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Hitler as a Darwinist?: Prof accused of academic dishonesty

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Recently, several people have generously devoted considerable time to padding the comments section of the Post-Darwinist on the question of whether Hitler was a creationist or a Darwinist. Now, one recent commenter, Mitchell Coffey, went over the top, accusing Cal State prof Richard Weikart, author of From Darwin to Hitler, of being dishonest.

Critiquing my position, he scolds, in part:

This is to be expected if you rely on the immorality of dishonest academics like Richard Weikart. Most of his assertions about Darwin’s beliefs are contradicted by the historical sources — often by the historical sources he himself cites for support! In one case, he out-and-out lies about what he calls Darwin’s “system.”

But if you want to see a straight-out lie by Prof. Weikart, locate his one quote from H.G. Wells. Weikart makes extravagant claims about the significance of the quote, which Weikart wants you to believe meant that Wells believed in killing off “inferior” races.

Weikart, who is fluent in German, replies,

Mitchell Coffey’s claim that I engaged in academic dishonesty is patently ridiculous.

I should note that my overall argument in no way depends on the Wells’ quotation, since the vast majority of my book is about German thinkers, and most of my quotations are from primary sources, unlike the Wells quote, which I provided to show that Germans weren’t the only ones advocating racial extermination. If anyone can show that my primary source quotations are wrenched out of context, this would be troubling indeed. To date, no one has raised such a criticism, despite many reviews by historians in historical journals.

(The question hinged on how to interpret another scholar’sview of Wells.)

To me, the really interesting aspect of this whole exchange is why it should matter so much to some people whether Hitler was a Darwinist, a creationist, or something else. After all, what if Pol Pot was a Darwinist and Idi Amin a creationist? Do we think the better or the worse of mass murderers on such an account? So I asked Weikart for some thoughts, as he deals frequently with such attacks.

His reply was interesting:

The reason why people care about Hitler being a Darwinist was because his version of Darwinism influenced his murderous ideology. It wasn’t incidental to his mass murder, as it might be in the other cases you mentioned. Darwinists have to distance themselves from his social Darwinist views, so they campaign against it as against heresy. Also, it’s remarkable how many websites run by atheists and anti-religious people prominently feature articles about Hitler being a Christian, and they blame Christianity for Hitler and the Holocaust.

It’s also remarkable that many Darwinists idolize Darwin so much that they cannot come to admit that he was a social Darwinist (though many scholars, to their credit, have conceded this).

Hmmm. I have often suggested that Darwinism would repay study by social scientists. It does come with a worldview, including a number of positions on hotly contested but apparently unrelated topics. For example, I would like to hear from a single serious Darwinist who disapproves of stem cell research on discarded human embryos on ethical grounds. It is easy to find non-Darwinists who disapprove such things.

Comments
"Christian anti-semitism" is very slightly misleading, because anti-semitism can come in different flavors and with different causes. In the 19th century, religiously motivated anti-semitism became ("evolved"?) into a combination of religious and nationalistic anti-semitism. The Dreyfus Affair in France, for example, was motivated by the thought that a Jew could not be a good French citizen, and so must have been a traitor -- but one of the hallmarks of being a good French citizen is that one is Catholic. So religion and nationality feed back into one another. The same could be said for Germany, where discussions of "the Jewish problem" go back to the early 19th century, at least. "The Jewish problem" was a problem both for Jews and for Germans. For Jews, the problem was how to enter into mainstream society without abandoning traditional Jewish identity; for Germans, the problem was how to permit the Jews into mainstream society without abandoning traditional German identity.Carlos
September 18, 2006
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It certainly seems like a mistake to ignore the long history of Christian anti-semitism in Europe as a major contributing factor to the Holocaust. It's not like "getting rid of the Jews" was an original idea for Hitler.improvius
September 18, 2006
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Filmgrain I’m afraid you really don’t know enough about how businesses and markets work to understand my response. Microsoft and Intel are virtual monopolies. They don’t really operate by satisfying customers as much as they operate by limiting customer choices through ruthless elimination of the competition. Both are constant targets of anti-trust watchdogs. You fail to understand that gold is an unbranded commodity and make up stories about how gold mines sell gold directly to craftsmen making jewelry. That isn’t how gold mines sell gold and is as ridiculous as saying that oil wells sell oil directly to consumers. To help you understand what an unbranded commodity is - take any piece of gold jewelry you or someone you know has and tell me what mine the gold came from. If the gold was branded you could tell me. The fact of the matter is that gold isn't branded, you can't tell me what mine it came from, and the most relevant bit is NO ONE CARES what mine it came from because gold is gold is gold.DaveScot
September 17, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: “Ah. Like Microsoft and Intel. Got it.” Yes, precisely like Microsoft and Intel. (The notion that Microsoft does NOT satisfy consumer demand is more than just a bit absurd.) I invite you to demonstrate how Microsoft, Intel, Coca-Cola, IBM, or any other company can prosper if people don’t buy their product; and then to demonstrate why people would buy their product if it didn't satisfy their demand for it. I’m sure that all those corporations and small businesses that go out of business every year for precisely that reason would be very interested. “Seriously now. While satisfying customers is usually an important thing it isn’t the core of capitalism. The survivors are the ones that provide a superior return on invested capital.” Good grief, all those investors willing to sink their capital in a risky investment (and it must be risky if they want a high return) are obviously fools. Imagine a venture capital group investing a billion dollars in a new company called “Microsoft” or “Intel” or “ABC Gold Mining” after attending a road show by the young, cocky CEO, who (along with the investment bankers) shows them his business plan and says “Guys, I promise that if you give me a billion dollars, I’ll return that investment a hundred-fold…but no one is actually going to buy our product.” Seriously now. A group of economists that included Carl Menger, Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk, Ludwig von Mises, and others, were the first to point the highly structured nature of capitalism (given, of course, the prior existence of rule of law, individual rights, property rights, etc.). The free market is the exact opposite of an “anarchy of production” as asserted by Marx. These economists demonstrated that it was, in fact, non-market forces – usually in the form of government regulation or government privilege – that cause distortion in market information and, therefore, dislocation of capital and labor. The economy of the former Soviet Union, for example, was truly an anarchy of production since, without private property, there was no meaningful exchange; without meaningful exchange, there were no meaningful prices; without meaningful prices, there was no way to determine which things were highly valued by consumers and which were not. Hence, the constant shortages of essential goods (“essential” meaning “highly valued by consumers”) combined with gluts of things nobody wanted. “A company that owns a gold mine doesn’t satisfy customers at all - it sells an unbranded commodity at current market rate” A gold mine sells ITS gold – which is the brand – to middlemen who create jewelry, coins, ingots, electrical conductors, etc., all of which compete with one another to satisfy buyers of these things. Not only that. Consumer demand for gold jewelry actually helps to determine the price of OTHER consumer gold items, such as coins, gold teeth, etc. Demand determines everything. It is the expected future demand for wine that determines the price of wine and the demand for grapes; which determines the price of grapes and the demand for vinyards; which determines the price of vinyards and the demand for grape pickers; which ultimately determines their wages. This is a system based on and presupposing the reality of "final causation," i.e., of teleology: consumers are goal-oriented, and because of that, producers are, too. But we’ve strayed from the original point of this thread.filmGrain
September 16, 2006
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What one does here is consider the arguments and evidence presented by both sides, as fairly as one can (taking into account the biases and limitations of human reason). But that is a philosophical debate not a scientific one. In a scientific one, the biologist would say "This is true because if I do this this will happen everytime. Watch. Do you want to see it again?" The one who kills or rapes is refusing that call, because God calls to us through the face of the other person Exactly!! :-)tribune7
September 16, 2006
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(83) No, I’m expressing your commitments too. You are bound by the same universal law. You may not rob, kill and rape even if you should just declare it ethical. Here's what I was trying to get at. Suppose a secular professor of biology says "NDE is true!" And an ID advocate says, "No, it isn't; ID is true!" What one does here is consider the arguments and evidence presented by both sides, as fairly as one can (taking into account the biases and limitations of human reason). And then one decides, and takes a stand, one way or the other. But no one put a gun to your head. And both the biologist and the design theorist will say, "here's why you should listen to me and not the other guy!" So it's on you, it's your intellectual responsibility, to decide where you stand, based on your considered views. And in doing so, you put yourself in "the space of reasons": now you're responsible for defending the views and beliefs that you've adopted, and you're responsible for responding to criticisms of those beliefs. And so on. What I'm saying here is that morality is just like this: the asking for and giving of reasons for one's beliefs and actions. In ethics, as in science, one adopts a stance and is responsible for it. There's no passing the buck. There's no "God put a gun to my head!" God doesn't coerce, doesn't threaten, doesn't demand. That is a demonic god, a sovereign. But God is not a sovereign. God is an unconditional call, and it is on us, on our responsibility, whether to respond to that call or not. The one who kills or rapes is refusing that call, because God calls to us through the face of the other person -- the face that says, whether spoken or not, "do not kill me! I am also a person! See me!" It is because the one who kills or rapes doesn't respond to the call that we can hold him or her responsible for his or her actions. (Except in those extremely rare cases where he or she is incapable of responding to the call of the face of the other, whether due to genetic difficulties or due to inadequate psycho-social development. But even in those cases, we have the right to protect ourselves from such persons.)Carlos
September 16, 2006
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Carlos -- When you say, “there is universal law which is binding whether acknowledged or not,” this is a specific way of expressing your commitments, No, I'm expressing your commitments too. You are bound by the same universal law. You may not rob, kill and rape even if you should just declare it ethical. I was speaking of Nietzsche, who wrote in the 1870s and 1880s. And what he prophesized happened. When a society reached the point where Darwin was accepted as the authority about right and wrong over the Bible, you ended up with Nazi Germany. Even in America, Darwinism was responsible for great evil -- forced sterilizations, the Tuskeegee Experiment etc. -- although it never entirely held the field as it did in Germany.tribune7
September 16, 2006
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Carlos you wrote:
I disagree. Hitler did what he did because he was accepted the Theosophist doctrine of “root races,” that there were only two pure races — Jews and Aryans — and that it was necessary to destroy the Jews in order to restore humanity to its Aryan purity. This is pure Manichaean/Gnostic dualism, “people of light” vs. “people of darkness.” Try to find this in The Descent of Man. Or The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (Gould)? Heck, is it in The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins) or Darwin’s Dangerous Idea (Dennett)?
To blame theosophy for nazi ideology is inaccurate. Theosophy and it's spinoffs were very popular amongst the upper classes, nazi beliefs included some aspects of theosophy but rejected others. Your idea about there being only "two pure races" in those beliefs is in error. Semetic people were seen as offshoots of aryans, many other "races" are considered to be lower then semetic people and similar to animals. Theosophy did not teach it was necessary to destroy the jews. Where we do find these ideas is from the eugenicists who believed that they were aiding evolution because human progress was harming natural evolution and the future of human society. This had it's earliest roots in Thomas Malthus. The idea (a thought experiment by Malthus) was that there is not enough natural resources to provide for humanity over time because human population was growing exponentially. Therefore the solution was to cut the population down. He suggested that instead of helping the needy the opposite should be done, they should be actively done away with. Malthusisan ideas became a central plank in Darwins theories and also a major preoccupation with the western elites. Many of them came to believe that medicine for the needy, charity, or helping the poor in anyway, was only going to increase the destruction of society based on Malthusian precepts. They wanted to kill off the needy, not help them. At the same time Darwinism was giving them a "scientific" vision of "survival of the fittest" as natures way of evolving the species. These two ideas combined into social darwinism and eugenics. It was from the leading spokesmen from these groups where Blavatsky and others got their ideas of evolving root races. Theosophy did not invent anything other then a mythology to accompnay the popular science of the day, this was because Blavatsky and others were trying to appear as if their made up doctrines were based on accepted scientific reality. See "Influence of Malthus and Darwin on the European Elite" at http://www.trufax.org/avoid/manifold.html The nazis were directly educated and funded by the eugenics movement in America and Britain, see http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/mentok
September 16, 2006
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tinabrewer Technically there's nothing hypocritical. Any meat I eat is already dead, butchered, and offered for sale to the general public. I took no position about it being bad or good to EAT meat. The G12 and many vegetarians stake out the claim that meat poisons the body which I don't believe at all. The position I took was entirely about killing. One can make a point that by purchasing the product I've contributed in some measurable way to the profit of an industry that kills. In this case it's a diminishingly small way and my abstinence wouldn't change it. I have no objection in principle to eating animals that died of natural causes which is something still prohibited by the G12 and most vegetarians I know. If you keep chickens for the eggs or goats for the milk - everything dies eventually and why should the body be wasted when the inevitable happens?DaveScot
September 16, 2006
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Carlos I disagree. Hitler did what he did because he was accepted the Theosophist doctrine of “root races,” that there were only two pure races — Jews and Aryans — and that it was necessary to destroy the Jews in order to restore humanity to its Aryan purity. This is pure Manichaean/Gnostic dualism, “people of light” vs. “people of darkness.” Try to find this in The Descent of Man. Or The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (Gould)? Heck, is it in The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins) or Darwin’s Dangerous Idea (Dennett)? Why don't we look for it instead in Darwin's writings. Let's try "The Origin of Species by Natural Selection". First of all, let's look at the subtitle: "or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". There, I think we've read enough in just the subtitle. Any questions?DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Filmgrain “Fitness” under capitalism is not simply those that survive but those that satisfy consumer demand; Ah. Like Microsoft and Intel. Got it. It isn't the companies that satisfy their shareholders. It's the ones who satisfy their customers. Seriously now. While satisfying customers is usually an important thing it isn't the core of capitalism. The survivors are the ones that provide a superior return on invested capital. A company that owns a gold mine doesn't satisfy customers at all - it sells an unbranded commodity at current market rate - and it may or may not outcompete the mining operation on the next claim over. The only thing that matters is making enough profit for the owners to keep their capital invested in it instead of pulling out and investing somewhere else.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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"The answer is these laws protect animals incidentally to the promotion of human morality." That is illogical. If there is no reason not to be cruel to animals, then in what way can that have any thing whatsoever to do with human morality? Dave, I also eat meat, but it bothers me quite a lot to know that our animals are treated so badly, like inaminate objects rather than as animate beings, just because they are destined for slaughter or as milk makers. We have humane treatment laws, but they don't really extend to "livestock." Therefore, I try to buy grass fed beef and free range eggs. Unfortunately, most people don't know how badly milk cows are treated. But I buy my milk from a (religious) family farm, which has become illegal to do in my state. Many tribal, hunter-gatherer peoples, all of whom ate meat, loved and respected animals, and were humble and grateful to receive their lives. So it is possible. I am not sure what the right answer is.avocationist
September 15, 2006
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Way to go Dave Scott 43!! No - way to go Dave Scot 45. Barry - the Eastern Orthodox church, which I think is the oldest and most venerable, does not teach the doctrine of atonement in which we are given a pass into heaven because, as Billy Graham put it, "God demanded a death." Taciturnus, why would a guy who said: "In order that the happiness of the saints will be more delightful ... they are permitted perfectly to behold the sufferings of the damned. ... The saints will rejoice in the punishment of the damned ... Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed, while the pains of the damned will cause it indirectly..." be anyone's favorite saint?avocationist
September 15, 2006
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Why would you discount Professor Weikart’s book? Because I'm not convinced that it's right; because it doesn't jive with other things I believe, on the basis of authorities I consider thoughtful. That illustrates the point I’m making. If ethics are simply what man acknowledges then any act is justifiable. If there is a universal law, however, it is binding whether it is ackowledged or not. I'm not so sure you can side-step the reflective moment of the argument. When you say, "there is universal law which is binding whether acknowledged or not," this is a specific way of expressing your commitments, which is to say, you are acknowledging that you are so bound. But it is nevertheless possible for you to be not bound in this way, if you were to take up a different -- perhaps radically different -- social identity, i.e. if you were to undergo a "loss of faith." You would become a different person, with a different form of life. The fact of cultural pluralism itself tells you that there are many different ways in which a community can be organized, and many different ethical codes whereby behavior is coordinated. This is precisely what leads to fundamental moral disagreements between members of different societies and between members of different cultures within a society. Now, that fact does not, by itself, show that moral relativism is true (or false). (In fact I think that moral relativism is false, but I don't claim to have shown that it is.) In some sense, I suppose, I think of ethics as like a marriage. One is married if one says one is, if one makes a commitment to another person and publically acknowledges that commitment. On the other hand, ethics is unconditional, whereas a marriage could be dissolved. So perhaps ethics is like a marriage one cannot get out of. But it is nevertheless something that is also assented to, freely -- not compelled, not forced. We are free, we have dignity, we are not slaves to any master or to any sovereign. (Nor to God -- because God is not a sovereign.) Carlos, they did not maintain the old code. They justified the invasion of Russia and the murder of 12 million Jews, Gypsys and Slavs. I was speaking of Nietzsche, who wrote in the 1870s and 1880s. At that time, he was concerned about a European culture that insisted on telling a different metaphysical story -- a Darwinist and Hegelian one -- in justification of the same old ethical standards. We're talking Bismarck's Germany and Victoria's England. The mass murder you mention happened sixty years later, under a different political organization and very different moral and spiritual climate. And before we start wandering down the Nietzsche-Hitler road, believe me, I've been there and done that.Carlos
September 15, 2006
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Some future version of ID theory could come along So what exactly would you say that would require? I disagree. Hitler did what he did because he was accepted the Theosophist doctrine of “root races,” Why would you discount Professor Weikart's book? These norms can be teleological (as in virtue ethics) or not, but it is the acknowledgment of the norm as binding that makes it binding. That illustrates the point I'm making. If ethics are simply what man acknowledges then any act is justifiable. If there is a universal law, however, it is binding whether it is ackowledged or not. I regard rights as inventions that protect us from the abuse of power. And you are wrong. If they are mere "inventions" they are not much protection. If they are an an aspect of this universal law, however, a state that recognizes this will be a happy one. As I wrote, it became clear to me that Nietzsche thought that the ethical story and the metaphysical story stood or fell together. He thought that Darwinism showed that the metaphysical story was false. Exactly. The consequence, however, was that people continued to maintain the old ethical code — only they no longer knew why. Carlos, they did not main they maintain the old code. They justified the invasion of Russia and the murder of 12 million Jews, Gypsys and Slavs.tribune7
September 15, 2006
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“Thus, anti-Jewish feelings and convictions had to be inculcated in every German and, beyond that, in every person anywhere in the world. This end, the Nazis knew in their German deference to scholarship, could be effected only through science. The scheme was simple and yet fascinating. The law of nature concerning ‘the survival of the fittest’ should be presented so as to admit no exceptions. The unfit is doomed to Ausmerze (extinction) and if he does not go voluntarily, he must be helped out of existence. This law of nature would be, the, made to apply also to groups or, in a more mystical term, to races; and in the order of fitness the Jews would appear as the lowest group predestined for Ausmerze, while the top folk of the Germans would emerge as the crown of creation. In the Thirties, selection (Auslese) and extinction (Ausmerze) are the pivots of the racial doctrines that dominate German political and intellectual life. In the Forties, Ausmerze is used, as we shall see, to designate and, with the air of scientific authority about it, to sanction the annihilation of the Jewish people all over Europe. The concept had not been developed in vain. ...[W]e may now turn to Dr. Ernst Rudin, for many years Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Munich. He not only served Nazism with his pen by contributing to and editing a two-volume work on ‘Genetics and Eugenics in the Folk State” and several smaller books but also actively participated in preparing German racial legislation…Rudin’s name appears together with two others on a rather early commentary on German eugenic legislation intended primarily for physicians [Arthur Gutt, M.D. and Falk Ruttke, doctor of jurisprudence and author of the Nuremberg Laws]. The leading ideas of the authors were expressed in the introduction to the volume: ‘Our whole cultural life for decades has been more or less under the influence of biological thinking, as it was begun particularly around the middle of the last century, by the teachings of Darwin, Mendel, and Galton…. Though it took decades before the courage was found on the basis of the initial findings of the natural sciences, to carry on a systematic study of heredity, the progress of the teaching and its application to man could not be delayed any more. It was discovered that the natural laws discovered for plants and animals ought also to be valid for man, and this could fully and completely be confirmed during the last three decades both through family research and through the study of bastards and twins.’ One of the Nazi leaders, Hans Schemm, who until his death in 1937 was a Bavarian cabinet member, aptly epitomized the situation by stating: ‘national socialism is applied biology.’” ["Hitler’s Professors - The Part of Scholarship in Germany’s Crimes Against The Jewish People" by Max Weinreich. Yiddish Scientific Institute – YIVO, 1946]filmGrain
September 15, 2006
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Tina, As I approach the question, it's not "are we more than molecules?" but "are we more in a molecules in a different way than that in which molecules are more than quarks and electrons?" If you'd like, I can explain my attitude towards Platonism -- and towards Plato -- later on. But I'm logging off for the night.Carlos
September 15, 2006
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Carlos: I've just gotta say it now...what is so bad about Plato?!? :) You seem to have a mind which is positively bent upon making what is simple complex, what is clear fuzzy, and what is obvious obfuscated. Why? (I say this with all due respect) Lighten up! Maybe we really DO have something other than molecules, maybe not. BUt heck, everything makes a helluva lot more sense if we do, so do you ever give yourself the freedom to just GO with that thought, wherever it might lead? Just wondering. why. you. are. against...Plato... :)tinabrewer
September 15, 2006
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uh oh. I was starting to get really taken in by your passionate commitment to animals, Dave, until you confessed to your hypocrisy. I actually don't think that eating meat and loving animals for their own sake is intrinsically hypocritical. There has been a significant movement in this country and elsewhere to begin cultivating animals for their meat in a more humane manner (pasture fed beef, cage-free chickens, etc.) It seems there is a clear distinction in nature between wanton murder and killing humanely with the intent to eat what is taken, something which can be done without spiritual detriment, IMO.tinabrewer
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: "If the shoe fits, wear it." Reply: So I guess you don't wear leather shoes, Dave? ;-)Robo
September 15, 2006
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(47)Says evolutionary dogmatists who treat evolution as a religious tenet rather than a possibility. I'm not saying that a good argument for ID is impossible. Some future version of ID theory could come along and blow the entire post-Darwinian research program out of the water, and we'll say, "how stupid not to have thought of it before!" All I'm saying is that time is not yet. Now you are completing a circle. Was Hitler a Darwinist? Yes, basically. Why did he do what the did? Because he felt it was right. Why did he feel it was right? Because he concluded that some types of men were no different than animals. Why did he do this? Because of the influence of Darwin, as has been established. I disagree. Hitler did what he did because he was accepted the Theosophist doctrine of "root races," that there were only two pure races -- Jews and Aryans -- and that it was necessary to destroy the Jews in order to restore humanity to its Aryan purity. This is pure Manichaean/Gnostic dualism, "people of light" vs. "people of darkness." Try to find this in The Descent of Man. Or The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (Gould)? Heck, is it in The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins) or Darwin's Dangerous Idea (Dennett)? Here's the point: Hitler was not drawing an inference from Darwinism. He was not, so far as I can tell, even capable of drawing an inference at all. His was not a rational mind, and Nazism was not an intellectual project. He was an utterly deranged person who successfully converted an entire country to his peculiar madness -- to the point where war without end seemed just dandy. It is not only individuals who can go mad. Societies can, too. The whole talk of a Darwinian "influence" on Hitler is too vague. Was it an "influence" on him? Sure. And schizophrenics who are influenced by Christian imagery have visions of angels and devils. So what? He was utterly mad, yet (in his own way) quite brilliant, able to captivate huge audiences and send them into a quasi-hypnotic trance. How does natural selection justify “might makes right”? If the goal is to love God and neighbor, a particular series of actions is justified. If the goal is for the fittest to survive, a different set of actions is justified. This claim rests on an equivocation between two sense of "goal." The 'goal' of a biological system is the regularity it requires in order to maintain its form as matter and energy are transmitted through it. The goal of a plant is to attain a proper balance of sunlight, water, air, and minerals, to photosynthesize and respire, to reproduce, etc. The 'goal' of an ethical system is the norm accepted and acknowledged by the people on whom that system is binding. These norms can be teleological (as in virtue ethics) or not, but it is the acknowledgment of the norm as binding that makes it binding. In the vast majority of cases, if not all, the acknowledgment is social (there no private moral codes, for the same reason that there are no private languages) and mediated through symbols, stories, or (sometimes) theories. The two cases are very different. Now, it's an open question -- and a very interesting one! -- whether one could provide an account of discursive norms (ethical, scientific, political, etc.) in terms of biological regularities. For a long time I felt convinced that one could. Now I'm not so sure. They're looking more and more like apples and oranges, the harder I look. The problem is not the “anarchy” but the absolutes imposed by the people with the guns. Is your concern here that if Darwin is right, we won't have anything to say in defense when the fascists come to take us away? Quick quiz: Where do our rights come from? Do they need to come from anywhere? I regard rights as inventions that protect us from the abuse of power. Of course, the first theorists of rights held that rights were given to us by God. And given their metaphysical beliefs, that made perfect rational sense. Now, are there any inalienable rights? There are inalienable rights wherever there is inequality, or in a word, where ever there is sovereignty. And sovereignty has been with us for a long time. But there was a time when there were no sovereigns, presidents, lords, kings, or chieftains -- and in that time, there were neither rights nor a need for them. That's one thing that the social contract theorists got right. I've been saying, more or less consistently, that I don't think that the ethical and political system suddenly collapses when the metaphysical buttress is removed. Here's a little story that may help clarify where I'm coming from here. A few years ago, I wrote a doctoral thesis on Nietzsche. One of the things that interested me was the influence of Darwinism on Nietzsche. As I wrote, it became clear to me that Nietzsche thought that the ethical story and the metaphysical story stood or fell together. He thought that Darwinism showed that the metaphysical story was false. The consequence, however, was that people continued to maintain the old ethical code -- only they no longer knew why. Nietzsche wanted to show that the ethics only makes sense in relation to the metaphysics, so if the latter is rubbish, so too is the former. Nietzsche's mistake was twofold: to think that the only interpretation which could be given of social norms like rationality, equality, justice was the Platonic interpretation, and to think that the only alternative to Plato was Homer. He didn't see that alternative interpretations of these social norms were possible, and in part that's because he didn't clearly see the difference between the interpretations and the norms themselves. I ascribe this to the absence of a sense of society, of the reality of other people, in Nietzsche's thinking; his loneliness introduced fundamental distortions into his philosophy. What I've tried to do since then is tease out and reconstruct the various post-Nietzschean philosophers who accept his criticism of the Platonic interpretation of ethical and conceptual norms, but who try to provide an alternative interpretation. (The Girondists to Nietzsche's Jacobin, if you will. Or perhaps Nietzsche is Robespierre. Anyway . . . ) I know I'm probably not going to win over any hearts or minds in this venue, and I'm not trying to. All I want to do is indicate that the problem-space to be explored -- the implications of science for culture, and vice-versa -- is a lot bigger and more interesting than some of us here may have otherwise thought.Carlos
September 15, 2006
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From Carlos in Comment 41... Carlos wrote: "I’m sorry to come across so strong, but I find this absurd. Do you really think that it follows from natural selection that might makes right? How?" Rob replies: "Perhaps 'might makes right' cannot be proven to be from Darwin. But Darwinism (if true) certainly proves that 'might makes right' is not wrong.Robo
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: "Capitalism is an economic system based on Darwinian principles. It isn’t always a bad thing. I can’t blame Nazi eugenics entirely on Darwin. The observation that superior parents tend to produce superior offspring is ancient and that is the principle behind the science of eugenics." It all depends on how you define “superior”. In the case of Nazism, “superior” meant little more than “blond hair, blue eyes.” Capitalism is a system based on social cooperation through division of labor; rule of law; individual rights; right of private ownership (including ownership of the means of production). While it’s easy to claim that the element of competition is inherently “Darwinist”, it’s important to note the significant differences. First of all, most of ID persons would agree that Natural Selection is almost always defined in such a way as to be a tautology: those who survive are defined as “fit” and those that are “fit” survive. This, by the way, was even admitted to be so by C. H. Waddington, a renowned Darwinist.* It’s a tautology because there doesn’t seem to be an independent criterion for “fitness.” Not so, however, for capitalism. “Fitness” under capitalism is not simply those that survive but those that satisfy consumer demand; a state that may lead to survival but need not (unlike the purely necessary connection between “fitness” and “survival” in Darwinism). Additionally, capitalist economics assumes from the outset a teleological cause of action; what Ludwig von Mises called “Human Action” or praxeology. “Fitness” is not a matter of adapting to circumstances, but of looking forward to an expected future state of affairs (an end) and then calculating which of many different means will best reach that end. The term “calculating” will usually mean a money calculation but it need not; and the term “best” will usually mean “most efficient from the standpoint of those performing the calculation” but again it need not. The very fact that capitalism must assume a teleological connection between ends and means makes it, I believe, quite different from Darwinism, which discounts any considerations (or even the reality) of teleology. Consider, too, that every “economic mutation” in capitalism is teleologically driven: when consumer demand changes, prices change; when prices change, producers adjust accordingly. Unlike Darwinism, where these is no necessary connection between a point mutation and fitness (a mutation, being random, can be beneficial, neutral, or injurious) all “mutations” in capitalism (i.e., changes in demand) result in a reordering of value hierarchies to try to maximize profit. * “Darwin’s major contribution was, of course, the suggestion that evolution can be explained by the natural selection of random variations. Natural selection, which was at first considered as though it were a hypothesis that was in need of experimental or observational confirmation, turns out on closer inspection to be a tautology, a statement of an inevitable although previously unrecognized relation. It states that the fittest individuals in a population (defined as those which leave most offspring) will leave most offspring. Once the statement is made, its truth is apparent. This fact in no way reduces the magnitude of Darwin’s achievement; only after it was clearly formulated, could biologists realize the enormous power of the principle as a weapon of explanation.” [C. H. Waddington, 1960, “Evolutionary Adaptation,” an article from an anthology titled “Evolution After Darwin” edited by Sol Tax, University of Chicago Press, 1960)filmGrain
September 15, 2006
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Karl I'd be a vegetarian if I had to first kill what I eat. I can look a steak in the eye sitting on the shelf at the grocers and not feel anything. It's already dead but I know I'm complicit if I eat it and will probably pay for my complicity come judgement day (the shoe fits). Barry Upon further reflection of going to a judge's home and humanely killing his dog (or any other animal he owned for that matter) if you did that in Texas at night you'd be lucky if it only landed you in jail instead of the morgue. At a minimum, the animals are property and killing them a property crime. Even if you didn't kill the animal and just tried carrying off a chicken under your arm at night you could be legally gunned down for trying to flee at night with stolen property. I'm of the understanding that this is true for most western and southern states. § 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: "The along comes Christ who never in his perfect life killed anything or anyone." Christ said: "Go, prepare the passover." Kill the fattened vegetables...Robo
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote:
If you cause the death of another warm blooded animal and don’t feel profound remorse and wish you hadn’t done it then you’re a cold hearted killer.
Dave, I hadn't thought about it before, but does this mean you're a vegetarian?Karl Pfluger
September 15, 2006
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Barry If one kills an animal in a humane way, one does not go to jail. Oh yeah? Go humanely kill a few spotted owls or bald eagles and see where it gets you. Or go to the San Diego Zoo and humanly kill some of the animals there and see if you can avoid jail. Oh how about this - go to the home of a judge you know and humanely kill his dog. See if that lands you in the hoosegow or not. A quick google indicates you probably better not try these in Georgia as there's no question as to the risk of incarceration. Your answers in this thread have been rather shallow. I suggest you exercise a modicum of due diligence or remain silent. GEORGIA ANIMAL CRUELTY CRIMINAL PROVISIONS16-12-4. Cruelty to animals.(a) As used in this Code section, the term:(1) "Animal" shall not include any fish nor shall such terminclude any pest that might be exterminated or removed from abusiness, residence, or other structure.(2)"Conviction"shallincludepleasofguiltyornolocontendere or probation as a first offender pursuant to Article3 of Chapter 8 of Title 42 and any conviction, plea of guilty ornolo contendere, or probation as a first offender for an offenseunder the laws of the United States or any of the several statesthat would constitute a violation of this Code section ifcommitted in this state.(3) "Willful neglect" means the intentional withholding of foodand water required by an animal to prevent starvation ordehydration.(b)A person commits the offense of cruelty to animals when heor she causes death or unjustifiable physical pain or sufferingto any animal by an act, an omission, or willful neglect. Anyperson convicted of a violation of this subsection shall beguilty of a misdemeanor; provided, however, that:(1) Any person who is convicted of a second or subsequentviolation of this subsection shall be punished by imprisonmentnot to exceed 12 months, a fine not to exceed $5,000.00, orboth; and(2) Any person who is convicted of a second or subsequentviolation of this subsection which results in the death of ananimal shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of a high and aggravatednature and shall be punished by imprisonment for not less thanthree months nor more than 12 months, a fine not to exceed$10,000.00, or both, which punishment shall not be suspended,probated, or withheld.(c)A person commits the offense of aggravated cruelty toanimals when he or she knowingly and maliciously causes death orphysical harm to an animal by rendering a part of such animal'sbody useless or by seriously disfiguring such animal. A personconvicted of the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals shallbe punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more thanfive years, a fine not to exceed $15,000.00, or both, providedthat any person who is convicted of a second or subsequentviolation of this subsection shall be punished by imprisonmentfor not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not toexceed the amount provided by Code Section 17-10-8, or both. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page 3 (d) Before sentencing a defendant for any conviction under thisCode section, the sentencing judge may require psychologicalevaluation of the offender and shall consider the entirecriminal record of the offender.(e)The provisions of this Code section shall not be construedas prohibiting conduct which is otherwise permitted under thelaws of this state or of the United States, including, but notlimited to, agricultural, animal husbandry, butchering, foodprocessing,marketing,scientific,research,medical,zoological, exhibition, competitive, hunting, trapping, fishing,wildlife management, or pest control practices or the authorizedpractice of veterinary medicine nor to limit in any way theauthority or duty of the Department of Agriculture, Departmentof Natural Resources, any county board of health, any lawenforcement officer, dog, animal, or rabies control officer,humane society, veterinarian, or private landowner protectinghis or her property.(f) (1)Nothing in this Code section shall be construed asprohibiting a person from:(A) Defending his or her person or property, or the person orproperty of another, from injury or damage being caused by ananimal; or(B) Injuring or killing an animal reasonably believed toconstitute a threat for injury or damage to any property,livestock, or poultry.(2) The method used to injure or kill such animal shall bedesigned to be as humane as is possible under the circumstances.A person who humanely injures or kills an animal under thecircumstances indicated in this subsection shall incur no civilor criminal liability for such injury or death.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Late to the feast as usual, but playing catch-up, I notice a few references to Lysenko and Stalin. Lysenko's theories that inheritable characteristics could be acquired (e. g. "vernalization") were supported by fraudulent field tests and his ideas were subsequently accepted and put into practice as part of the enforced collectivisation in the Ukraine in the early thirties. This resulted in famine and the deaths of possibly 30 million Ukrainians. The subtext may have been that Stalin used Lysenko's bogus ideas to starve Ukraine into submitting to Soviet domination. This was naked politics, not innocent pursuit of a mistaken scientific theory.Alan Fox
September 15, 2006
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The nazi eugenic plan was not solely their own. It was a worldwide confederation of scientists and politicians and academics and corporations who saw the fruition of their ideas fully expressed by the nazis. In fact the nazis were the envy of the eugenics movement. The eugenics movement started in America and was exported to Germany and was supported by the Rockefeller Foundation who financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. For people to deny the direct chain of causation from Darwin to the nazis is simply a sign of ignorance or denial. The eugenics movememnt was a direct offshoot of Darwinism and created by Darwin's cousin Francis Galton. Eugenics became the preferred bioethical ideology of the western establishment and was seen as a way to aid evolution. The nazis had their own racial ideas coming from older occult sources such as atlantis was the original home of the aryan (nordic) race, based on the writings of Helena Blavatsky, as well as ideas coming from other occult traditions; Hitler in a conversation with Hermann Rauschning asks "How can we arrest racial decay? Shall we form a select company of the really initiated? An Order, the brotherhood of Templars around the holy grail of pure blood?" That would be the basis of the SS. It would be the eugenics movement which was imported into Germany by the American and British establishment which would actually be the main cause of nazi racial extermination policies. For details on the eugenics movement there is no better source then this http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/mentok
September 15, 2006
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jmcd: just because people are fallible in their ability to perceive and act upon absolutes does not in any way mean there aren't absolutes. "Divine Law" IS. Religions are just attempts, of greater or lesser value, to get at what is.tinabrewer
September 15, 2006
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