Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Gregory and the Subject of Human Extension

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The following is a one-shot guest post by regular UD commenter, Gregory. I offer this because I know that Gregory’s been talking about Intelligent Design for years, and because it was my intention to give him the chance to make his case for the social sciences’ relevance to the ID discussion. As before, my posting this shouldn’t be taken as endorsement – in fact I’m very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons, which I may or may not mention later in comments. But he was civil and sincere enough, and I thought the regulars at UD would find his thoughts interesting, whether to consider or point out the flaws.

Anyway, here I cede the floor to the social sciences. Have at it, folks.

Human Extension: an Alternative Way to Look at Intelligent Design
By Gregory Sandstrom, PhD
“The endless cycles of idea and action
Endless invention, endless experiment
Brings knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.”
– T.S. Eliot

Thanks to nullasalus for agreeing to post this guest thread on Uncommon Descent.

This post contains an article that includes 3 internet links to works on evolution, creation, intelligent design and human extension that I have produced or been involved with in recent months. It also means that I am ‘coming out of the closet’ by revealing my true name. At this point in time (summer 2012), I consider that to be a risk worth taking.

When I accepted an invitation to attend the Discovery Institute’s summer program for humanities and social sciences in 2008, I did so not as an IDer, but rather as someone researching in the subfield now called sociology of science (SoS). I wanted to see who these people are that accept and promote intelligent design (ID) and learn more about the home base for the intelligent design movement (IDM), the Discovery Institute (DI) in Seattle, Washington. It was a professional curiosity regarding IDers and the IDM as much as it was a personal interest in science, philosophy and religion discourse that brought me to knock on the DI’s door.

The first day at the summer program we were given a presentation (including both the natural-physical sciences as well as the humanities and social sciences participants) by Bruce Gordon, CSC Senior Fellow. According to Gordon, there are 3 types (or definitions) of evolution: 1. change-over-time, 2. universal common descent, and 3. neo-Darwinism (by which he meant natural selection plus random mutation). Gordon said that ID has no problem with 1 or (generally, if not specifically) 2, but that 3 is believed by IDers to be either wrong or insufficient.

This may sound unusual to some people (as it would to Bruce), but I disagree mostly with 1, take no issue with 2 (though I’m open to some kind of ‘uncommon’ descent scenario, specifically with respect to human beings, e.g. ‘divine election,’ while accepting an ‘old’ Earth), and don’t much care about 3, given that my interests are mainly outside of biology, botany, zoology and genetics. I treat neo-Darwinism as an ideology rather than as a science and consider (neo-)Darwinian evolution as a legitimate natural scientific theory that seems to have many ‘errors’ in it at the same time that it also possesses many truths (cf. Allchin 2009). To clarify, I reject calling ‘(neo-)Darwinism’ a ‘scientific theory’ because of the common ideological signifier ‘-ism’ which is attached to Darwin’s name.

Regarding point 1, ‘evolution’ should not be defined or expressed to mean ‘change-over-time’ because there are ‘other’ kinds of ‘change-over-time’ that are not ‘evolutionary’ (more on this below). In other words, change is the master category, rather than evolution. Evolution is a particular type of change (i.e. non-teleological or goal-oriented and without foresight) and people should not attempt to invert the linguistic priority by giving evolution a monopoly over change. Doing so improperly privileges evolution and leads to the possibility of turning evolution from a natural scientific theory into an ideology or even a materialistic or atheistic worldview.

Taking this approach over the years has allowed me to reframe the general discourse of evolution, creation and ID which I invite people visiting or participating at UD to consider as a view that both is contra-evolutionism and humanitarian. Here I define ‘evolutionism’ as the ideological exaggeration of evolutionary theory into fields or topics where it does not properly belong. One example of this is giving ‘evolution’ a monopoly over ‘change.’ Another is the faulty transference of evolution from biology into anthropology, psychology, sociology, politics, economics and cultural studies; socio-biology and evolutionary psychology being the simplest examples.

So, UD reader, if you are against the ideology of evolutionism, then you might be interested to openly consider the position I am putting forward here and elsewhere. Truth be told, however, this position differs in significant ways from ID as it is presented and advocated for today by the IDM. If you are an IDM-ID proponent, and if you likewise consider the position I’m putting forward as valid and potentially fruitful, then you will eventually be faced with a choice between IDM-ID and the more holistic approach to science, philosophy and religion presented here. This approach claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM. This is said after having viewed the DI and IDM from within more than independent internet bloggers.

You might be wondering where I’m going with this since I’ve been working in the human-social sciences on the topic for over a decade (2010 defended a dissertation on comparative sociology). Is it my task to ridicule ID and mock you in the same way as materialists and Darwinists do? No. It turns out that I made a far-reaching discovery in 2001 that may seem counter-intuitive to some people at first, but which has held up under scrutiny, criticism and mentorship. It is either a non-ID or a neo-ID approach to knowledge and existence, thus this thread is titled “an alternative way to look at intelligent design.” Let me now explain the reasoning behind Human Extension.

This discovery effectively answers the question of ‘what doesn’t evolve’ and/or ‘what are the limits of evolution,’ while also providing a new contribution in the human-social sciences. Michael Behe writes of ‘the edge of evolution’ related to biology, but it doesn’t sound like the biological community has (yet) embraced his notion of ‘unevolvability.’ What I discovered and have tested over a decade for weaknesses and errors is an alternative approach to ‘unevolvability’ in a different core field than biology, where nevertheless evolutionary ideas are still active and current.

In short form, what I am suggesting is that it makes sense to say that technology and other human-made things (cf. ‘artificial selection’) do not ‘evolve.’ Instead, they ‘extend’ from human choices.
This human-social paradigm for science and technology studies (STS) can be expressed in two basic axioms:
Axiom 1 – Nothing human-made evolves into being (or having become);
Axiom 2 – Everything human-made extends from human choice(s), to do, to act or to make something.

If you wish to challenge Human Extension, it is with these two axioms that you should start.

The idea of ‘human extension,’ found in the work of internationally recognised culture, technology and media theorist Marshall McLuhan, the so-called ‘sage of the wired age,’ came to me before I had actually heard of ‘intelligent design’ (ID) and the intelligent design movement (IDM). When I later learned about the IDM (2002), I then became active in exploring the possibilities of their new idea, participating in discussion forums about ID and asking questions via e-mail to IDM leaders. I also visited the DI in Seattle, which was just a couple of hours drive from my home near Vancouver, Canada.

During the period of the following years, I continued to develop the answer I’d discovered, engaging with people around the world (in no less than 7 countries) on its history, possible relevance and application. After several presentations at academic conferences and then publications in scientific journals on this topic (from 2005-2010), finally in 2011 the time came to face an ‘alternative world of ID’ (Fuller 2012).

This alternative way to look at ID can be seen for the first time by visitors to UD in this TEDx talk, which raises the spectre of ID, but also goes beyond it by speaking of Human Extension and the courage of extending humanity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t85d6Bh9Nys.

One example of an ‘alternative world of ID’ that I had heard about during my journey is visible in the prolific work of American-British philosopher and sociologist of science, Steve Fuller. His approach to ID is imo on the cutting-edge, even if it is not well-known or widely accepted in the IDM. (Note for religious apologists: his Wikipedia profile is wrong – he is not an atheist or a ‘secular humanist,’ but rather an Abrahamist, educated by Jesuits.) Fuller was called as witness and participated at the 2005 Dover Trial, but that is far from being his most important contribution on this topic (see parallel thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-fuller-in-id-philosophy-news/). His work as a social epistemologist facilitates people to consider the presuppositions and implications of ID theory, in ways that both distinguishes it from ‘creationism’ while also revealing its dependency on the worldview of its founders who all believe human beings are/were created in imago Dei. According to Fuller, without recognising this and the “deep theological roots” of ‘intelligent design,’ any theory that takes its name makes little sense from a historical or intellectual perspective.

As a result of following the trail Fuller has blazed, over the past few years I’ve come to realise that humanities and social sciences enable fresh access to ‘the bridge’ between natural sciences, philosophy and theology that IDers have written and spoken about but have yet to practically cross. Crossing such a bridge is possible because meaning, purpose and values are involved in humanities and social sciences in a way they are not in natural sciences. In other words, by ‘humanising ID’ into the humanities and social sciences, i.e. by recognising the inescapable ‘reflexivity’ (both individual and group-oriented) involved in defining and interpreting ‘intelligent design’ both now and in the first place (1980’s & 90’s), a new type of qualitative evaluation or meaning infusion can be revealed that is not now available in IDM-ID.

Towards this prospect, a series of short papers has been recently published on the topic (http://social-epistemology.com/2012/06/05/sandstrom-basboll-craddock-scott-intelligent-design-as-social-epistemology-collective-judgment-forum/), called “Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology” (ID as SE). The involvement of social epistemologists on the topic of ID actually realises the predictions that DI scholars made in the 1990s regarding the unique role of non-natural sciences in shaping the future and current meaning of ‘intelligent design.’ In other words, we are ahead of the IDM in looking at the social influences on and actual beliefs of IDers, thus providing a valuable service to scientists and laypeople from a sociological perspective.

This means that we don’t just look at ID as an ‘ontological’ view (i.e. the position that contends there *is* ‘detectable’ design in the natural world), but instead as an ‘epistemological’ view people hold that displays various pre-commitments and background assumptions. By looking closer at the personal-ideological features of ID, a contribution by humanities and social sciences can be welcomed. This is what is being suggested here now at UD, though much more work is presented elsewhere, and it is granted that even more remains on the road towards you being convinced.

If you’ve made it this far you may be wondering why this matters to the IDM? Why should people who are promoting ID predominantly in natural-physical and applied sciences pay any attention at all to social sciences and humanities? First, because admitting that ‘social epistemology’ is in *any* way involved with ID theory challenges the neutrality-myth that ID is merely a detached, impersonal, objectivistic, scientific theory of order, teleology and information. Also, because ‘Darwinism,’ the greatest singular ideological enemy of the IDM, has in some ways also affected the social sciences and humanities in the form of ‘social Darwinism.’

It may have seemed like a good idea to insist that ID-is-science-only using (copying, imitating, etc.) the preferred language of natural scientific methods. But in fact doing just that actually compromises the core meaning of ID, which imo has the higher potential to re-humanise, rather than to dehumanise via its connection with philosophy and theology. The neutrality-myth indeed can be seen as a burden on the soul of the scientist, just as much as some people consider it as a kind of liberation (or escape) from religion to study ‘just the facts.’ The meaning of ‘intelligent design’ as Fuller and I approach it is about ideas, pre-commitments and the personal worldview(s) of its proponents as much as it is about biological data and physical or material details. Admitting that the psychological dimension is inevitably part of ‘doing science’ will be a humbling experience for the neutrality-myth proponents of ID.

To suggest that ‘atheists could be IDers’ is also deemed as an ingenuous and highly unlikely if not impossible proposition. If one believes that the world is ordered, guided, and/or governed by a transcendent intelligence, like the Abrahamic God, as do Fuller and myself and presumably all other ‘real’ (authentic) IDers, then the suggestion that ‘atheistic ID’ is even a possibility is removed from the logical table of discussion. David Berlinski is thus a mere anti-Darwinist rather than a pro-IDer, sharing positive theological meanings of ‘design.’

Atheists can therefore become IDers, but they cannot disbelieve in God and also accept the core meaning of ID, that people are divinely-created (and are thus able to recognize ‘intelligence’ in the created world). IDers are persons of faith in a ‘designer/Designer,’ even if they do not often include (i.e. even sometimes purposely exclude) discussion about it in their persistent quest for ID’s scientificity. It is not controversial to grasp this or to express it.

What it speaks to is one of the most significant features of ID theory that often goes unnoticed. Without showing what ID has to do with actual persons, i.e. how ID makes a difference of meaning in people’s lives, the notion of ID ‘in biology’ or ‘in nature’ cannot properly resonate with or influence humanity. IDM-ID as a ‘neutral-natural-science’ thus obscures as much as it enlightens. That is why humanities and social sciences scholars need to be pro-actively invited for constructive dialogue with ID natural scientists, engineers, programmers and theologians. The former fields contain insights into meaning, purpose, value and ethics that natural and applied scientists simply do not possess. Objectivistic approaches to ‘intelligence’ and ‘design’ thus only give a partial view of the story, which can also be informed by subjectivity and personality.

By turning to ‘an alternative world of ID’ that places the central focus on human choices, purpose, meaning and teleology in opposition to universal evolutionism, a direct, realistic path opens up to overcoming naturalistic and materialistic ideologies that have tended to extinguish belief in the human spirit. It is expected that 99% of IDers support belief in the ‘human spirit’ and rejection of materialism as an obligation. Materialism is an ideology that is simply not satisfactory when employed on topics of choice and action. But the IDM has not (yet) satisfactorily explored these topics. This is where looking to Human Extension offers new hope for an end to the (Anglo-American) ‘culture wars’ over evolutionism, not to mention ‘Darwinism.’

The arrival of a social scientific approach to ‘intelligent design’ such as Human Extension is surprisingly what the DI already predicted in the 1990s and what is now finally coming to happen. Though it may appear to look like IDM-ID, in fact Human Extension differs considerably in speaking with emphasis anthropically and reflexively. Nevertheless, what some of you at UD mean by ‘design’ may be thought to be what I mean by ‘extension.’ Looking deeper at these two notions will thus help to clarify the differences and similarities; for now it is enough to say that the two positions share a common opposition to evolutionism.
The greatest indictment of evolutionary philosophy: it brings “knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.” This is how extension is able to challenge evolutionary philosophy by insisting that pauses and lack of change, voids and moments of stillness are part of human life and existence. Unceasing eternal/temporal change is as impossible to the human mind, body and soul as eternal/temporal sameness.

What people are seeking today is thus a balance between statics and dynamics, between more and enough, between science, philosophy and religion. This is what Human Extension helps people to more directly explore and encounter than is possible through the lens of evolutionary philosophy or naturalistic ID.

Change is involved in human living, whether we call it ‘evolution’ or not. But there are also pauses or gaps or voids or stillness, which are a part of human existence. The way we label this recognition will inform the post-evolutionistic epoch. Even those who subscribe to theistic evolution (TE) or evolutionary creation (EC) will find it helpful that ‘evolutionism’ can be safely exposed as ideology and removed from carrying a label of ‘scientific.’ This is what my work over the past decade has shown, which is now revealed at UD under the label of Human Extension, as it has been called elsewhere. For those interested to pursue the idea further, much more than this short introduction is written and available elsewhere (just follow the link on my name).

Human Extension is an example of ‘change-over-time’ that is not evolutionary; it involves purpose, plan, goal(s), meaning and direction (teleology) that is not present in biological evolutionary theories. It is a human-social scientific (reflexive) contribution to knowledge and discourse involving evolution, creation and intelligent design. By allowing choice a foot in the door via Human Extension, the ideology of evolutionism can be overcome, allowing a significant step to be taken in human-social thought toward more balanced, collaborative dialogue between the major realms of science, philosophy and religion.

There is now therefore a new position available in the conversation to contemplate, a post-neo-evolutionary position, which draws on rich and deep traditions in a variety of scholarly fields, from philosophy and theology to communications, psychology, geography, anthropology, mathematics and economics. This position, not one from biology, engineering, informatics or origins of life studies, offers a sincere, deliberate and long-prepared challenge to evolutionism and IDM-ID. This includes hope for clarification and collaboration, as well as a reality check to the IDM’s narrow naturalistic notion of ‘intelligent design,’ which so far (purposely) excludes human meaning.

So, now that I’ve come out of the closet and revealed myself and this dynamic-static, more-enough, counter-evolutionistic approach that has been in the works for years, is it possible that you will you respond favourably and with constructively critical comments, challenges or questions? Will you instead drop the plastic hammer of condemnation by stating how irrelevant the social sciences are in the contemporary world, how humanity doesn’t actually matter very much for intelligent design, evolution and creation topics, that they involve nothing but objective or empirical scientific questions? Or will you keep the option open that a new paradigm or heuristic could arise to shed new light on old problems, including issues of whether or not mind, consciousness or spirit are involved (reflexively) in the world of human nature?

I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there. I may disagree with their ‘blind’ acceptance of ID, but I don’t reject them as persons. The choice is now up to you: in what way you will extend your hand to me and to this new possibility of Human Extension as an integrative insight into science, philosophy and theology?

“Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.” – Pope John Paul II

Extension is a “fundamental notion concerning the nature of reality.” – A.N. Whitehead

Sources:
Allchin, Douglas (2009). “Celebrating Darwin’s Errors.” The American Biology Teacher, Vol. 71, No. 2. Earlier form adapted and posted here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~allch001/papers/D-errors-NYU.pdf
Dembski, William (2004). The Design Revolution. Inter-Varsity Press.
Fuller, Steve (2006). The New Sociological Imagination. Sage Publications.

McLuhan, Marshall (1964). Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man. New York: McGraw-Hill

Comments
GS: As a supplement to Timaeus' question, please explain the relevance of McLuhan's four effects etc to the claimed origin by undirected forces of chance and mechanical necessity in a warm little electrified pond or a volcano vent or a gas giant moon or a comet etc some 3.8 BYA, of gated, metabolic, C-chemistry Aqueous medium automata involving von Neumann self replication -- i.e. living cells -- thus using coded digital data. KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
03:20 PM
3
03
20
PM
PDT
Gregory, re 61: I have a much better question: "Did random mutations, filtered by natural selection, and perhaps accompanied by other stochastic mechanisms, all without either intervention or front-loading by any intelligence, turn a primitive one-celled creature into all the other life forms, including man?" Yes or no. The reason my question is better is that it addresses an existential concern -- about the purpose of human life -- felt by hundreds of millions of people throughout the world, whereas your question is of interest only to academics studying epistemology and social science -- about 1% of 1% the world's population.Timaeus
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
It’s probably KF’s first introduction to the Four Effects, and that is why he’s not prepared to give a respectable answer. Thus, defence is needed, in the form of dismissal. In that sense, KF is kind of like F.M. Dostoevsky’s observation: “Give to a Russian pupil, ignorant in astronomy, a map of the heavenly bodies; and the next day he will bring it back corrected.” There simply couldn't be a 'serious confusion' with KF's understanding because IDM-ID *is* right, end of story. But this is the United States and its competence in philosophy of science today we are speaking about. It would win very few medals on the international scale on this topic. Is it ready to be coached by others or to humbly admit a need for help? KF cites “the pattern of causal factors tracing to chance, mechanical necessity and choice contingency.” These are very different things when speaking about human intelligence and non-human (mainly speculative) intelligence. Can that be acknowledged openly? The ‘serious confusion’ KF speaks of is his own, not knowing about the studies of ‘effects’ that have been going on outside of Dembski’s ‘explanatory filter’ or Meyer's 'processes from origins' reverse engineering for many years. Several issues of contrast between IDM-ID, which is interested in ‘organisms’ and other biological objects, and Human Extension, which is interested in ‘artifacts’ remain on the table in this thread. Let us not forget that ‘theories’ are also ‘artefacts’ of human-making. If Human Extension, as a way of studying human designs and institutions and their actualization, can help to displace ‘evolution of everything’ ideology, is it not something that can and should be supported by IDM-IDers?Gregory
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
One question, humble and merciful Timaeus, hiding bravely behind a sock-puppet: Is 'intelligent design/Intelligent Design theory' in your opinion a 'human-made thing'? Yes or no?Gregory
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
12:32 PM
12
12
32
PM
PDT
Gregory's reply to StephenB at 57-58 is illuminating. It reinforces all the points I've been making to Gregory. Examples: ********************* Gregory: "Let there be no mistake, Human Extension is focussed on ‘artefacts,’ i.e. on human-made things and not on ‘organisms’ and other biological objects." * Exactly. Which is why it has nothing to do with ID theory (as Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Wells, Sternberg, Denton, etc. conceive of it.) ****************** StephenB: “the Human Extension process cannot speak to the problem of nature’s design patterns” Gregory: "That is not what HEM is meant for." * Exactly. Which is why it is useless to ID theory (as specified above). ******************* So the point is that, however useful "Human Extension" may be -- and I've never denied that it could be useful -- that is, if it could be focused on precise goals, and abandon any attempt to be a grand theory of Everything -- it is of no use to the activities of the ID people. The only way it *could* be useful is by coming up with some new understanding of the nature of "design" which could give the ID people hints where to look in nature for evidence of design, or suggestions how to refine their tests for design. But Gregory appears to be completely uninterested in such an application of his project. As a lead-up to my conclusion, I'll examine Gregory's final statement: "In a nutshell, StephenB, that’s the argument for Human Extension as an alternative way to look at ID." But Gregory's discussion has proved that it *isn't* an alternative way to look at "ID" at all. It has *nothing to do* with ID. It is a project of studying design in the human context alone. It self-consciously limits itself to that context. Therefore, isn't an alternative way to look at ID; it's a completely different enterprise. The two are as different as biology and sociology. Again, there is nothing wrong with Gregory's project. A "phenomenology of human design" could be quite illuminating for social science and even for the humanities. But he has not shown its relevance to ID. How would it improve Mike Behe's arguments? As far as I can tell, it would "improve" them by generating a prefatory statement like this: "For those who are curious about my motives, I always thought that my motive was to provide a better scientific explanation than that offered by neo-Darwinism. I still maintain this to be my conscious motive. However, I am told by sociologists of science that I look for design in nature because I am unconsciously influenced by the Christian doctrine of imago dei. That also is probably true. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that I have two motives, one conscious, and one unconscious. But my scientific peers don't give a rat's rear end about my motives, conscious or unconscious; they want to see my arguments. So now, if the sociologists will get off my back, I'd like to get on with demonstrating that the immune system could not have evolved by Darwinian means." Is that what Gregory wants? For ID people to preface all their scientific works with statements like that? And if they do so, will he leave them alone after that? And stop asking them to read McLuhan and a million other things? Sheesh, if that's all he wants, if that's all it will take to get him to stop posting irrelevant sociological material on ID-related web sites, I personally will write to Behe, Dembski, etc., and beg them to include a paragraph like the above in their next books. I'll even write the paragraphs for them. Deal, Gregory?Timaeus
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
12:18 PM
12
12
18
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Notice, how GS alludes to a proposal regarding impacts of media as though it were all the same as the pattern of causal factors tracing to chance, mechanical necessity and choice contingency:
What does the medium enhance? What does the medium make obsolete? What does the medium retrieve that had been obsolesced earlier? What does the medium flip into when pushed to extremes?
This bespeaks a serious confusion. KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
(cont’d) You mention causality, StephenB, and above you mentioned effects. Let’s now look more closely at that. I wrote above that Stephen C. Meyer defined ‘intelligent design’ (uncapitalised, 2008) as: “The choice of an intelligent agent to actualise a possibility.” StephenB responded, saying: “Meyer was talking about the process by which the cause (intelligence) produces the effect (the actualized possibility). ID science is the process by which [a] researcher observes the effect, and infers the cause (intelligence)” and of “The detection of the event: Moving backward from effect to cause.” Dembski wrote in 1999: “We know we are dealing with an intelligent cause only through the effects that such causes leave behind.” One of the greatest theorists in the study of ‘effects’ was the Canadian media, culture and technology scholar Marshall McLuhan. He even coined Four Effects to mirror the Four Causes of Aristotle, which are often cited here at UD. But McLuhan has not been championed or claimed by anyone in the IDM, at least, not that I am aware of. Why not on the topic of Effects? In an interview in 1975, McLuhan said: “I don't study causes. I study effects … No one else is doing this.” In 1964, he wrote about “the operation and effects of human artifacts on man and society.” The difference when it comes to IDM-ID is that McLuhan was interested in ‘artifacts’ (human-made things), while the IDM is focussed on ‘organisms’ (non-human-made things), as StephenB said (but there’s more to this coming below). I’m not convinced that IDM-ID’s supposed ‘methodology’ is capable of detecting the ‘effects of intelligence’ (sometimes called ‘signs of intelligence’) in organic things. Most biologists are certainly not convinced of this, even if they find it difficult, if not impossible, to exorcise the language of ‘design’ from their disciplinary speech. McLuhan also spoke about the ‘evolution of technology,’ with which I disagree and aim to change with the notion of Human Extension. However, there is some truth to be found in his claim that, “The entire evolutionary process shifted, at the moment of Sputnik, from biology to technology.” (1969) He also said that, “These media, being extensions of ourselves, also depend upon us for their interplay and their evolution. The fact that they do interact and spawn new progency…need baffle us no longer if we trouble to scrutinize their action. We can, if we choose, think things out before we put them out.” (1964) The final phrase in bold has become the theme song for Human Extension. Here we see McLuhan applying an organic metaphor to an artefactual domain. This is explainable mainly by the heavy influences of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and A.N. Whitehead on his thought. Whitehead’s philosophy of organism, his organic realism (in contrast to materialism), had a profound influence on McLuhan, as did Teilhard de Chardin’s notion that not only the cosmos ‘evolves,’ but “all things under heaven,” including humanity and our ‘extensions’ (creative choices, actions of making artifacts). If organisms ‘evolve,’ as Darwin’s theory all but proved (to say nothing about origins of life or biological information or the worldview influence of Darwin’s agnosticism on the meaning of his natural science contribution), then artefacts of human-making, e.g. technology, should be thought to ‘evolve’ as well. This can be seem most concisely in McLuhan’s question: “Is not the mechanical at its best a remarkable approximation to the organic?”(1964) But here’s the rub for IDM and theories of ID. I’ve heard people on both (or many) sides of this conversation many times claim that culture, society, politics, economics, religion, language, technology, etc. should *all* be compressed or categorized under the title ‘Natural.’ However, if technology is ‘natural’ (or organic-like) and IDM-ID is sleuthing for ‘design in nature,’ i.e. for ‘effects (or signs) of intelligence,’ then IDM-ID theory should be directing its focus to technology, instead of to biology. This is a reverse perspective to how IDM-IDers currently perceive; from origins of life and biological information, to reflexive humanity and cooperative dialogue between science, philosophy and religion. In a nutshell, StephenB, that’s the argument for Human Extension as an alternative way to look at ID. *Actually, there are 2 translations of Harry Potter into Chinese, traditional and simplified; both are ‘extensions’ of the original English book, which is an extension of J.K. Rowling's imagination and creativity and her choice, action, production of writing a book about Harry Potter, and eventually a book series.Gregory
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
02:44 AM
2
02
44
AM
PDT
LYO, yes, I will come back to answer your question. I’m writing a short article on it and will post it on my blog. But it will have to wait for now, other than this simple example (inspired by the opening ceremony of London 2012 Olympic Games last night): Is Harry Potter translated into Chinese language*? Yes. That’s a clear and present example of Human Extension. ~ StephenB, Thanks for your answer re: that you meant ‘organism’ instead of ‘artifact’ which I will get to below. Thus, we are in agreement that ID is “focussed on ‘organisms’ and other biological objects (e.g. bacterial flagellum) – non-human-made things, not on ‘artifacts’ – human-made things.” Let there be no mistake, Human Extension is focussed on 'artefacts,' i.e. on human-made things and not on ‘organisms’ and other biological objects. You are correct, StephenB, that Human Extension “probes for answers other than yes or no.” Human Extension is not a “narrowly focused empirical process,” although it does invite and welcome empirical knowledge. Human Extension is not a statistical or probabilistic approach to choice and action. “what you are describing is a meta-analysis, incorporating multiple methodologies” – StephenB Human Extension involves a simple, single methodology, which will be released in my second book (really first one, the first is more like a long e-pamphlet – about 60 pages), hopefully in 2013. Indeed, there I call it Human Extension Methodology (HEM). If you’d like to adopt that acronym for it, you are welcome, but there’s no need to get ahead of ourselves. “the Human Extension process cannot speak to the problem of nature’s design patterns” – StephenB That is not what HEM is meant for. “go beyond criticizing ID’s empirical process for detecting design in nature and provide a better one” – StephenB Again, I’m not interested in trying to “provide a better one.” I’m not convinced that ‘design’ is something that can be ‘empirically proven/detected in nature’ … *unless* ‘human nature’ is involved ‘reflexively’ in the process. Because I (believe I) am designed, I see design. As it stands today, however, IDM-ID does not involve reflexivity and subjectivity (‘I,’ not ‘it’) in its approach; it seeks to be objectivistic, quantitative and statistical (or probabilistic), following natural scientific methods. “you were invited to formulate the model to include the Imago Dei component” – StephenB Do not put the Lord your God to the test, right? “Inasmuch as you cannot, even in your wildest imagination, think of a way to validly include the concept if Imago Dei in ID’s design-detection methodologies, don’t you think you should stop asking us to do it for real?” – StephenB My imagination is quite wild and broadly nourished, but you’re missing the point. I’m not asking for a formal logic, analytic proof or empirical inclusion of imago Dei into whatever process of ‘detecting design’ one is employing or trying to employ. This is the meta-context in which claims of ‘design’ by an Intelligence that created/evolved our human ‘intelligence’ can possibly be made in the first place. Again, it’s the presupposition, to say nothing of the motivation for “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” for doing good science in a modern or perhaps even post-modern way. Sure, one needn't be religious to do good science. But then again, like Steve Fuller asks as a title to one of his book chapters, "What has atheism - old or new - ever done for science?" His answer: "Atheism as a positive doctrine has done precious little for science." (2010) “each discipline has its proper method” – StephenB Couldn’t agree more; there are multiple methods involved in ‘doing science.’ That is a post-modern meaning of ‘science,’ informed and reached by the fruits of work done in history, philosophy and sociology of science (and technology) studies. It need not collapse into ‘relativism,’ while at the same time it recognizes diversity that did not similarly represent the ‘modernist’ view of ‘science’ as a single methodology. There are many more sciences today than there were in Darwin’s and Newton’s times, so even just formally speaking, this makes sense. “I think that there is a way to incorporate the triadic dialogue between science, philosophy, and religion.” – StephenB Glad to hear this! Imo, this sets the table on which discussion of ‘design’ can and should be held. Without it, a lot of empty chatter will and does occur. “Dialogue, yes; synthesis, no.” – StephenB Dialogue, yes; synthesis (or synergy) and harmony, that’s the attempt. (cont’d)Gregory
July 28, 2012
July
07
Jul
28
28
2012
12:35 AM
12
12
35
AM
PDT
LYO: You are right, the design inference process is properly applied to aspects of objects, processes etc, which can include living entities, the product of such (e.g. beaver dams), to found items, and even to cosmological features of the observed universe. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
09:17 AM
9
09
17
AM
PDT
Gregory, When you have the chance, do you think you can answer my question posed to you at #46...
Gregory, Can you provide an example of a ‘thing’ that Human Extension can be used to help determine “was it human-made or not and, if so, how was it made, when, where and why?”. And could you describe how your ‘logic and steps’ would answer that question?
lastyearon
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
StephenB, In principle the design detection process can be used on any object, whether it's biological or not, right? From the definition of ID on this blog: The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection...Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. lastyearon
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
Gregory @51. Exactly right. I wrote the word "artifact" too hurriedly and did, indeed, mean organism. Thank you for reading me so carefully.StephenB
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
06:21 AM
6
06
21
AM
PDT
StephenB: Brace yourself. :-) I agree with Gregory in 51. **************************** Gregory: Are you trying to give me cardiac arrest? Sticking up for the classical, Aristotelian meaning of a word? Be still, my pounding heart! What will it be next? A "Behe for President" bumper sticker? I need to pour myself a stiff drink.Timaeus
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
01:04 AM
1
01
04
AM
PDT
Just a quick question for now, StephenB. I'll address more from your #50 later. You wrote: "ANALYSIS: If we follow the ID process (methodology), we will receive a clear answer to our question: Was the artifact designed? Yes or no?" It was my understanding that 'artifacts' are by definition 'designed,' i.e. by human designers. I thought ID was instead focussed on 'organisms' and other biological objects (e.g. bacterial flagellum) - non-human-made things, not on 'artifacts' - human-made things. Am I wrong in making this distinction regarding the meaning of 'artifact'? When you say 'artifacts' do you actually mean 'organisms and other biological objects'?Gregory
July 27, 2012
July
07
Jul
27
27
2012
12:27 AM
12
12
27
AM
PDT
Gregory, I appreciate your willingness to articulate your vision in somewhat more practical terms. You have provided what seems to be an accurate representation of the human-extension process. Given your input, we can consider the points as you present them. More importantly, we can assess the relative capacities of each model (ID and Humana Extension) to help the analyst attain the hoped-for knowledge. We can do that by simply juxtaposing our respective offerings. ID Purpose: The purpose of the ID model is to address the question of life’s origins and discern the answer, design or no design. Human Extension Purpose: The purpose of Human Extension is to address the question of ‘extensions of man(kind) and to discern an answer to this question: was it human made or not and, if so, how was it made, when where and why. Also, the purpose is to study the notion of tension, how far we extend ourselves, and the impact of personal choices. ID Process [My description] **It begins with the observation of data—next, it proceeds with the application of a paradigm–next, it applies a differential diagnosis by considering naturalistic explanations–then, if follows where the evidence leads, and finally, it concludes with an inference to design as the best explanation.** ANALYSIS: If we follow the ID process (methodology), we will receive a clear answer to our question: Was the artifact designed? Yes or no? That is because the process is streamlined, systematic, and knows specifically the one thing it is looking for. Every step is necessary and must be applied in order presented. Disturb the order or the steps or leave one step out, and the methodology will not work, meaning that there is no hope of attaining the desired knowledge. Human Extension Process [Your description]**It begins with human beings acknowledging they/we are ‘reflexive’ creatures – it studies evidences of things known or believed to be human-made things – it traces the origins and processes involved in the making of these things – it explores the possibility that what appears to be a human-made thing was actually produced by a non-human (e.g. machine or animal), or a natural law (e.g. an evolutionary or ecological process) – it then ‘concludes’ with an ‘inference’ to human extension as the ‘best explanation.’** ANALYSIS: If we follow the Human Extension process, we will receive, among other things, a clear answer to this question: was the object of study made by humans. In some loose and informal ways, it is a parallel analysis to ID methodology in the sense that it seeks to rule out accidental causes. On the other hand, it appears not to be a similarly rigorous process since it probes for answers other than yes or no. (How much did the humans extend themselves? How, when, why was it made? How much tension was involved? Was it an individual or group product? ..etc.) A rigorous, narrowly focused empirical process cannot introduce both quantitative and qualitative elements intrinsic to the same methodology. Qualitative studies do not readily lend themselves to mathematical analysis. More than likely, what you are describing is a meta-analysis, incorporating multiple methodologies, many of which have likely not been formalized. EVALUATION: As is evident, the Human Extension process cannot speak to the problem of nature’s design patterns and is, therefore useless as a tool for evaluating ID’s design-detection methodologies. You will recall that my original challenge to you, and the one to which you now respond, was to go beyond criticizing ID’s empirical process for detecting design in nature and provide a better one. In that context, you were invited to formulate the model to include the Imago Dei component that you (and Steve Fuller) say should be there. I appreciate your honest answer to the effect that you simply can’t think of a way to do it. Accordingly, The Human Extension process, as you have indicated elsewhere, cannot “touch” the problem of biological origins. Inasmuch as you cannot, even in your wildest imagination, think of a way to validly include the concept if Imago Dei in ID’s design-detection methodologies, don’t you think you should stop asking us to do it for real? It is important to understand that each discipline has its proper method. The historical-critical method used in Theology, which can shed light on Scriptural truth (if it is applied carefully and prudently), can tell us nothing about biological origins. ID’s explanatory filter, which speaks to the subject of origins, is powerless as a scientific method to illuminate the subject of First causes, which properly belong to philosophy or metaphysics. Again, philosophy claims exclusive methods of its own. Having said that, I think that there is a way to incorporate the triadic dialogue between science, philosophy, and religion .The task for each discipline is to form a partnership with the other disciplines for the purpose of seeking truth. Each can illuminate the other. Theology, for example can provide science with the teaching that humans are created in the image of God and, in concert with philosophy and the natural law, instruct science on its ethical limits. What theology (or sociology) should never presume to do, howeer, is intrude on science’s methods .The way that science, philosophy, and religion should interact is clear: Dialogue, yes; synthesis, no.StephenB
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
08:03 PM
8
08
03
PM
PDT
Gregory: *My comments follow the asterisks. "“ID is not about the study of ‘designing processes’ — if there is even such a thing. … Design is a mental activity, not a physical one. It’s an activity of thinking. We design things in thought. We manufacture them by physical means. Physical processes we can talk about. Design processes, I don’t see how. I can’t observe your thinking. But I can infer that you have thought something, by looking at what you have done. That’s the heart of the design inference.” – Timaeus "Now we’re getting somewhere. Here’s a significant difference between Timaeus’ views and mine. Timaeus appears to conceive of ‘design’ in an abstract, detached, un-embodied way – just the mental, not the physical too – whereas, I’m interested in the nexus of mental and physical. His is a more philosophical or ‘ideological’ meaning of design, while mine is a more humanistic meaning." * Timaeus conceives of design in a philosophically clear way. In loose, everyday language, when we see a draftsman at a drafting board (more likely, these days, at a computer), and observe his motions of measuring, drawing, typing, and so on, we say he is "designing" something; and when we see a company having all kinds of "team meetings" to develop a new automobile or a new shaving cream, we might speak of these meetings as part of the "design process" for that product. But drawing of lines, the pressing of computer keys, the participation in organizational meetings, etc. is not where the "design" takes place. The "design" takes place inside the mind(s) of the designer(s). And the belief in the creative, designing power of the human mind is as "humanistic" as anything that you are proposing. * When you speak of a "design process" I infer that you are including the whole set of human activities (drawing, measuring, cutting, pasting, talking to colleagues, assigning tasks to subordinates, etc.) which accompanies and supports the interior mental activity, and I can understand that usage, as acceptable shorthand, but it obscures the fact that all designs originate in and proceed from minds, not from pencils, drafting boards, organizational meetings, etc. "Second, if ‘everyone’ (according to Timaeus) is asking me for answers in biology, then they’ll be waiting a long time for answers, since I’m not a biologist and am not planning a career change into biology anytime soon. Likewise, I’m not willing to speculate about ‘origins of life’ other than to say that as a monotheist, I believe the Creator was directly involved in creating life. If that satisfies you that I think OoL was not an accident or that it was ‘non-random’ or ‘guided,’ then so be it. If it doesn’t, so be it too." * Interesting. So now, after a delay of a few years, you finally give a partial answer to where you stand on biological origins. I note that (a) you deal only with the origin of life, and not with its subsequent development; (b) you use the term "guided" -- a term that the BioLogos people absolutely refused to use, even in scare quotes as you have used it. * So if God was "directly involved" in the origin of life, if he "guided" it, then presumably he had an end in mind. Therefore, he had a "design" for the first life -- a model of what the first life-form would look like. So you agree with the ID people that at least the first life was designed. And you go further than that, if you mean "directly involved" and "guided" literally. You are talking about some sort of intervention into natural processes (since, if they would have produced life without his special action, he wouldn't have to be directly involved or to guide anything). So you believe not only in "design" but in "intervention." I'd keep mum about this if I were you; otherwise, you'll soon be losing your BioLogos posting privileges! * On the other hand, by not discussing subsequent evolution, you don't take a side between Behe and Dawkins. You leave open the possibility that all species, including man, could have arisen through an undesigned process. The TE/EC people would like you for that, whereas the ID people would wonder why you don't have a clearer opinion, even if only a tentative, non-expert opinion. Do you find it likely that a blind search (which is what neo-Darwinism amounts to) would find the right combinations to produce hearts, lungs, brains, etc.? I'm not asking you for a scientific proof of anything, just what you think happened. Do you think God just created the first life, then sat back and let nature in its "freedom" produce whatever it might? Or do you think God did something to ensure particular outcomes? "Human Extension is not out to ‘replace ID.’ (Take a deep breath, Timaeus, and let that sink in!)" Gee, I must be slow on the uptake. I thought that a call for ID to switch its focus from what happens in nature to what happens with the design of artifacts and social systems would be a massive changeover from one kind of investigation to a completely different kind of investigation, and therefore that ID, even it continued to be called by the same name, would be superseded by the new investigation. So I inferred that biologists were no longer going to be relevant, and that anthropologists and sociologists were going to be in charge of this new activity, which studies design only where it belongs -- in the human realm, not in questions of non-human nature. [As you have made clear (by retrenching to your former position; see post 37 of mine above.] So maybe you can explain to me what role the Biologic Institute is going to play in this new grand study of "human/social" matters that you envision, especially since Axe, Gauger, etc. have no training in any social sciences and no plans to acquire any such training. When they think they have demonstrated that a particular protein could not have originated by chance, but was designed, are they going to have to submit their proof to a panel of social scientists, who will then tell them that the category of "design" cannot be legitimately applied to non-human molecules? "It simply reveals where and how ID is a (properly) limited claim" * ID people have always carefully limited their claims. They have never claimed to be able to do more than detect design, without being able to say anything about the designer, the truth of any particular religion, etc. If you are now criticizing them for making overextended claims, you are contradicting yourself, because the whole thrust of your recent critique of ID (based on Fuller) is that their claims are *not big enough* -- that they should be making much grander claims about God as the designer of the universe and human beings as made in his image. So what is your critique, that ID people claim too much, or too little? "and where Human Extension can succeed where IDM-ID has not (and perhaps does not aim to)." * Your parentheses have it right -- ID does not aim to "succeed" in the venture aimed at by "Human Extension"; therefore, to say it has "failed" in that venture is nonsensical. You might as well complain that an Olympic runner has "failed" to capture the gold medal for the parallel bars, or that physics has "failed" to show why some people are schizophrenic. ID as a biological project is not about the study of human affairs at all (though it could of course be about the structure and functions of the human body). "But that’s not enough for those people in the IDM who would desire ‘intelligent design’ to be virtually unlimited, who have tightly inter-twined ID with their theologies, biologies and worldviews." * Again, you are contradicting yourself. You've been urging that, as Fuller suggests, ID people should be "up front" with their theology and even integrate it into their biological research program; now you are upset because they have "tightly interwined" the two. And by the way, which ID proponent says that ID explanations are "unlimited"? "Human Extension investigates ‘intelligent agents’ who are involved in building, designing, constructing, acting, composing, doing, making, etc. As a scholarly approach it is predominantly unconcerned with biological information, unless and until it influences human choices." * "Unconcerned with biological information" -- exactly! So why are you bringing it up here? What's it got to do with what we are interested in? Why aren't you bringing this up at a Social Science conference? "Human Extension has a clear and limited scope; that which is made by human beings." * Fine. And ID also has a clear and limited scope; it is trying to determine whether or not there is design in things *not* made by human beings. So why do you keep trying to cajole, badger, and harass ID people into changing their focus over to what *you* are interested in? Why can't you just accept that some people are interested in different questions than you are, and let them pursue their questions in peace? Do biologists write guest posts on sociology web sites, cajoling sociologists into paying much more attention to mitochondrial DNA? "The other specific aim it involves is the ending of exaggeration by the ideology called ‘evolutionism.’ No, the focus of Human Extension is not ‘neo-Darwinism,’ but rather ‘evolutionism,’ which is/can be over-come by a suitable alternative." * ID does not endorse "the ideology called evolutionism." "Evolutionism" is not a term that ID people very often use. ID is interested in the alleged mechanisms of a biological process called "evolution." So any "exaggerations" you are worried about don't come from ID quarters. Your criticism needs to be directed to the guilty parties, not to ID people. How posting your ideas on a site that champions "evolutionary psychology" or "the evolutionary origin of religion"? "Recently, I’ve been reading “A Meaningful World: How the Arts and Sciences Reveal the Genius of Nature” (IVP 2006) by Jonathan Witt and Benjamin Wiker. One fascinating feature of their (IDM-ID friendly) book is its reference both to ‘anthropism’ and to ‘disanthropism,’ the latter which is linked to materialism, reductionism, naturalism and the usual ideological opponents of IDM-ID. I met Witt in 2008 and found him a gentle and kind man." * Good; then you know that ID people are not the narrow, intellectually Philistine "science-only" types you painted them as in your last message. That's progress. "The last time I quoted from an ID book that I’d read, called “Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology” (1999), my current accuser of illiteracy, Timaeus, told me he himself hadn’t actually read it and therefore couldn’t engage my specific critique. Has he read it yet?" * No. Life is finite. I can't read everything. I've already read a considerable amount by Dembski, and know his general position fairly well. Someday I may read it. I'm trying to read the harder, more technical books, while my brain is still agile enough to understand them. Later, in my old age, I will "coast" and read the more popular presentations. Or more likely, Russian novels, which will be more entertaining. "If anyone thinks that he or she can detect any place in ID theorizing where religious or philosophical prejudices affect the scientific conclusions reached by ID proponents*, he or she is welcome to point out those places. Gregory has been challenged to point out such places before, and has declined the challenge." – Timaeus "Yes, once ‘intelligent design’ was theorized in the first place; that’s the warm and bubbly rub, and it’s not a (pejorative) ‘prejudice’" -- Gregory * So that's it? Merely because someone considers the possibility that features of the universe might be designed, and looks for empirical evidence to verify or falsify that possibility, that person's science is theologically biased, and his results scientifically suspect? "The coining of ID, the ‘in the beginning,’ a eureka moment (which actually wasn’t so, unless one counts respected Dr. Charles Thaxton’s initial coinage of the phrase, in its IDM-inspiring variant), undeniably has “theological roots” (cf. S. Fuller). Without those ‘theological roots,’ indeed, had the founding members of the IDM *not* believed that the world was/is ‘intelligible’ *because* they believe we are created in imago Dei, we would not be having this discussion at this site today. There would be no IDM-ID." * Lots of people believe that the world is intelligible who aren't ID supporters. The intelligibility of the world is a view broadly held by virtually every educated modern person. So this claim amounts to saying that the entire modern mentality has theological roots. Well, in a sense, that is true, since the modern mind sprang from Christian civilization. But that says absolutely nothing about whether Dawkins or Behe is right about the flagellum, etc. So it's a true but useless observation; it has no "refereeing" capacity between ID and atheism, ID and TE, etc. "This doesn’t, however, have to compromise IDM-ID’s legitimate aspirations toward ‘scientificity’. The ‘theological roots’ should simply be acknowledged up-front and openly, repeatedly, and carefully so that it can be taken off the table of complaints by anti-IDM-IDers that ID has *nothing* to do with religion or theology, when its very foundation is undeniably built on it (yet Timaeus will spin it to suggest that I’ve claimed IDM-ID is ‘religious in nature,’ which I have not said)." * You are not making the proper distinctions. First, you have to distinguish between the individual, and varying, religious beliefs of ID proponents and their collective and unified affirmations about intelligent design. As individuals they been entirely up front about their personal religious beliefs, and have indicated that they think that ID-science can be understood as compatible with or supporting those beliefs. But they ask for no special treatment for their scientific arguments based on any sympathy for their religious beliefs. They argue from the facts of nature, not from the Bible or some Creed or Confession. * Second, your use of the word "theology" is equivocal. It means something different in the context of ID's response to American legal challenges from what it means in Fuller's discussion. In the former context, it is true that ID has nothing to do with Christian theology, as judges and lawyers were understand "Christian theology"; ID's specific scientific conclusions are *not* derived from or bound to specific Biblical passages, confessional statements, etc. That is why ID is *not* creationism, as that term is understood in the American social context. And the ID people are perfectly correct to insist on that. What Fuller is talking about, on the other hand, is the theological origin of broader notions, such as order in nature and the ability of the human mind to comprehend nature. ID may be "theological" in that sense; but then, *all of modern science* would be theological in that sense, so ID would not be unique in that regard. And that broader sense is not the relevant sense when we are dealing with the irrationalities of American constitutional jurisprudence. So Fuller's point, while historically valid, is not legally and culturally relevant. You mustn't mix up "general metaphysical presuppositions without which there cannot be a modern science of nature" and "specific beliefs about the history of the earth, salvation, etc. particular to YEC or some other version of Christian faith." ID, as a program of design detection, has literally nothing to do with the latter, and ID people are being entirely honest when they say that. "This is what I take to be a logical conclusion of Meyer’s response to Fuller at Cambridge, from what little I know of it. Bring on ID-theodicy and theology into ID’s research agenda for the people of IDM-ID (or set yourself against Stephen C. Meyer…and Jonathan Wells)!" * If, as you admit, you know "little" of Meyer's response, you should not be drawing any conclusions at all about it, but should wait until Meyer speaks more fulsomely on the topic. And I will "set myself against" Meyer and Wells when they publically argue for a version of ID which makes ID into a mere branch of Christian or Moon-ist apologetics. So far, they haven't done that. "Timaeus’ position is a bit like saying “Dawkins' theory is without God,” instead of saying “Dawkins is without God.”" * Both are true. Dawkins is personally without God, and he thinks as a biologist that evolution operates entirely without God, because random mutations filtered by natural selection are -- he supposes -- entirely adequate to explain the march of life. In such a scheme, God -- if he exists at all -- has nothing to do but create the natural laws and watch what chance and time throw out. The only difference between Dawkins and Darwin here is that Dawkins is sure God doesn't exist, whereas Darwin vacillated on that question. But both believe(d) that God had nothing to do with the specific outcomes of evolution. "Timaeus has finally and possibly-bravely stepped to the plate by saying: “ID does not promote a ‘science-only’ discourse.” Yet he could still go further to speak even more clearly and precisely by denying that IDM-ID THEORY is focussed on ‘science-only.’ He comes close to this, however, by speaking about IDM-ID’s ‘philosophical conclusions.’" * ID theory is focused on the question of design in nature. Therefore it will necessarily be focused on questions of natural science. But ID people are thoughtful and sensitive individuals who understand that what we believe about nature (including the origins of natural beings) may have implications for the human world. So they are often found talking about human matters, from a philosophical or theological point of view. But none of their arguments about the flagellum, etc. depend on premises derived from theology or sociology etc. "On the semantic questions, ‘privilege’ is familiar term used in human-social sciences and surely it makes sense to at least some people here on this list." * The "human-social sciences," as you call them, are overwhelmingly dominated by the political and social Left. It is therefore in line with their prejudices that they would employ a loaded word like "privilege" -- which suggests something unearned, unfair, etc. The academic Left is always complaining ("bitching" would be a more honest word if we are trying to capture the tone) that some class or race or sex or institution has unjust "privileges" of one kind or another. But even if it is true that some class or race or sex has "privileges" that is does not merit, it's ludicrous to extend that meaning in the way that you do, to say silly things such as that ID "privileges" natural science. It's a gross misuse of English. You seem to forget that we are in a public forum here, where not everyone is an academic social scientist. For public communication, we should use general educated English, not social-science-speak. Save the in-house academic dialect for your technical papers before sociology audiences. ID does not "privilege" natural science when it investigates biological origins using chemistry and mathematics rather than sociology. It employs the most sensible tools, which are scientific ones. That is not "privileging" anything. "‘Culturology’ likewise is a common term in German-tradition inspired European countries for what would be called ‘Cultural Studies’ in Anglo-American jargon (Stuart Hall, Paul Willis, et al.). Saying he was unfamiliar with it until I used it doesn’t mean it’s unfamiliar to a whole lot of people in a global audience. To me, ‘culturology’ is the preferred term, but I’ll switch back to Anglo-American style if that is easier on Timaeus’ linguistic insecurity. Just say the word…" * The term is barbaric. It's not a matter of linguistic insecurity, it's a matter of an ear for graceful, polished English. Years of reading and teaching the great classics tends to make me more discriminating in the use of language than social scientists are. You might also read Orwell's essay, "Politics and the English Language," and then meditate on what Orwell might have thought of "culturology." "Here I wish to ask: Is the ‘intelligence’ implied by a ‘transcendental designer’ according to IDM-ID (Dembski 2004) best considered as a ‘natural intelligence’ or as some ‘other’ kind of intelligence?" * It's irrelevant for the purposes of design detection. If God wanted to design an alarm clock to wake people up, it would look approximately the same as it does when designed by human engineers. Obviously God is not "natural," but that is irrelevant. ID is not a theory of "supernatural detection"; it's a theory of design detection. You determine, using ID techniques, whether the clock was designed or a freak compound produced by nature; and once you have determined that it was designed, you hand over the question who designed it to the theologians and anthropologists and historians of inventions and others with relevant understanding. "In this case, ‘intelligent design’ of the IDM variety, from what I can make sense of it (besides the occasional claims by people that it is a ‘natural-science-only’ theory), properly and happily could fit into a system of discourse called ‘science, philosophy and religion.’ And so does Human Extension, so I guess we should learn to share space." * I've already said that ID people can and do enter into discussions with philosophers and theologians. Also, some ID people (e.g., Wells) have Ph.D.s in both natural science and theology. Nothing about ID forbids three-way discussion of the type you are talking about. And nothing about ID forbids anyone from being interested in social sciences or in "Human Extension." If anyone publishes anything on "Human Extension" that concerns "design" in a way that is useful to ID thinking, I am sure that ID people will read it and gratefully acknowledge it. But ID per se has no need to endorse or get involved in "Human Extension" as a project. It has its hands full with a huge job as it is. In short, Gregory, no one has anything against your project to study "intelligent design" in the human/social context. It's a perfectly reasonable area of academic investigation, and one of social significance. What we are all trying to figure out is what on earth it's got to do with assessing the arguments of Meyer, Behe, and Dembski against those of Dawkins, Coyne, Miller, Venema, etc. And if it's got no relevance to that, it has no more business being discussed on this site than the subject of new advances in fly fishing.Timaeus
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
06:22 PM
6
06
22
PM
PDT
Gregory- In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design in question. And guess what? Intelligent Design is about the study of design in nature (so that we can hopefully get those answers).Joe
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PDT
“ID is not about the study of ‘designing processes’ — if there is even such a thing. … Design is a mental activity, not a physical one. It’s an activity of thinking. We design things in thought. We manufacture them by physical means. Physical processes we can talk about. Design processes, I don’t see how. I can’t observe your thinking. But I can infer that you have thought something, by looking at what you have done. That’s the heart of the design inference.” – Timaeus Now we’re getting somewhere. Here’s a significant difference between Timaeus’ views and mine. Timaeus appears to conceive of ‘design’ in an abstract, detached, un-embodied way – just the mental, not the physical too – whereas, I’m interested in the nexus of mental and physical. His is a more philosophical or 'ideological' meaning of design, while mine is a more humanistic meaning. This is what allows me to study ‘design processes,’ as Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Horst Rittel, Buckminster Fuller, Genrich Altshuller, Bela Banathy and many others have done. I’d encourage Timaeus to do an internet search for ‘design process’ to begin to learn how it is and has been studied. It is not a ‘thing’ detached from people; it is something people do. Then he can come back here and tell us it doesn’t exist and can’t be studied because he doesn't personally believe it! Likewise, one could (and imo should) ask: which ‘mind/Mind’ is (supposedly) engaging in the ‘mental activity’ of ‘designing’? The analogy with human beings’/our mental activity is obvious. Depending on this analogy to do ‘reverse engineering’ as ‘natural science’ is a creative stretch. “Why should I speak to the dozens of things you want me to speak about, when you won’t speak to the one thing that everyone here keeps asking you about?” - Timaeus First, I asked in this thread for people at UD to speak about one specific thing: Human Extension. (Links were provided for support.) That was and is the purpose of the thread; if I was unclear about that, let me now issue an apology. I am thankful to StephenB for taking up this challenge, which I attempted to address in the previous post, and for kairosfocus’ initial rebuttal, which was already answered. Second, if ‘everyone’ (according to Timaeus) is asking me for answers in biology, then they’ll be waiting a long time for answers, since I’m not a biologist and am not planning a career change into biology anytime soon. Likewise, I’m not willing to speculate about ‘origins of life’ other than to say that as a monotheist, I believe the Creator was directly involved in creating life. If that satisfies you that I think OoL was not an accident or that it was ‘non-random’ or 'guided,' then so be it. If it doesn’t, so be it too. “I have a big objection to ‘alternatives’ that actually replace ID with something that isn’t ID at all, but some grand theory of ‘Design, Reflexivity, Purpose, Values, Social/Human Sciences, and Everything.’ … Theories or ideas with limited aims — like showing the inadequacy of neo-Darwinism, or showing the presence of mathematical information in certain biological structures — can actually add something to human knowledge.” – Timaeus Human Extension is not out to ‘replace ID.’ (Take a deep breath, Timaeus, and let that sink in!) It simply reveals where and how ID is a (properly) limited claim and where Human Extension can succeed where IDM-ID has not (and perhaps does not aim to). But that’s not enough for those people in the IDM who would desire ‘intelligent design’ to be virtually unlimited, who have tightly inter-twined ID with their theologies, biologies and worldviews. Human Extension investigates ‘intelligent agents’ who are involved in building, designing, constructing, acting, composing, doing, making, etc. As a scholarly approach it is predominantly unconcerned with biological information, unless and until it influences human choices. Since studies of choice, planning and human action happen at a very different level of appropriate discourse than studies of biology, physiology, ecology and ‘origins of life,’ there is little reason to fear that Human Extension is set or even interested to compete with IDM-ID theory that is predominantly focussed on biological systems. Human Extension has a clear and limited scope; that which is made by human beings. Sure, that’s still a significantly large realm! The other specific aim it involves is the ending of exaggeration by the ideology called ‘evolutionism.’ No, the focus of Human Extension is not ‘neo-Darwinism,’ but rather ‘evolutionism,’ which is/can be over-come by a suitable alternative. That should now be seen as clear, precise and not ‘too-bloated’ for Timaeus+1 to comprehend. Why? How? Again, it is written in the most concise form of 2 axioms, listed above, which Timaeus has not addressed, seemingly because he mistakenly thinks I’m out to ‘replace ID.’ I have no “contempt for the ID project,” as Timaeus continues to accuse. The IDM-ID project has imo served an important purpose to help make conversations about science, philosophy and religion possible to be put on the table, even if it does so in its own (subtle, nuanced) ‘implicationistic’ way. In fact, I’m quite grateful to the DI for having invited me to their Summer Program and to all of those I met there who helped me to understand both ID theory and the IDM, its mission, goals, plans, ideas, presuppositions, resources, networks, etc. And I’m grateful for many of the discussions I’ve had with IDM-IDers, whether in person, by e-mail or on forums such as this, over the past decade. Recently, I’ve been reading “A Meaningful World: How the Arts and Sciences Reveal the Genius of Nature” (IVP 2006) by Jonathan Witt and Benjamin Wiker. One fascinating feature of their (IDM-ID friendly) book is its reference both to ‘anthropism’ and to ‘disanthropism,’ the latter which is linked to materialism, reductionism, naturalism and the usual ideological opponents of IDM-ID. I met Witt in 2008 and found him a gentle and kind man. The last time I quoted from an ID book that I’d read, called “Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology” (1999), my current accuser of illiteracy, Timaeus, told me he himself hadn’t actually read it and therefore couldn’t engage my specific critique. Has he read it yet? Frankly, I’m not planning on reading Meyer’s big book on biological information anytime soon. I’ve read excerpts from it and reviews. I read his controversial paper published by Richard Sternberg, his “A Scientific History – and Philosophical Defense – of the Theory of Intelligent Design,” which gives an overview of his view of ID, and several other shorter pieces. So, probably I’m not totally ignorant as Timaeus pretends. Additionally, I’ve read and watched or heard interviews or speeches by Dembski, Johnson, Behe, Wells, Nelson, West, Richards, et al. in various places. The point is: what did I get from all of these texts and voices? Not nothing (Walk the Line), that’s for sure! I also read A.N. Whitehead, who imo committed a mistaken inversion when he posited that ‘Process’ comes first, then ‘Extension.’ How can one proceed before they extend?! That turned me, via the visionary work of Marshall McLuhan, onto a way that may make it possible to overcome the ideology of ‘universal evolutionism.’ Hurrah (echo IDM-ID onlookers?)! Still, if all or no-one in the IDM is interested in it, if it is too early for ears to hear, the work will go forward anyway. “If anyone thinks that he or she can detect any place in ID theorizing where religious or philosophical prejudices affect the scientific conclusions reached by ID proponents*, he or she is welcome to point out those places. Gregory has been challenged to point out such places before, and has declined the challenge.” – Timaeus *Yes, once ‘intelligent design’ was theorized in the first place; that’s the warm and bubbly rub, and it’s not a (pejorative) ‘prejudice’* The coining of ID, the ‘in the beginning,’ a eureka moment (which actually wasn’t so, unless one counts respected Dr. Charles Thaxton’s initial coinage of the phrase, in its IDM-inspiring variant), undeniably has “theological roots” (cf. S. Fuller). Without those ‘theological roots,’ indeed, had the founding members of the IDM *not* believed that the world was/is ‘intelligible’ *because* they believe we are created in imago Dei, we would not be having this discussion at this site today. There would be no IDM-ID. This doesn’t, however, have to compromise IDM-ID’s legitimate aspirations toward ‘scientificity’. The ‘theological roots’ should simply be acknowledged up-front and openly, repeatedly, and carefully so that it can be taken off the table of complaints by anti-IDM-IDers that ID has *nothing* to do with religion or theology, when its very foundation is undeniably built on it (yet Timaeus will spin it to suggest that I’ve claimed IDM-ID is ‘religious in nature,’ which I have not said). This is what I take to be a logical conclusion of Meyer’s response to Fuller at Cambridge, from what little I know of it. Bring on ID-theodicy and theology into ID’s research agenda for the people of IDM-ID (or set yourself against Stephen C. Meyer…and Jonathan Wells)! Timaeus’ position is a bit like saying “Dawkins’ theory is without God,” instead of saying “Dawkins is without God.” If he recognised that the ‘without God’ in Dawkins’ theory is an extension of Dawkins being ‘without God,’ then the connection becomes obvious. Is that for some reason invisible or simply a blind spot for Timaeus? Timaeus has finally and possibly-bravely stepped to the plate by saying: “ID does not promote a ‘science-only’ discourse.” Yet he could still go further to speak even more clearly and precisely by denying that IDM-ID THEORY is focussed on ‘science-only.’ He comes close to this, however, by speaking about IDM-ID’s ‘philosophical conclusions.’ “it doesn’t matter to me whether ID conclusions are called ‘scientific’ conclusions or “reasonable philosophical conclusions based on demonstrable science.” Either way, ID can’t be done without reliable science, and either way, ID doesn’t require initial theological assumptions, which is what you appear to be claiming.” – Timaeus Sorry, folks, I’m a ‘can be done,’ rather than a ‘can’t be done’ kinda guy! :) On the semantic questions, ‘privilege’ is familiar term used in human-social sciences and surely it makes sense to at least some people here on this list. Since topics such as naturalism and scientism are raised here, it is obvious that privileging ‘natural sciences’ is of concern to people here. ‘Culturology’ likewise is a common term in German-tradition inspired European countries for what would be called ‘Cultural Studies’ in Anglo-American jargon (Stuart Hall, Paul Willis, et al.). Saying he was unfamiliar with it until I used it doesn’t mean it’s unfamiliar to a whole lot of people in a global audience. To me, ‘culturology’ is the preferred term, but I’ll switch back to Anglo-American style if that is easier on Timaeus’ linguistic insecurity. Just say the word… “It is simply a common-sense use of natural science when natural science is the right thing to use.” – Timaues Yes, of course. That’s exactly the point of my challenge to the limits of IDM-ID. When natural science is *not* “the right thing to use,” that is, when the proper meaning of ‘ID’ clearly overlaps with theology, philosophy and/or social science, this needs to be made explicit, obvious and not under-emphasised. Thus, when a paper or book speaks about a ‘transcendental designer,’ such a paper belongs in a ‘science and religion’ journal, such as “Perspectives of Science and Christian Faith” or “First Things” or CTNS’ “Theology and Science.” It does not belong and should not seek to belong in a ‘biology-only’ or ‘informatics-only’ Journal. Here I wish to ask: Is the ‘intelligence’ implied by a ‘transcendental designer’ according to IDM-ID (Dembski 2004) best considered as a ‘natural intelligence’ or as some ‘other’ kind of intelligence? My work on Human Extension is limited and specific because it deals with ‘human intelligence,’ which could be called ‘natural intelligence.’ But I believe it also involves ‘other’ kinds of intelligence. I am not hesitant or uncertain to say this. ‘Emotional intelligence’ is just one example, a term I obviously didn’t coin, but which makes or can make a big difference in where, how, when and why one ‘extends’ themselves, as a person, in society, etc. A big question, then, is one that Jon Garvey asked (I hope he doesn’t mind me acknowledging his poignant question): is what you mean by ‘design’ the same as what I mean by ‘extension’? I think (at least I hope) that the above message has shown this not to be the case. However, if I were interested to be a ‘design theorist,’ i.e. to study ‘design’ as my prioritised ‘master category,’ it would look something like this: DesignScienceLab. And by the way, I really like the quotation found on that page that says: “The best way to understand a system is to understand the system it fits into.” – Howard Odum In this case, ‘intelligent design’ of the IDM variety, from what I can make sense of it (besides the occasional claims by people that it is a ‘natural-science-only’ theory), properly and happily could fit into a system of discourse called ‘science, philosophy and religion.’ And so does Human Extension, so I guess we should learn to share space. ;)Gregory
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
Gregory, Can you provide an example of a 'thing' that Human Extension can be used to help determine "was it human-made or not and, if so, how was it made, when, where and why?". And could you describe how your 'logic and steps' would answer that question?lastyearon
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
"The purpose of the ID process is clear: Address the question about life’s origins and discern the answer to the question, design or no-design. The logic and the steps involved in the process are well known: **It begins with the observation of data—next, it proceeds with the application of a paradigm–next, it applies a differential diagnosis by considering naturalistic explanations–then, if follows where the evidence leads, and finally, it concludes with an inference to design as the best explanation.**” – StephenB The purpose of Human Extension is to address the question of ‘extensions of man(kind)’ and to discern an answer to the question: was it human-made or not and, if so, how was it made, when, where and why? The logic and the steps involved in this approach are as follows: **It begins with human beings acknowledging they/we are ‘reflexive’ creatures – it studies evidences of things known or believed to be human-made things – it traces the origins and processes involved in the making of these things – it explores the possibility that what appears to be a human-made thing was actually produced by a non-human (e.g. machine or animal), or a natural law (e.g. an evolutionary or ecological process) – it then ‘concludes’ with an ‘inference’ to human extension as the ‘best explanation.’** Human Extension goes further than that, by also studying the notion of ‘tension,’ as it relates to ‘extension,’ since where and how far we extend ourselves, both individually and as groups or communities, is a ‘dynamic’ (in contrast to ‘static’) process, which nevertheless depends on personal choice or choices: to extend and to act in a particular way ‘over-time.’ Does this help to clarify the “steps involved in the Human Extension process,” as you requested, StephenB? It is not what I am suggesting “ID is supposed to use” on the topic of origins of life or origins of biological information, because human choice and human intelligence were not involved in those events, those makings/creations/actualizations of (transcendental, divine or alien) design/etc. Nevertheless, I hope you’ll see that I shaped my answer (especially the last sentence, which I wouldn’t normally have chosen to say ‘concludes with an inference’) based on your “ID process” definition so as to improve the possibility of fruitful communication. Cheers, GregoryGregory
July 26, 2012
July
07
Jul
26
26
2012
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
+1 Timaeus! As a long time lurker, I gotta say that I'm totally blown away that the admins were gracious enough to grant Gregory a guest post. After an original post and over 40 comments of dialogue I'm still not sure what "human extension" is supposed to mean or why it has any relevance to the important work going on in the ID community. Gregory, if you want people to take you seriously, stop ranting about grandiose rubbish, read Meyer, Dembski, or Behe, and express your opinion in coherent prose. Sheesh:-POptimus
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
05:09 PM
5
05
09
PM
PDT
Re: Gregory at 40: *My answers are after the asterisks. "Timaeus believes I have “contempt for the very heart of what they [IDM-IDers] are doing.” "From the OP: “I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there.” That doesn’t sound like someone who has ‘contempt’ the way Timaeus hypothesizes it." *I said that you had contempt for the ID project, not grudges against the people involved. "The purpose of this thread is to introduce an alternative way to look at ID." *I have no objection to alternative ways of looking at anything. I have a big objection to "alternatives" that actually replace ID with something that isn't ID at all, but some grand theory of "Design, Reflexivity, Purpose, Values, Social/Human Sciences, and Everything." Something that vast and bloated in its ambition will accomplish precisely nothing. Theories or ideas with limited aims -- like showing the inadequacy of neo-Darwinism, or showing the presence of mathematical information in certain biological structures -- can actually add something to human knowledge. "It goes much further than IDM-ID in the actual study of ‘intelligent agents,’" *So do most social science and humanities investigations. And ID goes further than sociology in investigating biological origins. So what? Did ID ever claim to provide a "general theory of intelligent agency" that could explain the uses of intelligence in all human actions whatsoever? Why does it need to do so? "and does not require hiding the influence on people of philosophy and theology in ‘doing science.’" *Nor does ID require "hiding" any such influence, where it exists. I've never met a leading ID proponent who hides his personal religious faith; the religious prejudices are out in the open for all to examine. If anyone thinks that he or she can detect any place in ID theorizing where religious or philosophical prejudices affect the scientific conclusions reached by ID proponents, he or she is welcome to point out those places. Gregory has been challenged to point out such places before, and has declined the challenge. "It supports a collaborative discourse of science, philosophy and theology, instead of a ‘science-only’ discourse as promoted by IDM-ID," *ID does not promote a "science-only" discourse, if by that it is meant that only chemistry, biology, etc. are talked about. ID proponents have written books on the metaphysical assumptions of Darwin, books about the religion-science views of A. R. Wallace, books about the political applications of Darwinian theory in Nazi Germany and in the eugenics movement in the USA, books about theodicy, books about the legal aspects of the Dover Trial, books about the rhetoric of the anti-ID movement, books linking literature and the arts to design in nature, etc. An astronomer has collaborated with a philosopher/theologian on design in the cosmos; a collection has brought together Jewish, Catholic and Protestant ID people to relate God to evolution; a collection on "dissent from Darwin" has brought together people as diverse as Christian journal editors, avant-garde theatre producers, professors of Catholic moral theology, former aeronautical engineers turned biophysicists, educational theorists, etc. The idea that the ID community consists wholly of lab junkies in white coats, or that the scientists in the movement never converse with colleagues from other fields of human endeavor, is just empirically unsustainable. Gregory has apparently only read a fraction of the ID literature and has apparently had only a glancing acquaintance (what was it, Gregory, 9 days long, that summer course?) with a small fraction of the ID people. "which Timaeus pretends to support, but not in his heart of hearts regarding ‘the science’." *Nonsense. All that I have ever argued is that it doesn't matter to me whether ID conclusions are called "scientific" conclusions or "reasonable philosophical conclusions based on demonstrable science." Either way, ID can't be done without reliable science, and either way, ID doesn't require initial theological assumptions, which is what you appear to be claiming. "My work is thus presented as a new way forward, a non-naturalistic approach that does not privilege natural science" *There's that silly misuse of "privilege" again, to imply some sort of unwarranted favoritism. There is no "privileging" of natural science when a doctor sends a sample to the lab for analysis, rather than consulting the Bible about the patient's disease. It is simply a common-sense use of natural science when natural science is the right thing to use. And it is not "privileging" natural science to use physics and biochemistry and mathematics, rather than the advice of a sociologist, to determine whether or not random mutations could turn a deer into a whale, etc. To speak of "privileging" in such cases is simply to misuse the English language. But then, that's what sociologists specialize in -- misusing the English language, or massacring it with ugly jargon (like "culturology" -- one I heard just the other day). "Regarding jargon and ‘Timaeus,’ I’ve come to appreciate the words of Umberto Eco, who said: “the cultivated person’s first duty is to be always prepared to rewrite the encyclopaedia.”" *Gregory's argument here amounts to: "A very talented individual, Eco, says that he can use words any way he bloody well wants to, and the world should just have to adjust to his idiosyncratic usage. So I, who am not nearly as talented, have the right to do the same thing, even though *his* breaking of conventional meanings is constructive and educative, and *my* departure from standard meanings is so clumsy that it causes no end of confusion to all my readers and makes communication almost impossible." That's just a silly argument. And in fact, I don't even grant the imperious right of redefinition to someone as bright as Eco. We are social animals, and it's socially irresponsible (and selfish) to expect others to struggle to grasp your meaning when you could put it across much more easily in conventional language. 99% of the time, those who use words strangely are either simply unclear about the meanings of words (i.e., haven't done their homework, have picked up wrong meanings "by ear", etc.), or are trying to impress others with obscurity pretending to be profundity. I may have many faults -- I'm sure I do -- but one thing I've never been accused of is being an unclear writer. And the reason I'm not unclear is that I don't depart from conventional meanings, or even employ technical jargon, without an extremely good reason. If someone is departing from conventional meanings all the times, there is something wrong. And with very few exceptions, people who are not clear writers are not clear thinkers. "Instead, my interest is and has been for over a decade to promote a neology (new word) that can overcome some of the barriers that have been erected in the controversy over evolution, creation and intelligent design." *No such new word is necessary. The traditional language of teleology and chance, worked out ages ago by brighter minds than any of those debating today, is sufficient to make the public see the issues. One simply has to take a side: "I think chance could do it" or "I don't think chance could do it." Gregory has shown repeatedly that he is unwilling to take a side. He has no opinion, or withholds his opinion. And he covers up that lack of intellectual courage with impenetrable jargon and grand calls for a bold new way of understanding. The TEs of BioLogos -- or most of them -- have that same lack of intellectual courage; they affirm contradictories and cover the contradiction up with blurry misuses of terms like "providence"; they won't say clearly whether or not chance could do it, either. People like Dawkins and Behe, on the other hand, are luminously clear in their thinking -- reflected in the luminous clarity of their writing. Their intellectual courage goes hand in hand with a refusal to be obscure or overly complex in their vocabulary and argumentation. They want the reader to know where they stand, not how advanced their training in abstruse philosophy of science is. "“As virtually everyone here admits, the relevant sense of ‘intelligence’ [in IDM-ID] is based initially on human intelligence.” – Steve Fuller "Why not then go further in studying this “relevant sense of intelligence” at a level of meaning that can resonate with more people" *Why not, indeed? I say to Gregory: go for it! But don't claim that what you are doing is "real" ID and what the ID people have done up to now is somehow inadequate or substandard ID, that needs to be corrected by your brilliant social science insights. Just do your work on the nature of human intelligence, publish it in whatever academic journals will accept it, and let *the ID people themselves* decide whether, and how much, your work is relevant to what they are doing. Stop imperializing and telling them that they ought to use your work, that they need your work, etc. They know what they need when they see it. Make yourself useful, and offer your work freely to ID people; but don't try to give orders to those who are far senior to you, both in biological age and in the study of design. It's impertinent, both socially and academically. "What makes Timaeus so arrogantly deluded to think that his copycat approach to IDM-ID is so incredibly important that most people should pay homage to it," *This is just silly. I don't think people should pay any attention to me at all unless I offer good arguments. I don't think people should pay homage to me or anyone -- not even to Steve Fuller, or Marshall McLuhan, or Berdyaev, or any of Gregory's heroes. Nor do I think people should pay homage to Gregory and his sociology Ph.D. and his self-published e-book. They should pay homage to good thinking and try to learn to do more of it themselves. "to change their outlook on life and meaning and values" *Rubbish. I've never asked anyone to do that. If I've given arguments that cause people to rethink such matters, that's one thing; but I've never asked anyone to change on my authority. "IDM-ID is openly displayed as a ‘science-only’ perspective. It is interested predominantly, if not exclusively in ‘design in nature.’ Yet the way you frame it, Timaeus, ID is actually more about philosophy and worldview than it is about ‘science;’ it looks at questions of meaning and purpose. Natural science, however, doesn’t do that, which shows plainly that Timaeus-ID differs from IDM-ID." *Natural science doesn't directly address meaning and purpose, but it doesn't follow that its discoveries has no implications for meaning and purpose. The Discovery fellows have said this a thousand times. "Regarding “the connection between the biological questions and the human, existential questions,” is Timaeus too viciously in self-denial and out to get me at all costs not to understand that this is exactly what I’ve been speaking about all along?" *If that's what you've been speaking about all along, you're an extremely unclear writer. May I suggest taking the time to edit down the bloated prose, strike out ambiguous expressions and replace them with clearer ones, etc.? And maybe answer my direct questions about biology, instead of evading them? *(And I'm not "out to get you" -- that's your paranoia speaking. I simply disagree with what I take to be false statements, whoever utters them. The fact that you post so often means you are more likely to be contradicted by me than someone who posts less often. The other factor, of course, is that I know the ID literature much better than you do, and therefore often catch you saying false things. But the cure for that is not to fantasize that I am out to get you; the cure for that is to do your homework. Instead of writing several posts trumpeting your hyperbolic interpretation of Meyer's latest remark to Fuller, a remark which you know of only secondhand, sit down, as I did, and read Meyer's 500-page book and learn what he thinks about the origin of life. You'd be surprised how much less we would disagree if you showed precise knowledge of what ID people have said.) "Timaeus’ ID position is far too atomistic, divisive and un-reflexive to satisfy my existential needs as a living person, not just as a rationalistic blog persona with a tongue-ache." *It's not my job to satisfy "your existential needs as a living person". It's the job of your therapist, your priest, your parents, your wife, your kids, your childhood friends, your college buddies and your dog to do that. And anyone who tries to satisfy such needs in an impersonal medium such as this is courting emotional disaster. "Yet why does IDM-ID not explore ‘designing processes’ since that would involve a ‘designer/Designer,’ Timaeus?" *Because ID is not about the study of "designing processes" -- if there is even such a thing. It is about detecting the existence or non-existence of design. I have no idea what you mean by "designing processes," unless it is what all the great philosophers and writers have simply called "thinking." Design is a mental activity, not a physical one. It's an activity of thinking. We design things in thought. We manufacture them by physical means. Physical processes we can talk about. Design processes, I don't see how. I can't observe your thinking. But I can infer that you have thought something, by looking at what you have done. That's the heart of the design inference. "It is not that “biological questions are unimportant questions ... What is more important is to invest the conversation with meaning, purpose, goals, ethics, plans, dreams, values, etc. which are *not* to be found in biology," *Invest away. I have no objection. All those things are eminently worth talking about. But they still don't answer the question whether the bacterial flagellum, or the human brain, could have arisen by accident, or required design. Why should I speak to the dozens of things you want me to speak about, when you won't speak to the one thing that everyone here keeps asking you about? "In other words, instead of being narrowly specialistic and atomistic, indeed, as pseudo-naturalistic as IDM-ID is currently framed, concentrated on ‘design in nature,’ Fuller’s view and my own are more generalistic and holistic," *Be as generalistic and holistic as you like. Just don't condescend to the people who are doing the real natural scientific work that neither you nor Fuller have the training to do. "We care about people and intelligence and relationships and choices and the institutions, communities and structures that result from them," *As if I don't, or as if other ID people don't. You and Fuller aren't saints, paragons of justice and compassion and civic responsibility, and ID people aren't cold scientific robots. I would wager that scores of ID people I know personally have done more acts of charity and civic utility than you have in the past 12 months; I can't speak for Fuller.Timaeus
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
Correction: What I am asking you to provid(e), though, is the specific process, i.e, the steps (from start to finish) that you think ID should use to arrive at the right conclusions about origins (and, if you like, the proper role of humans).StephenB
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
Gregory @40, perhaps you missed my clarification @39. I am asking for the STEPS INVOLVED in the “human extension” process that you are recommending for ID Note that further claims to the effect that it should be used do not speak to the question of HOW it can be used. I have already provided, in 45 words, the steps involved in the ID process. I could have just as easily have explained Creation Science, Theistic Evolution, and Darwinistic processes, all of which differ from ID in the sense that each begins with a faith commitment that ends with a foregone conclusion. What I am asking you to provid, though, is the specific process, i.e, the steps, (from start to finish) that you think ID should use to arrive at the right conclusions about origins (and, if you like, the proper role of humans).StephenB
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
02:02 PM
2
02
02
PM
PDT
Given the respect for Timaeus’ IDM-ID defence by several visitors here at UD, it would be interesting to hear if people think Timaeus should try to publish an academic paper about ID in (a) legitimate journals, or instead remain an anonymous blog-contributor. Could he succeed in publishing a ‘positive paper’ at an academic level about IDM-ID (or Timaeus-ID) if he tried, rather than just offering negative defences of IDM-ID in safe places? That would do something to show he is or could be a meaningful player in this conversation. Timaeus believes I have “contempt for the very heart of what they [IDM-IDers] are doing.” This could be seen as a significant charge, but I take it as just empty rhetoric as usual from Timaeus because finally he is confronted with a view that challenges IDM-ID (and thus also Timaeus-ID). I hold no contempt for IDM-ID, but rather serve to offer friendly and timely correction to it, which seems to have been verified by the historical record. From the OP: “I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there.” That doesn’t sound like someone who has ‘contempt’ the way Timaeus hypothesizes it. He is a master (textual scholar) of putting words in peoples’ mouths and regularly demonstrates the pretence to speak on behalf of ‘ID people,’ as demonstrated above in this thread. The purpose of this thread is to introduce an alternative way to look at ID. Timaeus is doing his best to de-rail that purpose, to distract from it, to discuss anything but Human Extension. But the main point remains: Human Extension offers an alternative way to look at ID, that is reflexive, goal-oriented, purpose-ful, that involves ethics, values, choices, decisions, dreams and plans of ‘intelligent agents’ (i.e. the latter which IDM-ID claims to address, but fails to do so specifically). It goes much further than IDM-ID in the actual study of ‘intelligent agents,’ and does not require hiding the influence on people of philosophy and theology in ‘doing science.’ It supports a collaborative discourse of science, philosophy and theology, instead of a ‘science-only’ discourse as promoted by IDM-ID, which Timaeus pretends to support, but not in his heart of hearts regarding 'the science'. Personally, I just don’t think IDM-ID is enough of a good thing to be worth martyrdom (as Timaeus has publically claimed he would be faced with if real, not just virtual, people knew that he supported IDM-ID). I don’t think IDM-ID has gained enough credibility with distinguished, faithful scholars (even those who considered it with an open mind, unbiased as possible) and doubt it ever will, because of its ‘science-only’ and ‘in nature’ insistence. And I still don’t think it has distanced itself enough from its funding channels in ‘evangelical American culture’ as it had planned (Dembski 2003, 2004), nor made a necessary effort to distance itself from what Timaeus called ‘bad science,’ i.e. from young earth creationism (aka creation science). My work is thus presented as a new way forward, a non-naturalistic approach that does not privilege natural science, which IDM-sympathetic readers can consider for themselves, given its focus on topics relevant to everyone in the human family. Regarding jargon and ‘Timaeus,’ I’ve come to appreciate the words of Umberto Eco, who said: “the cultivated person’s first duty is to be always prepared to rewrite the encyclopaedia.” ‘Timaeus’ would seemingly rather regurgitate the words of others, than cultivate his own forward-looking understanding of humanity in relation to science, philosophy and religion, and that is of course his prerogative. I am not trying to nor am I in any position to take that 'historian of ideas' backwardness away from him. Instead, my interest is and has been for over a decade to promote a neology (new word) that can overcome some of the barriers that have been erected in the controversy over evolution, creation and intelligent design. My first publication on this topic was in 2005. It is a conceptualisation that many IDM-ID supporters could easily learn to embrace and doesn’t threaten the work in biology or information studies conducted by Douglas Axe, the Biologic Institute, and whatever other natural scientists are doing research in the name of IDM-ID. In this sense, it is ‘safe’ for the IDM to consider an option that they already foretold via the Wedge Document (1998), which claimed ‘intelligent design’ would become relevant and widespread in human-social sciences. News Flash: it hasn’t and it won’t, as a result of the ‘in nature’ and ‘natural-science’ priority of the currently limited IDM-ID conceptualisation. Human Extension offers a forward-looking (trans-humanist) alternative between naturalistic, materialistic and humanistic sciences and the claims of IDM-ID leaders that ID is (and can possibly be) about ‘nature-only’ and ‘science-only.’ Human Extension challenges those who say ID is simply not capable of witnessing processes of ‘intelligent agency’ all around us on a daily basis, of ‘designing’ that is real and visible and ‘empirical.’ This is the ‘intelligent design’ that most people 'intuitively' (cf. Jon Garvey's link above) recognise; it is something greater than mere 'naturalism' and is more personally meaningful than what IDM-ID has yet confronted. “As virtually everyone here admits, the relevant sense of ‘intelligence’ [in IDM-ID] is based initially on human intelligence.” – Steve Fuller Why not then go further in studying this “relevant sense of intelligence” at a level of meaning that can resonate with more people than just those who might like to spend their days doing ‘textual scholarship’ and trading in ‘history of ideas,’ or in ‘origins of life’ research or in a biology laboratory or measuring plants or studying the feces of animals? What makes Timaeus so arrogantly deluded to think that his copycat approach to IDM-ID is so incredibly important that most people should pay homage to it, to change their outlook on life and meaning and values, to consider it a ‘scientific revolution,’ as the IDM typically does? I submit it is hubris; the hubris of a man who refuses to produce respectable science or to break new ground or to think independent thoughts for himself. “ID is no mere scientific frivolity, no mere attempt to, say, determine how many legs a millipede has, just for the sake of satisfying some butterfly-collecting form of curiosity. It goes to the heart of the question whether there is rational order in the universe, and in particular, the question whether man is a cosmic accident, or the intended result of a mind and hence possessed of a meaningful destiny.” – Timaeus IDM-ID is openly displayed as a ‘science-only’ perspective. It is interested predominantly, if not exclusively in ‘design in nature.’ Yet the way you frame it, Timaeus, ID is actually more about philosophy and worldview than it is about ‘science;’ it looks at questions of meaning and purpose. Natural science, however, doesn’t do that, which shows plainly that Timaeus-ID differs from IDM-ID. Regarding “the connection between the biological questions and the human, existential questions,” is Timaeus too viciously in self-denial and out to get me at all costs not to understand that this is exactly what I’ve been speaking about all along? Hello, wake up, textual scholar! I’ve been saying that ‘intelligent design,’ properly understood, is a combination of scientific, philosophical and theological domains. Biology can only assist us to better confront the existential questions of human life that face us all, whether on a daily basis or in those still, quiet moments when we question our meaning, purpose and humanity, when we ask 'Why?'. The topic of ID is historically and inevitably ‘about US,’ since it is people who ‘do science,’ who ‘do philosophy’ and who ‘do theology’ and who (in the global majority) live religious lives. Timaeus’ ID position is far too atomistic, divisive and un-reflexive to satisfy my existential needs as a living person, not just as a rationalistic blog persona with a tongue-ache. “So should scientists and philosophers and theologians stop studying questions of origins, and devote their attention to social analyses of popular television shows?” – Timaeus No, of course not. They should study both questions of origins *and* questions of processes. They should recognise the main topics, limitations and proper fields of their studies; e.g. ‘embodied intelligence’ properly involves human beings, reflexively, and biologists are doing either science-fiction or zoology to suggest otherwise. The belief that we can "Think God's thoughts after Him" can inform biology, why not? Should natural scientists stop studying questions of processes because they are entirely fixated on origins? No. Yet why does IDM-ID not explore ‘designing processes’ since that would involve a ‘designer/Designer,’ Timaeus? It is not that “biological questions are unimportant questions and that ID people [again that possessive term, since Timaeus doesn’t seem to learn – I would get tired having him pretend to speak for me, under a ‘big tent’ at UD] should stop talking about them.” What is more important is to invest the conversation with meaning, purpose, goals, ethics, plans, dreams, values, etc. which are *not* to be found in biology, but rather in the human-social sciences, along with philosophy and religion or theology. In other words, instead of being narrowly specialistic and atomistic, indeed, as pseudo-naturalistic as IDM-ID is currently framed, concentrated on ‘design in nature,’ Fuller’s view and my own are more generalistic and holistic, involving both empirical data as well as comparative historical and theoretical approaches. We care about people and intelligence and relationships and choices and the institutions, communities and structures that result from them, not some implicationist proto-scientific view that was initiated as much for US-oriented evangelical apologetics as for natural science. StephenB asked a fair, precise and challenging question: “How, specifically, is the process of human extension applied to the problem of origins?” Human Extension is specifically applied to the problem of the origin of human-made things, which result from choices and actions. Human-made things do not simply ‘evolve’ according to some random process or arise or emerge as a result of environmental pressures. Instead, they extend from the power of human choices. Human Extension thus circumscribes the ideology of ‘universal evolutionism’ without touching on the topic of ‘origins of life’ or ‘origins of biological information.’ It charts a new course forward, outside of the mission of IDM-ID and beyond it.Gregory
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
--Gregory: "p.s. just now noticing that StephenB has asked a pertinent question about Human Extension…so that will be the topic of another post." Gregory, my question to you is very simple: It is about your process of human extension and how it works. The following is a template that you can follow if you have difficulty conceiving the meaning of a process or its rationale: The purpose of the ID process is clear: Address the question about life’s origins and discern the answer to the question, design or no-design. The logic and the steps involved in the process are well known: **It begins with the observation of data—next, it proceeds with the application of a paradigm--next, it applies a differential diagnosis by considering naturalistic explanations--then, if follows where the evidence leads, and finally, it concludes with an inference to design as the best explanation.** Please do likewise. This will not require 2000 words. Notice that I described the ID process in 45 words. I am well aware of your disdain for ID’s process (though you made it clear @35 that you do not yet understand it) but I want to know if you can provide a reasoned alternative. Please provide the STEPS INVOLVED in the "human extension" process that you are recommending for ID --the process that you think ID should use to arrive at the right conclusions about origins (and, if you like, the proper role of humans)---from start to finish.StephenB
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PDT
P.S. to note 37: Since the expression "forked tongue" often implies dishonest motives, and therefore may offend you, Gregory, I'll withdraw it. I got carried away by a catchy expression, and didn't consider the possible reception of the expression. Let me say instead: "You appear to be contradicting yourself again."Timaeus
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
12:58 PM
12
12
58
PM
PDT
Gregory: You are speaking with a forked tongue yet again. Earlier, on another thread, I asked you to explain your previous denials that notions of "design" were appropriate to biology. You then "rescued" yourself with a qualification, indicating that what you really meant was: A. "‘design thinking’ does not belong (read: is not appropriate) in biology…for those who do not believe in ‘design’ already beyond biology." In other words, you qualified your earlier, unqualified rejection of the ID project (of looking for design in living nature) in such a way as to indicate that you could, under certain conditions, support such a project. Now, in speaking to StephenB above, what have you written? Let's look: B. "The theory coined by IDM-ID (Thaxton, Johnson, Meyer, Dembski, Nelson, Wells, etc.) instead focuses on ‘origins of life’ and ‘origins of biological information;’ it is attempting to manipulate the meaning of ‘natural science’ by conflating ‘teleological’ fields with fields that are outside the reach of human reflexivity." Notice that the qualification -- concerning whether or not someone believes in design beyond biology -- has been dropped. The new statement lacks this or any other qualification. Presumably such a direct, unqualified statement represents your own precise view of the matter. So what ID is doing is "conflating" (with the connotation "illegitimately" plainly intended) "fields that are outside the reach of human reflexivity" (in context here: biological origins). So now you are back to saying -- since you have dropped the qualification -- that teleological thinking, i.e., design thinking, does *not* apply to questions of biological origins. Such an application, you are saying, would be a "conflation" of different fields, and a "manipulation" (the word being used here, in context, with negative connotations) of the (sc. proper) meaning of "natural science." You are back to disagreeing with Fuller. Either you are writing very sloppily, Gregory (which is not surprising, since your posts are far too long and too vast in scope for literary control), or your actual thought is confused. Which is it? Now, while we are here, I'd like to go back to your original qualification, given in A. above. I was far too easy on it before. I didn't read it carefully enough. Let's examine it again. Since *all* ID people believe that there is design beyond biology -- in fact, every rational human being acknowledges that there is design beyond biology -- your qualification gives away the farm. If we take your qualified statement as your true position, then you must believe, out of logical necessity, that ID people legitimately talk about design in biology. But this concession would make nonsense of your constant, biting attacks on the alleged foolishness or groundlessness of the ID project. Yes, it is legitimate to look for design rather than chance as the origin of living systems; or no, it isn't legitimate -- which is your actual position, Gregory? Can you give us a single, terse, well-organized, logically coherent, five-sentence paragraph, which clears all the muddy waters your previous posts have left behind, and leaves us in no doubt about your position? And can you put a cherry on top at the end by giving us a concrete example, e.g., Behe is/is not reasonable in his attempt to infer design from the data provided by nature, and therefore his rebuttal of the likes of Dawkins is/is not a legitimate activity for a biochemist interested in the question of origins? I don't want a 10,000-word diatribe on reflexivity, social science, philosophy of science, etc. I want a clear paragraph with a succinct statement of what you think on the question I've asked. If you give me that, without the jargon, and without all the edge and jabs that frequently litter your posts -- I'll respond. If you can't or won't do this, I'll leave you to the others.Timaeus
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
11:37 AM
11
11
37
AM
PDT
“GS would get more of an audience if he did not come across as dismissive of ID as it is.” – KF Yes, that’s recognised and understood. You should likewise understand, KF that I cannot be fully supportive of IDM-ID because of the disagreements already expressed. If IDM-ID could completely cleanse itself of its politics and desire for ‘cultural renewal,’ then it would no longer be IDM-ID, would it? There is no ideal 'theory of intelligent design/Intelligent Design' that exists in a vacuum, safe from any contamination by personality, or in this case community, influence. We should learn to live with that, shouldn't we? I’m not outright dismissing IDM-ID (like most monotheists, I accept small-id, but not Big-ID) and reserve the right to believe it is misguided and pseudo-naturalistic. Is that right acceptable to you and would you like to engage with an alternative way to look at ID, which may open up doors IDM-ID cannot? Stonewalling me and not addressing Human Extension just serves as a safe escape route for the time being, while the real and significant challenges to IDM-ID remain, even if they are understood generally but not specifically by IDM-ID proponents. “developing and demonstrating sound scientific conclusions,” as you say, KF, is indeed crucial and ever-present for the work I’m involved in. What would make you think otherwise? It is a focus and dedication to ‘sound scientific conclusions’ that drives me. However, unfortunately, this type of ‘science’ related to human beings and our future doesn’t currently fall within the paradigmatic scope of IDM-ID, and thus you are likely promoted and even pressured (by natural-scientistic IDMers) to dismiss it. Regarding my sociological approach to IDM-ID, it is enough to say that we all ‘tend to analyze’ things through our own lenses, StephenB. I don’t see why you should be any different or why you don’t allow me the humanity of doing this, since you likewise do it yourself. ‘Double-standard’ would seem an appropriate term for your position on this topic; double-standard in the defence of IDM-ID. My interests in sociology, economics, philosophy and theology are the lens through which I look at ID, with side-interests in anthropology, psychology and ‘origins of life’ – the latter being one of the most speculative fields in all of science. Movements often involve all of these things, StephenB, which is demonstrated by the wide range of topics posted here at UD. Was the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) bailing out banks in the United States ‘intelligently designed?’ Was the ‘reset’ button extended from Hillary Clinton (the USA) to Sergei Lavrov (Russian Federation) ‘intelligently designed’ (in this case, the actual translation from English into Russian was ‘overheat’ instead of ‘restart,’ so much for a competent translator!)? Once one recognizes the IDM-ID dependency on ‘intelligence’ analogy with human-made things, as even Timaeus admitted above, all of these topics become live for the study of ‘designs’ that involve ‘intelligence.’ Wouldn’t you rather have someone interested in science, philosophy and religion discourse unveiling and amplifying this instead of someone interested in a ‘warfare model,’ a NOMA perspective or a scientistic approach to knowledge and relationships? “As virtually everyone here admits, the relevant sense of ‘intelligence’ is based initially on human intelligence. But why should our intelligence be taken as a guide to intelligence in things we had nothing to do with creating? Well, this is where the imago dei doctrine comes in.” – Steve Fuller “I can’t explain this to Gregory because he doesn’t even know what I mean by the word ‘process’—even after I explain it.” – StephenB O.k. then, try to explain to me, please: where are ‘designing processes’ involved in current IDM-ID theory; how do they come into play? Where are they described? Name them; references to texts and figures are welcome. From what I can see, ‘design process’ is a forbidden phrase in IDM-ID. Why? Because that would mean involving the ‘designer/Designer,’ which is disallowed. I study processes of ‘design’ (& other related terms) on a daily basis, StephenB, as do most human-social scientists. This is part of our legitimate scholarly domain; people are purposeful, goal-oriented, make plans, etc. If you’re only concerned with (natural or supernatural) origins of biological information, then you’re likely to be fumbling un-scholarly on the meaning of ‘process’ as most people understand it. Bring in mathematician-philosopher A.N. Whitehead’s “Process and Reality,” if you like; bring in whichever scholar you choose who actually studies ‘designing processes.’ Otherwise, I’m left to believe you’ve got nothing to back up your remarks with and are rather dismissive of a new perspective that you don’t want to bother to try to understand. You speak again and again and again about ‘ID Science.’ But I’ve told you, StephenB, I do not accept that name as a reality and that your goal of proving or displaying the ‘scientificity’ of ID has not succeeded (neither with me nor with several others at UD, nor with a vast majority of natural scientists). Knocking a plastic hammer against a diamond here by repeating the term ‘ID Science’ as if it is real is thus without consequence. You have not, and neither has the IDM’s case for ID, yet succeeded in proving this. Do you not understand that this is your burden to prove, according to IDM-ID rules, rather than to assume everyone will accept it? Repetition does not equate with persuasion re: IDM-ID’s supposed scientificity. The main issue I’ve introduced in this thread is not about reframing ‘intelligent design’ according to social epistemology. Rather, it is to recognize that social epistemology (SE) is already-inevitably involved in IDM-ID; this is an important contribution already. It makes no sense to resist this interpretation since ‘truth cannot contradict truth.’ You would be better fit, StephenB, to welcome SE looking at ID for truths about human nature that it reveals and provides. If an anti-theistic SE comes along trying to squash ID, you’ll see a big difference in the approach; in fact you see it already when people lump IDM-IDers together as idiots and charlatans (which, of course, they generally are not). Can you see the difference here? Human Extension, as it is framed above and elsewhere, offers a much better option because it insists upon science, philosophy, religion dialogue. It highlights meaning, purpose, ethics, values and choices, that is, it includes human-social sciences as partners alongside of and in addition to natural-physical sciences and demands space at the dialogue table where IDM-ID also seeks audience. Why would IDM-ID advocates be opposed to recognizing that ID belongs in a triadic discourse, rather than in a singular ‘science-only one? If you’re not against it, then declare yourself openly for this triadic position. Such is the time for Timaeus to shuffle his feet and perhaps to come up with something reconciliatory. Human beings choose to ‘design’ things; they/we actively participate in ‘designing’ and are influenced and affected by the results of our ‘designing.’ The theory coined by IDM-ID (Thaxton, Johnson, Meyer, Dembski, Nelson, Wells, etc.) instead focuses on ‘origins of life’ and ‘origins of biological information;’ it is attempting to manipulate the meaning of ‘natural science’ by conflating ‘teleological’ fields with fields that are outside the reach of human reflexivity. The mainstay of ‘design theory’ (not ‘intelligent design theory’) is (read: should be) thus in human-made things, which is what Human Extension demonstrates, enhances and explores. Stating that the origin of life and the world is ‘intelligently designed’ as a ‘design argument’ belongs more in theology and apologetics than it does in natural sciences. But why should that be a topic impossible to acknowledge? “The ID scientist uses the same method to detect design in nature that the anthropologist uses to detect design in an ancient hunter’s spear.” – StephenB Then why are there *no anthropologists* hired and listed as Fellows by the DI? Stop and answer, please, and don’t avoid it! One would think that if IDM-ID wished to copy or to imitate ‘anthropological methods,’ as StephenB suggests, then the DI would at least want to involve actual anthropologists in their program in order to educate themselves about ‘anthropological methods.’ But they haven’t and they continue to inadequately take into consideration ‘human design’ as a legitimate field of study on a theoretical level. They instead depend on analogy with human-made things, such as Hume addressed in the 18th century and underplay the significance of the dependency. Sure, engineers ‘design’ things and can be consulted as ‘designers.’ I am surely not denying this. But engineers predominantly are not properly trained to ‘theorise’ about design and do not usually study the ‘designing process’ scientifically *as a process*. This is where KF is right to tip hat to TRIZ (and other such examples of history, philosophy and sociology of science); an actual example of scholars studying (or who studied) ‘design’ scientifically via indexing engineering solutions to technical problems. Non-engineers are better suited for the topic of ‘design theorising’ based on/related to human artifacts than engineers; while likewise, I wouldn’t want a theoretician to build an engineering project – each to their vocational task. Yet the IDM-ID doesn’t appear to recognise or value this distinction; it acts ‘scientistic’ instead, while at the same time claiming to oppose scientism of a similar variety. It is in a wedge-inspired mess, which the admission by Stephen C. Meyer to Steve Fuller at Cambridge can finally help to correct. What’s needed most, then, is a humanistic correction to IDM-ID’s focus on ‘design in nature’ as a kind of naturalistic-ID. There is talk of ‘transcendence,’ sure, but that’s just hearsay, nothing to do with the so-called ‘science of ID.’ That’s where Human Extension enters the arena and provides a legitimate alternative that differs from and is not part of IDM-ID. It can appeal to ‘extended phenotype’ Dawkinsists, just as much as YEC, micro-macro Paul Nelsonists. Those who would choose to oppose Human Extension as an example of small-id in the human-social sciences may provide the best demonstration yet of anti-humanists among the camp of theists. The main point here is not to ask ID to “incorporate theological principles as part of its methodology,” but rather to acknowledge that ID is a science, philosophy, religion/theology (SPR) discourse, first and foremost, inescapably, without shame or remorse. SPR is a sovereign and growing field of study worth pursuing with interdisciplinary vigour. A move in this direction will help ID to ‘take humanity seriously’ because right now, we (people, us) are not on its research agenda. And I find that to be a shame worth forgetting, don’t you, StephenB? ID is not ‘pure science.’ It is not ‘mathematically proven’ or ‘statistically fool-proof’ (though Dembski has suggested this is coming). It is not an ontological truth that trumps any and all epistemology from being necessarily involved, because human beings are reflexive, interpretive creatures. If you want to admit that we think, feel, emote, act, interpret, love, dream, criticise, etc. because we are nature-plus, that’s fine too. This will help to over-come the naturalistic tendency in IDM-ID, which is displayed in its “mainly in biology” priority. One of the goals of Human Extension is to elevate us above simple naturalistic language into a higher level of discussion. I had thought this was something that IDM-IDers were trying to do also, and would openly embrace as a non-IDM-ID approach. But instead, it seems that ‘protecting the paradigm’ has become the highest aim and output for some people at UD. Thus, the failure to deal forthrightly with Human Extension may be a preferred strategy. I’ve asked for criticism of Human Extension at UD. kairosfocus did it very briefly in post #1. I answered him in post #21, showing him a new way to see things, and he didn’t respond again with clear and concise feedback. No one else has addressed Human Extension and the basic 2 Axioms shown in this thread. p.s. just now noticing that StephenB has asked a pertinent question about Human Extension…so that will be the topic of another post.Gregory
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
--Gregory: “In my notes from the 2008 DI Summer Program on ID, Stephen C. Meyer defines ‘intelligent design’ (uncapitalised) as: “The choice of an intelligent agent to actualise a possibility.” This comes much closer to comfortable territory for me as a human-social scientist/scholar.” Is this another example of your proclivity to hear only what you want to hear? In this case, Meyer was talking about the process by which the cause (intelligence) produces the effect (the actualized possibility). ID science is the process by which researcher observes the effect (the actualized possibility), and infers the cause (intelligence). The event: Moving forward from cause to effect. The detection of the event: Moving backward from effect to cause. The difference is kind of important --“A new possibility has been put on the table in front of you with the notion of Human Extension. Who is interested to examine it and to ask questions, to challenge it or at least to reason about it?” I have a question. How, specifically, is the process of human extension applied to the problem of origins? What I am after here is not yet another assertion that it ought to applied but rather a detailed description of how it is possible and what it would look like. Include the words faith and empirical observation and indicate how they can be integrated into a single coherent paradigm. Describe it from beginning to end. If you cannot do this, then you really don't have an idea but are simply entertaining amalgamation of unrelated concepts looking for some kind of unity.StephenB
July 25, 2012
July
07
Jul
25
25
2012
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply