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Guest Post: Constancy of Self in Light of Near Death Experiences – A Disproof of Materialism

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The following is a guest post be nkendall:

One of the striking things about our experience as conscious, thinking humans is how constant our sense of self–our identity–is. Never in my life has there been any suspension or change of my conscious sense of who I am other than during sleep. Throughout our lives our brains change considerably. A myriad of new synaptic connections are formed especially in the early years. Yet one’s identity is immutable. Aside from these ongoing modifications of the brain, there are catastrophic changes as well. Those who have experienced surgery under general anesthesia or suffered cardiac arrest have had their brains shut down and consciousness suspended even if only briefly. Near death experiences represent a more profound disruption of consciousness often involving complete cessation of detectable brain activity. Yet we know from countless surgeries conducted under general anesthesia and near death experiences that one’s consciousness, sense of self and mental faculties, i.e. memories, knowledge, beliefs, etc. are usually fully restored even in extreme cases following the event. Why is it that our sense of self is so constant even when the brain is subjected to change and catastrophic effects? What material causal processes in the brain could account for this constancy of self?

Near death experiences are dismissed by materialists as hallucinations resulting from a brain in distress; this despite the fact that many near death type experiences occur when the subject is not near death and even cases where multiple persons witness the events, i.e. “shared death experiences”. Nevertheless, materialists believe that by dismissing near death experiences as hallucinations they are safeguarding their materialist world view. The reality is that when materialists make this claim they are unwittingly embracing an explanation that disproves materialism. If the near death experiences are hallucinations, they cannot be hallucinations of a material brain, they can only be hallucinations of an immaterial mind. The reason is simple: the brain, being an electro-chemical computer in a sense, cannot possibly generate vast quantities of novel, continuous, unique, complex specified information spontaneously especially when it involves unearthly and ineffable visual and abstract mental content which accompany near death experiences. The brain cannot even account for the complex specified information we experience in our nightly dreams. It requires a callous disregard of reason to believe that a brain in distress could spontaneously produce an interactive audio-video experience, with the most real, unearthly and spectacular mental phenomena one has ever experienced. There are no material process that could account for this even in principle. Furthermore, out of body experiences associated with near death experiences, also dismissed as hallucinations by materialists, cannot be hallucinations if what the subject is experiencing is real and can be corroborated as such. And in fact several, and perhaps many, out of body experiences have been corroborated to some extent.

The last refuge of materialism is simply to dismiss near death experiences as a bunch of unverifiable anecdotes. The subjective nature of near death experiences and the timing as to when they actually occur, make it difficult to disprove materialism based on human testimony alone. Therefore, I want to take a different approach in order to disprove materialism with respect to near death experiences. I want to focus on the materialist claim that consciousness, one’s sense of self, along with memories, knowledge and beliefs could be restored by material processes unaided by an immaterial mind following a near death experience. First lets take a brief look at materialist claims about the brain.

Although it is not known or even imaginable how our mental experiences could be reducible to physical phenomena in the brain; nevertheless, that is what materialists believe. According to materialism, consciousness and all mental phenomena we experience are the result of complex molecular interactions in the brain. Since all mental phenomena involve time, there is a dynamic quality to them. If materialism is true then it has to be the case that precise and specific neural sequences of events underlie these mental phenomena. These sequences of events have to be precise and specific because there is an incalculable number of ways in which various thoughts, memories, beliefs and knowledge can be modified in just the slightest and nuanced ways. Imagine a memory, belief, insight, or bit of knowledge that you possess. Then think of the innumerable ways in which it can be slightly modified even in very subtle ways. Each version of these mental phenomena would have–must have if materialism is true–a slightly different underlying neural signature otherwise they would not be distinguishable from thoughts which were slightly different.

What would happen–what should happen–under a materialist accounting of mental phenomena, if the precise and specific causal sequences of events in the brain, from which all mental phenomena are purported to be derived, were disrupted in a catastrophic way? Many such cases have occurred. I want to focus on one well-known case involving a women named Pam Reynolds.

Pam Reynolds had a large aneurysm deep in the base of her brain. In order to remove the aneurysm, the medical team would have to use a procedure referred to as “standstill” whereby all molecular activity in her brain would be halted. To achieve this the doctors would have to chill her body and drain all the blood out of her brain. The surgery was a success. The surgeon removed the aneurysm, the medical staff warmed the blood and re-infused it back into her brain. They then resuscitated her which required a defibrillator. During the operation Pam Reynolds had many of the classic elements of a near death experience, including two out of body experiences, an trip through a dark tunnel with a bright light, a visit with deceased relatives and it appears a brief life review. Pam’s near death experience began while she was under deep general anesthesia and ended just prior to her resuscitation. She is reported to have said that her experience was continuous–uninterrupted–from the time of her first out of body experience in the operating room prior to “standstill” to her second out of body experience, also in the operating room, just prior to her resuscitation. This time period would include the time she was in “standstill.” Much of what she claims to have witnessed in the operating room during her first out of body experience, has been corroborated by the medical staff who were present in the operating room. I suppose skeptics can nitpick about a few things here and there. But in any case, if she was correct that the experience was continuous, then materialism and atheism can be relegated to the ash heap of history once and for all where they belong.

For the primary point I am making in this post, it really does not matter whether or not Pam Reynolds had the subjective experiences associated with near death experiences that she claims. Personally I have little doubt that she experienced what she claimed. What matters here is that her brain was entirely shut down with no molecular activity for about 45 minutes. She was effectively brain dead throughout “standstill.” This is known with certainty based on medical records. Yet when she was resuscitated, her consciousness, sense of self, memories and presumable all, or most all, mental capabilities were restored. That her sense of self and all other complex mental phenomena were restored, is an inference that can be made by watching interviews with her on Youtube and reading accounts of interviews with her. Just to cite one example, shortly after she regained consciousness, she recognized the Eagle’s song “Hotel California” and commented about a particular line in the song in a clever way to the attending physician. In order to do this, she would have to have been conscious, cognizant as to who she was and what had happened to her, recognized the song, understood the meaning of the lyrics and applied the meaning differently in a metaphorical way. All these mental phenomena are extraordinarily complex and would necessarily have extraordinarily complex material process underlying them if materialism is true.

In order to re-establish one’s consciousness, sense of self, beliefs, knowledge and memories and all associated mental capabilities following complete cessation of the brain, some prior set of conditions would have to have been re-established and resynchronized throughout the brain. But by what set of complex material causes could a prior set of conditions been preserved and re-established? And how could such a marvelous function have evolved in the first place? There could have been nothing like an orderly shutdown of her brain given the nature of the general anesthesia and the “standstill” process. There must have been countless molecular reactions interrupted, neuro-transmitters half built, aborted synapse firings, synaptic connections partially constructed as she transitioned through deep general anesthesia to “standstill” without any blood in her brain. The delicate balance of inter-dependencies that must have existed during her prior set of neural sequences of events would have been irreparably lost. There would be no conceivable way to restore the prior conditions to any sort of “known-good” state. Rather, a new set of “initial conditions” would have asserted themselves upon resuscitation and, given materialism’s strict bottom up causation, the sequence of molecular activity would continue to act in accordance with this new set of local causal sequences of events. But it would have been totally random as to which synapses within which neuron’s within which area of her brain would have come up first and begun operating. To gain just a hint of the complexity involved, imagine if you stored a computer’s boot loader, operating system and application programs in volatile memory and then pulled the power plug. What would you expect to happen when you plugged the power cord back in?

To think that the precise, specific set of complex brain processes that materialism alleges give rise to consciousness, one’s sense of self, memories, knowledge and beliefs could re-establish themselves, strictly through material causation following complete cessation of brain function, is an appeal to miracles but without any human testimony or empirical evidence to support them. Calculating the probabilities for the material causation required to bring about the necessary causal sequence of events to restore the same person cannot be done and is utterly pointless. The only reasonable conclusion is that there is some sort of immaterial quality we are endowed with–mind–that orchestrates the resumption of all the necessary brain functions to re-establish the person and all their accompanying mental faculties.

Comments
Moreover, Wigner was certainly no lightweight in quantum mechanics, but his deep insights continue to foster ‘a second revolution’ in quantum mechanics:
Eugene Wigner – A Gedanken Pioneer of the Second Quantum Revolution – Anton Zeilinger – Sept. 2014 Conclusion It would be fascinating to know Eugene Wigner’s reaction to the fact that the gedanken experiments he discussed (in 1963 and 1970) have not only become reality, but building on his gedanken experiments, new ideas have developed which on the one hand probe the foundations of quantum mechanics even deeper, and which on the other hand also provide the foundations to the new field of quantum information technology. All these experiments pay homage to the great insight Wigner expressed in developing these gedanken experiments and in his analyses of the foundations of quantum mechanics, http://epjwoc.epj.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2014/15/epjconf_wigner2014_01010.pdf Also of note: Von Neumann–Wigner – interpretation Excerpt: The von Neumann–Wigner interpretation, also described as “consciousness causes collapse [of the wave function]“, is an interpretation of quantum mechanics in which consciousness is postulated to be necessary for the completion of the process of quantum measurement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%E2%80%93Wigner_interpretation#The_interpretation “I think von Neumann’s orthodox QM gives a good way to understand the nature of the universe: it is tightly tied to the practical test and uses of our basic physical theory, while also accounting for the details of the mind-brain connection in a way that is rationally concordant with both our conscious experiences, and experience of control, and the neuroscience data.” Henry Stapp
Then after I had learned about Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, I stumbled across Wheeler’s Delayed choice experiments in which this finding shocked me as to the central importance of the observer’s free will choice in quantum experiments:
Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler’s Delayed Choice Experiment – video http://vimeo.com/38508798 “Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel” John A. Wheeler Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm Genesis, Quantum Physics and Reality Excerpt: Simply put, an experiment on Earth can be made in such a way that it determines if one photon comes along either on the right or the left side or if it comes (as a wave) along both sides of the gravitational lens (of the galaxy) at the same time. However, how could the photons have known billions of years ago that someday there would be an earth with inhabitants on it, making just this experiment? ,,, This is big trouble for the multi-universe theory and for the “hidden-variables” approach. - per Greer “It begins to look as we ourselves, by our last minute decision, have an influence on what a photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing… we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in what we have always called the past. The past is not really the past until is has been registered. Or to put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exists as a record in the present.” – John Wheeler – The Ghost In The Atom – Page 66-68
Then, a little bit later, I learned that the delayed choice experiment had been extended:
The Experiment That Debunked Materialism – video – (delayed choice quantum eraser) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w (Double Slit) A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser – updated 2007 Excerpt: Upon accessing the information gathered by the Coincidence Circuit, we the observer are shocked to learn that the pattern shown by the positions registered at D0 (Detector Zero) at Time 2 depends entirely on the information gathered later at Time 4 and available to us at the conclusion of the experiment. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm
And then I learned the delayed choice experiment was refined yet again:
“If we attempt to attribute an objective meaning to the quantum state of a single system, curious paradoxes appear: quantum effects mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded.” Asher Peres, Delayed choice for entanglement swapping. J. Mod. Opt. 47, 139-143 (2000). Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
i.e. The preceding experiment clearly shows, and removes any doubt whatsoever, that the ‘material’ detector recording information in the double slit is secondary to the experiment and that a conscious observer being able to consciously know the ‘which path’ information of a photon with local certainty, is of primary importance in the experiment. You can see a more complete explanation of the startling results of the experiment at the 9:11 minute mark of the following video:
Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained – 2014 video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4
And then, after the delayed choice experiments, I learned about something called Leggett’s Inequality. Leggett’s Inequality was, as far as I can tell, a mathematical proof developed by Nobelist Anthony Leggett to prove ‘realism’. Realism is the belief that an objective reality exists independently of a conscious observer looking at it. And, as is usual with challenging the predictions of Quantum Mechanics, his proof was violated by a stunning 80 orders of magnitude, thus once again, in over the top fashion, highlighting the central importance of the conscious observer to Quantum Experiments:
A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? – 2008 Excerpt: In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. Leggett agrees with Zeilinger that realism is wrong in quantum mechanics, but when I asked him whether he now believes in the theory, he answered only “no” before demurring, “I’m in a small minority with that point of view and I wouldn’t stake my life on it.” For Leggett there are still enough loopholes to disbelieve. I asked him what could finally change his mind about quantum mechanics. Without hesitation, he said sending humans into space as detectors to test the theory.,,, (to which Anton Zeilinger responded) When I mentioned this to Prof. Zeilinger he said, “That will happen someday. There is no doubt in my mind. It is just a question of technology.” Alessandro Fedrizzi had already shown me a prototype of a realism experiment he is hoping to send up in a satellite. It’s a heavy, metallic slab the size of a dinner plate. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
bornagain77
May 3, 2015
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I would like to emphasize the fact that quantum mechanics has now shown that the atheistic belief that consciousness is 'emergent' from a material basis is false. As to consciousness in quantum mechanics. That consciousness is integral to quantum mechanics is fairly obvious to the unbiased observer (no pun intended). I first, much like everybody else, was immediately shocked to learn that the observer could have any effect whatsoever in the double slit experiment:
Quantum Mechanics – Double Slit and Delayed Choice Experiments – video https://vimeo.com/87175892 Dr. Quantum – Double Slit Experiment – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/ Quantum Mechanics – Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Prof. Zeilinger makes this rather startling statement in the preceding video:
“The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable.” Anton Zeilinger
To back Zeilinger's preceding statement up, recently the 'superposition' of a particle, which is something that Einstein himself fought against, was experimentally verified to be true:
Scientists Prove That A Particle Can Be In Two Places At Once, Everything Gets Weird - Thomas Tamblyn - March 31 ,2015 (with video) Excerpt: Scientists at Griffith University in the US and the University of Tokyo in Japan have successfully carried out an experiment which should once and for all prove that a particle can indeed exist in two places at once. Described by Einstein as "spooky action across distance", the theory goes that a particle in superposition can exist in two places at once. It is only when you try and measure one of the particles that its counterpart disappears. As ludicrous as that sounded, that wasn't actually the problem that Einstein had with the theory. His real aggravation was focused around the idea that the reason the counterpart disappears is because somehow, it knows that its partner has been discovered. This would require a level of connection that would travel faster than light and as such, Einstein just wasn't convinced. Well it turns out that even though we still don't know how the particles know each other, you can indeed split a photon on half, send it to two separate locations and then have it exist in 'superposition' until it's discovered and measured.,, http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/31/scientists-prove-that-a-particle-can-be-in-two-places-at-once_n_6975466.html?1427800715
Feynman said this in regards to the double slit experiment with electrons,
“has in it the heart of quantum mechanics” and “is impos­sible, absolutely impos­sible, to explain in any clas­sical way.” http://thisquantumworld.com/wp/the-mystique-of-quantum-mechanics/two-slit-experiment/
The double slit has now been accomplished for objects much larger than electrons:
Physicists Smash Record For Wave-Particle Duality - Oct. 2013 Excerpt: According to quantum mechanics, wave-particle duality and quantum superpositions must also occur for macroscopic objects such as viruses, cells and even baseballs,,, Having created a beam of these molecules, Eibenberger and co pass them through a series of slits that reveal any wavelike characteristics. Sure enough, the molecules form an interference pattern at the detector which implies that they must have been superposed (i.e. in superposition) while passing through the slits.,,, “Our data confirm the fully coherent quantum delocalization of single compounds composed of about 5000 protons, 5000 neutrons and 5000 electrons,” they say. https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/physicists-smash-record-for-wave-particle-duality-462c39db8e7b
Feynman also stated this in regards to quantum mechanics,,,
"…the “paradox” is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality “ought to be.” Richard Feynman, in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, vol III, p. 18-9 (1965)
Dean Radin, who spent years at Princeton testing different aspects of consciousness, recently performed experiments testing the possible role of consciousness in the double slit. His results were, not so surprisingly, very supportive of consciousness’s central role in the experiment:
Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: six experiments – Radin – 2012 Abstract: A double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wavefunction. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double-slit spectral power to its single-slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. Each test session consisted of 40 counterbalanced attention-toward and attention-away epochs, where each epoch lasted between 15 and 30 s(seconds). Data contributed by 137 people in six experiments, involving a total of 250 test sessions, indicate that on average the spectral ratio decreased as predicted (z = -4:36, p = 6·10^-6). Another 250 control sessions conducted without observers present tested hardware, software, and analytical procedures for potential artifacts; none were identified (z = 0:43, p = 0:67). Variables including temperature, vibration, and signal drift were also tested, and no spurious influences were identified. By contrast, factors associated with consciousness, such as meditation experience, electrocortical markers of focused attention, and psychological factors including openness and absorption, significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double-slit interference pattern. The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem. http://www.deanradin.com/papers/Physics%20Essays%20Radin%20final.pdf
Of course, atheists/materialists were/are in complete denial as to the obvious implications of mind in the double slit (invoking infinite parallel universes and such as that to try to get around the obvious implications of ‘Mind’). But personally, not being imprisoned in the materialist’s box, my curiosity was aroused and I’ve been sort of poking around, finding out a little more here and there about quantum mechanics, and how the observer is central to it. One of the first interesting experiments in quantum mechanics I found after the double slit, that highlighted the centrality of the observer to the experiment, was Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries. Here is Wigner commenting on the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries,,,
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: When I returned to Berlin, the excellent crystallographer Weissenberg asked me to study: why is it that in a crystal the atoms like to sit in a symmetry plane or symmetry axis. After a short time of thinking I understood:,,,, To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm
Wigner went on to make these rather dramatic comments in regards to his work:
“It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays”; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. “It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality” - Eugene Wigner – (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961
bornagain77
May 3, 2015
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Bill, You did not respond to my hypothetical: Suppose a good friend or relative whose honesty and integrity you really respected was in a car accident and told you, “Bill, it was unbelievable, I was up above the scene of the accident floating around watching them try to revive me. I could move around focus my attention where ever I wanted. It was the most lucid I have ever been. Then suddenly I was back in my body in the hospital. I later confirmed that what I saw really appears to be what was actually going on!” Would you say that this would disprove materialism?nkendall
May 3, 2015
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Bill @comment #56, Let me net this all out. Neuroscience is going through a phase where each new technology gives greater insight into what goes on in the brain. I could pretty much have guessed most of what you are saying—or at least it is not surprising. I know the brain is complex and I know we are finding this out through various technologies. The field is enamored with these new data. But none of it has anything to do with explaining causation. It was like the early days of the modern synthesis, there was this excitement about how random mutations could produce all these marvelous features of life. I think now there is a coming to terms and a slow realization that random mutations and natural selection simply cannot explain the complexities of life. This same realization will someday occur in neuroscience. Soon there will be a realization that the field is only describing what is going on during conscious thought and not what is causing it. You talk about structures and you talk about neuron firings. It is not always easy to determine what physical phenomena you are ascribing to what mental phenomena. The bottom line is that you have not proposed any theory as to how these physical phenomena can possibly account for--cause--the mental phenomena. You have simply described what structures and functions in the brain appear to be associated with them. I know that. It is no surprise that there would be correlations. Obviously, thought, analysis, memory storage and recall, beliefs, as well as consciousness and sense of self are very complex and must have complex underlying material causal phenomena if materialism is true. And if materialism is not true, the brain will reveal complex physiological signatures about what is going on. Given the dynamic, interrelated and complex nature of all mental phenomena, it must be the case that many, many, complex cascade of events underlie these mental phenomena if materialism is true. You appear to be saying that both complex structures and complex functions (neuron firings) are associated with them. Complexity always means specificity. Specificity means that in order to re-establish the precise mental phenomena one experiences prior to an abrupt, total, catastrophic shut down of the brain that these same specific sequences of events have to be re-established when the brain was "rebooted". Yet the underlying molecular components would be in complete disarray following shut down and would follow a new set of local complex causal chains of events. There is no conceivable way, save a hopeless appeal to chance, that a prior known-good state could have been re-established such that a person would experience a resumption of consciousness, one’s sense of self, thought, knowledge, memory storage/recall, one’s belief’s, meanings, values, etc. Best regards.nkendall
May 3, 2015
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Bill, Elizabeth (welcome back), My questions @51 persist: How do you reconcile the existence of unchanging principles with your argument that they can be reduced to changing matter? Inasmuch as you rule out all manner of spirit and non-material existence, how do you get from changeable to unchangeable--from concrete to abstract? If abstractness or unchanging principles can be reduced to matter, why doesn’t the Pythagorean Theorem or the Law of Non-Contradiction evolve with changing matter? Indeed, how can anything remain unchanged? If abstract virtues are really products of changing matter, do they have quantifiable physical characteristics such as weight and location? If not, why not?StephenB
May 3, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill: I have really enjoyed your posts on this thread, and absolutely agree. To add just a little more detail still: I am currently doing a lot of work investigating the electrophysiological correlates of mental states, including those involved in cognitive processing, using magnetoencephalography, which essentially measures oscillatory neural processes EEG does, but gives us better spatial resolution (because the inverse problem is more tractable), and there has also been a lot of recent work published on data collected from patients with deep electrode arrays, and what is increasingly clear is that, firstly (and we know this from fMRI as well), that the brain exhibits a relatively small number of large-scale "networks" in which specific sets of brain regions tend to work together, forming a large-scale "brain state" that can readily flip from one state to another, depending on whether attention is being focussed on the external or the "internal" (remembered, imagined) world; and secondly, that gamma oscillations are strongly associated with events that can readily recalled, i.e. mental experiences that the subject reports being aware of. So there really isn't a problem with the idea that the same brain can be conscious and unconscious at different time - sure, the brain's physical structure is always changing (Hebb's rule, as you point out) but that just underscores the fact that, while a person is alive (and their brain functioning) the brain is undergoing constant dynamic change, both in terms of ionic current flow and actual change to the proteins and other molecules that it is made of. And, as such, it can enter a state in which its owner is unconscious (e.g. asleep) and recover readily from that state as consciousness resumes. Even while awake, we are constantly "flipping" from brain state to brain-state as need requires. And we can even simulate these processes, to some extent, in robots, resulting in robots that "sleep" and "wake" and "learn" and "become aware of objects" and "avoid obstructions" and "find ways of achieving goals in a dynamic environment filled with obstructions" and "solve problems". So we can account for most cognitive functions, including awareness and problem-solving, and sleep, in entirely physical terms. The remaining problem is, I suggest, entirely philosophical: is it coherent to imagine a physical zombie who behaved exactly as we do - problem solving, expressing opinions, learning, sleeping, making mistakes, navigating a dynamic and unpredictable environment" but not be "conscious"? For me the answer is no, but not because I know stuff about the brain (well, maybe a little) but because the behaviour of a conscious entity exemplifies their consciousness of things, and if they can't do those things, then they won't be able to behave as though they are conscious. Sure, you could have a conscious person who was so immobilised that you might mistake them for an unconscious person (which is why research into the brain correlates of consciousness is of such great practical importance) but I suggest that a "person" who is able to function as a conscious person does, but not be conscious is an oxymoron.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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Nkendall: Thanks for your kind remarks. Consider them reciprocated. I do see that we are talking past one another. For example, you ask:
"If the underlying cause of these things were strictly based on the structure of the brain, then what on earth is the purpose to all the neuron firings? And why is it that anyone ever loses consciousness during cardiac arrest or anesthesia? The structures remain intact."
Yet my last post alludes to the following, and the roles they play in sensory experience, memory, thinking and speech, and a sense of self:
rapid neural firing (e.g. rapid glutamate-mediated neural transmission underlying sensory experience"
"variations in reentrant neural firing that characterizes the hippocampus as it sustains patterns of activity that underlie the transfer of short term recall in to longer term storage…"
"The generation of sentences (including thoughts) therefore reflects… rapid neural firing over these structures as specific verbal thoughts are entertained."
"…one’s sense of enduring “self” reflects a continuum, or perhaps an historical hierarchy, of neural facts, from the deeply and historically structural to the rapidly functional"
Not to mention in earlier posts:
"...rapid successions of complex, reentrant brain states..."
"...activation of parietal and visual cortex..."
elements of memory that are "sustained by rapid functional activities"
Which of course also refer to neural firing. I don't intend this as a "gotcha," but it is beyond me how you take from what I have written a view that phenomenal consciousness and a sense of self are based "strictly on the structure of the brain" without reference to neural firing and other transient functional states. You should consider the possibility that you are leaving this discussion without really understanding what I am arguing, and how it bears upon your remarks on recovery from "standstill."Reciprocating Bill
May 3, 2015
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Hi Bill (at Comment # 47) There is no reason to believe that consciousness, sense of self, thought, belief, meanings, memories and values, etc. could possibly be reducible to material phenomena. They are as dissimilar to one another as poetry is dissimilar to dust. And the fact that higher level abstract thought is a quite recent phenomenon in evolutionary terms, makes any materialist explanation, doubly difficult. There are just too few individuals involved for chance mutations to account for the vast difference in mental capabilities between humans and hominids. Much of what you have described I am at least somewhat familiar with. What you are doing is making assertions and simply offering a description of the brain and noting some correlations between various activities in the brain and structures over which these activities occur on the one hand and mental phenomena on the other. No dualist would ever deny that the brain does something. Clearly it does a lot. If you perturb the brain there will usually be an effect on the mental phenomena (but interestingly, not always). However, correlation is not the same as causation. A poorly tuned piano will result in bad experience despite the best music and pianist. That is why I said that I thought you were confusing necessary and sufficient causation and cause and effect. If my daughter were to ask me how to write a novel, the answer would not be limited to a description of a word processor, paper and ink. She would want to know about the plot, character development, description of settings, etc. In my post, I was making an imaginary concession—it was a hypothetical--of sorts by saying in effect, “Suppose it were the case that consciousness, sense of self, thought, belief, meaning and values were reducible to material phenomena” what could we then say about how the brain might be able to recover from a catastrophic interruption. When I ask how the conscious sense of self arises, you offer the following: …“one’s sense of enduring ‘self’ reflects a continuum, or perhaps an historical hierarchy, of neural facts, from the deeply and historically structural to the rapidly functional, with the lion’s share lying at the structural end of the continuum.” To me this statement of yours, once I remove all the words that get in the way, distills down to something like: One’s sense of self results primarily from structural components in the brain but also involves rapid functional activities (I assume neural firings). Of course it is not only consciousness and sense of self that is restored following near death experiences. Memories, ability to think, one’s beliefs, values, etc. are also restored. These other mental phenomena all interact with one another and interact with consciousness. It therefore must be a complex process. If the underlying cause of these things were strictly based on the structure of the brain, then what on earth is the purpose to all the neuron firings? And why is it that anyone ever loses consciousness during cardiac arrest or anesthesia? The structures remain intact. Unless the neuron firings are superfluous then they are doing something and that something is likely necessary for any mental phenomena and in all likelihood very specific and complex. If materialism is true and there is a material explanation for these things, then it has to involve a complexity comparable to what it claims to explain. Structure in and of itself is not complex because it is fixed and therefore not a good candidate to explain the dynamic versatility of mental phenomena which is attested to by the sum total of all human knowledge, all human artifacts and artistic renderings, all musings from the sacred to the profane and the sublime to the ridiculous. This will probably be my last comment on this thread. I think we are probably talking past each other and will just have to agree to disagree. If you respond I will read what you write and consider it and possibly reply. Before I leave though let me ask you a hypothetical. Suppose a good friend or relative whose honesty and integrity you really respected was in a car accident and told you, “Bill, it was unbelievable, I was up above the scene of the accident floating around watching them try to revive me. I could move around focus my attention where ever I wanted. It was the most lucid I have ever been. Then suddenly I was back in my body in the hospital. I later confirmed that what I saw really appears to be what was actually going on!” There are many who claim to have had these experiences and they aren’t flakes. Would you say that this would disprove materialism? Regardless of your response on this, I will close by saying that you strike me as a decent, intelligent man and I thank you for participating in this thread. God Bless you sir. I wish the best for you and your loved ones. And I would hope that in your mind in this respect, you would be reciprocating Bill.nkendall
May 2, 2015
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Jim Smith, I hold NDE's to be real. And although single NDEs cannot be relied on too much to establish any particular 'religious' position, I do find the fact that the predominant form of NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures are extremely pleasant, i.e. heavenly, and the fact that the predominant form of NDEs in non-Judeo-Christian cultures are extremely unpleasant, i.e. hellish, to be strong confirmation that the basic overarching precepts of Christianity are true. John 8:23-24 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."bornagain77
May 2, 2015
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ba77 @ 52 Do you have an opinion on what the cultural differences mean? Do the cultural differences indicate that NDE's are not experiences of disembodied consciousness and the afterlife? Or do they mean that different cultures have different experiences in the afterlife and if so, why would that be? ThanksJim Smith
May 2, 2015
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KevNick: The following two videos go over the commonalities of Near Death Experiences Near Death Experience Documentary - commonalities of the experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTuMYaEB35U Life After Life - Raymond Moody - Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg As well it should be noted: Contrary to popular belief that holds that NDEs are basically the same worldwide, All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies that I have looked at have an extreme rarity of encounters with ‘The Being Of Light’ and tend to be very unpleasant NDE’s save for the few pleasant children’s NDEs of those cultures that I’ve seen (It seems there is indeed an ‘age of accountability’). Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE’s: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. per shaktiti Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson's research Except: "Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html Of related interest: Muslim near death experience - Sees Jesus (Isa) and becomes Christian Pt 1 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TC-TLFYNCQ Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F70Ray8Mdn4bornagain77
May 2, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill
I have described a continuum of neurobiological phenomena, from rapid neural firing (e.g. rapid glutamate-mediated neural transmission underlying sensory experience, variations in reentrant neural firing that characterizes the hippocampus as it sustains patterns of activity that underlie the transfer of short term recall in to longer term storage, and so forth) to changes in the structures themselves, such as assemblies of neurons that wire together due to repeated joint activity – sometimes over a lifetime of development, use and learning. At still other levels are elaborate brain structures and interactions that arose over the course of evolution and are essentially invariant across individuals, in some instances across species (e.g. limbic organization that is more or less invariant across all mammals, including ourselves).
Bill, I don’t understand how you get from concrete material molecules, which are normally associated with the brain, to abstract immaterial thoughts, which are understood to be the product an immaterial mind. How do you account for the existence of abstractness in the first place? As we know, non material minds are consistent with non material abstraction. However, you seem to be saying that abstraction doesn't exist. Are you, in fact, trying to argue that the laws of logic and math or the concepts of truth and justice are mere manifestations of matter in motion? If so, how can they remain unchanged? Why doesn't the Pythagorean Theorem or the Law of Non-Contradiction evolve with their material components? For that matter, how much do the virtues of courage and compassion weigh? Are they extended in space? If so, where are they located?StephenB
May 2, 2015
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KevNick, it is clear that you did not go through the links I provided for you yesterday and are just rehashing your original complaint. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/guest-post-constancy-of-self-in-light-of-near-death-experiences-a-disproof-of-materialism/#comment-562122 I suggest watching the Mary Neal MD videobornagain77
May 2, 2015
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Thank you ALL for your comments. I'm sorry I'm not commenting much but rather ask a lot of questions. I'm just trying to establish some fundamental premises first. Here is what I have been able to establish so far: 1. So for, I have not found even 1 description of the Holy Ghost/Spirit by anybody who had NDE and saw God and Jesus in the Heaven. Have you? If yes, please provide one and a link if possible. 2. Most, if not ALL of the descriptions of God and Jesus fit the typical representations of the well known paintings and religious literature. God-usually man with white and long hair and beard, dressed in white long robes. 2.Jesus-similar to God just a younger version with shorter beard and brown hair. 3. Holy Ghost/Spirit-no description found so far and whether It is a He or She. 4. Some NDE reported seeing Virgin Mary in Heaven with the typical "La Madonna" description, which pretty much tells me that this NDE bears no relation to reality.KevNick
May 2, 2015
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nkendall this may interest you
Neurons constantly rewrite their DNA - Apr. 27, 2015 Excerpt: They (neurons) use minor "DNA surgeries" to toggle their activity levels all day, every day.,,, "We used to think that once a cell reaches full maturation, its DNA is totally stable, including the molecular tags attached to it to control its genes and maintain the cell's identity," says Hongjun Song, Ph.D.,, "This research shows that some cells actually alter their DNA all the time, just to perform everyday functions.",,, ,,, recent studies had turned up evidence that mammals' brains exhibit highly dynamic DNA modification activity—more than in any other area of the body,,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-04-neurons-constantly-rewrite-dna.html
As should be needless to say, this 'top down' finding is completely contrary to what the 'central dogma' of neo-Darwinism would predict.
Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611
bornagain77
May 2, 2015
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Nkendall:
I am not sure how to interpret the statement. You could mean “rapid succession” of new structures or you could mean rapid succession of neural events over these new structures.
Revisit my post. I have described a continuum of neurobiological phenomena, from rapid neural firing (e.g. rapid glutamate-mediated neural transmission underlying sensory experience, variations in reentrant neural firing that characterizes the hippocampus as it sustains patterns of activity that underlie the transfer of short term recall in to longer term storage, and so forth) to changes in the structures themselves, such as assemblies of neurons that wire together due to repeated joint activity - sometimes over a lifetime of development, use and learning. At still other levels are elaborate brain structures and interactions that arose over the course of evolution and are essentially invariant across individuals, in some instances across species (e.g. limbic organization that is more or less invariant across all mammals, including ourselves). As an example: There are facts about the organization of the brain structures responsible for the generation and comprehension of speech that have intriguing implications for “thought” in a verbal modality. Broca’s area and Wernicke’s area are massively connected through the arcuate bundle - hence areas of the human brain required for the generation of speech are closely connected to those responsible for the comprehension of speech, and the reverse. Further connections extend into frontal and prefrontal cortex where the volatile contents of working memory are sustained. These connections are largely absent in other primates and are a likely basis for the human capacity for silent “thought” in a verbal modality. The generation of sentences (including thoughts) therefore reflects the existence evolutionarily derived structures (Broca’s area, Wernicke’s area, the arcuate bundle etc.), reflects enduring changes encoded in these structures through the establishment and modification of synaptic connections within these areas (and others) as one’s specific language is acquired in childhood (the structure of which, per Chomsky, is probably innately primed to verbally instantiate a grammatical subject - “I” in English), and reflects rapid neural firing over these structures as specific verbal thoughts are entertained. If you wish to maintain that thought nevertheless can occur absent these structures given the decades of research and clinical experience (e.g. with various aphasias in stroke patients) that have established these facts, the burden of proof (and credibility) is, I’m afraid, on you. So the distinction you draw between structure and functional changes over that structure is an important one. It also points to crux of of the problem with your argument. You describe a sense of self that is invariant regardless of transient experiences, sleep states, anesthesia, decades of life and even brain “standstill” and reboot. I don’t dispute that - I think that is mostly accurate. Where I think you depart from the evidence is in identifying this sense of invariant self primarily with the countless rapid functional changes and states that occur over those structures (with the software rather than the hardware, as you describe it), states you find unlikely to be quickly re-established after an event as drastic as “standstill.” I’ve think you’ve got it backward, and in that reverse miss the obvious explanation for the persistence of a sense of self to which you refer. Specifically, in a manner similar to the cortical structures and functions that underlie speech, one’s sense of enduring “self” reflects a continuum, or perhaps an historical hierarchy, of neural facts, from the deeply and historically structural to the rapidly functional, with the lion’s share lying at the structural end of the continuum. That’s why the experience is phenomenologically invariant! It remains invariant as other experiences rapidly come and go because it is embodied in myriad elements of brain and bodily organization that persist through shut-down, and across the years. Some of those persistent elements reflect individual elements that have been “baked in” during individual development through processes such as LTP and the establishment of new connections. Some are "recently" evolved human adaptations (those underlying speech, theory of mind, etc.) that organize experiences unique to human beings. Still other structures are almost unimaginably ancient, organizing a base stratum of experience that is common to all mammals, and perhaps all vertebrate animals, a stratum that is more ancient than the neurological peculiarities that originated with the evolution of hominins. In the human much of this is expressed at the midbrain level, in, for example, the relationship of the thalami and the cerebral cortex, modulated by the reticular formation, and so on. Hence the integration of sense information and the coordination of motor plans and volitional behavior in the human being are organized, in part, through a biology of awareness and behavior that is very ancient. These ancient platforms of experience and behavior comprise in each of us the deep and persistent sense of experiencing and acting self to which you refer.Reciprocating Bill
May 2, 2015
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Hi KevNick @ 44, I have struggled with that question as well. If the mind can produce phenomena such as dreams with persons you have never seen before, then perhaps NDEs are sort of like spectacular dreams. I do tend to believe that they are probably more than just spectacular dreams because of the consistent nature of the message--unconditional love and the importance of knowledge and the unimportance of material success. I do think there are cases where genuine NDE experiences are mixed up and confused with dreams and also cases where people embellish the content or simply make things up. I suppose, unless and until I have one I will always have some level of doubt as to what they are. But I do view NDEs as disproving materialism for the reasons I mentioned. However..."shared death experiences" are an entirely different thing and they corroborate NDEs to a significant degree. Here, multiple healthy persons in the same room claim to have witnessed the same unearthly phenomena when someone close to them passes away. These are detailed in a recent book by Ray Moody, who himself--with others--had such an experience. If these really do occur, then as Ray Moody says near the end of his book, "If these are not proof of life after life, [then] what are they."nkendall
May 2, 2015
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KevNick, as Rene, 'I think therefore I am', Descartes would ask, 'and how do you know that what you are seeing, touching, hearing, right now is really real and is not an illusion?' Especially now that quantum physicists are in the habit of referring to material reality as an illusion?
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Violated, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
As Descartes, Chalmers, and modern philosophical zombies make clear, it all comes down to a subjective first person account as to whether the experience is 'real' or not.
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo Philosophical Zombies - cartoon http://existentialcomics.com/comic/11
And when measured against that standard of subjective first person accounts, Judeo-Christian NDEs are found to be 'even more real than real':
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: To take the approach of, "Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain" is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it's an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html
bornagain77
May 1, 2015
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How do people experiencing the "visions" know that what they are seeing in their near-death-experience are the actually "persons" like God, Jesus the Holy Ghost and even Mary? How?KevNick
May 1, 2015
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KevNick @11 Read Aldous Huxley's The Doors of Perception : Heaven and Hell. Fascinating.Axel
May 1, 2015
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KevNick:
The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html Present! - Mary Neal's Near-Death Experience - video testimony https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as6yslz-RDw Coast to Coast - Vicki's Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y video - former militant atheist Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342592001 "I knew for certain there was no such thing as life after death. Only simple minded people believed in that sort of thing. I didn't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tales. I drifted into darkness. Drifting asleep into anihilation.,,(Chapter 2 - The Descent),, I was standing up. I opened my eyes to see why I was standing up. I was between two hospital beds in the hospital room.,,, Everything that was me, my consciousness and my physical being, was standing next to the bed. No, it wasn't me lying in the bed. It was just a thing that didn't have any importance to me. It might as well have been a slab of meat in the supermarket",,, Howard Storm - former hard-core atheist - Excerpt from his book, 'My Descent Into Death' (Page 12-14) http://books.google.com/books?id=kd4gxtQAeq8C&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false
It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies that I have looked at have an extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's:
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g
Also of note: if scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D hologram - photographic negative" image on the Shroud of Turin, I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before.
"Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffrey Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively and has written a book on the scientific evidence for NDEs "Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being." Ned Dougherty's - Fast Lane To Heaven - Quoted from "To Heaven and Back" pg. 71 - Mary C. Neal MD “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience
All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light', while having a deep NDE, have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth.
In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680 1 John 1:5-7 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
May 1, 2015
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I've read quite a few: http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2012/09/evidence-that-god-exists-people-who.htmlJim Smith
May 1, 2015
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How many of you have heard or read about near-death-experiences where the person having the experience saw God, Jesus and Holy Spirit in Heaven?KevNick
May 1, 2015
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Hi Bill (Comment #30), Here is what your points related to thought distill down to: "Rapid successions of complex, reentrant brain states...accompany and determine the creation of thoughts." I am not sure how to interpret the statement. You could mean "rapid succession" of new structures or you could mean rapid succession of neural events over these new structures. Then you say both "accompany and determine the creation of new thoughts." Accompany and determine are very different; one is a cause and one is an effect. I am going to guess you mean the creation of new neural structures are required to facilitate the creation of new thoughts which are produced by new neural sequences of events over these new structures. I am sure there are neural structures and events that accompany new thoughts. The brain clearly does something. So I will focus on the point that you seem to be making that new structures and new neural sequences of events (my words) "determine the creation of thoughts." I hope I am understanding you correctly. So at time0 there are no structure in place at locationsX,Y,Z...; then some unidentified cause occurs such that at time1 there are a new structures put in place at locationX,Y,Z.... Shortly after, a specific series of neural events occur through these new structures that gives rise to a new abstract thoughts--something that you may never have thought of before. This process cries out for foresight. What possible set of material causes could produce new rewirings of the brain which just happen to facilitate and accommodate an extraordinarily complex, specific cascade of events which just happen to produce a coherent series of thoughts which just happen to get hyperlinked to other related knowledge and memories (presumably through new neural structures and processes) and just happens to be consistent with what one is interested in and just happens to occur in such a way that they can interface to one's consciousness such that they are recognizable? Do you have any idea how complex that process must be at a molecular level? There would have to be hundreds of billions and probably trillions of molecular reactions that would have to occur in just the right way, at just the right place, at just the right time. Yet you claim all this arises virtually instantaneously. I wish road construction in Chicago could be as efficient. This appears to be coming from something Giulio Tononi wrote. It is just a proposal, a theory. It isn't science, it's magic. Science is about explaining causation. You are simply describing changes that have been observed and inferring that they are the cause of thought as oppose to the effects of thought or some administrative process in the brain. I am not going to address learning which is more complex than creative thinking because it (learning) is interactive and requires recall from memory, processing input as well as creative thinking. So I will move on to your comments related to constancy of self: "Self and identity are thoroughly baked into the structure and networks of the cerebral cortex and persist despite interruptions brain function." You appear to be suggesting that one's conscious sense of self results purely from neural structures that are "baked in" to the brain. I think you really would acknowledge that there are complex and specific sets of neural sequences of events that have to occur over these neural structures, right? I mean, to use a computer analogy, obviously, an intact circuit board is not enough to account for the function of a computer. There is firmware, admin software and application software, which is highly specific, that is required to do something useful. Similarly, there must be a complex set of neural processes, analogous to software, that underlies all these mental phenomena including consciousness and one's sense of self. The fact that there must be an interface between one's consciousness and all thoughts, memories, beliefs and knowledge is indicative of a process, not simply a structure. I hope you would agree that these neural events would have to be very complex and very specific. If not we can just end the conversation at this point. Assuming that you agree with this, then in order to re-establish the identical set of mental qualities following an abrupt, complete disruption and cessation of all neural (and actually molecular activity) the same complex set of precise, specific neural sequences of events would have to reassert themselves, right? How? All the underlying molecular components and activity that are necessary to produce the specific causal chain of events producing consciousness and one's sense of self (and all other mental phenomena for that matter and all inter-associations between all phenomena) would be in an unknown and unfamiliar state--complete chaos--resulting from both the complete shut down and turn up of the brain. Saying that the process is "baked in" by the structure is again an appeal to magic. As an aside, I am sure that there is not enough information in the DNA to specify the neural structures that you claim are "baked in" and persist to produce one's consciousness and sense of self. So again you have to explain not only how the neural circuits that give rise to consciousness can somehow magically appear from random connections in the brain, you also have to explain how it evolved and you also have to explain what material causation can even account for consciousness, thought, memory, etc. The explanatory power of an immaterial mind to produce complex specified information is effectively infinite. In another post I asked if we started receiving signals from the far reaches of outer space that used an unfamiliar modulation scheme and encoding scheme, yet when demodulated and decoded produced the Bible, I am sure that your response would not be something like: “Well, we know it is some natural phenomenon because the explanatory power of an immaterial (intelligent) mind is zero." Yet the complexity you are claiming occurs strictly through material causes in the brain far exceeds the complexity of the signals I used in this example of space communication. This is going to have to be it for me for a day or two. I am swamped and way behind on things. Be well.nkendall
May 1, 2015
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Of related interest to undermining Bill's materialistic assumption: God, Immanuel Kant, Richard Dawkins, and the Quantum. - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQOwMX4bCqkbornagain77
May 1, 2015
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Bill @30, Only by operating from a materialist assumption could your response be at all viable. I have heard all that stuff. Just because we observe activity in the brain during thought does not mean it causes thought. I have a busy day to day so I will have to get back to you later with a more detailed response. In the mean please explain in some level of detail how thought is represented in the brain and how it is registered in one's consciousness. Also what are the structures that you claim give rise to self-hood and are "backed in". Be well.nkendall
May 1, 2015
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Jim Smith:
Two selves produced by a split brain would not conflict with belief in a soul.
Nkendall’s argument is premised on a putatively unchanging sense of self, identity, memory, and so forth in the face of drastic physical events, such as “standstill.” You acknowledge that split brains may produce “two selves.” If that’s not a change in the sense self, identity, memory etc., (a "profound disruption of the experience of a unitary self") then I don’t know what is. Andre:
There it is Bill denying that there is such a thing as the law of causality, foundational to science but not for Bill’s religion.
In what way do my posts above "deny that there is such a thing as the law of causality?"Reciprocating Bill
May 1, 2015
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There it is Bill denying that there is such a thing as the law of causality, foundational to science but not for Bill's religion.Andre
April 30, 2015
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Two selves produced by a split brain would not conflict with belief in a soul. The brain does not produce consciousness it filters consciousness. http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_fallacies#skeptical_fallacies_brain Broken sunglasses might produce double vision, or if you put your finger across the opening of a hose when watering your garden, you can get two streams of water coming out of it. This is entirely compatible with many personal spiritual experiences that suggest we are all part of the same oneness. http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2015/03/realizing-ultimate.html
He saw this Beingness as something like a comb. He was at the spine of the comb and all the teeth fanned out from it, each one thinking it was separate and different from all the other teeth. And that was true, but only if you looked at it from the tooth end of the comb. Once you got back to the spine or source, you could see that it wasn't true.
Moving awareness to the base of the comb is not like losing individuality, it is like remembering who you really are.Jim Smith
April 30, 2015
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Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't believe all molecular activity can cease unless the brain is cooled to absolute zero. What is meant, I think, is that electrical activity ceases. Now back to the very interesting discussion! :)anthropic
April 30, 2015
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