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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
Mung,
Indeed it does. But it misses the point. The way you treat opponents could be due to your ignorance and it could reflect your ignorance. You could be naive. But that’s not the point I was trying to make.
Well, if you want to associate choosing to be respectful and charitable in debate with ignorance and naivete, it's certainly within your rights to do so. But for my part, I'm not charitable because I'm gullible. I'm charitable because I choose to be. I'm respectful because I choose to be. And because I choose to debate this way, if you see me question the honesty of an opponent's tactics or eventually choose to write someone off as being disingenuous or arguing in bad faith, you can be quite sure that I'm doing so because I honestly believe they have more than earned that accusation and are simply wasting my time rather than because I'm being uncharitable and simply using those accusations as an excuse to exit a discussion. Of course, if and when I eventually leave this discussion with Keith, you can bet he's going to claim that it's for the latter reason, but it's not the likes of people like him that I want to make sure recognize the truth of the matter.
My point was that no matter how an opponent is treated, the same result is obtained.
That's an interesting theory, but I don't happen to agree with it. That may be true of some opponents, like those who are completely closed off to any kind of criticism or counter-argument, but why would that be universally true? Do you really think there's no such thing as an open-minded opponent who honestly disagrees with you but is at least open to the possibility that they might be mistaken? And do you really think that being rude and overly antagonistic couldn't possibly shut down conversation with a person who could otherwise be persuaded by sound-reasoning delivered respectfully?
So how is it that your approach is better than the approach of anyone else here at UD? Seriously, I want to know.
Huh? Where on earth did you get that from? All I said was that I don't agree with one aspect (rudeness and name-calling) of the approach that some people here (on both sides) employ. I'm not sure how you get from that to the idea that I've claimed my approach is better than the approach of anyone else at UD. I don't think that and I didn't say anything remotely likely that.
What do you think it takes to get our opponents to engage in honest and constructive debate?
Well, they need to be honest and open to constructive debate. You can't force people to be like that. But even when they aren't like that, I don't see the need to resort to rudeness and name-calling (though I recognize that frustration may occasionally get the better of anyone). Should we strongly and pointedly draw attention to their poor tactics and reasoning? Sure. Even repeatedly. If they've exhausted your intellectual charity and seem to be behaving dishonestly, say so. But if the discussion gets to the point that you're not motivated to do anything other than point out how stupid you think someone is, well, that's around the time I would personally choose to exit the discussion because nothing else of any use is likely to come from either side. But that's me. If someone else chooses to do otherwise, that's their business. But in my personal opinion it's counterproductive and can reflect poorly on the position someone is arguing for. Many of the rabid anti-ID people resort to insults, misrepresentation and faulty logic because those are the only tools in their toolbox. Why follow their lead when we can do better?HeKS
November 25, 2014
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Keith S You are not one bit interested in truth. You have no intellectual honour and that is plain for all to see. Lastly if you can't believe yourself why the hell should we?Andre
November 25, 2014
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Andre @285:
CS Lewis said it best about our opponents. “I’m not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I’m interested in is leading a good life. I’m going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.”
Andre, You know what's funny? Lewis mocks that viewpoint, but it could have come straight from the mouth of William J Murray, who writes things like that all the time:
As it doesn’t matter to me if my beliefs are true or not, doubt of any kind is a non-issue. I guess you could say that I’m the ultimate pragmatist; I don’t care if my beliefs are true; I only care that they work (or at least appear to). If they stopped working, I’d believe something else. Doubt, in my system, is a non-sequitur.
It isn't your opponents who don't care about the truth. It's your fellow IDer, William J Murray. Box made the same mistake as you. I've pointed it out a couple of times, but Box is too embarrassed to reply.keith s
November 25, 2014
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I can say this with certainty, our opponents are not interested in truth...... The whole PCD debate highlights that, distortion of what I've posted, ignoring tactics, false accusations and lastly flat out science denial. CS Lewis said it best about our opponents. "I’m not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I’m interested in is leading a good life. I’m going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful."Andre
November 25, 2014
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HeKS:
The way I treat my opponents reflects on me.
Indeed it does. But it misses the point. The way you treat opponents could be due to your ignorance and it could reflect your ignorance. You could be naive. But that's not the point I was trying to make. My point was that no matter how an opponent is treated, the same result is obtained. So how is it that your approach is better than the approach of anyone else here at UD? Seriously, I want to know. What do you think it takes to get our opponents to engage in honest and constructive debate?Mung
November 25, 2014
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@Box Re: your #161
HeKS touches on what I have called Keith’s category mistake. Decisions by a free agent cannot be equated with the role of a die. If Keith insists on doing so, he is required to make the further unsupported assumption, that the designer is completely indifferent about the ordering of life. IOW in order for the comparison of a designer with a trillion-sided die to make sense, Keith has to make the following unsupported assumptions: 1. There are a trillion options available for the designer. 2. The designer is completely indifferent about the ordering of life. Indifference implies that the designer has no reason at all to favor one option over others. IOW Keith has to add more unsupported assumptions, and in effect strip a free agent of his ‘personhood’ – choice, reason, preference -, in order to equate a free agent to a random process like the role of a die.
I very much agree with you. If there's any point where there might be room to quibble it's in saying that Keith's assumption is that the designer is "indifferent about the ordering of life". That may be exactly right, and basically is exactly what Keith is assuming - or at least thinks he's assuming - in his argument. However, if you consider the matter in light of what I've been saying to Keith about what would be required for the designer to "completely wreck" the statistical ONH signal, Keith would actually have to assume that the designer passionately wants to eradicate any statistically inferable ONH signal that would naturally be left behind as the byproduct of a process that used branching descent as a method to distribute traits to subsequent generations while also facilitating organismal adaptation through microevolutionary processes. The first assumption turns the designer into a random natural process. The second assigns a bizarre, intuitively implausible psychology to the designer that cannot be remotely inferred from the details of the systems that are inferred to be designed. Neither one makes any sense.HeKS
November 25, 2014
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Our materialist friends are just too precious.... Speech evolved from a common ancestor...... I say all well and fine if you have a good imagination but here is the issue and it's a biggie..... For information to mean anything, in this case speech the system has some minimum requirements that have to be in place before you can even transact..... Stuff like encoders and decoders..... they can't evolve because they are prerequisites for the system to work..... But please don't let this stand in the way of your vivid imaginations......Andre
November 25, 2014
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Mung,
Using your approach is like attracting flies with honey. You treat them respectfully, you take them seriously, and in return you get what? More flies?
The way I treat my opponents reflects on me. The way they respond and/or generally behave reflects on them. A good argument doesn't need rudeness to bolster it, nor does it require an unending string of evasions to defend it. Weak arguments need at least one and usually both of those things. When I see people behaving poorly, consistently resorting to name-calling, and/or consistently misrepresenting and evading counter-arguments, I typically assume the person knows (even if only deep down) that they don't have a good argument. Why should I mimic that behavior when I know my own arguments are sound and when I'm interested in reasoning on things honestly rather than simply being a stubborn ideologue? As for the bit about honey attracting flies and vinegar repelling them, why should that cause me to use 'vinegar'? I'm not trying to push away honest and serious discussion, and, in practice, when you develop a reputation for employing 'vinegar' as a go-to debate tactic, people who really are capable of engaging in honest and serious discussion will be far more likely to avoid you than the 'flies' who are still perfectly content to buzz around your head while spouting their "irrefutable" nonsense.HeKS
November 25, 2014
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Me_think, Yeah, I know what it means... After all, I saw the movie. Plus my best bud is a lawyer. Do you get the joke? Well, evidently not. I'm not the best joke-ster. How old are you? 12? Forgive me.Vishnu
November 25, 2014
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Vishnu Waterlogged ? I am not sure if you know what rainmaker means.Me_Think
November 25, 2014
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Too much rain can make one feel waterloggedVishnu
November 25, 2014
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Vishnu @ 275 Barry knows Keiths is UD's rainmaker. Without keith there is no point in running UD!Me_Think
November 25, 2014
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HeKS:
I’m not sure exactly what you mean.
Using your approach is like attracting flies with honey. You treat them respectfully, you take them seriously, and in return you get what? More flies? I'm thinking we must come from vastly different cultures. Are you familiar with saying “You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar”? You might catch more flies, but it's still a fly.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Look, folks, Keiths's "bomb" is not bomb. Falsified. Over. And over. And over. And over again. Barry, how long will this be going on? Not telling you how to run your show here, but... How much more attention is going to be given to this... whatever you want to call it. Just curious.Vishnu
November 25, 2014
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AR @258
Goodness me. One clue. The naming word for an object, concept or idea usually does not precede the existence of the object etc. Hence “astronaut” was formed from two Ancient Greek words meaning “star sailor” when such a class of persons needed describing.
Ah, finally. I was hoping someone would try to use the "this word isn't designed because it is formed from two previous words". Two points to consider: 1) Neither "Star" nor "Sailor" convey the meaning "Star Sailor". While the parts already existed with different meanings, only intelligent design (a person) could put the two together into a single unit to convey a heretofore unused and unneeded concept - a person who moves among the stars. 2) If we were to accept that joining or modifying existing words to create new words with new meanings didn't indicate design, by analogy combining pre-existing objects to create new objects with new function would also not indicate design - to wit, you could claim that a wheelbarrow was not designed, because after all the wheel, the rod, and the basket already existed. And, fortunately or unfortunately, with that I must leave these boards for awhile. Later all!drc466
November 25, 2014
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HeKS, Would you care to comment on what I wrote in post #161?Box
November 25, 2014
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Mung,
It’s interesting isn’t it, how we treat the critics and skeptics differently and how they treat us differently? Not that the results are any different ;)
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Also, Keith's argument doesn't claim that the designer could have created a trillion different objective nested hierarchies. His argument claims that the designer could have created a trillion different patterns other than an objective nested hierarchy and we have no reason to think he would prefer to create an objective nested hierarchy rather than something else. As I've told him several times now, this argument is entirely wrong-headed (SEE #117). Not that he's actually interacted with what I've said or anything.HeKS
November 25, 2014
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LoL! @ Alicia- unguided evolution doesn't have any entailments. As for ID we have told you what it entails yet you choose to remain willfully ignorant. Why you think that your ignorance refutes ID is the question.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Alicia Renard:
I certainly claim that a group of intelligent people did not one day sit down and invent a language for themselves.
Well, you would be wrong. Humans have invented all sorts of languages and they do it all the time. One of my favorites: Yukihiro Matsumoto ("Matz"), the creator of Ruby, is a professional programmer who worked for the Japanese open source company, netlab.jp. In case you're not hearing me, try: American Sign LanguageMung
November 25, 2014
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HeKS, It's interesting isn't it, how we treat the critics and skeptics differently and how they treat us differently? Not that the results are any different ;)Mung
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
Who designed Spanish?
My Spanish teacher. Rosetta Stone later came up with a better design. Neither one violated the law of ONH.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: Which has more thermodynamic order, a brain or an equal weight of diamonds? Yes.Mung
November 25, 2014
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mung writes:
keiths claims as a significant pillar of his argument that designers can create literally untold numbers (“trillions”) of objective nested hierarchies. What’s his evidence for this claim? How has he supported it? What makes these trillions of imagined nested hierarchies objective?
It's a hard concept to grasp but it involves entailments. Because ID theory amounts to no more than "it's designed, I tells ya", ID "theory" will fit any scenario regarding life's diversity on earth. No entailments - no theory!Alicia Renard
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
Don’t either of you have the slightest curiosity about how the 2LoT really works?
So much for sticking to your "bomb" of an argument. keiths:
Quest, Your question is off-topic. We are discussing my “bomb” argument in this thread.
Some of us are, or are trying to. You're not.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Addressing yet more nonsense from keiths: keiths claims as a significant pillar of his argument that designers can create literally untold numbers ("trillions") of objective nested hierarchies. What's his evidence for this claim? How has he supported it? What makes these trillions of imagined nested hierarchies objective? I am still Mung and Joe is still Joe and keiths still has no argument.Mung
November 25, 2014
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keiths: Speaking of lateral transfers, why do you suppose your designer doesn’t do more of them? Mung: There are numerous elements that are shared across numerous different species. One way to explain them is to assume that they were inherited by common descent. But then it seems rather silly to ask why some designer hasn’t done lateral transfers. For all you know that’s exactly what happened and the assumption of common descent is false. keiths: On the other hand, Mung and Joe are still Joe and Mung, respectively. And keiths still has no argument. Just today ENV posted an example of this very thing that keiths seems to think could never happen:
"It may seem strange to consider the fact that you, as a mammal, have all the known genes required to pattern a feather, and yet you do not look like Big Bird. The reason for this discrepancy," Zimmer insists, "is that genes can do different jobs." This conclusion was derived from scientists looking at the "genetic recipe for feathers written in the DNA of birds." This molecular "cookbook" is apparently very old, and "evolution was tinkering with the same [genetic] toolkit" in developing feathers. - Mission Impossible: Trying to Explain the Feather Without Teleology
Mung
November 25, 2014
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Alicia:
I said “intelligence” is not clearly defined by ID proponents
How do you know? You don't appear to know anything. Intelligence as defined by ID is just the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate nature for some purpose. Why do we think that languages are designed? Because they are artifacts. Nature didn't produce them, that's for sure...Joe
November 25, 2014
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But that’s not really the question I asked, is it?
You asked about "intelligent intervention". According to the UD glossary, intelligence means "capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn". I can't parse a whole lot of sense from your phrase using that definition. Can an intervention be a capacity or have a capacity?Alicia Renard
November 25, 2014
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drs466 writes:
GREAT question! You’re almost there! For unguided evolution, this is a real stumper – does the attraction come before/after the ability to attract? These types of chicken/egg conundrums are in fact one significant argument against evolution. It’s a form of systemic irreducible complexity. For ID and creationism, of course, such a question is a no-brainer. The chirp and the hearing were designed simultaneously in the first crickets.
Bush crickets use sound (their ears are located on their knees) to locate prey and avoid predators, so it seems reasonable to think that sound detection systems precede sound producing systems. ETA "their ears are"Alicia Renard
November 25, 2014
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AR:
Again, are you [wd400] claiming that there was no intelligent intervention in the formation of language?
I certainly claim that a group of intelligent people did not one day sit down and invent a language for themselves.
Good for you. I'd tend to agree. But that's not really the question I asked, is it?Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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