How does the mind arise from the brain? Novel idea

_{Denyse O'Leary

January 25, 2015

Intelligent Design, Mind, Neuroscience, News}

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From hplus Magazine:

Abstract: Human behaviour is controlled not only by instincts but also by the mind. However, the relation of the mind to the brain has not been fully explained. In conventional interpretations, the mind is not believed to be located at any one spot in the brain, which, if true, suggests that we will remain forever unable to explain the mind completely, regardless of our understanding of the brain’s local functions. Brain development resembles the branching process of the cherry tree, in which the trunk branches off into limbs and limbs into twigs. As a novel method of understanding the mind, we compared the patterns of neural stem cell activity with the growth patterns of meristematic cells in the cherry tree. Studying plants in the natural world enables us to keep an open mind.

It’s okay, except for one thing: Ask the cherry tree for a comment and see what you get. Get back to us with the answer. World awaits with interest.

See also: Why naturalizing the mind will never work

and

What great physicists have said about immateriality and consciousness

Hat tip: Stephanie West Allen at Brains on Purpose

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Comments

#97 Me_Think
Not non-biological nature of emotions – Due to non-biological nature of robot! Obviously the robots can’t do all these: lacrimal gland is biological. Tears of emotion have prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, Leu-enkephalin chemicals. Even the ‘lump’ you feel is biological response of muscles- parasympathetic nervous system attempts to close the fully expanded glottis to prevent food from entering the larynx. The glottis, however, attempts to remain open as an individual cries. This fight to close the glottis creates a sensation that feels like a lump in the individual’s throat- all these are biological process. vagus nerve is what induces the ‘butterfly’ in stomach, so feeling are biological
Aren't those physiological effects of emotions? When someone mourns the loss of a loved being, the sadness is caused by the awareness of that loss and the reaction to it. The physiological processes you listed seem to be just the consequences or the visible reflection of the emotional state. 1. But how can a robot experience that deep loss without loving? 2. How can a robot love someone? 3. Is there a technical description of love? I'm talking unconditional love, which implies voluntary commitment. 4. How would a robot make a voluntary commitment to love someone? Why? 5. What if this is loving an 'unlovable' (in worldly terms) being? I have some friends who plan to adopt a child with a heart problem, that will have to be treated. They have their own 'biological' children. 6. Could a robot make a decision like that? Why?Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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#98 Me_Think
AFAIK, the article says it ‘could’ be done.
If they claim that it could be done, then has anyone, anywhere, indicated how it could be done, as far as you're aware of? I could claim that I could fly to Jupiter this summer. The problem is if someone asks me to describe in technical details how I plan to do it. Claiming anything is not too difficult. To problem is proving it.
No one has bothered to do that as there has to some point in replicating those in a robot !
Didn't understand the reason why it hasn't been done. Can you say it differently? Thank you.Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio @ 96
Are there detailed technical specifications for that kind of system, where one could see the proof of concept and feasibility?
AFAIK, the article says it 'could' be done. No one has bothered to do that as there has to some point in replicating those in a robot !Me_Think_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio @ 94
What would that mean? Fake? Pretended? Unreal?
No. It would be just simulation as robots are obviously non-biological. Dionisio @ 95,
What non-biological nature can emotions be due to?
Not non-biological nature of emotions - Due to non-biological nature of robot! Obviously the robots can't do all these: lacrimal gland is biological.Tears of emotion have prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, Leu-enkephalin chemicals. Even the 'lump' you feel is biological response of muscles- parasympathetic nervous system attempts to close the fully expanded glottis to prevent food from entering the larynx. The glottis, however, attempts to remain open as an individual cries. This fight to close the glottis creates a sensation that feels like a lump in the individual's throat- all these are biological process. vagus nerve is what induces the 'butterfly' in stomach, so feeling are biologicalMe_Think_{January 30, 2015
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#93 Me_Think
Any thing can be simulated by multisensors, but as the article says,
What emotions could machines experience ? Even though many human emotions are beyond the range of machines due to their non-biological nature, some emotions could very well be felt by an artificial intelligence. These include, among others: Joy, satisfaction, contentment Disappointment, sadness Surprise Fear, anger, resentment Friendship Appreciation for beauty, art, values, morals, etc.

Are there examples of that? Are there detailed technical specifications for that kind of system, where one could see the proof of concept and feasibility?Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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#93 Me_Think
...due to non-biological nature
What non-biological nature can emotions be due to?Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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#93 Me_Think
..., beyond mere implanted simulation.
What would that mean? Fake? Pretended? Unreal?Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio @ 92,
Does the paper you referred to talks about multisensory robots simulating the emotional pain associated with the lost of a loved being?
Any thing can be simulated by multisensors, but as the article says,
What emotions could machines experience ? Even though many human emotions are beyond the range of machines due to their non-biological nature, some emotions could very well be felt by an artificial intelligence. These include, among others: Joy, satisfaction, contentment Disappointment, sadness Surprise Fear, anger, resentment Friendship Appreciation for beauty, art, values, morals, etc.
However note that due to non-biological nature:
The following [List at the end of article] emotions and feelings could not be wholly or faithfully experienced by an AI, even with a sensing robotic body, beyond mere implanted simulation.
Me_Think_{January 30, 2015
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#89 Me_Think Does the paper you referred to talks about multisensory robots simulating the emotional pain associated with the lost of a loved being? I perused it to no avail. Can you point to it? Thank you.Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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#89 Me_Think Thank you for sharing the link to the article.
IMO emotions in robots is a distraction. It will reduce it’s efficiency, unless emotions or psychological effect of emotions itself is the subject under study.
I think some kinds of emotions we experience make life special, and perhaps in some cases they may enrich it. Even productivity and efficiency may increase as result of some emotional situations. Can anyone think of examples of that? But most importantly, there are certain mysterious things associated with deep human emotions that can't be described in a technical specification document in order to develop software that could operate a robot. Does anyone agree?Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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Piotr, Somehow the title of the old TV series "Czterej pancerni i pies" came to my mind. But I'd prefer your case of four cats and a dog. It sounds more peaceful. :) BTW, I've read that the tank they used to film parts of that series is in your city? I haven't been there yet, but will let you know if I ever do. Wtedy zapraszam na kawe / herbate.Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio @ 84,
Is there anything explained in the AI literature about that? How would that work? What kind of software would achieve that?
You could try this link IMO emotions in robots is a distraction. It will reduce it's efficiency, unless emotions or psychological effect of emotions itself is the subject under study.Me_Think_{January 30, 2015
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Piotr, Thank you for your message. Serdecznie pozdrawiam. PS. Four cats and a dog seems like an interesting example of peaceful coexistence.Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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gpuccio Mile grazie. We went through quite some struggling lately: the cat got very sick, there were serious medical errors, misdiagnoses, leaving important details out of consideration, our own mistakes associated with our ignorance, lack of timely reaction to changes, not being sufficiently observant, not trying to consult other veterinarians for additional advice, all added up to the known fact that life is a very mysterious, precious and complex thing, much more mysterious, precious and complex than we make it sound in the discussions here or anywhere else. This cat was a blessing to my family, that we cherished, but never appreciated as much as we do now. More lessons for my wife and me to learn from this intense experience we just went through, dealing with difficult health issues compounded by the complexity of the biological systems and the hastened / reductionist approach to diagnosing and treating diseases within the context of business organizations that employ doctors, which limit the time that the medical personnel can dedicate to each case, instead of letting it be an untainted professional passion that tries to exhaust all reasonable possibilities and does not rush the doctors to do their work under pressure, thus indirectly leading to potentially serious mistakes. This could occur in human medicine too. As a medical doctor you may understand this much better than I do. At the end of the day my wife and I understood that we can't control many things, if any at all. Human errors are part of life. We all make mistakes (except some brilliant interlocutors in this site). Now that's another chapter in my book. Probably more conclusions to draw from looking back at this in the days to come. PS. BTW, in my previous post (#84) I misspelled the word 'imagine' in the text "...could imagine a robot...". But you probably figured out what it meant.Dionisio_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio, My sincere condolences. As someone who cohabits with four cats and a dog, and has experienced such losses several times, I can feel your pain.Piotr_{January 30, 2015
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Dionisio: I am really sorry for your cat. Love for animals is a special grace. My three cats are a very, very important part of my life.gpuccio_{January 30, 2015
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gpuccio Yes, agree. On a subject closer to this thread, today my wonderful orange tabby cat passed away. My wife and I have wept uncontrollably. I wonder how the 'strong AI' folks could imaging a robot that would feel the way my wife and I feel today. Is there anything explained in the AI literature about that? How would that work? What kind of software would achieve that? Do you know of anyone who could answer these questions seriously?Dionisio_{January 29, 2015
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Dionisio: Yes, that's an interesting approach. The more I study the current epigenetic knowledge, the more I am overwhelmed by a deep sense of excitement and frustration at the same time. The excitement is due to the huge amount of new data about the rich complexity of epigenetic regulation networks. The frustration is due to the lack of "understanding of the procedures" that such a huge amount of data gives us. IOWs, we know a lot and understand very little. For exmaple, we know a lot about how differentiation is implemented, but almost nothing about what guides it. It is, IMO, a paradox generated by the unsuspected levels of complexity of the systems we are unraveling: we know much, but each new thing we find shows new depths in what we still don't know.gpuccio_{January 29, 2015
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Mio caro Dottore, I like your explanations in this discussion thread, but as usual, it takes me a long time to digest it all well. Now, here's an off-topic suggestion: Whenever you feel like taking a short break away from this difficult discussion you're engaged in with your 'nice' interlocutors, you might want to take a quick look at this: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-544919 This short article somehow reminded me of your 'procedures' concept. Did I understand it incorrectly? Mile grazie mio amico!Dionisio_{January 29, 2015
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Me_Think: OK, I am happy we agree.gpuccio_{January 29, 2015
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gpuccio @ 79 Yes :-) The moment you gave the TV example, there was no point discussing consciousness with you.Me_Think_{January 29, 2015
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Me_Think: OK, I am tired of you. I hope (for you) that you are only joking.gpuccio_{January 29, 2015
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gpuccio @ 77
That is not only silly, it is senseless. A signal can obviously be modulated by similar signals. In no way that implies that the reaction evoked by the signal is an “emergent property” of the signal.
So now you believe signals and chemical reactions are same?
So, the audio of a movie that I look at on my TV is not an emergent property of the movements of my thumb on the remote control, even if it can certainly be “tamed” by those movements. Is that clear?
The IR signal controlling the audio circuitry and your thumb are two different system (obviously). It is not part of TV circuitry, so , of course they can't be property of the same system - the example is not valid.Me_Think_{January 29, 2015
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Me_Think: Maybe you don't understand. The simple point in my #73 is that it is certainly possible to set up a chemical reaction which gives a signal for some further complex event, like turning on a TV set. It may be bizarre, but it is certainly possible. In the same way, specific chemical reactions in the neural circuitry can send a signal which evokes the conscious event of pain. The only silly thing is your statement that "Pain is a chemical reaction because it can be reduced by chemicals like Morphine, endorphins and endocannabinoids. If it was not an emergent reaction of chemicals, it couldn’t have been tamed by chemicals." That is not only silly, it is senseless. A signal can obviously be modulated by similar signals. In no way that implies that the reaction evoked by the signal is an "emergent property" of the signal. If you turn on a switch, what happens is not an emergent property of the switch. Even a child would understand that. So, the audio of a movie that I look at on my TV is not an emergent property of the movements of my thumb on the remote control, even if it can certainly be "tamed" by those movements. Is that clear?gpuccio_{January 28, 2015
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gpuccio @ 75
So, if I understand you well, the images that we see on an old CRT TV screen are an emergent property of the fluorescent chemicals, and have nothing to do with the circuitry, the wireless transmission of programs, and so on?
That is the only chemical pathway that could affect the function of the TV, which is to show images.Can you think of any other chemical reaction which has any bearing on images in TV ? If suddenly your example (@73) of chemical reaction controlling TV seems silly and bizarre to you, then I am with you!Me_Think_{January 28, 2015
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Me_think: So, if I understand you well, the images that we see on an old CRT TV screen are an emergent property of the fluorescent chemicals, and have nothing to do with the circuitry, the wireless transmission of programs, and so on? After all, as you say, "the images on screen is dependent on the chemical reaction of fluorescent screen when hit by the Cathode ray tube". So, according to your logic, "if it was not an emergent reaction of chemicals", it couldn’t be canceled when "the fluorescent chemicals fade off". Interesting, indeed...gpuccio_{January 28, 2015
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gpuccio @ 73
I can set a chemical reaction to trigger a TV set, and then affirm that the images I see on TV are an emergent property of the chemical reaction
The only chemical reaction I can envisage which could be an emergent property of a TV, is the Fluorescent chemicals on the screen of old CRT TVs. If the fluorescent chemicals fade off, there will be no images. You would need fresh coat of fluorescent chemicals. So yes, in that case the images on screen is dependent on the chemical reaction of fluorescent screen when hit by the Cathode ray tube, and could be considered an 'emergent' property.Me_Think_{January 28, 2015
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Me_Think: I believe that even you should realize how wrong your logic is. I can set a chemical reaction to trigger a TV set, and then affirm that the images I see on TV are an emergent property of the chemical reaction, because if I prevent the chemical reaction the TV does not start. My compliments.gpuccio_{January 28, 2015
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gpuccio @ 71,
Ketamine can induce states, like fire can induce pain. It is not the explanation of the states, any more than fire is the explanation of the pain.
Pain is a chemical reaction because it can be reduced by chemicals like Morphine, endorphins and endocannabinoids. If it was not an emergent reaction of chemicals, it couldn't have been tamed by chemicals.Me_Think_{January 28, 2015
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Me_Think: I am happy to labor, thank you. Ketamine can induce states, like fire can induce pain. It is not the explanation of the states, any more than fire is the explanation of the pain. See the last part of my post #69. Or just go on laboring as you prefer.gpuccio_{January 28, 2015
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