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Hatred of Religion By Materialists More Virulent Than Previously Thought Possible

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See update at the end of this post.

In the comment section to the last post Bill Dembski alluded to an NSF staffer who attempted to justify surfing porn at work.  The staffer’s justification:  he was only trying to help provide a living to poor overseas women. Denyse O’Leary suggested that if this loser had really wanted to help poor women overseas he could have made a donation to any of the various religious orders that actually help poor women overseas instead of participating in ensnaring them in sexual slavery. Dembski responded by posing tongue-in-cheek the following question:

Denyse, You raise an interesting question for Richard Dawkins: If we had to choose one or the other, helping “poor overseas women” by (1) frequenting at taxpayer’s expense porn sites that pay these women a cut, the porn sites presumably constituting a purely secular activity or by (2) donating money to Catholic/Protestant charities that care for these women by providing shelter, food, and medical care, these charities constituting a religious activity, which should we prefer? I suspect RD, given his virulent hatred of religion, would opt for (1).

At least Dembski thought the question was tongue-in-cheek. Who could have expected the reply from someone who calls himself Seversky? First Seversky defended pornography on the ground that it has been around a long time. Seversky, rape, murder, and theft have been around for a long time too; does that make you in favor of those activities as well?

Then Seversky  takes a swipe at Christians who have caused scandals by falling to sexual sin. I suppose Seversky is pushing the risible notion that these handful of failures are somehow representative of the hundreds of millions of Christians who strive daily to live lives marked by adherence to the Golden Rule.

But Seversky’s defense of porn and his attempt to smear millions both pale in comparison to this gob-smacking passage: “I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization [sic] as part of their program.”

 There you have it. Our opponents count among their number a man who would rather see a young woman live in sexual slavery if that’s what it takes to insulate her from the influence of Christians who would try to help her. After I picked myself up from the floor, my first inclination was to delete the comment and ban this moral monster from the site. Then, I thought better of it. Instead, of deleting the comment, I will put it out there for everyone in the world to see. And I say this to our opponents who appear at this site: How do you answer Dembski’s question? Do you agree with Seversky? If not, will you remain silent or will you come on here and distance yourself from the views he expressed?

Update:  As I write this 27 comments have been made.  As I expected, the materialists have stood by their man Seversky, mainly by advancing patently absurd interpretations of his comments.  And they’ve even attacked me, also as expected.  Pathetic.  Again, I was tempted to delete their comments, but I will not.  Instead, I will leave their moral squalor on display for all to see.

41 comments now and still not one materialist has condemned Seversky’s views.  Astounding.

Comments
zeroseven@90 Calling yourself a "Darwinist" and saying "I believe in a higher good" doesn't prove anything. I think StephenB's point is that given the consequences of Darwinism, you can't subscribe to those beliefs. If you do, you're a hypocrite and not an actual Darwinist. It's like saying "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat meat" to argue that not all vegeterians don't eat meat.Berceuse
October 7, 2009
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#93 StephenB Materialist Darwinists don’t believe in free will, or haven’t you heard? They think free will is an “illusion.” Like many materialists/darwinists/evolutionists I find materialism and determinism compatible with free will. I have no doubt you are aware of this.Mark Frank
October 6, 2009
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StephenB:
your insinuation that I was connecting dots that weren’t there reveal the superficial level of your analysis, or rather, I should say, your uninformed visceral reaction.
Well, no, that wasn't my exactly point. At least I didn't think it was. But, since you have demonstrated a rather self-assured understanding of what other people are really thinking, despite their statements to the contrary (Seversky, Monastyrski, and zeroseven}, who am I to assert what I meant? I am just honored that you took the time to tell me what my point was.quaggy
October 6, 2009
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----zeroseven: I am a so-called “Darwinist”. I have self control. I believe in a higher good. So, just proved you wrong. Unless I am really a fundamentalist but don’t know it." How can you have self control without free will? Materialist Darwinists don't believe in free will, or haven't you heard? They think free will is an "illusion." Even Darwin understood the problem and felt quite guilty about it. Also, here is a clue: Tolerance is not a higher good. At best, it is a passive virtue acquired for the sake of a higher good, which you have yet to identify. ----"One higher good I believe in is tolerance (within the framework of not harming others)." Yes, those who defend pornography are always real big on tolerance. That one was easy. ---"Are you saying that If people want to watch pictures or films of other people having consensual sex, why shouldn’t they? Who are you to pass judgement?" I have already given several reasons why pornography is a bad thing. I didn't pass judgment on any of these commentators; I simply stated their position for them until they finally decided to confess it. In any case, who are you to pass judgment on me for passing judgment. By what moral standard do you declare that I shouldn't pass judgment on bad behavior. ---"I’m happy to say that I do not think there is anything about pornography per se that needs defending. You should try it, you might enjoy it." Thank you for your confession. I sincerely hope that, someday, you can liberate yourself from those chains.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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Monastyrski, It seems that the materialists have really begun to cling to the "Golden Rule" as an (attempted) easy out of an embarrassing predicament they are clearly in. The problem is that it does exactly zero to extract them from their situation. To what authority or logic can you appeal when someone comes up and says, "'F' the golden rule! I'll do unto you as I please!" If you can explain that, again, logically, then the Golden Rule has done something for you— otherwise, nothing at all.Brent
October 6, 2009
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---quaggy: "I would also add that Seversky has not specifically condemned the consumption of internet bandwidth by people downloading pornography thereby removing said bandwidth from business enterprises that would use it to help get us out of the recession. Therefore implying that Seversky doesn’t want the economy to improve." Now that seversky, to his credit, has acknowledged that he finds nothing wrong with pornography and prostitution, your insinuation that I was connecting dots that weren't there reveal the superficial level of your analysis, or rather, I should say, your uninformed visceral reaction.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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StephenB says the silliest things. I am a so-called "Darwinist". I have self control. I believe in a higher good. So, just proved you wrong. Unless I am really a fundamentalist but don't know it. One higher good I believe in is tolerance (within the framework of not harming others). If people want to watch pictures or films of other people having consensual sex, why shouldn't they? Who are you to pass judgement? I'm happy to say that I do not think there is anything about pornography per se that needs defending. You should try it, you might enjoy it.zeroseven
October 6, 2009
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----seversky: "If pornography is not forced on those who want nothing to do with it, if the production and consumption of pornography is voluntary and no one – and no animal – is harmed in the process, then I see no objection." Thank you for acknowledging that which we already knew and stated, even though our critics accused us all along of misrepresenting your position. ----"On the related question of prostitution, it hardly needs to be said that people have been exchanging sexual favors for money or some other form of reward since time immemorial. That, of course, is an observation not a justification. However, on the presumption of the freedom of the individual, it needs no justification." Thank you again for acknowledging that which we already knew even before you confirmed it.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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-----Monastyrski “The standard is the golden rule. This seems to be human nature, but it doesn’t work without some policing. I think the source of that is evolutionary selection of stable social groups.” The golden rule is a beautiful standard, but it is too ambiguous to anchor a moral code. Indeed, it cannot even instruct you on the problem of pornography, which you submit “is not always wrong,” while providing no reason for thinking so. And, as suckerspawn has pointed out, it may well not inform you position on abortion as well. In any case, if its source is evolutionary selection, then it will soon be obsolete, since it too along with everything else would be transient. -----“You seem to be incapable of having a theory of mind, something even lesser primates are capable of. Pornography is not a bad thing if it doesn’t hurt anybody. Can you conceive of that possibility?” That is quite funny given the fact that I believe in minds, while you believe only in brains or else minds grounded in matter, which are not really minds at all. Materialism, I must point out again, rules out objective morality in principle. That is why I can say with confidence that you, as a Darwinist, do not believe in any “higher good” to be arrived at through self control since you believe neither in self control or the “good.” ----“Who the hell do you think you are to judge my believe in any higher good or my ability of self control? It is people like you that dehumanize other people, based on your self-righteousness, and caused much human suffering” I have asked you several times to articulate your notion of a “higher good,” your perceptions about self control, and the faculty of the human will, which makes it possible. You have no answer. It is not I who dehumanize, but rather the Darwinists who refuse to acknowledge the inherent dignity of the human person, the power of self control, and the possibility of acquiring virtue. Those are the things that humanize us, and you, as a Darwinist, are bound to disavow them. Indeed, like seversky, you can’t even condemn the dehumanizing aspects of pornography.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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vjtorley @ 42
“Whether we like it or not, religious belief seems to have been a by-product of human psychology at least since recorded history began. Societies have, at various times, indulged it or tried to suppress it. Neither approach stopped it." “Nor has affiliation with a professional scientific organization been as successful at immunizing members against religious belief as adherents of secular humanism would like to believe..."
That is pretty close to what I believe. We are nowhere near the eradication of religious belief and it is highly unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. Nor, I think, should we be trying. What people choose to believe is their business provided it does not lead them harm others. The most I would hope for is that at some time in the future the default assumption will be that there is no god and the various faiths will then have to persuade people that there is such a thing.
"The scandal of the psychological abuse suffered by the children of a few militant “scientific atheists,” who were indoctrinated from an early age against any form of religious belief has already been alluded to. In some cases the mental trauma these children endured from being told they lived in a bleak, pitiless universe, obeying blind mechanical laws, even resulted in their converting to religion, in an attempt to find meaning in their lives."
Again, I think there is a lot of truth there. I suspect a lot of people turn or belong to religions precisely because they find the alternative assumption bleak and intolerable. The answer, of course, is that we see no reason to think that the Universe was set up just for our convenience and that, in any event, the fact that a godless Universe is intolerable to us does not mean the opposite must be true.
"And there is surely no need to remind onlookers of the cases of other prominent secular humanists who have fallen below the standards of religious non-affiliation that they preached to others, by getting married in a church, allowing their own children to go to church, and even having church funerals when they died."
As someone else said: "People in glass houses..."Seversky
October 6, 2009
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Coming now to the question of pornography, perhaps we should take closer look at it - metaphorically speaking. The Merriam-Webster definition of 'pornography' is as follows:
Main Entry: por·nog·ra·phy Pronunciation: \-f?\ Function: noun Etymology: Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from porn? prostitute + graphein to write; akin to Greek pernanai to sell, poros journey — more at fare, carve Date: 1858 1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement 2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement 3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction
Qiute clearly, this covers - dare we say it - a multitude of sins. At the milder end of the spectrum, it is difficult to distinguish the erotic from the pornographic, assuming there is a meaningful distinction. Is the famous nude photograph of the young Marilyn Monroe erotic or pornographic, for example? What of the various depictions of the story of The Rape of the Sabine Women by great classical artists like Poussin, David or Rubens? At the opposite end of the scale we have horrifying images which associate sexual gratification with extreme violence against women or the abuse of children. In between there is a vast range of material catering to almost any conceivable taste. The question is what can we or, indeed, should we do about it? Quite clearly there are some who find it offensive in any form but equally clearly Internet search statistics and the size of the porn industry are evidence of the fact that there are many who take a different view. As I see it, there are rights at issue here. One is freedom of expression. The fact that some find an image or a book offensive is not necessarily a reason to censor it. There is no recognized right not to be offended, nor should there be. On the other hand there is little doubt that some pornography involves the coercion and exploitation of vulnerable women and children. This is a clear breach of their human rights and involves criminal offenses. There is an argument for banning this sort of material on the grounds that it should be an offense to profit from criminal activities since it will tend to encourage others to commit similar offenses if they see there is money to be made. Going back to Mill, in my view the issue should be decided by the freedom of the individual. What consenting adults do with - or to - each other in private is nobody's business but theirs. In the words of the Victorian actress, Mrs Patrick Campbell, commenting about homosexuals: "Does it really matter what these affectionate people do-- so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses!" But it also goes without saying that vulnerable women and children both have rights and society has an overriding duty to ensure that they are protected from exploitation and harm. If pornography is not forced on those who want nothing to do with it, if the production and consumption of pornography is voluntary and no one - and no animal - is harmed in the process, then I see no objection. On the related question of prostitution, it hardly needs to be said that people have been exchanging sexual favors for money or some other form of reward since time immemorial. That, of course, is an observation not a justification. However, on the presumption of the freedom of the individual, it needs no justification. As long as the contracting parties are consenting adults, their business is their own and none of society's. The exception, of course, is forced prostitution or sexual slavery. These are rightly serious criminal offenses and indefensible on any grounds.Seversky
October 6, 2009
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@Monastyrski You need to relax. It's just a discussion on a message board. StephenB has been most charitable with your position thus far. He has simply asked you to justify it: "What are those standards and what is their source?" "Are you saying that it is, at other times, a bad thing, or are you equivocating again? How could you know one way of the other since you have no standard by which to judge sexual morality? On what basis do you declare that pornography is “not always a bad thing?”" There are more, but you have yet to answer any of them. Take a step back, and reason through this. Throwing around baseless claims/insults such as: "You have made up own your little autistic world where that is the case. You gave up on trying to understand other people a long time ago. Too bad for you." "You seem to be incapable of having a theory of mind, something even lesser primates are capable of. Pornography is not a bad thing if it doesn’t hurt anybody." "Who the hell do you think you are to judge my believe in any higher good or my ability of self control? It is people like you that dehumanize other people, based on your self-righteousness, and caused much human suffering." This won't get you anywhere. It's no use getting upset if you cannot defend your position in an argument you started. There's no reason to make it personal, either. What, besides how you "feel," are you basing your beliefs on?HouseStreetRoom
October 6, 2009
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Golden Rule? Would you support a woman's choice to terminate an unwanted fetus because you would want to have the same choice? or Would you be opposed to killing an unborn baby because if you were an unborn baby you would not want to be killed?suckerspawn
October 6, 2009
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StepehnB,
I know very well what Darwinists believe, which is why I can ask them questions that they cannot answer. In that context, I just made an argument, and you just dodged it.
No, obviously you have no idea what Darwinists believe. You have made up own your little autistic world where that is the case. You gave up on trying to understand other people a long time ago. Too bad for you.
What are those standards and what is their source?
The standard is the golden rule. This seems to be human nature, but it doesn't work without some policing. I think the source of that is evolutionary selection of stable social groups.
Are you saying that it is, at other times, a bad thing, or are you equivocating again? How could you know one way of the other since you have no standard by which to judge sexual morality? On what basis do you declare that pornography is “not always a bad thing?” How do you assess the inherent dignity of the human person or the objectification of one person to another? How do you assess the internal dynamic of one who has become addicted to it? How does the phony intimacy of pornography contribute to the real intimacy strived for in human relationships. As a materialist Darwininst, you have no tools to analyze the situation in any context at all.
You seem to be incapable of having a theory of mind, something even lesser primates are capable of. Pornography is not a bad thing if it doesn't hurt anybody. Can you conceive of that possibility?
Materialism, I must point out again, rules out objective morality in principle. That is why I can say with confidence that you, as a Darwinist, do not believe in any “higher good” to be arrived at through self control since you believe neither in self control or the “good.”
Who the hell do you think you are to judge my believe in any higher good or my ability of self control? It is people like you that dehumanize other people, based on your self-righteousness, and caused much human suffering.Monastyrski
October 6, 2009
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The issue is not whether self control is limited to sexual contexts, but rather whether it exists at all. Materialist Darwinists say no. As a Darwinist, you are bound to say no as well. Obviously, you can’t recommend the use of something that you do not believe exists. ----Monastyrski “You obviously have no idea what Darwinists believe. You have created your own little fantasy world in which you get to play Don Quixote, bravely fighting the Darwinian windmills. I hope you wake up one day.” I know very well what Darwinists believe, which is why I can ask them questions that they cannot answer. In that context, I just made an argument, and you just dodged it. ----“Darwinists have rational standards with which to evaluate morality. You on the other hand rely on “the imaginary guy with the biggest gun (God) is right” kind of morality.” What are those standards and what is their source? ----“Pornography is not always a bad thing. If consenting adults wish to film their sexual intercourse and show their cinematographics to other consenting adults, then there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Do you disagree with that? If so, why?” Are you saying that it is, at other times, a bad thing, or are you equivocating again? How could you know one way of the other since you have no standard by which to judge sexual morality? On what basis do you declare that pornography is “not always a bad thing?” How do you assess the inherent dignity of the human person or the objectification of one person to another? How do you assess the internal dynamic of one who has become addicted to it? How does the phony intimacy of pornography contribute to the real intimacy strived for in human relationships. As a materialist Darwininst, you have no tools to analyze the situation in any context at all. To answer your question, yes, pornography is always a bad thing. It devalues human dignity, promotes the loveless objectification of one human being by another, and, given time, enslaves all its victims, compromising their capacity to make rational judgments on matters of intimacy, morality, and social justice. Materialism, I must point out again, rules out objective morality in principle. That is why I can say with confidence that you, as a Darwinist, do not believe in any “higher good” to be arrived at through self control since you believe neither in self control or the “good.” If you contest that point, explain what you think that higher good might be, why it qualifies as a “good,” and explain the source of the self control that makes it possible. -----“Your so-called objective morality is not objective at all. First, you have to assume that whatever your god declares moral is objectively moral, which is begging the question. Second, you have to assume that your god exists, which is subjective. Therefore, you have no credible claim to know whether objective morality exists at all, and even if it does you cannot know what it is. Therefore, your attacks on the morality of Darwinists are entirely misguided.”” I didn’t argue on behalf of objective morality. I pointed out that materialist/Darwinism rules it out in principle. I didn’t say a word about God or religion. I simply pointed out that you, and all other Darwinists, have no standard for morality----and you don’t. I also pointed out that you disavow any concept of the “good” or any meaningful concept of self control. Both statements are obviously true, and you obviously have no answer.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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StepehnB,
Nice try. The issue is not whether self control is limited to sexual contexts, but rather whether it exists at all. Materialist Darwinists say no. As a Darwinist, you are bound to say no as well. Obviously, you can’t recommend the use of something that you do not believe exists.
You obviously have no idea what Darwinists believe. You have created your own little fantasy world in which you get to play Don Quixote, bravely fighting the Darwinian windmills. I hope you wake up one day.
You are very confused. We are not discussing deriving an “ought” from an “is.” Darwinists have no standard through which they can evaluate morality—period.. Thus, they cannot declare that pornography is a good thing or a bad thing. Indeed, seversky, and you I gather, think it is a natural result of sexuality.
It is you who is confused. Darwinists have rational standards with which to evaluate morality. You on the other hand rely on "the imaginary guy with the biggest gun (God) is right" kind of morality. Pornography is not always a bad thing. If consenting adults wish to film their sexual intercourse and show their cinematographics to other consenting adults, then there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Do you disagree with that? If so, why?
Materialism rules out objective morality in principle, or is that news to you? That is why I can say with confidence that you, as a Darwinist, do not believe in any “higher good” to be arrived at through self control since you believe neither in self control or the “good.” If you contest that point, explain what you think that higher good might be, why it qualifies as a “good,” and explain the source of the self control that makes it possible.
Your so-called objective morality is not objective at all. First, you have to assume that whatever your god declares moral is objectively moral, which is begging the question. Second, you have to assume that your god exists, which is subjective. Therefore, you have no credible claim to know whether objective morality exists at all, and even if it does you cannot know what it is. Therefore, your attacks on the morality of Darwinists are entirely misguided.Monastyrski
October 6, 2009
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----Monastyrski: “I didn’t realize that for you self control is restricted to sexual contexts. In the interest of young readers I shall not ask you to explain why.” Nice try. The issue is not whether self control is limited to sexual contexts, but rather whether it exists at all. Materialist Darwinists say no. As a Darwinist, you are bound to say no as well. Obviously, you can't recommend the use of something that you do not believe exists. ----"Darwinists typically do not derive an “ought” from an “is”, as my above quote of Dawkins exemplifies very nicely. Your caricature of Darwinists is about as silly as saying that Einsteinists don’t believe in parachutes.” You are very confused. We are not discussing deriving an “ought” from an “is.” Darwinists have no standard through which they can evaluate morality---period.. Thus, they cannot declare that pornography is a good thing or a bad thing. Indeed, seversky, and you I gather, think it is a natural result of sexuality. Materialism rules out objective morality in principle, or is that news to you? That is why I can say with confidence that you, as a Darwinist, do not believe in any "higher good" to be arrived at through self control since you believe neither in self control or the "good." If you contest that point, explain what you think that higher good might be, why it qualifies as a "good," and explain the source of the self control that makes it possible. ----“Really? [Darwinists don’t even believe that humans possess a will that would facilitate the self control].You say this with such confidence that I have to assume you have some data showing that Darwinists are more likely to indulge in porn than non-Darwinists. Please share your information with us.” You seem to have great difficulty focusing one argument at a time. I said that Darwinists, don’t accept the reality of a human will, which means of course, that they have no faculty with which to exercise self control.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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StephenB,
You example has nothing at all to do with exercising self control over one’s sexual passions or using restraint in avoiding pornography. Darwinists don’t even believe that humans possess a will that would facilitate the self control.
You asked whether anyone had ever heard of "a Darwinist recommending self control [for] the sake of a higher good?”. I didn't realize that for you self control is restricted to sexual contexts. In the interest of young readers I shall not ask you to explain why.
Nor do Darwinists believe in a “higher good,” since they don’t accept the proposition that there could be any such good higher than survival.
I have to educate you again. Please pay attention this time. Darwinists typically do not derive an "ought" from an "is", as my above quote of Dawkins exemplifies very nicely. Your caricature of Darwinists is about as silly as saying that Einsteinists don't believe in parachutes.
Darwinists don’t even believe that humans possess a will that would facilitate the self control.
Really? You say this with such confidence that I have to assume you have some data showing that Darwinists are more likely to indulge in porn than non-Darwinists. Please share your information with us.Monastyrski
October 6, 2009
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StephenB lowers the boom:
You have written not one word in your response condemning pornography. Rather, you changed the subject rather dramatically, implying that you don’t think pornography is the equivalent of sexual slavery, which means that you have left the door open for continuing to defend the former. Also, you have nothing to say about the poor fool who has become addicted to it and needs some kind of liberation.
I would also add that Seversky has not specifically condemned the consumption of internet bandwidth by people downloading pornography thereby removing said bandwidth from business enterprises that would use it to help get us out of the recession. Therefore implying that Seversky doesn't want the economy to improve.quaggy
October 6, 2009
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----seversky: "That said, let me make it quite clear that if the only charity in a position to aid women held in sexual slavery were religious then, of course, it should be supported. Forced prostitution is a grave breach of the women’s human rights and a serious criminal offense in any civilized country." You have written not one word in your response condemning pornography. Rather, you changed the subject rather dramatically, implying that you don't think pornography is the equivalent of sexual slavery, which means that you have left the door open for continuing to defend the former. Also, you have nothing to say about the poor fool who has become addicted to it and needs some kind of liberation. You have already declared that mankind has never been able to stop pornography and that it is a natural result of human sexuality. So, which is it? It is natural or unnatural? If it is natural, why fight it? If, on the other hand, we should fight it, why do you suggest that we give up trying? Is pornography sexual slavery or something different? If "coherence" is your standard, you are miles away from having achieved that goal.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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I wrote: "Whoever heard of a Darwinist recommending self control the sake of a higher good?" Monastyrski: "I have plenty of times. For example, this is what “arch-darwinist” Richard Dawkins said..............[a long extended irrelevant quote] You example has nothing at all to do with exercising self control over one's sexual passions or using restraint in avoiding pornography. Nor do Darwinists believe in a "higher good," since they don't accept the proposition that there could be any such good higher than survival. Darwinists don't even believe that humans possess a will that would facilitate the self control. Thus, it is you who needs to augment your education.StephenB
October 6, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, Are you conflating materialist and determinist in your last comment? I think Roger Penrose bases his idea of free will on QM.Nakashima
October 6, 2009
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I'd like to commend Seversky for his dignified response. I think we all agree that the Golden Rule is generally a sensible guide to what's right and wrong. I think there are few, if any, believers who would happily commit murder if God hadn't told us not to. Scripture itself says that we have the moral law written on our hearts (Romans 2:15), so we don't need a revelation to know that nurder is wrong. I see from Seversky's response that he is a fan of John Stuart Mill, so I'd like to ask him a substantive question which I hope he will tackle in his second post: how free does he think human beings are, and why? If he believes in libertarian freedom, how does he reconcile this with his belief in materialism?vjtorley
October 6, 2009
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StephenB, Now, now. Your posts demonstrate very clearly that Darwin's work wasn't necessary to be an intellectually lazy lecher. For example, you wrote in this thread:
Whoever heard of a Darwinist recommending self control the sake of a higher good?
I have plenty of times. For example, this is what "arch-darwinist" Richard Dawkins said:
From a Darwinian point of view, the problem with sustainability is this: sustainability is all about long-term benefits of the world at the expense of short-term benefits. Darwinism encourages precisely the opposite values. Short-term genetic benefit is all that matters in a Darwinian world. Superficially, the values that will have been built into us will have been short-term values, not long-term ones. But this is not a reason for despair, nor does it mean that we should cynically abandon the long-term future, gleefully scrap the Kyoto accords and similar agreements, and get our noses down in the trough of short-term greed. What it does mean is that we must work all the harder for the long-term future, in spite of getting no help from nature, precisely because nature is not on our side. Humans are no worse than the rest of the animal kingdom. We are no more selfish than any other animals, just rather more effective in our selfishness and therefore more devastating. All animals do what natural selection programmed their ancestors to do, which is to look after the short-term interest of themselves and their close family, cronies and allies. If any species in the history of life has the possibility of breaking away from short-term Darwinian selfishness and of planning for the distant future, it is our species. We are earth's last best hope, even if we are simultaneously the species most capable in practice of destroying life on the planet. When it comes to taking the long view we are literally unique. No other species is remotely capable of it. If we do not plan for the future, no other species will.
Having educated you thusly, I trust that in the future you will no longer resort to such lazy broad brush characterizations.Monastyrski
October 6, 2009
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Moving away from the criticism of one person, who I think has been hit hard enough, there is a broader point to be made. If a man does not change his behavior to harmonize with a philosophy of life, he will change his philosophy of life to harmonize with his behavior. Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled lecherStephenB
October 5, 2009
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First, as Mark Frank suggested, I would also like to thank those ID supporters like Joseph and vjtorley who spoke out on my behalf. I confess I was somewhat surprised and taken aback at the vehemence of Barry Arrington's response to my comment and the fact that what I wrote could have been misinterpreted so completely. Let me try to clarify my position. The original post by William Dembski highlighted a report in The Washington Times headlined "EXCLUSIVE: Porn surfing rampant at U.S. science foundation". This post and the subsequent exchange of comments with Denyse O'Leary suggest that their purpose was to smear atheists and evolutionists through guilt by association. The evidence for this lies in the observation that a report about employee misconduct at the NSF was used as a springboard to tasteless and totally unwarranted speculation that Richard Dawkins, being an atheist, would prefer to support the use of pornography rather than support religious charities trying to help women caught up in sexual slavery:
Denyse, You raise an interesting question for Richard Dawkins: If we had to choose one or the other, helping “poor overseas women” by (1) frequenting at taxpayer’s expense porn sites that pay these women a cut, the porn sites presumably constituting a purely secular activity or by (2) donating money to Catholic/Protestant charities that care for these women by providing shelter, food, and medical care, these charities constituting a religious activity, which should we prefer? I suspect RD, given his virulent hatred of religion, would opt for (1).
Even allowing for the fact that there is clearly no love lost between Dembski and Dawkins, there was no call for this sort of comment. In any event, a close reading of the Times report shows that the facts as reported do not justify the headline or the sensationalist construction the journalist places on them. According to the report:
Documents obtained by The Times through an open records request show the foundation's inspector general closed 10 employee misconduct investigations last year, up from just three in 2006. There were seven cases in 2007. Of the 10 cases closed last year, seven involved online pornography, records show.
In other words, in 2008 the Foundation's inspector general closed a total of seven investigations into employee misconduct involving online pornography. No one is trying to pretend that employee use of online pornography in the workplace is not serious misconduct but I would argue that seven cases out of a workforce of 1200 does not support the allegation that "porn surfing" is "rampant" at the agency. I sidestepped the false dichotomy posed by Dembski's question by saying that I would prefer to donate to secular charities. That said, let me make it quite clear that if the only charity in a position to aid women held in sexual slavery were religious then, of course, it should be supported. Forced prostitution is a grave breach of the women's human rights and a serious criminal offense in any civilized country. Any objections to proselytizing charities are insignificant in comparison. The subsequent debate has focussed on three separate although related issues: pornography, prostitution and sexual slavery and, of course, the morality of all of them. At this point I should say that my own view of morality is based on two principles. The first is the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The second is derived from On Liberty, John Stuart Mill's treatise on the rights of the individual in society which argues, in part, that individuals should be free to do whatever they like up to the point at which their actions harm the rights or persons of others. The fundamental rights to which we should all be entitled, and which should be held inviolate except where to uphold one would cause an even graver injustice than to set it aside, are set out admirably, in my view, in the United States Constitution. Atheists and agnostics have been accused of moral relativism, of having no basis on which they can justify any particular moral code, of denying the existence of any form of objective reality and there is some truth to such allegations. But there is merit in the counter-arguments as well. It is questionable whether objective morality is a coherent concept. If it means that the morality of believers is grounded in the unassailable authority of their god then, unless they can demonstrate the existence of that god, the claim is baseless. And are believers really saying that they would not know that murder, rape or child abuse are wrong if their god had not told them? I would like to take this further but I think I will do something I have never done before and take it to a second post.Seversky
October 5, 2009
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[note: could a moderator please convert the spelling of 'lomg' to 'long' in my previous post. Jeezz, that's great that it has to be the first word I ever typed here.]NoterFromtheUnderground
October 5, 2009
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Lomg time reader, first time poster. There's what's said, and there's [not sic] the implications of what's said. The reader draws the implications, not the writer. However, the writer may be so general as to draw manifold implications, which I sespect has happened here between Seversky, Mr. Arrington, and many others on the board from both sides of the argument. There are two seperate board posts on U.D. due to Seversky's post, and I suppose s/he should be congratulated for sparking such a large ethical debate, but rereading the original post I can't see how this ever came about. "Whether we like it or not, pornography seems to have been a by-product of human sexuality at least since recorded history began" This is a remarkably safe comment. Not safe because it has facts or cites histories, but safe because it uses 'seems' on top of a broad general statement. It also says as much as: pornography is a by-product of human sexuality. Reread the previous sentence a few times to savor its meaninglessness. "Societies have, at various times, indulged it or tried to suppress it. Neither approach stopped it." Speaking of meaninglessness, neither approach stopped it? So indulging in pornography did not stop pornography? This must have been written as a joke. "Nor has religious affiliation been as successful at immunizing believers against sexual misbehavior as its adherents like to believe." I guess one can take his/her word for it. It's as general a statement as anything else made here so far. One really wonders if people are so simmilar to be grouped into 'religiously affiliated' or 'religiously unaffiliated'. And who exactly are the 'adherents' who like to believe that they immunize people against sexual misbehavior? There's a lot of wanted information. "The scandal of abuse by a few Catholic priests has already been alluded to and there is surely no need to remind onlookers of the cases of other prominent Christians who have fallen below the standards of morality they preached to others." The above makes the claim that some Christians fall below the standards of morality. "As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization [not sic] as part of their program." Brakets mine. Another broad sweep. The most prominent implication here would be that all religious charities proselytize [not sic, why was there ever a sic? Don't we know what's being said? Doesn't English allow these constructions?]. In context with the main UD post (that tax dollars have been going to the NSF (and therefore is relevant science/social news, theredore relevant to I.D. news) to fund a few higher-up's porn) and the first few comments, it is difficult to fit S.'s post in also. It seems to go off on it's own and make little more than genralizations. And so, why did U.D. make two more posts about it? Why were ad hominem words used like 'materialist' as if a Darwinist were saying 'creationist'? There were probably more diplomatic ways to go about this, like pointing out the generalizations and begging the questions. I just don't think this was anything to get riled about or make some big statement about. It will come across as petty later on if it hasn't already.NoterFromtheUnderground
October 5, 2009
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"Whether we like it or not, pornography seems to have been a by-product of human sexuality at least since recorded history began."--Seversky Seversky's point as I read it is that pornography is a by-product of human sexuality. How could I read it otherwise? Unfortunately for the materialist, the statement can be extended to " . . . a product of human behavior . . ." then to " . . . a product of animal behavior . . ." then to " . . . a consequence of nature. . . " finally to "Pornography IS." Seversky's problem is not so much that he can't say whether pornography is supportable or not supportable; his problem is that he can't say either. When combined with squirming sideways about giving, things only got worse. Personally, I can't understand why he doesn't just admit that he'd painted himself into a corner and condemned pornography even while admitting that according to his beliefs about its origins, there is nothing to be done about it. Seems as though he prefers to be more scoundrel than fool. I am much more comfortable being a fool. I have to say that it's amusing to watch BarryA set a trap, "At least Dembski thought the question was tongue-in-cheek. Who could have expected the reply from someone who calls himself Seversky? First Seversky defended pornography on the ground that it has been around a long time."--BarryA Then, watch numerous materialists fall in. And finally, watch StephenB nail the trap shut. (@33) Thanks guys, that was fun.Tim
October 5, 2009
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DonaldM:
First off, I reject the notion that the question as posed is a false dichomotmy. It isn’t because Dembski wasn’t implying that these two options represent all available options.
So, I take this to mean that you agree that there are more options than were presented in the original question. And I will also assume that you would accept that supporting a secular charity is one of those available, but unstated, options.
Seversky’s answer rejects supporting the Catholic charity, therefore by elimination he/she opts for the other alternative presented in this particular question.
Well, I would first note that Seversky did not reject the idea of supporting a Catholic charity. Here merely stated that he would prefer to support a secular charity. Additionally, by limiting the response only to those answers which allow you to score rhetorical points, you belie your seriousness about having this dicussion. So, when Seversky states his honest preference of supporting a secular charity, you assume this means he would never support a religious one and further assume he would rather support sex workers by...umm...frequenting their business instead. And the result of these assumptions is to allow you to reject Seversky's answer and assign him one yourself. Again, I say, for shame.quaggy
October 5, 2009
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