Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
Faded Glory in 129: "The real issue is, you say logic doesn’t demand that everything that exists has a beginning, yet you also say that everything that begins to exist has a cause. Why is the one statement not demanded by logic, yet the other one is? Care to explain? The argument should go as follows "everything material that exists has a beginning" as it's fairly clear because of inductive evidence of entropy, second law of thermodynamics and standard model. This is clearly not true for immaterial things that have no material properties and thus are not subject to entropy. Postulating syllogism of "everything that exists has a beginning" is just begging the question and has a omitted the first axiom in it as in: 1. There is no immaterial things that are not subject to change and entropy. 2. Thus everything that exists has a beginning. So the argument everything that exists has a beginning is just assuming materialism in the first place and thus fails as an effective argument. However Kalams cosmological argument "everything that begins to exists has a cause" assumes causality between things that have beginning and thus is not begging the question as we have plenty of inductive evidence for causality but none for non-existence of immaterial things.Innerbling
October 14, 2010
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---Aleta: "Invoking “self-evidency” is not an argument" Self-evident truths are not being posited as arguments, they are being posited as the means by which arguments are made. If you don't think that the law of non-contradiction, a self evident truth, is the starting point for deductive logic, then tell us what is. Please tell us how any IF/THEN proposition is possible absent the law of non-contradiction. Please tell us how a syllogism could be considered valid reasoning under those circumstances. Please tell us how any kind of reasoning process can begin without a self-evident truth as its starting point. If you don't think that the law of causality, a self-evident truth, serves as the rational rule for science, then tell us what does. Earlier, when pressed, you stated that you accept this law, but now, when you come face to face with its implications, your reject it once again. How does one search for causes in the event that causality is not a law? How would you know which events were caused and which ones were not? How would you know that ANYTHING is caused?StephenB
October 14, 2010
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Aleta,
Invoking “self-evidency” is not an argument – it’s Stephen’s way of saying “this is what I believe.” Invoking whatever properties of God that Stephen wants to invoke (eternal, causeless, whatever) is not a matter of rationality – it’s a matter of assertion by faith.
Can we at least say that nonsense is still nonsense when we talk it about God? Wouldn't it be true to say that God cannot make a square circle, not because it is a limit on God's power, but because a square circle is a nonentity, in other words, it is nonsense? God can do all things, but a square circle is not a thing. It would be akin to saying that God knows, in inches, how far it is from London Bridge to Christmas Day. There are somethings we can say about God, and some things we can't. It is not all a matter of faith. It sounds like you're saying that we cannot know anything about God, but this itself would be something known. The agnostic must, to be consistent, claim that we don't know enough about the unknown to know that it is unknowable. The agnostic must admit the possibility that some things can be known. For the agnostic is saying "I don't know anything" and cannot then say "Well, at least I know this much about God, I know that God is unknowable", for that is a contradiction, and betrays an assertion of faith, the same assertion of faith, in the respect that it is an assertion of faith, that you seem to be faulting StephenB for.Clive Hayden
October 14, 2010
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StephenB,
What is to prevent the Divine will from creating [causing] the human will to be free?
Nothing at all.Clive Hayden
October 14, 2010
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Invoking "self-evidency" is not an argument - it's Stephen's way of saying "this is what I believe." Invoking whatever properties of God that Stephen wants to invoke (eternal, causeless, whatever) is not a matter of rationality - it's a matter of assertion by faith.Aleta
October 14, 2010
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WJM @ ---"And so, human free will wouldn’t be free at all; it would have been caused by something else –divine will." What is to prevent the Divine will from creating [causing] the human will to be free? If the human will is an aspect of the Divine will, would that not mean that when humans sin, the Divine will has sinned against itself?StephenB
October 14, 2010
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--fadedglory: "You still haven’t got any closer to showing why believing in something that has always existed without a beginning is more rational than believing in something that has begun to exist without a cause." The latter point is a self-evident truth that cannot be demonstrated. Thus, you do not understand the debate.StephenB
October 14, 2010
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faded_Glory: If a universe can come into existence without cause, can other things come into existence without cause?William J. Murray
October 14, 2010
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Stephen, You still haven't got any closer to showing why believing in something that has always existed without a beginning is more rational than believing in something that has begun to exist without a cause. All you do is endlessly repeat your mantra that the one is rational and the other is not, without ever demonstrating why this is the case. It is by now quite obvious to everybody that you actually can't demonstrate this, or you would have done so by now. Maybe you should stop for a moment and ask yourself why it is that you can't come up with an argument for your assertion. I think the answer to that is simple: both positions are equally impossible to demonstrate or refute. fGfaded_Glory
October 14, 2010
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Green, BTW, not every theist accepts that human will was "caused" by divine will; it is my view, for instance, that individual human will ***is*** an expression of divine will, and that humans with free will ***are*** god creating and sustaining the experiential universe. I think it would be difficult for StephenB or anyone else to make a case that caused human will is "different" from divine will and not be bound to the conclusion that such identifiable derivations of divine will were "caused" to have specific characteristics, which the law of identity would demand they have in order to be distinct from the divine will. This would mean that the characteristics of human will have some meaningful value in regards to the the intent extended from that will; IOW, what the individuated will applies its free will towards (will being this precise thing) would have been caused by god. And so, human free will wouldn't be free at all; it would have been caused by something else - divine will. Our intents would necessarily be characterized by however god distinguished our intent as different from divine intent. Rationally speaking, it is much more efficient and justifiable for human will to simply be aspects of divine will, and not distinctly seperate "wills". If will is truly free, it cannot be constrained by a caused identity or by caused characteristics.William J. Murray
October 14, 2010
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Green #121 "I realise that you find determinism incoherent, but I do not recall you presenting any good arguments to this effect last time." I don't remember libertarian free will, nor the compatibalist position, being under represented in that thread of 700+ posts. "I appreciate that you’re representing the determinist position more accurately and no longer equating it with materialism." As much as I aim to please, I must confess a belief that the capatabilist needs the monikors in order to couch an otherwise incoherent position. "Yes – this is a very key point, and one with which I wholeheartedly agree." Again, welcome back.Upright BiPed
October 14, 2010
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---fadedglory: "either there is something without a cause, or there is something without a beginning." The argument, which you and Aleta seem not to grasp, is that the first cause can have NEITHER a beginning NOR a cause. ---"I doubt if there is anyone who really can wrap their head around either of these,.." Your doubts are misplaced. ...so why the need to proclaim one to be ‘self evident’" and the other to be ‘irrational’? Because one position is rational and the other is irrational.StephenB
October 14, 2010
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---Aleta: "You postulate that God is “responsible for his own existence.” I postulate that in a cause/effect universe, a self-existent first cause is logically required. When pressed, you agree with that point, but when we start to apply it, you back away from it, hoping to have it both ways. ---"You postulate an entity and imbue it with properties that are paradoxical, such as having no cause." What paradox? The principle of infinite regress, associated with the law of causality, requires an unchanging, causeless cause? ---"The materialist just leaves the God part out, and accepts the material universe as it is." A moment ago, you agreed that the universe required a causeless cause. Now you say that we must "accept it as it is." --"Both positions postulate paradoxes that are not logically possible, so, as faded glory says, On the contrary, the materialist position is illogical inasmuch as the first cause cannot be material or changeable. The universe is both material and changing. Thus, your position is illogical. For you, the universe is both the first cause and the effect of a first cause. Excuse me, please, but it doesn't get any more illogical than that. ---"it is a personal choice as to which metaphysical postulate one wishes to adopt" The personal choice is between rationality and irrationality. Again, you are free to believe what you like. However, hyperskepticism is a comprehensively illogical position, which is why this thread alludes to 25 issues, not one.StephenB
October 14, 2010
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That's right, Aleta. When we go back far enough we hit a major problem: either there is something without a cause, or there is something without a beginning. I doubt if there is anyone who really can wrap their head around either of these, so why the need to proclaim one to be 'self evident' and the other to be 'irrational'? One can equally well apply those labels to either option. fGfaded_Glory
October 14, 2010
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Stephen: "In this example, you claim that the universe can be the cause of the very power that sustains it." No, I'm saying that once created (even by a God, if you will) there is no logical reason that an continuing cause is needed to sustain it. Like the law of inertia, once in existence. an object stays in existence unless acted upon by other forces. You don't need a cause for something to continue to exist. Stephen:"There you are again. You are clearly open to the possibility that the universe is responsible for its own existence. That is anti-causal hyperskepticism with a vengeance." You postulate that God is "responsible for his own existence." You postulate an entity and imbue it with properties that are paradoxical, such as having no cause. The materialist just leaves the God part out, and accepts the material universe as it is. Both positions postulate paradoxes that are not logically possible, so, as faded glory says, it is a personal choice as to which metaphysical postulate one wishes to adopt.Aleta
October 14, 2010
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vividbleau said: No it is everything that begins to exist has a beginning. Logic does not demand that existence require a beginning. ------------------- Well yes, everything that begins to exist has a beginning. This is not controversial, 'to begin to exist' and 'to have a beginning', are of course identical concepts in our language The real issue is, you say logic doesn't demand that everything that exists has a beginning, yet you also say that everything that begins to exist has a cause. Why is the one statement not demanded by logic, yet the other one is? Care to explain? I maintain: neither of them is demanded by logic. Both are a priori axioms, not logical deductions. I believe StephenB will agree with me here. fGfaded_Glory
October 14, 2010
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[The fact is, the universe, and all life for that matter, must be sustained. That is a logical fact].- --Aleta: "No, there is nothing “logical” about that at all – it is an assumption of your worldview." This, of course, sums up your dilemma. On the one hand, you say that you accept the law of causality. On the other hand, you protest agaist it and look for ways to avoid it. In this example, you claim that the universe can be the cause of the very power that sustains it. Believe that if you like, and you clearly like the idea, but it is not consistent with causality. Also, @124, you agree with fg --"The theist postulates God in order to explain the universe. The materialist postulates the universe. “I don’t think we posses sufficient knowledge about the world to be able to decide which of these two corresponds better to the actual state of affairs.” There you are again. You are clearly open to the possibility that the universe is responsible for its own existence. That is anti-causal hyperskepticism with a vengeance.StephenB
October 14, 2010
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fg "but this time it will be you who will add an exception: ‘everything that exists has a beginning, except God’" No it is everything that begins to exist has a beginning. Logic does not demand that existence require a beginning. Gone for the day. Vividvividbleau
October 14, 2010
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fg "Umm, I have not asserted that Stephen’s axioms are capricious or unreasonable." Ummm ? –adjective 1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision. 2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute. 3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government. 4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment. 5. Mathematics . undetermined; not assigned a specific value: an arbitrary constant. Vividvividbleau
October 14, 2010
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And to fg: I very much agree with your conclusion at 122. The theist postulates God in order to explain the universe. The materialist postulates the universe. As you then say, "I don’t think we posses sufficient knowledge about the world to be able to decide which of these two corresponds better to the actual state of affairs."Aleta
October 14, 2010
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Stephen writes, "If you will read my comments carefully, you will notice that I did not say one word about God. The fact is, the universe, and all life for that matter, must be sustained. That is a logical fact." No, there is nothing "logical" about that at all - it is an assumption of your worldview. Stephen writes, "No. I am simply referring to the fact that only when something unfolds according to a pre-established pattern has its development been caused. If you think that such a state of affairs requires God, then by all means feel free to draw that conclusion. Please do not, however, characterize my logical arguments as theological constructs." This is wrong, but it encapsulates your belief that someone had to have the future consequences of the beginning state in mind in order for it to be caused, but this is just you imposing your worldview on the word "caused", not a "logical" conclusion. As my example of Conway's game of life showed, one can devise rules that produce results that are not pre-established or planned but nevertheless emerge as the rules are folled "moment by moment" through successive generations. The world is like this - things happen because they are possible results of the successive chain of causal moments, not because anyone pre-planned them to unfold. As usual, you haven't in fact offered logical arguments (what logical argument leads to the conclusion that things needs a sustaining cause in order to keep on existing?) as much as assertions whose assumptions incorporate what you believe. Stephen writes, "Also, you seem unaware of the fact that scientific causes [efficient] causes are not the only kinds of causes. On the contrary, there are also formal causes, material causes, and most important final causes. The law of causality is not restricted to efficient causes. Is that the problem you are having? Do you labor under the impression that “final cause” is a theological formulation." I am aware of these things, but have been clearly discussing efficient causes - look at the many times I've mentioned the moment-by-moment causal flow of the things in the world. In this discussion we've not been talking about first causes (although we have in other threads, both in reference to the cause of the universe itself and in respect to free will.) Formal and final causes refer to the plans and intentions of an agent, and in my opinion don't apply to the universe, - that is the very issue that separates us - so of course I have not been talking about those.Aleta
October 14, 2010
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faded, and proposing the 'random' miracle of nothing creating the universe, a 'random' miracle which you say happened for no particular reason at all, is not completely irrational to you? I'm sorry if you feel it is 'ad hominem' to call you irrational, but it IS irrational. Shoot irrational is a much better word than some other words that could be said for such thinking!bornagain77
October 14, 2010
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vivdbleau said: fg your conclusions flow from using StephenB’s “arbitrary” rules of right reason axioms. But you assert that these axioms are subjective, capricious and unreasonable ie arbitrary.Since you arrived at your conclusions using subjective, capricious,and unreasonable axioms your conclusions are subjective, capricious and unreasonable. ------------------- Umm, I have not asserted that Stephen's axioms are capricious or unreasonable. I do indeed think that the choice of what axioms to adopt when trying to evaluate the world is a subjective decision - as does Stephen, if I understand correctly what he is saying (maybe I don't). I also think that reasoning and our empirical experience of reality poses limits on which axioms can be considered to correpsond to the actual state of affairs (one axiom of course is that there *is* an actual state of affairs). Some axioms are clearly not corresponding to reality, or useless as starting points to better understand the world, and are therefore universally ignored (brain-in-a-vat, or last-thursday-ism are examples of such). I think that Stephen's axiom ‘all things that come into existence have a cause’ is a reasonable one, but I also think that the alternative I proposed ‘all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe’ is a reasonable one. You may disagree with the exception I have added, but I don't think we possess sufficient knowledge about the world to be able to decide which of these two corresponds better to the actual state of affairs. If you have such knowledge, please share it with us. Here is another axiom, that I personally find totally self-evident: 'everything that exists has a beginning'. I'm fairly sure that both you and StephenB won't accept that axiom, but this time it will be you who will add an exception: 'everything that exists has a beginning, except God'. I may disagree with the exception you have added, but again I don't think we posses sufficient knowledge about the world to be able to decide which of these two corresponds better to the actual state of affairs. The choice between axioms like these is not based on reasoning, nor on empirical knowledge. StephenB often says this, and I agree with him. The choice is a personal, subjective one, and is undoubtedly grounded in the totality of one's personality, background, upbringing and life experiences. Calling them 'capricious', or worse, labelling people who arrive at a different choice as irrational, is just an ad hominem meant to decide the debate in one's favour by fiat. fGfaded_Glory
October 14, 2010
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Upright Biped: hello again too.
...as you know from our previous exchange here I find determinism incoherent, even when its offered in the name of substance dualism by a compatabilist.
I realise that you find determinism incoherent, but I do not recall you presenting any good arguments to this effect last time. With regards to this post, though, I appreciate that you're representing the determinist position more accurately and no longer equating it with materialism.
At the same time I am tickled that ID proponents can disagree about such things, yet still engage in arguing for the obvious design in the cosmos.
Yes - this is a very key point, and one with which I wholeheartedly agree.Green
October 14, 2010
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StephenB @ 110:
Green, the law of causality is compatible with free will. The faculty of will... is the effect of the creator God who caused it to exist.
Yes, you can say that God created the faculty of the will (i.e. the agent, or the self). But this does not satisfy the law of causality - at least not in the strong sense I defined in #109. If everything is to have a sufficient cause, then so must the 'agent-choosing-to-choose'. (Aleta made this same point in #16). However, libertarians deny this: they say that when God created the will/agent/self, he created an unmoved mover; something that can initiate a novel chain of cause and effect. If something can initiate a novel chain of cause and effect, then by definition, the initiation itself cannot have a sufficient cause. This is why libertarian free will is incompatible with the law of causality.Green
October 14, 2010
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Upright BiPed @105:
Padant, “Assume that one believes in a God. Does it violate a law of logic to postulate that one’s God is eternal or self-creating?” If everything in this material universe is contingent, then there must be at least one thing that is necessary – and that thing must not be contingent upon this material universe, but transcend it instead. Instead of violating a law of logic to postulate an extenal transcendence, logic all but demands it.
Those are good reasons for postulating a self-creating God. But if postulating a self-creating God does not violate logic, how does postulating a self-creating universe violate logic?Pedant
October 14, 2010
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Upright BiPed @104:
Pedant, Self-creation indicates that a thing, or entity of some kind (the “self” in this instance) created itself. If the “self” in self-creation does not exist yet (because has not been created) then that self cannot be the cause of the creation?
That seems to be assuming the conclusion. Why must there necessarily be a pre-existing “self”? If there were, wouldn't it already have been created?
Something must precede the creation in order to cause it to come into being, and that thing certainly cannot be the self, because it literally does not yet exist.
That’s true in our ordinary experience, but may not hold in the field of quantum cosmology, according to what I’ve read (and I admit I haven’t read – or understood - much).
You are left with irrationality of something coming from nothing – as in no thing, the utter absence of anything at all.
Whether something is rational or not is a value judgment. My question is simply: what law of logic does self-creation violate?Pedant
October 14, 2010
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Zeroseven in 100: "...How can you state with certainty that 0 cannot suddenly turn into 1. You are arguing from credulity – along the lines of “I find it impossible to imagine something happening, therefore it is impossible for it to happen.” No. I am arguing that to maintain commitment and faith in rationality man must reject the irrational explanations and always choose explanation that can maintain a rational worldview. It might be possible that we are living in an irrational and absurd universe I just choose not to believe in that and thus choose the most rational explanation I can find. P.S I think Upright Biped explained the problem of self-creation rather well. Thanks UB.Innerbling
October 13, 2010
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StephenB, I am always impressed with the sure-footed way in which you present your case.bornagain77
October 13, 2010
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---Aleta: "It is now clear to me that all this time we have been talking about the law of causality you have had in mind theological meanings rather than scientific meanings: God designed the universe so that it would unfold as he intended (an ultimate cause) and he continually sustains all of existence at all times as an additional cause separate from the natural causes manifested by the material world." If you will read my comments carefully, you will notice that I did not say one word about God. The fact is, the universe, and all life for that matter, must be sustained. That is a logical fact. If you think that the existence of God is a reasonable explanation for that fact, then you are free to draw that conclusion. I would certainly agree with the reasonableness of that conclusion, but I am referring to the fact that might lead you to the conclusion, not the conclusion itself. Also, you seem unaware of the fact that scientific causes [efficient] causes are not the only kinds of causes. On the contrary, there are also formal causes, material causes, and most important final causes. The law of causality is not restricted to efficient causes. Is that the problem you are having? Do you labor under the impression that "final cause" is a theological formulation. --"So when you say emergence violates the law of causality because it produces surprises, rather than planned results, you are just saying in other ways that it doesn’t include God as part of its explanation." No. I am simply referring to the fact that only when something unfolds according to a pre-established pattern has its development been caused. If you think that such a state of affairs requires God, then by all means feel free to draw that conclusion. Please do not, however, characterize my logical arguments as theological constructs. Strive rather to understand the logical contructs on their own merit. We do not need to know anything about God to know that emergence is a weasel word for magic and an anti-intellectual strategy for avoiding the need for causes, especially first causes.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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