Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has The Skeptical Zone Finally Earned its Name

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Perhaps.  Its founder is preaching materialist heresy.

In a post over at The Skeptical Zone Elizabeth Liddle joins the ranks of our opponents who are finally admiting that biological design inferences are not invalid in principle.  She writes:

Has Barry finally realised that those of us who oppose the ideas of Intelligent Design proponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of design?  That rather our opposition is based on the evidence and argument advanced, not on some principled (or unprincipled!) objection to the entire project?

EL, welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads.

There is more good news.  EL quoted me when I set forth the following objection ID proponents often get:  “All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology.”

EL writes:

Yes, indeed, Barry.  It is not a valid objection . . . There is nothing wrong with making a design inference in principle. We do it all the time, as IDists like to point out.  And there’s nothing wrong with making it in biology, at least in principle.  There is certainly nothing that violates the “principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology”

There is even more good news.  EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design:

The objection to ID by people like me . . .  is not that it is impossible that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent, nor that it would be necessarily impossible to discover that it was, nor even, I suggest, impossible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be (although that might make it trickier).

She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent:

If Barry means that we can only infer natural, not supernatural, design, he is absolutely correct

I have been saying biological ID infers merely “design” and not supernatural design for several years.  I am glad it has finally sunk it.

More good news.  EL quotes me again:  “You agree with us that it is the EVIDENCE that is important, and objections thrown up for the purpose of ruling that evidence out of court before it is even considered are invalid.”

And she agrees:

Yes, it is the EVIDENCE that is important,

Then she runs of the rails:

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer.  Sigh.  Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.

Then back to good news:

EL says she does not object to the broader ID project

. . . as stated in the UD FAQ:  In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

Wow.  Yes, that is EL folks.  Don’t believe me, follow the link and check it out yourself.

As I write this her post has gotten over 750 comments, some of which are very interesting.

The first one is EL’s own:

And that’s my point, really – that it’s perfectly possible to test ID hypotheses (small case id I guess) because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios.

ID opponent Glen Davidson joins the bandwagon and even adds an area of biological design that has received too little attention:

It is done in biology in fact as well as in principle. Genetic engineering can often be detected, and certainly would be searched for in the case of any biologic warfare. I wouldn’t particularly disagree with Allan Miller so long as there is no context, but, within known context, we can find telltale evidence of genetic tampering or of domestication.

Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:

REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?

A heaping helping of hypocrisy anyone?  🙂

Our old foe Kantian Naturalist agrees with EL!

I concur with the general sentiments expressed here.

EL even comes up with a not-half-bad definition of “intelligence” for the “I” in ID.

an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things

EL then writes:

I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis. That was one of the points I was making in the OP.

I am not quite sure how she squares that with what she wrote before (which seemed to imply that she believes the “D” in ID is always posited to be supernatural agent even though all ID proponents say otherwise):

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

KN makes an astute observation:

I also think, quite frankly, that Dembski and Behe are also methodological naturalists (on my suggestion of what that concept means), and this comes out in their refusal to identify the putative designer(s) with any deity or deities. ID is consistent with methodological naturalism — as well as consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

Comments
Box, VC, et al: Notice, how there is a strong tendency to ppull discussion away from the pivotal issue that life is founded on functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, and away from what the observational evidence and needle in haystack analysis tells us about the source of such FSCO/I? Notice the confident but observationally, evidentially unsupported implication that "natural selection writes code and linked organisation out of lucky noise"? Notice the assumption that we can spontaneously get mind from meat? What is this telling us about the nature of the issue we are addressing? KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2015
November
11
Nov
26
26
2015
01:07 AM
1
01
07
AM
PDT
Zach: SETI starts with the assumption that any transmission is by an organism (or proxy) that has evolved around a star as humans did, and has similar technical means as humans.
"Proxy"; see The Dominant Life Form in the Cosmos Is Probably Superintelligent Robots.
Zach: If and when such a signal is discovered, it will immediately be subjected to scrutiny concerning the how, what, when, where, why, and how. The original conclusion will be reevaluated in the light of these findings.
Sure, but let's be clear: follow-up questions regarding the designer, like "how, what, when, where and why" only come up AFTER it has been established that the signal is designed.
Eric Anderson: Trying to determine who the designer was may be an interesting follow-up question after design has been established, but it is not part of the design inference itself.
Box
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
OK. Start asking.
Does that mean that you agree that design has been detected? How do you propose we answer those questions seeing how vague and general our answers are when it comes to artifacts- artifacts that we are capable of reproducing? Obviously the design of living organisms and planetary systems is way above our capability. I am sure that once ID has the resources that are being squandered on evolutionism we will put our efforts into answering those questions that the design inference opens.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:11 PM
5
05
11
PM
PDT
OK my little pufferfish- how many generations and what genes were involved in the alleged evolution of the mammalian inner ear? How can we test the claim that changes in DNA can produce the types of transformations required? Your "reality" is nothing more than a bald assertion. cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
We don’t even ask about the designer until AFTER design is detected.
OK. Start asking.Daniel King
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PDT
Virgil Cain:
There isn’t any evidence that unguided evolution produced the mammalian inner ear. There isn’t any way to test the claim.
Reality:
The evolution of mammalian auditory ossicles is one of the most well-documented and important evolutionary events, demonstrating both numerous transitional forms as well as an excellent example of exaptation, the re-purposing of existing structures during evolution.
Daniel King
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:01 PM
5
05
01
PM
PDT
So you say you can detect designer without regard to the designer or the design process?
That is the only way to do it. We don't even ask about the designer until AFTER design is detected.
But all scientific claims are tentative, and the obvious entailments of your claim are the how, what, when, where, why, and how.
Yes, those come AFTER design is detected and the design and all relevant evidence is studied.
That you want reach your conclusion, then wipe your hands and go home shows a misunderstanding of the scientific method.
What a moronic thing to say. You have to be one ignorant punk, Lee.
Archaeology specifically studies human material culture.
they have to find and determine the presence of artifacts first. You must be proud to be an ignoramus. It is that process- design detection- that ID follows. Thankfully you are not an investigator.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
There is strong evidence that it does, for instance, the mammalian middle ear.
There isn't any evidence that unguided evolution produced the mammalian inner ear. There isn't any way to test the claim.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
EugeneS: Evolution needs a functional semiotic system to start with. Yes, and theories about planetary motion require planets. That doesn't mean we can't have theories of planetary motion absent an explanation for the origin of planets. See Newton 1687. EugeneS: Evolution does not invent new functions. There is strong evidence that it does, for instance, the mammalian middle ear.Zachriel
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT
Zachriel, To Jack Jones: "You ignored the point". Isn't it what you are doing all the time?! Evolution needs a functional semiotic system to start with. Evolution does not invent new functions. Co-optation to even start needs a functional system and a functional switch from function A to function B. How did they come into existence? Evolution cannot explain the generation of statistically significant amounts of functional information, which can only be explained by intentional design.EugeneS
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
Jack Jones: Archaeology is not a living thing. No. Archaeology is a field of study. Jack Jones: Humans are the ones doing the investigation Yes. Archaeology is the study of the material culture of humans, not of a disembodied intelligence. Jack Jones: SETI looks for signals of intelligence, it does require going into how the intelligence is meant to have originated. You ignored the point. They look for signals from star systems because humans evolved on a planet revolving around a star, and theories of planet formation and life formation indicates that's where you will find other life. http://www.seti.org/node/647Zachriel
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
@135 "Archaeology is the study of human material culture" Archaeology is not a living thing. "Humans are a biological species" Humans are the ones doing the investigation, The name of the field is Archaeology. "Natural processes are often a how" There is nothing natural about your faith of life originating spontaneously in nature. You are rejecting how nature is known to operate. "and undermines the claim of design." No, discovering how nature operates makes sense on design, your faith in dumb luck provides no basis that the universe has underlying laws that can be discovered or that your sensory apparatus comports with reality or that scientists should report their results honestly and accurately. The only person whose claims that are undermined is your own when you appeal to how nature operates, You are contradicting your own faith in dumb luck which provides no basis for talking about the nature of reality. "SETI starts with the assumption that any transmission is by an organism (or proxy) that has evolved around a star as humans did, and has similar technical means as humans. If and when such a signal is discovered, it will immediately be subjected to scrutiny concerning the how, what, when, where, why, and how. The original conclusion will be reevaluated in the light of these findings." No, SETI looks for signals of intelligence, it does require going into how the intelligence is meant to have originated.Jack Jones
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT
Mung:
New codes.
Absolutely! :)gpuccio
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
Jack Jones: I never heard that the field of Archaeology was a species of anything. Huh? Archaeology is the study of human material culture. Humans are a biological species. Jack Jones: But you have so much faith in dumb luck then it is a surprise that you do not choose that as an option. Natural processes are often a how, and undermines the claim of design. Knapped stones, for instance, can be difficult to determine whether they were manufactured or the result of natural forces. Jack Jones: No, SETI is looking for transmissions that indicate other intelligent life in the universe and how the intelligent life originated does not come into it. SETI is looking for electromagnetic emissions from other star systems, something humans emit from their own star system. They don't look in deep space or gas nebulae where complex organic life is not thought to have evolved. Understanding how star systems develop, and which are likely to harbor complex organisms such as humans, is an important part of the SETI program. Indeed, the whole concept is based on theories of how planets and organisms are thought to have formed.Zachriel
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
@12 "Archaeology specifically studies human material culture. Perhaps you’ve heard of them. They’re a peculiar species of ape on the third rock from the sun." That's a new one, I never heard that the field of Archaeology was a species of anything. Very strange indeed. "When a purported artifact is discovered, it is immediately subjected to scrutiny concerning the how, what, when, where, why, and how. The original conclusion will be reevaluated in the light of these findings." But you have so much faith in dumb luck then it is a surprise that you do not choose that as an option. "SETI starts with the assumption that any transmission is by "an organism (or proxy) that has evolved around a star" No, SETI is looking for transmissions that indicate other intelligent life in the universe and how the intelligent life originated does not come into it.Jack Jones
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
gpuccio:
My hypothesis, which I have expressed and defended a lot of times, is that in natural history we can find evidence of sudden appearance of complex functional information: new protein superfamilies, new body plans, new functional networks of regulation.
New codes. Code BiologyMung
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Eric Anderson: The next step in drawing a design inference is not testing “hypotheses about candidate agents.” Trying to determine who the designer was may be an interesting follow-up question after design has been established, but it is not part of the design inference itself. So you say you can detect designer without regard to the designer or the design process? That's fine. Wondeful, in fact. But all scientific claims are tentative, and the obvious entailments of your claim are the how, what, when, where, why, and how. That you want reach your conclusion, then wipe your hands and go home shows a misunderstanding of the scientific method. You build confidence in your conclusion through marshaling evidence by generating and testing many different implications of the initial finding. The lack of such evidence, the lack of even a minimal scientific curiosity, undermines that initial finding. Eric Anderson: Proposing various hypotheses about candidate agents is not how the design inference works in SETI, archaeology or any other area. Archaeology specifically studies human material culture. Perhaps you've heard of them. They're a peculiar species of ape on the third rock from the sun. When a purported artifact is discovered, it is immediately subjected to scrutiny concerning the how, what, when, where, why, and how. The original conclusion will be reevaluated in the light of these findings. SETI starts with the assumption that any transmission is by an organism (or proxy) that has evolved around a star as humans did, and has similar technical means as humans. If and when such a signal is discovered, it will immediately be subjected to scrutiny concerning the how, what, when, where, why, and how. The original conclusion will be reevaluated in the light of these findings. You can't separate the different lines of evidence. They are inextricably intertwined.Zachriel
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:33 AM
10
10
33
AM
PDT
Lizzie:
Not sure what position you think I hold with regard to a divine designer.
You don't even know what position you hold. But if it helps, you're an atheist.
As I’ve said, I don’t think it’s an issue that can be determined by scientific methodology.
Yes, and that makes your position vacuous. You have no principled means to distinguish between a natural designer and a supernatural designer. So all this talk that it somehow makes a difference to the testability of the design argument is just so much meaningless jabbering.Mung
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
Well, as Dembski himself points out, information is created when options are differentially eliminated.
Do you have a cite for this?Mung
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
Elizabeth @103: Elizabeth: Thank you for taking time to provide a fulsome reply. I’m heading on the road for Thanksgiving soon, but just a couple of quick points that jumped out at me:
For instance, if we considered that, for example, complex life had arisen on earth too suddenly for evolution to account for it, and postulated that it was seeded here by an intelligent agent, the next step would be to test hypotheses about candidate agents – what techniques they might have used, whether there was any corroborative evidence for their presence on earth, what tools they might have used and left behind, what marks of their handiwork.
With all due respect, I am afraid you are misunderstanding how a design inference works. First, it is not just a question of arising “too suddenly for evolution to account for it.” Yes in terms of competing historical explanations the negative case against traditional evolutionary claims is important. However, the positive side of design is looking at the artifact in question to see if it contains the kinds of characteristics that we associate with designed artifacts. The next step in drawing a design inference is not testing “hypotheses about candidate agents.” Trying to determine who the designer was may be an interesting follow-up question after design has been established, but it is not part of the design inference itself. Proposing various hypotheses about candidate agents is not how the design inference works in SETI, archaeology or any other area. Indeed, we learn something about the capabilities of a designer once we conclude design. Your approach is exactly backwards. (The one part of your paragraph that might be on track is the reference to “marks of their handiwork,” but only if you are referring to general design criteria. If you are talking about some kind of personalized mark, then no, that is not part of the design inference. Again, it is part of an interesting follow-up question about the identity of the designer.)
. . . without asking questions about the designer, one would be left with an untestable hypothesis.
Again, you are confused as to the flow of analysis. What exactly do you think is the untestable hypothesis? Whether (i) something was designed and whether (ii) that design matches up with particular characteristics of a proposed designer are two separate questions. Logically so and forever so. Please don’t conflate them.
Thirdly, I think that the complexity and optimisation of biological organisms is beyond any kind of designer that we could easily postulate.
This is a very strange statement. It essentially amounts to: “I can infer that an artifact that rises to the level of requiring X capabilities was designed. But if the artifact required X+Y capabilities, then we can’t infer design.” Again, you miss the flow of logic. If X+Y capabilities doesn’t require design, then X certainly doesn’t either. Continuing in a similar vein:
But were evidence to arise, say, of optimised solutions from one lineage being transferred to another (as we install cameras in phones), or of evidence of artefactual fabrication, or of the presence of designers on early earth, or possibly something I haven’t thought of that indicated that living things were designed, I might have to think again.
The real issue here and where the rubber meets the road is the following: Despite your statements of lip service toward the general validity of a design inference, you really are not talking about the design inference at all. What you are talking about is a collection of other anecdotal and circumstantial pieces of evidence that would allow us to conclude that designer was present. The whole point of the design inference is to determine whether design occurred in the absence of these other anecdotal and circumstantial bits of evidence. To be sure, some of those other pieces of evidence might exist, but they are not directly critical to the ability to detect design from the artifact itself.
But I do not share the conviction of ID proponents that life is too complex to have evolved – on the contrary, I think it is too complex to have been designed, and as it possesses the key attribute required for evolution, namely that rather than being fabricated by a designer, it reproduces itself then it seems the much more likely scenario is that it evolved.
Again, this is incredibly backwards logic. You are claiming that if we are justified in inferring design because an artifact contains certain indicia of design, the when the artifact contains even more indicia of design we cannot conclude design. Completely backwards. I should also add, that there is no observable evidence that an evolutionary process has the capabilities you are assigning to it. But that is another story. This confirms my understanding of what your position has been for years, namely that undirected natural processes are fully up to the task of creating life and biology as we know it. It is a strange position, given the almost universal lack of evidence to support that great creative capability, but I understand your view.
But the tl:dr answer is: No I don’t think an intentional designer designed life specifically, and I don’t know whether an intentional designer designed the universe. I don’t think it matters. I don’t think we can demonstrate the existence of a divine creator any more than I think we can demonstrate the non-existence of a divine creator.
I’m not sure where a “divine” term got introduced, as it isn’t part of ID. ----- Elizabeth, thank you again for taking time to clarify your position. The real disconnect here, as I have identified above, is that (despite statements to the contrary) you do not accept the design inference as a valid mode of inquiry as it is used in SETI, archaeology, forensics and as ID proponents have applied it to living organisms. That is itself unfortunate and strange, but it is helpful to see where the disconnect actually lies. I don’t know if this is the result of a misunderstanding of how a design inference works, or whether it is just a hyper-skeptical approach aimed at design in biology that has spilled over to a rejection of the design inference generally. In any event, thank you for clarifying your position.Eric Anderson
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
Bob O'H:
Mapou @ 87 – that was no lie. If you’re ignorant of modern stochastic search mechanisms, that’s fine.
Either it is stochastic or it isn't. "Modern" has nothing to do with it. RM+NS is stochastic. Is it modern?
The truth is that I’m currently running an analysis with over 1500 parameters (just looking at the speciation and extinction parameters, there are 6^1052 states), and it’ll work fine in finding the solution. Whilst this problem is large, it’s by no means the largest I’ve run, and other people run much larger ones. The reason these problems are not intractable is because there is structure in both the model and the data.
Not true. It is because it is not stochastic. You are cheating somewhere and lying about it. There is no getting around the combinatorial explosion if you are using a truly random search.Mapou
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PDT
Zachriel still choking on natural selection:
Actually, it’s a term-of-art, a jargon, a coined expression, a scientific terminology. It refers to the process that occurs when differing traits lead to differential reproductive success.
That is incorrect and demonstrates ignorance and deception. Natural selection requires the variation to be accidental.
That’s the who, what, when, where, why, and how.
And only a scientifically illiterate punk would think we have to know those before we can determine design exists.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT
Zachriel: You say: That’s the who, what, when, where, why, and how. At least the when, where, and how. Where did the energy come from? What was the mechanism by which the first humans was formed? The energy is an interesting part of the problem. Indeed, in some models it could not be necessary at all. Some models of the interaction between consciousness and brain, as you certainly know, imply the ability of conscious representations to interfere with quantum probability, without violating basic quantum principle, except in imparting informational and functional meaning to probability events which would otherwise be completely random. That process could be some form of Maxwell's demon mechanism which imparts order without requiring energy. Alternatively, some energy could be required, and it could be linked to the "mind" processes of non material, conscious beings (including us). Luckily, we can study those aspects in the future, if we assume, as I do, that the interaction between the biological designer and biological matter is similar to the interaction between our consciousness and our brains. So, we have a very testable model on which to work. I don't understand the question about humans. I suppose that human biological bodies have been designed in a way similar to the other biological entities. There is no special scientific problem there. I hope you are not trying to move the discussion to philosophical and specifically religious matters! :)gpuccio
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PDT
Elizabeth: Please, look at the Nature paper linked by News in the most recent post, and to my brief comment there. The role of non coding RNAs in regulating crucial epigenetic funtions has been predicted many times by us UDists, and is finding constant support in research papers. And the role of retrotransposons in designing genomic variations generating new functional non coding sequences is one of the main points in my personal model of biological design. Thist is, definitely, a very testable hypothesis.gpuccio
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
Phinehas: Natural selection is an oxymoron. Actually, it's a term-of-art, a jargon, a coined expression, a scientific terminology. It refers to the process that occurs when differing traits lead to differential reproductive success. bFast: Yet this is exactly what Larry Moran proposes — that natural selection is pretty much irrelevant. You've been corrected on this previously.
Larry Moran: Natural selection is an important mechanism of evolution. http://bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca/Evolution_by_Accident/Evolution_by_Accident.html
mike1962: Chance and necessity are not known to create coded information. Molecular replicators can store information about the structure of the replicator and also act as an enzyme. mike1962: OOL hypotheses are incomplete and unproven. Sure, but there is support for many facets of abiogenesis. mike1962: Intelligent agents (humans) are known to create coded information. Yes. mike1962: Therefore, coded information in the cell points towards artisan. Therefore, coded information in the cell points towards humans. Huh? Eric Anderson: So, yes, the designer in creating physical systems that exist in the real world is obliged to follow the rules of natural laws that allow that physical system to exist. That's a start. That means we can investigate the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Where did the energy come from? What was the mechanism by which the first humans was formed? Eric Anderson: However, that analysis is not germane to and is logically subsequent to the determination of design itself. No. The scientific evidence is intertwined. The hypothesis has testable entailments, which may add confidence to or undermine the original claim. Mung: Meanwhile, Marcello Barbieri describes life as artifact-making. According to biosemiosis, the informational characteristics of organisms evolved naturally. The paper you cite actually proposes a form abiogenesis. Marc LaClear: Wouldn’t design be the first step? Great! You're convinced that life is designed. Now scientifically test that claim by researching the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Let us know what you discover. Marc LaClear: How is the idea that genetic copying errors and selection built the bacterial flagellum testable? You can't take the data in isolation, and the flagellum is very ancient. We would expect that the flagellum was preceded by simpler structures, but it is easier to reconstruct more modern transitions. EugeneS: Evolution employs natural selection i.e. selection from among already existing functions. Natural selection cannot select for future function which is categorically different from mere sorting that routinely occurs in nature. That's right. So fins become legs become arms become wings. EugeneS: It is a well known limitation of stochastic search algorithms in general that they stagnate in local optima. Recombination avoids the problem of becoming locked on a local peak. EugeneS: It may well be that for your problems the landscape is amenable to stochastic search. But this is not so for biological organisms. The canonical example is the mammalian middle ear. How could it possibly evolve!? gpuccio: 2) To be able to interaction with biological matter so that functional information can be imprinted into it from the designer’s consciousness. That's the who, what, when, where, why, and how. At least the when, where, and how. Where did the energy come from? What was the mechanism by which the first humans was formed?
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. — Genesis 2:7
Zachriel
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
But I do not share the conviction of ID proponents that life is too complex to have evolved
ID doesn't say that.
on the contrary, I think it is too complex to have been designed, and as it possesses the key attribute required for evolution, namely that rather than being fabricated by a designer, it reproduces itself then it seems the much more likely scenario is that it evolved.
Unguided evolution, ie natural selection, drift and neutral changes, is impotent and cannot produce anything but disease and deformities. And biological reproduction is just another phenomena that your position cannot account for. That is the whole problem, Elizabeth. You poo-poo ID and yet you cannot offer anything that meets your standards as a replacement.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
I don’t think you get can test that hypothesis without then moving on to testing hypothesis about what intentions that designer might have had, what tools s/he might have used, what methods of manufacturer, what purpose s/he might have had in mind for his/her product.
Talk about being scientifically illiterate. You don't even ask those questions until AFTER you have determined that design exists. That is how it works with archaeology, forensics and SETI, so why should ID be different?
Because without a postulated designer with postulated set of intentions, or purposes, or fabrication methods, there isn’t much to test.
Of course there is. We can A) see if purely materialistic processes can produce it and B) see if it matches the design criteria.
Simply being unable to explain a pattern by any known non-intelligent, non-intentional process does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was responsible.
It is a start in that direction.
Our lack of a good model does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was involved.
Couple that with the evidence and we get a design inference for the OoL.
Science can only deal with predictive hypotheses,
Your position doesn't have any.Virgil Cain
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
Elizabeth: You say: ...hypotheses about, say, the methodology and/or purpose of the designer The methodology can well be guided variation. That's a clear hypothesis. It assumes that the consciousness of the designer can guide biological variation by some consciousness-matter interface, similar to the interface is our brains. The purpose can well be defined as a "local" purpose: to achieve some specific function. Hypotheses about more general plans of the designer are legitimate, but not necessary to infer design for a specific function. So, is specific proteins appears which form a specific biochemical network which is useful in a biological context, the achievement of that function is purpose enough to infer design, if complex information is necessary to achieve the function, and if that information is shown to have appeared and is beyond any reasonable non design explanation. Sure, the theory that something was designed by an intelligent intentional designer would be a first step, and might be strongly suggested by the data. It is. But to test that theory, you’d need to derive a testable hypothesis. That functional information in biological objects is complex enough to exclude non design explanations is a testable hypothesis. That tons of that kind of information appears rather suddenly in natural history is a testable hypothesis. That the functional space of proteins is so disconnected that the traditional explanation of "connections" enabling reasonable neo-darwinist paths between them can be falsified is a testable hypothesis. That epigenetic regulation networks are so complex and functional that new, unimaginable tons of functional information must be added to what we already know is a testable hypothesis. That OOL was rather sudden, and not a slow evolution from non existent primordial and never observed beings is a testable hypothesis. And so on, and so on. ID generates testable hypotheses as much as neo-darwinism. The two theories are still "the only games in town" to explain biological functional complexity. The two theories are mutually exclusive. And each new fact is in favor of one or the other (guess which? :) ) This is perfectly possible, provided you don’t postulate an omnipotent designer who could do anything – because a causal agent that could explain anything actually explains nothing. I perfectly agree. Only two things are required of the biological designer: 1) To have conscious representations of some kind of the functional complexity to be achieved. 2) To be able to interaction with biological matter so that functional information can be imprinted into it from the designer's consciousness. That is no more and no less than what is required for human design. That is well different from "being able to do anything", IOWs it is not omnipotence. There’s nothing in scientific methodology that stops divine hypotheses from being tested. Maybe. But that's not what we need to test in ID. Science can only deal with predictive hypotheses, because the methodology is entirely based on predictions. I don't exactly agree. I would say that science can only deal with explanations and/or predictions. You seem to really underestimate explanations. I can imagine why, but it is not a good motive.gpuccio
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
Elizabeth: Hi, how are you? Just a few comments on your last post (I have not followed the whole discussion). You say: Because without a postulated designer with postulated set of intentions, or purposes, or fabrication methods, there isn’t much to test. I don't think that is true. There is a lot to test, as I will try to show. You say: Simply being unable to explain a pattern by any known non-intelligent, non-intentional process does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was responsible. Again, that is a gross mistake about ID. The problem is not only that a "pattern" cannot be explained by "conventional" theories, but rather that it is a pattern which is specific of intentional, conscious, intelligent design. That is the whole point of complex functional information. The origin of life is an example – we don’t yet have a good model to explain the origin of life. Certainly true! Our lack of a good model does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was involved. Maybe it does not allow you to conclude that. It certainly allows me. Because life, even in its simplest known forms, implies tons of complex functional information. To make a positive design inference one would have to test a specific design hypothesis, which would involve hypotheses about, say, the methodology and/or purpose of the designer. Well, I have a specific design hypothesis, and others may have different specific design hypotheses. My hypothesis, which I have expressed and defended a lot of times, is that in natural history we can find evidence of sudden appearance of complex functional information: new protein superfamilies, new body plans, new functional networks of regulation. Each of them so complex that it screams design. And that such appearance is evidence of manipulation of biological variation by some purposeful intelligent designer. I must stop now, but I will get back soon.gpuccio
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
05:08 AM
5
05
08
AM
PDT
Hey, Mark! Good to see you! You wrote: "My dear Lizzie, “I think it would be possible, in principle, to test the hypothesis that life was intelligently designed by non-divine designers.” How about intelligently designed, period? Not sure why you would worry about the divinity or lack thereof of the designer before looking." Because without a postulated designer with postulated set of intentions, or purposes, or fabrication methods, there isn't much to test. Simply being unable to explain a pattern by any known non-intelligent, non-intentional process does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was responsible. The origin of life is an example - we don't yet have a good model to explain the origin of life. Our lack of a good model does not allow us to conclude that an intelligent designer was involved. To make a positive design inference one would have to test a specific design hypothesis, which would involve hypotheses about, say, the methodology and/or purpose of the designer.
Wouldn’t design be the first step? I think not wanting to support the “God answer” blinds people from looking at the evidence objectively.
No, I don't think this is true, though I appreciate that it is widely believed. Sure, the theory that something was designed by an intelligent intentional designer would be a first step, and might be strongly suggested by the data. But to test that theory, you'd need to derive a testable hypothesis. This is perfectly possible, provided you don't postulate an omnipotent designer who could do anything - because a causal agent that could explain anything actually explains nothing. But it could be a divine designer - as long as you had a testable prediction. There's nothing in scientific methodology that stops divine hypotheses from being tested. There have been a number of studies on the efficacy of intercessionary prayer for instance. But while you can test the hypothesis that intercessionary prayer is effective, you can't test the hypothesis that intercessionary prayer is answered but in ways that are unknowable and unmeasurable. Science can only deal with predictive hypotheses, because the methodology is entirely based on predictions. That's why the output is often "natural laws" - rules of thumb that enable us to predict Y if we know X.Elizabeth B Liddle
November 25, 2015
November
11
Nov
25
25
2015
04:40 AM
4
04
40
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 7

Leave a Reply