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Aurelio Smith’s Analysis of Active Information

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Recently, Aurelio Smith had a guest publication here at Uncommon Descent entitled Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information. Most of the post is taken up by a recounting of the history of active information. He also quotes the criticisms of Felsentein and English which have responded to at Evolution News and Views: These Critics of Intelligent Design Agree with Us More Than They Seem to Realize. Smith then does spend a few paragraphs developing his own objections to active information.

Smith argues that viewing evolution as a search is incorrect, because organisms/individuals aren’t searching, they are being acted upon by the environment:

Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”.

When we say search we simply mean a process that can be modeled as a probability distribution. Smith’s concern is irrelevent to that question. However, even if we are trying to model evolution as a optimization or solution-search problem Smith’s objection doesn’t make any sense. The objects of a search are always passive in the search. Objecting that the organisms aren’t searching is akin to objecting that easter eggs don’t find themselves. That’s not how any kind of search works. All search is the environment acting on the objects in the search.

Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

This is a rather strange comment. Smith quoted our discussion of Avida previously. But here he implies that we’ve only ever discussed Dawkin’s Weasel program. We’ve discussed Avida, Ev, Steiner Trees, and Metabiology. True, we haven’t looked at Wright’s paper, but its completely unreasonable to suggest that we’ve only discussed Dawkin’s “poor model.”

Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt.

It is true that a static fitness landscape is an insufficient model for biology. That is why our work on conservation of information does not assume a static fitness landscape. Our model is deliberately general enough to handle any kind of feedback mechanism.

While I’m grateful for Smith taking the time to writeup his discussion, I find it very confused. The objections he raises don’t make any sense.

Comments
What, exactly, would be the point of restoring Aurelio Smith’s posts? He never engaged Winston on anything of substance.
I disagree, but the curious-minded will have to visit reality-based sites to review the dialog and make up their own minds, if they dare. Of course, I do see the point, from the ID-proponent's perspective, of not restoring Aurelio's posts to this thread, titled as it is in his honor.DNA_Jock
May 12, 2015
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What, exactly, would be the point of restoring Aurelio Smith's posts? He never engaged Winston on anything of substance.Mung
May 12, 2015
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Winston, All of Aurelio Smith`s posts have disappeared from this thread and others; could you see if they could be restored? Only some of them have been cached elsewhere.DNA_Jock
May 9, 2015
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Thank you, Winston, for your good humoured and intelligent responses in this thread. The two remarkable things I have learned about active information are: 1) Unlike endogenous and exogenous information, it is not a measure of probability. I found this surprising because I always thought that the ID community defined information in terms of the improbability of the result. 2) It is a measure of bias but what counts as bias is a matter of opinion depending on your view of what is a natural distribution. So although in any given context calculating the active information is objective (assuming the exogenous and endogenous information are objective) its significance appears to be subjective.Mark Frank
May 5, 2015
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If you are going to propose a method of detecting design based on the probability of that pattern under the null of no-design, you need to show how you compute that probability objectively.
Here's the thing. Dembski's specified complexity was intended to be used together with other argument. I.e. you combine irreducible complexity and specified complexity, or axe's work on proteins and irreducible complexity, etc. It is not intended as a complete method of design detection by itself. Yet, you continually try to insists that its supposed to be and argue against it on that basis. It is like you complaining that a gasoline tank doesn't work very well as a car. Well duh! of course it doesn't. We ought to be arguing about whether or not biological features are improbable. But every time that I try to point in that direction you accuse me of changing the subject.
The upshot is that in 2010, what you are referring to now as the bias of the initial universe, and are declining to explain, was what Dembski and Marks said could come only from intelligence.
Allow me to quote from that paper:
Likewise, the LCI Regress, as noted in the last bullet point, suggests that intelligence is ultimately the source of the information that accounts for successful
The language used is that of suggestion, not of proving. Indeed, the fact that all active information had to be present at the origin of universe is suggestive of an ID view of things. Nevertheless, it is only suggestive. Your claims about my alleged sneaky change in what I'm saying are simply incorrect. I've merely clarified an area around which an unfortunate level of confusion has arisen.
Winston, The bacterial flagellum doesn’t have a P(T|H)- not one multi-protein complex has one. That is the whole problem and Dr Johnson goes over that in “Nature’s Probability and Probability’s Nature”.
It is true. The Darwinists have taken the line that we can't prove that the flagellum has a low probability. They have done almost nothing to demonstrate that it has a high probability. One could argue that the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate they have a working theory. I don't like to go there because I'm very suspicious of people who try to shift burdens of proof. With that, I'm going to have bow out of this thread. I've given it as much of my time and effort as I can. Thanks to everyone for participating.Winston Ewert
May 4, 2015
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Winston Ewert:
It poses a problem only for a Darwinist who thinks that all that matters is selection, replication, and mutation, and the laws of physics don’t matter and could equally as well be anything.
Elizabeth Liddle:
I’ve never actually met a “Darwinist” who thought any such thing. It would be a bizarre position.
This is presumably the same Elizabeth Liddle who wrote the following:
The fact that we design the physics chemistry, the environment, and the initial population are irrelevant
Mung
May 4, 2015
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Winston Ewert and Elizabeth Liddle: Dembski actually says nothing about Behe in "Specification: The Pattern that Signifies Intelligence" (2005). The bacterial flagellum serves primarily as an example in that paper. Dembski does not make a strong claim to have rejected strictly naturalistic cause in favor of some degree of supernatural ("non-natural") design. He relegates to endnote 33 his own “Irreducible Complexity Revisited” (2004), in which he ostensibly defends Behe's concept, but in fact revises (perhaps strengthens) it. Winston tries to tell a story of how the pieces of ID fit together neatly, and Elizabeth enables by flitting freely between 2005 and 2015. To my knowledge, Dembski has not framed design detection as rejection of strictly naturalistic (or material) cause since 2008. The fact is that he has abandoned even the "information accounting" conclusion of his last paper with Winston (DEM), and has undertaken development of an equivocal "maybe it's due to God, maybe it's intrinsic to nature" teleology in Being as Communion (2014). Winston, you surreptitiously package Being as Communion as a response to what Felsenstein and English wrote about DEM. No one who's read and comprehended the book would fail to see what you're doing at ENV and in this thread. Elizabeth, you're dripping with brilliance, and I hate to see you waste your energies on arguments with people who don't have a clue that the leading ID proponents (including Winston) have left them behind. And why, Winston, do they not have a clue? Could it be that you and your colleagues never say outright, "Well, we decided to modify our approach. Here's why. Here's how the new is connected to the old." (Why have you never made explicit the mathematical relation of active information and specified complexity?) Lacking an explanation, I suppose that Dembski's foremost concern is to develop a sort of teleology that can survive a test in federal court. After all, it was just five years ago that he and Marks boldly proclaimed, in "Life's Conservation Law: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information,"
Though not denying Darwinian evolution or even limiting its role in the history of life, the Law of Conservation of Information shows that Darwinian evolution is inherently teleological. Moreover, it shows that this teleology can be measured in precise information-theoretic terms.
The measure was, of course, active information. According to one of the sections of the paper, "Intelligence Creates Information" -- meaning that only intelligence creates information. The upshot is that in 2010, what you are referring to now as the bias of the initial universe, and are declining to explain, was what Dembski and Marks said could come only from intelligence. In short, Winston is introducing, unannounced, a revised perspective on life, the universe, and all that. Elizabeth should take some time out for reading, or she'll contribute to the sound and the fury.SimonLeberge
May 4, 2015
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Elizabeth, It is up to evolutionists to provide P(T|H). That is because they don't have any models nor evidence to support their claims and that means probabilities are all that is left to "test" the concept of unguided evolution. Yet, as Dr Johnson has pointed out, you and yours can't even demonstrate a feasibility, let alone a probability. By being included in a probability discussion you and yours are getting more than you deserve. We infer Intelligent design due to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, ie science. We apply scientific methodology to test our inferences and so far they have come out OK.
But biology qua science doesn’t claim to have demonstrated No-Design. It wouldn’t be a scientific claim.
And yet that is what is being taught in biology classrooms. That is what Darwin espoused- that was his whole point of natural selection. Mayr said teleology is not allowed in biology. Go talk to Jerry Coyne, he will tell you what he teaches in his classes. Hopefully you will be joining us in protest against such a thing.Joe
May 4, 2015
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Winston (thanks for engaging by the way! Good to talke to you!):
In that case, Dembski is appealing to Behe. He believes that Behe has sufficiently demonstrated that the bacterial flagellum has a very low P(T|H). He’s not offering a new way to compute P(T|H). He’s borrowing Behe’s. The whole argument looks like this: 1) Because of irreducible complexity, the bacterial flagellum is really improbable. 2) If the bacterial flagellum is really improbable, it didn’t evolve. Dembski’s work on specified complexity only tries to prove point 2. He assumes that point 1 was already established by Behe. I think that many people would have regarded point 2 as too obvious to need a proof and much confusion has resulted.
And that was always the problem. Behe did NOT establish any value for P(T|H). He simply made the argument that because it doesn't work if any part is removed, it can't evolve by incremental advantageous steps, and therefore it can only have happened by the coincidence. Firstly he did not compute the probability of it happening in the absence of incremental advantageous steps; secondly he ignored the possiblity of those steps being advantageous but by performing some other function; thirdly he ignored the fact that incremental steps can take away as well as add (as in an arch); fourthly he redefined (then re-redefined) IC as a continuous measure of the number of unselected steps needed to reach an IC structure, ignoring the fact that this is not computable (and Dembski ignored the fact that Pallen and Matzke had actually shown a pathway with selectable steps); and finally, and most seriously, Behe ignored drift, which allows even quite disadvantageous, and certainly neutral, variants to become quite prevalent, thus hugely increasing the probability that one of those variants will undergo the a mutation that makes the disadvantageous mutation useful. So much for Behe! But we can ignore most of that, because the more serious problem is Dembski's, which is, essentially that of the mouse who suggested "belling the cat". If you are going to propose a method of detecting design based on the probability of that pattern under the null of no-design, you need to show how you compute that probability objectively. If all it requires is for someone to look at the thing and say "that's very improbable under the null of no design", then the method is no better than "if it looks designed, it must be". If you are going to base a methodology for design detection based on probability estimates, then you need to have an objective methodology for computing those probability estimates that doesn't rest on your own skepticism regarding the probability of the non-design alternatives. And nobody has ever shown how to compute P(T|H) which is why it remains the eleP(T|H)ant in the room. Unless, of course, ID retreats to the design of the physics that facilitates the molecular biology!
If “the laws of physics could be anything”, then under most alternative scenarios, there could be no such ancestral forms of life. There could be no reproduction; there could be no mapping of similar genotypes on to similar phenotypes; there could be no heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment. You statement simply tells us that our universe is life-friendly
But is the universe life-friendly? Does the configuration of the universe actually make the emergence and evolution of life probable? Are the properties that you mention sufficient? Nobody has demonstrated that those properties are sufficient to make the evolution of complex life probable. On the other hand, nobody has demonstrated that they are insufficient.
Precisely. So we can neither infer Design, or No-Design from our observations of complex life. Which is fine. I don't infer No-Design. I just don't infer Design (which is entirely orthogonal to the question as to whether I believe in God or not). But biology qua science doesn't claim to have demonstrated No-Design. It wouldn't be a scientific claim. On the other hand ID, up till now, HAS claimed to infer Design: "Specification: the Pattern that Signifies Intelligence". So there's an assymmetry there, which is unfortunate, I think.
Active information shouldn’t be taken as a convoluted fine tuning argument. It should be taken as raising questions. What kind of universe is required for complex life to emerge, and do we live in that kind of universe?
And it's a very interesting set of questions. But they are a long way from inferring an Intelligent Designer from a bacterial flagellum!Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Carpathisn, You are confused as there isn't any "ID against evolution"Joe
May 4, 2015
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kairosfocus:
Carpathian, yes, design is tough to do. Especially when designed items have to function in a complex and partly uncontrolled and dynamic environment.
Exactly. I'm trying to put together a software simulation platform that will allow us to test ID against evolution and my problem is how quickly I can recover from an ID mistake. If I release 10,000 copies of organism X into an environment, I need to be able to "recall" them much as a car manufacturer would a vehicle that needs an update. By the time I do this, my ecosystem might be in unrecoverable trouble, especially if X reproduces quickly. In this case, I might now have 100,000 copies to update in order to contain the damage. It seems that only very slow changes might be manageable but that would rule out fast massive change in body plans.Carpathian
May 4, 2015
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Winston, The bacterial flagellum doesn't have a P(T|H)- not one multi-protein complex has one. That is the whole problem and Dr Johnson goes over that in "Nature's Probability and Probability's Nature".Joe
May 4, 2015
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And while he did not say how to compute P(T|H) in a way that “takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms”, the fact that he chose this example suggests that he considered it small enough to pass the Specification test.
In that case, Dembski is appealing to Behe. He believes that Behe has sufficiently demonstrated that the bacterial flagellum has a very low P(T|H). He's not offering a new way to compute P(T|H). He's borrowing Behe's. The whole argument looks like this: 1) Because of irreducible complexity, the bacterial flagellum is really improbable. 2) If the bacterial flagellum is really improbable, it didn't evolve. Dembski's work on specified complexity only tries to prove point 2. He assumes that point 1 was already established by Behe. I think that many people would have regarded point 2 as too obvious to need a proof and much confusion has resulted.
If “the laws of physics could be anything”, then under most alternative scenarios, there could be no such ancestral forms of life. There could be no reproduction; there could be no mapping of similar genotypes on to similar phenotypes; there could be no heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment. You statement simply tells us that our universe is life-friendly
But is the universe life-friendly? Does the configuration of the universe actually make the emergence and evolution of life probable? Are the properties that you mention sufficient? Nobody has demonstrated that those properties are sufficient to make the evolution of complex life probable. On the other hand, nobody has demonstrated that they are insufficient. Active information shouldn't be taken as a convoluted fine tuning argument. It should be taken as raising questions. What kind of universe is required for complex life to emerge, and do we live in that kind of universe?Winston Ewert
May 4, 2015
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Mark Frank:
2) Critic claims that these features can be explained as the result of Darwinian processes.
The critics don't have any evidence nor any models. They won't even say what unguided evolution entails. The critics lose.Joe
May 4, 2015
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@ Elisabeth Your rock sorting example only gives quick results because it's a two step process, like Darwinian evolution. Shaking the box provides the random input, separating the rocks by varying amounts. The little rocks then fall into the spaces between the large rocks thanks to law-like gravity. The sorting is done because little rocks can fall between large rocks, but not vice-versa. Without those lawful components, you could shake the box till the cows came home and there would be no sorting, just a series of rocks in random positions. That makes it even more amazing that Dembski overlooks the importance of the law-like component of evolution to the extent that his Explanatory Filter can't even test it, yet he claims the EF is reliable. I've been hoping that Winston could have a talk with his mentor about this and other important problems with Dembski's theories that nobody at the Evolutionary Information Lab seems to be aware of.MatSpirit
May 4, 2015
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Mung: Where does “aboutness” come from? Evolution is essentially a learning process. fifthmonarchyman: geez Z: If you claim there is scientific evidence of design in weather or biology, then we disagree. f: The claim is that these things can not be produced algorithmically without the addition of active information. Winston Ewert: As another example, consider the question of why the water on earth is predominately located in the oceans and isn’t uniformly distributed throughout the earth’s atmosphere. There is a high amount of active information in the target of having full oceans. There must something in the laws of the universe that make this happen. The answer is pretty obvious: gravity. So a simple force adds active information?Zachriel
May 4, 2015
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MF says, 3) IDer argues if you assume the world is not conducive to Darwninian processes then Darwinian processes cannot explain the world. I say, That is quite a sentence you have there. Care to parse it for me. If it means what I think it means then you have completely misunderstood the implications of the paper peacefifthmonarchyman
May 4, 2015
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#244 5MM The discussion above went more like this: 1) IDer posits that certain features of the universe are best explained as being the product of design. 2) Critic claims that these features can be explained as the result of Darwinian processes. 3) IDer argues if you assume the world is not conducive to Darwninian processes then Darwinian processes cannot explain the world. 4) Critic points out he never assumed that. 5) IDist proclaims "therefore Design"Mark Frank
May 4, 2015
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What I see here is a process like this. 1) IDer posits that certain features of the universe are best explained as being the product of design. 2) Critic claims that these features can instead be explained as the result of Darwinian processes. 3) IDer presents proof that Darwinian processes are not up to the task. 4) Critic declares victory in forcing IDer to abandon his original position. When faced with such logic the best approach is an eye roll. ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
May 4, 2015
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Elizabeth:
And while he did not say how to compute P(T|H) in a way that “takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms”, the fact that he chose this example suggests that he considered it small enough to pass the Specification test.
Elizabeth, no one knows how to calculate P(T|H) for most biological structures because evolutionary biologists cannot provide any numbers. They can't provide any numbers because they have no idea- they can't even model their claims. That is the real “eleP(T|H)ant in the Room”, Lizzie. Your position can't even say if there is a feasibility let alone provide any actual evidence or a probability.Joe
May 4, 2015
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Lizzie: You statement simply tells us that our universe is life-friendly. Which is simply not under dispute.
If you have no problem with the idea that all the information of life is already present in the laws of physics, then fine. However, you should realize that a little probability arithmetic will show that such incredibly fine-tuned laws inevitably point to a designer.
Lizzie: Now you are saying that the Dembski project, at least, presents no problem for Darwinian evolution (and I agree)(...)
You do understand that it presents the problem: "where does the information come from", right? IOW it does present a problem for "not-front-loaded unguided evolution".Box
May 4, 2015
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Winston:
It poses a problem only for a Darwinist who thinks that all that matters is selection, replication, and mutation, and the laws of physics don’t matter and could equally as well be anything.
I've never actually met a "Darwinist" who thought any such thing. It would be a bizarre position. But Winston, with respect, this seems a little disingenuous. For years, William Dembski appeared to be arguing that we could infer a Designer from the complexity (Specified Complexity) of biological organisms because Darwinian processes couldn't produce them with adequate probability (in fact, he often said that Specified Complexity was closely related to Irreducible Complexity, which is presumably why that terrible rendering of a bacterial flagellum still heads this site's page). Darwin has been in the sights of the ID movement for years, and Behe was front and centre at the Dover trial. Here is Dembski in "Specification: the Pattern that Signifies Intelligence":
Next, define p = P(T|H) as the probability for the chance formation for the bacterial flagellum. T, here, is conceived not as a pattern but as the evolutionary event/pathway that brings about that pattern (i.e., the bacterial flagellar structure). Moreover, H, here, is the relevant chance hypothesis that takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms.
And while he did not say how to compute P(T|H) in a way that "takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms", the fact that he chose this example suggests that he considered it small enough to pass the Specification test. Now you are saying that the Dembski project, at least, presents no problem for Darwinian evolution (and I agree) unless that Darwinian theory posits that "the laws of physics don't matter". Darwin's theory was always predicated, not just on the laws of physics, but specifically, on the existence of ancestral forms of life that reproduced with heritable variance in reproductive success. If "the laws of physics could be anything", then under most alternative scenarios, there could be no such ancestral forms of life. There could be no reproduction; there could be no mapping of similar genotypes on to similar phenotypes; there could be no heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment. You statement simply tells us that our universe is life-friendly. Which is simply not under dispute. Thank you for the rest of the your post. Yes, I basically agree. And in fact, I suggest, that many of Dembski's critics have been making this point for years - that what you have written there is all his case amounts to - namely a case against a straw man. Which was why I used to make lame jokes about the "eleP(T|H)ant in the Room". If the argument here is, essentially, "oh Darwinian evolution works just fine, but it requires as a prerequisite a universe in which the laws of physics and chemistry are something like the ones we observe in ours" any Design Inference does boils back down some kind of fine-tuning argument. Or a variant on Aquinas: "why is there low entropy structure rather than high-entropy mush?" Which is a good question, and one with potential metaphysical implications, but one more aligned with the position of, say BioLogos than that of the Discovery Institute. Or indeed, of most modern theology.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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WE:
Y’all have done a crazy amount of posting in my absence. There is no way I can keep up with this thread. But I’ll try to answer a few question.
Indeed. Feel free to address yourself to those comments you feel are actually relevant. Most are not. I call this the Entropy theory of Blog comments. [They mostly clump around irrelevance.] Many of us appreciate your comments here. At least some of us do our best not to misrepresent them.Mung
May 3, 2015
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Y'all have done a crazy amount of posting in my absence. There is no way I can keep up with this thread. But I'll try to answer a few question.
So if I take my natural distribution to be different from yours then something may biased for you but not for me? Yet active information is a measure of bias. Whose bias?
Indeed, if we choose different natural distribution the active information of the same search could be very different for me and you. You might conclude the universe had near-zero active information, and I might conclude it had a lot of active information. However, either way we come back to the same conclusion: the original configuration of the universe either had a natural distribution which made my target probable or had a strong bias to make my target probable.
OK, fine. If you don’t count tray shaking as Active Information addition, then I am happy to stipulate that the Universe already contained the information required to allow tray shaking. In that case Winston’s three options are, as I said, two, and we are no forrarder. Design and/or an inital low-entropy (i.e. lumpy, non-uniform) universe. Why should we infer Design?
As I stated in my ENV article, COI does not give us a solid reason to infer design. A darwinist can (and should) accept the COI as true without rejecting Darwinism. It poses a problem only for a Darwinist who thinks that all that matters is selection, replication, and mutation, and the laws of physics don't matter and could equally as well be anything.
That was not my reasoning! It would be very strange reasoning, as entropy is always increasing! And in any case, it would be fallacious, even if the premises were true, which they aren’t.
Indeed, it would be rather bizarre reasoning, you'll have to forgive my typo. What's the difference between entropy and active information? Active information is a consequence of probability. It doesn't assume anything about the laws of physics. This is useful for being able to make limited claims about universes that we know nothing about. As long as they operate according to a stochastic process, we can claim that they follow the conservation of information. We cannot make the same claim about entropy. For example, consider a universe which has only one law: gravity. It can start with a very uniform distribution of particles. It thus starts with high-entropy. Over time, the particles are attracted to each other into a giant ball those losing the entropy and transitioning to low-entropy. If we take our target to be that ball, we have a very large amount of active information. But the central point is that COI still applies, even through entropy goes in reverse in this imaginary universe. Another issues is that active information requires that the universe be biased towards some particular target. Low entropy merely requires that it be clumpy. In that way, active information is more specific. However, if I stick only with entropy, I can only look at the question in terms of the probabilities of states with similar entropy to birds. As another example, consider the question of why the water on earth is predominately located in the oceans and isn't uniformly distributed throughout the earth's atmosphere. There is a high amount of active information in the target of having full oceans. There must something in the laws of the universe that make this happen. The answer is pretty obvious: gravity. If I look at the same question from the perspective of entropy, what do we get? Certainly, having all the water in the ocean can be described as a low entropy state. Entropy tells us that this has to be paid for by increasing the entropy elsewhere. So to summarize: 1) Entropy is a physical law, conservation of information is a consequence of the laws of probability. 2) Active information is concerned with particular targets, entropy is concerned with non-uniformity in general 3) Active information is concerned with the underlying laws that made an outcome probable, entropy is concerned with balancing out local decreases in entropy with increases elsewhere.Winston Ewert
May 3, 2015
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Zac says, Are you claiming there is scientific evidence of design in weather? I say, geez no I'm claiming it is impossible to talk to you. peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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EL said, I dispute your premise. I say, It's not a premise it's a summary of the latest scientific findings on the subject EL said, I think we are born with the capacity to infer intention, and that in the early years some children may over-generalise I say, It's not just children adults universally make the same inference. We all do. It's how we are wired. check it out http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982 and http://www.icea.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/CAM/HADD.pdf and http://www.iep.utm.edu/theomind/ you say, there is no need to justify why erroneous assumptions, or defaults, we are “hard-wired” to entertain as children should not be replaced by evidence-based conclusions as we become mature enough to call our instinctive assumptions into question. I say, I'm not saying that we should not question our instinctive assumptions as more evidence becomes available. I'm saying that in order to be consistent we must have the same evidential standard for abandoning the design inference that we do for other innate assumptions. In other words in order to be justified in ignoring the universal assumption of design you need compelling evidence. Do you have such evidence? Peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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Zachriel:
The genome can incorporate information about its relationship to the environment through evolution.
Where does "aboutness" come from?Mung
May 3, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Most people can tell me very precisely [what Entropy is]. But not all will give the same definition [of what Entropy is].
That's one way to define precision, I suppose. Does entropy have mass and velocity?
I was talking about the flatness of the probability distribution of microstates (thermodynamics) or symbols(Shannon entropy), which is maximally flat when – sum p i * log p i is maximal.
1.) There is no such thing as Shannon entropy. 2.) Thermodynamics Let me quote from Wikipedia:
Thermodynamics is a branch of physics concerned with heat and temperature and their relation to energy and work. It defines macroscopic variables, such as internal energy, entropy, and pressure, that partly describe a body of matter or radiation. It states that the behavior of those variables is subject to general constraints, that are common to all materials, not the peculiar properties of particular materials. These general constraints are expressed in the four laws of thermodynamics. Thermodynamics describes the bulk behavior of the body, not the microscopic behaviors of the very large numbers of its microscopic constituents, such as molecules. Its laws are explained by statistical mechanics, in terms of the microscopic constituents.
Mung
May 3, 2015
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SimonLeberge:
Mung (224-225): Ewert has taken a big step away from DEM in his article at Evolution News and Views. You probably shouldn’t scour it for quotes.
Too late! I already mocked his use of entropy in that article. That said, if entropy is lumpiness and birds are lumpy then birds are entropy and entropy is for the birds.Mung
May 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: The claim is that these things can not be produced algorithmically without the addition of active information. It does not matter whether you agree or not only if you can disprove the claim, The genome can incorporate information about its relationship to the environment through evolution. Are you claiming there is scientific evidence of design in weather?Zachriel
May 3, 2015
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