Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
Timaeus @ #144 Front loading v "clunky" interference. Of course, Robert H Russell's quantum tweaking is more like an ongoing creative input than an interference. But it is still interesting to consider the strengths/weaknesses of either "initial" or "ongoing" direction of creation. God, it seems likely to me (as to Augustine and Einstein, though not to the Open Theists and Process Theologians), dwells and creates in eternity, so that the world's history is spread before him, so to speak, as a time line, all at once. From the Bible's point of view, God's purposes predominate over processs (in other words he wills goals and how to meet them rather than methods and where they may end up). He is free to act at any and every point in the timeline "simultaneously", from his eternal point of view. One could also compare that to an artist with a finished scene in his mind, who can put marks wherever he likes on the paper to build up the image - or even stamp it all at once with a woodblock if he prefers. With that in mind, it's worth asking what advantages, if any, there would be to putting all his creative input into one point of the timeline, the "left" end (or beginning to us) rather than over the whole history of time.Jon Garvey
May 14, 2012
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JGuy, the difference between me and most who hold an old universe view is that I hold the uniformitarian assumption provisionally. I am perfectly willing to accept that I might be wrong and that YECs might be right. I said as much in the OP.
But would you agree that those that hold a uniformitarian presupposition must explain certain evidences that are illusions of youth? Such as the two evidences I gave as examples in the prior comment. Ifso, then uniformitarianism is like TE explaining the illusion of design. Everyone must explain illusions of historical science. Except for, interestingly, the fact that the illusion of age exists/manifests in a YEC framework when employing a uniformitarian framework. It is not an internal contradiction. However, the illusion of youth in the uniformitarian view can not attribute the contradiction to the interpretation from another framework. This seems to create a be a kind of internal contradiction, b/c the uniformitarian's case of the illusion of youth is employing it's own uniformitarian methodology. Seems to me the uniformitarian framework has to deal with a bigger issue with explaining than YEC. Perhaps, we can call this the illusion of any illusions about the YEC frameworks.JGuy
May 14, 2012
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-tjguy: "Genesis speaks of ex-nihilo creation but why do you say it argues for a transcendent God but not an immanent God. The Bible as a whole presents God as both transcendent and immanent. God "looked at his creation and saw that it was good." The author's purpose for writing that statement is to refute pantheism and emphasize God's transcendence. God's immanence is described elsewhere. --"Here, I see many indications that God is an immanent God. The text speaks clearly of His regular involvement in His creation – creating new things each day. This speaks to me of an immanent Creator." God's immanence refers to his presence "inside" His creatures or creation. --"Besides, it is God who saves us, not ourselves, which you probably agree with." I agree that God saves us, but I also think we, too, have something to say about our salvation, which is why I am more concerned with heresy than the age of the universe. ---"God communicated with and had fellowship with Adam and Eve while they lived in the garden and He even created for them a special place to live. (This again speaks of immanence to me.) God's transcendence is reflected insofar as He is communicating with Adam and Eve from the outside. His immanence is reflected in Adam and Eve's powers of reason and volition, which reflects the power of God operating inside a human being. Remember, immanence refers to God as He exists "inside" his creation. ---"I take the “very good” idea to mean that there was no death, no carnivory, no suffering, and no disease in God’s original “very good” creation, because these things would never be said to be “very good” by God." The term "very good" is also meant to assure us that ALL of God's creation is good, both spirit (soul) and matter (body). It anticipates the error of Manicheism and Gnosticism, the heresies which declared that spirit is good and matter is bad. --"In one sense you might be right. God could have created however He wanted to. How long He took is not the MOST important point of the passage, but that doesn’t mean that God was not telling us something about this when He inspired Moses as he wrote this account. Personally, I think time is more important to God here than you think. I think He took 6 literal 24 hour days to create the universe for a very specific and important reason." You may be right. I am not dead set against YEC or a 6 day creation. I just happen to think that the author had bigger fish to fry for reasons I mentioned above (anticipating the heresies of pantheism, manicheism, Gnosticism, and a number of other potential errors I have not mentioned. - What do you think the author was trying to say, and in what order of importance do you place the points? Also, Jesus once said, "My Father causes the sun to rise." Given that quote, why do you take the word of scientists who say that the earth revolves around the sun?" --"Your whole argument here is based on this arbitrary assertion that the author only had one simple intention." No, I didn't say that. I said that he was more concerned about some things than others, and I was very careful to point out which things I think are more important. ---"You don’t think that God is capable of communicating more than one point through a passage of Scripture I’m sure." You are putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that. God can write on several levels and usually does. ---"Actually, I believe God, who inspired the account, and Moses who was inspired to write this account, did intend to say something about time because of the way it is written and because of the verse I just mentioned where He explains why He took 6 days." I think you may well be right. ---"I’m sure you must have some evidence to back it up or you wouldn’t take such an unorthodox position. I’m just curious as to what that is." Well, if it is a salvation issue or a heresy issue, I pay no attention whatsoever to claims made or outside of Scripture. But if it is on matters less important, I allow input from science [albeit fair science, not partisan science] to shape my opinion. Since I think the evidence is good for a 13 billion year old universe, and since Biblical authors sometimes write in different genres, I weigh all those elements and conclude (for now) that the author of Genesis was not referring to 24 hour days. If I knew that Genesis was, strictly speaking, a historical document IN EVERY WAY, or if uniformatarianism was shown to be false, I would likely abandon my position and become a YEC. My attitude on this matter is provisional. Most of all, though, I need a very good answer to the question of why it takes light billions of years to reach us from distant galaxies. Do you have a good argument to show that this perception is false? If not, spare me all your other arguments. - ---"Plus, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you are discounting most of what God has told us here in this passage with one sleight of the hand. It seems like you are saying that since the author only had one intention, we can ignore everything else he said here as not being grounded in reality. It was all written simply to get across his one point." I believe that I stated several times that more than one point is being made and I think I explained why some things are more important than others. It is more important to avoid a heresy because that will affect our salvation. I don't think our salvation depends on our conceptions about the age of the universe. --"Perhaps in a later post I can share the reasons I think this passage demands to be taken literally and what principles of hermeneutics YECs use when approaching Scripture. It is not the wooden literalism that seem to insinuate that we use – ie we view the whole Bible as nothing more than historical narrative." I would be more interested in your arguments explaining how the light beam from a star reputed to be a billion light years away is, in fact, only a few thousand years old. Oh yes, and tell me why you do not accept Jesus' statements that "the Father causes the sun to rise" and why you choose to accept the alternate explanation by scientists to the effect that the earth revolves around the sun.StephenB
May 13, 2012
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There was a copying error in Genesis 1. When Adam originally wrote it down it had the word "billion" next to the numbers. Moses took that out when he transcribed it because he thought that bit was not from YHWH.Mytheos
May 13, 2012
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For StephenB:
So we are back to what I think the author had in mind. Genesis is arguing for an ex-nilio (out of nothing) origin of the universe and a transcendent (as opposed to immanent) God. In keeping with that point,
I find your views here very interesting. I agree that Genesis speaks of ex-nihilo creation but why do you say it argues for a transcendent God but not an immanent God. The Bible as a whole presents God as both transcendent and immanent. Here, I see many indications that God is an immanent God. The text speaks clearly of His regular involvement in His creation – creating new things each day. This speaks to me of an immanent Creator. “In keeping with that point,…” Well, just making a statement without backing it up, doesn’t really make for a good foundation on which to base your whole argument, but anyway, going on…
it describes the relationship between God and man (creator, creature), teaching that the universe was made for man and the glory of God, providing the proper theological orientation by which man may save his soul.
Hmm. You kind of lost me there. I don’t see anything in Genesis about how man can save his soul. Besides, it is God who saves us, not ourselves, which you probably agree with. It does tell us that originally man was created without sin and did have a relationship with God. It tells us how through sin this relationship was ruined and lost. And it tells us how one day, God would send someone to destroy the devil - the seeds of the gospel. Perhaps that verse, Gen. 3:15 is what you are referring to? This passage does describe the relationship of the Creator to His creation. The Creator gives commands and the creation obeys. We see that in all 3 chapters of the creation account. But we also see a God who had a close relationship with man. He created man directly from the dust of the earth and made him in His own image. He was very involved in His creation. God communicated with and had fellowship with Adam and Eve while they lived in the garden and He even created for them a special place to live. (This again speaks of immanence to me.) I agree that the universe was made for God’s glory, but again, I don’t really see that truth spelled out for us very clearly here in Genesis. Where do you see it? Perhaps it can be inferred from Gen.1:31 where God looked back on what He had made and said it was “very good”? I take the “very good” idea to mean that there was no death, no carnivory, no suffering, and no disease in God’s original "very good" creation, because these things would never be said to be “very good” by God. Plus we’re told that the animals were given plants to eat when they were originally created. Perhaps the perfection of the original creation can be said to speak of God's glory, but that teaching really comes out more clearly in other parts of the Bible.
How much time was involved in the process is a far less important point
You claim that time was not important. In one sense you might be right. God could have created however He wanted to. How long He took is not the MOST important point of the passage, but that doesn’t mean that God was not telling us something about this when He inspired Moses as he wrote this account. Personally, I think time is more important to God here than you think. I think He took 6 literal 24 hour days to create the universe for a very specific and important reason. He Himself tells us what that was in Ex 20:11. In fact, He wrote this with His own finger on the stone tablet for Moses. He deliberately did it in 6 days to give us the pattern for our week. He compares the 6 days of creation and one day of rest with the 6 days of our week and day of rest. It is not good hermeneutics to interpret the word “day” in two different ways in the very same verse. He doesn’t use the language of metaphor or allegory here. He doesn't use any other words that would imply long periods of time nor does he use the word "day" in a way that would lead to that kind of understanding. He simply tells us that He took 6 days to create the heavens and the earth.
and you can’t expect the author, who had one intention, namely an argument supplemented by an incomplete historical account[this is your opinion], to provide a time-table description that would be reminiscent of another kind of intention.
Your whole argument here is based on this arbitrary assertion that the author only had one simple intention. You don't think that God is capable of communicating more than one point through a passage of Scripture I'm sure. Actually, I believe God, who inspired the account, and Moses who was inspired to write this account, did intend to say something about time because of the way it is written and because of the verse I just mentioned where He explains why He took 6 days. So, at this point, lacking any reasons/evidence that this is indeed the correct way to read Genesis 1, I remain unconvinced. I await your explanation of the evidence upon which you base your interpretation here. * What is there in the text that makes you think this was the author’s intention? + or that it was his only intention? + Are there some grammatical reasons or exegetical reasons that you find in this passage on which to base this claim? + Are there other passages of Scripture that enlighten us on Moses' intentions here? I’m sure you must have some evidence to back it up or you wouldn’t take such an unorthodox position. I’m just curious as to what that is. Can you also please explain to me what hermeneutical principles you use when approaching a particular passage? One such principle (that I also employ) would be to try and discern the original author's intent which is what you claim to be doing here, but I just have no idea how you came up with your answer. Offhand it seems to me to be an ad hoc explanation to make long ages fit in the Bible, but I'll wait to see what evidence you have to back up your claim before jumping to a conclusion. Plus, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you are discounting most of what God has told us here in this passage with one sleight of the hand. It seems like you are saying that since the author only had one intention, we can ignore everything else he said here as not being grounded in reality. It was all written simply to get across his one point. If so, that is certainly not clear from the text in my mind. I find it hard to believe that the whole Bible is built on a foundation made up of this kind of a wobbly unclear assumption that I cannot find in the text itself. Perhaps in a later post I can share the reasons I think this passage demands to be taken literally and what principles of hermeneutics YECs use when approaching Scripture. It is not the wooden literalism that seem to insinuate that we use - ie we view the whole Bible as nothing more than historical narrative.tjguy
May 13, 2012
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tragic (140): We're finally on the same page, it seems. I have not studied the most recent statements of Dembski and Marks, but I do know from other reading that Dembski, Meyer, Wells, and one or two others have objected to Denton's scenario. They do not think that any "cosmic program," no matter how sophisticated, could account for the specific things that life needs and/or that later evolution would have to be able to do. They think that there would have to be fresh inputs of new information, not just at the beginning of time, but on one or more occasions afterward. What this amounts to is "interventionism" or "moving particles around." Meyer seems to argue that there are elements in the DNA-protein coding system that are simply arbitrary -- more than one such system would be chemically possible. Therefore, a "programmed Big Bang," when it got to the division between non-life and life, would be powerless to produce life, because a programmed, necessitarian natural process couldn't make the necessarily arbitrary choice of how the code would work. At that point, at least, the decision and action of an intelligent agent would have to be inserted. So even if evolution could carry on by itself after the first cell, there would still have to be that one intervention -- to establish the particulars of the code. So, at least one miracle, after the Big Bang. That seems to be the implied claim of his book. There is also reason to believe that Meyer thinks that information was input at least once more -- during the Cambrian Explosion. So that would make at least two miracles, on Meyer's account. I wouldn't be surprised if the others -- Nelson, Dembski, and Wells in particular -- believed that there would have to be many more than these two moments of "information injection." Michael Behe has been more open to Denton. He has not said that interventionist input of new information is necessary, and he has allowed Denton's scheme as a possibility. But he may well personally believe that special inputs of information did in fact occur. In reading these remarks, keep in mind that Denton lays much less stress on "information" than Meyer and Dembski do. Even Behe doesn't talk about "information" all that much. So what we are seeing is a difference in approaches among ID theorists themselves, with the biochemists less enamored of "information" than the others. That is is why I would continue to resist expressions like "what ID theorists mean." That's like saying: "What Christians mean," without taking into account that Catholics, Anglicans, Reformed, Seventh-Day Adventists, Pentecostals, etc., can be light-years apart on important matters of both theory and practice. Newton didn't accept the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, but I wouldn't say that he wasn't a Christian. So if Denton is the odd man out among ID theorists, I'm not going to say he isn't an ID theorist. He's just an ID theorist with a minority view. He therefore can't be disagreeing with "all of intelligent design theory"; he surely doesn't disagree with the part of intelligent design theory represented by himself! I'm not refereeing between these guys -- Denton and the others. I don't know enough biology and biochemistry, and I don't know enough mathematics and information theory, and I'm not setting myself up as judge. Can a programmed, necessitarian process such as Denton imagines produce new "CSI"? The others say no, Behe says maybe, Denton says yes (though without speaking much, if at all, about "CSI"). I say the jury is out. And as long as it's out, I'm going to maintain a broad definition of ID as "the belief that Darwinian theory is bankrupt, and that intelligent design was necessary to produce what we see, whether by direct creation or through some guided or planned evolutionary process," and under that definition I'll continue to count Denton (and anyone else who supports him) as an ID person. I guess what it amounts to is that we are both right: I think I am right to reject your generalization about "what ID believes" or "what ID people claim"; but for most of the leading ID proponents (this may be slightly less true of the rank-and-file ID supporters), ID requires "moving particles around" (whether those particles are atoms, molecules, or genes) to insert new information, and something like Denton's view is just not empirically or theoretically credible.Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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For StephenB:
—tjguy: “If you can show me that God’s Word teaches an old earth using sound methods of biblical interpretation, then I’m all ears. I would be happy to believe that, but until I can be convinced from God’s Word, I prefer to trust God who saw what happened as opposed to the naturalistic interpretations of history by modern day scientists who did not see what happened.”
You would have to be open to the fact that the Bible contains many genres, including poetry, allegory, argument, and. get this, incomplete history. I don’t think you are open to that fact. Yes, much of the Old Testament is historical, as are the Gospels in the New Testament, but some of it is not. You are assuming, I gather, that only one Biblical genre exists, namely the historical and you interpret everything in that context.
OK, sorry, but here I need to ask you why you would assume that I am not open to the idea of various genres in the Bible. That is an undeniable fact. There are prophetical, poetical, bibliographical, historical, and apocalyptic sections as well as others I’m sure. I confess that I don’t know what you mean by incomplete history. I mean, when can any historical record really be said to be complete? Does the fact that it is not complete invalidate what it does say? That is not my view of the Bible. That is the first time I have ever heard that mentioned as a genre of Scripture. To be honest, it sounds like someone’s efforts to qualify Genesis in such a way to read long ages into the text. But anyway, yes, I agree that we need to know what kind of literature we are interpreting.tjguy
May 13, 2012
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However, I have a question for you: Jesus says that the “Father causes the sun to rise…” Why do you not accept his teaching and choose to follow scientists who say that the earth revolves around the sun?
Good question because Jesus’ statement here could be consistent with either a heliocentric view or a geocentric view of the solar system. Either way we interpret the statement, the meaning of what Jesus says here does not change though.(This is different than the issue we have in Genesis as our interpretation greatly changes the meaning of the passage.) But anyway, how do we know which is right? Here we need some outside help because there is not much in the text itself to tell us which way to interpret it. We know from other passages of Scripture though that the solar system is not the result of cosmological evolution, but was created and designed by God. In this sense, He can legitimately said to be the cause behind the rising and setting of the sun. Scientists use the language of description – looking at things from the perspective of the earth(phenomenological language) language all the time. Weather reports often mention the time of sunrise and sunset even though we all know that technically the sun does not “rise” or “set” and they are not accused of scientific error so obviously, I'm sure we both agree that Jesus can not be said to be guilty of teaching error. Here science can be helpful to us – not evolutionary historical science, but operational science. Why? Because we can make direct observations that verify this. We can test both theories, and actually observe with our own eyes which is right. This is not possible when dealing with the interpretation problem of Genesis. No one can go back and observe the length of the days of Genesis. Although the text in Matthew is not very helpful in knowing how to take Jesus’ words, in Genesis we have whole chapters, large sections of Scripture with which to work. Genesis is the most quoted book in the whole Bible and it is instructive and important to see how other Scriptural writers viewed Genesis. They all recognized it as literal history.tjguy
May 13, 2012
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For StephenB,
–tjguy: “It seems like whenever I bring up the flood, the dialog stops.”
I don’t appreciate the insinuation, since don’t run away from any topic. If Scripture says the flood was world-wide, and if it closes the door on the possibility of a local flood, then I accept the teaching as is. If geologists are unwilling to consider that hypothesis, then that is their error.
OK, rebuke accepted. I jumped to a wrong conclusion. Sorry. It is just that the OEC position is not really consistent with a global flood so I naturally assumed you would re-interpret that position to fit your interpretation of Genesis 1. We both have a passion for God and His Word although our principles of interpretation are a bit different. But I am glad that you believe in a global flood. Geologists are unwilling to consider that as a possible hypothesis because it would create havoc for and nullify evolution. It would destroy geological evidence for an old earth and for evolution. It would mean that the rocks are mostly young as opposed to billions of years old. It would mean that most of the fossils too are young. Rather than being a record of billions of years of evolution, the fossils would be a record of the order of burial of trillions and trillions of living creatures during the flood. This kind a thing is too revolutionary so they are unable to even consider this idea now - but it was the prevalent view of geologists before Lyell. So, because of that, evolutionary geologists are quite determined to find a different way to explain the geological record. For YEC scientists, a global flood is not a hypothesis, rather our starting point, the lens through which we interpret the geological record because we view God’s Word as truth. Anyway, I’m glad that you do accept a global flood. I'm sure then that you can see how recognizing this historical event would be important if we have any hope of coming up with an accurate understanding of the history of our planet.tjguy
May 13, 2012
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Timaeus, for purposes of discussion I'll accept those definitions. Now that you've defined the system as "all of nature" it makes more sense to me. Even accepting your definitions, I would still maintain that this internal teleology is not what ID theorists mean when they claim to detect design. The entire point of Dembski and Marks' research on evolutionary algorithms was to show that the CSI in the programs' output was not generated by the program. It was there all along, right from the beginning, as an external input from an intelligent agent. Internal teleology is just necessity acting out in a non-contingent manner. The real design came at the beginning, and ID tries to detect it through its output. What ID theorists are looking for is not internal teleology but external teleology in the form of CSI directly inputted by agency. If Denton is saying that this internal teleology is creating information, he would be disagreeing not only with me but with all of intelligent design theory. If not, then there is no disagreement, and this is truly the longest argument over nothing I've ever had.tragic mishap
May 13, 2012
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--Gregory to Timeaus: "The statement of StephenB’s that “God directs” involves theology, not just teleology, would you not agree?" Are you cuckoo! Of course it involves "theology," if it involves God; just as it involves philosophy if it involves a rational argument, just as it involves language if it involves semantic meaning. That doesn't mean that I deny these things are present just because I don't mention each one by name. What nonsense. In any case, you didn't use the word "theology." as you now pretend, you used phrase "theological process," which remains a mindlessly meaningless term until you define it and explain how it is different in kind from a teleological process. Would you care to provide your definition? I didn't think so. Rational thought actually requires a certain amount of intellectual exertion. --"As it is, you take an unnecessarily myopic view of ‘teleology,’ like many in the western philosophical (or ‘history of ideas’) tradition. It is assumed that you’ll openly acknowledge that ‘western’ is the tradition you are raised and trained and currently reside in. Do you ‘beg to differ’?" By unnecessarily myopic you mean--like--consistent with the definition? Meanwhile, you remain clueless about the substance of what is being discussed and chime in only to obsess over the alleged misuse of words that you haven't even bothered to define. Remarkable!StephenB
May 13, 2012
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tragic (136): I realize that you weren't deliberately concealing your YEC identity. I just wish you had announced it to me earlier in our conversation, when some of the difficulties in communication cropped up. Of course, you might not have perceived that my lack of awareness of your YEC beliefs was part of my comprehension problem. So maybe there was nothing you could have done. Sorry if I sounded as if I was blaming you. But for future reference, don't assume that everyone who posts on UD reads every single posting under a column, or follows every individual poster. I've read your things from time to time, but I haven't followed you systematically and I simply didn't know you were YEC. You keep raising Aristotle, and now you refer to him as if I was defending him, and you savagely attack him. I wasn't defending him at all in this context. I was asking why you keep equating "internal teleology" with "Aristotelian teleology." That's like equating "dog" with "beagle." Aristotle gave the world one classic way of talking about internal teleology. That doesn't mean he has a monopoly on the concept. By "internal teleology" I never meant what Aristotle meant, and I made that clear from the very start of the discussion, when I sensed you were possibly interpreting me that way. You and I now appear to agree on how Denton's system works. It appears that we are differing merely over the application of the word "internal." I'm saying that, because the "wind-up toy," once it is wound up, can carry on without any further action by the person who designed it, the person who manufactured it, or the person who wound it up and released it, it must be operating entirely out of powers that are internal to it. The "wind-up toy" in Denton's case is "all of nature" including not only all the matter but all the laws and constants. It operates without any special action of God. Another way of putting it is: nature for Denton is a self-contained system. It was created by God, and got all its powers and abilities from God, but, once created, it is a self-contained system. At least, that is Denton's conception, which I'm not saying is the only possible conception of nature, or even the most Christian conception of nature. My only original point was that such a conception was compatible with ID. So nature contains the power to unfold itself into all its future forms, without even a hint of a wisp of further action on God's part. No one is sticking a finger in from *outside* the system (which means from outside of nature itself) to generate life, or the Cambrian Explosion, or man. Nature produces man all by itself, and it does it by "unfolding" or "unpacking" the plan programmed into it at or before time t = 0. The teleology unfolds *within* the world of nature, *inside* the world of nature, etc. Thus, I think that my use of the notion of "internal teleology" is not only justified, but a perfectly natural use of the English language. Regarding the computer, I had not spoken of a computer with many programs on it, as you are now speaking, because for Denton, the universe has, ultimately, only one program in it -- the one that produces man. So the best analogy is not a computer with many programs, but a computer processing the results of one task -- such as the calculation of pi to 500 digits. Once the program starts running, everything that happens is totally internal -- within the physical computer and within the commands as established by the programmer. Nothing outside has any effect on it. Even the programmer cannot change the outcome. So the "program to generate pi to 500 digits" is analogous to "nature" in Denton's scheme -- a self-running operation which unfolds only in reference to itself. Again, "internal" seems to me the natural word. But I won't fight over a word. If you refuse to label a completely self-contained system, which has all the information it needs to do its work entirely inside of it, and unfolds its own implicit contents without the intrusion of more information or motions from outside of it, as one possessing "internal teleology" -- fine. I'm not concerned about the label, I'm concerned about the meaning of the thing. And the meaning of the thing, as far as ID is concerned, is that there are "no miracles necessary" beyond the initial creation of matter, laws, constants, etc. So ID doesn't require intervention, and it doesn't require special acts by the designer of "moving particles around." If we agree on that, we agree on the substance, and the label doesn't matter. Your YEC position -- assuming that it is a standard YEC position -- would be quite different. God would have to "intervene" with new creative acts at several points, in order to create matter, life, species, and man. Once all these things are created, to be sure, God can then let everything run by natural laws (that is, until Biblical times when he starts breaking them for revelatory purposes), but he must intervene, i.e., perform special divine actions, in order to bring out certain major new categories of things. They don't grow out of the earlier things; they aren't implicit in them. Thus, the teleology of creation is what I'm calling "external," with the finger of something outside of nature -- God -- sticking itself into nature (or at least, into the part of nature that has been created thus far). God literally makes the individual components of the natural world -- their broad general types, anyway -- whereas in Denton the natural world articulates itself, using its own powers. Again, I care not how we label YEC, though to me "external" teleology is every bit as natural a term for YEC as "internal" teleology is for Denton's self-evolving nature. The important thing for me is that, while YEC can be seen as one possible ID position, not all ID positions involve the kind of external manipulation of nature that YEC (and OEC) do. And again, whatever you *meant*, many readers would take "moving the particles" to mean "external manipulation of nature by the intelligent designer" "special divine action" "intervention" "miracles" etc. That's why I protested against your choice of words. As to your last question, the distinction is meaningful because in all the Western forms of theism (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) the distinction between God and nature is meaningful. If nature, without God's special action, has certain powers of its own, those are "internal powers" of nature; if God intervenes with miracles, that is an "external action" which "intervenes" or "breaks the laws of" nature. And if nature has a built-in direction -- which I'm not claiming, but which Denton argued in his book -- then "internal teleology" is perfectly meaningful, because it contrasts with a view in which nature has no built-in direction, and takes its direction only from the special interventions of God which push it one way or the other, in accord with God's plans. Thus, if God brought a meteor down to kill the dinosaurs by an arbitrary special action -- literally diverting the meteor from its normal course -- that is an example of external teleology. But if the universe is programmed so that the earth had to be where it was, and the meteor had to fall where it did, and the dinosaurs had to be destroyed, due to the conditions at t=0, so that mammals could take their rise, preparing the way for man, then the universe as a whole can be said to have an "internal teleology". The distinction is extremely clear, and undeniably meaningful. I'm not trying to force you to use my terms, but I have very good reasons for using them, and I've now given you copious examples, analogies, etc. to show you exactly how they are useful. What you do with the terminology is up to you. By the way, I'm a Platonist, not an Aristotelian, so I would have been fairly well disposed toward Galileo, and also to Kepler and Newton. But not to Darwin.Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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Oh and congratulations for figuring out I'm of the modern persuasion. I never would have guessed it myself. Thanks to you I have found my true identity. For crying out loud.tragic mishap
May 13, 2012
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Holy cow, Timaeus, chill out. If you don't want to discuss metaphysics with someone who isn't as well versed in the classics as you are then you can stop talking to me right now. I know exactly what I think, it makes perfect sense to me, and Aristotle can go immolate himself for all I care. He was wrong about motion, wrong about circular orbits, wrong about the solar system, wrong about space, and wrong about almost every topic he touched that we would today call scientific. It was people like you, Timaeus, who talked down to scientists like Galileo because heliocentrism went against Aristotle, Ptolemy and the sacred "classics." So if the "classics" are your holy canon, then have a nice day and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Two things: 1) I assumed it was clear, both from my long activity on this blog and my first posts on this thread, in which I was defending YEC, that I was YEC. I am not sure how you missed that I was defending the YEC position if you read the whole thread. Don't accuse me of being disingenuous just because you read Greek better than English. 2) ID does not require a particular version of natural history. We are agreed here and I have been assuming that from the beginning. It's well understood here and normally goes without saying. I was not arguing from a position that I don't believe. I was arguing an ID position that I believe, which also happens to include YEC, which I also believe. But my reasoning on teleology was entirely based on the ID position. I was not trying to smuggle in YEC. Why would I? It's already included within ID. Moving on... I'm sorry I confused you. From what you've said I would pretty much agree with Denton on how God inputs CSI into the natural world, though we would not agree on natural history. I imagine most YECs view nature as a program that runs on its own without God inputting any CSI except at the beginning. My only quibble, my one disagreement with you, was the distinction you made between internal and external teleology. I'm sorry you took it as a massive affront to all of Christian and indeed, Western history of which you fancy yourself some kind of elite guardian. All I was trying to show was that ID might just require external teleology, especially on Denton's view of the universe as a wind-up toy (which is mine as well). Dembski has posited three possible efficient causes: chance, necessity and agency. Of those three, only chance could be considered "internal" to the fundamental units of matter, and chance just happens to be non-teleological. And since we have a very good, modern understanding of efficient cause beyond those fundamental units, we know that macro-phenomenon can be broken down into chains of efficient causes, fundamental units acting upon one another according to necessity. This, in my opinion, doesn't count as internal. Your definition of "internal" is arbitrary. It depends entirely upon what you define as a single unit. It could be a computer program, in which case any other programs within the same computer acting on the original program would count as external. But if you defined the entire computer as your unit, those programs would suddenly all count as internal when before they were external. So how in the Prime Mover's name can this distinction be meaningful?tragic mishap
May 13, 2012
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JGuy, the difference between me and most who hold an old universe view is that I hold the uniformitarian assumption provisionally. I am perfectly willing to accept that I might be wrong and that YECs might be right. I said as much in the OP.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2012
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Gregory, you wrote: "The statement of StephenB’s that “God directs” involves theology, not just teleology, would you not agree?" Yes, I would agree! But look at your original words: "That’s a ‘theological’ process, not a ‘teleological’ process. Let’s not handcuff a Theos with a telos!" You've moved from "not a teleological process" to "involves theology, not just teleology." You've moved from saying that StephenB misused the term "teleology" to saying that StephenB correctly used "teleology" but should have also mentioned "theology." And that is good. By conceding that StephenB was right to speak of "teleology," you have made the correction that I requested. So it all ends happily, and we are in agreement. There is, however, one other little thing to clear up, i.e., why you think that a *telos* would "handcuff" God. I was hoping you would give me some theological sources for that claim, a claim I've not heard before. But perhaps, in concentrating on the composition of your generous comments about me, you forgot that I had asked you that question. No matter. I've asked it again now. And there is no hurry. Whenever you get the time to look them up, I'll be glad to hear from you. It's always worth waiting if there is hope for new theological knowledge at the end of the wait.Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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I am astounded at the intemperate tone of some of the responses from our YEC friends. Did you not read this sentence? “Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.”
I like your acknowledgement that we all have the same evidence and use different interpretive frameworks. But I do sense a bit of ambiguity or subtle equivocation in your position. Notwithstanding that some YEC might agree things look old. B/c I think they only say they look old when they temporarily assume a uniformitarian framework. So, in the article you state that illusions of age are being explained. But there are of course "illusions of youth" that you & others that hold the uniformitarian interpretive framework must explain. ... One fine example is the ICR's testing on helium contained in radiometrically ancient zircons which supports the notion of accelerated nuclear decay, and those zircons being actually thousands of years old. Another is the discovery of soft stretchy dinosaur tissue supposedly 70million years old which is contrary to lab studies AND opposing actual laws of science. What laws does the notion of light speed decay oppose? Both of these require expalnations by old earth advocates that have to compete with known laws of science, whereas explanatiosn invovling time dialation or speed of light decay do not have to contend with known laws. Point being... explanations about these illusions from the uniformitarian fraemwork are required. I liked the article in many respects. Of course, I/we understand you/all have bias, but it seems you give a little less acknowledgement of your own uniformitarian bias. Because if uniformitarianism were just as much a presupposition as any interpretive frameworks - i.e. all being equal - then instead of the title: How TEs Are Like YECs or the Explanation of the Illusion is Itself an Illusion You could just as well title it: How TE Are Like Barry Arrington or the Explanation of the Illusion is Itself an Illusion or How Barry Arrington Are Like YEC or the Explanation of the Illusion is Itself an Illusion ...or none of these...since it seems they all oppose the idea you wanted to convey. I agree with Bevets in comment 23. Note how your bias is comes to the surface with the word used "illusion".
Barry, I think you gave a reasonably balanced presentation of YEC, however I would suggest two minor points. 1) “Illusion” of age reveals bias 2) You did not mention Russell Humphreys Gravitational Time Dilation. (I also suspect there are a few unknown unknowns)
For what it's worth. I use to be an Old Earth Creationist.JGuy
May 13, 2012
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Dear long lost Timaeus, Sometimes you quibble over the most ridiculous little things. It is not such privileged knowledge to know the etymology of ‘telos’ as you pretend. Many know this, laypersons included. Rhetorical pedantry aimed at a qualified teacher on the topic of ‘teleology’ is simply bad form. The statement of StephenB’s that "God directs" involves theology, not just teleology, would you not agree? As it is, you take an unnecessarily myopic view of 'teleology,' like many in the western philosophical (or 'history of ideas') tradition. It is assumed that you'll openly acknowledge that 'western' is the tradition you are raised and trained and currently reside in. Do you ‘beg to differ’? Have you ever published *anything* peer reviewed about intelligent design, evolution or creation as a scholar, Timaeus? I mean, as a real person, not just as 'hiding behind the Greek' character from ancient (pre-Christian) Plato on an ID-friendly blog site. Are you ‘visible’ or ‘invisible’ publically regarding your support of ID? Ted Davis responded to Jon Garvey recently at BioLogos negatively towards people who use pseudonyms, suggesting that this makes them willing to say things they never would if they were using their real names. As I understand it, you value Ted’s views about evolution and ID. And you say things here I doubt you ever would if you were ‘visible.’ That you are a ‘Greek scholar’ does not impress me, Timaeus; that you are a ‘pre-modernist’ (speaking of ‘science’) or perhaps even a person who pines for a neo-classical mentality while living in a post-modern age reveals some of the difference in our approaches. Your thoughts expressed here recently about Stephen Barr both credit and debit your relevance on the broader topic of science, philosophy and theology in dialogue. You’ve given away more than you realise. That you don’t think ID is ‘scientific’ or a ‘science’ says much; it says enough. GregoryGregory
May 13, 2012
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Timaeus @29, thank you for the clarification.StephenB
May 13, 2012
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Gregory: As I'm one of the resident Greek scholars here, you might perhaps be willing to accept a slight correction from me. "Telos" (from which is derived the term "teleology") means, in classical Greek, "end" "aim" "goal" etc. When StephenB said: “God directs it toward an end, which would seem to be the definition of a teleological process” his focus was on the word "end." If God directs something to an *end* (*telos*) then it is correct to speak of teleology. There was no error in what StephenB said. It would be interesting to hear your justification for saying that for God to have a *telos* would "handcuff" God. That was not the position of any classical Christian theologian known to me. Do you have texts, from theologians of unimpeachable orthodoxy (Luther, Calvin, Aquinas, Augustine, etc.) to support this notion?Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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StephenB (124): We're not disagreeing. For God to tinker with the Darwinian process (Mung calls it a process even though it's non-teleological, and thus violates his own definition of "process," but leave the vocabulary aside) would be a compromise, a mixing of teleology and anti-teleology. And you are right, this mixture has always been unacceptable to BioLogos TEs. Well, not formally unacceptable, because now Falk is saying that he doesn't want to dogmatize and that maybe God does act directly now and then. But that does not affect practice; in every strictly biological column that Falk and Venema and Applegate and Ussery and Alexander and others have ever written for the site, pure naturalism is taken for granted, and will continue to be taken for granted. It's in the Darwinian's blood to take it for granted. I was speaking hypothetically, about two ways that God might achieve his ends with perfect certainty. Hypothetically, *if* he created a "Darwinian universe," he could still achieve any particular end he desired, with 100% certainty -- *but only if he was willing to tinker*. He would have to, at some point, violate his own natural laws, in order to keep evolution from wandering off-course. That's Option A. It's clumsy and messy, but it gets the job done. Option B is classier, sleeker, shinier, more sophisticated, more subtle, more stylish. God sets up the initial parameters of the universe such that man (along with all other species that are essential to his plan) has to evolve. God now no longer has to intervene; he has guaranteed the results from the initial setup. Note that the BioLogos people -- certainly all the life scientists there, anyway -- absolutely despise Option A, because of their commitment to naturalism. Note also that they are cold to B, even though it meets their naturalistic requirements, apparently because it reminds them of Calvinist predestinarianism and thus makes their Arminian souls quiver in fear. (They are committing a logical error in making the link, since God could exercise absolute and deterministic power over sub-human nature while leaving the human will free, but logic has never been their strong point.) Now there may be more than these two options (God tinkers, or God preprograms) that are compatible with the Providence that BioLogos frequently talks so loudly about. But if there are other options, I don't know what they are. In the four years of its existence, BioLogos has never answered any direct question about what such options might be. So again, we are not disagreeing. My position is what it has always been: BioLogos is theologically confused, and philosophically illogical, and (except for Ted Davis and guest columnists like Mark Noll) historically uninformed about what the Christian tradition teaches. Maybe this will change; maybe Ted Davis and some other new blood in the organization will turn things around, and make BioLogos a place for serious discussion of science and theology issues, instead of a casual coffee break where liberal Wesleyan bench scientists speak amateurishly on theological issues. Let's hope. The original idea of BioLogos -- dialogue between scientists and theologians over evolution and science generally -- was a good one. Unfortunately, the wrong people -- people academically unqualified to lead a science-theology discussion, because they have negligible theoretical accomplishments in natural science (except for Collins) and a sophomore understanding of Christian theology (including Collins) -- have been in charge of the place since the beginning. This may be changing. I'm keeping an open mind.Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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--Gregory: That’s a ‘theological’ process, not a ‘teleological’ process. Let’s not handcuff a Theos with a telos! Conflation of these two terms, however, is not uncommon here at UD. Can there be ‘theological’ processes that are not ‘teleological’? TEs argue that God used a non-teleological, Darwinian process to produce Homo Sapiens--or haven't you heard? They are the ones doing the conflating. Try to do a little analysis and refrain from meaningless, uniformed gotchas.StephenB
May 13, 2012
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"God directs it toward an end, which would seem to be the definition of a teleological process" That's a 'theological' process, not a 'teleological' process. Let's not handcuff a Theos with a telos! Conflation of these two terms, however, is not uncommon here at UD. Can there be 'theological' processes that are not 'teleological'?Gregory
May 13, 2012
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tragic mishap (121): Our whole conversation has been conducted under a misunderstanding. I did not know that you were a YEC. I have been interpreting your statements as if you were a confirmed believer in macroevolution, the Big Bang, etc. But as a YEC you cannot possibly believe in macroevolution or the Big Bang (not the Big Bang as it is generally understood by modern astrophysicists, anyway). Thus I've been confused a number of times by argumentative moves you have made. It would have helped if right from the beginning you had said: "I don't believe in either macroevolution or the Big Bang, but just for the sake of argument ..." or something of the kind. Even supposing that your discussion was just for the sake of argument, it is still confusing. You say above, for example, that God goes and lies on the beach, but is still "sustaining" the natural laws. But "sustaining" is an activity, and that means that God is doing more than lying on the beach. I think that is one of the theological objections of the TEs to Denton (though they never articulate it, since most of them haven't read Denton, and won't, even when he is pointed out to them). They would say (as they have said of Paley) that his model is too "Deistical" -- endowing nature with its powers and then retiring. (Those aren't his words, but his thought could be taken in that way.) Your language is confusing because you have God in continuous activity sustaining nature but also retiring (lying on the beach). You offer a muddy halfway house between "Deism" and TE, as far as divine action is concerned. All language about God is of course at best analogical, so I'm not going to demand Euclidean precision, but at the very least your images give a conflicting impression. Your point about natural laws coming from "beyond" nature is not relevant. Of course they come from "beyond" nature if they originally come from God. But *now* -- in the present world -- they are part and parcel of nature. That may not be your view, but it's Denton's. (It's also the view of the overwhelming majority of Church Fathers, Scholastics, etc., that nature, once created, has powers of its own, granted to it by God, to be sure, but still properly its own. But as a YEC you may go by the Bible alone, and may not care a fig what the theological tradition has said.) You make the philosophical error of equating "nature" with "material existence." This shows that your categories of thought are those of modern philosophy, rather than ancient/medieval/Renaissance philosophy. This is not unusual for YECs. Despite their perception of themselves as anti-modern, they are actually quite modern in their thinking. They oppose the Enlightenment, but they oppose it, so to speak, on the same playing field. I come from a different playing field. I think that most of modern thought -- the playing field on which Ham clashes with Dawkins, etc. -- is a massive error. You say that laws cannot be considered internal because they are universal. That does not follow. The rules of the game of Monopoly are universal -- binding on *all* the players within the "universe" in which the game is played -- but they are also completely internal, within the game. They aren't found in the "Scrabble universe," for example. And the fact that the rules are entirely "mental" -- you have to pay so much for a house, so much for a hotel, must past Go to collect $200, etc., does not mean that they are not part of the game. The intangible rules are just as much a part of the game as the "physical" parts -- the little houses and hotels and playing tokens that move around the board. And both the intangible rules and the pieces are "created" by the makers of Monopoly, who lies outside the game, but once the game starts, they are internalized within the game and their origin is irrelevant. Denton's nature is like that. The computer "program" that produces man consists of both "physical" things -- matter -- and "mental" things -- constants, natural laws. All of these things are created by God, and, once created, run by themselves, just as, if you build a computer, and then program it to calculate the value of pi to 500 decimal places, both the physical side of things (the working of the parts of the computer) and the "mental" side of things -- the execution of the algorithm (an algorithm being a "mental" thing) carry on by themselves, even if the builder of the computer or inventor of the algorithm dies in the interim, or takes off to the beach and thinks about murder mysteries rather than pi. This is the conception Denton is offering. I am not asking you to agree with it. But I've read the book and you haven't, and I've read it slowly and carefully. So I'm not going to take seriously any objections you have to my description of his conception, until you have read the book. Your use of the phrase "internal, or Aristotelian, teleology" suggests that you think that all versions of internal teleology must be Aristotelian. I have no idea where you are getting this idea, but you offer no grounds for it. I'm also unconvinced by your discussion overall that you have read very much Aristotle. Your knowledge of him appears to be mostly from hearsay. If you are going to keep discussing Aristotle, please point to particular texts and give me your detailed analysis of what you think he is saying in those texts. Don't spare the Greek, either. I can follow it. You commit an act of academic dishonesty by changing my words "move any particles" to "specify starting position". Even though you indicate the change by the use of square brackets, the overall result has me arguing what I did not argue. If this is typical of the way you argue in your book -- and by the way, I have no idea what book you are talking about -- I certainly won't be reading it. I won't get into the particulars of Dembski's methods, because they are a technical matter which would require a whole new thread, discussing the math and the concepts in *No Free Lunch* and so on. But I'll speak of ID more generally: ID doesn't have to say anything about the initial position of created matter in order to detect design. I can *know* beyond a doubt that Mt. Rushmore was designed, even if I don't have a clue what the mountain originally looked like, or where the atoms that make up the mountain originally were positioned in the Big Bang. That has absolutely nothing to do with how design detection works. Design detection is completely a-historical and requires no detailed knowledge of the previous states of the universe. It does require knowledge of natural laws, so that it can eliminate claims that mere necessity could have produced something. But it doesn't require knowledge of the original position of the particles that made up the universe. Since you are a YEC, I would far rather hear you set forth your *own* position on how the universe, life, species and man came into being, than entertain, for the sake of argument, premises and scenarios that you don't believe in. What is happening is that you start out granting other people's premises for the sake of argument, but then, instead of analyzing them and extrapolating them to their logical conclusions -- which could be constructive -- you are sticking in theological judgments of your own about God, creation, etc., evaluations which don't follow from the assumptions of the position you are discussing, and which aren't grounded in any classical texts from the Christian tradition, but appear to spring from your own fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants metaphysical reasoning. I have time to listen to an able exposition of the YEC position, and I have time to listen to an able exegesis of texts of Calvin, Aquinas, Augustine, Aristotle, etc.; I don't have time to listen to ad hoc theological improvisations which aren't grounded in classical discussions of these subjects.Timaeus
May 13, 2012
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"efficient and omnipotent" [God] is alleged to be above tinkering.StephenB
May 13, 2012
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--Timaeus: "A non-teleological process, such as the Darwinian, might be allowed to stumble along mostly on its own, with occasional miracles/interventions/insertions of new information supplementing it, keeping it on course for God’s desired ends, etc." In that case, would God be guiding an unguided process? Do God's occasional interventions make a non-teleological process a teleological process to the extent that He is injecting teleological elements into non-teleological process at intervals, or does it remain a non-teleological process even as God directs it toward an end, which would seem to be the definition of a teleological process? What happened to the TE argument that an efficient and omnipotent is above tinkering, which is one of the main reason's non-teleology was introduced in the first place?StephenB
May 13, 2012
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Science is all about repeating processes.
Erosion is repeatable but is it teleological?Joe
May 13, 2012
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Mung @117
Implying that you do think “external teleology” exists? The acts that you engage in, internal or external teleology? Who or what is pulling your strings?
When I say "external" I mean external to the physical world, or as Timaeus put it, input from beyond nature. I am a substance dualist. So my spirit/will which exists in the spiritual world is pulling the strings of my body, which exists in the physical world, by specifying the local starting position of various particles in my brain.tragic mishap
May 13, 2012
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The action of natural laws is not “external input” in the sense of “input from beyond nature.”
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Natural laws are input from beyond nature. How could they not be? They are completely immaterial, mental phenomena. They have no material existence, only material effects. I believe they are sustained and enforced by God, who, being eternal, really only had to produce them "once" in his own timeless timeframe for them to be made law for the entire timeline. So He can lie on the beach if He wants, but He still created and sustains natural laws once for all time. Even if they are not from beyond nature, they cannot be considered "internal" for any one thing since they are universal and apply to everything.
The designer establishes the natural laws, and presumably creates the original mass that underwent the Big Bang.
As a YEC, that's exactly what I believe, given the creationist version of the Big Bang. This view is not Aristotelian, or internal, teleology. If that's what Denton thinks then he is wrong.
God doesn’t have to move any particles for ID to be true — unless you count producing the initial arrangement of the particles — which are brought into being out of nothing — as “moving” them.
I do count that as "moving" them, though that particular word may not suffice to convey my meaning, as you pointed out. In my book I don't use the word "move." I use the phrase "specify starting position." From there I make a further distinction between initial starting position, the location of particles at the moment of their creation ex nihilo by God, and local starting position, which would include divine intervention or human intervention. The word "move" would apply only to the specification of local starting position, so I probably should have stuck to the terminology I used in my book. Dembski's explanatory filter would at least produce a false negative for anything acting according to necessity alone (as would specified complexity since the probability of necessity does not meet the complexity criterion), so with the correct terminology I would disagree that "God doesn't have to [specify starting position] for ID to be true." Yes, He does have to specify starting position in order for Dembski's two methods to detect His action. And ID is fundamentally about rigorous detection methods.tragic mishap
May 13, 2012
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Ted Davis wrote: "IMO, the main distinction between ID and TE appears to be exactly this: whether or not design arguments (which I and many other TEs will make) are 'scientific'." That is the 'demarcation game' approach, made for compartmentalisation of knowledge or division of labour strategies. It returns to a question I put to Ted in another thread: is history (Ted's home field) a 'science'? Is he attempting to 'make history (look) scientific' by combining 'history' + 'science' into the term 'historical sciences'? This is a philosophical approach to science (and history) to speak of 'historical sciences.' Ted seems to agree with Stephen Meyer re: uplifting the term 'historical sciences,' perhaps or even mainly against YEC's who often reject the term 'historical sciences.' What's the difference then between 'historical sciences' and 'science(s) of history' in Ted's perspective? One could rephrase Ted's opinion like this: "IMO, the main distinction between ID and TE appears to be exactly this: whether or not design arguments are 'historical'." They occur in history, of course. But do 'design arguments' deal with history (*when* was the design-designed) or not? As for me, arguing that the 'field' called 'origins of life' is a(n) 'historical science' is patently absurb. However, 'historical sciences' is a key term in Meyer's post-modern western call for 'scientific revolution,' i.e. as Timaeus says in this thread, which means "changing the definition of science," since "all social choices [to define 'science'] are revisable."Gregory
May 13, 2012
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