Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How Controversies Within Evolution Add Up to a Controversy About Evolution

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It is often said that while there are many controversies within evolution as to the specifics of how evolution works, there is no controversy about the fact of evolution. Often times, when ID’ers talk about problems with evolutionary theory, they are accused of misrepresentation — that certainly there are controversies about aspects of evolution, but not controversies about the fact of evolution itself. Thus, any amount of doubt that might be brought on by these criticisms are washed away by the fact that these are mere quibbles over details.

However, the truth is that many of these controversies are pointing somewhere, though sometimes connecting the dots explicitly is sometimes difficult to do. However, recently Paul Nelson wrote an wonderful post about just one controversy which could shake evolution’s foundation to its core — the micro/macro debate. On one side are those who are population geneticists, who say that you can’t have giant sweeping mutations that make huge jumps all-at-once — that all evolution must follow standard population genetics. On the other side are the developmental biologists, who point out that the integrated nature of the developmental circuitry governing body plans mean that evolution _must_ occur in big jumps all-at-once. Now, both of these sides fully believe in evolution. So let’s see what Paul has to say about this:

Suppose that, for his part, Coyne is right that viable macromutations don’t happen, and that the rules of population genetics must be obeyed in any evolutionary scenario.

But suppose that, for their part, Erwin and Davidson are right about the signal of the fossil record (rapid discontinuity) and the nature of body plan specification (novel architectures can’t be built incrementally, because that’s not how they work developmentally).

What happens to the theory of the common descent of the animals? — a theory, by the way, that all parties to this dust-up hold as a given.

That’s the body prone on the barroom floor. Unconscious, and bleeding all over the place.

Now, the interesting thing is that while I am with Nelson and disagree with common descent myself, the only legitimate way to save common descent is with ID. Holistically designed parts is the only way through this. There may have been a common descent that occurred, but it certainly didn’t occur without massive frontloading or the continuous intervention of a designer. The holistic nature of many biological structures points to a designed origin. These structures may have developed from previous types, but they did not evolve along non-telic lines.

And this is why, in a larger context, controversies within evolution do in fact often point towards a controversy about evolution itself. The bibliographies of biology papers expressing problems with evolution are valid even when their authors themselves don’t think that their results cast doubt on evolution itself. When you start adding up the problems within evolutionary theory, because of cases like this that it quickly becomes apparent that there is a larger problem not being discussed that isn’t within evolutionary theory, it is about evolutionary theory.

But that’s the unconscious and bleeding body on the floor that noone wants to speak of.

Comments
DaveScot: "I find continuous intervention to be inelegant but it remains a possibility." Newtonian physics was more elegant than QM. I don't see how elegance is logically relevant. Seems more like an emotional/intuitive response to me, and thus without any rational usefulness. Seems to me that if there is a designer(s) it may be smart enough to engineer life, but not smart enough to completely front-load it. Why does it have to be all frontloading or nothing?mike1962
September 14, 2006
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Yet another nail in the Darwinian coffin. The problems with the theory are mounting almost daily and becoming more and more severe in more and more areas. The trend is clear. The only thing propping it up is increasingly desperate and fantastic speculation -- the sign of a paradigm in crisis and on the verge of meltdown.GilDodgen
September 14, 2006
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I'm not that knowledgeable about body plans, but here are two important body plans: 1. body plans of plants 2. body plans of animals Even conceiving of Darwinian changes to create these lines from a comman ancestor seems awfully speculative. What would be the common ancestor to a plant and animal? Let's grant that such a thing (half plant, half animal) exists, then what would the Darwinian pathway look like? Or how about a butterfly and Elephant? I can sypmathize with the problem Davidson poses to Coyne. Salvadorscordova
September 14, 2006
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There may have been a common descent that occurred, but it certainly didn’t occur without massive frontloading or the continuous intervention of a designer. BINGO! As Archie Bunker would say: "My sediments exactly." I find continuous intervention to be inelegant but it remains a possibility. In order to get around that I staked out abiogenesis as the goalpost. It's early, it's complex, and it's universal. If that can be done without intelligent agency I'm willing to concede that everything thereafter can be done without intelligent agency too.DaveScot
September 14, 2006
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I think the problem is that in reaction to people like Richard Goldschmidt who thought that evolution consisted of very large macromutations, the architects of the modern synthesis went completely the other way and insisted on only tiny variations. The truth appears to lie somewhere in between, although I really don't get how this invalidates common descent.Chris Hyland
September 14, 2006
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I agree Nelson’s post over there was great. When I read it last night, the first thing I thought of was the almost identical dispute between Gould/Eldredge and say, Dawkins, over gradualism. Dawkins says gradualism is of the “essence” of Darwinism. Gould/Eldredge say that gradualism (at least in the form predicted by Darwin) is falsified. Now everyone that takes NDE as a given has to choose sides, because the claims are mutually exclusive. I say, why can’t they both be right? Gradualism is clearly of the essence of NDE, and it has been falsified. Therefore, THE central tenant of NDE is falsified and that brings down the whole house of cards.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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The one resolution to all this is to say Darwinian evolution is not the mechanism for evolution. Kimura (a population geneticist) proved the majority of molecular evolution could not be Darwinian. This was problematic of course! The kluge to resolve the impasse between Kimura and Darwin was to say most molecular evolution has no functional significance (hence some support for the junk DNA viewpoints), but Darwinism still accounts for the functional stuff. Well, now Darwinism could get clobbered by the developmentalists like Davidson. The irony: 1. Population geneticists blew Darwin out of the water for the majority of molecular evolution 2. Developmentalists like Davidson could blow Darwin out of the water for body plans 3. Orr, Lewontin, Gould cast doubt on the relationship of selection and functional design What's left for Darwin? Anti-biotic resistance? Ooops, that doesn't count either since such micro changes are within the scope of Edward Blyth and company.scordova
September 14, 2006
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It's not labelled "part 1" or anything. It's just posted as You Read That Right.johnnyb
September 14, 2006
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Whoa! Sometimes I forget to visit idthefuture. By the way, I couldn't find (pt 1). Great thread johnnyb! Salscordova
September 14, 2006
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Also, just a reminder for those of you who thought that holistic (irreducibly complex) structures couldn't evolve -- they can, just not Darwinistically (a-teleologically).johnnyb
September 14, 2006
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