Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How does the actor act?

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Although ID continues to gather supporters, it happens now and again that erstwhile ID supporters lose their enthusiasm and jump ship. One such former supporter is a very prominent European scientist. I met him first in 2004, when he was still attracted to ID. Now he is no longer. I asked him about this recently:

Question: If not ID, what then? The Darwinists are bankrupt. And the self-organizational theorists are hopelessly fuzzy. James Shapiro — he presupposes the very thing that needs to be explained, namely, the origin of systems that perform their own “natural genetic engineering.” Kirschner and Gerhardt are no better with their “facilitated variation” — whence the facilitation?

He responded:

Excellent question of course. So the search continues… [sic] As for ID, more fundamental work on the practicality of design detection is crucial — and your strength. But in the end, ID will only fly if a more concrete story can be told about the mechanism of design implementation, how the actor acts.

This objection has always seemed to me, at least in part, to miss the point, seeking to reduce an act of creative intelligence to a mechanism (on the order of reducing consciousness to computation). And yet, the question of how design gets implemented in natural history does seem to be critical to understanding ID.

Thoughts?

Comments
Reep, This is something which I repeat every now and then about evolution. For purposes of explanation I have used the following 4 possible mechanisms for the origin of new species. 1. Gradualism or what is commonly known as neo Darwinism using the familiar paradigm of random variation plus natural selection. 2. Other naturalistic mechanisms (of unknown variety) that cause large changes in the genome which is then subject to natural selection. Of course some will combine 1 and 2 and say there are just a variety of naturalistic mechanisms causing changes in the genome which is then subject to natural selection. 3. One or more genomes were created/designed by some intelligence and introduced to Earth at one or more times in the deep past and from these all the life that we have witnessed has evolved based on some interaction of these genomes with the environment over deep time. This is often called the front loading mechanism and can have many variants. 4. One or more genomes were created/designed by some intelligence and introduced to Earth at one or more times and either these genomes were modified and new ones introduced at various times during the last 3.5 billion years by an intelligence. How or why the intelligence modified the genome is not the issue and is probably unknowable. But maybe as we learn more about genomes and how they function, we can develop some hypotheses. The last two are Intelligent Design variants and actually either could include 1 or 2 as part of the mechanisms that resulted in new species. They are not incompatible. Now it is certainly possible that there could be other possibilities that don’t include any of these 4 scenarios and it is certainly possible that all 4 could have been operating from the beginning at different times. The only reason I spelt this out is that if you decide to back one of the four, the main evidence for your choice is probably going to be negative arguments against the other three. There is very little positive information for any of the 4 mechanisms and people arguing for one tend to mainly recite negative arguments against the others. That is why we have all these theodicy arguments, bad design arguments etc used against ID. We constantly hear talk about how neo Darwinism has been falsified so many times it gets boring to repeat it. We constantly remark that no one ever presents any of the overwhelming evidence for Darwin. Each is true and reflects that ID is mainly backed by negative arguments and the lack of positive arguments for mechanisms 1 and 2. If mechanism 1 or 2 were true one would expect a lot of forensic information to support it. At the moment there is none except trivial examples. If there were good information then the textbooks would be full of them. But they are not. This is a classic case of Sherlock Holmes observation from Silver Blaze of the "the dog barking in the night." There was no dog that barked so why aren't the Darwin supporters barking? The answer is they have no examples, not even good forensic evidence suggesting that 1 and 2 are operating.jerry
October 24, 2007
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How do we know whether aircraft fly because of the effect of the airflow over the wing, etc. or because they are being held up by an agent of ID? ....we have to have a method for making the distinction, and that method can only be the mechanism.
Actually, that would be the explanatory filter (EF), which is part of the core of ID theory. In this wing example, design as an explanation would be rejected in the first part of the EF, since the object under question can readily be explained by a law. We never get to the point of considering the probabilistic resources of the scenario and whether design is applicable.Patrick
October 24, 2007
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I can see why “who cares how it’s done – we only care that it is done” is an attractive position, and also that it has some merit. But my feeling is that a huge value of describing the mechanism is not just for its own sake ie. having complete knowledge of what is going on (we have to be intrigued, surely?) but also because it identifies the BOUNDARIES of the design process. How do we know whether aircraft fly because of the effect of the airflow over the wing, etc. or because they are being held up by an agent of ID? Some people have accused me of being facetious when I ask this, but I can assure you that this is an entirely genuine dilemma of mine. Surely we have to be able to say that ‘such and such is ID’, and conversely that ‘such and such is the material world’? And if we’re going to do this we have to have a method for making the distinction, and that method can only be the mechanism. Inextricably linked with this is the unavoidable fact that knowledge of the mechanism would be the PROOF – isn’t this the objective?duncan
October 24, 2007
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I for one, think that scientists can somewhat discern what type of "spiritual" and physical mechanisms are behind the implementation of information into "material" systems. ...Science already has a valuable tool in the measuring of entropies of various material systems..In fact the most fantastic number for the anthropic principle comes from Penrose's calculation for the Entropy of 'phase space' at the Big Bang. He stated "The Creator's aim must have been to an accuracy of (10^10^123). That is 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right.) Likewise I can discern that the rough timing of implementation of information into life forms can be somewhat discerned by measuring the genetic entropy of life i.e. each adaptation of a complex life form (observed speciation) will always come at a cost of gentic information, thus obeying the foundational principle of genetic entropy.. As far as physical implementation of the information into material systems...At the cutting edge of science, it is now being found that a tremendous amount of information can possibly be encoded into light in ways never dreamed of a few years before. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000E7D49-4ADD-1D06-8E49809EC588EEDF&catID=1 Particularly this quote: The findings represent an encouraging step toward exploiting OAM for quantum information processing, the authors note. Although they were able to discriminate among only four values out of an infinite number of options for OAM, they conclude that the ability to measure a single photon's OAM provides the possibility of a much greater density of information transfer. Thus I maintain that the question of "How does the Actor act?" may very well be within the grasp of man to understand,, and on top of understanding it, it very possibly may even be within his grasp to manipulate for his own needs!bornagain77
October 24, 2007
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OK wait- If ID has to identify the designer and/ or the specific design process used then does that eman that the anti-IDists have to tell us which mutations were responsible for X changes? IOW why is it OK to say "random mutations culled by selection, genetic drift and/ or lateral gene transfer" but not OK to say "designed to evolve"? Over on Amazon (Dr Behe's blog) a biologist claimed that carpenters, plumbers and electricians have specific mechanisms. However if I give 5 carpenters, 5 plumbers and 5 electricians a job to do it is very likely that each will do it differently. IOW there isn't one mechanism for carpentry, one for plumbing and one for electricians. They have a job and they do it per the specifications. Also in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY way to make any determination about the designer or the specific design process used is by studying the design in question. See also: Intelligent Design: The Design HypothesisJoseph
October 24, 2007
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Reep, Behe believes that God "used the mechanism of evolution"...the difference is that it is intelligent evolution and not unintelligent, unguided evolution.Patrick
October 24, 2007
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Jerry, Ok, so then it would be your view that all living things, by virtue of their complex and interactive makeup fall under the category of designed things, and non-living things do not? If that’s the case, and we assume that such things were designed, why not then move on to the next step of trying to discern how the designer(s) created or modified these things? Why not try to learn what we can of the designer(s) from the evidence, those things which appear to be designed? I mean, I understand if you say that you’re only in the beginning phases of the idea and need time to get there, but shouldn’t that be a logical next step to be working on? To put it from my personal perspective, I believe both that everything was created with a purpose, and that the mechanism for the lifeforms we see around us was evolution. Since ID disagrees with my view, do you have an alternative mechanism by which the designer worked, or have some reason why the designer could not or would not have used the mechanism of evolution?Reep
October 24, 2007
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Personally I'm not sure why the lack of a specified mechanism is such a hangup. After all, Darwinists are arguing amongst themselves what the primary mechanism for creating complex genomes might be. Does the CORE of ID theory need to be tied to mechanisms considering ID-compatible hypotheses provide mechanisms such as front-loading, panspermia, punctuated intervention, quantum entanglement, the FSM mothership visiting every so often or whatever (could not help throwing the last one in for humor value ;) )? But it just so happens that the topic of ID mechanisms came up just yesterday on OE:
You are asking for a mechanism for design. Let me be clear that the core of ID theory is not mechanical in nature. There are ID-compatible hypotheses that offer mechanisms for design in biology. Two examples are front-loading and punctuated intervention, which are both compatible with universal common descent. Of course, even in a YEC scenario there can still be partial front-loading and other intelligent mechanisms which can account for rapid evolution. While front-loading has predictions unfortunately the results of punctuated intervention and unintelligent mechanisms might look much the same. The difference is that intelligent mechanisms need not be gradualistic, which of course is more compatible with the fossil record. But while we know that intelligence is quite capable of producing specified complexity we are still trying to determine the exact limitations of unguided Darwinian mechanisms. We do have experimental evidence (see Behe's Edge of Evolution) but most Darwinian mechanisms are untested...they're just assumed to work as advertised. Now an intelligent mechanism can self-terminate aka "stop". Darwinian mechanisms on the other hand have no reason to do so. So, unless unguided, unintelligent Darwinian mechanisms happen to be on vacation they are either not active today at the same level or they were never capable in the first place. It's always possible we are misunderstanding something about unintelligent mechanisms but so far the outlook is grim for Darwinism. I for one am open to the possibility that intelligence was only involved during OOL and the system was configured in such a fashion to allow unintelligent mechanisms to unfold the rest (like a culmination of lego block pieces). But I do not see any evidence or experiments to validate that scenario.
Patrick
October 24, 2007
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Reep, There are thousands of identified complex systems that contribute to an objective in what we call life. Nowhere else does such a thing exist in nature except for the fundamental laws of the universe itself. There are systems, these systems have a pupose, the systems are incredibly complex and these systems build on each other. It's not hard to see how this is a distinguishing feature.jerry
October 24, 2007
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In the Teaching Company course on the Philosophy of Science, the lecturer, Jeffrey Kasser, discusses ID at various places. Not overly critical as one would expect but not supportive either. His main observation is that till now ID is interested in the big questions. And until it gets interested in the little questions it will go nowhere as a science. This is easier said and done in today's science climate where nearly all depends upon grant money and grant money is in the hands of those hostile to ID. However, until a bunch of little things can add up, it may be difficult to establish ID as a separate area of science. Given this, it may be possible to make an ID literature out of what is currently available. There are probably many studies unbeknownst to the researchers who implemented them that have ID implications. Each could be reinterpreted in the ID framework to provide an ID literature and a basis for further studies. One possible example, is the literature on blood clotting was used to undermine Behe's testimony at Dover. However, from what I understand the literature did not really support the claims made of them. If these studies and others related to the topic were used to show the limitations of natural processes and not their supposed amazing abilities then other studies that were being implemented could be used in conjunction with this literature even if the current researchers had no intent on doing so. Now, the real problem is reality. Who would do this is the question. It could only be tenured researchers since anyone not tenured would be ostracized immediately. Even tenured researchers could have their grant money cut off essentially neutering them. One possibility is that the researchers in question have support from people interested in their research for it practical purposes such as venture capitalists.jerry
October 24, 2007
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Allanias you stated: I’m missing something, the “actor” is inscrutable. 1.inscrutable: incapable of being investigated, analyzed, or scrutinized; impenetrable. Yet in spite of this belief (a science stopper) I bet you also hold this belief: People were created to have fellowship with God; So I ask you "How can one have fellowship with a God Who is incapable of being investigated?"... Though you are right in one sense, I do think in His full power God is indeed inscrutable; I think it would be more proper for you to say that God is sovereign and even primary elemental to nature. That is to say, All realities have their being through Him,,, Thus, because of these truths, I hold that God is somewhat "scrutable" by us and even able to be found by science in so far as science is able to be trace reality back to Him.bornagain77
October 24, 2007
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I’m going to chance de-lurking here to throw in my support for this guy’s question. To start with, I don’t believe in ID. I’d fall under the category of theistic evolutionist myself. I’m not a professional scientist, philosopher or theologian. I’m an engineer with a layman’s interest in the whole subject. The lack of any kind of proposed mechanism is a big reason I have trouble buying into ID. It seems to me the primary argument for ID is that conditions appear extremely unlikely to have happened by random coincidence, and that once that unlikeliness passes a certain threshold, design is the most rational alternative. I would personally find it far more convincing if ID proponents could tell me in some way what are defining features of designed things versus undesigned things. Even if that explanation weren’t fully fleshed out or tested yet, it would provide a starting point for looking at aspects of life or the universe and saying, “Yes, that shows features of design, because we know or have reason to believe that the designer(s) operated along those lines.” or “No, that rock over there shows no signs that the designer(s) had any direct hand in its origins or development.” At the moment, it seems a more philosophical issue. Some people look at the world around us and say it appears designed. Others say it looks like something that developed through natural laws. But without giving some kind of distinguishing features, it sounds like a matter of preference. I think a couple people referenced Newton’s description of gravity as a mechanism free scientific breakthrough. But even in that case, Newton described how gravity behaved. When astronomers compared his calculations to the orbit of Uranus, and found a discrepancy, they were able to use his equations to determine what was causing that discrepancy, and consequently discover the planet Neptune. Can ID describe at least the apparent behavior of the designer(s), or are all things simply designed and there is no contrast between “designed” and “existing”?Reep
October 24, 2007
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Unless I'm missing something, the "actor" is inscrutable. That's the clear message we have from a higher form of revelation than science. And science tells us the same thing. Gravity: inscrutable. Light: inscrutable. Life: inscrutable. Self: inscrutable. To ask how the actor acts is to reopen the door of teleology, which should have been closed long ago, since it assigns transcendent significance to intellect. If grace is grace, then it must be something more than intellect. The inscrutable actor should be embraced. The real question is: what is science? ID describes something that is actually perceived with the senses, since design is obvious. Darwinism is nothing more than a theory of how that design might have come into being without the aid of supernatural causes, a theory that looks increasingly improbable with each passing day. Since ID deals with what is seen, and Darwinism is purely a theory, ID is justified in claiming the mantle of "science" for itself, because "science" means knowledge of the physical universe. Let man be humbled by the vanity of his own thinking. That is the moral of modern theoretical science and the attempt to use intellect to supercede God.allanius
October 24, 2007
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Like someone said previously, we may never know how the implementation was achieved. Should science stop because of that? The point of view the ex-ID takes may be a science stopper, if the implementation is beyond our empirical grasp. However, the implementation being out of the empirics doesn't invalidate the nature of the effect, and the testability of the effects.Mats
October 24, 2007
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Dr. Dembski, I've heard said that in order to start cleaning your house you have to first and foremost admit that your house is indeed dirty. Likewise for science to move forward, science as a whole it has to admit that biology in particular is engulfed in the cluttering fallacies. Once this is accomplished, further breakthroughs are possible in science. Your question, Dr. Dembski, is "How Does the Actor act?" If we are willing to concede that the same transcendent Being Who is by all indications responsible for the Big Bang is same one responsible for the origination of the CSI in life then we can start asking practical scientific questions. For instance "How does the higher "spiritual" realm actually interact with physical reality"? ..To this question I believe we already have preliminary guideposts to guide us in physics to the correct answers. Quantum entanglement seems to give us clear insight into how this spiritual Entity actually interacts within physics. The following short article is one I've recently posted before,,,yet I feel it is worth reposting since it is very integral to the topic at hand. What is Truth? To varying degrees everyone looks for truth. A few people have traveled to distant lands seeking gurus in their quest to find “Truth”. People are happy when they discover a new truth into the mysteries of life. People who have deep insights into the truth of how things actually work are considered wise. In the bible Jesus says “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” as well as “I am the TRUTH, the way, and the life.” So, since truth is considered such a good thing, let us look for truth in a common object; a simple rock. Few people would try to argue that a rock is not real. Someone who would argue that it is not real could bang his head on the rock until he was satisfied the rock is real. A blind man in a darkened cave would feel the rock hitting his head just as well as a sighted man who saw the rock coming. The rock is real and its reality is not dependent on our observation. Having stated the obvious lets look at what the rock is actually made of. A rock is composed of three basic ingredients; energy, force and truth. From Einstein’s’ famous equation (e=mc2) we know that all matter (solids, liquids and gases) of the universe is made of energy. This energy is “woven” by various forces into the atoms of the rock. The amount of energy woven by these complex interactions of various forces into the rock is tremendous. This tremendous energy that is in the rock is clearly demonstrated by the detonation of atom . This woven energy is found in each and every individual “particle” of every atom in the trillions upon trillions of atoms in the rock. Woven energy is the “substance” of the rock. It is what gives the rock its physicality of being solid. Yet there is another ingredient which went into making the rock that is often neglected to be looked at as a “real” component of the rock. It is the transcendent spiritual component of truth. If truth did not exist the rock would not exist. This is as obvious as the fact that the rock would not exist if energy and/or force did not exist. It is the truth in and of the logical laws of the universal constants that govern the energy and force of the rock that enable the rock to be a rock in the first place. Is truth independent and nt of the energy and force? Yes of course, there are many philosophical truths that are not dependent on energy or force for them to still be true. Yet energy and force are always subject to what truth tells them they can and cannot do. That is to say, the rock cannot exist without truth yet truth can exist without the rock. Energy and force must obey the truth that is above them or else it can’t possibly exist. Since truth dictates what energy and/or force can or cannot do, truth tes energy and force. Energy and force do not do^min^ate truth. If all energy and/or force stopped existing the truth that ruled the energy and force in the rock would still be logically true. Thus, truth is eternal. The logical truth existed before the rock existed. The logical truth exists while the rock exists. The logical truth will exist after the rock is long gone. It is also obvious that truth is omnipresent. The truth that is in the rock on this world is the same truth that is in a rock on the other side of the universe on another world. Thus, truth is present everywhere at all times. It has been scientifically proven, by quantum non-locality, that whenever something becomes physically “real” (wave collapse of entangled electron (quantum entanglement)) in any part of the universe this “information of reality (truth)” is instantaneously communicated everywhere in the universe. Thus, truth is “aware” of everything that goes on in the universe instantaneously. This universal awareness gives truth a vital characteristic of being omniscient. This instantaneous communication of truth to all points in the universe also happens to defy the speed of light; a “truth” that energy and even gravity happen to be subject to. This scientific proof of quantum non-locality also proves that truth is not a “passive” component of this universe. Truth is actually scientifically demonstrated to be the “active” do^min^ant component of this universe. Truth is not a passive set of rules written on a sheet of paper somewhere. Truth is the “living governor” of this universe that has dominion over all other components of this universe. Well, lets see what we have so far; Truth is eternal (it has always existed and will always exist); Truth is omnipresent (it is present everywhere in the universe at all times); Truth is omnipotent (it has dominion over everything else in the universe); Truth has a vital characteristic of omniscience (it knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe); and Truth is active” (it is aware of everything that is happening and instantaneously makes appropriate adjustments wherever needed in the universe). Surprisingly, being eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient and active are some of the very characteristics that are used by theologians to describe God. Thus, by the strict rules of logic this means spiritual truth emanates from God. So in answer to our question “What is Truth?” we can answer that truth comes from God. Thus we have solid scientific proof of the spiritual realm interacting with the physical realm!! As a sidelight to this: Jesus says that He is “The Truth”. In light with what has been revealed, This is a VERY fantastic claim! If Jesus is speaking a truth, which I believe He is from the personal miracles I’ve seen in my life, then by the str^ict rules of logic this makes Jesus the ultimate and all encompassing expression all God’s truth in this universe. In other words, all individual truths of this universe, such as all the laws of physics, and all the ones in philosophy, find their final authority and ultimate expression in Jesus Christ.bornagain77
October 24, 2007
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I am going to go against the grain here. I think it is important to understand mechanisms. Because understanding mechanisms leads to practical applications. And practical applications cannot be waved away by the materialist scientists. It is fun to exercise ourselves intellectually here, but I fear we will eventually turn (evolve?) into a coffee klatsch unless the ID scientists out there cure a disease or fix a genetic condition.rrf
October 24, 2007
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I’m pretty new to ID and ‘agnostic’ at the moment. The issue in this post is a big stumbling block for me. Some of my thoughts are: - If we don’t know precisely why gravity works, we certainly know how ie. we know exactly how it will come to bear on any body or bodies in any given set of circumstances. The fact that we can delineate the boundaries and qualities of gravity gives it meaning – quite apart from the fact that we can put the knowledge to huge practical use eg. satellites orbiting. This can’t be said of ID. In ID it seems to be expressly forbidden to consider “who, how, why, where, and when”. This can only serve to give ID a certain nebulous quality – sometimes it appears to me to be nothing more than an educated guess. Lots of comments on UD say things to the effect that “ID is obvious”. Well, I’m afraid it is certainly not obvious to me. I’m willing to be persuaded, but I need more ‘meat’. Another problem I have is that a lot of ID-related effort is not expressly about ID at all, but rather criticisms of Darwinism. This is all fine (in fact, the most interesting area, as far as I’m concerned), but the assumption that the collapse of Darwinism equals the triumph of ID is a logical non-sequitur. Lastly, and related to the above comment – if we don’t have any hard facts about the mechanisms of ID, then how do we know it’s not happening in those areas other than the ones where we feel the conventional materialist / naturalist explanations fail ie. in everything (of course, theists would say it / He is)duncan
October 24, 2007
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Bill, If our goal is to get the majority of scientists to see what is obvious to us, that there is no explanation for the cleverness in biology apart from design, and to get scientific journals to discuss design seriously, we are going to be frustrated for a long time. A much more achievable goal, which will be almost as satisfying, is to get the majority of scientists to admit to the general public what they already know, that their 19th century explanation is hopelessly inadequate now, and that there is no alternative in sight. Imagine a world where scientists simply admit they are stumped by the complexity of life, and are still looking for an explanation, and where the popular media actually report this fact. Imagine a world where the layman is free to use common sense to decide for himself what the causes of this cleverness are. It will be a much better world, Bill.Granville Sewell
October 24, 2007
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I'm also with TroutMac; how a particular idea is implemented is not the issue. That's one of the main points of my book, "Some of the Parts" which you can read for free by clicking the ad at the right. The word for your friend, Mr. Dembski, is arrogant; he's essentially saying that he won't believe anything until he completely understands everything about it. And that, of course, leaves him with precious little to believe.Gerry Rzeppa
October 24, 2007
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To echo what some others have said and (IIRC) Steve Fuller suggested to me. When Newton first came up with the idea of gravity he had no idea how the heck it worked, all he knew was that objects attract one another in a way proportional to their mass and distance. The mechanism of this ? Newton had no idea. If ID requires a "mechanism" for the effect that is produced to be science, then Newtoniam mechanics were not science. To pick an example from biology. Mendel likewise had no idea what the mechanism of heritability was, but he could certainly measure and test its effects and make predictions. Was Mendeleevian genetics science ? It seems stupid to claim that what Mendel was doing or what Newton was doing was something other than science even though they had no idea of the mechanism. The question of mechanism is just an open research problem to be tackled. One thing ID critics fail consistently to understand is that if science is going to tell us things about the nature of the real world then you have to consider ID as a live possibility because it may well be true. If it is out of court by definition then science has ceased to be about the search for truth about the material world.Jason Rennie
October 24, 2007
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I wouldn't call The Scientist's reply an objection. It sounds like he has jumped ship too early, but may return if there was a better way to show how the mind of the actor was influencing the actions. That's why he says "As for ID, more fundamental work on the practicality of design detection is crucial — and your strength." It sounds like he is taking the polite route of saying "Show some PROOF!" I believe that ONLY an act of creative intelligence can be reduced to a mechanism. Scientists are constantly seeking this mechanism, but do not identify the resulting acts as originating from an "intelligent" source. The confusion arises from having to distinguish between a purposeful act and an accidental act. It is this blindness, mixed with the ease of ascribing "accident" to purpose, that causes their minds to think completely backwards about life, nature, and evolution. The truth is that even if they were smacked hard in the face with "proof", they may be incapable of seeing it.John Kelly
October 23, 2007
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Bill, Venter isn't doing origin of life research. He's doing customization of life research. No engineer in his right mind is going to reinvent basic cellular components like ribosomes when well tested designs already exist nor would they invent a huge inventory of proteins to carry out various functions when a huge working inventory of proteins already exists. He's just taking a modular approach. Find the minimum set of preexisting components necessary for a free living bacteria then customize it with additional preexisting components to carry out tasks of practical interest to humans. For a huge array of such tasks there's no need for invention of new sub-cellular components - custom configuration is all that's required. It's like going down to Fry's Electronics Superstore and gathering up components to build things. It's impractical to reinvent parts that are already on the shelf when all you're interested in doing is assembling the parts in a new way. Extant life is like a Fry's Biologics Superstore. The only thing missing is a helpful sales person who can tell us where to look for the items we need and how to connect them to each other. We have to inventory the store ourself and figure out how to connect the component parts together in new ways using preexisting working assemblies as a guide. DaveScot
October 23, 2007
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nullasalus Genetic algorithms are robust but inefficient search methods. See Behe's Darwin's Black Box, and Limits to Evolution. I expect most studying ID would not find the mechanisms of microevolution sufficient to explain the incredible complexity and information rich nano systems being discovered, nor macroevolution, nor abiogenesis. Back to the topic, is identifying the mechanism of design implementation important to you compared to detecting design?DLH
October 23, 2007
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Good. I like what I'm hearing. Would it be safe to say that multiple realizability (the ability to implement the same design/purpose) in different ways is the reason that how the actor acts should not be a central concern of ID? If not a central concern, then how much of a concern? In TRoutMac's example, there were two implementations that could be specified in detail. Would ID be better off if we could achieve this level of detail? And what if we can't -- what if GeoffRobinson is right and the level of design in living systems so far exceeds human capabilities that we will never unravel it? In this regard, I find Craig Venter's recent work on the origin of life fundamentally deficient -- he is cutting and pasting from existing life forms rather than building them from scratch.William Dembski
October 23, 2007
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How does a mathematician come up with a new mathematical insight, or a composer compose a symphony? Even they can't tell you. Does that make their creativity any less detectable as a product of design?GilDodgen
October 23, 2007
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"a more concrete story can be told about the mechanism of design implementation, how the actor acts" The corollary is to require: "the mechanisms behind abiogenesis, the origin of a self replicating cell from atelic stochasitic processes of the four forces of nature, which is foundationally essential to natural selection." ------------- ". . .seeking to reduce an act of creative intelligence to a mechanism (on the order of reducing consciousness to computation). . ." Insight into the creative process involves a combination of "reverse engineering" applied to the five levels of information set out by Werner Gitt in In the Beginning was Information. These are different from the implementation of that creative process in natural history. Implementing the design behind the anthropic principle would involve interactions between the designer with each of the four forces of nature. Identifying this mechanism is equivalent to first discovering and quantifying "the theory of everything" AND the next level of the interaction between the designer and this universal theory. Design of self reproducing cells requires identifying the design and function of hundreds of genes, micro RNA, and photosynthesis etc, AND the starting conditions necessary to initiate their operation. Implementing such self replicating cells requires assembling these AND initiating the starting conditions and processes. Distinguishing intelligent causation from stochastic atelic natural processes is far simpler. Since we commonly identify design, this should be tractable.DLH
October 23, 2007
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Actually, to further along this, I would ask: Can't mechanisms of evolution themselves be ways in which the actor acts? Right now we have computer scientists and the like using 'evolving' programs to achieve certain goals, so it could be argued that - even without the concept of IC structures - evolution itself can show design and intention at some (all?) parts. Or would ID proponents disagree? I'm honestly curious about this one.nullasalus
October 23, 2007
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I agree with TroutMac, the presence or absence of a known mechanism should be irrelevant. If the evidence points toward a theory as the best explanation and other theories fall short, then what difference does whether the mechanism is known make to our evaluation of the theory's validity? Should we just ignore the best explanation because of little knowledge about it's mechanism?13atman
October 23, 2007
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It seems to be a philosophical hang-up. I'm not really sure how Intel designs their chips. Their may be epistemological barriers we can't get through. That's different than figuring out design. As Dirty Harry said, a man's gotta know his limitations.geoffrobinson
October 23, 2007
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TRoutMac (and Prof Dembski): Pardon a thought or a few. 1] Design is about agency; mechanism is about (evolving? cf. TRIZ here) technology. 2] It is sufficient to address many interesting and even major scientific issues that we can reasonably, empirically and credibly reliably establish using the Explanatory Filter THAT design has happened. 3] Discovering HOW it was done or could be done, by WHOM, though also of high interest, is as prof Dembski points out, a separate question. 4] Marrying the two is too often little more than a rhetorical tactic, namely a red herring leading out to a convenient strawman. 5] Sad. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 23, 2007
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