Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
faded you state: 'Since axiom’s are arbitrary, one can for instance come up with one that says ‘all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe’.' Let me correct this for you ‘all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe’ all things.' You have just violated the law of non-contradiction, that StephenB elucidates so well, with the most spectacular contradiction of all that one can make! Does God Exist? - Argument From The Origin Of Nature - Kirk Durston - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4171846/ The First Cause Must Be Different From All Other Causes - T.G. Peeler https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/genomic-junk-and-evolution/#comment-358648bornagain77
October 13, 2010
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StephenB said: The non-negotiable principles of right reason are self evident truths, one of which is the law of non-contradiction. The law of non-contradiction is not based on logic; logic is based on the law of non-contradiction. The law of causality is not based on science; science is based on the law of causality. Evidence does not inform the rules of right reason; the rules of right reason inform evidence. ---------------------- In other words, your 'non negotiable principles of right reasoning' are axioms. Now, there is nothing wrong with axioms, as long as we don't lose sight of the fact that they are arbitrary choices and not necessarily corresponding to the actual state of affairs in the real world. Since axiom's are arbitrary, one can for instance come up with one that says 'all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe'. Positing such an axiom is just a valid as the one that merely says 'all things that come into existence have a cause'. Since, as you say, neither logic nor empirical data can prove or disprove either one, it is pointless to argue about which one is true and which one is false. Claiming to be right on the basis that yours is a 'self evident truth' is mere bluster - many people find the alternative just as self-evident, if not more so. 'Self-evidentiality' as a truth criterion is worthless because of this subjectivism. fGfaded_Glory
October 13, 2010
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Upright BiPed: Similarly difficult to explain would be foresight, or the ability to envision a future state and then organize resources in pursuit of the realization of that state. If the definition of nature is the blind interaction of particles as indicated by natural law, how is it those particles envision a non-existent future state and then begin to deliberately manipulate other molecules to attain that state, as they apparently when collected as human beings?William J. Murray
October 13, 2010
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Aleta, I really do not wish to intrude on your conversation with Stephen, and I appreciate the thought you've put into this causal chain of events. However, what must emerge from this mechanical chain is meaning. Prior to Life, no meaning existed on this planet. Are you able to offer any reasonable chain of events that suggest that meaning can arise from physical law (which is by definition, bereft of meaning?)Upright BiPed
October 12, 2010
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Aleta @78: I like your use of the word "potential" in point number 2. Could humans, if they had been around to study the matter (and could be kept miraculously alive under those conditions) know that oxygen molecules were "potentially present?" I don't know. I suspect that, after the fact, they could know that the potential had been there all along, but to able to know that they were already potentially present prior to the time they were produced would seem to be too much to ask. In any case, the law of causality does not require that the latter stages must be similar to the earlier stages. [Meaning that oxygen molecules did not always have to be around]. What it does require is that the causal conditions for the change must be in place before the change takes place and that the causal conditions are responsible for the change. In other words, a new situation does not "emerge" as a surprise outcome from the old situation, but rather it "unfolds" into that which it was designed to become. A tree, for example, does not emerge from an acorn; it unfolds according to its design. Potentially, the tree was in the acorn, and if the acorn did not have the capacity to become a tree, there would be no tree. Similarly, a baby does not emerge into an adult, it grows and matures according to its design. Put another way, the law of causality means that the changes under discussion were the result of an "unfolding" of the causal conditions that were already in place and inconsistent with the idea that the new conditions were unplanned and "emerged" as a surprise outcome. If, in the context of cosmological development, you believe in emergence and surprises, you are arguing against causality; if you believe in unfolding and planned outcomes, you are arguing on behalf of causality. Focus on the difference between the words emerge and unfold. It makes all the difference. Emerge = surprise outcome Unfold = maturation processStephenB
October 12, 2010
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Aleta as I am sure realize oxygen is necessary for higher life forms to exist, Do you think it was intelligently designed ,,, NO??? How about water? do you think it was intelligently designed for Hydrogen and oxygen to combine for life??? Also of interest to the extreme difficultly man has in computing the folding of a protein within any reasonable amount of time, it seems water itself, (H2O), was 'designed' with protein folding in mind: Protein Folding: One Picture Per Millisecond Illuminates The Process - 2008 Excerpt: The RUB-chemists initiated the folding process and then monitored the course of events. It turned out that within less than ten milliseconds, the motions of the water network were altered as well as the protein itself being restructured. “These two processes practically take place simultaneously“, Prof. Havenith-Newen states, “they are strongly correlated.“ These observations support the yet controversial suggestion that water plays a fundamental role in protein folding, and thus in protein function, and does not stay passive. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080805075610.htm Water Is 'Designer Fluid' That Helps Proteins Change Shape - 2008 Excerpt: "When bound to proteins, water molecules participate in a carefully choreographed ballet that permits the proteins to fold into their functional, native states. This delicate dance is essential to life." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080806113314.htm how about the order in which elements were created in stars Aleta, will you once again say it is all just happenstance??? As a sidelight to this, every class of elements that exists on the periodic table of elements is necessary for complex carbon-based life to exist on earth. The three most abundant elements in the human body, Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, 'just so happen' to be the most abundant elements in the universe, save for helium which is inert. A truly amazing coincidence that strongly implies 'the universe had us in mind all along'. Even uranium the last naturally occurring element on the period table of elements is necessary for life. The heat generated by the decay of uranium is necessary to keep a molten core in the earth for an extended period of time, which is necessary for the magnetic field surrounding the earth, which in turn protects organic life from the harmful charged particles of the sun. As well, uranium decay provides the heat for tectonic activity and the turnover of the earth's crustal rocks, which is necessary to keep a proper mixture of minerals and nutrients available on the surface of the earth, which is necessary for long term life on earth. (Denton; Nature's Destiny). These following articles and videos give a bit deeper insight into the crucial role that individual elements play in allowing life: The Elements: Forged in Stars - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003861 Michael Denton - We Are Stardust - Uncanny Balance Of The Elements - Fred Hoyle Atheist to Deist/Theist - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003877 The Role of Elements in Life Processes http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.php Periodic Table - Interactive web page for each element http://www.mii.org/periodic/MIIperiodicChart.html as a sidelight, the complexity of computing the actions of even a simple atom, in detail, quickly exceeds the capacity of our most advanced supercomputers of today: Delayed time zero in photoemission: New record in time measurement accuracy - June 2010 Excerpt: Although they could confirm the effect qualitatively using complicated computations, they came up with a time offset of only five attoseconds. The cause of this discrepancy may lie in the complexity of the neon atom, which consists, in addition to the nucleus, of ten electrons. "The computational effort required to model such a many-electron system exceeds the computational capacity of today's supercomputers," explains Yakovlev. http://www.physorg.com/news196606514.html Shoot Aleta,, Do you think this following 'coincidence' of science and scripture is just happenstance?? As well as the universe having a transcendent beginning, thus confirming the Theistic postulation in Genesis 1:1, the following recent discovery of a 'Dark Age' for the early universe uncannily matches up with the Bible passage in Job 38:4-11 : For the first 400,000 years of our universe’s expansion, the universe was a seething maelstrom of energy and sub-atomic particles. This maelstrom was so hot, that sub-atomic particles trying to form into atoms would have been blasted apart instantly, and so dense, light could not travel more than a short distance before being absorbed. If you could somehow live long enough to look around in such conditions, you would see nothing but brilliant white light in all directions. When the cosmos was about 400,000 years old, it had cooled to about the temperature of the surface of the sun. The last light from the "Big Bang" shone forth at that time. This "light" is still detectable today as the Cosmic Background Radiation. This 400,000 year old “baby” universe entered into a period of darkness. When the dark age of the universe began, the cosmos was a formless sea of particles. By the time the dark age ended, a couple of hundred million years later, the universe lit up again by the light of some of the galaxies and stars that had been formed during this dark era. It was during the dark age of the universe that the heavier chemical elements necessary for life, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and most of the rest, were first forged, by nuclear fusion inside the stars, out of the universe’s primordial hydrogen and helium. It was also during this dark period of the universe the great structures of the modern universe were first forged. Super-clusters, of thousands of galaxies stretching across millions of light years, had their foundations laid in the dark age of the universe. During this time the infamous “missing dark matter”, was exerting more gravity in some areas than in other areas; drawing in hydrogen and helium gas, causing the formation of mega-stars. These mega-stars were massive, weighing in at 20 to more than 100 times the mass of the sun. The crushing pressure at their cores made them burn through their fuel in only a million years. It was here, in these short lived mega-stars under these crushing pressures, the chemical elements necessary for life were first forged out of the hydrogen and helium. The reason astronomers can’t see the light from these first mega-stars, during this dark era of the universe’s early history, is because the mega-stars were shrouded in thick clouds of hydrogen and helium gas. These thick clouds prevented the mega-stars from spreading their light through the cosmos as they forged the elements necessary for future life to exist on earth. After about 200 million years, the end of the dark age came to the cosmos. The universe was finally expansive enough to allow the dispersion of the thick hydrogen and helium “clouds”. With the continued expansion of the universe, the light, of normal stars and dwarf galaxies, was finally able to shine through the thick clouds of hydrogen and helium gas, bringing the dark age to a close. (How The Stars Were Born - Michael D. Lemonick) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376229-2,00.html Job 38:4-11 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched a line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed my limit for it, and set bars and doors; When I said, ‘This far you may come but no farther, and here your proud waves must stop!" History of The Universe Timeline- Graph Image http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/CMB_Timeline.jpg I don't know Aleta the evidence just goes on and on and all you do is shrug your hyperskeptical shoulders as if you had any rationality at all. I find your position completely absurd!bornagain77
October 12, 2010
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Let me expand a bit, using my example of the eventual production of oxygen from the primordial masses of helium and hydrogen gas, to see how much Stephen and I can agree on. Which of these statements do you accept, Stephen, and if not for any particular one, why not. 1. Oxygen was "present" in the primordial gaseous state of the universe, because it was brought into existence by a long chain of causes starting with that gaseous state, and no effect can happen that was not present in its cause. 2. However, since actual oxygen was not originally present, it be would reasonable, it seems to me, to say that the oxygen was potentially present: the gaseous state had the potential to produce oxygen. 3. Now, the question is: at the beginning, in that gaseous state, how could one tell whether oxygen was potentially present? Presumably an omniscient being could tell because he would be able to see all the causal chains that led to the production of oxygen. However, a creature such as us would not be able to see this potential I don't think: only after the chain has played out and we analyze, with hindsight, the causal chain can we say that the oxygen was present in the beginning state. That is, the only way we can know whether some potential effects are present is to see that in fact the effect has happened. 4. This example shows that something very different from a certain set of original things can arise in the world. The word I want to use here is emerge, which is a word I know you don't like, but the truth of the matter is that first there was no oxygen and then there was - what word would you use for this phenomena by which complex chains of causes produce things that are very unlike the starting components in the chain?Aleta
October 12, 2010
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M. Holcumbrink, I would like to add that, IMO, "desires" and other reasons are contextualized opportunities within which a person with free will can make meaningful intentions. A reason to "do" something, or intend something, is not the same as sufficient cause. Because apple pie exists, and I like the taste, is not the sufficient cause for an intent to eat apple pie. Nor would an additional circumstance of being overweight be a sufficient cause for me to intend to not eat the pie. Those are reasons which contextualize the framework for the expression of an intent; they do not "cause" the intent, because within the framework of all of those reasons, I might intend Jupiter to turn blue. Such reasons do not coerce the intent of a free will agency, they just provide contextual opportunity for specified expression if one wishes to utilize them in that manner.William J. Murray
October 12, 2010
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RE 33 M Holcumbrink I have made these same observations many time on this forum. As for the rest of your posts I find little to disagree with which ,I know, is a minoruty position on this board. No choice can be freer than to be able to choose whatever it is we most want to choose. Stepehn B well done! Vividvividbleau
October 12, 2010
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Yes, it applies to every particular situation - I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. For instance, will you agree therefore that oxygen molecules are therefore "present" in the large masses of primordial helium and hydrogen, because eventually that helium and hydrogen, responding to gravitational forces, produce oxygen molecules in stars.Aleta
October 12, 2010
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---Aleta: "Is there anything that I have said here that you disagree with?" Earlier, you wrote, "but it doesn’t help [the law of causality] us figure out any anything about any particular situation.” If the law of causality applies to EVERY situation, then obviously it applies to any PARTICULAR situation.StephenB
October 12, 2010
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Stephen:
Stephen writes, “Aleta: “The principle gives a guiding faith that we can find causes, but it doesn’t help us figure out any anything about any particular situation.” That statement alone, which is untrue, confirms your status as a hyperskeptic.”
I've been trying to figure what was so objectionable about my statement. Let me try to be very clear: 1. I accept that we live in a causal universe: all effects have causes. 2. I accept that therefore "there is nothing in the effect that wasn't in the cause." Because we accept these things, we believe that the world can be investigated and that we can find causal reasons for why particular events happen. Is there anything that I have said here that you disagree with?Aleta
October 12, 2010
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Aleta in 7: "And one last response: last time Stephen did this, I and few others answered “I don’t know – outside the scope of the ability of humans to know” to the questions about God, absolute moral law, and others. Stephen scored these as points for hyperskepticism, which I think betrays his bias. I think that such views as mine are good, reasonable middle-of-the-road skepticism." You are telling me "I don't know" to the question whether it was absolutely wrong for Hitler to kill the Jews and you call this worldview reasonable middle-of-the-road skepticism? You must be kidding me right?Innerbling
October 12, 2010
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OT for my fellow Christians on UD, this new song is AWESOME,,, Heather Williams - Hallelujah - Lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX2uM0L3Y1Abornagain77
October 12, 2010
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But trying again, Stephen, looking at the example I gave earlier: would you agree that we can say that oxygen molecules, as an effect, must have "been present" in the large gas clouds of helium and hydrogen in the early universe? That is, is this situation not an example of the principle that "the effect must be present in the cause"?Aleta
October 12, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Aleta: “The principle gives a guiding faith that we can find causes, but it doesn’t help us figure out any anything about any particular situation.” That statement alone, which is untrue, confirms your status as a hyperskeptic." I'm taking it that you aren't actually going to discuss this issue with me. I find it interesting that you are not willing to look at details and particulars, or to honestly strive to understand the point I am making.Aleta
October 12, 2010
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Collin @2, thanks for the kind words.StephenB
October 12, 2010
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[Ironically, hyperskepticism always leads to gullibility]. ---Pedant: "Is that claim based on experience or on a logical principle?" Both. Hyperskeptics, who begin by denying the obvious, always end up affirming the impossible. The two go together.StephenB
October 12, 2010
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Pedant in 61: "If self-creation is an irrational concept, is it a contradiction of: 1) a logical law 2) non-negotiable principles of right reason, or 3) an empirical pattern that we can rely on?" Yes to all above. 1) 0 != 1 law of identity and no set is larger than sum of it's parts. 0 + 0 != 1 2) Laws of logic must apply all the time or there is no reason to presume they apply into anything. 3) All empirical observations or patterns must be caused and logical or any knowledge of the world would be impossible to attain.Innerbling
October 12, 2010
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---Pedant: "Are the non-negotiable principles of right reason based on experience or on something else, such as logic?" No. The non-negotiable principles of right reason are self evident truths, one of which is the law of non-contradiction. The law of non-contradiction is not based on logic; logic is based on the law of non-contradiction. The law of causality is not based on science; science is based on the law of causality. Evidence does not inform the rules of right reason; the rules of right reason inform evidence. Do you believe that something can come into existence without a cause?StephenB
October 12, 2010
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MHolcumbrink, Hello again. The argument you are making is one many of us are familiar with. Materialists make that argument with certain regularity around here. If they can reduce human behavior to competing brain states, then they can deny mind, will, and self. With those denied, then the immateriality of consciousness and information can be safely placed into the pile of human illusory by-products. With that, theism can pack it up and go home. The UD contributor GPuccio reminds that this model of reality denies the only thing anyone can really know, for it is directly from our individual consciousness that all things about reality are inferred. In other words, the only thing anyone actually knows starts with ‘I am here’. To deny the self is a logical disaster. As for myself, the argument of competing brain states has always been incomplete. Firstly one must simply assume that competing brain states are actually and ultimately compatible in some material measurement, as if they have weight and the heaviest one wins the day. I am not trying to make light of competing brains states (in fact I see it as having a great deal of validity); it is just that the argument as an overarching model of reality is seriously limited IMO. As WJM has suggested, there is always another layer to the incompleteness of the competing mechanical brain-state argument. For a brain state to change by means of being modified, something must (be “willing” to) allow that modification to take place. It is for certain there are people who have no intention of allowing their brain states to be challenged by anything whatsoever (i.e. think Ritnour or Smokey :) ) Is there yet another mechanical brain state guarding the door, for or against, a change in mechanical brain states? A “Head Brain State” in charge perhaps - making these delicate decisions? Or, is it the self, asserting its free will? I hope you remain here long enough to see a materialist put forth this claim. It will be those contributors such as StephenB and others who will patiently force them into making the contradictions necessary to hold their view. It has happened so many times it cannot be counted.Upright BiPed
October 12, 2010
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---Aleta: "The principle gives a guiding faith that we can find causes, but it doesn’t help us figure out any anything about any particular situation." That statement alone, which is untrue, confirms your status as a hyperskeptic.StephenB
October 12, 2010
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Stephenb, I think all you are saying is that people who disagree with you are hyperskeptics. Also, what is the difference between the atheists skepticism of your God, and your skeptism (I assume) of all other gods and religions past and present other than your own?zeroseven
October 12, 2010
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StephenB @48:
You are making an important point here, and it is one that I thought about making in the opening. Ironically, hyperskepticism always leads to the gullibility,
Is that claim based on experience or on a logical principle?
Q: Do you believe in the non-negotiable principles of right reason? A: Why, no! I am an intellectual; I need empirical proof for things like that. Nobody is going to pull one over on me.
Are the non-negotiable principles of right reason based on experience or on something else, such as logic? If the former, then empirical evidence is needed to support them. If the latter, what is the logical basis for them?
Q: Can a universe create itself? A: Sure, why not?
If self-creation is an irrational concept, is it a contradiction of: 1) a logical law 2) non-negotiable principles of right reason, or 3) an empirical pattern that we can rely on?Pedant
October 12, 2010
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M. Holcumbrink said: "At this point, I think we have different definitions of “intend”." That should have been perfectly clear upon reading my post #45; in fact, I generated that post precisely because I disagreed with how you were representing "free will", and since you agreed it does not mean "free choice", but rather free intent, then we were obviously fundamentally disagreeing about what "intent" means. Do you not define intent the same way most dictionaries do? From dictionary.com: "1. to have in mind as something to be done or brought about." Note that it can be about something to be done, or just something "to be brought about" ... such as jupiter turnig blue. Please note dictionary.com's definition of the noun "will": "1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will." Please note the latter part of that definition: the power of control the mind has over it's own actions. IOW, my consciousness has the power to control its own behavior before it manifests as physical actions. How can the mind control itself, if mental actions like intent are caused by uncontrollable desires? How can one say that the mind controls itself at all if such "controls" are simply the effects of that which is not controlled by the conscious? IMO, you are attempting to subvert the very essential meaning of free will by categorizing it as something caused by something else. Desires do not cause intent; if they did, it would not be free will. As I've already demonstrated, it is possible to have an intent that is not generated by a desire to "do" that thing, observe it, or even care about it. However, it seems you don't like the fact that I've demonstrated it, so now you seem to be seeking to define "intent" or "free will" conveniently so that it precludes my spot-on example from consideration.William J. Murray
October 12, 2010
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William, you say: "I’m intending right now that Jupiter turn deep blue. There is no desire on my part to do anything, or even to see it. I don’t care if it turns blue or not." At this point, I think we have different definitions of "intend".M. Holcumbrink
October 12, 2010
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M. Holcumbrink, For now, I can only relate my personal life experience to you, as to why I find you position not nuanced enough, to put it mildly. M. Holcumbrink, I was a victim of my desires to drink to the point of being homeless for a very long time. I tried all sorts of programs, churches, recovery centers and prayers,, etc.. that were available to me. I would always be sober for a little while and relapse shortly thereafter. I was to the point of killing myself because I could not control my desires in the least. i.e. I could not 'muster desire'. (Desires which you are placing primary power to as to deciding our fates for our lives!!!) Yet I am sober this day as I have been for the past 5 years of days coming in November,,, God willing,,, but how was it possible for me to gain control of that out of control desire that was destroying my life??? It certainly wasn't by a 'base desire', as you would think of the matter, overcoming another base desire. NO!!! It was because I learned that my thinking directly effected my desires, which is quite contrary to what you are asserting is true!. For instance early in my sobriety I would imagine going to a Bar and having a good time, playing pool, picking up a woman etc.. etc..,, and that old destructive desire would build to the breaking point fairly quickly,,, But the way I learned to bring that desire under control was to speak truth to it. For instance if I imagined picking up a woman at a bar, I would directly address to that desire by speaking truth into it such as,,, 'You are not the suave good looking playboy that you think you are when you are drunk Phil, but you are in fact a man who drinks way too much at a bar, who in reality turns into a fairly loud foolish man that any self-respecting woman will avoid like the plague." And M. Holcumbrink, like magic, just by me speaking truth into that imagination of going to the bar and picking up a woman, the desire would subside!! Thus much contrary to your claim for desires primacy over our lives,, I had a desire that would arise solely from my thinking (imagination),,, and as well I had that desire brought into submission by my thinking (by my being brutally honest with that imagination!) And Indeed M. Holcumbrink does not Jesus himself say: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." ???bornagain77
October 12, 2010
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M. Holcumbrink said: "William, please give me an example of things that you do that you have no desire to do whatsoever." I didn't say that. I said: "... I can intend things I have no desire whatsoever to do. I'm intending right now that Jupiter turn deep blue. There is no desire on my part to do anything, or even to see it. I don't care if it turns blue or not. My ability to intend is absolutely free, unconstrained by desire, logic, physics, or probability. It doesn't even require me to be able to generate specific imagery or words, as my intent can be an uninterpreted, unfiltered primordial demiurge.William J. Murray
October 12, 2010
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Er, well, Adam & Eve desired life as well as the carefree existence of the garden, since all these things were “very good,” but they also desired to be “like God,” an attribute they believed they could obtain by eating the forbidden fruit. They made a free choice between competing desires. Someone said we simply choose the strongest desire. That would depend on what is meant by “strongest.” A desire to build up life is always “stronger”—in the sense of being more excellent—than any self-serving desire, just as life is better than death. It is quite possible, then, to choose a more excellent desire over one that seems more pressing (“stronger” in the usual sense) at any given moment. In fact we do it all the time. The meaning of the story is that we choose self-magnification, and therefore death, since we are mortal beings, over life; excessive self-love over love itself. This choice is set before us as the source of our misery. Since the fall, which led to death, all creation has been groaning in “bondage to the grave”—to its own mortality—which intensifies the desire for self-glorification. “Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.” It is from this bondage of our desires and of the will, which follows desire, that we are said to have been set free through grace. That is, if we are wise enough to grasp the freedom. To make the choice. But of course the Bible treats these things as psychological matters. Some of our commenters are taking them rather literally…?allanius
October 12, 2010
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"I can intend things that have nothing whatsoever to do with action at all." I agree with this. I am not arguing against that at all.M. Holcumbrink
October 12, 2010
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