Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has anyone else noticed the blatant political flavor of many sciencey mags these days?

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Yes, it was always there but recently, as the editors become ever more self-righteous (= Us vs. the Unwashed), it has become more open and that sure isn’t an improvement. Two items noted in passing:

Big Climate:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is an important organization with a primary purpose to assess the scientific literature on climate in order to inform policy…

Regrettably, the IPCC WG2 has strayed far from its purpose to assess and evaluate the scientific literature, and has positioned itself much more as a cheerleader for emissions reductions and produced a report that supports such advocacy. The IPCC exhorts: “impacts will continue to increase if drastic cuts in greenhouse gas emissions are further delayed – affecting the lives of today’s children tomorrow and those of their children much more than ours … Any further delay in concerted global action will miss a brief and rapidly closing window to secure a liveable future.”

The focus on emissions reductions is a major new orientation for WG2, which previously was focused exclusively on impacts, adaptation and vulnerability. The new focus on mitigation is explicit, with the IPCC WG2 noting (1-31) that its focus “expands significantly from previous reports” and now includes “the benefits of climate change mitigation and emissions reductions.” This new emphasis on mitigation colors the entire report, which in places reads as if adaptation is secondary to mitigation or even impossible. The IPCC oddly presents non-sequiturs tethering adaptation to mitigation, “Successful adaptation requires urgent, more ambitious and accelerated action and, at the same time, rapid and deep cuts in greenhouse gas emissions.”

Roger Pielke, Jr., “A Rapidly Closing Window to Secure a Liveable Future” at The Honest Broker Newsletter/Substack (March 2, 2022)

The relentless drum-banging will probably have the opposite effect of the one desired, especially when (as is sure to happen) some emission reduction strategies do much more harm than good and the boosters are running for cover, misrepresenting those outcomes in the name of “Trust the Science.”

And then there are the ridiculous efforts in popular science media to snuff out any awareness of the possibility that the virus that causes COVID-19 escaped from the Wuhan lab doing research on making viruses more powerful. How awful of any of us to suggest such a thing! Here’s an intro to a podcast on the topic:

We have featured the work of science writer Matt Ridley on several occasions over the years. Now he is the author (with Alina Chan) of the new book Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19. Brendan O’Neill has recorded a podcast with Ridley to discuss how the Covid-19 virus might have leaked from a lab in Wuhan and how scientists tried to suppress the lab-leak origin theory. Spiked has posted the podcast here. I have embedded it below.

The New York Times continues to flog the alleged natural origin of the plague. Most recently, the Times has promoted “new research” pointing to the live animal market in Wuhan as the origin: “Analyzing a wide range of data, including virus genes, maps of market stalls and the social media activity of early Covid-19 patients across Wuhan, the scientists concluded that the coronavirus was very likely present in live mammals sold at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in late 2019 and suggested that the virus spilled over into people working or shopping there on two separate occasions.” However, “some gaps” in the evidence still remain. “The new [unpublished] papers did not, for example, identify an animal at the market that spread the virus to humans.”

Scott Johnson, “The case for the lab-leak theory” at Powerline Blog (March 4, 2022)

More re Viral

Science writer Matt Ridley thinks science is reverting to a cult. Maybe his next book should be about that.

Comments
I'm sure you can find quotes that agree with you. Argument by accumulation of quotes is not a very strong method. Meyer is making the same mistakes you are. Merely quoting him saying the same things you do doesn't actually address the arguments being made against his, and yours, views.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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VL, to quote Dr. Meyer in full:
A Logically Contradictory View In the first place, some formulations of theistic evolution that affirm the third meaning of evolution result in logical contradictions. For example, if the theistic evolutionist means to affirm the standard neo-Darwinian view of the natural selection/mutation mechanism as an undirected process while simultaneously affirming that God is still causally responsible for the origin of new forms of life, then the theistic evolutionist implies that God somehow guided or directed an unguided and undirected process. Logically, no intelligent being — not even God — can direct an undirected process. As soon as he directs it, the “undirected” process would no longer be undirected. On the other hand, a proponent of theistic evolution may conceive of the natural selection/mutation mechanism as a directed process (with God perhaps directing specific mutations). This view represents a decidedly non-Darwinian conception of the evolutionary mechanism. It also constitutes a version of the theory of intelligent design — one that affirms that God intelligently designed organisms by actively directing mutations (or other processes) toward functional endpoints during the history of life. Yet, if living organisms are the result of a directed process, then it follows that the appearance of design in living organisms is real, not merely apparent or illusory. Nevertheless, chief proponents of theistic evolution reject the theory of intelligent design with its claim that the appearance of design in living organisms is real. Thus, any proponent of theistic evolution who affirms that God is directing the evolutionary mechanism, and who also rejects intelligent design, implicitly contradicts himself. (Of course, there is no contradiction in affirming both a God-guided mechanism of evolution and intelligent design, though few theistic evolutionists have publicly taken this view — see Ratzsch, Nature, Design, and Science for a notable exception.17 ) https://www.discovery.org/a/defining-theistic-evolution/
bornagain77
March 7, 2022
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Andrew: So one example of what I am commenting about is, almost invariably, opposition to ID is motivated by hostility to Christianity. I suspect Scamp is in this camp.
And what do you base this assumption on? My opposition to the tactics used by the trucker protest? How is that anti-ID or anti-Christian?
But, we’ll never know because he won’t be honest about it.
Not bringing personal worldview, religion or political leaning into discussions that have nothing to do with them is not been dishonest. It is just being pragmatic. If my worldview, religion or political leaning have nothing to do with what I am discussion, why muddy the waters with raising them.
Why argue about protests at UD of all places?
Because UD dedicated several OPs to them.
Aren’t there larger “better” venues for Scamp to impart his wisdom?
Yes. I also post on Twitter and Facebook, but those applications are not amenable to good discussions.Scamp
March 7, 2022
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BA, you write, "Well, if holding that God can direct an undirected process is not to be considered logically ‘confused’ then nothing else is to be considered logically ‘confused’ either." Of course, TE's don't believe the metaphysical interpretation of materialism, but I think all Christians believe that what looks like luck to us can be actually directed by God's will. For instance, someone will by chance miss a plane that crashes and kills everyone, and that person will say that "God didn't mean for me to die right now." So TE's are not confused: their theological metaphysics is such that they understand that what we see from our point of view is quite limited, but they believe that all that happens is as God wills, even though how that happens is beyond our comprehension.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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Andrew: No, but I would have to know if someone is applying arguments consistently, and why and when they argue them the way they do. This requires the next level of info.
Why do you need to know why they are arguing for something? The person's motivation for arguing what they do is not important. For example, my motive for making the arguments I do could be to trigger reactions from those I know are opposed to them (that is not my motivation, btw). But just because a person's motivation is not "noble" doesn't mean that their arguments don't have merit.Scamp
March 7, 2022
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VL at 70: "Your view (that human evolution is false) is in a distinct minority, BA, but you can have it if you want." So what? Science is not a popularity contest.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had. Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period." - Michael Crichton
And again, as far as the scientific evidence itself is actually concerned, human evolution is NOT true.
Jan. 2022 Fossil Record refutes human evolution https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-fox-news-adam-and-eve-are-compatible-with-evolution/#comment-744141 November 2021 – Human evolution? – the evidence from genetics, (as well as the mathematics of population genetics itself), falsifies, instead of supports, the Darwinian claim that humans evolved some chimp-like ancestor. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740245 November 2021 – Human exceptionalism refutes Darwinian evolution https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740249 Darwinists, (in what makes the ‘problem’ of explaining the origin of the human species pale in comparison), have no clue whatsoever why “I”, as an individual person within the human species, should even come into existence as a person.,, As an “I” with a unique subjective, conscious, experience. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/casey-luskin-the-mytho-history-of-adam-eve-and-william-lane-craig/#comment-740568
After appealing to consensus science, VL goes on, "You may think TE’s are confused, but I don’t, and I’m sure they don’t either." Well, if holding that God can direct an undirected process is not to be considered logically 'confused' then nothing else is to be considered logically 'confused' either.
Defining Theistic Evolution An Introduction to the book Theistic Evolution: A Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Critique Stephen Meyer - Feb. 1, 2019 Excerpt: A Logically Contradictory View In the first place, some formulations of theistic evolution that affirm the third meaning of evolution result in logical contradictions. For example, if the theistic evolutionist means to affirm the standard neo-Darwinian view of the natural selection/mutation mechanism as an undirected process while simultaneously affirming that God is still causally responsible for the origin of new forms of life, then the theistic evolutionist implies that God somehow guided or directed an unguided and undirected process. Logically, no intelligent being — not even God — can direct an undirected process. As soon as he directs it, the “undirected” process would no longer be undirected. https://www.discovery.org/a/defining-theistic-evolution/
And that is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to the confusion of TEs (and Darwinists). Most Theistic Evolutionists, such as S. Joshua Swamidass, toe the fallacious 'methodological naturalism' party line for 'doing science' that Darwinists have erroneously 'drawn in the sand'.
Why Methodological Naturalism? Science does not search for all sorts of Truth. Rather, science is limited effort to explain the world on its own terms, without invoking God. S. Joshua Swamidass Mainstream science seeks “our best explanation of the world, without considering God.” This limiting clause,“without considering God,” is the rule of Methodological Naturalism (MN). https://peacefulscience.org/articles/methodological-naturalism/
Yet forcing science into a 'methodological naturalism' straitjacket forces science itself into catastrophic epistemological failure. First off, and before I get into that, (far from science being based on the fallacious rule of methodological naturalism), science itself was born out of, and is still crucially dependent upon, essential Judeo-Christian presuppositions. Stephen Meyer, (Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge), in his recent book, “Return of the God hypothesis”, lists the three necessary Judeo-Christian presuppositions that lay at the founding of modern science in Medieval Christian Europe as such.
“Science in its modern form arose in the Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world”, because only the Christian West possessed the necessary “intellectual presuppositions”. – Ian Barbour Presupposition 1: The contingency of nature “In 1277, the Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, writing with support of Pope John XXI, condemned “necessarian theology” and 219 separate theses influenced by Greek philosophy about what God could and couldn’t do.”,, “The order in nature could have been otherwise (therefore) the job of the natural philosopher, (i.e. scientist), was not to ask what God must have done but (to ask) what God actually did.” Presupposition 2: The intelligibility of nature “Modern science was inspired by the conviction that the universe is the product of a rational mind who designed it to be understood and who (also) designed the human mind to understand it.” (i.e. human exceptionalism), “God created us in his own image so that we could share in his own thoughts” – Johannes Kepler Presupposition 3: Human Fallibility “Humans are vulnerable to self-deception, flights of fancy, and jumping to conclusions.”, (i.e. original sin), Scientists must therefore employ “systematic experimental methods.” (Francis Bocon’s inductive methodology) – Stephen Meyer on Intelligent Design and The Return of the God Hypothesis – Hoover Institution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8PPO-cAlA
Science simply can't be done without presupposing Theism to be true. As Paul Davies stated, "even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.”
Physics and the Mind of God: The Templeton Prize Address – by Paul Davies – August 1995 Excerpt: “People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature-the laws of physics-are simply accepted as given, as brute facts. Nobody asks where they came from; at least they do not do so in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.” https://www.firstthings.com/article/1995/08/003-physics-and-the-mind-of-god-the-templeton-prize-address-24
Directly contrary to what Darwinists and Theistic evolutionists falsely believe, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on Judeo-Christian presuppositions of Intelligent Design and is certainly not based on the superfluous presupposition of methodological naturalism.
Moreover, from the essential Christian presuppositions that undergird the founding of modern science itself, (namely that the universe is contingent and rational in its foundational nature and that the minds of men, being made in the ‘image of God’, can, therefore, dare understand the rationality that God has imparted onto the universe), to the intelligent design of the scientific instruments and experiments themselves, to the logical and mathematical analysis of experimental results themselves, from top to bottom, science itself is certainly not to be considered a ‘natural’ endeavor of man. Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place. Again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism.
Moreover, and again, forcing science into a 'methodological naturalism' straitjacket, (as both Darwinists and Theistic Evolutionists are intent on doing), forces science itself into catastrophic epistemological failure.
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist. and/or Theistic Evolutionists, (who believes Darwinian evolution to be true) is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris, Coyne), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. the illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who also must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the hopelessness of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is simply too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must also hold beauty itself to be illusory (Darwin). Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, A worldview without any true beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life? What an absolutely sad and depressing worldview to have to endure! No wonder Nietzsche's mental health deteriorated from clinical depression to dementia.
It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
March 7, 2022
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"UD has a lot of commenters who are very informed on the truth in lots of areas." Jerry, I agree with you on this. I've been hanging out here all these years because there are few other places these long days that cover truthfully the things that UD covers and comments on. Andrewasauber
March 7, 2022
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Why argue about protests at UD of all places
I assume that they think this site is occupied by ignorant rubes and an easy place to show them up. It’s what they are told in the outside world. Just the opposite is true. UD has a lot of commenters who are very informed on the truth in lots of areas. So the people coming here who hold anti ID beliefs are actually the people whose ignorance is easy to expose.jerry
March 7, 2022
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So one example of what I am commenting about is, almost invariably, opposition to ID is motivated by hostility to Christianity. I suspect Scamp is in this camp. But, we'll never know because he won't be honest about it. Why argue about protests at UD of all places? Aren't there larger "better" venues for Scamp to impart his wisdom? Andrewasauber
March 7, 2022
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some here assign labels to people who disagree with them
Most of the time, anti ID is enough. When someone is anti ID, they are using false arguments so that is probably an indication of their honesty in other areas. Usually when one sees the use of false or inane arguments, it indicates a lack on honesty so claims in other area are thus suspect. Now, a lot of what the average person assumes is untrue but has little affect on their lives. For example believing in naturalistic means for Evolution does little harm to everyday life. But to persist in these beliefs when shown how false they are is illuminatingjerry
March 7, 2022
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EDTA made the argument that fundamental principles make a difference, and gave abortion as an example. The political subjects here, such it justified to disrupt traffic for extended times in protest of government policies, for instance, is a different matter: I don't see how fundamental principle are very pertinent there. I'll also point out, again, that people have different fundamental principles, and we still live in society together, so we have to have, it seems to me, ways to discuss issues even when we are coming from different perspectives. And EDTA, I don't think it is correct to say I "bailed" on Waters argument. I am fairly mathematically literate and spend some time on it, and at some point I just couldn't understand his argument, which I think I said at the time (maybe I just quit the discussion, though - I can't remember.) This is definitely not a topic I want to bring up here, again, though!Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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"Do you dismiss a persons argument based on their worldview rather than on the merits of the argument?" Scamp, No, but I would have to know if someone is applying arguments consistently, and why and when they argue them the way they do. This requires the next level of info. Andrewasauber
March 7, 2022
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Andrew: You don’t want the people you oppose to know why you oppose them. It’s very relevant, and you want to hide it, because it would likely make you look bad if it became known.
Why? Do you dismiss a persons argument based on their worldview rather than on the merits of the argument? Thank you for supporting my claim that some here assign labels to people who disagree with them to justify dismissing their argument rather than addressing it.Scamp
March 7, 2022
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"But I have never stated my worldview. It is irrelevant to any argument I am making" Scamp, You don't want the people you oppose to know why you oppose them. It's very relevant, and you want to hide it, because it would likely make you look bad if it became known. Andrewasauber
March 7, 2022
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Your view is in a distinct minority, BA, but you can have it if you want. And I don't accept the "no true Scotsman argument." You may think TE's are confused, but I don't, and I'm sure they don't either. Not much more to be said about either of these issues.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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VS @ 49
But some of us have “followed you there”, and we have fundamental and unresolvable differences. What do we do then? Just not talk at all with each other about specific issues?
Correct. We should continue delving into the details of the fundamental and as-of-yet-unresolved issues. It is a waste of precious time to continue hashing over high-level issues. As SA points out above, we will just be talking past each other. (Which is 99.9999% of the internet...) As far as claiming that you have followed us there already, I must point out that we had a short conversation a while back about the matter of the finitude (or not) of the past. I was leading you through an explanation of Ben Water's argument for that. But you bailed out and we never finished. I think if we had finished, you would have been compelled to accept that time is finite going into the past. That is but one small piece of my cosmological understanding of things, but we could have built on that, and perhaps one of us would have changed a fundamental position at some point down the road based on it. That is how we can proceed here.EDTA
March 7, 2022
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SA: A person who is inconsistent with his own stated worldview is either dishonest or misinformed.
But I have never stated my worldview. It is irrelevant to any argument I am making, unless it is an argument about my worldview.
I asked you to do so but you refused to define your position. Do you think God exists or not? This is important on any question of origins.
When I make any arguments about origin, then you can ask me if I believe in God. Until then, it has no bearing on any arguments that I have made.Scamp
March 7, 2022
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VL, false in one, false in all, the context is, there is pervasive bias that comes through in explaining the pattern of employment that turns College into an independent mind killing zone. If you think an institution with breakdown of integrity on hiring will have integrity on grading, entertaining what is not in lockstep or is not a fellow traveller or will fairly assess grad students and colleagues -- some notorious cases come to mind [Bergman has a book full], think again. KF PS, while UD is not a theology blog with a panel of experts on tap, a note or two are in order. So, my comment is first that Biblical literalism is not the issue. cell based life has in it complex coded [so linguistic] algorithmic [so, goal directed] information, pointing to the only empirically known source of such, intelligently directed configuration. the pushing in of a theory that cannot account for the root of the tree of life, the cell, by imposed a priori materialism as Lewontin admitted, is itself exceedingly intellectually bankrupt. Proceeding to assert that it holds established authority to explain body plans, is further indefensible. And yet beyond doubt that is the state of the academy, so you are in effect admitting the ideological censorship of anthropology. Turning to sensus literalis, that means, take the weight of the words informed by ordinary objective principles, and there are serious scholars who argue for old vs young earth and/or cosmos. I dare to say any fundy who believes in six day creation 6kya, is in far better standing than one who imposes a blind mechanism without a foundation and demands that unless one goes along, one is to be put in the back of the academic bus. At least the 6kya thinker is sound enough to recognise what manifestly needs intelligently directed configuration to account for its origin. PPS, it looks like we are going to need to point out that anything beyond the span of record, i.e. history, is a speculative model of the past, beyond observation. We ought not to teach students and the general public to imagine that it is solid history, practically fact.kairosfocus
March 7, 2022
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VL, the belief that Humans gradually evolved from some chimp-like ancestor is a scientifically false claim whether you are a Darwinian materialist or not. Christians who believe in human evolution, i.e. Theistic Evolutionists, are, to put it mildly, confused in their Theology and science.
Book Review: Theistic Evolution: A Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Critique Edited by J. P. Moreland, Stephen C. Meyer, Christopher Shaw, Ann K. Gauger, and Wayne Grudem - June 14, 2018 https://apologetics315.com/2018/06/book-review-theistic-evolution-a-scientific-philosophical-and-theological-critique-edited-by-j-p-moreland-stephen-c-meyer-christopher-shaw-ann-k-gauger-and-wayne-grudem/#more-7807
bornagain77
March 7, 2022
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Wrong again, BA. First, as usual I think you are conflating a materialistic interpretation with other interpretations. I know of many Christians, many personally, who accept the theory of evolution from a non-materialistic viewpoint. Also, I said Biblical literalists, which only includes a portion of Christians. I wouldn't want to be on dig of native American sites that are 10,000 years old and have a colleague who believes the earth is 6,000 years old, for instance. And I don't think it would be "discriminating", in the prejudicial sense, to not want to hire someone for an anthropology position who denied such a fundamental notion as the age of the earth.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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VL at 59: "I would think being a Biblical literalist would be a poor quality if one were looking to hire an anthropologist." So VL is basically admitting that she believes human evolution to be true and would discriminate against Christians because of her bias in believing human evolution to be true. FWIW VL, as far as the science itself is actually concerned, human evolution is NOT true.
Jan. 2022 Fossil Record refutes human evolution https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-fox-news-adam-and-eve-are-compatible-with-evolution/#comment-744141 November 2021 - Human evolution? - the evidence from genetics, (as well as the mathematics of population genetics itself), falsifies, instead of supports, the Darwinian claim that humans evolved some chimp-like ancestor. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740245 November 2021 - Human exceptionalism refutes Darwinian evolution https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740249 Darwinists, (in what makes the ‘problem’ of explaining the origin of the human species pale in comparison), have no clue whatsoever why "I", as an individual person within the human species, should even come into existence as a person.,, As an "I" with a unique subjective, conscious, experience. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/casey-luskin-the-mytho-history-of-adam-eve-and-william-lane-craig/#comment-740568
bornagain77
March 7, 2022
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WJM
i think what you might mean is that my agreement that you’ve shown it may depend on my honesty, but that doesn’t change the fact that you’ve shown it. It doesn’t affect the validity of the argument itself one iota.
Right - my point is not merely that one is making syllogisms in a vacuum or in their own mind, but rather that we're discussing things here. Certainly, a person can make great arguments and never say them to anyone. But we discuss things to get feedback. We also want to help others learn and grow (and we want to do the same). If someone corrects me, I should accept it and change my view. Otherwise, we're going to waste a lot of time with me refusing to accept an obvious correction. This kills the discussion.
Not necessarily. They may erroneously be using the wrong tool to evaluate something, but that does not indicate dishonesty.
Fair enough. They're either dishonest, misinformed or incapable of understanding. We can't always determine which one it is. But if we try with solid arguments, and no refutation of them comes back, and the person just runs away, then returns with exactly the same, previously refuted arguments, then we can suspect dishonesty. It could be still that they have a mental block. But they should admit it. "I really can't see what you're saying". If they insist, however, that they're right without acknowledging or responding to the refutation, this violates the norms of discussion. We talk about arguing "in good faith". That's a statement about honesty.Silver Asiatic
March 7, 2022
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SA, see 59.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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KF @57 You posted the same reference to Yancey before I did - thanks. Yes, I think it's important for VL to acknowledge the evidence given and walk-back from the claim of fake news.Silver Asiatic
March 7, 2022
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Scamp
Yet, I was repeatedly labeled as being a fascist or an authoritarian or a left wing progressive, purely for the purpose of applying a label so that they can dismiss based on the label.
You're making a rash, unfounded (and incorrect) judgement in the phrase "purely for the purpose". You're judging the motives of why people are trying to identify your worldview. Consistency is a component of honesty. A person who is inconsistent with his own stated worldview is either dishonest or misinformed. For example, a person says "I'm not an anti-semite", but then later is seen attending Nazi rallies and demanding that Jews be killed. Obviously, there is a lack of consistency. The person is either dishonest when he says "I'm not an anti-semite" or he's misinformed (he doesn't know what the term means). A person who says "I'm an atheist" cannot later say "I believe God gave us equal rights". That's logically inconsistent. Again, it's either dishonest or misinformed.
I always defend my position.
I asked you to do so but you refused to define your position. Do you think God exists or not? This is important on any question of origins. If you think God exists, then God has some role (or you have to explain why God doesn't do anything). If you are an atheist, you have to give evidence to support that view.
With regard to whether my argument goes against my personal belief system, how would you be able to tell if this was the case?
I explained above but here's another example. The person says "I'm a materialist atheist". Then the person says "I think everyone should behave ethically, and if they don't they should be punished." This is logically inconsistent. It's a conflict. Materialism makes no ethical demands. Nihilism is tolerant and neural on any or every human behavior - as evolution must be.
For example, my mother still goes to church every Sunday but supports a woman’s right to have an abortion and same sex marriage, two views that many would consider contrary to Christianity. But they in no way run counter to her personal belief system.
Right. But the term "Christianity" can mean many things. If she stands up in Church and says "I believe that abortion is a sin and should never be permitted by law" but then goes and votes for candidates that want tax-payer supported free abortions, then she's got a conflict with her personal views. One or the other is incorrect. A person recites the Nicean Creed: "I believe ..." They stand up and state this in public, in the Church. "I believe Jesus rose from the dead". So, they make a public statement of faith. Then, you talk to them after the service and they say "I don't really believe in the resurrection - I think it's just a story or myth". They're contradicting themselves.Silver Asiatic
March 7, 2022
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The original statement by SA, which I doubted, didn't mention the specific context about hiring: it just said, "discriminate against Evangelical Christians." And here's a relevant question: what percent of Evangelical Christians are Biblical literalists? As EDTA is pointing out, lots starts with our fundamental assumptions, and I would think being a Biblical literalist would be a poor quality if one were looking to hire an anthropologist.Viola Lee
March 7, 2022
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SA said:
Well, you have to have a high degree of honesty to use that formula.
No, you don't. Just like I don't have to have a high degree of honesty to test any formula.
First, you have to have a commitment to the truth. If I show you that A, B and C does not give Z – you have to accept it.
It doesn't matter if I accept it or not. If you show it, you show it. It doesn't matter what I say about whether or not I think you've shown it. i think what you might mean is that my agreement that you've shown it may depend on my honesty, but that doesn't change the fact that you've shown it. It doesn't affect the validity of the argument itself one iota.
But if you’re dishonest, you won’t.
This explains why people jump to the conclusion that people who disagree with them are doing so because they are dishonest. They may be, or they may not understand the argument, or they may be cognitively blind to it; etc. For example, if I make the logical case that the only kind of reality we can functionally experience is mental, I don't assume those who disagree with the validity of that conclusion are being dishonest. You can't have a proper or productive debate or even a discussion if you assume disagreements indicate dishonesty. It's called the principle of charity. Thinking people are being dishonest in their interactions totally poisons every discussion, and also insulates the person making their argument from the possibility that they themselves are wrong.
When we start talking about God, for example, we have to be much more honest. We have to accept that we’re only going to come closer to understanding, but always be incapable of fully grasping God.
Much more honest than being honest?
A person, for example, who uses materialist science to analyze theology is dishonest.
Not necessarily. They may erroneously be using the wrong tool to evaluate something, but that does not indicate dishonesty.
A person who claims that materialism does not conflict with immaterial entities like rationality or logic is also dishonest.
See above. Also, being incapable of understanding the logic involved does not mean one is being dishonest.William J Murray
March 7, 2022
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VL, did you duly acknowledge the research findings published by Yancey? Do you acknowledge that they are a bit more than ill founded fakery and conspiracy theorising? KFkairosfocus
March 7, 2022
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Scamp: How does knowing my religion, lack of religion, sexual orientation, gender, voting history, favourite TV show or views on abortion affect this? SA: It tells us what kind of honesty, or lack thereof, you bring to the discussion.
Nonsense. In a previous thread I was arguing against the tactics used by the protesters because their intentions were to harass and cause suffering to innocent people. This view is held by many liberals, many conservatives, many Religious people and many atheists. Yet, I was repeatedly labeled as being a fascist or an authoritarian or a left wing progressive, purely for the purpose of applying a label so that they can dismiss based on the label.
If you’re only willing to attack, but not defend your own position – or if you’re going to take contradictory positions against your own personal belief system, this argues against your good faith presence here.
I always defend my position. With regard to whether my argument goes against my personal belief system, how would you be able to tell if this was the case? It is a personal belief system. For example, my mother still goes to church every Sunday but supports a woman’s right to have an abortion and same sex marriage, two views that many would consider contrary to Christianity. But they in no way run counter to her personal belief system.Scamp
March 7, 2022
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SA, we are back to the first duties of reason, the branch on which we all sit first principles that govern our rationality:
1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including <a href = "">warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.
KF PS: WJM and others were found objecting when these were put on the table, but clearly cannot even object without appealing to them. Pervasive first principles cannot be objected to without appealing to them, and attempted proofs also are found to already use them, so they are antecedent to proof, as the tin says on the label, self evident first principles.kairosfocus
March 7, 2022
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