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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
The nested hierarchy just gives us branching descent.
Zachriel continues to conflate the pattern a nested hierarchy can be depicted as with the pattern making the nested hierarchy. He has been doing that for years and just refuses to learn. Why are we feeding this insipid troll?Joe
November 25, 2014
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keith:
This thread was weird enough when I went to sleep last night. Now I awake to find:
That you are still soundly refuted. You can go back to bed now. :razz:Joe
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel:
Z: The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction. We will correct that misstatement. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not allow only chaos and destruction. Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.
The law of gravity does not allow only falling. Everything we see, from an apple falling from a tree to a rocket going to the moon, is perfectly consistent with the law of gravity.Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: No, life does not violate the laws of thermodynamics.
So the 2LoT predicts that in bags of chemicals entropy remains in "balance" - and then a sudden abrupt increase ( at the moment of death) ?
Zachriel: Not even humans with all their intelligence and machines can violate the laws of thermodynamics.
So when a little bag of chemicals develops into an "adult" bag of chemicals - aka human being - and during this process we see a spectacular decrease of entropy (e.g. human brain) - this is consistent with the 2LoT? How do you know? "Humans with all their intelligence and machines" are a violation of the 2LoT,
Isaac Asimov: You can argue, of course, that the phenomenon of life may be an exception [to the second law]. Life on earth has steadily grown more complex, more versatile, more elaborate, more orderly, over the billions of years of the planet’s existence. From no life at all, living molecules were developed, then living cells, then living conglomerates of cells, worms, vertebrates, mammals, finally Man. And in an is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is he most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe. How could the human brain develop out of the primeval slime? How could that vast increase in order (and therefore that vast decrease in entropy) have taken place?
Box
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
d) Box claiming that life violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Only in the same way a rocket going to the moon "violates" the law of gravity.Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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Heks I have to respectfully disagree with you. It's just my opinion, but definitely one that I am sure other readers have felt. Even the title of this thread implies you are having a hard time. The word "Suggests" implies uncertainty and that you don't have anything concrete. Regardless, many many many other people have come and gone that you felt were wrong, yet haven't required this amount of attention for the past few weeks. Had you had a solid argument against him, I think you would be able to keep it simple and lay it down. I also feel the other problem here is too many people are trying to argue the science behind OHN. That is irrelevant. Its irrelevant if there are trillions of possibles or just one or ten. It's irrelevant if OHN is true or not. All you have to take on the philosophical underpinnings to his conclusion. Obviously I believe him to be wrong. I have tried to lay it down quite simply. If a God exists, he would chose a motif to create. That is something even Keith has to agree on. Once that motif is used, we can decipher it. Where Keith is WRONG is his circular logic that God is using a motif to mimic unguided evolution. That is circular logic since we have not proven or can prove that evolution is guided or unguided. That is what is being questioned. In this case with Keith, I don't have to demonstrate WHY God would chose XYZ. All I need to show is where Keith is wrong in his assertion that it IS unguided and why God would want to use something that LOOKS like it is. And since he (or I) don't have another Universe with some other form of evolution to compare it to, his argument falls apart. You can't just compare UE to ID. In order to do that you first have to demonstrate it IS unguided. Only then can you make a comparison against ID. True, I can not prove scientifically that evolution is guided (I know ID disagrees) but the corollary is equally true against Keith. Therefore bringing up the rain fairy and weather is a non sequitar. Weather doesn't do what evolution does. God may or may not decide where it will rain tomorrow. Irrelevant to whether ultimately, evolution is goal oriented and God chose that self-reflecting entity called man would emerge. Also, it seems some people are arguing against evolution theory in general, which ends up spreading this threads out further than they have to be.HD
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel @ 164,
drc466: despite the fact that not a single undisputed common ancestor for any of the relationships between the 30 taxa exists in the fossil record. Species come and go every few million years, so it’s unlikely to find fossils of exact common ancestors from the distant past. Instead, paleontologists predict transitional forms, organisms which exhibit primitive and derived characteristics.
Oh, absolutely - assuming universal common ancestry is true, that would have to be true (although it does seem odd that we can find entire skeletons of dinosaurs that supposedly went extinct 100my ago, but can't find any transitional forms of mammals and marsupials that must have existed much more recently). However, extrapolating transitional forms without fossil evidence rather moves the "tree of life" from empirical to speculative, no? For example - the common ancestor to placentals and marsupials - was it egg-laying? And did the ancestry go egg->placental->marsupial, or egg->marsupial->placental, or egg->placental/egg->marsupial independently? and if independently, did placental/marsupial evolve from the same species, or separate species of egg-laying animals? How many generations of (unknown, speculative) egg-laying species separate the first true marsupial/placental species from their common ancestor? And what kind of (unknown, speculative) reproductive systems existed in the (unknown, speculative) transitional species? I think it was fair to point out that KS' (via Theobald) tree of life is more empty than full; and that saying a statistical analysis of a tree dependent on unknown (and unknowable) true relationships proves unguided evolution is trillions of times more likely than the alternatives, is a bit of a reach.drc466
November 25, 2014
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And I forgot to mention e) drc466 complaining about a reconstructive accuracy of "only" 1 in 10^6; and f) William saying this to Box:
2. Let’s speculate that there are countless ways for the natural environment, over the course of billions of years, to destroy evidence of an ONH, and comparatively few ways to keep it intact – especially given the 2LoT (great addition, Box!).
Great addition, Box! Don't either of you have the slightest curiosity about how the 2LoT really works?keith s
November 25, 2014
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Z: The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction. We will correct that misstatement. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not allow only chaos and destruction. Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Box: Obviously – until the moment of death -, life (the corn field) behaves in defiance of the second law – which should tell you something. No, life does not violate the laws of thermodynamics. Not even humans with all their intelligence and machines can violate the laws of thermodynamics.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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This thread was weird enough when I went to sleep last night. Now I awake to find: a) KF executing the ID triple-dodge, answering a question about the Designer's failure to "laterally transfer" the concept of the gear by 1) ignoring the question about the Designer, 2) talking about Pax6 instead of gears, and 3) talking about exaptation instead of lateral transfer; b) Heartlander linking to a completely irrelevant paper on group theory and architecture, apparently because it contains the phrase "nested hierarchies"; c) Box complimenting WJM on his "razor-sharp mind and analysis", and then d) Box claiming that life violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. On the other hand, Mung and Joe are still Joe and Mung, respectively.keith s
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
Speaking of lateral transfers, why do you suppose your designer doesn’t do more of them?
There are numerous elements that are shared across numerous different species. One way to explain them is to assume that they were inherited by common descent. But then it seems rather silly to ask why some designer hasn't done lateral transfers. For all you know that's exactly what happened and the assumption of common descent is false.Mung
November 25, 2014
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FYI: Group Theory and Architecture, 1: Nested SymmetriesHeartlander
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
Speaking of lateral transfers, why do you suppose your designer doesn’t do more of them?
Which designer?Mung
November 25, 2014
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As ID proponents seem to be struggling to deal with Keith S’s argument that evolutionary theory explains observed facts and evidence by attacking ToE, let me suggest another strategy.
Now that is just rich.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction.
Nonsense:
"The Second Law of Thermodynamics is commonly known as the Law of Increased Entropy. (...) As usable energy decreases and unusable energy increases, "entropy" increases. Entropy is also a gauge of randomness or chaos within a closed system. As usable energy is irretrievably lost, disorganization, randomness and chaos increase.
Zachriel: Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.
Box: Please educate yourself.
Are you saying those processes are not consistent with the laws of thermodynamics?
I didn't specifically comment on those processes. But, clearly you are mistaken. Obviously - until the moment of death -, life (the corn field) behaves in defiance of the second law - which should tell you something.Box
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel:
Box: Now, given the second law of thermodynamics, why would UNF predict anything else but chaos and destruction?
Z: The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction. Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.
Right. And as WJM has pointed out, everything about a rocket flying to the moon is perfectly consistent with the law of gravity. Even so, the law of gravity does not predict rockets flying to the moon. Nor is the law of gravity sufficient to account for a rocket flying to the moon.Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel:
We don’t have to speculate. We have an example. Human artifacts don’t generally form objective nested hierarchies.
This depends on the purpose of the artifact. How many human artifacts are designed to be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth? If humans wanted to make such artifacts, might they generally form objective nested hierarchies?Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics. Box: Please educate yourself. Are you saying those processes are not consistent with the laws of thermodynamics?Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel: The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction.
Please educate yourself.Box
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
Phin: No, no, no. If a designer is responsible, then it is possible that he/she/it decided over and over and over again not to wreck the ONH. It is also (equally?) possible that he/she/it did not have the capability to decide such a thing or was never presented with such a choice, and so, did not decide over and over and over again not to wreck the ONH.
keiths: Either way, how do you explain it?
How do I explain what? That the signal (assuming, for the sake of argument, there is one) is not wrecked? I thought I just did. If it is equally possible that the designer was not presented with the possibility to wreck the signal, or that doing things that would wreck the signal wasn't part of the designer's design, or any number of other possibilities, what is it exactly that I need to explain?
The ONH is predicted by the hypothesis of unguided evolution with gradual change and predominantly vertical inheritance.
Assuming for argument's sake that their is an objective nested heirarchy (and, for me, the arguments that drc466 makes @114 and @163 seem rather damning, and, in my view, have not been adequately addressed), it is only predicted by branching descent with gradual change and predominantly vertical inheritance. The "unguided" part that you've thrown in is superfluous. You've studiously ignored this correction in the past, however, so I'm not expecting anything different here.
ID predicts the opposite: it is 99.999…% likely that we won’t see an ONH if ID is operating.
This is 99.999...% baloney. And that's being generous. You can only get to this conclusion by assuming things about a designer that you've said we know absolutely nothing about. All the assumptions you make about the designer (and you make lots of them) are unsupported. Nor are they balanced by the assumptions you make about evolution. On both sides, you make assumptions that skew your argument in a way that leads inevitably to your desired conclusion. While I don't doubt that this is very convenient, you must understand that no one else is obligated by reason or conscience to accept your assumptions.
You need to come up with a trillions-to-one persuasive reason for thinking that the designer would choose (or be limited to) the ONH motif.
Really, I don't. Even if the trillions-to-one claim were not completely unsupported, the argument for ID does not rest at all on disproving an ONH. (And you've still got some work to do to demonstrate that it is "objective" as claimed.) An ONH is not one of the many hallmarks of design that ID puts forward. No one in ID is claiming that, given the proper initial conditions, natural forces are incapable of producing an ONH. No one in ID is claiming anything at all about the designer, and certainly not that the designer did or did not produce the ONH directly. There is, literally, nothing in your argument that is in any way compelling or challenging to ID. Rather, it is with your numerous faulty assumptions that ID disagrees.
Otherwise unguided evolution is the far better choice.
You really need to get this. Before you can even begin to persuade that unguided evolution is the far better choice based on the ONH, you need to demonstrate that the branching descent responsible for the ONH (if it exists) is, in fact, unguided. Can you do this?Phinehas
November 25, 2014
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William J. Murray: Reiteration doesn’t move any argument forward. We made explicit what was obvious though implicit in our previous answers.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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William J. Murray: 1. Let’s speculate that there are countless ways for a designer to trash an ONH signal, but very few ways, comparatively, to keep it intact. As keith said, it’s easy to trash the ONH signal. A designer would have to stay on his toes to keep it intact. We don't have to speculate. We have an example. Human artifacts don't generally form objective nested hierarchies. Box: Now, given the second law of thermodynamics, why would UNF predict anything else but chaos and destruction? The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not predict chaos or destruction. Everything we see, from sunlight to corn growing in the field, is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics. William J. Murray: 2. Let’s speculate that there are countless ways for the natural environment, over the course of billions of years, to destroy evidence of an ONH, and comparatively few ways to keep it intact – especially given the 2LoT (great addition, Box!). That would be contrary to the evidence. The mechanisms of evolution we observe are consistent with evolution over long periods.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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Zachriel @173, Reiteration doesn't move any argument forward.William J Murray
November 25, 2014
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Lets do some rampant speculation here and see what happens. 1. Let's speculate that there are countless ways for a designer to trash an ONH signal, but very few ways, comparatively, to keep it intact. As keith said, it's easy to trash the ONH signal. A designer would have to stay on his toes to keep it intact. 2. Let's speculate that there are countless ways for the natural environment, over the course of billions of years, to destroy evidence of an ONH, and comparatively few ways to keep it intact - especially given the 2LoT (great addition, Box!). Which becomes the better explanation? That over billions of years the natural environment just happened to conspire to keep the ONH evidence intact, or that a designer deliberately kept the ONH evidence intact? Hmmm.William J Murray
November 25, 2014
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William J. Murray: I don’t see how any of what you say is remotely responsive to my question. William J. Murray: Since the posited designer lies outside of and/or prior to the evolutionary system, wouldn’t you also have to say that external or prior unliving natural and chance forces would also have to be significantly limited in order to not wreck the ONH signal over billions of years? Limited, yes. The nested hierarchy just gives us branching descent. We would then look for evidence of the branching process. For instance, are there gradations between species, are there mechanisms of reproductive isolation, and so on. Then we would look for evidence of the changes that have apparently occurred over time, variations within species, sources of novel variation, rates of change over geological timescales, and so on. All of this is subject to investigation, and evolutionary biologists have spent generations studying these mechanisms. There’s no evidence of involvement by an outside agent. William J. Murray: Again, unresponsive. William J. Murray: abiogenesis and evolution {are causally related}. Yes, they are. Actually, more precisely in light of the discussion, the origin of life and evolution. And evolutionary biologists have used every tool at their disposal to understand the early history of life, and its origin; while IDers claim not to have to bother. William J. Murray: Until you can identify abiogenesis, you are just waving your hands and making assumptions, yet investigation into what abiogenesis supposedly wrought – Darwinistic evolution – continues regardless of the lack of abiogenesis identification. We have strong evidence that evolution is a natural process. Investigations of the early history of life have only added support to this conclusion. We have no reasonable evidence of design, and investigations of the designer are said to be irrelevant.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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William J. Murray: For example, take this crop circle: Let’s say we have no idea who or what made it or how, and that we never find out. Just from what you have provided, it looks like something humans would do. We know they are in the area because you indicated it was a design carved into crops. We'll conjecture a guess that it was found on Earth, that there are humans in the vicinity, and that they have the primitive technology necessary. Those simians! Always playing tricks on one another. William J. Murray: Or, lets say we visit an otherwise unremarkable planet in the future where no humans have been known to have visited and the only thing we find of significance is this pattern: Why it looks like something humans would do! Something like humans in many respects most likely. That is, an organic creature that evolved on a rock with liquid water revolving around a star. Or perhaps one of their robot proxies. William J. Murray: thousands of man hours and spend tens of millions of dollars research into figuring out what combination of natural forces and chance could plausibly produce that design? An effort spent looking for evidence of an intelligent entity with a physical presence would not be out of the ordinary, and may very well bear fruit. The fundamental difference between ID and this situation is that the former doesn't posit a designer with entailments.Zachriel
November 25, 2014
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WJM asks:
Since the posited designer lies outside of and/or prior to the evolutionary system, wouldn’t you also have to say that external or prior unliving natural and chance forces would also have to be significantly limited in order to not wreck the ONH signal over billions of years?
Zachriel responded:
The nested hierarchy just gives us branching descent. We would then look for ....
I don't see how any of what you say is remotely responsive to my question.
Sure, and evolutionary biologists have used every tool at their disposal to understand the early history of life, and its origin.
Again, unresponsive. If we're not going to take design theory seriously because haven't identified the designer, we shouldn't take Darwinistic evolutionary theory seriuosly until we have identified abiogenesis.
No. It doesn’t work that way. Life began on Earth. That’s a reasonable supposition. There are reasons to believe that it was a natural result of conditions on the primordial Earth, but it is certainly subject to investigation, and is being investigated.
Until you can identify abiogenesis, you are just waving your hands and making assumptions, yet investigation into what abiogenesis supposedly wrought - Darwinistic evolution - continues regardless of the lack of abiogenesis identification. I'm afraid you're trying to have it both ways. You want clearance to speculate from general naturalistic principles on the one hand without specifics as to how abiogenesis was achieved that would outline evolutionary entailments after abiogenesis, but deny speculation from general design principles without specifics about designer-generated abiogenesis that would provide entailments.William J Murray
November 25, 2014
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WJM: If you bring in something outside of the evolutionary system on one side like a designer, the same must be allowed on the other side – like unliving natural forces.
Again I compliment William for his razor-sharp mind and analysis. Let me try to build on it a bit more here.
Keith: How many times do I have to repeat this? I compare both UE and ID starting after OOL.
That trick won’t help you Keith. First, let’s reduce UE (unguided evolution) to ‘unliving natural forces’ (UNF). Now, given the second law of thermodynamics, why would UNF predict anything else but chaos and destruction? The continued balancing act of an organism – homeostasis - is something that UNF cannot explain or predict. There are trillions of chemical reactions going on in each and every organism. If UNF predicts one thing it is certainly not ONH, but the falling apart of each and every organism instead.Box
November 25, 2014
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If you hypothesize something is an artifact, then the evidence for the art and artisan become crucial to your claim.
No, it doesn't. Even if we never find out who or what designed an object or how they instantiated it, that doesn't mean that we cannot be relatively certain it was in fact designed by an intelligent agency. For example, take this crop circle: http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608022800880045666&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0 Let's say we have no idea who or what made it or how, and that we never find out. Does that mean we should start looking for natural causes? Or, lets say we visit an otherwise unremarkable planet in the future where no humans have been known to have visited and the only thing we find of significance is this pattern: http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608035745923665233&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0 etched into a flat granite terrain that can be viewed from space. Should we start looking for a natural explanation? If we never find out who or what made it or how, should it be considered a naturally occurring phenomena by default, and should we spend decades of time, thousands of man hours and spend tens of millions of dollars research into figuring out what combination of natural forces and chance could plausibly produce that design? Or do you think the better way forward is to try and decode the design to see if it might have some kind of coded meaning contained in its pattern that might be interpretable if we can find what it might relate to?William J Murray
November 25, 2014
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