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Has The Skeptical Zone Finally Earned its Name

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Perhaps.  Its founder is preaching materialist heresy.

In a post over at The Skeptical Zone Elizabeth Liddle joins the ranks of our opponents who are finally admiting that biological design inferences are not invalid in principle.  She writes:

Has Barry finally realised that those of us who oppose the ideas of Intelligent Design proponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of design?  That rather our opposition is based on the evidence and argument advanced, not on some principled (or unprincipled!) objection to the entire project?

EL, welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads.

There is more good news.  EL quoted me when I set forth the following objection ID proponents often get:  “All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology.”

EL writes:

Yes, indeed, Barry.  It is not a valid objection . . . There is nothing wrong with making a design inference in principle. We do it all the time, as IDists like to point out.  And there’s nothing wrong with making it in biology, at least in principle.  There is certainly nothing that violates the “principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology”

There is even more good news.  EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design:

The objection to ID by people like me . . .  is not that it is impossible that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent, nor that it would be necessarily impossible to discover that it was, nor even, I suggest, impossible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be (although that might make it trickier).

She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent:

If Barry means that we can only infer natural, not supernatural, design, he is absolutely correct

I have been saying biological ID infers merely “design” and not supernatural design for several years.  I am glad it has finally sunk it.

More good news.  EL quotes me again:  “You agree with us that it is the EVIDENCE that is important, and objections thrown up for the purpose of ruling that evidence out of court before it is even considered are invalid.”

And she agrees:

Yes, it is the EVIDENCE that is important,

Then she runs of the rails:

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer.  Sigh.  Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.

Then back to good news:

EL says she does not object to the broader ID project

. . . as stated in the UD FAQ:  In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

Wow.  Yes, that is EL folks.  Don’t believe me, follow the link and check it out yourself.

As I write this her post has gotten over 750 comments, some of which are very interesting.

The first one is EL’s own:

And that’s my point, really – that it’s perfectly possible to test ID hypotheses (small case id I guess) because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios.

ID opponent Glen Davidson joins the bandwagon and even adds an area of biological design that has received too little attention:

It is done in biology in fact as well as in principle. Genetic engineering can often be detected, and certainly would be searched for in the case of any biologic warfare. I wouldn’t particularly disagree with Allan Miller so long as there is no context, but, within known context, we can find telltale evidence of genetic tampering or of domestication.

Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:

REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?

A heaping helping of hypocrisy anyone?  🙂

Our old foe Kantian Naturalist agrees with EL!

I concur with the general sentiments expressed here.

EL even comes up with a not-half-bad definition of “intelligence” for the “I” in ID.

an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things

EL then writes:

I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis. That was one of the points I was making in the OP.

I am not quite sure how she squares that with what she wrote before (which seemed to imply that she believes the “D” in ID is always posited to be supernatural agent even though all ID proponents say otherwise):

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

KN makes an astute observation:

I also think, quite frankly, that Dembski and Behe are also methodological naturalists (on my suggestion of what that concept means), and this comes out in their refusal to identify the putative designer(s) with any deity or deities. ID is consistent with methodological naturalism — as well as consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

Comments
Barry: "[Elizabeth] has not been saying that or anything like that all along." Can you cite anything I have ever said anywhere that implies that I think that it is not, in principle, possible to detect design in biology? I've frequently said that the arguments made in favour of the conclusion that biological organisms were designed by an external designer are flawed. My own view is that Darwinian processes are themselves an "intelligent system", although not one with foresight or intention, and that we correctly deduce that biological organisms are the result of a system with "the power and facility to choose between options" as Dembski defines intelligence. "Natural selection" is indeed a "natural" form of "selection" aka "choosing". So the question becomes: would it be possible to infer that an intentional intelligent agent designed a biological system? Yes, I think it would be, and have never thought otherwise, nor said anything that could be interpreted otherwise. My position regarding a putative intentional agent is that a hypothesis involving a putative intentional agent would have to posit some constraints on the agent's powers, or it could not be tested. Thus I do not consider it possible to test the hypothesis that life was intentionally designed by an omnipotent creator. It's an unfalsifiable, therefore untestable, hypothesis. But your OP is specifically NOT about divine designers. So yes, I think it would be possible, in principle, to test the hypothesis that life was intelligently designed by non-divine designers.Elizabeth B Liddle
November 24, 2015
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Bob O'H, It's time for you to retract your lie @75. Why do Darwinists lie so much? Why are you people so afraid of the truth?Mapou
November 24, 2015
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Zachriel, your statement fails. The question is not whether you can come up with a one-liner, bald-faced, unsupported claim. That is pedestrian and adds nothing to the discussion. The question is whether Elizabeth can come up with a reasoned, detailed, evidence-based explanation for why design is not detected in case A, as opposed to case B. The design inference is on the table. She has apparently agreed that the approach and methodology are reasonable. So let's apply them and see what happens. But anyway, that is for her, not you.Eric Anderson
November 24, 2015
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Zachriel:
There’s no scientific evidence of artifice or artisan,
How would you know? You have to be one of the dimmest people ever.Virgil Cain
November 24, 2015
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Eric Anderson: any biological system or feature was designed? If not, then she should be able to provide a reasoned explanation for why not There's no scientific evidence of artifice or artisan, and strong scientific evidence of evolutionary processes.Zachriel
November 24, 2015
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Barry @ 77 - it may well be that the Dembski quote I used is a quote-mine. In which case, show it by explaining the precise context. I agree with SB that when discussing science and theology both need to be mentioned, but Dr. Dembski did more than say there was a relationship - he equated ID with theology: he said ID is logos theology. In fact he emphasised it by saying that ID is just logos theology. As I pointed out in 16 there are formulations that he could have used which would have avoided this, but he didn't use them. Amusingly, your quote of Dr. Dembski further undermines your original point. In particular:
Anyone willing to set aside naturalistic prejudices and consider the possibility of evidence for intelligence in the natural world is a friend of intelligent design.
Dr. Liddle & I both accept that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis, but Dr. Dembski disagrees, and says we have to accept non-natural (=supernatural. Is there any alternative?) possibilities.Bob O'H
November 24, 2015
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yeah wrong thread. I requested a delete.NickMatzke_UD
November 23, 2015
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Nick, wrong thread perhaps? Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something . . .Eric Anderson
November 23, 2015
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The "non-cladistic" was supposed to go here in my post: Yet more complex methods involve fitting probabilistic models --> Yet more complex (non-cladistic) methods involve fitting probabilistic modelsNickMatzke_UD
November 23, 2015
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Barry @72: That is a good list, and you've done a good job of identifying the particulars. Now it remains to be seen whether there is indeed objective intellectual honesty behind the concessions or whether there is another layer of obfuscation and denial. It should be possible to determine by asking a simple follow up question. For example, does Elizabeth think that any biological system or feature was designed? If not, then she should be able to provide a reasoned explanation for why not -- without going back on any of the 12 things you listed.Eric Anderson
November 23, 2015
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Bobby:
Mapu @ 68 – I frequently work with stochastic model fitting methods that are able to find good solutions in large dimensional space (i.e. several hundreds or even thousands of continuous(*) parameters), so I’m well aware of how easy it is for stochastic search mechanism to find optimal (or close to optimal) solutions. You should look at how much MCMC is used nowadays.
This is a lie, of course. Take the search space of the game of chess. Its size is about 10^50, an intractable search space. Even though current chess engines use a non-stochastic search algorithm (i.e., the search tree is drastically pruned with heuristics), it is still impossible to solve chess even with the most powerful supercomputers in existence. Now, consider search space for the game of Go, 10^150. Go programmers know that a stochastic search is useless. This is why AI researchers are now applying deep neural networks to the problem. Google's DeepMind will have an announcement on this topic in the coming weeks or months. When someone says that they solve optimization problems with a stochastic search algorithm, they are talking about little toy problems with several parameters. You are obviously lying when you claim to do random optimization with 1000s of parameters. You are cheating somewhere. In comparison, the branching factor of chess is only about 50. Now consider the size of the human genome (4 ^ number of base pairs) or a microbe and try to calculate the search space for that. Even a parallel computer the size of quintillions of universes would be no better than a Commodore 64 in such a huge space. PS. You can't fool me, Bob. I've been a software engineer and an AI researcher for many years. I have worked with GAs. They are worthless except when working on little toy problems. And even then, a simple randomized optimizer is much faster than GAs.Mapou
November 23, 2015
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Bob @ 74: I see. Your point is so narrow as to be irrelevant and misleading. That doesn’t make you look any better Bob. You are also wrong. Let’s sum this up. Barry:
Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.
Bob points to a statement by Dembski in an attempt to falsify my claim:
“Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.”
Now, the important qualifier is “(when speaking qua ID).” Bob, perhaps you do not know what “qua” means. Let me help you out. It means: “In the capacity of.” So my statements means: “Every prominent ID theorist has always, when speaking in the capacity of ID, said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.” So has Dembski said qua ID? Virgil gives us a nice summary:
“The Design Revolution”, page 25, Dembski writes: Intelligent Design has theological implications, but it is not a theological enterprise. Theology does not own intelligent design. Intelligent design is not a evangelical Christian thing, or a generally Christian thing or even a generally theistic thing. Anyone willing to set aside naturalistic prejudices and consider the possibility of evidence for intelligence in the natural world is a friend of intelligent design. He goes on to say: Intelligent design requires neither a meddling God nor a meddled world. For that matter, it doesn’t even require there be a God.
How do we reconcile these statements with the one you made? Simple, when he made the statement you quote he was not speaking qua ID. SB does a nice job of explaining this:
Did you read the title of the work in which that comment was made? (“The Bridge Between Science and Theology) It’s kind of hard to discuss the relationship between science and theology without discussing the latter.
Clearly Dembski was not speaking qua ID when he made that statement. What have you done? Why, you’ve quote-mined Dembski. You took his comment out of context and asserted that it means something it plainly does not mean. Quote mining is a form of lying Bob. Lying reflects poorly on you too.Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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'I don’t know if Elizabeth has in fact changed her tune and is actually — in practice, in the real world — willing to consider design in biology, or whether this is just the veneer of objectivity. However, I am very skeptical.' With good reason, I think. It's why I'm puzzled that the opinions of EL should be considered of interest. She and KN are impossibly ambagious sophists - and dissemblers qua that 'veneer of objectivity'.Axel
November 23, 2015
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Mapu @ 68 - I frequently work with stochastic model fitting methods that are able to find good solutions in large dimensional space (i.e. several hundreds or even thousands of continuous(*) parameters), so I'm well aware of how easy it is for stochastic search mechanism to find optimal (or close to optimal) solutions. You should look at how much MCMC is used nowadays. (*) OK, strictly not continuous, as I'm working numericallyBob O'H
November 23, 2015
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Barry @ 20 - you're conflating 2 issues: (1) whether ID is a project to detect supernatural design, and (2) whether any leading ID expert has said that ID is a project to detect supernatural design. I was specifically addressing point 2, and gave the evidence that suggests that one leading ID expert has said that ID is a project to detect supernatural design. Dembski wrote that - irrespective of whether he was right or wrong. So your counter-argument fails: all you are doing is arguing that Dembski was wrong when he wrote that.Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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EA @ 72. You are right to be skeptical about how this will all work out in practice. Here is why I think her post is valuable for promoting dialogue nevertheless. Liddle has conceded the following: 1. Our opponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of biological design (BD) 2. BD does not violate methodological naturalism. 3. As a corollary to 2, BD does not necessarily posit a supernatural designer. 4. It is possible that that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent. 5. It is possible to discover terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent. 6. It is possible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be. 7. It is the evidence that is important. 8. ID is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. 9. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). 10. An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences. 11. In sum, it’s perfectly possible to test intelligent design hypotheses because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios. 12. We have a working definition of an intelligent designer: an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things So the first thing I would say is that if we can begin any discussion with those 12 things off the table, then we’ve made great strides. We can now focus on the evidence instead of constantly swatting at their efforts to rule all evidence that does not support their claims out of court. As to your history with EL, yes she has pulled stunts like the one you describe. This is different because of the context. Look at the following sentence in her post: Barry expresses his epiphany in a UD post REC Becomes a Design Proponent. Then click on the link to my post in that sentence. You will find that everything was touched off not by some impossible mathematical demonstration but by a simple, reasonable and straightforward exercise in design detection performed by Larry Moran: (1) the following indicia of design are present in this organism. (2) I conclude it was designed. Liddle implicitly recognized the validity of that approach when she points to it and says, essentially, I’ve been saying that approach is valid all along. You are correct. She has not been saying that or anything like that all along. But is very good that she is saying it now.Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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Barry: Interesting. I am a bit late to this thread. However, my understanding is that Elizabeth has claimed to be open to the general idea of design detection for some time. At least in word, if not deed. Seems like the last time I was involved in a discussion with her on this point her objection was not to design detection per se. Instead, she came up with an absurd approach that required, in essence, that we know with precise certainty the exact odds of every naturalistic scenario and that this be calculated out to the nth degree before we can say anything about the probabilities. A rather naive and simplistic approach of "Gee, if we don't know the exact odds, then we can't ever say that something is improbable." This despite it being pointed out to her several times that we do know a fair amount about the minimal odds involved and that any additional factors compound the odds, not the other way around. Thus, her approach was essentially to say: "Sure, it is possible to detect design in theory, but not in practice, so we don't have to take the design inference seriously." Her approach sounds objective and reasonable at first blush, but when we dig a little deeper it essentially amounts to a subterfuge of the whole idea that we can detect design in biology. It reminds me a lot of Darwin's objective-sounding but wholly self-serving approach in The Origin: "But I can find no such case." Set up an impossibly high barrier to the questioning of the naturalistic theory, but do it in such a way that it sounds objective on the surface. That way the true believers fall in line and think Darwin (Elizabeth in this case) is being reasonable. I don't frequent TSZ so I don't know if Elizabeth has in fact changed her tune and is actually -- in practice, in the real world -- willing to consider design in biology, or whether this is just the veneer of objectivity. However, I am very skeptical. I suspect you are also skeptical that she is willing to actually consider design in biology. Why? Where is the disconnect between the wonderful, objective-sounding sound bites you cited above and her actual conclusion regarding design in biology? It probably has much to do with her approach I describe above. Or a silly claim that we don't have experience with a designer of life, and so cannot draw analogies; or some similar weak deflection of the actual implementation of design detection in biology. Something to watch out for.Eric Anderson
November 23, 2015
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Z: J. CRAIG VENTER INSTITUTE 2009 As a follow up, we can ask the who, what, when, where, why, and how. http://www.jcvi.org/Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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Jack Jones: Since when did saying design is a better explanation than chance require positing the existence of a griffin? It's an example of design detection related to an organism. Here's another, from Venter's synthetic genome: "J. CRAIG VENTER INSTITUTE 2009 ... 'TO LIVE, TO ERR, TO FALL, TO TRIUMPH, TO RECREATE LIFE OUT OF LIFE.' - JAMES JOYCE"Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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I remember being in 8th grade science class in the Norwalk-La Mirada school district a suburb of Los Angeles, back in the early 60s. One week they had a film about how evolution happened by showing germs that decided to get together into a group and soon they needed to make lungs of some sort and a waste disposal system of some sort etc. etc. A girl asked the teacher how the germs decided how to do all that without having any brains. He answered that germs have little thinking spots, I kid you not, he said little thinking spots and that's where they got their instincts from. I asked the girl what she thought about it and she said it must be true or the teacher wouldn't have told us about the germ's "little thinking spots." The following week in our home room which included Social Studies the teacher showed a film that talked about how just the 200 bones in the human body could never assemble themselves in the correct order if given forever to do it. I asked Gail what she thought and she said that that made more sense and just about every kid in class (about 25 students) started asking questions of the teacher about the science film we had watched the previous week. I'll never forget what she said and I can't even remember her name anymore, but she said, "Some people believe in made up stories" and she positively howled when I told her about the little thinking spots. I did not grow up in a religious house, my parents were your typical American pagan of the time, you know the type God is "some old Man Who lives upstairs and his last name is Damn". But I never forgot the lesson I learned about what people will believe. Essentially the atheist' creation myth is how life came from dirt since proteins cannot form underwater let alone in a hi-temp undersea vent. That is why I am not even able to consider the idea that life formed by itself, it doesn't make any sense and is even more ridiculous than that science teacher's "little thinking spots." For the Darwinist germs actually would have to have a little thinking spot to get together and build all the life forms alive today and in the past.jimmontg
November 23, 2015
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Don't bother with Bob O'H. The man is a crackpot who has a hard time understanding that the combinatorial explosion kills all stochastic search mechanisms dead, including and especially RM+NS.Mapou
November 23, 2015
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Bob O'H:
And yet Dr. Dembski famously wrote “Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.”
Did you read the title of the work in which that comment was made? ("The Bridge Between Science and Theology) It's kind of hard to discuss the relationship between science and theology without discussing the latter. logos noun 1. (often initial capital letter) Philosophy. the rational principle that governs and develops the universe [as found in the study of science] 2. Theology. the divine word or reason incarnate in Jesus Christ. John 1:1–14. [as revealed in scripture] Just so that you will know, Dembski is discussing the relationship between (1) and (2), each of which is one aspect of a single, unified truth.StephenB
November 23, 2015
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What I want to know is this. How did a stupid dirt-worshipping religion like Darwinism become the state religion?Mapou
November 23, 2015
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Mapou How can you even question that dirt made itself and magically became alive. No doubt you are being illogical!!!!!!Andre
November 23, 2015
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I also agree that “design” may be inferred,
Yeah? How?Upright BiPed
November 23, 2015
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LarTanner:
I also agree that “design” may be inferred,
And we should care because of what again?
and that most IDists intend that the Designer is the Abrahamic God.
Most Darwinists, by contrast, believe that inert dirt gave birth to living organisms. Which is more sensible, in your opinion: believing that intelligent designers designed complex living organisms or believing inert dirt designed complex living organisms?Mapou
November 23, 2015
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I also agree that "design" may be inferred, and that most IDists intend that the Designer is the Abrahamic God.LarTanner
November 23, 2015
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asauber @59, Don't sympathize with the troll's plight. He's a malignant narcissist and should suffer for wasting everyone's time with his nonsense.Mapou
November 23, 2015
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'“The appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature.” George Gaylord Simpson' If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... What a pity old, Sam Irving couldn't chip in at greater length, and in person.Axel
November 23, 2015
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You would think there would be some better opposition but these kind of people seem to be mostly what the other side has to muster.
I agree, Jack Jones. And I think the reason Zachy hangs out here is because ID'ers are cooler to him than people in his own tribe. He(?)'s really looking to escape from them. I suspect they are a unhappy group, and I sympathize with his plight. Andrewasauber
November 23, 2015
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