Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has anyone else noticed the blatant political flavor of many sciencey mags these days?

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Yes, it was always there but recently, as the editors become ever more self-righteous (= Us vs. the Unwashed), it has become more open and that sure isn’t an improvement. Two items noted in passing:

Big Climate:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is an important organization with a primary purpose to assess the scientific literature on climate in order to inform policy…

Regrettably, the IPCC WG2 has strayed far from its purpose to assess and evaluate the scientific literature, and has positioned itself much more as a cheerleader for emissions reductions and produced a report that supports such advocacy. The IPCC exhorts: “impacts will continue to increase if drastic cuts in greenhouse gas emissions are further delayed – affecting the lives of today’s children tomorrow and those of their children much more than ours … Any further delay in concerted global action will miss a brief and rapidly closing window to secure a liveable future.”

The focus on emissions reductions is a major new orientation for WG2, which previously was focused exclusively on impacts, adaptation and vulnerability. The new focus on mitigation is explicit, with the IPCC WG2 noting (1-31) that its focus “expands significantly from previous reports” and now includes “the benefits of climate change mitigation and emissions reductions.” This new emphasis on mitigation colors the entire report, which in places reads as if adaptation is secondary to mitigation or even impossible. The IPCC oddly presents non-sequiturs tethering adaptation to mitigation, “Successful adaptation requires urgent, more ambitious and accelerated action and, at the same time, rapid and deep cuts in greenhouse gas emissions.”

Roger Pielke, Jr., “A Rapidly Closing Window to Secure a Liveable Future” at The Honest Broker Newsletter/Substack (March 2, 2022)

The relentless drum-banging will probably have the opposite effect of the one desired, especially when (as is sure to happen) some emission reduction strategies do much more harm than good and the boosters are running for cover, misrepresenting those outcomes in the name of “Trust the Science.”

And then there are the ridiculous efforts in popular science media to snuff out any awareness of the possibility that the virus that causes COVID-19 escaped from the Wuhan lab doing research on making viruses more powerful. How awful of any of us to suggest such a thing! Here’s an intro to a podcast on the topic:

We have featured the work of science writer Matt Ridley on several occasions over the years. Now he is the author (with Alina Chan) of the new book Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19. Brendan O’Neill has recorded a podcast with Ridley to discuss how the Covid-19 virus might have leaked from a lab in Wuhan and how scientists tried to suppress the lab-leak origin theory. Spiked has posted the podcast here. I have embedded it below.

The New York Times continues to flog the alleged natural origin of the plague. Most recently, the Times has promoted “new research” pointing to the live animal market in Wuhan as the origin: “Analyzing a wide range of data, including virus genes, maps of market stalls and the social media activity of early Covid-19 patients across Wuhan, the scientists concluded that the coronavirus was very likely present in live mammals sold at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in late 2019 and suggested that the virus spilled over into people working or shopping there on two separate occasions.” However, “some gaps” in the evidence still remain. “The new [unpublished] papers did not, for example, identify an animal at the market that spread the virus to humans.”

Scott Johnson, “The case for the lab-leak theory” at Powerline Blog (March 4, 2022)

More re Viral

Science writer Matt Ridley thinks science is reverting to a cult. Maybe his next book should be about that.

Comments
VL Thank you for thoughtful and excellent responses. Again, I appreciate your careful reading and for providing a hard analysis on each step. If we're fully agreed to this point, then there are some ideas that I brought out subtly and we'll need agreement on those. You've helped me clarify my terminology also, and that's been appreciated. If you notice if I skip over any of your corrections, it's only that I'll try to adjust what I'm saying. But what I mean by that is "you're right". Then I'll come back with a different formulation.
I’ll agree that all people are searching for the truth to some extent about at least some things. Again, given that we agree about the use of logic in our search, I think this search is where our conversation should go next.
This is great. Yes. So, we search for the truth, at least in the smallest matters of our daily thoughts and decisions - even if we're lying, we're making truth statements to justify it or explain to ourselves. In every case, we're using LOI - so in that sense, we're oriented to truth. It's inbuilt in us because of our rational nature. At our core is a movement towards truth. Then we said that we validate the truth through an alignment with reality. Yes, as you point out, we are not always successful in sorting out the full truth of things. Other things, beyond logic, are necessary for our best understanding. But at least with LOI, that's a foundation that stands on its own. When we align truth with reality, we're taking the statement and trying to see if "it matches what is real". Finally, we would generally say (there could be rare exceptions) that we value the truth as a good thing. It's the goal of our search. We will think that a lie or a deception is a bad thing. We may choose an illusion for various reasons, but even though we don't like it, the truth will always have a higher value because it aligns with what is real. So the truth will match "what is" or being. One thing we can conclude (if you agree) is that we have a two-fold nature of reality at this point. We have truth (A=A) and non truth (the denial of that). As we said, there's a boundary of identity. What the boundary contains is the identity. But in every case, we cannot have an identity unless we have a "non-identity". Maybe in a geometric sense, we have the area within the boundary and we necessarily must have that which is not within. We could call it inside and outside. This gives us a two-fold reality. What this does is refutes certain (not all) kinds of Monism, such as that of Parmenides or Melissus. This would be strict monism where "All is one". But it is also a problem for other kinds of monism because once we have an entity existent. Once we have "a being" - or in other words, once we establish A=A, then we have the boundary and we have the "non-A" as part of the worldview. If "everything is One" (in the strict sense) then we couldn't make the distinctions. We also couldn't have rationality, truly, because reasoning (our search for the truth) requires us to compare "what is real" (the good-truth) with what is "not real" (not true or false or error or illusion). So, our reasoning makes this comparison in a two-fold reality. Thus, we can conclude at least that some forms of monism cannot be true. If "all is one" then we couldn't make distinctions. If everything was "matter" for example (and I know you do not believe that), then we couldn't know what matter is since there is no "non-matter" to compare it to. All proposals would be true - and we couldn't even have A=A since there would be no way to put a boundary around "everything" (since there would have to be a non-everything outside of matter). So, we have in this sense, the inside and outside.Silver Asiatic
March 28, 2022
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SA @766, WJM said:
IOW, if I entirely shut off your consciousness, can you still have an experience?
SA relied:
I would define consciousness as having clear, mental awareness. </b “Was he aware of what he was doing?” This indicates that we can experience things that we are not conscious or aware of at the time (reflecting back we can realize it).
SA, I'm going to put this in terms of your discussion with VL about the Law of Identity. In your response to me, you said:
As I said before, my concern is a reductionist approach that would equate all of human life with “mind” or the idea that “there is no reality unless you’re looking at it”.
Two things here:: the LOI is reductionist in that it requires you reduce anything you are talking about in terms of that which give it its proper identity that distinguishes A from not-A. Second, you're avoiding a logical argument because you don't like the potential consequences. Is that an acceptable application of what you call your "duty to truth?" What is it that gives you your distinct self-identity? Being unconscious, or semi-conscious, hyper-conscious or in an altered state of consciousness are all states of consciousness. The distinction we must apply here in order to properly identify what we are talking about is A (consciousness) vs not-A (non-consciousness.) Kinds of A (unconscious, semi-conscious, etc.) are all within, or aspects, of A. Only "non-consciousness" is clearly not-A. There is either the experience of some state of consciousness, or there is no consciousness present at all. But, you claim that "experience" and "consciousness" are not equivalent terms. Let's examine that claim logically. Let's say I shut "you" out of ever experiencing anything forever, removing "you" from ever experiencing anything, including any state of self-aware consciousness whatsoever, because your claim is that experience and consciousness are not equivalent.. Do "you" still exist? If so, please tell me how what we are identifying as "you" persists if I shut off all forms of your conscious experience forever. If not "conscious experience," either in mind, in soul, or as some kind of combination, what exactly are you identifying as "you?" Can you tell me what it means to be conscious, absent any and all experience forever?William J Murray
March 28, 2022
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SA, I’d like to remind us where we started this discussion, to set the stage for continuing on At 657, to WJM, you wrote, “The starting point for realist philosophy is A=A” I am a realist, not an idealist, and I can agree with that. At 659, you quoted me from a post above:
that the evidence (which, in respect especially to QM, is open to multiple, possibly untestable interpretations) points to a sentient transcendental being, with motivation and intention (as you mentioned earlier), and then to a all wise and benevolent being (as KF asserts) is a large number of leaps of faith embedded in a particular cultural theological tradition.
And you replied,
They’re not really big leaps if you follow each step carefully. In fact, the very logic you use to argue anything is the foundation for understanding. It’s not religious faith but rather inference to the most reasonable explanation.
At 660, I wrote,, “Of course A = A. How can that be something anyone disagrees about? That is a foundational concept in symbolic logic” But at 661, I quoted you as saying “They’re not really big leaps if you follow each step carefully” And I wrote, “And those steps are full of assumptions that do not follow from the experimental evidence.” So that is where we are now. I want to “follow each step carefully”. What step comes after establishing the things we have agreed about that I mentioned in post 771 directly above?Viola Lee
March 27, 2022
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Re 769, to SA It seems we agree that A=A is a core, innate part of all rational thinking, foundational to all logic. We also agree, I think, that the LOI depends on things having a specific identity, with boundaries of some sort, which set each thing apart from other things. It would be good if we could consider this established. Do you agree with the above two sentences. You responding to my three comments. Thanks. That kind of responsiveness helps makes conversations productive. I wrote, “1. There is more to showing the truth of something than logic. To show that “the door is locked” is true, you have to go and look at the door. Pure logic can’t answer the question.” You agreed with this. You wrote, “Agreed. We validate the truth of the statement by aligning it to reality. The truth is that correspondence to reality. If the door is actually locked, then it is true to say “the door is locked”.” Yes, we validate the truth by “aligning it to reality”. We agree on that, although we might disagree on how to go about that in some case. In fact, at 3 below when I wrote, “3. So searching for the truth, caring about searching for the truth, and even ascertaining what qualifies as the truth for different kinds of things, is a much broader topic than the innate existence of logic as part of our thinking.” You replied, “This is not where we’ve gone in the conversation so far.” Yes, and I think it is the next place for the conversation to go. I’m not sure there is any more we can say about the LOI, especially if we agree with my first two sentences of this post. You write, “But in any case, we cannot say “the door is locked and the door is not locked”. That’s why the LOI is the essential, objective, necessary first truth.” I agree, but I can’t imagine anyone ever actually saying “the door is locked and the door is not locked” in any serious discussion. I’ll agree that all people are searching for the truth to some extent about at least some things. Again, given that we agree about the use of logic in our search, I think this search is where our conversation should go next.Viola Lee
March 27, 2022
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Scamp @765,
-the continued and repeated use of the same (flawed) logic even after the flaws have been demonstrated.
Yes, thank you for that. And not only with logic, but also with the repetition of the fragmentary statistics, which are more harmful in the sense of "garbage-in-garbage-out" despite the application of reasonable logic on the flawed data. For example, I've been very reluctantly forced to assume that widely disseminated medical and dietary information coming from U.S. government sources has been corrupted for political and economic interests. Not all, but a significant amount. My personal skepticism began after experiencing a medical emergency in which necessitated my losing weight to save my life. I don't want to go into any additional personal detail, but after following the U.S. government medical and dietary guidelines, which had essentially no impact, I did my own research. I waded through a vast swamp of dietary quackery, reluctantly educated myself and, in partnership with my doctor, launched on a "you bet your life" regimen that resulted in my losing and keeping off more than 80 pounds of excess weight (I lost the last 40 pounds in seven months). My astonished doctor admits that I'm now healthy and within "normal" range in all blood tests and weight. Amazingly, my relatives are still skeptical, despite their inability to argue with the results. Imagine that! It's a sort of ideological blindness or cognitive dissonance. So, if my experience is true for U.S. government dietary and pharmaceutical recommendations, where does that leave us to conclude regarding political information and assurances? And where does that leave scientific research funded either directly by U.S. government agencies or by institutions receiving support from U.S. government agencies? Perhaps you can appreciate where I'm coming from. Oh, and I tried sharing what I discovered with several other medical professionals with whom I'd previously interacted and got zero response from them. Interesting, isn't it? -QQuerius
March 27, 2022
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VL Here's another approach:
When you are solving an algebra equation and want to add 5 to both sides of the equation, you write 5 = 5: that the law of identity in action.
So we can add two to both sides of the equation. So, on one said we have 7 On the other side we have (5+2) So, we have 7=(5+2) That's A=A Because there's a question: Why do you agree that A=A? For example, if I gave an example of LOI as: (AAA) = (AAA) You would agree that is correct, for a reason. On one side, you have 3 As and the same on the other. If I gave: (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) = (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) You would probably have to count the A's to see if there are the same number. What this means is you have to analyze the two sides. But even with one symbol "A" - you could say, that's a symbol with two vertical slanted lines and one horizontal. But they have to be a match. We go farther and this is still LOI at work. Just as where we said 7 = (5+2) since we added two to both sides, we did some analysis. This time it's a conditional: IF A = B Then A = B So, A can be anything we identify it as. LOI is just saying that a thing is its own identity. It is just preventing us from saying A is A and A is not A. That's what LOI prevents.
1. There is more to showing the truth of something than logic. To show that “the door is locked” is true, you have to go and look at the door. Pure logic can’t answer the question.
Agreed. We validate the truth of the statement by aligning it to reality. The truth is that correspondence to reality. If the door is actually locked, then it is true to say "the door is locked". But In any case, we cannot say "the door is locked and the door is not locked". That's why the LOI is the essential, objective, necessary first truth. We are oriented to the truth because that first necessary statement must be true.
All people (who we agree have to use the LOI and other basic logical tools in their thinking) vary in how much they care about searching for the truth. Some care a lot, some don’t care at all, some deliberately lie in order to meet any goals. Also, none of us care about searching for the truth about everything: there is too much to know.
Ok, yes and no. In terms of searching out truths that are beyond our ordinary knowledge, then yes - some care more, some care less. But I am saying, care or not - we all are searching for the truth of things. "I don't care about the truth". That's the liar's paradox. To make the affirmation, you're stating a truth. To make any expression at all, you're searching for the truth. "Why did I deliberately lie?" - we will have a truth-statement for that. We are oriented to the truth because we make positive affirmations and then give reasons for everything. We cannot make an affirmation to continually lie. "I don't know why I did it". That's not only an attempt for a truth statement, but it means I'm lacking knowledge, or I'm lying, or I was misinformed. These are all attempts at truth. Yes, a person can lie. But you answered this previously:
Any hypothetical person who declared they were choosing to not be logical in terms of A=A et al would just be being purposively provocative and trollish.
What this means is that the person is doing something that discredits their value. They're lying or being disruptive. We consider these "defects of character" - or we could just call it "bad behavior". It's not something to be praised. Thus, as I said: We correlate the truth with good, and lies, falsehoods or deceptions with what is bad.
3. So searching for the truth, caring about searching for the truth, and even ascertaining what qualifies as the truth for different kinds of things, is a much broader topic than the innate existence of logic as part of our thinking.
This is not where we've gone in the conversation so far. All I've said is that we start with a fundamental, necessary, irrefutable, absolute truth: The LOI. Using the LOI in itself means that we are searching for the truth. From our very first statement. We must search and make certain that we're using LOI - so we're oriented to the truth from our very first affirmations. Of course, there's more to human reason than merely saying: A=A Additionally, as I said, the truth is validated by correspondence with reality. We could also refer to that as an alignment with being, or "what is". Is the door really locked, in truth? We go and check. Yes, "in the reality I observe, it is locked". The statement corresponds "to what exists". If the door was not locked, then the statement "it is locked" would be false - because it corresponds "to what does not exist". It does not correspond to the reality we observed So, we are oriented to the truth beginning with the necessary truth LOI, recognizing that a true validation is good and a lie or deception is bad, and then actually validating by aligning the statement to reality or "what exists" (or being - what is).Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2022
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Ram, yet another tangent, and you know there are places where relevant panels of experts can take up your claims in detail. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2022
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Ram @759,
Jews are fighting back against the fake Christian highjacking of our scriptures.
Yes, I can see that you, as God (as you claimed in @719), would certainly take offense at non-Jews hijacking (yes, this is the correct spelling in English) your Jewish scriptures. But your challenge has nothing to do with your Intelligent Design, since ID takes no theological position of the actual source of that intelligent design, and that this forum is absolutely not the correct one for theological debate, even with you as God (@719) presiding. You, as God (@719), might appreciate my taking the time to understand the body of text written by the Hebrews that you chose as later copied and translated in the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Aramaic Peshitta, and "corrected" (their term ) by the Masoretes in the 6th to the 10th century CE, something in which I'm confident that I've only been able to scratch the surface of a study requiring more than a single lifetime! Not even to mention the B'rit Chadashah, also written by Jews before the second destruction of the Temple as foretold by the angel to a man with the Hebrew name of "My judge is God". -QQuerius
March 27, 2022
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WJM
IOW, if I entirely shut off your consciousness, can you still have an experience?
As you present it, no. I cannot be conscious and be non-conscious at the same time. I cannot have a conscious experience while I shut off my consciousness. But are experience and consciousness equivalent terms? You're certainly free to define them that way. But I see it differently. I would define consciousness as having clear, mental awareness. "Was he aware of what he was doing?" This indicates that we can experience things that we are not conscious or aware of at the time (reflecting back we can realize it). Consciousness can also be understood as having deliberation: "He made a conscious decision to do that". This means that we can make decisions "unconsciously", by just habit. So, I wouldn't equate "mind" with "person" - as you already discussed, and I don't think "experience" and "consciousness" are the same things. As I said before, my concern is a reductionist approach that would equate all of human life with "mind" or the idea that "there is no reality unless you're looking at it". I don't think science (quantum physics or otherwise) can tell us what life is, for example. Not only can life not be created in materialist-scientific experiments, but it cannot even be defined as to it's substance. We know chemical components but those do not bring us life. I don't see that experiments with particles and waves tell us what a human person (as I defined with mind, soul and body united) really is or how it is composed. I'll stress it again, I fully respect your views - you've done a serious analysis and have studied sources and have reached your conclusions that way. So, your view deserves respect. There are several versions of Idealism - some theistic, others not. Yours is a particular version. I think there are several different versions because there are a lot of problems that are not easily solved by any one idealist system.Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2022
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Querius@763, I agree with everything you have said here. I might add: -the continued and repeated use of the same (flawed) logic even after the flaws have been demonstrated.Scamp
March 27, 2022
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Q. is the poll mentioned in the video? Could you tell me about where. I'm not interested in watching a whole hour on simulation. And you exaggerrate considerably what I am asking you.Viola Lee
March 27, 2022
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Scamp @760,
Logic is an important tool but when used by people advocating for a preconceived viewpoint it is almost always mis-used. It is my experience that under this circumstance the logic used is often convoluted and based on assumptions that are not proven.
Yes, I agree. It's an easy trap for anyone to fall into, including myself, and the characteristics of such often include the following properties: - Hidden assumptions, parameters, and biases - A single data point or statistical value - Absence of consideration of any contrary evidence or viewpoint - Exaggeration of a conclusion to polarized extremes - Immediate visceral hostility against all open inquiry - Other stuff I've missed -QQuerius
March 27, 2022
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Viola Lee @755
Q. do you have a source for your claim that 60% of cosmologists believe we might be living in a simulation? Does someone make that claim in the video you linked to? If so, do they have a source?
Yes, and does my source have a source and do I have a full list of the physicists/cosmologists queried, and what is the background of each of them, and how they each came to that conclusion, and do any of them have and questionable beliefs that would discredit the entire poll, and what where the parameters of the poll, and was there a statistical reliability analysis performed on the results, and were the researchers conducting the poll qualified to conduct such a poll without hidden biases, and what were each of their qualifications, and were any of them involved in any controversial activities and non-conforming opinions that could then be used to justify throwing out the whole thing? That should keep Querius busy for a few years . . . But you couldn’t be bothered to watch the video containing the evidence and discussion. Ok, I get it. The poll was whether they thought there was at least a 50% chance that the universe is a simulation. -QQuerius
March 27, 2022
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SA said:
In the idea of personhood, mind is not the totality of --->a person<---- . In my view, a person is mind, body and soul; --->We<---- can experience things via the soul, which is transcendent to mind. ... In spiritual terms, --->a person<---- can “lose himself”. So, I’d disagree that we cannot escape our personal perspective. God can communicate directly to the soul, as prophets have said.
What do you mean by "we" or "a person?" If a person "loses himself,' there is no "a person" there to have an experience. I said that the term "mind" is a placeholder for personal experience - the totality of what "a person" experiences from any source, in any way. It is their personal perspective. If a person 'loses their self,' that person is not having an experience. That person is gone. Dividing "that person" up into different avenues of experience, like mind and soul, is like dividing up experience between sight and sound, or between touch and imagination. So what? If That person either has an experience or does not regardless of where the information is coming from or how it gets transformed into some kind of experience. How about we stop using the term mind and boil this down to a simpler term: consciousness. MRT is a theory of consciousness. Let me ask you a simple question: is it possible to have a non-conscious experience? IOW, if I entirely shut off your consciousness, can you still have an experience?William J Murray
March 27, 2022
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Logic is an important tool but when used by people advocating for a preconceived viewpoint it is almost always mis-used. It is my experience that under this circumstance the logic used is often convoluted and based on assumptions that are not proven.Scamp
March 27, 2022
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-synFaADaI&t=184s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-jlAHgJcD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIY-UDGwzQg Jews are fighting back against the fake Christian highjacking of our scriptures. --Ramram
March 27, 2022
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VL, Thanks for your comments. The "other side" are trying their best fight against the obvious. I've dealt with religionists of all kinds (I'm a deist) and they proffer arguments full of holes and cogdis that they don't seem to acknowledge at all. Whatever. Thanks VL. To the honest and unbiased truthseekers I would say, check your assumptions. Check the large holes in the swiss cheese any religio/philosophy. Of course, true emotionallyy-driven cultists will never dislodges themselves from their error, but the hope here is to give mental sustenance to all the real truth seekers, trying to figure out the dirty and dusty trails of life and the meaning thereof, for yourselves. Keep on keeping on. Now... KF's posts have always denied real Bible studies, but "news" (Denise) has always been pretty good and open minded. So I say, If anyone wants a Bible study, you got one. Here I am. The New Testament suffers from there huge problems: 1. False proof texting from the Hebrew Bible. (I'm a Hebrew scholar. Let talk!) 2. Contradictions among the gospels. And contradictions with Paul's letters. 3. Failed prophecies. I will be happy to take on any comers to discuss these issues. Thanks in advance. --Ramram
March 27, 2022
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re 756. I absolutely agree that, “You cannot do any reasoning at all unless you being with LOI." That is settled between us, I think. But to say, "The LOI is our search for truth" is an equivalence that doesn't make sense to me. Logic is a tool for searching for the truth, but the truth involves much more than logic. It seems like we are stuck on step one, which we agree on, but can’t move on. Please comment on these statements. 1. There is more to showing the truth of something than logic. To show that “the door is locked” is true, you have to go and look at the door. Pure logic can’t answer the question. 2. All people (who we agree have to use the LOI and other basic logical tools in their thinking) vary in how much they care about searching for the truth. Some care a lot, some don’t care at all, some deliberately lie in order to meet any goals. Also, none of us care about searching for the truth about everything: there is too much to know. 3. So searching for the truth, caring about searching for the truth, and even ascertaining what qualifies as the truth for different kinds of things, is a much broader topic than the innate existence of logic as part of our thinking.Viola Lee
March 27, 2022
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VL
When you are solving an algebra equation and want to add 5 to both sides of the equation, you write 5 = 5
1= 1. The person "I" is 1 or symbol SA for myself. A=A. I am Me. I could say I am not Me - so A does not equal A. But that's an untruth. We have to start with the LOI. In context, the symbol "SA" = "a person who doesn't care about whether the door is locked". This is the inviolable truth of LOI. A=A I cannot say "I am a person who does care and I am not that person". That violates LOI. I have to affirm LOI in order to make the affirmative statement. You cannot do any reasoning at all unless you being with LOI. Yes, you can try to deny it but you end up with an untruth. So, the use of LOI is required, necessary and an absolute truth that begins all of our affirmations. The LOI is our search for truth, inherent in all of our rational affirmations since all of them require identity. We are oriented to the truth because we begin all of our reasoning with this necessary truth: A=A and we proceed from that, linking truths to it. To clarify more, let's go back to our box of blue marbles. This time, there's one green marble. "This is a green marble". A=A We have an identity. Please give me "the green marble". We identified it A=A and we can get it. Same thing. "This is a person who does not care" A=A We identified the person.Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2022
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Q. do you have a source for your claim that 60% of cosmologists believe we might be living in a simulation? Does someone make that claim in the video you linked to? If so, do they have a source?Viola Lee
March 27, 2022
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Viola Lee, Ok, check this out . . . The Simulation Hypothesis Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pznWo8f020I -QQuerius
March 26, 2022
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re 752, to SA. Let me jump immediately to the end of your post, where you write,
“I don’t care whether the door is locked”. That’s LOI. “I do care that the door is locked”. That’s LOI. “I will find out if the door is locked.” or “I will not find out if the door is locked”. “I will ask the question.” “I won’t ask the question.” These are all searches for the truth because they’re truth-affirming statements. They’re all just LOI. This is how we live – we continually search for the truth.
SA, you don’t seem to really know what the LOI is and how it’s used. The LOI merely says the everything is itself, and (by the LNC) not another thing. When you are solving an algebra equation and want to add 5 to both sides of the equation, you write 5 = 5: that the law of identity in action. Also, as I explained above, the LNC and LEM can be defined in terms of the LOI and the ideas of negation, conjunction, and disjunction. You write, ““I don’t care whether the door is locked”. That’s LOI”, but that is not at all an example of the LOI, and I can’t think of any interpretation that would make it so. You seem to have made the LOI equivalent to a search for truth, and it’s not. It is a foundational axiom of logic, and logic is a tool for searching for the truth. It’s a tool for making sure the ways in which we string various propositions together are logically sound. But whether the propositions themselves are true goes way beyond logic. Accepting that the LOI is foundational does not immediately imply that someone is going to search for the truth well, or be committed to always searching for the truth, or even care very much about the truth of many things. You can be logical and very wrong, or deceptive, if you are reasoning with propositions which are in fact false or unfounded,Viola Lee
March 26, 2022
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VL To undertake any rational activities, which are the activities we undertake every day, all day – we are searching for the truth of things. We are oriented towards the truth due to our rational nature. Proof of this: We cannot state something like “I will always tell falsehoods.” We can say “I will always tell the truth”. But the previous statement is the Liar’s Paradox. So, we are oriented to the truth. I will explain more further down.
Being logical is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a statement to be true.
Something is true because it aligns with reality. Logic enables us to make that alignment. The LOI is a first principle that makes that alignment possible. So, using the LOI is a necessary act in the pursuit of truth, and the LOI is always true, it admits no exceptions (as we already agreed). We’re not talking about Logic in general, but just A=A. That’s “a truth expression”. As we agreed, it cannot be false. We must begin our rational thought with A=A. It's an absolute condition - an absolute truth that we must affirm. This orients us. We can deny various truths for various reasons, but our direction is in seeking what is true.
They are objective truths if that can be confirmed by common experience.
A=A is an absolute, objective truth. It can be confirmed by common experience. The nature of that formula is evident in reality and it is not a subjective opinion.
My heart is not compelled to beat,
You’re not making a free will decision to cause your heart to beat. By the fact that you are human and living and subject to the biological process – your heart is compelled to beat by biology and life.
That makes it seem like something else is causing my rationality to be something it isn’t, but my rationality and accompanying free will is a starting part that is what it is.
Your rationality is part of your human nature. You cannot freely choose to be a rational being. The LOI is a necessary part of all of your thoughts.
The door is either locked or not locked: that statement is a logical necessity. Caring whether the door is locked, and finding out if the door is locked, goes beyond logic.
“I don’t care whether the door is locked”. That’s LOI. “I do care that the door is locked”. That’s LOI. “I will find out if the door is locked.” or “I will not find out if the door is locked”. “I will ask the question.” “I won’t ask the question.” These are all searches for the truth because they’re truth-affirming statements. They’re all just LOI. This is how we live – we continually search for the truth. We are oriented to the truth because of our nature. An additional point you made is important also. If a person denied A=A, they would either be provocative or lying or trolling. All of these are imperfections or flaws. We could say they’re bad or negative outcomes. A person who is lying or trolling is not seeking the truth. In this sense, the Truth is aligned with the Good. I taught formal logic at a high school level, but I do not consider myself an expert in that particular topic. It's not necessary for the points I'm going through at this time.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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re 749, to SA. Sa, in your talking about money, I think you are confusing using logic with statements of fact, which involve more than logic. Lying isn’t illogical: it’s just untruthful. Suppose I know that A = it is true that the money belongs to person X. It would be illogical (against LOI et al) for X to say this is my money and it is not my money. But there is nothing illogical about Y saying “this is my money”. It’s not true (either because he is mistaken or lying) but it’s not an illogical statement. Searching for truth and using the logical principles in our rationality are not the same thing. One can be perfectly logical and very wrong and/or dishonest, because there is much more to truth than being logical. Being logical is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a statement to be true. One can be totally indifferent to truth and still be logical in everything they say. In regards, to the idea of objective truth: You write, “A=A is objective. You didn’t create that formula and I didn’t. In fact, no human created it.” Well, here we have to make the distinction I made in my former post. In fact a human did invent that formula. What we didn’t invent was the understandings about our rational nature which that formula describes. Each of us knows that saying “this is a rose and it is not a rose) is illogical, and from those experiences various people (Aristotle and Boole, to name a couple) have formalized A=A et al. You write, “That’s an “objective truth” because it exists external (as an object outside – objective) to us. We can all point to it, discuss it and analyze it, because it’s not a subjective idea.” I’ve mentioned a couple times that the word “objective” has been confusing because people are using it to mean different things. I thing it is appropriate to say that it is an objective fact that all (rationally normal) people think logically as described by the laws of logic. The evidence for that is available to all of us by observing people. But the fact that it is about commonly accessible experiences outside of me doesn’t mean the truth that all people use logic is itself outside me, or anyone. The fact doesn’t suddenly become something that exists somehow disconnected from the people who know that true fact, as some other kind of a thing than something that people know. An example. It is a true fact that there is a maple tree in my front yard. That is an objective fact. Assuming one know the appropriate facts (where my front yard is, and what a maple tree is) anyone can confirm that. Does that mean that “there is a maple tree in my front yard” now has someone external existence outside of the people who have confirmed it? I don’t think. Truths are inside people. They are objective truths if that can be confirmed by common experience. I think people are using “objective” to mean something else. This needs to be cleared up, or perhaps the subjective/objective distinction should be avoided. You write, “compelled to use this truth in all of our thoughts. Even if we rejected it, we still have to use it.” I continue to disagree with the idea of choosing, commitment and now compelled. My heart is not compelled to beat, and my mind is not compelled to be logical. That makes it seem like something else is causing my rationality to be something it isn’t, but my rationality and accompanying free will is a starting part that is what it is. I’ve said this a number of times. I think a confusion here is what I mentioned before. I think you are ascribing more to logic than it entails. Logic is a tool that one must, naturally use, but truth involves much more than logic, It involves facts about the world. You can lie to yourself, or to others, or just be wrong in your facts, without breaking the laws of logic. As I said above, logic is a necessary part of searching for truth, but one must exercise many other qualities other than just logic in one’s search, which can include not even caring to find truth You write, “ With that in mind, the LOI is the mechanism we have that enables us to discern what is true. We start with the LOI and accept it. That formula, A=A becomes the foundation of other truths.” The LOI is a mechanism that enables us to discern the truth, but it is not the mechanism. Many other qualities are exercised by people as they search for truth, You write, Do we “seek the truth”? ?I think we do even when we’re not conscious of that action. “Did I lock the door?” – we want a true answer to that question. “Did I spell that word correctly?” – we seek the truth. “What should I do today?” – in that case, we look for the best answer, depending. “ The door is either locked or not locked: that statement is a logical necessity. Caring whether the door is locked, and finding out if the door is locked, goes beyond logic. Logic is a necessity, but much more is also necessary in order to seek truth.Viola Lee
March 26, 2022
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SA, I just wrote a long post in reply to 742, and now see 749, which I haven't even read. So this is to 742 only. I'll look at 749 in a bit, although some of what you said may be covered in this post (and some not, I think.) to SA. Beware, long post. SA, you write at 742” A=A is a foundational statement. In fact, it’s “the statement that enables us to understand the truth”. It’s the first principle and starting point. Even LNC or LEM cannot function without LOI.” I agree, but I’d like to expand, stress a distinction that I’ve made before, and repeat a question I’ve asked you before. The three basic laws of logic are part of our rational nature. They describe the way any normal rational human being is going to think, irrespective of whether that person has ever had them explicitly described in words or symbols: they will be part of the thinking of an Amazonian native as much as with a person educated in formal logic. The formalization of logic began with Aristotle over 2000 years ago, and the symbolic formalization began with Boole about 200 years ago. Among other things, the LNC and the LEM can both be defined in terms of A=A and basic logical operations. The LNC says something cannot be both A and not A: that is, using ~ for not, ~(A AND ~A) is always true. The Amazonian native know that saying “this is a rose and it is not a rose” doesn’t make sense. Similarly, the LEM says that something is either A or it is not A: (A ORr ~ A) is true. That is, “this is either a rose or it is not a rose”. Formal logic, as developed by Boole, contains the basic ideas of conjunction (AND), disjunction (OR), negation, used above, as well as conditionals (if-then statements), and truth tables about various combinations of the ideas. So from now on, when we write A=A or LOI, I’m assuming we are also talking about these further aspects of formal logic. They are all part of our logical toolbox. (Note: I asked once before - what background do you have in formal logic as described above? Also, I’ll note that I taught all this in geometry class for many years, as geometry is epitome of a subject built on logical structure, using undefined terms, axioms, definitions, and step-by-step lines of logical reasoning where every statement had to be accompanied by its logical justification: the lovely two-column proof!) I belabor this a bit to make this point: the three laws of logic are all formalizations of understandings that all rational human beings have. The formal laws derive their existence from their being descriptions of how human beings think. We often make the mistake, I think, of saying that people “follow the laws of logic” when they think, but really the laws of logic, as abstract and symbolic expressions, follow the thinking of people, not the other way around. We have formalized basic components of our rational thinking, but people who have no knowledge of these formalizations still think logically in that what they think is consistent with the rules we have formalized. You then write, and I summarize, paraphrase, and comment in [ ] (let me know if you think this is accurate: 1. There are no exceptions to A=A. [I agree] 2. A=A is a “necessary truth”. It necessary for anything else to be true. [I agree that it is necessary that all true logical sets of propositions must follow the laws of logic (as I described above} to reach true conclusions] 3. You write “A=A is a key that opens up questions of truth for us.” [It is a necessity for reaching true conclusions. If that’s what you write, I agree.] 4. You write, “We could call A=A an absolute truth.” [If this means absolutely necessary, I agree. “Absolute” can have other connotations that go beyond what we have agreed to so far, but if you mean the equivalent of “necessary”, that I agree.] You then write, “The question is, do we choose this or is it given or both? We agreed it is inherent in us – it’s given as human nature. We are rational and we accept A=A by instinct, so to speak. It is intuitive. I don’t like the word “instinct”, which implies driven for forces beyond our reason and will, such as an instinctual fear of snakes. I don’t particularly like the word “intuitive” in this regard either, as that also implies tapping into something that is beyond or below reason. Logical thinking is part of our rational nature. We experience it subjectively, as part of our experience of own internal thinking and verbal articulation. It just is. Ascribing it to something other than reason itself, such as instinct or intuition, lessens it prominence as a core feature of rationality. You write, “However, do we also choose it? I will say yes. We make a commitment to it. The evidence for this is that a person could just say that they do not want to accept the LOI. ...”, and you go on to discuss some hypothetical person who could choose to not follow A=A. I disagree, and I’ve said I don’t think we choose or commit to be logical, any more (this is just an analogy, I know) than we choose to have our heart beat. Any hypothetical person who declared they were choosing to not be logical in terms of A=A et al would just be being purposively provocative and trollish.Viola Lee
March 26, 2022
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VL Continuing on these ideas:
“That’s the rational process which is not just intuitive but we actually look for reasons”.
We could say that the LOI is intuitive (part of our nature) as we agreed. This would mean that we exert no choice in using it. There's no option. However, we know we are capable of denying A=A for various reasons, in other words, we don't accept the truth (or we tell a lie about something). So, we have to make a commitment to A=A. It's not just that we automatically always accept that the identity of a thing is what it is. "That is my money". A=A. "Ok, it's yours" (accepted). Then later. "Why do you have my money?" "Because it was never yours". (A=A is denied). That means the rational process is not just intuitive (that we have to do it), but we have to make a commitment to being consistent. More importantly, we have to think about A=A and decide that it is right and once we do that, we can proceed.
Subjective vs objective with regards to A=A
KF touched on this previously. What we mean here is that a subjective view is entirely personal. It's a privately held idea. It lives within the person. It can be shared, but it comes from a person. "I like cats". That's a subjective view. Nobody would know that unless I told them, or maybe you could figure it out but you have to find that idea (it's a true statement) inside of my own life. A=A is objective. You didn't create that formula and I didn't. In fact, no human created it. That's an "objective truth" because it exists external (as an object outside - objective) to us. We can all point to it, discuss it and analyze it, because it's not a subjective idea. We could say, "I won't accept it unless I take it into my own mind and think about it" - and that could be true. So, it could be "subjective" in the sense that it's part of your thinking. But it's objective in its origin and reality - it's outside of you or me or anyone.
we are oriented to the truth of things
By our rational nature, we have within us - at least, this absolute truth that A=A. Beyond that, we are compelled to use this truth in all of our thoughts. Even if we rejected it, we still have to use it. But it's not just that we are oriented to LOI, but all of our thoughts and actions and words are directed to what is true. The proof of this is that we cannot consciously force ourselves to deny something that we know to be true. We cannot knowingly tell a lie to ourselves and believe it. We can unknowingly believe our own lie (and be corrected: "You're lying to yourself") but we can't say "ok, here's something false and I will convince myself it is true". In all our thoughts, we sort through things and accept what we think is true. If we want something that is false (and we do at times), we find reasons and pretend to ourselves it is true. We are always oriented to think the truth. A=A is just a part of that. We could deny it but we know it is just telling a lie and we resist that. With that in mind, the LOI is the mechanism we have that enables us to discern what is true. We start with the LOI and accept it. That formula, A=A becomes the foundation of other truths. Do we "seek the truth"? I think we do even when we're not conscious of that action. "Did I lock the door?" - we want a true answer to that question. "Did I spell that word correctly?" - we seek the truth. "What should I do today?" - in that case, we look for the best answer, depending. There may not be one truth of what I should do, but we sort through options and decide (using LOI, LEM and LNC and other ideas - not just those and not just logic).Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Q writes, "if it turns out to be true that we’re living in a simulation as about 60% of physicists/cosmologists supposedly believe." You've said this before. Can you provide a source?Viola Lee
March 26, 2022
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Querius Thanks for your informative replies.
Many eminent physicists and cosmologists are struggling with this concept and have accomplished amazing mental gymnastics to try to rescue deterministic materialism. It’s not working.
I think other scholars struggle with the concept but not to rescue deterministic materialism. I think classical Christian theism requires an external, material world that really exists and that human beings have real bodies that we can observe. Or let's put it this way, mental gymnastics are required in order to reconcile QM with any of our intuitive understandings.
I believe we are spirit beings connected to but transcendent to our physical bodies. I believe it and live it every day, but I can’t prove it outside my own experiential history and those of others. These beliefs are mostly* beyond the grasp of science but within the grasp of human historical documents and archaeology.
I think you can prove you have a body and that you can observe other material things. That's what we live every day.
The presumption of intelligent design is also pragmatic in that it advances science more efficiently than the presumption of random, purposeless, trial-and-error progress.
I think ID theory falls apart under solipsism or living in a simulation or even with idealism where everything is mind and there's no external reality. ID cannot work in a monist system. I also don't see ID as necessary in an idealist viewpoint. But a question for you ... You mentioned that solipsism was a black hole for philosophy. How do you see it that way?Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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WJM Just revisiting this ...
all you’re doing is being inconsistent if you expect others to accept logical truths that are inconvenient to them, but avoid logical truths that are inconvenient to you.
It's a good point, and I owe you an apology also. I was impulsive with my replies and didn't give enough time to think about your viewpoint. The fact is, I don't understand Idealism well-enough and I haven't learned enough about your own view to respond properly. So it comes across as disrespectful and inconsistent, as you rightly point out. You directed me to a lengthy document on idealism. I'd need to study that - and I need a lot more knowledge about how the science feeds that viewpoint. I only have a brief understanding of Berkeley, Kant, Decartes - and even less of 20th century Idealists. Bruce Gordon is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and he supports QM-based Idealism (there's a three-part series with him and Michael Egnor ... https://mindmatters.ai/podcast/ep131/ ) The point here is I respect the thought and work you've put into your philosophical views and I don't want to give a half-baked reply. You deserve better than that. I'll have to learn a lot more about the topic. i have a strong opposition to it for a number of reasons but I need to articulate those better and understand what idealism is proposing also.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2022
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Silver Asiatic @738, As Bornagain77 and others here, I believe that the Logos (translated as "word" or concept) holds all things in existence together. I believe we are spirit beings connected to but transcendent to our physical bodies. I believe it and live it every day, but I can't prove it outside my own experiential history and those of others. These beliefs are mostly* beyond the grasp of science but within the grasp of human historical documents and archaeology. * The reason that I wrote "mostly" is that there are a few well-documented scientific papers written on apparent miracles. Here's the title, authors, and introduction of one of them:
Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer Clarissa Romez (a), Kenn Freedman (b), David Zaritzkya (a), Joshua W. Brown (a, c) a Global Medical Research Institute, United States b Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Lubbock, TX, United States c Department of Psychological & Brain Sciences, Indiana University, 1101 E Tenth St, Bloomington, IN 47401, United States Introduction An 18-year-old female lost the majority of her central vision over the course of three months in 1959. Medical records from 1960 indicate visual acuities (VA) of less than 20/400 for both eyes corresponding to legal blindness. On fundus examination of the eye there were dense yellowish-white areas of atrophy in each fovea and the individual was diagnosed with juvenile macular degeneration (JMD). In 1971, another examination recorded her uncorrected VA as finger counting on the right and hand motion on the left. She was diagnosed with macular degeneration (MD) and declared legally blind. In 1972, having been blind for over 12 years, the individual reportedly regained her vision instantaneously after receiving proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP). Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement; including uncorrected VA of 20/100 in each eye in 1974 and corrected VAs of 20/30 to 20/40 were recorded from 2001 to 2017. To date, her eyesight has remained intact for forty-seven years.
The well-publicized experimental fact that we can collapse wavefunctions by observing/measuring them has profound implications. Quantum tunneling also should have a profound impact on our understanding of reality. Not only does it allow something as large as a virus to pass through an otherwise impenetrable barrier, limit miniaturization of computers, cause mutations in DNA, but is also the reason the fusion of hydrogen is possible, which causes the sun to shine. The astounding design complexity within living things, once thought to generate spontaneously and consist of undifferentiated "protoplasm" within cells, also conveys an impression of the intelligent origin of all existence and life. The presumption of intelligent design is also pragmatic in that it advances science more efficiently than the presumption of random, purposeless, trial-and-error progress. -QQuerius
March 26, 2022
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