Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
My, my, Gregory! I don't think much of the accuracy of your sweeping comments about different generations, but if *I* had to make such a sweeping generalization, and were forced to base it solely on the characteristics of your typical reply to me (characteristics which several other people on UD have noted in many of your posts, and pointed out to you), I would say that my generation of academics was trained quite differently from your generation of academics. My generation was trained to say: "I agree with you about X, because ..." and "I disagree with you about Y, because ..." and to leave out the ad hominem remarks and gratuitous self-references. Apparently the young scholars who are coming up these days think that deliberate insults, motive-mongering, innuendo, and tones of mockery and hostility are a normal part of civilized intellectual exchange. Ah, well, fortunately for you, my generation is not long for this earth, so you won't have to endure our stodgy, Victorian ways much longer. And I'm sure the world will be much better off with a generation that is oh-so-careful about "sexist language" while being verbally brutal in a hundred other ways that my generation wasn't. Your zealous defense of your language was mostly unnecessary. I did not have any trouble understanding your *usage* of the term "privileged"; I was questioning only your *application* of the term (and the term "biased") to Russell. As I said to you, very gently and without rancor, it is quite possible that Russell is "biased" about many things, and that he unduly "privileges" this or that; my point was that it was insufficient to base such claims merely on the name of the title of his institution -- and that was the *only* reason you gave for your attack on Russell. I have no more to say about this, and won't pursue it. I do not recall ever saying that ID should be taught in philosophy or religious studies classrooms. First of all, if I *did* think that the public school system should expose students to ID, the vast majority of public schools in the US either never offer philosophy or religious studies courses at all, or offer them only sporadically, so that would be a very unreliable way to convey the material. Second, while ID can have important religious implications, it in itself has nothing to with religion. It is about design detection. It might make sense in ancient history class, in the sections on the discoveries of archaeology, since archaeologists have to make ID decisions routinely in their work. But since its main goal is to show the applicability of design notions to the world of nature, and since it can't be understood without some basic scientific knowledge, the main place it would be of any use -- if it were taught at all -- would be in science class -- in physics and chemistry to discuss fine-tuning, and in biology to discuss integrated, complex, organic systems. I say that this is where it would belong *if* it were taught in the school system -- I am *not* declaring that it *should* be taught in the school system. As for the ID leadership, it has explicitly renounced the goal of trying to force ID into the public school system. The belief that there is a secret plan to do so down the road is based on the "Wedge Document" which is now ancient, and it would require fresh, up-to-date documentary evidence to show that the majority of the ID leaders entertains any such plan now. If anyone has such fresh evidence, they are welcome to trot it out. In the meantime, I'd be content if ID was never mentioned in biology class, provided that the biology curriculum were updated to include evolutionary theory more recent than about 1985; the newest developments are going to blow neo-Darwinism away. The understanding of evolution pushed by Eugenie Scott, Ken Miller, Richard Dawkins, and Jerry Coyne (not to mention the biologists at BioLogos) is laughably primitive, yesterday's warmed-over theory, the Modern Synthesis of about 1945 papered over with some recent genomics charts to give a new look to very old and stale ideas of evolutionary mechanism -- the equivalent of putting a modern Toyota body around an 1890s Daimler engine. You say that the ID people should pay more attention to the human experience of designing things. Funny, Stephen Meyer talks about that experience almost *ad nauseam* in his book. Have you read it? And Bill Dembski talks about many examples of human design, in both *The Design Inference* and *No Free Lunch*. Have you read either of those? And how many times has Behe talked about the designed character of the mousetrap? Oh, and let's not forget his lengthy discussion of design in his podcast debate with Barr. And didn't I already mention Gil Dodgen's frequent comments here about his experience as an engineer and the light it sheds on the plausibility of evolution by "random mutation"? And perhaps you remember Dave Scot, an expert in computer systems, who advanced similar arguments on this site. I think that ID people are doing plenty of application of "the human experience of designing things." Perhaps you just haven't noticed. As for your reference to a book of yours, I do not have my exact words in front of me, and cannot remember which of scores of threads the discussion was on, but if I recall correctly, I asked you for your opinion on biological evolution -- on whether or not macroevolution had occurred, and, if it did occur, whether, in your opinion, it occurred wholly through natural means, or whether some divine intervention was involved. I probably also asked you if you thought that the mechanisms you proposed were compatible with historical, orthodox Christian theological doctrines of God's providence, governance, etc. Are you telling me that you have written a book endorsing macroevolution and discussing its biological mechanisms, and also proving that those mechanisms are compatible with God's omnipotence, governance, and providence? If so, I will gladly read a book like that. But you have given the repeated impression that your academic training is neither in theology nor in the biological or other natural sciences, but in the social sciences, which makes it unlikely that you would have written a book answering such questions. If I am wrong, if your book discusses in detail the biological critiques of neo-Darwinism by people such as Newman and Lima de Faria and Shapiro, and in detail the theologies of creation of people such as Calvin and Wesley and Luther and Augustine and Barth and Schleiermacher and Whitehead, then I would be interested in learning your opinions on those matters. So please give me a rough, one-paragraph abstract of the contents of the book, and indicate what percentage of the book is devoted exclusively to the subjects I have indicated, and we'll take it from there.Timaeus
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
“It was not my intention to interpret you uncharitably. I literally did not know what your complaint against Russell was. I start to understand it better now.” – Timaeus It is rarely people’s intentions that make them interpret uncharitably. In this case, I suspect there is a generational thing involved here; you are confronting the contemporary language of youth with the language of by-gone years in terms of relevance and currency. It is quite common nowadays to use the term ‘privilege’ the way I did and I’m confident that those under 35-40 yrs on this list understood exactly what I meant. Probably many 50+ understand it also as they participate in leading-edge conversations of this era. In fact, the IDM understands this quite well, Timaeus, and this shows once again that you are not and why you are not ‘within it,’ other than culture war cheerleading. “Why do you use the word “privileges” — which tends to suggest an unwarranted favorable treatment?” – Timaeus So, what you are suggesting is that the book by G. Gonzalez and J. Richards – “The Privileged Planet” – is meant to deem the Earth has ‘unwarranted favourable treatment’? This makes no sense. Why do you think the Earth’s privileged position is ‘unwarranted,’ Timaeus? B. Carter’s inventive concept duo (much like ‘intelligent’ plus ‘design’) likewise supports the following meaning: “Although our [human] situation is not necessarily central, it is inevitably privileged to some extent.” Do you mean to say that Carter was implying ‘unwarranted favourable treatment’ to human beings with his anthropic principle? “The fact that a person is at the moment concentrating on a particular goal doesn’t imply that the person denies the validity of other goals, or even minimizes their importance.” – Timaeus Right; it means that the person doesn’t properly give them notice and thus most probably misses their significance in the broader conversation by paying them little-to-no attention. Russell’s CTNS institute, founded before the internet was invented, is of the outdated ‘natural sciences vs. religion’ variety. Today we need new language to face the challenges and opportunities of ‘intelligent design’ and ‘design’ language in non-natural scientific fields, where the real action is (in this USAmerican election year). “The central [natural] scientific focus of CTNS is on developments in physics, cosmology, evolutionary biology, and genetics, with additional topics in the neurosciences, the environmental sciences, and mathematics.” – CTNS (Russell’s natural science vs. religion dialectic organisation) Have you read the text “Situated Knowledges” by Donna Haraway, Timaeus? This would help educate you to confront this monumental topic and give you a clue as to what I meant about Russell’s privileged prioritization of fields; it likewise might help correct your sexist ‘he, his’ language. But hey, writing ‘she, her’ was not something that the generation educated in the 1950’s and 60’s paid much attention or respect to. In this case, my language is much closer and kosher to the IDM’s than is yours, Timaeus. Timaeus, do you remember when you asked me a few months back what my position was on a certain topic, requesting something positive from me instead of merely negative or critical of ID, and I told you that I’d just written a book about it? I asked if you’d be willing to read it. You didn’t acknowledge me though I directly answered your request for proof, a question which was repeated to check the authenticity of your refusal to actually engage. That’s when I sensed that you did not really seem interested in truth or reality, but rather in playing some kind of insular rhetorical game as a neo-Greek philosophist and retired historian of ideas who by sad fate lives in the electronic-information age. This is now obvious as you taunt people to go read modern philosophers common to your ‘history of ideas’ trade while defending ‘pre-modern’ thinking in a ‘post-modern’ age. But hey, some people are attracted to ID just because they like to take-on and to project the image of being an underdog! You say you do not defend the scientificity of intelligent design/Intelligent Design, but that you would like to see it taught or discussed in philosophy or religious studies classes, while the IDM leadership insists on entering (eventually) ID into natural science classrooms. Do you now “start to understand it better” what I meant by ‘privilege’ or do I need to send you to read texts that are new, fresh, up-to-date, which people today are facing and which predominantly define their language, perception and personal understanding, instead of your continued appeals to ‘pre-modern’ thought as an escape from today’s reality? Intelligent design was crafted for a new generation of young thinkers (cf. Dembski 2004), based on the idea that an older generation of (neo-Darwinian) scholars would need to retire before ID could gain the upper hand in the cultural realm in addition to natural sciences. Then, eventually it would also trickle-up to social sciences and humanities. We are the ones who hold the keys here, Timaeus, not you. I’m sorry to harp on this Timaeus because I think perhaps you’re actually a decent guy. But I do not value or respect your words attempting to define what is or is not of ‘substance’ in my messages, given how many times you’ve avoided what I consider of substance in them directed at you. I find IDM-ID people much more on the cutting-edge than you; for example, they know what ‘privileged’ means in context, without imputing unkind motives or acting condescendingly. However, we are on the following completely agreed, when you say: “It is the human experience of designing things that enables us to talk about [unembodied/external] design.” One might think the IDM would thus heed more attention and resources to studying and promoting the “human experience of designing [process] things.” Why do you think it doesn’t, Timaeus? Doing thus, it could possibly uncover the unwarranted and/or mis-directed privileging of natural sciences that is demonstrated by Russell’s obviously un-holistic (western) view of ‘science and religion’ discourse. It would bring ‘reflexive’ knowledge to the forefront of relevance and vanquish ‘objectivistic naturalism’ to the bleachers for popcorn and hot-dogs while the game is still on and in its most heated and hopeful moments. “I’m 100% onside with you on this, Gregory. But will you do me a favor, and make the same pitch to the New Atheists and the biologists over at BioLogos? They haven’t yet seen your point.” Again, Timaeus, New Atheists are not my preferred audience, though it appears you continually seek their validation. As it is, I am indeed ready to promote and publish the work of colleagues regarding New Atheism and ID. And I am also willing to pitch to a historian of science, anthropologist and biologists over at BioLogos about the experiences of humans-making-things. Are you willing to do the same, given the art of sock puppetry you are currently practising, having never published a peer-reviewed article about ID in an academic journal, for all your time spent blogging as a pre-modern scholar on a site not of your own making? Your King is in check from multiple sides, you've lost your Queen and pose no offensive threat in the match. This is how rappers speak in the 21st century, faithfully identifying their territory and challenging others (like Timaeus-the-Greek) to face with due sincerity their rhythm and the rhymes. Does Timaeus have an ID-rap to share with us? Or is that likewise not the preferred language of his pre-modern, pre-ID generation?Gregory
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
03:22 AM
3
03
22
AM
PDT
tragic: Actually, Origen in the third century denied the literalness of some of the statements of Genesis. Read Book 4 of De Principiis. (Of course, as VJTorley has shown, Origen's anti-literalism wasn't as extensive as many TEs and others have claimed; but he is certainly anti-literal about some things.) And apparently you did not notice my comment above about Augustine's denial of literal days of creation. So it is not simply the moderns who have questioned the appropriateness of reading every narrative detail in Genesis 1-11 literally. What you are not seeing is that the motivation for not reading Genesis literally does not have to be a capitulation to modern thought. That is the motivation of the biologists over at BioLogos, because they have capitulated to neo-Darwinism and therefore are compelled to read Genesis non-literally, whether the text can sustain such a reading or not. It wasn't the motivation of Origen or Augustine, and I doubt it's the motivation of StephenB. The people in the latter group have good textual and general philosophical and theological reasons for reading parts of Genesis non-literally. Be that as it may, my comments about ancients and moderns was not in reference to the reading of Genesis, but was addressed to your notion of "reason." If you want further explication of what is meant by "reason" in the ancient Greek and Christian traditions, I would suggest that you do some reading in Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, and some of the leading scholarly commentaries thereon. What you depicted as "reason" was straight out of Hobbes, Bacon, Hume, and Kant. I don't mean you got it directly from them; I mean that modern thought, from the highest levels of academia down to the lowest levels of bar-room debating, is saturated with that understanding of "reason" -- and that means that most churchgoing folk share in it, too. I've rarely met a Protestant clergyman, liberal or fundamentalist, who hasn't bought completely into it and doesn't spread it through his sermons and other activities. You'll find a semi-popular account of this saturation process in the writings of Nancy Pearcey. I don't entirely agree with all of her views, but if the things I am saying seem utterly strange and counter-intuitive to you, she might be the best place to begin.Timaeus
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
09:40 PM
9
09
40
PM
PDT
"Pre-modern..." That's a laugh. As if it wasn't the moderns who first denied the historical interpretation of Genesis.tragic mishap
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
06:29 PM
6
06
29
PM
PDT
Timaeus, you have summarized my position very well @202 and 204. Thank you.StephenB
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
09:33 AM
9
09
33
AM
PDT
tragic: Since StephenB is a practicing and very conservative Catholic, he obviously does not think that Genesis or any part of the Bible is "BS." He is not challenging the veracity of the Bible; he is challenging the adequacy of the Young Earth interpretation of the Bible. StephenB has not said that the writer of Genesis "didn't care about the truth." He has said that the writer of Genesis did not intend certain things to be understood as historical chronicle. But I am sure that StephenB believes that the writer of Genesis cared just as much about the truth as modern people do. You seem to be equating "true writing" with "historical writing." But much true writing is not historical writing. Shakespeare's King Lear is one of the truest pieces of writing ever set down on paper, but it is not an accurate history of any king who ever lived. To "defend" the truth of King Lear by trying to find evidence of a real historical Goneril, Cordelia, etc. would be to seriously misunderstand Shakespeare's purpose. So rather than start from the assumption that the six days are meant to be a chronicle of six calendar days, it seems to me wiser to ask how "days" function within the narrative of Genesis 1. It is clear that they are an organizing device for the elements described in the Creation. The first task is to understand that organizational function, and only afterwards to ask -- if the question is still relevant at all, once one understands the organizational function -- whether they are also true chronological indicators. On the point about "reason" I will let StephenB speak for himself, but it seems clear that you, like most Protestants and especially like most conservative evangelical Protestants, are employing the modern, utilitarian, truncated notion of reason as logic or reckoning, whereas StephenB apparently has in mind the fuller, richer, pre-modern Christian and philosophical understanding of reason as a touch-point between the soul and reality. As a confirmed pre-modern, I share StephenB's understanding. And I think that common reason is what makes it possible for well-intentioned Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. to have a genuine religious dialogue.Timaeus
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
05:12 PM
5
05
12
PM
PDT
As usual the focus is on Genesis 1 when the real argument is Genesis 5 and 11. But anyway...
How can reason test the reasonableness of a world view if reason cannot attain some measure of truth on its own?
I'll tell you how. 1. Make your assumptions. These assumptions you must take on faith. 2. Through the use of Reason draw rational conclusions from these assumptions. 3. Compare your conclusions to your observations. 4. Repeat 1-3 until you have a satisfactory number of possible assumption sets which lead more or less to the conclusions that match most closely to the observations. 5. Decide which set of assumptions leads to conclusions which best fit the observed data. There you go. But there are at least two problems with this method: A) We have not made all possible observations. In fact we have made a very limited number of observations compared to the number possible. Therefore we have a very limited amount of evidence to compare with our rationally drawn conclusions. B) Taking A) into account, there are nearly always multiple sets of assumptions which will rationally lead to conclusions which compare favorably to the observed evidence. In other words, picking between differing sets of assumptions is largely a matter of opinion, since there are large numbers of assumption sets which can be constructed that fit the small amount of available evidence. No theory will be perfect, but that means that which one you choose is largely opinion, because each view has different strengths and weaknesses when compared to the evidence. And Stephen, I am actually somewhat offended by the insinuation that Moses or whoever wrote Genesis didn't care about the truth. Of course they weren't scientists. They were historians. It's insulting to the human race to believe that ancient people didn't care about the truth as much as we modern people do. Of course there are certain scientific questions we could never answer by reading Genesis. But that doesn't make it complete BS.tragic mishap
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PDT
StephenB (201): I like your response to tjguy here. The second part of your response is essentially the point that the Pope was making in his Regensburg address. Without a general standard of reason, interreligious dialogue is impossible; or, at best, all that such dialogue can be is a dogmatic restatement of everyone's position, over and over again, with the partisans of each position hoping that God will suddenly convert the unbeliever in a flash of non-rational insight. Of course, this is what many Protestants, in particular those of the Barthian variety, in fact believe: evangelism can do nothing more than preach the Word, which is beyond reason; and it's God's job, not the job of the apologist, to make the word effective. But I'm with you; such a view of revelation and reason not only destroys the possibility of natural theology, and makes interreligious dialogue fundamentally insincere; it also ignores the fact that the second person of the Trinity is the Word, the Logos, and that He is intrinsically rational. As to the first part, I agree with that as well. The Bible must be read in the light of all we know about ancient literature, ancient culture, etc. We have to understand what the notion of "truth" was for the writers and readers. It wasn't the modern, mechanical idea of truth as "fact" -- which would imply that every single narrative sentence of the Bible can be lifted out of context and verified for its fidelity to a past event, in a one-to-one correspondence. That idea, held by both fundamentalists and Enlightenment skeptics, misunderstands the mode of ancient religious writing. There is a clear truth in Genesis 1, a truth which is not altered by the fact that the writer of Genesis 1, or at the very least, the readers for whom he intended the work -- held to erroneous views about firmaments and waters and windows in the heavens (erroneous views that are found in the Flood story as well). The truth is that God created the world in accord with a design, and that he set it up so that all its inhabitants would have means of sustenance, and hence owe their continued existence to him; and that man was created with special privilege and special purpose, to rule over parts of the creation as the image-bearer of God. That truth is taken up later into the Christian faith, whereas the view that there is a dome in the sky through which rain pours is quietly dropped, being inessential. The six-day scheme of creation is one of the many details which are not essential to the truth of the story. If the creation had been described as taking place in twelve days (corresponding symbolically, perhaps, to the twelve tribes of Israel), the main point of the creation story would be unaltered. It doesn't matter how many days God took, or what was the length of the days, or even whether the days were meant as chronological units at all; none of that affects the overall teaching -- the dependence of all Creation on God, and the special role of man in the created cosmos. There is a tremendous fear in American evangelical circles that if even a single narrative statement in Genesis 1-11 does not correspond to "historical fact," the entire Christian revelation will be proved untrustworthy. But of course this is a modern obsession. Augustine, who certainly thought the Bible was trustworthy, thought that the creation of the world was instantaneous and that the sequential representation was a pedagogical device of God for helping the simple folk to understand. It was never a requirement of Christian faith that every single narrative prose sentence in the Bible be treated as an empirical proposition.Timaeus
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
tjguy, I apologize for the delayed response on the subject of Biblical hermeneutics: First, I agree that the bible contains true revelation without error. It is not simply a series of stories that have nothing to do withr reality. In principle are in accord on that point. So, we can move on from there. One hermeneutical principle I hold to is that God reveals himself according to the cultural concepts, categories, and mindsets of his listeners. Yes, He is, in another sense, speaking to all of us in Scripture, but first and foremost His audience consists (consisted) of those whom He was [is] seeking to transform. On matters of ethics, for example, He does not present his complete doctrine in the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments, though meaningful to everyone, does not provide enough information on which to base a complete life of love. It focuses almost exclusively on behavior and de-emphasizes the problem of intentions, which, as it turns out, is even more important. For teachings of that texture, we need to consult the Sermon on the Mount and other moral truths contained in the New Testament. God withheld the more subtle ethical points in the Old Testament because He had to take His people from where they were. You cannot speak of loving your enemies, crucifying lustful thoughts, and and controlling your anger to someone who is on the verge of worshiping a golden calf. Before God transforms a good man into a saint {New Testament], He must first transform a crude man into a good man {Old Testament]. Does this mean that the Old Testament contains error. No, not at all. As it is with moral development, so it is with intellectual development. God must take people from where they are. Just as human beings develop morally to the point where they can understand monogamy, they must also develop intellectually in order to defend truth. In keeping with that requirement, God reveals himself to people according to their cultural concepts, categories and mindsets, meaning that His revelation DEVELOPS along with the intellectual and cultural capacity of human beings. Throughout time, we have improved on our understanding of the world and our methods for understanding it. According to one hermeneutical principle,“whatever is received is received in the manner of the receiver.” Theological Robert Spitzer puts it this way: "If you were just learning to add and subtract and I put a series of algebraic functions on the board, you would not be able to understand them because you do not have the categorical apparatus to understand the intricacies of algebraic equations. You’d be looking for the numbers and trying to figure out why there are letters like “x” in the middle of the math problem." Precisely. . Again, I draw from Fr. Spitzer: "God had to wait until the categories of mathematics and method were appropriately broad and complex to accommodate a scientific worldview. When it came, his revelation was intrinsic to it. We don’t need to twist that evidence to find God – he is writ large in the equations of the Big Bang, the physical evidence for a beginning of the universe (even if there were a pre-Big Bang period), the second law of thermo-dynamics (entropy), and other clues. Indeed, if we find that a multiverse requires as much fine-tuning as the phenomenon it is trying to explain (say, in the slow roll of bubble universes necessary to prevent collisions), then there will be even more clues about God’s super-calculating intelligence." Naturally, all these considerations should prompt us to ask whether Moses was concerned about presenting a scientifically accurate view of God's creative act when He writes in Genesis. Should he have anticipated Newton's account of science or Einsteins amendments? Or would it not make more sense to accentuate eternal truths that are not vulnerable to science's changing paradigms? Among those eternal truths found in Genesis, we can include the points I made in my earlier post. Am I absolutely certain I am right about this? No. It may well be just as you say. I am open to the idea that God made the word in six days and that the principle of "uniformatarianism is false. If you are asking about the proportions involved, I am about 70-30 on the side of an old earth, but I remain open to alternative points of view. For my part, the value of anthropology, geology, and paleontology are overrated. More often than not, they are used to question God's eternal truths rather than confirm them. However, that is not the fault of the scientific method, but is rather a problem with materialist ideology. On the matter of the flood, I accept it as a historical event because it is presented as a historical event. In keeping with that point, however, I am open to the prospect that it may not have been a world-wide flood because I am not sure that Scripture requires that interpretation. as I said earlier, IF it requires that interpretation, then I accept it on that basis. Since I accept the Biblical teaching that God reveals himself in nature, I also accept the principle that we can attain limited levels of truths independently of Scripture. What good is a natural revelation that depends solely on Divine revelation for its legitimacy? Such a revelation is not a complement to, but is merely a derivative of, Divine revelation. Without God's natural revelation, the apologist is without any intellectual tools to bring a pagan to belief in God. Indeed, without reason and God's natural revelation, one cannot even present reasons for accepting the Bible over the Koran or any other book that claims to be holy. How can reason test the reasonableness of a world view if reason cannot attain some measure of truth on its own? By what standard does the Christian tell the Muslim or the Hindu that his world view makes the most sense if there is no objective independent standard for discerning what does, indeed, make sense? It is on this point that I think we most strongly disagree. I think science should respect theology and even be informed by it, but I don't think scientific methodology (or philosophical investigations for that matter) should begin with faith in Biblical truths; I think both should begin with faith in self-evident truths, the first principles of right reason, and evidence from observation.StephenB
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PDT
For StephenB: Finally I remembered to post this. Here are the reasons that I take the plain meaning of the words of Genesis as the meaning intended by the author. • The overwhelming meaning for the Hebrew word “day” when used with the words “morning” or “evening” is a literal 24 hour day, even when not used in historical narrative. This is very strong textual evidence for the literal reading. • Also when used with a number, it always has a literal meaning in the Bible. (Zech. 14:7 is a possible exception. This is in a prophetic book and looks to be in the form of a chiastic structure with v. 6-7 being the center. There is a wide variety of opinion as to what the word “day” means here. It certainly is not sufficient cause to question the overall pattern of Scripture. Often it is translated as “unique day” instead of “one day”.) In Genesis it is in a numbered series and numbered series always refer to a literal meaning in the Bible without exception. • When yom appears in the plural form, when the context demands it, it can refer to longer periods of time. Ie “days of Noah”, “ancient of days”, “as in the days gone by”, etc. But the word is used in the singular form in Genesis which argues against this type of interpretation. • It is interesting to think about what other words Moses could have used. Of the 13 words referring to time in the Hebrew language, 11 of them refer to a long period of time. If Moses had said “and there were days of morning and evening” or used day in conjunction with the word “olam” so that it would read “and there were days of old”, than that would allow for a long period of time, but he used yom in the singular form. (It should be noted that yom can refer to a longer period of time even in the singular form when the context demands it. There are perhaps 60 verses – all in prophetic writings or the poetic books of the Bible – where this is true. It is also important to note that none of these usages are combined with a number or are modified with the words “morning” or “evening”. So the burden of proof is on OECers to show why this should be the preferred interpretation in Genesis 1. • He could also have chosen words that indicate a creation starting in the past but continuing on into the future which would support the idea of theistic evolution where God creates over long periods of time. If these had been chosen by the Holy Spirit, then it might read like this: “And it was generations of days and nights” or “And it was a continuation of days”, but these words were not chosen either.(olam, tamid, dor, ad) • An ambiguous reference to time could have been used that would not specify the length at all. Using “yom” with light and darkness where light and darkness are used in a figurative sense “and it was a day of light and darkness” or “in the day of the Lord”. Or the word “et” for time could have been combined with day and night as it is in 3 other verses of Scripture, and sometimes refers to an ambiguous period of time, but God chose the word “yom”. • Exodus 20:11 Here God tells us what the length of the days are very clearly. Letting Scripture interpret Scripture is a very important principle of hermeneutics. • The Bible connects Genesis 1-11 with Genesis 12-50 with the genealogies showing that both are historical narrative. • There are at least 25 NT references to Gen. 1-11 and they are always treated as real history. One example I have given previously is when Jesus himself refers to Genesis 1 & 2 in Mark 10:6-9 when he was questioned about divorce, so He obviously took them as history. He said that humans were created as male and female at the beginning of creation, not in the last 0.009% of historical time. How can this be interpreted to mean long ages? • There is an abundant use of the Hebrew waw consecutive preterite verbs which is a clear characteristic of Hebrew historical narrative. Besides this evidence, if God intended us to understand "yom" a non-literal sense, then it seems like He would be guilty of misleading His people for thousands of years. Certainly God could have/should have done a better job of communicating His truth in the very first and foundational section of His Word. The OEC view, whether TE or ID or some other variation, means that we have Charles Lyell and his anti-Moses evolutionist friends to thank for a proper interpretation of Genesis.
And yet Stephen, you yourself said that if a flood occurred the geologists should take that into account. Lyell rejected that idea and came up with the idea of uniformitarianism. He did exactly what you said he should not do and still you think the uniformitarian framework is the best framework for doing historical science?
I guess I'm having trouble figuring out how you can hold to uniformitarianism and a global flood at the same time. Those positions seem mutually exclusive in my mind.
Don’t you think that the God who created the reality we see all around us is also capable of describing it to us accurately? In the Bible, God makes authoritative statements about reality. Even when He uses figurative language to communicate to us, still He intends to communicate a literal truth to us through that and He does so in a way that that meaning will not be missed. Jesus’ use of parables is a good illustration of this. If Genesis is not to be read in a literal manner, then Scriptural interpretation seems almost hopeless. Anyway, in my view, the OEC view violates the doctrine of the perspicuity/clarity of Scriptures and makes God look bad for misleading His people for so many years, plus it violates lots of Hebrew grammar rules as mentioned above. OK, well I left you with a backlog of posts to respond to, but especially I'd like to hear how you can maintain belief in an old earth while remaining faithful to the Bible and holding to a global flood.tjguy
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
Gregory: It was not my intention to interpret you uncharitably. I literally did not know what your complaint against Russell was. I start to understand it better now. Still, to make clear to you why I was confused, let us look at exactly what you wrote: "Obviously he privileges ‘natural sciences’ even in the title of the organisation he founded – Theology and NATURAL Sciences. Thus, a bias in his views of ‘nature’ regarding ‘science’ is noteworthy ..." Why do you use the word "privileges" -- which tends to suggest an unwarranted favorable treatment? If I founded an organization called "Society for the Promotion of Thai Cooking", does the name of my society "privilege" Thai cooking over Greek cooking, Polish cooking, etc.? That doesn't follow. I may love Greek cooking and Polish cooking just as much as Thai cooking; I may love them even more. I may have founded the society for Thai cooking merely because that is an area where, in my view, the public has less knowledge and needs more help, not because I am too blind to see the virtues of other kinds of cooking. So, too, perhaps Russell investigates "natural science and religion" rather than "social science and religion" or "art history and religion" because he thinks that "natural science and religion" is an area that at the moment requires particular public discussion, not because he thinks natural science is more important than social science or art history. I see no "bias" or "privileging" merely in the fact that an organization is dedicated to a particular theme. You might as well say that the Audubon Society "privileges" birds and has a "bias" against human beings, or that lawyers "privilege" law over medicine as a human activity. I think that such expressions would be unjust. Again, I am not trying to be quarrelsome. I am not denying that Russell, or any human being, has biases. But I don't see how you can get "bias" out of the mere fact that he works for an organization that has a particular aim or goal. The fact that a person is at the moment concentrating on a particular goal doesn't imply that the person denies the validity of other goals, or even minimizes their importance. OK, so that explains why I was confused. Now to the point of substance in your reply. It is the human experience of designing things that enables us to talk about design. And yes, of course, the natural scientist does not automatically or necessarily have the deepest insight into the nature of "design." I would say that those who have the deepest insight into the nature of design are those who have, at a minimum, at least *some* experience of *actually designing* something. In other words, people like engineers and architects, but also composers of symphonies, designers of complex theme parks, magazine editors, computer programmers, etc. These people have first-hand knowledge of what human beings are doing when they design things. They know what design can do, and they know when it is necessary. Now it is interesting, is it not, that a very large number of supporters of ID -- I'm not talking primarily about the ten or so publically well-known figures, but the thousands of back-up players -- are in fields such as engineering and computer science? Many of the commenters here (e.g., Gil Dodgen) are in that category. When you eat, breathe and drink "design" on an everyday basis, you acquire a very good sense of what design can do that chance and natural laws can't. You know, for example, that a word processor couldn't accidentally mutate in a stepwise fashion into a spreadsheet, by a series of accidental changes in the code. On the other hand, a geneticist who has never so much as fixed a bicycle in his life, and knows only how to read genome charts, and says: "Hey, this chimp genome looks a lot like the human one -- so we must have a common ancestor with chimps" is not the right person to ask about how a chimp or a human could be *built*, step by step, out of a common ancestor. Someone who builds things with tight design constraints for a living would have a much better idea of what is feasible. Such a person would know that it is not just a question of mutating some genes randomly, then counting on "drift" to propagate them, until they fortuitously assemble into a human pattern; such a person knows that all the intermediate stages must be technically viable, must meet engineering constraints, must be able to survive in the intermediate environments. Geneticists, per se, know zero about that. They aren't physiologists, and they aren't developmental biologists with expertise in epigenetics, and they aren't ecologists with expertise on what makes for survival. Without that knowledge, they can't possibly explain how you can build a human from a common ancestor. The most perfect knowledge of every genome map available doesn't give us that sort of information. Yet who are the neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorists? Geneticists, mostly, lacking the other biological specialties I mentioned, and in addition, with almost zero training in engineering, architecture, musical or artistic composition, or anything involving design. What have Falk, Venema, Dawkins, Coyne, Lewontin, etc. ever designed or built in their lives? What experience have they of the thousands of failures that designers and testers routinely encounter? Yet these people, who have never created a thing themselves, either a new biological entity or even a new toothbrush, are *sure* that random changes plus "natural selection" can create anything out of anything, given enough time. So yes, Gregory, I agree with you -- knowledge of designed things, and how they are designed, and constraints on design, are necessary to discuss whether or not biological evolution could proceed without design. And natural scientists aren't always the most experienced people when it comes to design. That's why I'm very pleased with the high degree of interaction within the ID movement between biologists and biochemists, on one hand, and engineers, architects, information theorists, and others (I know of ID supporters who are theatrical producers, poets, and musical composers as well). Already the experience of human designing is entering into biological science. As James Barham has shown in other columns here, biological journal articles -- even those written by atheists with contempt for ID -- crawl with teleological language borrowed from human experience of designed, constructed things. The biologists, with every motive to keep design language out, given their Darwinian prejudices, can't keep the barbarian outside the gates. Biological systems, by their very nature, *invite* design language. And as more and more engineers and computer scientists apply their experience in design fields to the understanding of organic nature, the amount of design language will only increase. There is nothing that BioLogos or the New Atheists can do to stop this. The phenomena themselves cry out for this approach. So by all means, let us supplement our natural science with the experience of human design. Let's interpret nature in the light of what we have learned from engineers, programmers, musicians, playwrights, inventors, etc. Let's supplement the narrower training of the natural scientists with the insights derived from other areas of human experience. I'm 100% onside with you on this, Gregory. But will you do me a favor, and make the same pitch to the New Atheists and the biologists over at BioLogos? They haven't yet seen your point.Timaeus
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
01:58 AM
1
01
58
AM
PDT
Timaeus and Ted, First, let it be noted, given nullasalus' prior complaints to me for speaking my disciplinary language, that Timaeus brought up 'social sciences' in this thread, not I. I merely highlighted that 'natural sciences' do not exhaust the definition of 'sciences.' That more people here at UD do not see the relevance of this reminder is frankly surprising given the expressed desire by Phillip Johnson and many of the other ID leaders to challenge 'naturalism'. By highlighting the limits of natural science in contrast to all sciences (i.e. including sciences of 'non-natural' or 'extra-natural'), the claim that 'science is restricted to studying what is natural' is quite obviously only a partial definition of 'science.' Do folks here not see that as a significant concession for naturalists to make? I was not suggesting Russell should write amateurly about social science. Some charity or display of understanding on your part, Timaeus, about my legitimate reason for pointing out the meaning of CTNS and what Russell focuses on would help in our dialogue. Highlighting Russell's bias (and we all have biases, Timaeus and myself included) is relevant to the question I put to Ted Davis about 'historical sciences.' That is the context in which Russell's approach was raised given that Ted is currently appealing to Russell's work at BioLogos and now here. Adding to #192, are 'historical sciences' in Ted's view just repackaged 'natural sciences'; are all historical sciences forms of natural science? Meyer, for instance, refers to geology, palaeontology and archaeology as 'historical sciences.' But doesn't *any* science that deals with history then deserve the label 'historical science'? Aren't there disciplines other than natural sciences that try to "infer history from its results"? If you don't see the significance of this line/network of questioning, Timaeus, let me spell it out for you more clearly. This leads eventually to a claim that scientists who are not 'natural scientists' can actually better understand the core meaning of 'intelligent design' (which is directed mainly toward biology and origins of life, leveraged by engineering and information sciences language) than can 'natural scientists.' As a person who has openly questioned the scientificity of 'design' and suggested willingness to include ID in philosophy or religious studies arenas, Timaues, it would be a surprise if you didn't acknowledge and support this.Gregory
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
11:32 PM
11
11
32
PM
PDT
Gregory: I would guess that Russell speaks only about "natural science," rather than social science, because natural science is the science that he knows. It shows proper intellectual modesty not to write in areas in which one is not trained, so I don't see what your objection is here. Would you rather that Russell wrote amateurishly about social science, than knowledgeably about natural science? In fact, I would think you would be glad that he puts the adjective "natural" in front of "science." Many natural scientists habitually write "science" instead of "natural science," as if "natural science" is the only "science." They thus indirectly snub the social sciences. By clearly identifying his concern as "natural science," he is not denying that other things might legitimately be called "science." He is not denying, for example, that sociology or economics can be legitimately called "sciences." He's merely limiting his discussion to theology and *natural* science. This seems to me to be honesty in advertising on his part, and to have no negative implications for social sciences. I think that social sciences, at their best, are every bit as legitimate as forms of knowledge as natural science. But I don't see how they come into the questions that Russell is trying to answer. He is trying to deal with how God interacts with electrons and nuclei and genomes, not with social questions. I don't expect Max Weber or Emile Durkheim or B. F. Skinner to explain how God guides organic evolution, and I don't expect Russell to explain the phenomena of class or hierarchy or slavery or propaganda or free markets. So I'm having trouble grasping your apparent objection. What else would you want Russell to do, other than what he is doing? What else should someone trained in physics and theology, trying to understand divine action in organic evolution, be talking about?Timaeus
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
StephenB: I'm not as hostile to Russell as you apparently are. I think that in the end I will probably disagree with at least part of his account of divine action in evolution, but I find him much more thoughtful and careful than the typical BioLogos TE. First, read the excerpt given in Part I of the Russell series on BioLogos. Russell's remarks there on theology, philosophy, and history of science are more accurate, more scholarly, more nuanced, than anything ever written on Biologos by Falk, Giberson, Louis, etc. His remarks on the influence of Kantian thought are excellent (and other TEs would do well to think about them, as most of them are far more Kantian than they know), and his polite rebuke of Barthianism is deftly put (some other TEs would do well to think about that as well, and besides, Barthianism ought to be rebuked on every possible occasion). His questioning of the whole framework, bequeathed to us by Hume etc., of "miracles" vs. "natural laws", is worth thinking about, as many TEs, in particular BioLogos TEs, for all their criticism of ID and creationism regarding miracles, operate unconsciously within that framework. Now, regarding this passage in your comment: "He often contradicts himself. In response to a question about Simpson’s famous quote, ["evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind"] Russell responds by saying, “From a scientific perspective, true; from a theological perspective, false.”. Only a confused mind could hold such a self-contradictory idea." As the statement stands, I would agree with you that this answer is confused. But based on what I know of Russell's view (and assuming he still holds to something like the position he held in his essay in the *Perspectives on an Evolving Creation* book), I think that this statement does not adequately capture his actual view, but is only loose and sloppy shorthand. His actual view *seems* to be that God *does* act in the evolutionary process, and in a way that is *above and beyond* his normal action in sustaining natural processes. In other words, Russell sees, in addition to God's *general* divine action (in upholding nature), God's *special* divine action, as guiding the evolutionary process. But the special divine action is not visible to the tools of science, because it operates "at the quantum level." So, for example, a mutation crucial to the evolution of man might be the product of direct divine action, but because the cause of the mutation (say, a radioactive emission) appears, as far as science can tell, to be "random," there is no scientific way of attributing the mutation to God, and no scientific way of affirming that God is steering the process. That doesn't mean God *isn't* steering the process; it means that science can't verify that. Another way of putting this is: for Russell, God's action in evolution *makes a difference*. The pattern of mutations would be different, if nature were left only to "general" divine action (the "laws"), than it actually is, because "special" divine action, though invisible to our measuring instruments, is guiding evolution to a designed end. That is quite different from the "open theism" flirted with by many TEs, in which there *is* no designed end to the evolutionary process, because God lets nature experiment on its own, gives creation its "freedom" etc. For Russell, it is correct to say that evolution is "providentially guided," whereas for most of the BioLogos TEs, the term "providence" is used vacuously, as an all-purpose theological cover-up for intellectual contradictions regarding guided/unguided events. If my analysis of Russell's position is correct, then Russell was being sloppy in the answer you quote above. The word "false" should be replaced by "indeterminable." What Russell *should* have said is: "From a scientific perspective, *indeterminable*; from a theological perspective, false." That is, science can't say whether or not God steered the mutations, but we know from theology that he did. This position may or may not be satisfactory to you, Stephen. It's not entirely satisfactory to me. I see no *theological* problem with it, however. God in his omnipotence might choose to steer evolution with mutations whose apparent "chance" character concealed his subtle workings toward a desired end. The problem I see with it is that it is trying to address a biological problem which, from the look of things, is out of date. More and more it seems the formulation "random mutations plus natural selection" does not get even close to what happens in evolution; thus, Russell's solution to the problem is a solution to a problem which exists only in the neo-Darwinian framework. Scrap the neo-Darwinism, and we no longer need to focus on "how God can guide apparently random mutations" -- because random mutations aren't the main driver of evolution in the first place. Nonetheless, *if* evolution *did* work by "mutations plus natural selection", I would find nothing unorthdox about Russell's formulation, since he says that God *does* perform special divine actions, and that those actions *make a real difference* regarding how evolution turns out. It is *not* as if God just creates nature and nature then blindly produces man. God is behind the scenes, guaranteeing the outcome. This is compatible with the the omnipotence and providence of God as understood in orthodox Christianity (Anglican, Reformed, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc.), though obviously it is not compatible with those forms of Biblicism which reject evolution per se. But that is not a problem for you, Stephen, since you accept evolution, within a teleological framework. Russell, too, has a teleological framework. As theologian, he affirms that the evolutionary process is guided toward an end. You will never find a clear statement of that from Falk, Venema, etc. So my hat is off to Russell, for not being embarrassed to say that God actually does something that makes a difference. That puts him, in my view, a cut above most of the well-known TEs, who have cultivated the art of evasiveness to a degree found only in diplomats and university presidents. So in sum, I think you are broad-brushing. I agree that the particular statement you quote, by itself, *looks* like the usual self-contradictory rubbish uttered by many of the famous TEs; but I think Russell has a "high view of providence" and that his words are best interpreted in light of his overall thought, rather than in isolation. That doesn't make Russell's view of evolution true, and I'm not endorsing his view. But I think that as ID people we should be trying to find common ground with those TEs who say things we can agree with. Russell's overall view contradicts a good deal of rubbish about divine action written by Miller, Collins, Falk, Applegate, Louis, etc., and seems to be motivated by a desire to make God lord over the evolutionary process. Neither Christians as such, nor ID proponents as such, should have any problem with that.Timaeus
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PDT
"some kind of “dialogue” is needed to resolve the tension." Well, it seems on this we agree. Or were you suggesting there is not only no conflict, but also no tension between science, philosophy and religion? Imo, for you to suggest there is no tension would represent an anti-realist position.Gregory
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
That should read, "Russell, like most scientists, needs a responsible philosopher to guide him."StephenB
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
11:20 AM
11
11
20
AM
PDT
Ted @140: I didn't base my opinion of Russell on one interview. I have read some of his other works. He often contradicts himself. In response to a question about Simpson's famous quote, ["evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind"] Russell responds by saying, "From a scientific perspective, true; from a theological perspective, false.". Only a confused mind could hold such a self-contradictory idea. However, I need not go beyond the interview in question to demonstrate these kinds of inconsistencies. Even in the follow up quote you cite, he confuses legitimate science with illegitimate science. Certainly, I would agree that there is a conflict between Christianity and the unwarraned, unscientific claim, that humans are robots, just as I would agree that there is a conflict between Christianity and the unwarranted, unscientific claim that humans have no free will. There is, however, no conflict between Christianity and reasonable attempts to formulate provisional scientific conclusions, nor could there ever be in a rational universe. For Russell, and most TEs, the universe is not a rational place. From their perspective, Christianity and science are not in perfect accord. As a result, some kind of "dialogue" is needed to resolve the tension. In truth, there is only one, unified, truth with many aspects. The various disciiplines, properly understood and practiced, find those aspects of the one truth. It is not the case that each discipline finds its own individual truth--except in the minds of TEs. In the same interview, notice Russell's incoherent answer to a pefectly reasonable question: QUESTION: "Do you think that we are heading into a new age, where people will once again see that science and religion are not in conflict?" [*Russell cannot provide a reasonble answer because he disagrees with the questioner's premise, as is evident from his earlier comment to the effect that religion and science ARE often in conflict]. RUSSELL:" I think we're entering into a very interesting period, where the relations between science and religion will be more multiform. We’re in a pluralistic culture, where the sciences themselves are changing by cultures, and we're in a pluralistic culture where religions are in dialogue. And so the actual relations between religion and science have become much more complex." And again: "The role of women, for example, in science is a critical factor, that is altering its concepts and the way it's practiced. And the role of women in religion is also changing radically. Both of these will affect the nature of the relations between science and religion. So I actually see it as a much more plural form relationship in the future - including what I hope is mutual responsible interaction." These relational issues point only to a PERCEIVED conflict between religion and science based on cultural interests. There is no real conflict between the essential subject matter of religion and the essential subject matter of science. Russell, like most scientists, need a responsible philosopher to guide them. Obviously, he (and most TEs) are listening to irresponsible philosophers. Interestingly, and by contrast, Collins makes rhetorical claims to the effect that no conflict at all exists between science and religion, but, he continually argues the other way. Like Russell, he is conflicted and confused, but he doesn't understand his own confusion.StephenB
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PDT
Ted, It is not (yet) clear to me that you 'broaden the conversation' at BioLogos, but that you 'deepen' it is obvious, given that you are a historian of (biological) sciences and that prior to your participation BioLogos had no historians working for them. If you were a philosopher of sciences (none of which are yet present at BioLogos), that would in my view constitute 'broadening.' It may be that I am being unfair with your assessment of what your contribution means there, but you have clarified in the past you are a historian and not a philosopher of (natural) sciences. Vertical and horizontal typically have different meanings. Let me refer you again to #120 in this thread. You appear to have made a peculiar agreement with Stephen C. Meyer, who promotes 'historical sciences'. I still don't understand why this is, other than if your guiding desire is to push back against USAmerican YEC views. Are you suggesting that your home field of 'history' *is* in fact (i.e. should be called) a 'science'? A pause for breath seems needed after that. It's a simple and basic question that will help people understand your position in this conversation, should you choose to answer it. Is 'history' a 'science'? "I believe there *are* forms of TE that do not 'reject historical orthodoxy'." - Ted Can you please clarify up-front whether or not accepting a 'real, historical Adam and Eve' constitutes 'historical orthodoxy? From my view, it does. After several years of contact with your views, Ted, it is still not clear to me what your position is on this topic. Lamoureux says directly and unapologetically 'No Adam.' G. Murphy doubts their reality shown by his 'sin of origin' piece. BioLogos lost many subscribers because it appeared to be anti-real, anti-historical Adam and Eve, while suggesting it could be the 'new orthodoxy'. In recent months they seem to have back-tracked to a 'no opinion' position, whereas in the past your TE-apologetic words here at UD have seemed to be heterodox and not orthodox on this topic; you seem to disbelieve in real, historical Adam and Eve. What's the truth in your words, Ted? Highlighting Russell is fine and good. Obviously he privileges 'natural sciences' even in the title of the organisation he founded - Theology and NATURAL Sciences. Thus, a bias in his views of 'nature' regarding 'science' is noteworthy, just as you make strong statements against YEC at BioLogos. This might symbolise a parallel with Protestants claiming to speak authoritatively about 'orthodoxy' in natural sciences, when there are other claims to what counts as 'science/orthodoxy' that do not fit within their chosen approach.Gregory
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PDT
Ted @188 I look forward to your TE review. I'm certainly aware there are many varieties of it, being one of them. And it's certainly evident that your "broadening" agenda is succeeding, particularly with the in-depth look at Russell, which has prompted me to order the book (if only to see which parts of it leave me most out of my depth). One of the oddest things about the current sociological climate is that the advertised categories seriously overlap - if Russell self-identified as ID rather than TE it would change his public image, but be no less descriptive (he'd be called a Creationist by the Gnus anyway - as should any Christian who believes in creation). I maintain that the principle reason for the culture wars within the Christian community is the now-stated, now-ambiguous, but usually militant metaphysical underpinning of Darwinism. That pushing of the Enlightenment agenda (shades of my BioLogos Russell series comments) was, in my view, what polarised things so badly early last century, leading directly to the entrenchment of Creationism and all the complications since. It probably, given that, couldn't develop in any other way. We had much less of that in the UK (though the warfare has been imported in recent decades), which is why it's hard to comprehend the passions involved: over here we tended in my day to read a few books and make up our minds (and discuss it at Church over coffee).Jon Garvey
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
For Stephen @182, where he wrote: The context is obvious. As Russell says, “Science and religion are not always compatible. In fact, they may be in conflict. And I think that’s healthy. What we’re looking for is not compatibility. We’re looking for a mutually responsive partnership. In many partnerships there are disagreements. And you need to resolve the dispute somehow, and retain the partnership. That’s the key. And one way to do it is to know what’s worth arguing over, and what’s a squabble because you’re upset. So what’s a valid conflict and what isn’t?” One of his main themes is to emphasize the importance of dialogue between science and religion to compensate for this conflict-to communicate as a means of overcoming the problem. This is another example of a TE who doesn’t believe that faith and reason are perfectly compatible. *** My comments as follows. This apparently comes from an interview of Russell at http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/transcript/bobr-frame.html Here is what Russell then says, elaborating on this: "You know, valid conflicts might be if a scientist really believes, for philosophical or scientific reasons, that a person is just a robot, or just matter in motion. There is nothing at all aesthetic or mental or affective about a person. Whereas, a religious person is committed to the notion that we're a total person - that our thoughts and hopes count, as well as our somatic disposition, that we're a psychosomatic entity. There's a real conflict. But in a positive way, those are like two research programs that are competing. I think we should let the conflict continue, and see which one is more fruitful." I suspect, Stephen, that in this instance you fully agree with Russell: that there is a genuine conflict between the view that people are robots and the Christian view that we are total persons. And, perhaps you also agree with Russell's view that we should let this play out and find out which of these alternatives turns out to be more fruitful. If I am assuming too much about your views, Stephen, I'm sure you will correct me. But, I suspect you and Russell agree more than your comments @182 indicates.Ted Davis
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
09:01 AM
9
09
01
AM
PDT
Correction: that link to part 2 on Russell should be http://biologos.org/blog/the-god-who-acts-part-2Ted Davis
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
For Jon @184, where he said this: "Ted, it would be good to get that fact into the spotlight at BioLogos, where the general impression given is that it’s all done-and-dusted in favour of orthodox Neodarwinian evolution and various versions of theology united in rejecting historical orthodoxy." Jon, one of the reasons I agree to write some columns for BL is to help broaden the conversation a bit. They want that, too, or they wouldn't have asked me to do it. However, let me simply point out that I believe there *are* forms of TE that do not "reject historical orthodoxy," and I don't think that BL's position amounts to that, whether or not my own views are part of that analysis. I look forward to hearing your views on this when I reach the TE position in my current series on "Science and Bible." My 2-part column on the YEC view started this week: http://biologos.org/blog/science-and-the-bible-scientific-creationism-part-1. I should get to the TE view in 3-4 months, and a discussion of "orthodoxy" will be a central part of what I will be saying then. In the meantime, we're starting a mini-series bringing some of Bob Russell's views to a wider audience than the very narrow academic audience he usually writes for. Whether or not you and others here agree with him, I hope you'll agree that he represents a serious form of TE that engages the issues in a very responsible way. The first two parts are now out: http://biologos.org/blog/the-god-who-acts-part-1 and http://biologos.org/blog/the-god-who-acts-part-1. I'm glad you've read them already, Jon. I hope others do as well. His ideas constitute one (of many) orthodox form(s) of TE. IMO.Ted Davis
May 24, 2012
May
05
May
24
24
2012
08:50 AM
8
08
50
AM
PDT
Thanks for pointing that out. I think you are right. I'm not all that familiar with the details of this theory, but just threw it out as a current idea that is being investigated. I'm sure there are still details that need to be worked on and things left unexplained, but I'm sure it has more explanatory power that the Big Bang itself.tjguy
May 22, 2012
May
05
May
22
22
2012
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
tjguy, I think one element you are missing from the time dilation theory is the proven fact, consistent with general relativity, that gravity affects time. Stronger gravitational forces slow down time. This has been demonstrated and is well-described by general relativity. This means that if the universe is finite and has a center, then that center would also be the center of gravity. Therefore with the expansion occurring, time would be very slow for the center and very fast for the outside due to general relativity and gravity concentrating at the center of mass of the universe.tragic mishap
May 22, 2012
May
05
May
22
22
2012
05:49 AM
5
05
49
AM
PDT
StephenB, No problem about taking your time. We are all busy. YECs don't have everything solved yet either. I guess the main thing I am interested in hearing is how you reconcile the biblical teaching of a global flood with an old earth. You say that if uniformitarianism is falsified, that you might consider a young earth. I could say the same thing. Show that uniformitarianism is true and I will consider an old earth. Uniformitarianism is an assumption that scientists make when they interpret the geologic record. But there are huge problems with it and it cannot be proven either true or false in the scientific sense of the word. But I believe there is sufficient evidence to show that it is a mistaken paradigm. The flood shows that you cannot just assume uniformitarianism and expect to come up with an accurate understanding of the past. The flood destroys the evidence for an old earth as far as geology goes. It destroys the evidence for evolution as the fossils would be rather recent. It shows that most dating methods are way off when it comes to discerning the age of the rocks. James Hutton, the guy who is called the Founder of Modern Geology wrote this in 1785 before he began examining the evidence. It shows the worldview he used to interpret his findings and it explains how uniformitarianism was born.
‘the past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now … No powers are to be employed that are not natural to the globe, no action to be admitted except those of which we know the principle’
This is an unbiblical assumption on which he arbitrarily based the whole framework of uniformitarianism. If he had been willing to consider the effects of a global flood, do you think he would have chosen this method of interpretation? I don’t think so. So I don’t really understand why you think that uniformitarianism has to be proven false. I’m more interested in whether or not you can prove that it is true. I would think that a simple cursory reading of God’s Word would show you that it is false. You have creation, which was not a uniformitarian process and then of course the global flood which would create havoc for geology. Problems with uniformitarianism: Polystrate fossils, Noah’s flood, thick coal beds like in the Powder River Valley Basin in Wyoming, water transported quartzite gravel, cobbles and boulders on the mountaintops, ridges plateaus and valleys of northwestern USA and southwest Canada that have been transported huge distances from their source, ultrahigh-pressure (UHP) minerals that are located in low pressure environments, the origin of chert and radiolarian chert, fast erosion rates, continental shelves(evidence for rapid sheet deposition along the edge of the continents as opposed to slow processes over millions of years), water and wind gaps, pediments, submarine canyons, etc. Massive erosion by the receding waters of the flood would leave behind huge planation surfaces, erosional remnants like Devils’ Rock, and boulders transported from great distances. The eroded sediments then formed the continental shelf as the water flowed off of the continents. Then valleys, canyons, wind and water gaps, pediments, and submarine canyons formed rapidly when the flow of the receding water became channelized. These features are worldwide supporting the idea of a global flood and refuting the idea of uniformitarianism. At any rate, it should be clear by now that belief in a global flood is not consistent with an old earth position. Old universe, perhaps, but not an old earth. So, again, I’m glad that you believe in a global flood like the Bible teaches, but then, I am interested in knowing how you can continue to believe that the earth is old. What evidence would you submit for that view? Most of that evidence will have been invalidated by the fact of a global flood.tjguy
May 21, 2012
May
05
May
21
21
2012
11:34 PM
11
11
34
PM
PDT
Ted Davis @ #179
There simply is no such thing as TE, per se; there are simply many discrete forms of it. That’s one reason that most generalizations are going to be fraught with difficulties.
Ted, it would be good to get that fact into the spotlight at BioLogos, where the general impression given is that it's all done-and-dusted in favour of orthodox Neodarwinian evolution and various versions of theology united in rejecting historical orthodoxy. That would be fine except that (a) it's pretty well the only "Big Name" TE organisation and (b) its stated mission is to sell the virtues of theistic evolution primarily to the Evangelical community. Yet, though I started my interest there as a TE and an Evangelical, and have written fir them, I often feel more on the margins that I do when I post here, amongst YECs, Catholics, Jews and Agnostics. Strange, huh?Jon Garvey
May 17, 2012
May
05
May
17
17
2012
02:59 AM
2
02
59
AM
PDT
tjguy, I apologize for the delay. I promised you an abbreviated account of Biblical Hermeneutic that justifies reconciling the Bible with "Big Bang" theory. I hope to do that soon. Meanwhile, I thank you for presenting your argument on behalf of the distant star/starlight syndrome. I will read it with care. Still, my duties are catching up with me, so it is getting more difficult to respond in a timely way.StephenB
May 16, 2012
May
05
May
16
16
2012
04:59 PM
4
04
59
PM
PDT
Ted, three quick final (I hope) thoughts: [a] You say, "Polkinghorne’s open theism is not a consequence of his TE position." You can certainly make a case for that proposition, though I think other motives are in play. Anyway, I did not argue that he compromises his faith because he is a TE, rather my argument, which still holds, is that, as a TE, he has compromised his faith, just as every TE I have ever read compromises his (her) faith. Usually, it is simply of case of subordinating classical Christianity to the provisional findings of science--never a good idea. Further, I have hinted at the reason: If they felt that reason and faith were in perfect accord, they would feel no need to redefine the Christian faith in order to afford the reconciliation. [b] On the subject of Robert Russell, you write: "I’d like to answer this one, Stephen, but I need more context. If you can provide a lengthier passage and the source, I would be grateful. I might say the same thing myself, if “Theology” and “science” are each defined in certain ways." The context is obvious. As Russell says, "Science and religion are not always compatible. In fact, they may be in conflict. And I think that's healthy. What we're looking for is not compatibility. We're looking for a mutually responsive partnership. In many partnerships there are disagreements. And you need to resolve the dispute somehow, and retain the partnership. That's the key. And one way to do it is to know what's worth arguing over, and what's a squabble because you're upset. So what's a valid conflict and what isn't?" One of his main themes is to emphasize the importance of dialogue between science and religion to compensate for this conflict-to communicate as a means of overcoming the problem. This is another example of a TE who doesn't believe that faith and reason are perfectly compatible. [c] On the other hand, no TE has ever answered or even approached my challenge. Their problem of incoherence is, as far as I know, universal. As I pointed out, they cannot, in a rational way, articulate their conception of teleology vs. non-teleology with respect to evolution. Appealing to quantum indeterminancy does not, in any way, solve this problem. For them, the process is both teleological and non-teleological. If you ask them to affirm one explanation (end-directed) and negate the other (not end-directed), their response is reminiscent of the proverbial "deer in the headlights." That is because they have never considered the implications of their position or subjected their ideas to rational scrutiny. Either the process is end-directed or it is not. To not understand this is to miss everything.StephenB
May 16, 2012
May
05
May
16
16
2012
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
Two final comments for Stephen @171, not to engage in combat but to seek further understanding. (1) SB: "If Polkinghorne’s Christian faith is perfectly compatible with his science, then why does he deny God’s omniscience." Polkinghorne's open theism is not a consequence of his TE position. Rather, he believes that for other reasons, including theodicy, and then brings it to his interpretation of evolution. A relevant passage from "Belief in God in An Age of Science": "It is clear that the God of temporal process is the more vulnerable in relation to creation than is the atemporal God of classical theism. The converse of that is that it seems that the atemporal God presents greater difficulties for theodicy than does the God of temporality. The discords in the score are simply there in the former case, rather than arising from the uncertain clashes of contingent process." (p. 74) I don't want to start a separate argument about open theism; I'm not here to defend Polkinghorne, simply to explain that (for him) open theism is a theological commitment that does not arise from accepting evolution, and there is no necessary connection. Indeed, relating this to Timaeus @174, this is one of the points on which Polkinghorne and Russell have strongly differed, especially in those private parties that I spoke about. Russell is not an open theist. At this point in time, however, they would both probably say that the best approach to theodicy is to emphasize eschatology--a theology of hope, based on the reality of the bodily Resurrection of the crucified One. Nothing could be more orthodox than that, IMO. This, too, influences the specific forms of TE for which they argue, but (again) the theology drives the interpretation rather than the other way around. As a relevant aside, my colleague Robin Collins is completing a terrific book about the design of the laws of nature. I don't know whether Robin is considered a full-blown open theist, but he's closer to that position than to the traditional view. Judging from questions I'm sometimes asked, there is a perception that open theism and TE are inextricably linked. Not so. Russell and Robin Collins are very significant counter-examples. Collins is often seen as pro-ID (and in some ways he is), Russell is always seen as a TE. People think in their *own* categories, and we need to be careful not to impose ours on them. (2) SB: "If Russell’s Christian faith is perfectly compatible with his science, why does he say that Theology and science 'are often in conflict?'” I'd like to answer this one, Stephen, but I need more context. If you can provide a lengthier passage and the source, I would be grateful. I might say the same thing myself, if "Theology" and "science" are each defined in certain ways.Ted Davis
May 16, 2012
May
05
May
16
16
2012
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
Stephen: @178 I'm very glad that you will consider my invitation to dialogue about my own ideas. If time won't allow that to happen properly, I'm in no position to complain. I am also about to turn to other things and sign off this thread. If you want to talk about the interview, in this thread or somewhere else, please alert me to it off-line (I think you have my address but I gave it anyway @179) so that I will be sure to take part. Your @178 must have come in as I was typing @179, since I didn't see it before I sent it in. My final paragraph in @179 pertains to something you said @171: "I would approach them [hypothetical persons who are not well informed about ID] the same way I approach you on the subject of Theistic Evolution. I would reduce the subject matter to its simplest essence and ask them three or four questions to test their competence. I have already done that with you, by the way, and you didn’t pass the test." If you compare your approach as you've explained it, Stephen, to my view of the complexity of the situation as I expressed it in the last paragraph @179, then perhaps everyone will understand more fully why we differ so greatly. Awhile back crossed swords on something similar, but unrelated to evolution, when we differed in our analyses of Rodney Stark's chapter on science in http://www.amazon.com/For-Glory-God-Reformations-Witch-Hunts/dp/0691114366. I'm not interested in reprising all of that; I want simply to connect those dots to give readers a better sense of my approach, and--hopefully--in a way that is not unfair to your position. In short, I'm suspicious of "simplest essence" in both instances, whereas you thrive on identifying them. Is this fair? Peace.Ted Davis
May 16, 2012
May
05
May
16
16
2012
11:27 AM
11
11
27
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 8

Leave a Reply