Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has anyone else noticed the blatant political flavor of many sciencey mags these days?

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Yes, it was always there but recently, as the editors become ever more self-righteous (= Us vs. the Unwashed), it has become more open and that sure isn’t an improvement. Two items noted in passing:

Big Climate:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is an important organization with a primary purpose to assess the scientific literature on climate in order to inform policy…

Regrettably, the IPCC WG2 has strayed far from its purpose to assess and evaluate the scientific literature, and has positioned itself much more as a cheerleader for emissions reductions and produced a report that supports such advocacy. The IPCC exhorts: “impacts will continue to increase if drastic cuts in greenhouse gas emissions are further delayed – affecting the lives of today’s children tomorrow and those of their children much more than ours … Any further delay in concerted global action will miss a brief and rapidly closing window to secure a liveable future.”

The focus on emissions reductions is a major new orientation for WG2, which previously was focused exclusively on impacts, adaptation and vulnerability. The new focus on mitigation is explicit, with the IPCC WG2 noting (1-31) that its focus “expands significantly from previous reports” and now includes “the benefits of climate change mitigation and emissions reductions.” This new emphasis on mitigation colors the entire report, which in places reads as if adaptation is secondary to mitigation or even impossible. The IPCC oddly presents non-sequiturs tethering adaptation to mitigation, “Successful adaptation requires urgent, more ambitious and accelerated action and, at the same time, rapid and deep cuts in greenhouse gas emissions.”

Roger Pielke, Jr., “A Rapidly Closing Window to Secure a Liveable Future” at The Honest Broker Newsletter/Substack (March 2, 2022)

The relentless drum-banging will probably have the opposite effect of the one desired, especially when (as is sure to happen) some emission reduction strategies do much more harm than good and the boosters are running for cover, misrepresenting those outcomes in the name of “Trust the Science.”

And then there are the ridiculous efforts in popular science media to snuff out any awareness of the possibility that the virus that causes COVID-19 escaped from the Wuhan lab doing research on making viruses more powerful. How awful of any of us to suggest such a thing! Here’s an intro to a podcast on the topic:

We have featured the work of science writer Matt Ridley on several occasions over the years. Now he is the author (with Alina Chan) of the new book Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19. Brendan O’Neill has recorded a podcast with Ridley to discuss how the Covid-19 virus might have leaked from a lab in Wuhan and how scientists tried to suppress the lab-leak origin theory. Spiked has posted the podcast here. I have embedded it below.

The New York Times continues to flog the alleged natural origin of the plague. Most recently, the Times has promoted “new research” pointing to the live animal market in Wuhan as the origin: “Analyzing a wide range of data, including virus genes, maps of market stalls and the social media activity of early Covid-19 patients across Wuhan, the scientists concluded that the coronavirus was very likely present in live mammals sold at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in late 2019 and suggested that the virus spilled over into people working or shopping there on two separate occasions.” However, “some gaps” in the evidence still remain. “The new [unpublished] papers did not, for example, identify an animal at the market that spread the virus to humans.”

Scott Johnson, “The case for the lab-leak theory” at Powerline Blog (March 4, 2022)

More re Viral

Science writer Matt Ridley thinks science is reverting to a cult. Maybe his next book should be about that.

Comments
Silver Asiatic @737,
That’s scientism – it’s based on materialism, that material things are equivalent to reality.
Material things are a sort of reality, but if it turns out to be true that we’re living in a simulation as about 60% of physicists/cosmologists supposedly believe, then are the “pixels” reality? I’d say yes they are. But are those pixels all there is of reality? Certainly not. Even if we’re not living in a simulation, it’s certainly possible for a parallel universe to exist in part within our universe. For example, flatlanders can’t imagine that they inhabit only an infinitesimal part of our own 3D world. They would likely imagine that we don’t exist and cannot interact with their 2D world, but we can. Even in our own universe, dark energy accounts for about 69% of its mass, dark matter about 26%, leaving only about 5% to be directly observable.
That’s the point under consideration with ID. Is materialism true? We can go farther and ask “is scientism the correct method for understanding reality”?
Quantum Mechanics seems to falsify materialism and determinism. Researchers in QM claim that fundamental reality consists of interacting waves of probability and true randomness, information and mathematical logic, and conscious observation or measurement. Everything else, even space-time might be derived from these. And where do the laws of physics come from? Why are orbits elliptical as you were taught? They’re actually not. And how does meat become conscious and think? How can human measurement collapse a wave function as part of a von Neumann chain? Where does information, thought to be conserved, come from and how was it originally generated? Moving backward in time, we can measure the decrease in entropy, limited to where the number of microstates is 1 and the entropy equals 0. At the other end of the entropy scale, we are limited to "the heat death of the universe." Much later, matter will cease to exist (assuming Hawking radiation). Thus, we live in a universe with a limited lifespan. It had a beginning and will have an end.
Even if materialism is proven false, one can still believe that physical science is the only means for obtaining the truth. That view can be challenged (and refuted, I believe).
Many eminent physicists and cosmologists are struggling with this concept and have accomplished amazing mental gymnastics to try to rescue deterministic materialism. It's not working. For example, Dr. Sabine Hossenfelder reluctantly admits that true random events occur, but she tries to quarantines these to subatomic quantum scales, but this is still a hairline crack in her otherwise deterministic world. And as I mentioned, at least Lee Smolin is honest enough to state his materialism as his paradigm up front. -QQuerius
March 26, 2022
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BA
Shoot, I have repeatedly argued, via advances in quantum biology, for the reality of a transcendent soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our ‘material/temporal’ bodies.
I apologize - I was just giving my best guess. Your view is similar to mine. But it's a lot different than WJM's. He is saying "there is no material, external reality". For him, "everything is mind" (as I understand his view). For him, material reality does not exist. This would conflict with Christian theism, as you pointed out. God created the material world. True, it is not at the foundation of all reality, but we do have real bodies - and this is what the resurrection is intended to show.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Thanks, VL. I apologize for jumping on another topic - I intended to move on with essential matters this Saturday afternoon, but I got started on a quick reply and then it was no longer quick ... Ok, here's a thought to start with: We have A=A and an agreement. You have presented it as "a true statement". I had said it was "a truth expression". What I meant was, it's not just a true statement like "Joseph Biden is president of the USA" or "Los Angeles is in California". Those are true statements, but A=A is a foundational statement. In fact, it's "the statement that enables us to understand the truth". It's the first principle and starting point. Even LNC or LEM cannot function without LOI. So, A=A is a key that opens up questions of truth for us. We have both agreed. Yes, A=A. Plus, there are no exceptions. We could call A=A an absolute truth. It's true in every situation. As such it is a "necessary truth". A=A is necessary for anything else to be true. The question is, do we choose this or is it given or both? We agreed it is inherent in us - it's given as human nature. We are rational and we accept A=A by instinct, so to speak. It is intuitive. However, do we also choose it? I will say yes. We make a commitment to it. The evidence for this is that a person could just say that they do not want to accept the LOI. Can they even make a positive statement without accepting A=A? No, they can't. Because A=A is required in order to say "I reject A=A". But the fact is, there is some hypothetical person who could say it, and what they mean is "I don't care if I am inconsistent or if what I say makes sense all the time." So, they use A=A sometimes, but not others.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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SA: "BA77: There is no material reality. All reality is the mind of God. We are just minds, not material bodies with minds." If you are going to attribute something to me, be accurate in what I hold. Whereas I do hold that all reality is based in God. I simply note that you, as a Christian Theist, hold the exact same thing. What I do NOT hold is that 'we are just minds'. I never said that, nor have I ever implied that. Shoot, I have repeatedly argued, via advances in quantum biology, for the reality of a transcendent soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our 'material/temporal' bodies. More specifically, I hold that our minds inhabit 'material' bodies. In which the 'material', i.e. atoms and particles, of our bodies, ultimately reduce to a 'information theoretic' base. Not to a materialistic base. All of this is perfectly consistent with experimental evidence from quantum mechanics, and quantum biology, as well as being consistent with Christian Theology I might add. Quotes and Verse:
“The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.” Vlatko Vedral – Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College 48:24 mark: “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” 49:45 mark: “In the Beginning was the Word” John 1:1 Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men.
bornagain77
March 26, 2022
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re 736: Thanks, SA. I know you've been involved in discussions with WJM, so I'm in no hurry. I like the careful step-by-step constructive conversation we've started, so I'll be available if/when you return to it.Viola Lee
March 26, 2022
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WJM
You can avoid that all you want, but in the end all you’re doing is being inconsistent if you expect others to accept logical truths that are inconvenient to them, but avoid logical truths that are inconvenient to you.
I observe other minds at work. I take in perspectives other than my own. So, I conclude there are other perspectives, other minds and a world outside of my own. If my perception is wrong about this, then how could I be capable of understanding what you have to say?Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Querius @728
Idealism The idealist philosopher George Berkeley argued that physical objects do not exist independently of the mind that perceives them. An item truly exists only as long as it is observed; otherwise, it is not only meaningless but simply nonexistent. Berkeley does attempt to show things can and do exist apart from the human mind and our perception, but only because there is an all-encompassing Mind in which all "ideas" are perceived – in other words, God, who observes all. Solipsism agrees that nothing exists outside of perception, but would argue that Berkeley falls prey to the egocentric predicament – he can only make his own observations, and thus cannot be truly sure that this God or other people exist to observe "reality". The solipsist would say it is better to disregard the unreliable observations of alleged other people and rely upon the immediate certainty of one's own perceptions.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
I think we circle around the issues presented on this. I see the philosophical problems, but that's only because I take a different philosophical starting point, and not because solipsism is necessarily a problem. I'm suggesting that this solipsistic view is what we've been discussing. Here are the views, as I see them. WJM: Idealism. There is nothing external to a person's mind. There is no material-reality. Querius: (not sure). There is no material reality. Nothing exists external to mind, but there is just God's mind and human minds. BA77: There is no material reality. All reality is the mind of God. We are just minds, not material bodies with minds. KF: Not sure, but I think he is a classical realist like myself. SA: Metaphysical realism. The material world exists and was created by God. Materialism is false. What "matter is" can be analyzed by QM but not completely understood by it (we cannot know its origins or completely how it is composed without knowing the mind of God). There is an external, material world. Our human intuitions are correct in that real things exist outside of us and they persist in time. They don't pop-in and out of existence just because someone is looking at them. We're not living in a delusion, the Matrix, a simulation or a hoax. There is no direct relationship between quantum physics and the fullness of reality. How matter, forms and substances hold together are known to God - but they are real composites, imperceptible to science but compatible with logic and reason. Humans are real, material bodies, with a mind and with a form (the soul). This is a unified composite, separated at death.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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WJM
I have repeatedly pointed to one you seem intent on defying, that there is no escape from personal perspective
You equate "personal perspective" with "mind". I pointed out that there are different ways of viewing that. In the idea of personhood, mind is not the totality of a person. In my view, a person is mind, body and soul. We can experience things via the soul, which is transcendent to mind.
Were you the guy that just stopped talking to me about the NDE evidence because you had no answer for NDEs that did not fit the Christian perspective? Was that you avoiding evidence? Maybe it was someone else.
It wasn't me. I don't have problems with NDEs as such, but I also respect anyone who argues from his religious or philosophical perspective. I try to take people from where they are. Why should science be held has having a higher truth-value than philosophy or religion? Science itself cannot give an answer to that question. It can only do what science does - and that is, evaluate the physical world. That's why ID says it cannot tell us about the nature of the designer. Because ID is limited to science.
You mean, you will use science when it supports your perspective, then turn around and ignore it if it does not.
No, I use it for what it is meant for - a study of the physical world. Some people think that science is the only pathway to truth. That's scientism - it's based on materialism, that material things are equivalent to reality. That's the point under consideration with ID. Is materialism true? We can go farther and ask "is scientism the correct method for understanding reality"? Even if materialism is proven false, one can still believe that physical science is the only means for obtaining the truth. That view can be challenged (and refuted, I believe).
Adding “soul” to it doesn’t change the inescapable, self-evidently true statement that there is no escape from personal perspective.
In spiritual terms, a person can "lose himself". So, I'd disagree that we cannot escape our personal perspective. God can communicate directly to the soul, as prophets have said. That's transcendent to personal perspective and to mind. It's God's perspective. God can make it personal, but a person can lose his self-awareness for the sake of something greater.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Viola Lee @ 726. That's a great reply, thank you. I appreciate your careful reading and good analysis. Yes, you're right - I skipped over some necessary connections so my summary did not follow from what we agreed upon. I'm glad you caught that. In order to progress in our agreements, we have to go back to A=A because I left some issues undone there. You raised 4 key points: 1. Concern about my statement "That's the rational process which is not just intuitive but we actually look for reasons". 2. How is "truth expression" different from "a true statement"? What further conclusions was I getting at with it? 3. Subjective vs objective with regards to A=A 4. Can we say "we aree oriented to the truth of things" based from our agreement so far on A=A, or do we need other arguments for that? 5. Can I show that we "seek true reasons for our thoughts" based on what we agreed-upon already? I thought I had the time for this today - sorry! I will return later. These are great issues to analyze.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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SA said:
You said it was impossible for there to be any evidence against your worldview. I pointed out that “it’s not impossible” and explained why.
There are logical impossibilities. A I have repeatedly pointed to one you seem intent on defying, that there is no escape from personal perspective, however you want to section it or label it. It can't be done. That is "my view," SA. I refer to that personal perspective as "consciousness" or "mind." Adding "soul" to it doesn't change the inescapable, self-evidently true statement that there is no escape from personal perspective. You can avoid that all you want, but in the end all you're doing is being inconsistent if you expect others to accept logical truths that are inconvenient to them, but avoid logical truths that are inconvenient to you. Were you the guy that just stopped talking to me about the NDE evidence because you had no answer for NDEs that did not fit the Christian perspective? Was that you avoiding evidence? Maybe it was someone else.
But if we want to talk about philosophy or religion, that requires a different criteria – beyond what science alone can show.
You mean, you will use science when it supports your perspective, then turn around and ignore it if it does not.William J Murray
March 26, 2022
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WJM Just quickly- I'll give a more complete answer later but just this for now ...
but if you’re going to enter into an argument about these things, you’re not going to get away with saying things like “It’s not impossible”
You said it was impossible for there to be any evidence against your worldview. I pointed out that "it's not impossible" and explained why. That was a necessary part of the argument. If we're talking about things that only God knows with certainty (that's different than talking about the results of scientific experiments) like how the entire world is structures, how it was created and the nature and limits of human consciousness (and how consciousness actually interacts with the world), then we have to be open to quite a lot of possibilities. I argue here on UD usually from a scientific, empirical-evidence-based perspective because that's the nature of this kind of argument. But if we want to talk about philosophy or religion, that requires a different criteria - beyond what science alone can show.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Here's the thing, SA: you and others are cherry-picking evidence and logic when it suits your ontological commitments. From my perspective, that's fine - there's nothing wrong with that. You and others here have openly said that you are fully committed to your ontologies. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, IMO. If you want to sort and accept or dismiss evidence or argument according to your ontology, have at it, but if you're going to enter into an argument about these things, you're not going to get away with saying things like "It's not impossible" as if that's a valid part any argument, or removing the inconvenient evidence (the quantum debunking of realism) from the table on the one hand, while using convenient evidence on the other (big bang.) Or, expect others to acquiesce to the logic on the one hand (your discussion with VL,) but refuse to do so on the other (the inescapable nature of personal experience.)William J Murray
March 26, 2022
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SA said:
Not true. I already proposed the power of the immortal human soul. Now, we have a conscious mind and a soul. Both can experience things. The evidence for this is that I can be aware of my consciousness. I can improve my awareness. I can be aware of being aware. From this, I can spiritually experience directly in the soul without need for the mind.
This doesn't change anything, SA. In fact, it's all still right there in what you wrote. Notice how you have to word what you write about how you experience your proposed two-element system of soul and mind: you said "I" every time. I experience this, I experience that. When we use the term "mind" or "consciousness," what that word refers to is the "I" that is doing all the experiencing, and all that experience occurs within the "I." Take away that "I" and there is no you to have any experience at all. All experience occurs within that "I," whatever you call it, however you slice it up, and there is no escaping it. You're trying to avoid self-evidently true statement that every experience the "I" has occurs entirely within that "I," regardless of how one tries to avoid it. That's the nature of personal experience, and the reason solipsism is considered an unarguable (even if undesirable) ontology.
Therefore, you cannot say that it’s impossible that God could be doing things that act contrary to what we assume from scientific experiments.
Of course, my arguments here do not extend beyond evidence and logic. Everyone is free to believe whatever they wish. "It's not impossible," however, is not an argument for anything. A neo-darwinist can say that life springing from semi-random mixtures of chemicals in a natural environment "is not impossible." When you have to resort to "it's not impossible," you've found where reason and evidence end and faith has taken over. That' not a bad thing, I'm just pointing it out. I have some beliefs that I cannot argue via evidence or logic, but the difference is that I don't try to.
From those facts, saying that Idealism is necessarily true because of testing from quantum mechanics is not correct. None of us knows how God is holding the universe together and how He created it.
Well, I'll grant you this: for all I know, there are things outside of my "i." How would I know? There's literally no way for me to know that, so it could be true. Perhaps all the scientists and evidence is just what's going on in my particular "I," but you can't have a reasonable discussion that way. What I'm saying is that for all functional intents and purposes, idealism is true. A world external of that makes no difference to the individual because the individual has no way to experience or verify an external world even if it did exist. There's no way out of the experiential prison of the "I."William J Murray
March 26, 2022
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VL, this is a case where language is telling us something: to form meaningful, coded signals and symbols, we have to recognise and use distinctions thus distinct identity. St Paul's C1 Rhetoric 101 exercise points out it is true for music, too: distinct notes to get and recognise a tune or a bugle call to arms. This reality-embeddedness opens up logic of being analysis, starting with how a distinct possible world W must have some A that marks it apart from any close neighbour say W'. From that, we can take up A is A i/l/o its core characteristics c0, c1, c2 . . . cn which must be mutually compatible if it is to be a possible entity. And so forth, including a big chunk of math that by this will have trans-world, universal validity. Which answers Wigner's wonder. Those are not mild, weak results, just the opposite. BTW, as has been drawn out several times already. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2022
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WJM
It is logically impossible for there to be any evidence against idealism in the first place. It can’t be done, because it is impossible for me to experience anything anywhere except in my consciousness/mind.
Not true. I already proposed the power of the immortal human soul. Now, we have a conscious mind and a soul. Both can experience things. The evidence for this is that I can be aware of my consciousness. I can improve my awareness. I can be aware of being aware. From this, I can spiritually experience directly in the soul without need for the mind. All of that is perfectly logical. We wouldn't say that software can repair itself. It needs an outside agency to evaluate the performance and fix it. You are taking a faith-based position regarding the human soul, and also regarding the mind as the sole means of experience. There is a lot of spiritual literature that argues against that view. We can directly experience things while the human mind (in its temporal existence) is not active. How the interface between mind and body work and how does our body affect our consciousness are other problems that idealism doesn't address. What do we experience after death, if anything? Do we have a mind after our body is dead? Or is it something else that gives us awareness? If something else, can we have the same non-mental awareness while in the body? Again, physics cannot show that idealism is true. It cannot make that kind of determination about reality because it is limited to a study of physical entities. If reality includes more than that, then physics can have nothing to say about it and philosophical realism, our common experience of an external reality, would be true - in spite of what physical experiments show. I think you agreed with that already but then said that such invisible entities add nothing to our knowledge. But again, that's like saying that God is unnecessary because we understand reality well-enough without need for God. You cannot declare with absolute certitude that God does not exist. No one can say that it's impossible that God exists - nobody has that kind of knowledge of reality. Therefore, you cannot say that it's impossible that God could be doing things that act contrary to what we assume from scientific experiments. From those facts, saying that Idealism is necessarily true because of testing from quantum mechanics is not correct. None of us knows how God is holding the universe together and how He created it.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2022
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SA said:
In some cases, as the example you gave, yes. But metaphysical realism is not an ontology that science can evaluate.).
It doesn't have to. Any form of realism (ERT) is pure speculation without any method or means, even in principle, that could evidence it
Your view requires faith as against such a mountain of evidence that even scientists do not conform to it (your comment on the Big Bang).
It is logically impossible for there to be any evidence against idealism in the first place. It can't be done, because it is impossible for me to experience anything anywhere except in my consciousness/mind. There is no way to even begin to evidence a world outside of mental experience. By any means, scientific or otherwise. My view doesn't require faith in anything other than what is self-evidently true and logically inescapable. And, this is what 100+ years of quantum physics has thus far demonstrated: realism is false. Idealism is true. These are the predictable results under ontological idealism: that we would not be able to locate reality outside of conscious experience (as in, identify innate qualities that exist independent of observation.)William J Murray
March 25, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @713,
The first problem I recognize is that physics cannot tell us “that there is no reality in terms of ontological realism”. Science is not equipped to do that kind of philosophical analysis. QM-Idealism is reductionist. Physicists make statements outside of their competence. Science cannot tell us that nothing exists but what is testable by physics. Saying that ontological realism does not exist assumes that everything is composed of particles and that quantum measurements correctly model all of reality. That’s radically over-stating what physics can tell us.
Yes, there are many examples of overreach both in physics such as super-determinism apologetics and new age pantheistic interpretations (I‘ve had a couple of weird conversations with an emeritus physics professor, a very smart guy, who gives new age lectures on the subject). Silver Asiatic @714,
It says something about the claim that there is “no external reality”. I proposed already some major problems with quotes from physicists “reality does not exist unless you’re observing it”. Nobody bothers going through all the absurd implications of that kind of statement.
Indeed, solipsism being one of them, the equivalent of a black hole in philosophy. William J Murray @725,
I’m guessing that if a physicist says that, what they mean is that what we normally thing of as “reality,” meaning things with characteristics that exist independently of the observer (particles, matter, objects, etc), doesn’t exist as such things unless there is an observer involved. IOW, photons, electrons, etc do not have independent existence as such, but rather exist as information in the form of potential/probabilities of how, where, and what the observer will observe.
Yes, exactly! What’s often ignored is that we have the illusion of a conscious free will for the precise reason that we do actually have a conscious free will. What we choose to measure is all important. Furthermore, the reductionism inherent in materialism ignores the reality of mathematical probability. For example, there’s no question that a spinning coin is real according to materialism, but the reality of an immaterial probability (50%) is not considered outside of a deterministic outcome. The experimental fact that mathematical probability waves can interact with each other becomes problematic as are conjugate pairs/variables with regards to information. So, when we encounter reductio ad absurdum results from our interpretations, it should provide an incentive to question our assumptions of reality, but many brilliant physicists refuse to go down certain roads. At least some of them, such as Lee Smolin, clearly state that assumption to begin with. -QQuerius
March 25, 2022
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WJM
It doesn’t require philosophical analysis for science to disprove (again, inasmuch as science disproves anything) a philosophical ontology.
In some cases, as the example you gave, yes. But metaphysical realism is not an ontology that science can evaluate.
As the video says, to continue to believe in ontological realism is a matter of faith in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
It requires faith to hold any philosophical view. Your view requires faith as against such a mountain of evidence that even scientists do not conform to it (your comment on the Big Bang). "Evidence" about reality does not come solely from physics. We have a common sense understanding and an intuitive understanding. After all, you've pointed to the quality of sensation we may have in our dreams as support for your view. That's highly subjective and faith-based and impossible for science to evaluate. Science cannot directly test and analyze my dreams.
Materialism is another ontology that can be, and has been, investigated by science, and disproved. That is how the entire ontological category of realism was disproved, as this video shows – once materialism was disproved, they tried to salvage some form of realism with further experimentation, but failed every time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM
Materialism is not the same as Realism. Materialism is not the same as Reality. There are several different versions of what realism is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism#Metaphysical_realism The physicists who see materialism defeated and then conclude that "reality is destroyed" were materialists. Their ontology was wrong before and it remains wrong even though they correctly got rid of materialism. The world cannot be understood using physics alone. Life, for example, is not reducible to physics - quantum or otherwise.
Only if you hold that that intellectual form has it’s own innate characteristics independent of the mind of any individual observer, and those essential forms are what individual observers are interacting with at some level.
Yes, that's philosophical realism. There are intellectual forms (the human soul for example) created by God, independent of the mind. These can also be found at that sub-atomic level and are the background of reality that perdures over time and are what make material substances (substances are a composite with forms). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory
The problem with ERTs (ontological realisms) is that they cannot ever be evidenced, even in principle, for the simple fact that in order for an individual to experience anything, the potential for that experience must already reside within them. If it can be caused from the outside, it necessarily can be generated from the inside.
I don't follow this, but the fact that something cannot be "evidenced" (that is, scientifically measured I believe you're saying) does not mean it cannot or does not exist. Again, I mentioned the human soul which cannot be directly observed.
Realism is an entirely irrelevant perspective. An external world adds absolutely nothing to what the individual already has the capacity to experience within.
That's what atheists say about God. Substitute God for Realism or "external world" and you have the same thing. But the fact is, having an external, real, physical world adds quite a lot to human life. In the first place, it means that what we sense is actually something real. It also means we do not have to wonder where everything is coming from. It also means that my physical body is real, just exactly as I experience it. Those benefits for philosophical realism are strong.
It’s not that reality doesn’t exist, it’s just that it doesn’t exist where we thought, or occur how we thought under ontological realism.
I follow what you're saying and I can accept what you're trying to do. The physicist (more than one quoted on this thread I believe) says "reality has been destroyed" another says "reality doesn't exist unless you're looking at it" (so I don't exist unless you're looking at me?). You then say "No, what they meant was ..." -- and you give the direct opposite. They say reality doesn't exist, and you say "It’s not that reality doesn’t exist". Ok, I can understand. What they meant was "if you think materialism is equal to reality" then you're wrong. But that's not saying very much since we knew that without any need for QM. Saying "there is no external reality" assumes one has a comprehensive understanding of "everything that is real". But all they really can see are some experiments from physics. They do not see the work of God, as much as they may pretend to. Again, we are not reducible to physics. Human beings are much greater than that.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2022
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to SA, re 716 Good: I said, “Those [LOI and heart beats] are just facts of my nature: I don’t “choose” them because there is not an option to not choose them, and thus there is no commitment other than just my existence as a rational, living human being, and you agreed, saying, “The concept [LOI] is embedded in our human nature and why we would say that we are “rational beings” because everything we do comes from this source and we cannot consistently deny it. Then, I said, “the LOI begins as part of our subjective experience–it is part of how we think–but is quickly seen to apply to all people, so it becomes an objective fact in that the evidence for it is available to all”, and you replied,
The difference here is that as part of our subjective experience, we could say that we don’t need a reason to accept the LOI. It just happens. However, when it’s objective, we see the reasons why it is true. That’s the rational process which is not just intuitive but we actually look for reasons.
[Note: your last sentence here doesn’t make sense to me] I said earlier that the word objective has, I think, caused a lot of confusion in discussions here recently. I don’t think that the fact that it is an empirical, confirmable fact that people do in fact use the LOI tells us any more about the reason why that is true than my own experience of why I use the LOI: It is part of all of our natures, and from that commonality comes the objective fact that all of us agree, based on each of our own subjective, that it is essential to our reasoning. When I wrote, “First, the phrase “truth-expression” is not one I have seen before. Why not just say A=A is a true expression?”, you replied “The difference is just that it’s a foundation that enables us to distinguish truth from error. The statement “Error exists” does this.” I don’t see how “truth expression” and “true expression” say anything different. The LOI enables to distinguish one particular kind of error: I can’t say “a rose is not a rose” because that violates the truth that “a rose is a rose”. I’m not sure we can draw any further immediate conclusions. I think you want to draw some further conclusions, but we should discuss them once you offer them as a next step past agreeing on A=A I agree with all you say about identity and separation and boundaries. I don’t think there are any issues here as far as I am concerned You write, “Summarizing. We are rational beings, by human nature, who are oriented to the truth of things. We therefore seek true reasons for our thoughts. That which has an identity is bounded by what it is itself and what it is not. Reality has this two-part structure.” I think “oriented to the truth of things” is a broader statement than we have covered just by agreeing the LOI. All human beings use the LOI (and other fundamental laws of logic) to think. Whether all are “oriented to the truth of things” just because of this is not an immediate corollary, because the phrase “truth of things” covers so much, and there is much more to the search for truth than just using the laws of logic. So I think that sentence brings up much more than just the subject of the truth that the LOI and other laws of logic are embedded in the nature of our rationality. Likewise, I think “seek true reasons for our thoughts” is not quite correct. For one thing, as mentioned in a previous post about choice and commitment, I don’t think we “seek” to use the laws of logic: they are just there in our thinking process. Also, “the truth”, about whatever one might be discussing, involves much more than just using the laws of logic. So I think your summary goes beyond what we have established about the LOI (and other laws of logic).Viola Lee
March 25, 2022
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SA @723, I'm guessing that if a physicist says that, what they mean is that what we normally thing of as "reality," meaning things with characteristics that exist independently of the observer (particles, matter, objects, etc), doesn't exist as such things unless there is an observer involved. IOW, photons, electrons, etc do not have independent existence as such, but rather exist as information in the form of potential/probabilities of how, where, and what the observer will observe. This indicates that the what we call "reality" is not going on "out there," independent of the observer; but rather within the mind of the observer. It's not that reality doesn't exist, it's just that it doesn't exist where we thought, or occur how we thought under ontological realism.William J Murray
March 25, 2022
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SA said:
The first problem I recognize is that physics cannot tell us “that there is no reality in terms of ontological realism”. Science is not equipped to do that kind of philosophical analysis.
It doesn't require philosophical analysis for science to disprove (again, inasmuch as science disproves anything) a philosophical ontology. All it takes is an ontology that relies on a proposition that can be examined scientifically, like Empedocles and his four ultimate elements ontology. Materialism is another ontology that can be, and has been, investigated by science, and disproved. That is how the entire ontological category of realism was disproved, as this video shows - once materialism was disproved, they tried to salvage some form of realism with further experimentation, but failed every time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM
QM-Idealism is reductionist. Physicists make statements outside of their competence. Science cannot tell us that nothing exists but what is testable by physics.
I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.
Saying that ontological realism does not exist assumes that everything is composed of particles and that quantum measurements correctly model all of reality.
I'm guessing you said something you didn't mean to say here. Or you said it in too confusing a way for me to parse correctly. Ontological realism doesn't require particles to exist; what it requires is that things outside of conscious experience have their own innate characteristics, called either local or non-local realism. Local realism has long since been disproved, and further tests have disproved the testable theories that attempt to salvage realism via non-local versions. As the video says, to continue to believe in ontological realism is a matter of faith in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
So, the intellectual form is a foundation for realism.
Only if you hold that that intellectual form has it's own innate characteristics independent of the mind of any individual observer, and those essential forms are what individual observers are interacting with at some level. There's a serious logical problem with that, though, and in fact with every form of realism (which I have called "external reality theory" in the past, because that is the key ingredient under realist ontologies.) The problem with ERTs (ontological realisms) is that they cannot ever be evidenced, even in principle, for the simple fact that in order for an individual to experience anything, the potential for that experience must already reside within them. If it can be caused from the outside, it necessarily can be generated from the inside. Realism is an entirely irrelevant perspective. An external world adds absolutely nothing to what the individual already has the capacity to experience within.
I proposed already some major problems with quotes from physicists “reality does not exist unless you’re observing it”. Nobody bothers going through all the absurd implications of that kind of statement.
You have to take the words in their proper context, and account for whom they are talking to in terms of how precise they feel they need to be with their wording. People seem to say all kinds of absurd things when taken out of context both textually and situationally.William J Murray
March 25, 2022
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Can you guys name one academic field that speaks in terms consistent with the idea that "reality doesn't exist unless you're looking at it" or as if "there is no external reality"? Archeology? Biology? Medicine? Sociology? Political Science? Engineering? Religion? History? The philosophers I follow argue directly against the idea. It's not that they're unaware of it.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2022
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William J Murray @708,
What I don’t understand is how the Big Bang Theory has survived in light of quantum physics research. They still talk about “matter” and “energy” as if they actually exist as things external of experience. It’s like cosmologists have walled quantum physics research off and won’t go near it.
Excellent observation! It's as if they are blinded by their ideology. Incidentally, the same issue is present in philosophy, which has largely ignored the implications of QM for almost 100 years! -QQuerius
March 25, 2022
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William J Murray @707,
The reason I don’t worry about simulation theory is because it either begs the question (simulations all the way up?) or puts knowledge of actual reality out of reach. I’m not sure what value simulation theory would provide me.
Yes, you’re right at least in part. A number of physicists believe there’s enough evidence to accept the likelihood that we’re in a simulation (aka holographic universe). They’re not necessarily theists or deists, but are simply considering the evidence. However, their conclusions are generally logical but not compelling in of themselves. These conclusions (aka interpretations) include some deeper form of reality, or a type of pantheism, or belief in simulations “all the way up” within a trans-dimensional infinite time dimension, or perhaps the Judeo-Christian God, etc.
MRT provides me with great value in terms of enjoyment and functionality.
Yes, I think an argument from pragmatism is certainly valid. I use the same argument as one (1) pillar of my Judeo-Christian faith (I have several others). -QQuerius
March 25, 2022
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KF
then we can apply it to being and raise the weak, inquiry form principle of sufficient reason, that we may ask why A is, or is not or is impossible, hoping for a reasonable answer
Yes, we have a standard now for evaluating what is possible and what is necessary.
From that we get to a surprising amount of cosmology and insight into causality etc. especially once we use the possible worlds approach.
True, we can put some pieces together from that.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2022
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I am God Next --Ramram
March 25, 2022
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VL, again, see the just above. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2022
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SA,
We left off with the agreement on A=A. (Querius was quoting from a long time back before we had agreed – yes, we fully agree now). Additionally, we accepted that Identity requires some means of boundary on A, some defining factor. So, A is separated. I used the example of a box of blue marbles. If there was one green marble in the box, I could ask for the green marble. It’s separated from the whole by its unique color. However, if all marbles were blue, I could not ask for “the blue marble” since none of them could be distinguished in that way. This is what A=A means.
Hence, the import that A is itself i/l/o its core characteristics. Which must be coherent in any possible being. Of course, from this we go to the close corollaries, LNC and LEM, thence the rest of core logic, then we can apply it to being and raise the weak, inquiry form principle of sufficient reason, that we may ask why A is, or is not or is impossible, hoping for a reasonable answer. From that we get to a surprising amount of cosmology and insight into causality etc. especially once we use the possible worlds approach. As well, once exploration of being addresses logic of structure and quantity, we come to core mathematics, and to why it is so universally powerful, because without active cause. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2022
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VL
Those are just facts of my nature: I don’t “choose” them because there is not an option to not choose them, and thus there is no commitment other than just my existence as a rational, living human being.
Ok, that is even stronger than what I proposed and that's good because I agree. The concept is embedded in our human nature and why we would say that we are "rational beings" because everything we do comes from this source and we cannot consistently deny it. But I want to say also, So, we're consistent. The reason I drew this out in such a lengthy way is that people will deny almost every point I made - believe it or not - and I've had arguments that have never gotten this far in agreement. So thank you!
the LOI begins as part of our subjective experience–it is part of how we think–but is quickly seen to apply to all people, so it becomes an objective fact in that the evidence for it is available to all
The difference here is that as part of our subjective experience, we could say that we don't need a reason to accept the LOI. It just happens. However, when it's objective, we see the reasons why it is true. That's the rational process which is not just intuitive but we actually look for reasons.
First, the phrase “truth-expression” is not one I have seen before. Why not just say A=A is a true expression?
The difference is just that it's a foundation that enables us to distinguish truth from error. The statement "Error exists" does this. The next steps look at the separation the LOI contains to create identity. The boundary, by nature, creates that which belongs to the identity and that which does not. A=A can only be true if that which is "not A" is excluded from the equation. There exists, therefore "not A". In fact, we could say that "not A" actively creates the boundary the way rocks, for example, create the edges of a river flowing. The water itself does not limit itself but what is outside of it is the limit. In this case also, there's a Relationship between A and not A. There is a "composition" of the two. I introduced the term "outside", but that's just part of what an identity means. There's inside (within A) and outside (not A). Summarizing. We are rational beings, by human nature, who are oriented to the truth of things. We therefore seek true reasons for our thoughts. That which has an identity is bounded by what it is itself and what it is not. Reality has this two-part structure.Silver Asiatic
March 25, 2022
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Thanks, SA. For the most part, your six points are all different ways of saying, in my words, that the LOI is an inescapable, fundamental aspect of the way our cognitive, rational processes work. “A rose is a rose” is something no rational person will deny. The fact that we have formalized this in our understanding as a law of logic in words and symbols goes back a couple of thousands years, but all people, before that time and/or unaware of the formalizations, have this understanding embedded in how their rational minds work. However, your points bring up some new terms and ideas that are not so clearcut (just as my paragraph probably does). I’ll comment on a view of them, but I don’t want my comments to distract from where we’re going. “1. It’s not a subjective opinion. Neither of us invented this point. It’s something we accept.” I think the words “subjective” and “objective” have caused a lot of confusion here, and have had multiple meanings. I would say that each of us, as we become a rational person, discover within ourself that it is part of our rational nature: it’s just a given of our rational experience. Later we have the formalization explained to us, and we assent and accept that yes, it is true that the LOI is a fundamental part of how we think. Furthermore, we believe that all other people are likewise rational with the LOI as fundamental to their thinking also, so the LOI is a general truth about how all people think. I hesitate to do this because of problems with these words, but I would say that the LOI begins as part of our subjective experience–it is part of how we think–but is quickly seen to apply to all people, so it becomes an objective fact in that the evidence for it is available to all. “2. It’s not strictly a faith-based proposal. As we said, there are some assumptions needed, but this is not a religious teaching.” Absolutely. Has nothing to do with religion. “3. We could say that we made a choice to accept A=A. However, it is simply not possible for us to reject this idea. We could try to reject it, so that means we freely choose it for various reasons. But no matter how hard we try to reject A=A, it is impossible to do that and also remain consistent to the truth.” No, I don’t think it is a choice. It’s as much an embedded inescapable part of our thinking as, you might say, our heart beating is to our body. It just is: a core of our ability to think logically and rationally “4. Now that we agree on A=A, we have a “shared truth”. We have both said, there are no exceptions to this idea, so our shared understanding cannot change.” Agreed, although introducing the idea of “truth” can open connotative difficulties. But I agree there are no exceptions, and that our shared understanding about this (both yours and mine, and humankind’s in general) cannot change “5. A=A is a truth-expression. We both agree that the formula is true. What happens next, however, means that we use this LOI (applying to LEM and LNC) in ways that make sense because we both have made a commitment to the truth of things, and we will be consistent with this.” First, the phrase “truth-expression” is not one I have seen before. Why not just say A=A is a true expression? Also, I don’t think it is correct to say I have made a “commitment” to the truth of things, any more than I think this is a choice. I’ll repeat what I said at 3: using the LOI is no more a “committment” to the truth f things than having my heart beat is a “commitment” to staying alive. Those are just facts of my nature: I don’t “choose” them because there is not an option to not choose them, and thus there is no commitment other than just my existence as a rational, living human being. You write, “But in our case, all we’re saying is “I accept A=A not just for today because I feel like it, but because it’s actually true. I therefore won’t just change my mind later. There are no exceptions to this rule.” Yes, I agree. To summarize, here are the two things that I think are “actually true”: 1. My rational thinking abilities include using the LOI as a fundamental part of all rational thinking that I do. 2. All other rational human beings also use the LOI, and thus it is a core, fundamental part of whatever shared understandings we develop among ourselves. There may be some dangling ideas here, but my hope is that we can move on: what follows from this solid agreement about the LOI?Viola Lee
March 25, 2022
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