taking.

When I accepted an invitation to attend the Discovery Institute’s summer program for humanities and social sciences in 2008, I did so not as an IDer, but rather as someone researching in the subfield now called sociology of science (SoS). I wanted to see who these people are that accept and promote intelligent design (ID) and learn more about the home base for the intelligent design movement (IDM), the Discovery Institute (DI) in Seattle, Washington. It was a professional curiosity regarding IDers and the IDM as much as it was a personal interest in science, philosophy and religion discourse that brought me to knock on the DI’s door.

The first day at the summer program we were given a presentation (including both the natural-physical sciences as well as the humanities and social sciences participants) by Bruce Gordon, CSC Senior Fellow. According to Gordon, there are 3 types (or definitions) of evolution: 1. change-over-time, 2. universal common descent, and 3. neo-Darwinism (by which he meant natural selection plus random mutation). Gordon said that ID has no problem with 1 or (generally, if not specifically) 2, but that 3 is believed by IDers to be either wrong or insufficient.

This may sound unusual to some people (as it would to Bruce), but I disagree mostly with 1, take no issue with 2 (though I’m open to some kind of ‘uncommon’ descent scenario, specifically with respect to human beings, e.g. ‘divine election,’ while accepting an ‘old’ Earth), and don’t much care about 3, given that my interests are mainly outside of biology, botany, zoology and genetics. I treat neo-Darwinism as an ideology rather than as a science and consider (neo-)Darwinian evolution as a legitimate natural scientific theory that seems to have many ‘errors’ in it at the same time that it also possesses many truths (cf. Allchin 2009). To clarify, I reject calling ‘(neo-)Darwinism’ a ‘scientific theory’ because of the common ideological signifier ‘-ism’ which is attached to Darwin’s name.

Regarding point 1, ‘evolution’ should not be defined or expressed to mean ‘change-over-time’ because there are ‘other’ kinds of ‘change-over-time’ that are not ‘evolutionary’ (more on this below). In other words, change is the master category, rather than evolution. Evolution is a particular type of change (i.e. non-teleological or goal-oriented and without foresight) and people should not attempt to invert the linguistic priority by giving evolution a monopoly over change. Doing so improperly privileges evolution and leads to the possibility of turning evolution from a natural scientific theory into an ideology or even a materialistic or atheistic worldview.

Taking this approach over the years has allowed me to reframe the general discourse of evolution, creation and ID which I invite people visiting or participating at UD to consider as a view that both is contra-evolutionism and humanitarian. Here I define ‘evolutionism’ as the ideological exaggeration of evolutionary theory into fields or topics where it does not properly belong. One example of this is giving ‘evolution’ a monopoly over ‘change.’ Another is the faulty transference of evolution from biology into anthropology, psychology, sociology, politics, economics and cultural studies; socio-biology and evolutionary psychology being the simplest examples.

So, UD reader, if you are against the ideology of evolutionism, then you might be interested to openly consider the position I am putting forward here and elsewhere. Truth be told, however, this position differs in significant ways from ID as it is presented and advocated for today by the IDM. If you are an IDM-ID proponent, and if you likewise consider the position I’m putting forward as valid and potentially fruitful, then you will eventually be faced with a choice between IDM-ID and the more holistic approach to science, philosophy and religion presented here. This approach claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM. This is said after having viewed the DI and IDM from within more than independent internet bloggers.

You might be wondering where I’m going with this since I’ve been working in the human-social sciences on the topic for over a decade (2010 defended a dissertation on comparative sociology). Is it my task to ridicule ID and mock you in the same way as materialists and Darwinists do? No. It turns out that I made a far-reaching discovery in 2001 that may seem counter-intuitive to some people at first, but which has held up under scrutiny, criticism and mentorship. It is either a non-ID or a neo-ID approach to knowledge and existence, thus this thread is titled “an alternative way to look at intelligent design.” Let me now explain the reasoning behind Human Extension.

This discovery effectively answers the question of ‘what doesn’t evolve’ and/or ‘what are the limits of evolution,’ while also providing a new contribution in the human-social sciences. Michael Behe writes of ‘the edge of evolution’ related to biology, but it doesn’t sound like the biological community has (yet) embraced his notion of ‘unevolvability.’ What I discovered and have tested over a decade for weaknesses and errors is an alternative approach to ‘unevolvability’ in a different core field than biology, where nevertheless evolutionary ideas are still active and current.

In short form, what I am suggesting is that it makes sense to say that technology and other human-made things (cf. ‘artificial selection’) do not ‘evolve.’ Instead, they ‘extend’ from human choices.
This human-social paradigm for science and technology studies (STS) can be expressed in two basic axioms:
Axiom 1 – Nothing human-made evolves into being (or having become);
Axiom 2 – Everything human-made extends from human choice(s), to do, to act or to make something.

If you wish to challenge Human Extension, it is with these two axioms that you should start.

The idea of ‘human extension,’ found in the work of internationally recognised culture, technology and media theorist Marshall McLuhan, the so-called ‘sage of the wired age,’ came to me before I had actually heard of ‘intelligent design’ (ID) and the intelligent design movement (IDM). When I later learned about the IDM (2002), I then became active in exploring the possibilities of their new idea, participating in discussion forums about ID and asking questions via e-mail to IDM leaders. I also visited the DI in Seattle, which was just a couple of hours drive from my home near Vancouver, Canada.

During the period of the following years, I continued to develop the answer I’d discovered, engaging with people around the world (in no less than 7 countries) on its history, possible relevance and application. After several presentations at academic conferences and then publications in scientific journals on this topic (from 2005-2010), finally in 2011 the time came to face an ‘alternative world of ID’ (Fuller 2012).

This alternative way to look at ID can be seen for the first time by visitors to UD in this TEDx talk, which raises the spectre of ID, but also goes beyond it by speaking of Human Extension and the courage of extending humanity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t85d6Bh9Nys.

One example of an ‘alternative world of ID’ that I had heard about during my journey is visible in the prolific work of American-British philosopher and sociologist of science, Steve Fuller. His approach to ID is imo on the cutting-edge, even if it is not well-known or widely accepted in the IDM. (Note for religious apologists: his Wikipedia profile is wrong – he is not an atheist or a ‘secular humanist,’ but rather an Abrahamist, educated by Jesuits.) Fuller was called as witness and participated at the 2005 Dover Trial, but that is far from being his most important contribution on this topic (see parallel thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-fuller-in-id-philosophy-news/). His work as a social epistemologist facilitates people to consider the presuppositions and implications of ID theory, in ways that both distinguishes it from ‘creationism’ while also revealing its dependency on the worldview of its founders who all believe human beings are/were created in imago Dei. According to Fuller, without recognising this and the “deep theological roots” of ‘intelligent design,’ any theory that takes its name makes little sense from a historical or intellectual perspective.

As a result of following the trail Fuller has blazed, over the past few years I’ve come to realise that humanities and social sciences enable fresh access to ‘the bridge’ between natural sciences, philosophy and theology that IDers have written and spoken about but have yet to practically cross. Crossing such a bridge is possible because meaning, purpose and values are involved in humanities and social sciences in a way they are not in natural sciences. In other words, by ‘humanising ID’ into the humanities and social sciences, i.e. by recognising the inescapable ‘reflexivity’ (both individual and group-oriented) involved in defining and interpreting ‘intelligent design’ both now and in the first place (1980’s & 90’s), a new type of qualitative evaluation or meaning infusion can be revealed that is not now available in IDM-ID.

Towards this prospect, a series of short papers has been recently published on the topic (http://social-epistemology.com/2012/06/05/sandstrom-basboll-craddock-scott-intelligent-design-as-social-epistemology-collective-judgment-forum/), called “Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology” (ID as SE). The involvement of social epistemologists on the topic of ID actually realises the predictions that DI scholars made in the 1990s regarding the unique role of non-natural sciences in shaping the future and current meaning of ‘intelligent design.’ In other words, we are ahead of the IDM in looking at the social influences on and actual beliefs of IDers, thus providing a valuable service to scientists and laypeople from a sociological perspective.

This means that we don’t just look at ID as an ‘ontological’ view (i.e. the position that contends there *is* ‘detectable’ design in the natural world), but instead as an ‘epistemological’ view people hold that displays various pre-commitments and background assumptions. By looking closer at the personal-ideological features of ID, a contribution by humanities and social sciences can be welcomed. This is what is being suggested here now at UD, though much more work is presented elsewhere, and it is granted that even more remains on the road towards you being convinced.

If you’ve made it this far you may be wondering why this matters to the IDM? Why should people who are promoting ID predominantly in natural-physical and applied sciences pay any attention at all to social sciences and humanities? First, because admitting that ‘social epistemology’ is in *any* way involved with ID theory challenges the neutrality-myth that ID is merely a detached, impersonal, objectivistic, scientific theory of order, teleology and information. Also, because ‘Darwinism,’ the greatest singular ideological enemy of the IDM, has in some ways also affected the social sciences and humanities in the form of ‘social Darwinism.’

It may have seemed like a good idea to insist that ID-is-science-only using (copying, imitating, etc.) the preferred language of natural scientific methods. But in fact doing just that actually compromises the core meaning of ID, which imo has the higher potential to re-humanise, rather than to dehumanise via its connection with philosophy and theology. The neutrality-myth indeed can be seen as a burden on the soul of the scientist, just as much as some people consider it as a kind of liberation (or escape) from religion to study ‘just the facts.’ The meaning of ‘intelligent design’ as Fuller and I approach it is about ideas, pre-commitments and the personal worldview(s) of its proponents as much as it is about biological data and physical or material details. Admitting that the psychological dimension is inevitably part of ‘doing science’ will be a humbling experience for the neutrality-myth proponents of ID.

To suggest that ‘atheists could be IDers’ is also deemed as an ingenuous and highly unlikely if not impossible proposition. If one believes that the world is ordered, guided, and/or governed by a transcendent intelligence, like the Abrahamic God, as do Fuller and myself and presumably all other ‘real’ (authentic) IDers, then the suggestion that ‘atheistic ID’ is even a possibility is removed from the logical table of discussion. David Berlinski is thus a mere anti-Darwinist rather than a pro-IDer, sharing positive theological meanings of ‘design.’

Atheists can therefore become IDers, but they cannot disbelieve in God and also accept the core meaning of ID, that people are divinely-created (and are thus able to recognize ‘intelligence’ in the created world). IDers are persons of faith in a ‘designer/Designer,’ even if they do not often include (i.e. even sometimes purposely exclude) discussion about it in their persistent quest for ID’s scientificity. It is not controversial to grasp this or to express it.

What it speaks to is one of the most significant features of ID theory that often goes unnoticed. Without showing what ID has to do with actual persons, i.e. how ID makes a difference of meaning in people’s lives, the notion of ID ‘in biology’ or ‘in nature’ cannot properly resonate with or influence humanity. IDM-ID as a ‘neutral-natural-science’ thus obscures as much as it enlightens. That is why humanities and social sciences scholars need to be pro-actively invited for constructive dialogue with ID natural scientists, engineers, programmers and theologians. The former fields contain insights into meaning, purpose, value and ethics that natural and applied scientists simply do not possess. Objectivistic approaches to ‘intelligence’ and ‘design’ thus only give a partial view of the story, which can also be informed by subjectivity and personality.

By turning to ‘an alternative world of ID’ that places the central focus on human choices, purpose, meaning and teleology in opposition to universal evolutionism, a direct, realistic path opens up to overcoming naturalistic and materialistic ideologies that have tended to extinguish belief in the human spirit. It is expected that 99% of IDers support belief in the ‘human spirit’ and rejection of materialism as an obligation. Materialism is an ideology that is simply not satisfactory when employed on topics of choice and action. But the IDM has not (yet) satisfactorily explored these topics. This is where looking to Human Extension offers new hope for an end to the (Anglo-American) ‘culture wars’ over evolutionism, not to mention ‘Darwinism.’

The arrival of a social scientific approach to ‘intelligent design’ such as Human Extension is surprisingly what the DI already predicted in the 1990s and what is now finally coming to happen. Though it may appear to look like IDM-ID, in fact Human Extension differs considerably in speaking with emphasis anthropically and reflexively. Nevertheless, what some of you at UD mean by ‘design’ may be thought to be what I mean by ‘extension.’ Looking deeper at these two notions will thus help to clarify the differences and similarities; for now it is enough to say that the two positions share a common opposition to evolutionism.
The greatest indictment of evolutionary philosophy: it brings “knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.” This is how extension is able to challenge evolutionary philosophy by insisting that pauses and lack of change, voids and moments of stillness are part of human life and existence. Unceasing eternal/temporal change is as impossible to the human mind, body and soul as eternal/temporal sameness.

What people are seeking today is thus a balance between statics and dynamics, between more and enough, between science, philosophy and religion. This is what Human Extension helps people to more directly explore and encounter than is possible through the lens of evolutionary philosophy or naturalistic ID.

Change is involved in human living, whether we call it ‘evolution’ or not. But there are also pauses or gaps or voids or stillness, which are a part of human existence. The way we label this recognition will inform the post-evolutionistic epoch. Even those who subscribe to theistic evolution (TE) or evolutionary creation (EC) will find it helpful that ‘evolutionism’ can be safely exposed as ideology and removed from carrying a label of ‘scientific.’ This is what my work over the past decade has shown, which is now revealed at UD under the label of Human Extension, as it has been called elsewhere. For those interested to pursue the idea further, much more than this short introduction is written and available elsewhere (just follow the link on my name).

Human Extension is an example of ‘change-over-time’ that is not evolutionary; it involves purpose, plan, goal(s), meaning and direction (teleology) that is not present in biological evolutionary theories. It is a human-social scientific (reflexive) contribution to knowledge and discourse involving evolution, creation and intelligent design. By allowing choice a foot in the door via Human Extension, the ideology of evolutionism can be overcome, allowing a significant step to be taken in human-social thought toward more balanced, collaborative dialogue between the major realms of science, philosophy and religion.

There is now therefore a new position available in the conversation to contemplate, a post-neo-evolutionary position, which draws on rich and deep traditions in a variety of scholarly fields, from philosophy and theology to communications, psychology, geography, anthropology, mathematics and economics. This position, not one from biology, engineering, informatics or origins of life studies, offers a sincere, deliberate and long-prepared challenge to evolutionism and IDM-ID. This includes hope for clarification and collaboration, as well as a reality check to the IDM’s narrow naturalistic notion of ‘intelligent design,’ which so far (purposely) excludes human meaning.

So, now that I’ve come out of the closet and revealed myself and this dynamic-static, more-enough, counter-evolutionistic approach that has been in the works for years, is it possible that you will you respond favourably and with constructively critical comments, challenges or questions? Will you instead drop the plastic hammer of condemnation by stating how irrelevant the social sciences are in the contemporary world, how humanity doesn’t actually matter very much for intelligent design, evolution and creation topics, that they involve nothing but objective or empirical scientific questions? Or will you keep the option open that a new paradigm or heuristic could arise to shed new light on old problems, including issues of whether or not mind, consciousness or spirit are involved (reflexively) in the world of human nature?

I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there. I may disagree with their ‘blind’ acceptance of ID, but I don’t reject them as persons. The choice is now up to you: in what way you will extend your hand to me and to this new possibility of Human Extension as an integrative insight into science, philosophy and theology?

“Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.” – Pope John Paul II

Extension is a “fundamental notion concerning the nature of reality.” – A.N. Whitehead

Sources:
Allchin, Douglas (2009). “Celebrating Darwin’s Errors.” The American Biology Teacher, Vol. 71, No. 2. Earlier form adapted and posted here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~allch001/papers/D-errors-NYU.pdf
Dembski, William (2004). The Design Revolution. Inter-Varsity Press.
Fuller, Steve (2006). The New Sociological Imagination. Sage Publications.

McLuhan, Marshall (1964). Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man. New York: McGraw-Hill

Comments
PeterJ,
I don’t understand why you consider ‘the theory of evolution’ to be necessarily exempt from certain fields?
It means he doesn't want you to conflate "the theory of evolution" your way, he wants you to conflate it his way. The word "evolution" had been around for a long while prior to 1859, and it doesn't need a theory. It can be used in virtually any context where makes sense. The "theory" of evolution, on the other hand, is a specific biological process where specific things happen. He doesn't want you to conflate that biological process with other contexts, he wants to do it for you so that he may startle your senses with his immaculate vision - human-made things don't evolve because they are human choices among the pitiless indifference. yawnUpright BiPed
September 16, 2013
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Turning the page at UD, NEO-ID is now on the table. ID as a natural-science-only ‘discipline’ is challenged. This is the first time a neo-id/NEO-ID approach has been proposed. Human Extension is an improvement to the discourse that involves choices, decisions, actions and the daily lives of people. Here is what nobody has debated or questioned in this thread: “an approach which *can* study designers and design processes directly has (much) more explanatory power than an approach which doesn’t.” The only conclusion to be made from the silence of ID proponents is that this must be true. Likewise, an approach which actually studies ‘intelligent agents’ has more explanatory power than an approach that merely appeals to them/us through analogy, but doesn’t study them/us directly. This should be easy to accept but hard to swallow by ID supporters and advocates. Many people are asking for the study of actual, real intelligent agents to be shown. So why not give it to them? As a sociologist, I’m willing to study and already active in studying intelligent agents (aka ‘designers’) and in planning, designing, manufacturing ‘design’ processes. Yet I am doing this under a different name than Intelligent Design theory. This speaks of the limitations of ID theory, disallowing it to be proposed as a ‘theory of everything.’ What this means is that Human Extension can (and already does) exceed ID in a way meaningful to *all* human beings as agents of extension. Scientific and philosophical theories should likewise be understood and treated as human-made things, which means they can be studied as ‘Human Extensions.’ This shows how Human Extension opens a new horizon involving intelligent agency and the dialogue of science, philosophy and theology that the IDM has yet to discover. “The simplest way out of this impasse, Gregory, is for you to drop the polemically intended expression ‘IDM-ID’ and refer to ‘ID’ when you are talking about biological and human origins, and ‘id’ (lower-case) when you are talking about ‘intelligent design’ in a broader way compatible with your project of ‘Human Extension’.” – Timaeus Agreed – Done. So now I’ve called it Big-ID (or upper case ID, following the highly respected Christian scholar Owen Gingerich, and more specifically, physicist-priest George Murphy, with slight adjustment), instead of ‘IDM-ID’ (as you can see in the linguistic change made above). ‘Big ID vs. small id’ is a distinction that Timaeus also made himself here, likely following his participation at ASA in 2009, so he should be pleased with this (though he will likely complain just to complain). Let us be realistic and fair: small-id vs. Big-ID is a significant and valid distinction. It provides meaningful descriptive value for those who believe God designed/created the heavens and the earth and also makes room for those who reject scientific proof claims of the IDM. “Human Extension, done properly, could be a very valuable project in social science.” – Timaeus Thank you for your support! Now maybe you could back up what you claim is possible by telling more about how Human Extension overcomes evolutionistic ideology by circumscribing the legitimate realms in which ‘evolutionary theory’ is considered legitimate and thus limiting and shrinking evolutionism to a manageable size. Jump on board, Timaeus, that is a significant achievement in the waiting-to-be-popularised. And it might do you good not to spend all your time trying to defend ID theories, but also to explore other fruitful avenues in the scholarly world. Optimus offers (along with a few others) a different story than Timaeus in regard to whether or not he believes “ID social theory is a misnomer.” Optimus says: “Yes. ID methodology can be applied successfully to things of either human or nonhuman origin.” Iow, Big-ID is not *only* aimed at OoL and OoBI, but also at Human-Made Things. If Optimus is right, then the question is, why haven’t complex/functionally-specified info, pattern recognition and/or mechanical complexity METRICS yet been applied by the IDM to ‘things of human origin’? It should be relatively easy to make a metric of human design, shouldn’t it? That would offer a level of validity to ID theories that they have not yet achieved in the speculative scientific sphere. KF spoke of TRIZ, which Dembski, the founder of Uncommon Descent blog cites as a valid approach. But Dembski does not provide a recognized METRIC, i.e. measurement for ‘innovation’ by ‘design.’ So where are the numbers for a quantitative ID theory of human designs, if Dembski has not provided them? Tragic Mishap (#7) was absolutely right that I am drawing a line in the sand: “This approach [Human Extension/ neo-id/NEO-ID] claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM.” As one of few people who has gained access inside the ID institutional enterprise, I believe there is a vast gap to be crossed between claims about the Origins of Life, the Origins of BioLogical information and Human Origins and what is actually meaningful and monumental to people in their lives, in their thoughts, in their hearts. On a positive note, I continue to believe as Steve Fuller expressed in this thread: “ID is the place where the science-theology nexus is taken seriously as an intellectual project, and is in fact what makes ID an exciting research orientation.” That is, I imagine there is much hope if more work can be done in this collaborative science-theology cause. Unfortunately, since most UD visitors do not seem to wish to positively consider this possibility, nothing more can be built in dialogue here on this theme at the current time. That’s all I have time for now and will likely drop away from UD, given other educational and academic responsibilities. I’ll be attending 5 conferences in the next two months including one directly on the topic of ‘design,’ but which has nothing to do with Intelligent Design. There over 500 scholars and scientists will be attending to discuss non-Big-ID meanings of ‘design’. It really seems to be almost another universe of dialogue about ‘design’ than the one people are engaged in here. johnnyb, I imagine, would be excited and very interested to participate there (but it’s quite far away from his home state). I’ve been invited to speak about ‘design’ there, but more importantly about Human Extension as an idea that goes beyond Big-ID. The causes of human flourishing and the betterment of our world seem much more important to me than objectivistic, scientistic (read: aiming primarily at scientificity in biology and OoL) notions of ‘design’ that are currently the main focus of the IDM. Big-ID may seem very important to you folks (worth fighting tooth and claw with 'new atheists') in the project of American 'cultural renewal,' but let me assure you that for fruitful society-politics-religion discourse on the global (multi-polar) scale, speaking of neo-id/NEO-ID in the name of Human Extension has much more potential than what you've currently imagined or allowed to be thought here at UD. If anyone reading this should be interested to learn more about Human Extension or to challenge and contemplate it elsewhere, here is a link to follow. Thanks to nullasalus for the opportunity to present my ideas, to KF for beginning to engage them and to all others who sincerely confronted Human Extension at Uncommon Descent. Gregory p.s. in case any of you didn’t know it, with tongue firmly in cheek since StephenB’s bluff got called, ‘sandcastles’ (and violins) aren’t actually ‘built’ by people; they are just abstractly ‘designed’ by __??__ and then happen (without the help of bodies or tools) to spontaneously emerge (or ‘evolve’) into reality by God-knows-who-how-when-where-or-why; this instantiation or manifestation of ‘design/Design’ is what Big-ID theory currently requires people *not* to explore or even to imagine, which is why with scholarly confidence I firmly and unequivocally reject it.Gregory
September 29, 2012
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Beyond ID biological science, Human Extension is meaningful to people. On a broad scale, a major challenge seems to be that ID is not interested in a general study of design for its own sake, but rather as a specific study of ‘design in nature,’ which ID leaders believe is related to cosmo-genesis and bio-genesis. This explains why there are many ‘design theorists’ that UD folks don’t know much if anything about for the basic reason that they are not showcased by the IDM. I could easily cite a dozen ‘design theorists’ that the IDM has either never mentioned or just skirted in order to erect their ‘alternative design/Design’ approach and apologetics. If the IDM was genuinely interested in a general study of design for its own sake, it would include these ‘design theorists’ more prominently. Human Extension, on the other hand, is interested in ‘design,’ not just for some kind of analogy with the cosmos and biological information, but for its relevance and impact on daily lives of people around the world. So, there appears to be a ‘selective design’ component of the IDM, where some ‘designs’ (and ‘designers’) are excluded from ID theory. The main point here, however, is not about using Human Extension to learn more about human designs, so that it would aid us in learning more about ‘design in nature.’ Instead, studying Human Extensions should be seen as a good in its own sake, for the purpose of anthropic understanding that potentially leads to human betterment, which does not require claims about the origins of life and biological information (OoL&BI). This means putting more emphasis on the ‘intelligence or unintelligence’ behind human-made and managed institutional structures, which everyone living on the planet can express themselves on or about as members of a society or nation. It has never been my intention to build Human Extension in order to help ID theory. This should be clear when noting that I discovered ‘extension’ before hearing about ID. If ID theory (or what some here call ID methodology) is capable of achieving success, if it is destined to achieve success, then it will and must do so on its own, regardless of outside help. That said, it still makes sense that ID proponents would consider the advice I have given to them in this OP. My recommendation for IDists is to accept that ID is a science, philosophy and theology conversation at its core and stop trying to claim it is ‘science-only,’ even if it uses scientific methods and scientific language like probability and information theories, bio-chemistry and genetics. Pattern recognition and specification cuts across almost all scholarly fields; but Dembski is surely either joking or full of revolutionary over-optimism if he thinks he can build a CSI metric for ‘designs by intelligent agents’ such as human beings within his lifetime. Intelligent agency is a much more complex topic than anything confronted in the biological or other natural-physical sciences. Human Extension does what ID does not do by involving the ‘tension’ in human choices and the consequences of choices and actions, including the choice and action: to design or not to design. (cont’d – 3 of 4)Gregory
September 16, 2012
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By calling ID ‘scientific’ an end limit to ID theory is inevitable. The best solution is therefore to consider a ‘neo-intelligent design’ (neo-id) approach that both claims scientificity and at the same time refuses scientificity at the level of human reflexivity (cf. subjectivity). The arrival of neo-id means that avoiding to look at designers or at design processes is simply too weak to contain much explanatory value at all. This is why ID is called ‘minimalist,’ which makes it a wonder some people refer to the coming of a ‘design revolution’ and ID as a ‘new kind of science.’ This post addresses ID’s explanatory power and what difference Human Extension makes as a neo-id approach: What Happens When Neo- Comes When ‘Neo’ comes, no longer must people artificially refuse to speak of ‘designers’ or ‘design processes.’ neo-id becomes part of a larger discourse that involves the ‘extension’ of choice, design, will, creativity, etc. This should be a boon for ID advocates who wish to explore ‘designs’ that can actually be proven in the historical record, rather than those that cannot or only highly speculatively, as in the case with origins of life and human origins. Timaeus comment in #74 was frankly, if rather crudely, the best comment put forward: "He [Gregory] would do better to stop banging his head against the wall, accede to the ID people’s own use of the term, and sell ‘Human Extension’ on its own merits, and not try to connect it in any way with ID." I make no argument that ‘ID people’ (whatever that means in a ‘tent’ sense) can define ‘ID' however they want (while I and others like Owen Gingerich call it Big-ID). My view of Human Extension is consistent with Steve Fuller’s notion that small-id best expresses the idea that we are created in imago Dei. If ID people don't wish to admit that is part of their theory, they are free to do so. In either case, Human Extension offers a topic of interest to people attracted to discussions of Creation, Evolution and small-id/Big-ID, but who wish to consider new avenues, opportunities and stages for discussion. Human Extension is *not connected in any way with ID*, but it is relevant for Creation, Evolution and small-id/Big-ID discourse. For example, in the UD post above I listed two axioms of Human Extension, which both relate to ‘evolution’ (and by implication, evolutionism), but no one here commented on them. Indeed, Human Extension places the focus on 'creativity,' 'creation' and 'choices' in a way that is not currently discussed in most Creation, Evolution and ID conversations. Are you interested in trying something new? Human Extension is not for sale, as Timaeus tries to portray it. Instead, it patiently opens a way to look at human designs, constructions, models, formulae, systems, structures, institutions, etc., with new eyes. Human Extension does what ID has not done and cannot do and it does it with academic rigour and collaboration with those that ID has so far proven unable to collaborate with. Human Extension can be embraced by IDers, TEs, ECs, OECs, YECs, agnostics and atheists, all at the same time, while the original formulation speaks positively of a science, philosophy, theology cooperative dialogue. In trying to make a contribution mainly or exclusively in natural science, ID has found itself unable to make a lasting impact in science, philosophy and theology discourse, even though (to its credit) it has enabled new conversations in this realm that were not possible before it came on the scene in the late-1980s, early 1990s. In case you thought I was completely opposed to ID, here are some ways that I find ID (by which I mean Big-ID) to be agreeable: 1) It places focus on human exceptionalism (except when it claims to focus only on Origins of Life [OoL] and Origins of BioLogical Information [OoBI]), even if, as vjtorley recently wrote, its proof of its actual contribution to this topic may come only ‘decades in the future.’ 2) It highlights ‘intelligence’ instead of ‘chance and necessity,’ which implies that ‘human intelligence’ might also be a ‘scientific’ topic; 3) It opposes naturalism (except when it is being naturalistic), evolutionism (except when it is being evolutionistic), scientism (except when it is being scientistic), reductionism (except when it is being reductionistic) and materialism (which is the only ideology I haven’t witnessed Big-ID promoting), iow, it takes ideology into account in its popular version of the ‘wedge’ strategy – both opposing (neo-)Darwinism and promoting Intelligent Designism (the ideology that says ‘everything *is* designed’); 4) It implies that science, philosophy and religion need not be seen as in ‘conflict’ with one another, by inviting philosophers and theologians in dialogue with natural scientists; 5) It believes in ‘scientific revolutions’ as Thomas Kuhn (physicist, historian, philosopher and sociologist of science) and adopts the language of ‘revolutionaries,’ stating such things as that the language of science can and should be changed. In this case, I consider it gutsy, but ultimately without a suitable paradigm to do what ID leaders have effectively promised is possible. Human Extension can go much further than what ID aims to do scientifically. (cont’d 2 of 4)Gregory
September 15, 2012
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If ‘ID science’ can’t survive, then what possibly can? This message gives a one month belated summary of the thread as a way to turn the page for me and Human Extension at UD. What was discussed here may not have revealed much for some of you, but it did show quite a bit to me about ID proponents and the IDM and both why and how Human Extension can (and God willing, will) become important in effectively providing what both ID and evolutionism do not and cannot, whether they want to, believe they can or not. Here’s how this thread started: First, as proposed to nullasalus, I wrote about Human Extension in a ‘made-for-UD’ essay and attempted to explain how its introduction to and inclusion in the discourse offers a potentially significant shift in how people can speak about evolution, creation and intelligent design (also called capitalised ‘Intelligent Design,’ more below). Next, I linked to a TEDx talk I delivered earlier this year called “The Courage of Extending Humanity: Facing the Challenge of Evolution, Creation and Intelligent Design”: The Courage of Extending Humanity But no one at UD commented on this, even though it does precisely what most of you folks appear to desire and that you usually applaud – taking Intelligent Design (even if tangentially) into the public sphere*. Then I linked to a more recent piece called “Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology”: ID as SE Again, no one at UD commented on this, though the treatment of ID was fairly balanced. I had thought that scholars discussing ID in respect of established Journals (e.g. Social Epistemology – 25 yrs) would be of sincere interest to UD folk, but apparently it is not. Perhaps I chose the wrong format or since I reject ID, people here would therefore not engage with me at UD. It’s still a mystery since no one has explained this and since many atheists who attack ID are entertained here. Could it be that friendly criticism is too much to tolerate in conversation? That’s when the going got rougher. The ‘proof’ (i.e. research showing) that ID is in fact a ‘social epistemology’ directly contradicts the view commonly held here that ‘ID science’ is ‘value neutral.’ So it seems to have become desirable and perhaps even necessary for ‘ID neutral’ proponents (the majority here at UD) to oppose the view I and others promote, which says that ID is actually *not* value neutral and neither is any scientific knowledge. These are the findings of the field called sociology of science (SoS) and/or sociology of scientific knowledge (SoSK), which apparently ID proponents at UD are not yet ready or willing to face. In the meantime, I posted a thread closely related to this one at my blog: “Human Extension vs. the Discovery Institute’s Theory of Intelligent Design” Human Extension vs. ID This thread explains what Human Extension adds to the conversation involving science, philosophy and theology, evolution and creation, origins and processes, which is not present in the current formulation of ID theory. This one has some sting to it for IDers and was written after this thread started. More recently, I articulated my thoughts drawing on UD contributions here: “Big-ID and small-id – Why does it matter?” Big-ID and small-id And even more recently, I added this thread, which shows (despite one person’s repetitive disbelief) that I’ve actually read quite a lot of ID literature and simply disagree with it, but in a creative and practical way: 4 Causes and Effects of IDM and Darwinian Evolution Your thoughts and critiques or corrections are especially welcome in this Blog post as the Methodology of Marshall McLuhan’s ‘new science’ is not closed; it is open for additions and contributions. Here is your opportunity, respected UD folks, to teach me all of the things that I misunderstand or don’t know about ID and to correct my misunderstandings of ID because this Tetrad contains the main points of my view of ID (although it is dated several years ago and several views and quotations have been updated). This paper was written alongside the research I did on the IDM during my graduate studies, which culminated in a master’s thesis on Evolution, Intelligent Design and Extension (and which actually helped introduce ID into a foreign country). And then most recently, over 2 week ago, I dropped a bombshell that johnnyb and others who attended his Engineering and Metaphysics event can surely relate to (and which perhaps Mike Holcumbrink understands best). I raised the notion of whose ‘design in nature’ should be accepted – the IDM’s or internationally acclaimed engineering Professor Adrian Bejan’s Whose 'Design in Nature' do you accept? What does this have to do with Human Extension? It is HE’s way of clearing space for dialogue in a territory riddled with uncertainty, ‘culture warring’ and both true and false claims to scientificity. Human Extension is already backed up historically by multiple fields and it is capable of challenging the ideology of evolutionism in a way that ID leaders have not imagined. [*Btw, the only other TEDx talk addressing ‘intelligent design’ I found was from Michael Behe: Behe on TEDx Again, it’s probably not worth discussing at UD (though he even mentioned ‘sociology’ and listen closely folks, he claims that “by chance” he “fell in with some bad company,” meaning IDers. Behe thus believes in chance too! And also, he says, the cell is a “piece of machinery…and I mean that literally” … “little trucks and buses.” Btw, in case you are not a mechanistic thinker, e.g. like Michael Denton – if you didn’t catch it, Behe says: “a mousetrap is a machine.” And don’t forget, as Behe reminds us ‘Design’ is the ‘D’ in TED even if TED almost completely rejects Big-ID, and not just for scientific, but also political and educational reasons).] (cont’d 1 of 4)Gregory
September 13, 2012
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Optimus wrote: “When Richard Dawkins and co. begin insisting that cars, coffee makers, and smartphones are the product of evolution, then maybe ID’s focus will shift to human design.” You don’t need to look to Dawkins. William Dembski, founder of this blog, believes that ‘technology evolves.’ What more do you need? See the discussion with KF in the “ID as Science of God” thread. Or do a search for TRIZ, which Dembski and ISCID promote(d). Human Extension can help here, Optimus, while ID concentrates all its efforts on cosmological and biological and (occasionally) anthropological origins. Just please don’t tell me there is (or even *can be*) an ID theory of ‘human design’ when there isn’t. Do we agree on that? “ID is agnostic to the identity and nature of the designer, so it is irrelevant whether the designer is human or not. Without prior or empirical knowledge of the designer it is impossible to say with absolute certainty what or who the designer was.” – Optimus We do have ‘prior’ and ‘empirical knowledge’ of human beings, by virtue of being human, wouldn’t you agree? There are some ‘designers’ that it is not possible to be agnostic about because we are them. “The reason ID is relevant and compelling is that legions of otherwise rational, educated human beings are stubbornly devoted to promoting the pseudoscientific idea that everything is the product of mindless forces.” – Optimus The alternative that “everything is the product of mindful forces” is typically called Classical Theism, rather than ID. I believe the world is ‘mindfully made,’ but that doesn’t automatically make me an IDer. “Until then its focus remains on one the most profound questions anyone can ask, namely, “where do we (and the universe) come from”?” – Optimus If you don’t mind, I reserve the right, along with Mother Church, to keep that question in the realm of religion and theology, and not to trade it into the realm of natural sciences.Gregory
August 13, 2012
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StephenB: Thanks for your encouragement in 111. And I appreciate your irony in 116. Gregory appears to have missed it entirely, which is why, in 117, he is indignant rather than smiling at your wit. I guess that stodgy old "textual scholars" pick up things that young, cutting-edge sociologists don't. Gregory: 1. I didn't say that you mentioned Human Extension on the old ASA list. Read what I wrote more carefully. 2. Yes, you sometimes say that Human Extension is an alternative way of looking *at* ID. But you also sometimes write of it as an alternative *to* ID, or to the discussion between ID, TE, Darwinism, etc. -- which is a discussion about biological origins. I'm not going to waste time digging up examples, though I could find several, but you certainly used the phrase "alternative to" in: "for many people it is entirely new to imagine any possible *alternative to* ‘evolution, creation and intelligent design’ in their current forms" [and the context makes clear that Human Extension is the "alternative to"] 3. I wasn't trying to be "deceptive" to UD readers about your ASA appearances. I was trying to be very careful not to reveal, even accidentally, anything about your past internet names or activity. That is why I phrased things as if I knew less about you than I did, just in case you had not yet identified yourself with that older Gregory. I thought you had, but my memory might have been faulty, and I did not want to "out" that older Gregory due to a slip in my memory. You see, Gregory, I have a sense of honor and I respect trusts privately exchanged. Back when you were still trying to keep your identity from the public, I knew who you were, and I could have "outed" you directly, or dropped all kinds of clues to your identity. But I didn't. This has to do partly with my Christian convictions, and partly with the fact that I was brought up with that "old school" education and set of cultural values which you have consistently mocked in your often sarcastic public replies to me. 4. As for the rest, you continue to write as if I am imposing some private definition upon ID. You clearly ignored my massive list of public confirmations of my understanding, a list which I could extend at will. You clearly ignore the fact that everyone here shares my understanding, and that you are the odd man out. As for your "counterargument" that the definition of ID is collective rather than individual -- yes, that was exactly my point. It is collective, and the collective that defines it does not include Gregory, but includes Behe, Dembski, Nelson, Meyer, Wells, the other Discovery fellows, the leaders here at UD, and a large set of recognized opponents (Miller, Ayala, Giberson, Dawkins, Coyne, Scott, etc.) who all understand ID to be a theory of origins, not a social/human study of the designing process. 5. The simplest way out of this impasse, Gregory, is for you to drop the polemically intended expression "IDM-ID" and refer to "ID" when you are talking about biological and human origins, and "id" (lower-case) when you are talking about "intelligent design" in a broader way compatible with your project of "Human Extension." That would show respect for ID people (something you claim is so very, very important that you would waste hours bickering about the capital L in BioLogos), and would allow you a free hand to praise Human Extension to the skies, without raising a single objection from ID people. The question is whether you are so fixated on your own language that you cannot accede to established usage and retreat to a more reasonable position. And now, let's move on. I've already granted you that Human Extension, done properly, could be a very valuable project in social science. I've already said that ID people have no objection whatsoever if you pursue that project. Nothing prevents you from pursuing the insights of Marshall McLuhan or of Buckminster Fuller or of Berdyaev or of anyone else, while ID people pursue the insights provided by modern biochemistry, probability theory, information theory, etc. There can be peace between Human Extension and ID. If there is war instead, the war will be caused, not by ID people, but by Human Extension supporters behaving imperialistically, trying to alter the language of ID and trying to change the behavior of ID proponents. Sincere best wishes for your project of Human Extension.Timaeus
August 12, 2012
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Thank you for proving the point Judas, end of conversation.Gregory
August 12, 2012
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--"I do not believe those things. I am not a literary deconstructionist or social constructivist. We obviously have very different training." But Gregory, this is the way I choose to define you. What you say about yourself or how you define your operational terms doesn't matter. You claim to be about HE, but I say that you are about SC-LD-HE. Therefore, you are about SC-LD-HE.StephenB
August 12, 2012
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Sandcastles #104, StephenB. Do you care to try? Apparently not. #114 is so far off it stinks of false sincerity. Will we yet witness an ID proponent stoop to the lowest? "From my Literary Deconstructionist background, I learned, just as Gregory learned, that a text means whatever I want it to mean, and that the author’s intentions mean nothing." - StephenB I do not believe those things. I am not a literary deconstructionist or social constructivist. We obviously have very different training. But you don't seem to care about other things dealing with reality, StephenB, because it still means I am challenging IDM-ID which you hold most dear. Impolite.Gregory
August 12, 2012
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Gregory’s SC-LD-HE perspective is defined, in large part, by his Social Contructivist (SC) and Literary Deconstructionist (LD) roots, both of which provided the anti-intellectual spark for the Human Extension (HE) project. Gregory may think he is promoting Human Extension, but he is really advocating the reflexivity of Social Constructivism and the subjectivity of Literary Deconstructionism. Unfortunately, he cannot extricate himself from the historical reality of the SC-LD-HE movement. It is the sum total of the aforementioned cultural factors that define the HE project, and we should not grant to Gregory the privilege of defining it for himself. From my Literary Deconstructionist background, I learned, just as Gregory learned, that a text means whatever I want it to mean, and that the author’s intentions mean nothing. Whatever I want to read into a text should be taken as a fair interpretation of that text. Since I interpret Gregory’s comments to be a product of his SC-LD-HE perspective, that will be the starting point of my reality. Now he may question my account of HE history, or my contention that he is really an advocate of SC-LD-HE, but let him question away. According to the SC-LD-HE perspective, from which I am now operating, if an idea resides in my mind, it need not correspond to reality in order to be true. Since I have this perception of Gregory’s Human Extension project, it automatically qualifies as a correct definition. It is on that basis, that I would like to share a few ideas with Gregory about we can improve his HE model.StephenB
August 12, 2012
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We’re getting closer, Timaeus, but there are obvious, important concessions you don’t seem to want to give. So I have to repeat myself, which I’ll do because you are such a polite opponent. I said that I’d be willing to rest on the concession: “ID, according to the IDM, including Timaeus, *does not* and even *should not* study human-made things.” Timaeus hasn’t addressed this direct and simple statement. And since he continues to speak for ‘ID people,’ hearing an answer from him might be helpful for other ID proponents. But given his track record, we shouldn't hold our breath. “if we are talking about what ID *currently* means, it’s an account of biological and cosmic origins.” - Timaeus So, I guess I have to fill in the blanks, while Timaeus gives another monologue pro-origins and anti-processes: ““ID social theory” is a misnomer; here I believe Timaeus and I would agree.” But since he doesn’t directly answer, perhaps we’ll never know. “the concern that animates ID is the age-old question: ‘Where do we come from?’” – Timaeus Understood (Phil Johnson says this in ‘Unlocking the Mystery’ video). Be animated by this and go to it, Timaeus! Use your PhD-acquired knowledge in Religious Studies, history of ideas and textual scholarship as your guide on this age-old question. Don’t do science, even social science, because you are not trained for it or competent in it. Just make a new philosophy about ‘design and chance,’ utilising Dembski’s EP, and apply it to ‘where we come from.’ That may not lead to a revolution in itself, but surely it’s worth your protracted and disguised efforts, which I support, even though I think they are misguided and dysanthropic. “You are trying to *change* the meaning of ID, to make it mean something other than what it has in fact meant to everyone who talks about it.” – Timaeus Nobody owns a single definitive meaning of ‘intelligent design.’ There is no ‘Einstein of ID’ or ‘Churchill of ID.’ ID is a collective effort, which makes it sometimes frustrating for critics to challenge because one doesn’t know exactly ‘which ID’ or ‘whose ID’ one is conversing with. One doesn’t need to subscribe to ‘ID’ to accept the existence of ‘intelligent agents.’ One doesn’t need to subscribe to ‘ID’ to engage in pattern recognition or to ‘specify’ something called ‘complexity’ or even ‘simplicity.’ One doesn’t need to subscribe to ‘ID’ to believe that mind has power over matter or that the genetic code contains a ‘language’ (as F. Collins calls it, the ‘language of God’). One is quite free to believe in small-id, but not in Big-ID, as Timaeus hypes, postures and promotes it. I am quite frankly not the ‘neo-Newton of neo-ID.’ And neither does an unpublished internet persona named ‘Timaeus’ in reality speak for or in any way control the meaning of ID, especially to people who do not agree with the political, social or religious ‘renewal’ features of the IDM. Anyone who would believe otherwise (and frankly I imagine and hole that to be no one) would be simply gullible. What we’re dealing with in ID theory is a phenomenon in-action, a movement of people challenging a particular biology and/or cosmogony. Yet, as ID leader Paul Nelson states: “Right now, we’ve got a bag of powerful intuitions, and a handful of notions such as ‘irreducible complexity’ and ‘specified complexity’ – but, as yet, no general theory of biological design.” This is precisely what Steve Fuller has said, wrt no “general theory of intelligent causation.” I’m very sure that Timaeus has no clear theory of intelligent causation in his pocket as he is obviously too busy regurgitating what others in the IDM say. Originality is not the strong point of the historian/textual scholar. “The only theories that can stand as alternatives to ID are theories that explain cosmic or biological origins in non-design terms.” – Timaeus As I’ve said before, and as indicated in the title of this OP, Human Extension is not an ‘alternative to ID.’ It offers an ‘alternative way to look at ID.’ Here Timaeus is putting words into my mouth, to which I have become accustomed. Human Extension studies ‘intelligent agency,’ as ID claims to involve; Human Extension studies teleology, as ID claims to study; Human Extension takes a ‘non-evolutionary’ approach, as ID (sometimes, depending on who you ask) claims to do; and Human Extension involves purpose, meaning and intention, which ID claims t do, but cannot validate on the level of cosmology or biology alone, i.e. without the help of philosophy and theology. Thus, at least on the surface, there would appear to be several over-laps between ID and Human Extension. It is up to UD visitors to acknowledge or reject this. “When another Gregory (who may have been you, though I don’t know that) floated “Human Extension” sorts of notions to the old ASA list” – Timaeus Actually, Timaeus, I didn’t mention Human Extension on the old ASA list. Yes, it was me who posted there, I’ve already admitted that. We’ve spoken privately about this, so there is no need for you to be so deceptive with UD readers. You’ve admitted one of the names you used at ASA (i.e. 'Timaeus'); I used only one name the entire time. It was purposeful that I didn’t mention Human Extension there as I was still working on publishing papers and on my first short Introduction to it, which can be found by following the links on my blog. Indeed, it was like wrestling TEs at ASA with the strong arm behind my back, which for some time I have done here also with IDers, up until now: It doesn’t ‘evolve’; it ‘extends.’ BOOM! “No one was interested in talking about ‘human/social’ studies” – Timaeus Of all the ridiculous things I’ve heard from Timaeus, this one takes the cake. People at ASA were discussing human-social topics all the time! And they surely still are on their members-only forum. The conversations people have about evolution, creation and intelligent design provoke emotion and debate because they are meaningful, because they impact education, language, religion, culture, society, even politics, not just natural science, because human beings are impacted by their views of ‘origins of life’ and also ‘processes’ of change and human development today. If Timaeus is not interested in discussing human-social topics, I suggest he not try to poison the well for others by telling people what they should and shouldn’t be interested in under the umbrella of ‘ID’. “get on with debating the question of substance, i.e., could chance and necessity alone have produced life, species, and man?” - Timaeus So get on with debating it then, Mr. Canadian culture warrior. I’ll offer my personal answer and then get out of the way: Chance and necessity directed by God the Creator produced life, species and man. It happened by (the ‘process’ known as) evolution, even if not entirely of the ‘Darwinian’ variety, and it is continually being studied and explored by many scientists, including biologists and cosmologists, not all of whom are ‘enemies’ in the culture war that the IDM, according to Timaeus, is engaging. As with Rev. Dr. Michael Heller (cosmologist, philosopher, priest), “I don't see any conflict between chance events and God's planning of the universe.” “Nobody in the debate is talking about ‘the process of designing’.” – Timaeus Yes, exactly. Instead, they’re talking about evolutionary processes and creation processes. IDM-ID is the only position that methodologically *bans* discussion of ‘(designing) processes.’ Exploring designers and design processes is what Human Extension enables and what IDM-ID disallows. Speaking the truth will set us free.Gregory
August 12, 2012
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Gregory (109): Your reply is improved in tone, but I can see we aren't going to get anywhere on the contents. You referred to the joint subject of "evolution, creation, and intelligent design." I pointed out that public discussion of this joint subject is always about origins. You are denying that this is the case. You also continue to repeat your assertion that I am imposing some private or personal understanding of ID of my own and am not taking into account the views of others who have discussed these questions. This should not be a question of competing wills -- your definition vs. mine. What ID means should be an empirical question. And I have no difficulty in showing that my understanding is not idiosyncratic, is not some private definition of ID that I have latched onto. I can point out endless examples of public confirmation of my usage. For starters: 1. The Dover Trial was about ID as a theory of biological origins. 2. BioLogos -- *Bio*-Logos, not *Socio*-Logos -- is about biological (and to some extent cosmic) origins. 3. Uncommon Descent -- this site -- is about biological (and to some extent cosmic) origins. 4. The articles and podcasts on the Discovery site are about biological and cosmic origins. 5. The attacks on ID at TalkOrigins and Panda's Thumb are about biological (and sometimes cosmic) origins. 6. The attacks on ID on various personal blogs -- Moran, Rosenhouse, Myers, Shallit, etc. -- are on biological (sometimes also cosmic) origins. 7. The classic 8-person debate between Phil Johnson, William Buckley, Michael Behe, and David Berlinski against Eugenie Scott, Ken Miller, Michael Ruse, and Barry Lynn -- which you can watch on Telic Thoughts (another site about biological and cosmic origins) -- was all about biological origins. 8. The debate at Biola University between Arthur Hunt and Steve Matheson, on one side, and Steve Meyer, on the other, was about biological origins. 9. The debate that was supposed to happen between Randy Isaac and Darrel Falk, on the one hand, and Doug Axe and Steve Meyer, on the other hand, but was cancelled, was about biological origins. 10. The recent conference at Wheaton, in which several ID people were matched up against several TE/EC people, was about biological origins. 11. An endless number of stage, radio, and television debates, featuring Behe, Meyer, Dembski, Wells and others against Barr, Lamoureux, Shermer, Prothero, etc., many of which are available on YouTube etc., have been about biological (and sometimes also cosmic) origins. 12. The major dust-up between David Berlinski and the leading lights of modern evolutionary biology, in the pages of Commentary (now reprinted in *The Deniable Darwin*) was about biological and cosmic origins, as was Berlinski's *The Devil's Delusion*, a reply to the New Atheists. 13. The works of the theistic evolutionists -- individual books by Robert Russell, Ken Miller, Francis Collins, Denis Alexander, Denis Lamoureux, etc., plus the collection *Perspectives on an Evolving Creation* -- are about biological or cosmic origins. 14. The articles on "creation, evolution and ID" or "creation, evolution and design" published in the ASA journal -- the main organ of discussion for Protestant evangelical scientists in the USA -- are about biological or cosmic origins. 15. The endless parade of vindictive reviews on Amazon.com against the books of Meyer, Dembski, Wells, Behe, etc. is directed against the views of ID proponents on biological and/or cosmic origins. Similarly, the people responsible for the lies and character assassinations in Wikipedia understand ID in this way. 16. The standard Ruse/Dembski collection, *Debating Design*, is about biological and cosmic origins. 17. The Dembski collection, *Uncommon Dissent*, is about biological and cosmic origins. 18. Gonzalez's firing was due to his daring to publish his views on cosmic origins. 19. The NCSE has gone steadily after ID as a theory of biological origins. The NABT, the AAS and other scientific and educational bodies who have made public statements on ID have understood it to be a theory of biological origins. "Project Steve" understands ID to be a theory of biological origins. 20. When another Gregory (who may have been you, though I don't know that) floated "Human Extension" sorts of notions to the old ASA list -- which consisted mostly of Christian scientists, primarily TE/EC people but a few ID-sympathetic people -- those notions went over like a lead balloon. No one was interested in talking about "human/social" studies, no matter how fiercely this Gregory pressed his interest in that area. They all wanted to talk about TE/EC vs. ID on biology/cosmology or TE/EC vs. YEC on biology/cosmology. I could go on and on, Gregory, but there is no point in beating a dead horse. The fact is that if we are talking about what ID *currently* means, it's an account of biological and cosmic origins. This has been true since the days of Thaxton and Johnson, and continues to be so today. And the debating partners of ID -- the New Atheists, the neo-Darwinian biologists, BioLogos, the ASA-TEs, the YECs, the OECs, etc. -- are equally preoccupied by biological and/or cosmic origins. Nobody in the debate is talking about "the process of designing" or "human extension" etc. You are trying to *change* the meaning of ID, to make it mean something other than what it has in fact meant to everyone who talks about it. You want it to be about something different than what it is in fact about. But it is not going to change what it is about, because the concern that animates ID is the age-old question: "Where do we come from?" That question goes back to the Bible, the ancient Greeks, and other ancient traditions. It is a continual preoccupation of thoughtful human beings. It was being asked long before there were "social/human sciences" such as sociology or anthropology. This being the case, no theory in the "social/human sciences" -- whether Human Extension or anything else -- can stand as an alternative to ID. The only theories that can stand as alternatives to ID are theories that explain cosmic or biological origins in non-design terms. Human Extension is not such a theory (or account, or perspective, or explanation, or whatever you wish to call it). In conclusion, Human Extension, however great its value may be as a way of understanding a number of social matters, is not now, and never will be, an alternative to ID. It simply is not about the same subject-matter as ID. This will be acknowledged as true by anyone who thinks that well-established terms should be employed to mean what they have been consistently used to mean, rather than redefined to harmonize with the academic projects of people who would like them to mean something else. Since I sense that you are inflexible on this subject, i.e., that you will never alter your usage to conform to that of everyone in the world who is informed on the subject of ID, I am going to drop out of the discussion at this point. A quarrel over terminology is a waste of time. You can go on using "ID" with your own private meaning, and continue to be misunderstood by everyone, necessitating constant lengthy defenses of your idiosyncratic way of speaking; I will continue to use ID in its publically recognizable sense, because using the publically recognizable sense of the word saves endless hours of quarrelling over definitions, and allows people to get on with debating the question of substance, i.e., could chance and necessity alone have produced life, species, and man?Timaeus
August 11, 2012
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Timaeus, Your latest attempt @107 to engage Gregory in a rational discussion did not go unnoticed. It was an impressive display of intellectual clarity and an admirable exercise in self control. I anticipated the result, but the effort was noble.StephenB
August 11, 2012
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Correction: "Again, IDM-ID is not relevant *when speaking about processes* b/c it chooses to focus on origins rather than on processes."Gregory
August 11, 2012
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“a. The inconsistency is only apparent, and here is why…” “the debate over ‘evolution, creation and intelligent design’ is *entirely about biological and cosmic origins*” – Timaeus I disagree with the term ‘entirely.’ What you call ‘the debate’ is partly about biological and cosmic origins, but not entirely. And for some people, it is far from being ‘entirely’ about that. Even to say ‘mainly,’ instead of 'entirely,' would be a stretch. 'Sometimes' would be more accurate. For some people, evolution, creation and intelligent design are about ‘processes’ of change (or their absence, in the case of IDM-ID). For example, when people speak of ‘creative evolution’ (Bergson), ‘co-creation’ and ‘co-creators,’ or more recently the term ‘evolving creation’ (literature about which Ted Davis confirmed you said you had read only a little, when you came to participate at ASA), the focus is more on processes than origins. Even when people speak about a ‘creative process,’ this can be seen as involved with discussions of ‘evolution and creation,’ especially when linked with fields such as evolutionary psychology, neo-evolutionary anthropology and evolutionary economics. Again, ID is not relevant b/c it focuses on origins rather than processes. Creation, as in the Judeo-Christian meaning, certainly cannot be limited just to cosmogony and palaeobiology or to ‘origins-alone,’ but covers all aspects of the created world, including human beings. To suggest that conversations involving evolution, creation and intelligent design are ‘entirely’ about *origins* is rather Timaeus’ personal attempt to frame the discourse according to his own preferred terms, which other people, like myself, do not accept and need not agree to. We can accept it as one opinion, but not as an authority worth following, if we disagree with his chosen terms. That is why what Timaeus views as ‘inconsistency’ in this case is actually just someone disagreeing with Timaeus’ perception of intelligent design theory in relation to creation and evolution. Human Extension is indeed about ‘origins,’ but it is also about (non-evolutionary) ‘processes’ of change, based on choices made and enacted by intelligent agents, i.e. human beings. It is this ‘non-evolutionary’ feature of Human Extension that should most attract and intrigue ID proponents. Indeed, if one of the goals of the IDM is to ‘shrink’ evolutionary theory in how it is perceived by the public, then speaking of Human Extension instead of 'technological or social evolution' could be one of the most significant developments in quite some time. Instead of asking about ‘unevolvability,’ or ‘the edge of evolution,’ as M. Behe has done, my approach is to ask about “things that don’t ‘evolve’,”… and that are rather best said to ‘extend’. Two axioms given above outline this approach. “‘Human Extension’ is about the origin of human things, things designed, created, built, arranged, etc. by human beings for human purposes.” – Timaeus Yes, though sometimes we create and build things for non-human purposes, e.g. to protect the ecosphere or to heal an animal or plant. Human Extension offers “an alternative way to look at ID” because it studies *actual* intelligent agents, while IDM-ID either just suggests (cf. ‘implications’) that such ‘intelligent agents’ exist (‘transcendental designers,’ God or aliens) or draws analogies to them (‘mundane designers,’ i.e. human beings). But IDM-ID does not study ‘designing processes’ or who or what the ‘designer(s)’ is/are ‘as designer(s).’ It is, as repeated regularly here, focused on the ontology (i.e. mere existence) of 'design in nature,' not in the how, where, when, or who involved. Again, I think the following is a clear and concise way to say it, expressed in a respectful tone with the goal of being fair and accurate about IDM-ID theory: “Intelligent design theory is a theory that posits ‘design’ where the ‘designer’ of the ‘design’ *cannot* be studied. In cases where the designer of a design *can* be studied, intelligent design theory does not apply.” Other than Joe, does anyone else have a view about this? In a nutshell, this is a major feature to what distinguishes Human Extension and IDM-ID. “what is the answer of ‘Human Extension’ to the question of the origin of man?” … “since Human Extension *is not trying to answer the question of the origin of man*, how is it an ‘alternative’ to ID, creationism, neo-Darwinism, and theistic evolutionism, all of which *are* trying to answer that question?” – Timaeus Human Extension does not provide an answer to questions about the origin(s) of man(kind). However, I’m not against scholars and scientists in other fields, such as palaeontologists, palaeobiologists, et al. employing the term ‘extension’ with a fresh view in regard to non-human-made things, such as the origin of man. The term ‘extension’ is already employed in mathematics, physics, psychology, anthropology, economics and communications, among other fields, so it has acquired ‘capital’ in terms of intellectual currency. If a palaeoneuro-scientist wanted to claim that ‘consciousness’ can be thought to have ‘extended’ from the actions of a (obviously non-human) ‘intelligent agent,’ e.g. that the imago Dei extends from God’s will in a way that can be scientifically, philosophically and theologically explored, I would not be in a position to stop them. Indeed, philosophers David Chalmers and Andy Clark have already developed the idea of the ‘Extended Mind.’ People of faith, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Baha’i or Native American, et al. will hold their spiritual views of ‘the origin of man’ not based mainly on natural scientific theories of biology or genomics, but in light of their religion and theology. [As an aside, I also really don’t see how it is possible to jump from origins of life, to origins of biological information, to origin(s) of man, as Timaeus does, *without* getting ID’s hands dirty in making an official claim about the Age of Earth. It seems to be a problem for the DI, mainly tied with funding and networking (i.e. socio-economics), more than any scientific reasons.] I am willing to rest on the clarification that IDM-ID is focussed mainly on cosmological and biological [and human] origins and that ID, according to the IDM, including Timaeus, *does not* and even *should not* study human-made things. As someone who’s seen the operation from the inside, I conclude that the DI (specifically John G. West) has given up on making a theory of intelligent design “in the Humanities and Social Sciences” from the closing of that section in the DI’s summer program. Now they are interested in focussing more on ‘science in society’ (for which I applaud them) than in trying to validate M. Behe’s claim that “ID has implications for all humane studies” (1999). That is, “ID social theory” is a misnomer; here I believe Timaeus and I would agree. This is where Human Extension is an option that ID proponents might wish to consider. “ID people should adopt Human Extension as a better, wiser, and more theoretically sophisticated alternative to ID.” – Timaeus Thanks for the backhanded endorsement, Timaeus! Yes, when it comes to studying (the identity of) intelligent agents and designing and creative processes, I believe Human Extension is better ‘by design’ than IDM-ID. As Timaeus wrote above #6: “Their [‘ID peoples’] starting point is the same as his [Gregory’s] — human exceptionality, human intentionality, and the ability of human beings to ‘extend’ themselves in various ways. Their idea of ‘design’ comes out of that matrix of characterizations.” As Jon Garvey wrote in #5: “if ‘extension’ took off in the human sciences, people would have an alternative model for progress in design and teleology.” We shall see what the future holds…Gregory
August 11, 2012
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GS: Pardon, but usage is always pivotal in determining meaning of a word. Artifact is being used in the sense of result of a technique -- observe the Gk roots -- as applied through knowledgeable and skilled purposeful choice contingency. If you wish, go back to Plato's Technike [sp?] in The Laws, Bk X. That is, for 2350 years, the context of usage of the terms and ideas in view has been broader than human. And, when we see beavers building gravity and arch dams responsive to stream-flow regime, that should give us a clue that art in the relevant sense is not merely human. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2012
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Gregory: I'm going to take one last shot at getting you to see something. But before I take it, I want to make clear my motives, since in the past you have often accused me of being out to get you, or of desiring to put you down, or of having motives of self-aggrandizement. So please listen to this preamble. 1. I am not trying to embarrass you. 2. I am not trying to prove that I am smarter than you. 3. I am not questioning your competence in your own field. 4. I am not out to attack Human Extension as an area of academic investigation. What I am trying to do is to show you that what you have argued here is *internally incoherent*. And I am trying to show this using your own statements, examined in the light of basic logic. I assume that you accept the authority of basic logic -- nothing tricky, no weird modern academic forms of logic that only specialists have heard of, just garden-variety logic such as was explicated by Aristotle and has been employed by just about everyone since (Aquinas, Hobbes, Hume, Mill, lawyers, doctors, scientists, engineers, historians, sensible parents, intelligent citizens, successful businessmen, and so on). I intend to set forth this argument in good faith, with proper reasoning, and without ad hominem remarks. I therefore think it reasonable that, if you reply, you reply in good faith, with proper reasoning, and without ad hominem remarks. By asking to you respond "in good faith," I mean that if you truly, in your heart of hearts, after listening to my argument, see the apparent internal inconsistency I am pointing to, you should not angrily deny it, or accuse me of bad motives, but should address it, by responding either: a. "The inconsistency is only apparent, and here is why ..." or b. "The inconsistency is real; I clearly need to do more work on my argument; thank you for pointing this out, and I'll get back to you when I've fixed things up." Can you do this, Gregory? Can you converse in this way with me? Without rancor, without anger, without automatic defensiveness in the face of politely expressed criticism? If so, then let us proceed. Let's start with a quotation from one of your newest posts. I could have picked other quotations with similar contents, but this one will do just fine: "The fact is, for many people it is entirely new to imagine any possible alternative to ‘evolution, creation and intelligent design’ in their current forms. For many people, either evolution, creation OR ID already dominates their vision, such that alternatives are deemed unwelcome at the start." Gregory, when people debate about "evolution, creation, and intelligent design" -- whether the debate is in a courtroom in Dover, on blog sites, at a conference at Wheaton, on radio talk shows, or somewhere else -- what are they debating about? I think you will agree that they are debating about *origins* -- sometimes both biological and cosmic, and certainly biological. We can agree on this, can we not? This is what the public debate has been about, since Darwin. It's what BioLogos is about. It's what Discovery is about. It's what the books of Dawkins and Coyne and Miller and Collins and Ayala are about. I'm going to assume that you agree with me that this is what most people have in mind when they talk about this cluster of terms. Now, take the origin of man, or the origin of species, or the origin of the first life. You have already indicated that you personally are not interested in speculating or debating about these things. You have also already indicated that "Human Extension" is not about "origins" in the sense of "How did the first life come to be?" or "How did various species emerge?" or "Where did man come from?" You have indicated that "Human Extension" is about the origin of human things, things designed, created, built, arranged, etc. by human beings for human purposes. I trust that you are not going to make me dig through your recent posts and quote you to prove that you have said this. Now, let's take a look at the quoted paragraph above. You said: "for many people it is entirely new to imagine any possible alternative to ‘evolution, creation and intelligent design’ in their current forms" And the context of the remark, both within the post, and within the current discussion over your column, makes clear that you regard "Human Extension" as "a possible alternative to evolution, creation and intelligent design in their current forms." Now, I ask you, Gregory: If Human Extension has *nothing to do with biological and cosmic origins*, whereas the debate over "evolution, creation and intelligent design" is *entirely about biological and cosmic origins*, how can Human Extension be an "alternative" to those other accounts? When we speak of "alternatives," we normally mean something that could replace something else in the service of the same end, e.g., we could use a bicycle rather than a car to get to work. We don't normally speak of "alternatives" to two entirely different ends. For example, if I asked you what "alternative" to a plane flight you have if you want to get home from Europe to Canada (I believe you have said you teach in Europe but are originally from Canada, but correct me if I'm wrong), you might say: "I could take a boat" or "I could take a dirigible" or even "I'm a very strong swimmer, so I could put on my bathing suit and start stroking." You would not offer, as an alternative means of getting home to Canada, "I'll stay in Europe and tour ancient castles and museums instead." That would not be an alternative to get home to Canada; it would be an entirely different activity, guided by an entirely different goal. So when we consider, say, the origin of man, we have ID people saying, "Man could not have come into being by random mutations and natural selection alone; some design must have been involved"; and we have creationists saying, "Man did not come into being by any evolutionary process, but was created directly by God"; and we have classic neo-Darwinists saying, "Man emerged from a process of random mutations and natural selection; there is no need to postulate any planning or guidance beyond this"; and we have theistic evolutionist biologists at BioLogos saying, "Man emerged from a process of random mutations plus natural selection; there is no need to postulate any planning or guidance beyond this; and oh, yeah, God's providence was involved somehow, too." Now, Gregory, what is the answer of "Human Extension" to the question of the origin of man? According to your own words (not mine, nor anyone else's here), it does not have an answer to that question, because it does not even ask that question. It is not its *purpose* to answer that question. So, since Human Extension *is not trying to answer the question of the origin of man*, how is it an "alternative" to ID, creationism, neo-Darwinism, and theistic evolutionism, all of which *are* trying to answer that question? If you think about it clearly, you will see that Human Extension is not an "alternative" to these positions; it is a completely different kind of investigation, concerned with a different set of questions. Yet you keep trying to suggest that ID people should adopt Human Extension as a better, wiser, and more theoretically sophisticated alternative to ID. Can you not see that what you are saying at least *seems* to be completely self-contradictory? Can you not see why so many of us here are utterly confused about exactly what you want us to do with Human Extension, and are wondering why you keep juxtaposing it with ID? Can you not see why we are scratching our heads trying to figure out how the writings of Marshall McLuhan and others you have mentioned could provide an "alternative" method of answering the questions that Ann Gauger and Doug Axe and Michael Behe are asking? If I have been able to reach you, Gregory, and if you now understand what I and others here have been trying to get you to see, you will perhaps wish to reformulate your position so that it does not contain this (real or apparent) internal incoherence. Remember, Gregory, I am not saying that Human Extension is false. I am not saying it is worthless. I am not saying that it should not be studied or written about. I am saying that I cannot imagine how it provides an alternative to ID, which is a position on origins, when it does not even *try* to answer questions of origins.Timaeus
August 11, 2012
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Here’s the crux: Intelligent design theory is a theory that posits ‘design’ where the ‘designer’ of the ‘design’ *cannot* be studied. In cases where the designer of a design *can* be studied, intelligent design theory does not apply.
I disagree. And I will add it's as if you are in your own little world and have strawmen at your disposal. Good luck with that...Joe
August 10, 2012
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Here’s the crux: Intelligent design theory is a theory that posits ‘design’ where the ‘designer’ of the ‘design’ *cannot* be studied. In cases where the designer of a design *can* be studied, intelligent design theory does not apply. Would anyone disagree with this short definition of IDM-ID (i.e. ‘intelligent design’ as the Discovery Institute currently envisions it)? “How can one ‘use’ human made things as ‘analogies’ without studying them?” – StephenB Yes, exactly!!! That’s the key to unlocking the mystery of ID’s hands-off, Platonic, detached, disembodied, analogistic approach to ‘designer(s)/Designer(s)’ and ‘design process’ (at least as it is being defended here by the likes of ‘Timaeus’). Studying human-made things and how they actually are/were ‘designed’ and made/created/built/constructed/etc. is an alternative to IDM-ID. This is not an ‘absence of evidence’ topic, but a ‘presence of evidence’ situation where Human Extension can “go where no IDer has gone before.” It can and does study ‘designs’ and ‘creations,’ things that human beings do and make. To suggest that human beings are not ‘designers’ (which most are not prepared to do, even if it differs from IDM-ID proper) would be to break the obvious argument to analogy with human-designs currently present and significant in IDM-ID. So, indeed, IDM-ID should embrace Human Extension as both an opponent of universal evolutionism and as an approach that can help to learn more about the kinds of (human-made) ‘designs’ upon which IDM-IDs analogies are founded. Why would it not want to call its enemies’ enemy its friend? If human beings are ‘designers,’ if they/we are the ‘intelligent causers,’ the ‘intelligent agents’ that IDM-ID bases its analogies on, then does it not make complete sense that we can and should study their/our ‘designing processes’ and the actualisation of these ‘designs’? This is best expressed in the phrase by electronic-age visionary Marshall McLuhan: “the extensions of man.” No ID leader comes close in significance, now or in the future, to McLuhan. If the 'extensions of man' are thought not to have anything to do with ID (as Timaeus stresses in his repetitive negativity), then that’s a great loss for IDM-ID and for all supporters of ID. This is where Timaeus’ nauseously repeated question has no importance: “Could chance do it or couldn’t it?” When it comes to human-made things, simply said, ‘chance doesn’t do it!’ Thus, the entire reason d’être of the ‘chance vs. design’ dichotomy breaks down at this point, in this non-naturalistic realm. Chance is largely off the table for the vast majority of human artefacts. Note please though that I have never said Human Extension is ‘real ID’ according to the IDM’s (and certainly not to Timaeus’ self-admittedly narrow) meaning of ID. I’ve said openly that it is an 'alternative way to look at ID' that doesn’t fit within the IDM. Nevertheless, it is important in the study of 'intelligent agents' and 'purposeful design,' which is likely closer to the hearts of most IDers in the long run than simply being able to call oneself a greater 'naturalist' than Darwin.Gregory
August 10, 2012
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Return to an alternative way to look at ID – Human Extension. “Gregory, I appreciate your willingness to articulate your vision in somewhat more practical terms. You have provided what seems to be an accurate representation of the human-extension process.” (#50) / “You have yet to present the step-by-step, Human Extension process and show how it indicates that a human artifact was made.” – StephenB (#80) The main point of Human Extension, StephenB, is to study how, when, where, and why questions of extension (read: the extension of designs), instead of the single ‘that’ question of IDM-ID. That is an alternative way to look at ‘intelligent design’ (ID); not just origins, but also processes. Such a way includes a ‘general theory of causation,’ focussing on more than only the ontology (existence) of ‘design,’ but also on the epistemology, ethics and politics of ‘design,’ i.e. when it comes to human beings, to us. I am pleased that you are leaving open the possibility that I have already done what you are imagining (cf. links above) and will elaborate on it further in my next book. The fact is, for many people it is entirely new to imagine any possible alternative to ‘evolution, creation and intelligent design’ in their currents forms. For many people, either evolution, creation OR ID already dominates their vision, such that alternatives are deemed unwelcome at the start. That is why I linked to my presentation here: The Courage of Extending Humanity - TEDxLCC although no one has yet commented on it. So a large part of my work now is simply to introduce people to Human Extension (it is not a ‘theory’ but rather a ‘methodology’). That was the main goal of this thread “Human Extension: an alternative way to look at ID,” rather than simply to provide an apologetics for social sciences. I’m sorry to nullasalus if that’s what he thought this thread is about, when my intention all along, worth ‘coming out of the closet’ for, was to show this HEM approach that I’ve been working on ‘secretly’ for over a decade. Those interested can learn more about my work and views here: www.humanextension.wordpress.com It should be clear by now that what is contended is that ‘artifacts’ are *by definition* human-made. Thus, the sandcastle example StephenB provided in #98 is a good one. StephenB asked: “How does one study the designer of a [hypothetical] sand castle after the fact of design?” I replied: “Go and speak to him or her [i.e. who built it]. If they’re not around, ask their relatives. Ask the lifeguard who saw them building it. Ask passersby on the beach while the sand-castling was going on. Ask journalists’ questions to people working in the shop nearby. There’s lots of ways to do this.” StephenB responded: “Speak to whom? How do you know who designed the sand castle? How do you know a lifeguard was there to observe the event?” It is only fair to allow me to explain how Human Extension methodology would apply to your hypothetical situation. First, the answer is that someone, a person, a human being (child, teenager or adult) designed and built the sandcastle. We are agreed on that, right? We know of no other creatures that do this. If it was actually built by an alien (E.T.), a very clever gopher or an aardvark, then the sandcastle has got me fooled. Simply put: If you want to study the designer, the first necessity is that you acknowledge that he or she (or it!?) actually exists. Don’t be coy about whether there may or may not have been a designer. Have some courage to face the reality that there was a designer who can be discussed. Next, look for clues of all the possible ‘extensions’ of the sandcastle from a (spatially & temporally) ‘reverse perspective.’ When did it happen? How long ago would it have been started? What would have been required to build it? How long would it have taken to build (to saying nothing of the designing process)? To discover this we could speak to other people who have built sandcastles of a similar type to this one or we could speak with sandcastle contest judges or people who have watched others build sandcastles. We could even attempt to duplicate the sandcastle building process ourselves and see how it was done. There is no lack of possible evidence here in contrast to how the ‘origin of biological information’ (however it happened) lacks much evidence. On the very specific question of ‘who dunnit,’ again we have many possible options, some of which I wrote about already above. Are there any video cameras on the street where people park their cars that match the time frame we’ve identified? Are there any people remaining on the beach that might have been there when the sandcastle was built who might have been eye-witnesses? What about a beach regular, who visits on a daily basis? Etc. etc. – use your own imagination. Again, please note this carefully; when it comes to human-made things, i.e. to artifacts in human history, the creation of many of them is documented, recorded and/or repeated, duplicated or copied in various circumstances and in multiple ways. This topic and the fields that study it are not nearly as mysterious as the highly speculative field of OoL. Speaking about ‘detective’ work, we can do much more of it if we already have an idea of what similar ‘designers’ of the artifact in question look like as well as 'designs' of similar artifacts. Do you not agree with this simple and harmless observation, StephenB? What is important here is that we *can* study the origin and design and/or building processes of human-made things. This is what gives Human Extension greater explanatory power than IDM-ID. As of yet, nobody here has denied that an approach which *can* study designers and design processes has more explanatory power than an approach which doesn’t. And I really don’t think that it is deniable. People here have instead repeatedly said (and trust me, folks, I have heard you) that is not IDM-ID’s main focus (but, wink; it could be also if it wanted to be!). This is precisely how Human Extension offers an *alternative* way to look at things that are designed and at the intelligence(s) behind the designs. Trying to elevate and widen the IDM’s discourse by saying ID is about the ‘most important things,’ i.e. life, meaning and purpose itself seems merely to be a covering-attempt to give more explanatory power to ID theories than it actually possesses without currently studying designers/Designers and design processes. Then again, some people have said ID is a narrow and very limited theory, so there still seems to be controversy about this within the 'shared ID tent.'Gregory
August 10, 2012
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Optimus (102): "Also I feel compelled to point out that ID doesn’t prohibit questions about the designer (as if it’s some sort of crime), but it simply concerns itself with the first-order question of whether or not something was designed in the first place." Exactly right. No one in ID is forbidding anyone, anywhere, from talking about designers or "designing activity" -- if they can get hold of information about that. But of course, as StephenB has pointed out with his examples, information of that sort from the pre-Cambrian period, and from all geological periods prior to our own, is unavailable. So we have to talk about the design without any data about the designer. That bothers Gregory, for some inexplicable reason. But it shouldn't bother him any more than it bothers some archaeologist who digs up a city which seems to connect with no known historical people, language, religion, culture, etc. Such an archaeologist, though knowing literally nothing about the people who built the city, can yet recognize the design features of the city, and consequently can show that it did not arise out of random motions of the earth, shuffling stones together, but from the action of intelligent agents. Is that enough to identify the designer? No. Is it enough to show that there was a designer? Yes. And Gregory seems constitutionally incapable of grasping that this is the *only* scientific question on the table between Dawkins etc. and the ID people. He supposes, or perhaps wants, ID to be about more than that. But it isn't. Of course, there is nothing to stop the archaeologist from carrying on to try to discover more about the human side of the people who built the city. Nobody in the ID movement forbids or even disapproves of that. But if his only goal was to show that the city was designed, rather than the product of chance, he doesn't need to carry on to that second step. It is the limited goal of ID that frustrates Gregory no end. He cannot imagine setting himself such a limited goal, and therefore cannot imagine that anyone else would, either. But he is wrong. Not everyone strives to come up with a Theory of Everything. Some are happy just to establish one thing -- if that thing is important enough. And if there was ever an important truth, "Living systems are not the product of chance, but were designed; man was not the product of chance, but was designed," certainly qualifies as such a truth. The person who could establish that truth would be as great a benefactor of the human race as the inventor of the refrigerator, the automobile, penicillin, etc.Timaeus
August 1, 2012
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@ Gregory Concerning #92, I am in no way being contradictory or devious. I suggest that your reading comprehension is woefully underdeveloped. I shall explain again, though you will likely persist in seemingly intentionally misunderstanding me. The focus of Intelligent Design is to address the question, "Can at least some features of the observable universe (incl. biological systems) best be explained by reference to intelligent agency (as opposed to chaos and necessity)?" Human design is NOT the main focus of ID. Humans clearly cannot be responsible for the origin of the universe and the life that occupies it (unless you fancy all those time travel speculations). When I say that ID methodology can be applied to objects of either human or nonhuman origin, this means that we can look at ANY object and ask whether or not it contains complex, functionally specified information; mechanical complexity (incl. IC); or arrangements of matter not known in our experience to be produced by unintelligent processes. Those questions and observations can be made regardless of who made an object. It can apply to human-made objects, but that is not its focus. The reason ID is relevant and compelling is that legions of otherwise rational, educated human beings are stubbornly devoted to promoting the pseudoscientific idea that everything is the product of mindless forces. When Richard Dawkins and co. begin insisting that cars, coffee makers, and smartphones are the product of evolution, then maybe ID's focus will shift to human design. Until then its focus remains on one the most profound questions anyone can ask, namely, "where do we (and the universe) come from?" @ Lastyearon Function is helpful in determing design, but not absolutely necessary. I believe someone (maybe kairosfocus) made mention of the antikythera mechanism. For a long time no one knew the function of said object, but I would be quite surprised if anyone argued against its status as a designed object solely on that basis. When you open the hood of your car, do you know the function of every part that you see? Unless you're a mechanic, then almost certainly not. Still the inference of design is still entirely valid. That having been said, we do know about the functions of many of the PARTS of life - e.g. the proteins involved in the blood clotting cascade, proteins involved in immune response, larger organs like the brain, heart, lungs, digestive tract, muscles, skeletal system, etc. Do we know the function of life as a whole? Probably not, but it's hard to see how that invalidates the design inference. Also I feel compelled to point out that ID doesn't prohibit questions about the designer (as if it's some sort of crime), but it simply concerns itself with the first-order question of whether or not something was designed in the first place.Optimus
July 31, 2012
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Gregory --"I remember seeing a film exactly about how ancient peoples made hunters’ spears, the art duplicated by an archaeologist." **Excellent! Give me the step-by-step process by which ancient hunters constructed their spears and tell me precisely what methodology the archeologist used to attain that information. --"Go and speak to him or her." (to the designer to ask how the sand castle was designed) **Speak to whom? How do you know who designed the sand castle? How do you know a lifeguard was there to observe the event? --"Because human-made things are not studied by IDM-ID; they are just used as analogies (mousetrap, Easter Island, Mt. Rushmore, etc.)." **How can one "use" human made things as "analogies" without studying them? --“All I hear to the contrary is ‘we refuse to discuss a context in which designers and design processes can be studied’”. – Gregory **Can you think of anyone who said anything even close to that? Give me a name and a quote. I, for one, would love to know how we could study the design processes of the past. I suspect that what you heard was something like this: "We are not in a position to discuss the identity of the designer or the processes used since, in spite of our intense curiosity about the matter, our methodology is simply not developed to the point that we can speak to those questions. We welcome the arrival of another ID genius who will take us down that road by conceiving a paradigm that will bring that kind of a information within our reach. Meanwhile, we are limited to the process of design detection." What likely happened is that, after he told you that about 25 times and, after you ignored him 25 times, he finally resolved never to discuss the matter with you again. "I’m giving you reasons to discuss the context in which designers and design processes actually *can* be (and are) studied.This re-education is an on-going process. It differs from IDM-ID’s approach to ‘design’ and ‘intelligence’. Exploring designers and design processes is what Human Extension enables and what IDM-ID disallows. **But I have already asked you for the Human Extension process and you could not provide one. "Why reduce the explanatory power of your theory/methodology by focussing only on ‘after the fact’ designs? Is this the ‘historical science’ defence? Or is it only because the main focus of IDM-ID is ‘non-human designers’ instead of actual, observable designers?" **How does one observe the designer of a DNA molecule or the process the designer used to produce it?StephenB
July 31, 2012
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Dear Gregory- In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY possible way to make ANY scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. Intelligent Design is not about that but that does not mean no one can have a go at it. As I have said- figuring out how the ancients did some of the things they did is difficult enough, and we should have their capabilities. OTOH designing living organisms seems to be beyond our capabilty, as is designing a solar system, etc. It would be like giving a laptop to an Amazonian tribe who has never seen any technology and asking them to figure it out- who did it, what it is, how they did it, etc. Intelligent Design is step 1- detection and study of design in nature. First things first. And as our knowledge and technological capabilities expand, we will figure out more of the hows and who. But as I said we are still stuck on how the ancients did what they did. But you and yours can go on ahead and tell us what you find. I say a targeted search/ genetic algorithm/ genetic programming is the how, as in how are genetic changes and molecular functions managed. But that is once we have organisms. However that could also be how they were originated- a targeted search. You have an desired output X, and you provide a starting point, resources and programming.Joe
July 31, 2012
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"If an archeologist can detect design in an ancient hunter’s spear, why can he not analyze the spear’s construction?" - StephenB Well, he OR SHE can, actually. That is part of archaeology; learning the 'design processes' involved in making the artifacts that archaeologists study. I remember seeing a film exactly about how ancient peoples made hunters' spears, the art duplicated by an archaeologist. "How does one study the designer of a sand castle after the fact of design?" - StephenB Go and speak to him or her. If they're not around, ask their relatives. Ask the lifeguard who saw them building it. Ask passersby on the beach while the sand-castling was going on. Ask journalists' questions to people working in the shop nearby. There's lots of ways to do this. "Why do you say that?" - StephenB Because human-made things are not studied by IDM-ID; they are just used as analogies (mousetrap, Easter Island, Mt. Rushmore, etc.). Think of 10 human-made things, of different varieties. How many are actually studied in depth by Behe, Dembski, Meyer, et al.? I am offering an alternative way to study 'design' + 'intelligence.' “All I hear to the contrary is 'we refuse to discuss a context in which designers and design processes can be studied'”. - Gregory "Where did you hear that?" - StephenB It is audible and obvious almost everywhere in the IDM. I'm giving you reasons to discuss the context in which designers and design processes actually *can* be (and are) studied. This re-education is an on-going process. It differs from IDM-ID's approach to 'design' and 'intelligence'. Exploring designers and design processes is what Human Extension enables and what IDM-ID disallows. "ID studies the effects of design after the fact." - StephenB So, then are you saying that ID actually *cannot* study artifacts because the design process of making artifacts *can* be studied, just not by ID theory? Only 'after the fact' makes no sense when 'before, during and after the fact' it is possible to study design and designing, i.e. when it comes to human designers. Why reduce the explanatory power of your theory/methodology by focussing only on 'after the fact' designs? Is this the 'historical science' defence? Or is it only because the main focus of IDM-ID is 'non-human designers' instead of actual, observable designers?Gregory
July 31, 2012
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"Why the lack of power in IDM-ID to analyse design processes? Perhaps I can provide a thought stimulator for you. If an archeologist can detect design in an ancient hunter's spear, why can he not analyze the spear's construction? "Artifacts are ‘designed’ by ‘designers’ who can be studied." *Let's try another thought stimulator. How does one study the designer of a sand castle after the fact of design? "You claim IDM-ID “can be applied to any artifact.” I say it can’t, based on its current priorities." Why do you say that? Or, am I supposed to guess about your reasons. "All I hear to the contrary is “we refuse to discuss a context in which designers and design processes can be studied”. Where did you hear that? Or, am I supposed to guess again. "But people already study design processes and designers. So, why can’t IDM-ID?" Insofar as people study design processes and designers, they do it before the fact and during the fact. ID studies the effects of design after the fact. Can you grasp the difference? Oh my heavens! I just helped him with the first two questions. That's OK, though. I am an easy grader.StephenB
July 31, 2012
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Gregory wrote: "Joe says, “Intelligent Design [capitalised] is not about human and animal artifacts” (#81). But he also claims “ID properly applies to artifacts” (#76). So, there seems to a double-sided coin involved in his approach to ID. How can IDM-ID ‘not be about,’ but at the same time ‘properly apply to’ artifacts? In my view, it can’t." ** I provided a clear example above which could have dispelled Gregory's confusion here, but he didn't pay any attention to it. A veterinarian has a fair bit of knowledge which "properly applies" to human health -- he knows about circulatory systems and skeletal structures and stomachs and poisons and parasites and rabies and stool analysis and surgery and how to give injections and so on. But veterinary science is not "about" human health; it's about animal health. Similarly, ID people have a solid basic of knowledge of what is meant by "intelligent design" in the human context -- many of them have advanced training in engineering, computer programming, etc. But their goal is not to study human design as such; their goal is to determine if telltale signs of intelligent design are found in nature. This ought to be luminously clear; why Gregory doesn't get it, I can't imagine. Gregory then seizes upon my discussion of "id" and "ID" and tries to turn it to his advantage, protesting that he all along has supported "id" but not "ID." Exactly what I had pointed out to him! I not only acknowledged the distinction Gregory has made in the past -- I emphasized it! But what Gregory does not discuss at all in his defensive response is the main point which I was raising, i.e., that in *this* discussion, now, Gregory has *not* been talking about "id" at all. His entire commentary has been about "ID." He has been trying to redefine, not "id" but "ID." He has been trying to say that Human Extension is useful, not to "id" but to "ID." He cannot deny this, as we can all read his column above, and the comments, and note the absence of "id" and the consistent usage of "ID." Similarly, when he cites Fuller, he cites Fuller's opinion on "ID" not "id." So the question is: if "ID" is wrong-headed, then why does Gregory want to be associated with it, even by way of offering a corrected version? Why doesn't he just say that "ID" is waste of time, but "id" isn't, and that Human Extension is meant to be a constructive addition to "id" not "ID"? So Gregory, answer the question: why did "id" lower-case drop entirely off the radar in your presentation? Why are you more concerned here to link your ideas up with "ID" than with "id"? Gregory also wrote: "Timaeus claims Big-ID (that’s the shortest form, which I will use henceforth) is about just the Movement (social, cultural, educational, religious, political, etc.) and its institutional reality at Discovery Institute." ** I never said any such thing. I've said repeatedly that ID is about trying to determine whether or not there is design in non-human nature. All this sociological blather about movements and institutions and so on has nothing to do with my position. It just allows people like Gregory to drag in alleged motivations when they should be talking about arguments and evidence for and against design in nature. "My attempt to chart a new way forward is obviously disconcerting to him, thus the repeated personal attacks and insults he has publically written about me in recent days at UD." ** Gregory's attempt to "chart a new way forward" is not "disconcerting" to me. In fact, though Gregory appears to read too hurriedly or carelessly to have noticed, I've said about five times now that I think his project would make an excellent addition to human/social studies. ** As for personal attacks and insults, I try to avoid them, and Gregory will note that I wrote a separate post to withdraw one remark which could have been taken as an insult, before he even commented on it. In any case, rare is the day when Gregory's replies to me do not contain a fair bit of personal "edge" -- he refuses to keep off-stage grievances separate from our conversations here -- and he has in several places said a number of false and insulting things about my academic training and (lack of) knowledge in various fields -- things which I have chosen not to reply to. I decided to spare the readers of UD some blistering (but totally justifiable) long responses to some of Gregory's mean-spirited comments about me, because such responses would be off-topic. "This is the argument from analogy between human intelligence and non-human intelligence. It does not hold up to scrutiny once one realises that natural sciences and social sciences have different methodological rules." ** Once again Gregory starkly contradicts Steve Fuller, and even his own argument about "the image of God" -- since Steve Fuller's point -- against the Thomists -- is that the analogy between human and divine intelligence *does* hold up to scrutiny. ** In any case, the methodological rules of the social sciences, whatever they are, have nothing to do with ID. We can understand what intelligent design is without knowing anything at all about "social science." Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Vico, etc. understood what intelligent design was before modern "social science" was even born. The question whether intelligent design is found in nature can be addressed without consulting the social scientists at all. "Thus, if ID *CAN* possibly speak about ‘artifacts’ (as most people at UD have affirmed), then it can also speak ‘with absolute certainty’ about “the identity and nature of the designer,” i.e. about human beings.... Iow, IDM-ID is unnecessarily agnostic about “the identity and nature of the designer” when the realm is artifacts that are by-definition human-made." ** Gregory is speaking nonsense. No ID proponent has ever argued that we need to be agnostic about the identity of the designer when we are talking about artifacts on earth. "In fact, it is *not* “irrelevant whether the designer is human or not.”" ** Wrong again. It is completely irrelevant -- if our only goal is to make a correct inference of design. If a biological system is designed, it's designed, and it doesn't matter who the designer is. We don't need to know who the designer is to disprove the Darwinians. No matter who the designer is, if there *is* a designer, the Darwinians are wrong. That is why they must fight -- by any means fair or foul -- to block off design inferences. "Nobody here has stood up to Fuller’s challenge, not even Timaeus," ** I beg your pardon! I asked Fuller several questions of clarification on this very thread, after he posted. He has chosen not to reply. If anyone has turned tail here, it isn't I. "And some people here have even been hesitant to acknowledge the imago Dei doctrine as being involved in the coining of ‘IDM-ID’ in the 1980s-’90?s." ** Gregory, you haven't presented a shred of textual evidence to show that the founders of ID were thinking of the imago Dei when they started out. You've conjectured they were thinking of it. Conjecture isn't fact. Assertions of fact require documentation. Didn't they teach you that in Sociology? ** You're also misusing the word "coining," since the term "IDM-ID" wasn't "coined" in the 1980s by anyone. In fact, it was "coined" by you -- no one talks of "IDM-ID" except for you. And you are the guy who goes on and on about how people shouldn't "offend" the folks at BioLogos by writing "Biologos" with a small l -- yet you repeatedly speak of "IDM-ID" -- a label which no ID person in the world employs or acknowledges. If you want people to "respect" other people, start by "respecting" your dialogue partners by dumping "IDM-ID" from your vocabulary. Stop imposing your labels on others. "“ID is the place where the science-theology nexus is taken seriously as an intellectual project, and is in fact what makes ID an exciting research orientation.” – Steve Fuller" ** This is a completely arbitrary statement on Fuller's part. The verb "is" in the second position is completely unwarranted, because it is not a description of what ID *is*, but represents Fuller's own wishful thinking -- about what ID *should* be. I've made this point before, but you are deaf to it. So maybe I should shout it: ** Fuller is not the official voice of ID. He is not even considered by the major ID proponents to be a mainstream ID proponent. He is not a Discovery Fellow. His views have not been endorsed by Discovery. His opinion of what ID should be carries no weight at Discovery, at UD, or with any other ID organization. He is rarely or never in attendance at large-scale ID conferences, and he is not by any means in the inner circle of ID people. He is an outside observer with advice for ID people on how they should conduct themselves. Some of his advice is good; much of it is interesting. I respect him as an original thinker. But the statement above is presumptuous, impertinent, and insubordinate. He hasn't even received his private's uniform yet, or dug his first ditch, and he wants to be one of the five-star generals in the ID army. Ain't gonna happen, Gregory.Timaeus
July 31, 2012
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Why the lack of power in IDM-ID to analyse design processes? Artifacts are 'designed' by 'designers' who can be studied. You claim IDM-ID "can be applied to any artifact." I say it can't, based on its current priorities. All I hear to the contrary is "we refuse to discuss a context in which designers and design processes can be studied". But people already study design processes and designers. So, why can't IDM-ID?Gregory
July 31, 2012
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--Gregory: “StephenB says (#69): “the [ID] method can be applied to any artifact,” i.e. to human-made things. Correct. --“ And he answers clearly ‘Yes’ in #82, that ID theory properly applies to artifacts.” Clearly, ID can be properly applied to artifacts. --“So, my pregnant question to StephenB: If we can apply ID methods to artifacts, then can we not logically and properly speak about the ‘designers’ (i.e. human beings) and the ‘designing processes’ (well-documented) involved in making artifacts, i.e. by studying the human beings involved in ‘human-made things’?” No. Not in that context. You can speak about those things all you like, and you can certainly study them as much as you please, but the ID process is powerless to analyze the design process. I have explained this to you many times and even provided examples.StephenB
July 31, 2012
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