Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
Aleta you state: 'There is no reason, other than religious dogma, to believe that there must be some sustaining power going on to keep things in existence, Please explain quantum wave collapse Aleta.bornagain77
October 13, 2010
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Home with some time now, so I want to go back to Stephen's remarks at 93, which I quote here in full:
–Aleta: “And you say that such surprises would violate the law of causality, but I don’t see how. What break in the chain of causality could there be.” If the universe “unfolds,” the seeds of its development were already in place in the form of causal conditions. It can only become that which it was caused to become. If it “emerges,” there are no seeds to define its development, no program to direct its path, no cause. It it had a cause, the cause would define, shape, and sustain its development. Without the power or direction to develop, it has no cause. Both the origin and the continued existence of every thing and every process we see must have a cause. The cause of the energy that keeps the universe going, for example, is just as much of an issue as the cause of its origin. The notion of emergence can touch neither of these realities. It simply assumes that the power which sustains the universe and keeps it into existence is no issue.
This is very illuminating - I see that when Stephen and I are talking about significantly different meanings of causality. First, I have assumed that we have been talking about proximate, local causes: the causes of the natural world by which the state of affairs at moment A causes the state of affairs at the next moment B, which causes C, etc., or as we say, a causal chain. But Stephen appears to be talking about something different. He writes, "Both the origin and the continued existence of every thing and every process we see must have a cause. The cause of the energy that keeps the universe going, for example, is just as much of an issue as the cause of its origin." let;'s take this sustaining cause first. Stephen you seem to be saying that in addition to the natural causes by which, for instance, a proton and an electron attract each other, there is also and alway a cause for them even continuing to exist. That is, I would say that once an electron came into existence its existence needed no further support, and thus it would then continue on, moment by moment, interacting causally with other particles according to its nature. But you would disagree: you would say that not only did it need a cause for it's coming into existence, but it needed a continuing and continuous cause (apart from its interactions with other material properties) for every moment afterwards in order to stay in existence. Is this a somewhat accurate description of what you are saying? Second issue: you write, "If the universe “unfolds,” the seeds of its development were already in place in the form of causal conditions. It can only become that which it was caused to become. If it “emerges,” there are no seeds to define its development, no program to direct its path, no cause. It it had a cause, the cause would define, shape, and sustain its development. Without the power or direction to develop, it has no cause." Here you seem to using cause to mean something other than proximate, local cause. That is, you seem to be saying that the cause of the beginning conditions also has to knowingly, in some sense, also intend for the future effects of the beginning conditions - that the beginning conditions must have a "program to direct its path." In the this use of the word cause, you might say that not only did the original cause cause the beginning conditions, it also "caused" the oxygen because it built that eventual effect into those original conditions. However, if this is your meaning, then we are no longer talking about proximate causes. So when you say that the idea of emergence violates the law of causality, I now understand that you don't mean it violates the law of proximate causality - you mean it violates the idea that all that unfolds from a beginning condition must be part of the program created by the original cause. It is now clear to me that all this time we have been talking about the law of causality you have had in mind theological meanings rather than scientific meanings: God designed the universe so that it would unfold as he intended (an ultimate cause) and he continually sustains all of existence at all times as an additional cause separate from the natural causes manifested by the material world. So when you say emergence violates the law of causality because it produces surprises, rather than planned results, you are just saying in other ways that it doesn't include God as part of its explanation. It won't surprise you when I say that I don't believe any of that: you are imposing a theological framework on our reasoning about the world that is neither "self-evident" nor susceptible to empirical investigation. There is no reason, other than religious dogma, to believe that there must be some sustaining power going on to keep things in existence, and there is ample evidence that simple rules can cause emergent events without anyone having made them part of the plan in the original configuration. But I appreciate you taking the time to further explain yourself - I feel like the conversation has been productive because I have gotten clearer on the issues, and on the background, unstated assumptions that people who see the world differently than I do might be making.Aleta
October 13, 2010
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RE 99 fg "Which conclusion are you referring to?" These conclusions 1) Since axiom’s are arbitrary, one can for instance come up with one that says ‘all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe’. 2) Positing such an axiom is just a valid as the one that merely says ‘all things that come into existence have a cause’. 3) Since, as you say, neither logic nor empirical data can prove or disprove either one, it is pointless to argue about which one is true and which one is false. fg "Can you lay out your arguments a bit more?" fg your conclusions flow from using StephenB's "arbitrary" rules of right reason axioms. But you assert that these axioms are subjective, capricious and unreasonable ie arbitrary.Since you arrived at your conclusions using subjective, capricious,and unreasonable axioms your conclusions are subjective, capricious and unreasonable. You could just have said I got up this morning, my car is blue therefore I conclude this that and the other thing. Vividvividbleau
October 13, 2010
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Hello again Green, I am certainly open to MH's reasoning when he is available to give it. I met MH at a recent event and found him to be a thoughtful person whom I enjoyed meeting. However, as you know from our previous exchange here I find determinism incoherent, even when its offered in the name of substance dualism by a compatabilist. :) At the same time I am tickled that ID proponents can disagree about such things, yet still engage in arguing for the obvious design in the cosmos.Upright BiPed
October 13, 2010
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---Green: "So whilst I myself am not a libertarian, I think libertarians are right to deny the law of causality; it is the only way to free an agent from deterministic processes." Green, the law of causality is compatible with free will. The faculty of will, through which the self makes free choices, is also the effect of the creator God who caused it to exist. The will, like everything else, must be caused, but it does not follow from that consideration, that it is not free to make choices. The created will [the caused will] is a faculty for making choices; it is not just more element in a deterministic causal chain.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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Perhaps, however, you intended the law of causality to be read in weaker sense? I interpreted it as: 1) Everything that begins to exist has a sufficient cause. Whereas you might have meant: 2) Everything that begins to exist has a partial cause. Libertarianism, whilst not compatible with (1), could be compatible with (2). Perhaps you intended the latter? :)Green
October 13, 2010
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StephenB, thank you for your reply. From reading this, along with a couple of previous comments, I hope I'm right in thinking that the idea is basically that 'the origin … of every thing and every process we see must have a cause' (#93). I think that this is a very intuitive idea. But I have to confess that I don't think one can have both this and libertarian free will. If one is true, the other is necessarily false. The reason I say this is because libertarians need something that is free from the law of causality - not something that is subject to it. If an agent is subject to the law of causality, then all the choices he makes are part of a deterministic chain of cause and effect. I.e. his choices are part of a deterministic process. In order for libertarianism to exist, something along the way must be uncaused. Typically, the thing that libertarians say is uncaused is not the choice (that's caused by the agent, as you pointed out in #14); rather the thing that is said to be uncaused is the agent-choosing-the-choice. This prior step in the chain is said to be literally causeless; it’s not caused by anything. This is why libertarians are able to describe agents as 'unmoved movers'; they quite literally posit beings that are able to initiate novel chains of cause and effect. So whilst I myself am not a libertarian, I think libertarians are right to deny the law of causality; it is the only way to free an agent from deterministic processes.Green
October 13, 2010
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---Green: "One thing I am slightly unsure about is your law of causality. Before commenting on it, am I right in thinking that this is the idea that all events (that have an origin) must have a cause? And by this, do you mean a fully sufficient cause? – Sorry if you have clarified this already, I have only skimmed the comments." Thanks for your comments. The law I have in mind could be characterized as follows: Anything that begins to exist must have a cause. Defined in this context, a cause would simply be something that brings something else about.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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I'm a little late here, but this discussion looks interesting. (MHolcumbrink, btw; I like your posts.) Upright BiPed @ 64 wrote:
MHolcumbrink…: Materialists make that argument with certain regularity around here. If they can reduce human behavior to competing brain states, then they can deny mind, will, and self. With those denied, then the immateriality of consciousness and information can be safely placed into the pile of human illusory by-products.
I may be misunderstanding something here, but I don’t think MHolcumbrink is arguing that the mind and the brain are identical, or that the mind can or should be reduced the brain. To argue against libertarian free will, is not to automatically (or necessarily) argue for the materiality of consciousness (and thus the irreality of the mind, the will and the self). As I mentioned on here a few weeks ago, you can deny libertarian free will but also be a substance dualist (I’d imagine this was Luther’s position as well as Calvin's). So non-libertarianism does not equal materialism. StephenB: I’ve enjoyed your post. One thing I am slightly unsure about is your law of causality. Before commenting on it, am I right in thinking that this is the idea that all events (that have an origin) must have a cause? And by this, do you mean a fully sufficient cause? - Sorry if you have clarified this already, I have only skimmed the comments.Green
October 13, 2010
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Padant, "Assume that one believes in a God. Does it violate a law of logic to postulate that one’s God is eternal or self-creating?" If everything in this material universe is contingent, then there must be at least one thing that is necessary - and that thing must not be contingent upon this material universe, but transcend it instead. Instead of violating a law of logic to postulate an extenal transcendence, logic all but demands it.Upright BiPed
October 13, 2010
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Pedant, Self-creation indicates that a thing, or entity of some kind (the "self" in this instance) created itself. If the "self" in self-creation does not exist yet (because has not been created) then that self cannot be the cause of the creation? Something must precede the creation in order to cause it to come into being, and that thing certainly cannot be the self, because it literally does not yet exist. You are left with irrationality of something coming from nothing - as in no thing, the utter absence of anything at all.Upright BiPed
October 13, 2010
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Innerbling @98:
Self-creation is clearly a violation of laws of logic i.e law of non-contradiction and law of identity and law that no set is larger than sum of it’s parts.
I don't find that clear. How does the notion of self-creation violate those logical laws? Assume that one believes in a God. Does it violate a law of logic to postulate that one's God is eternal or self-creating?Pedant
October 13, 2010
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StephenB @96:
The logical principle is that irrational assumptions lead to irrational conclusions.
That's a logical principle? Where is that principle enunciated? It seems rather like an empirical hypothesis to me, because I can conceive of circumstances in which assumptions which one person might consider to be irrational can lead to rational conclusions.Pedant
October 13, 2010
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StephenB @95:
[The law of non-contradiction is not based on logic; logic is based on the law of non-contradiction.] —Pedant: “That is a strong claim. What is the warrant for it?” Deductive logic is concerned with what must necessarily follow from the given premises. [If A, then B]. The reason that the conclusion necessarily follows is that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time. If it were otherwise, then the conclusion would not necessarily follow from the premises. Thus, it is the law of non-contradiction that informs deductive logic and not the other way around.
Now I think I understand your explanation. I think my problem lay in your use of the term “based on.” I interpreted that to mean that logic follows deductively from the principle of non-contradiction, when your meaning was that logic incorporates the principle of non-contradiction. If that was your meaning, I agree, and I thank you for the clarification.Pedant
October 13, 2010
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StephenB: "Hyperskepticism [there is no law of causality] leads to gullibility [universes can come into existence from out of nowhere]." This is nothing more than an opinion (and quite an insulting one). How can you possibly determine that universes cannot come into existence from out of nowhere? Innerbling, same comment applies to you. How can you state with certainty that 0 cannot suddenly turn into 1. You are arguing from credulity - along the lines of "I find it impossible to imagine something happening, therefore it is impossible for it to happen."zeroseven
October 13, 2010
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vividbleau said: fg so your argument is that axioms are arbitrary therefore they need not correspond to the real world. Well then since Stephens axioms are arbitrary we can ignore your conclusion and treat it as the nonsense statement it is. Without invoking the very axioms you insist are not applicable at all times your conclusion is arbitrary as well. As usual you have both of your feet planted firmly in thin air. ------------------ You have to run this past me a bit more slowly. If Stephen's axioms are arbitrary, you can ignore my conclusion? Which conclusion are you referring to? Can you lay out your arguments a bit more? I also don't understand why you, and Stephen often as well, insist that unless something is always applicable, it is never applicable. Is there only room for extremes in your thinking? Why is it not possible for some things, concepts, rules, to be valid in a great many circumstances, yet not all? And what is wrong with thinking that sometimes we may be able to use rational or empirical methods to try and understand under which conditions such things are not applicable? fGfaded_Glory
October 13, 2010
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Response to Pedant in 92: Self-creation is the idea that something can come out of non-being and create itself. Something creating itself from non-being is same as 0 suddenly turning into 1 or any other number you can think of for no good reason at all. This is because at the first steps of self-creation out of non-being the first structure has to pop into being without any cause at all out of nothing. If there is something causing the first structure to come into being it's no longer self-creation. Self-creation is clearly a violation of laws of logic i.e law of non-contradiction and law of identity and law that no set is larger than sum of it's parts. As a practical belief self-creation is the most irrational thing one can believe even belief of Harry Potter books as a factual account of the world events would be more rational than that. I cannot think of any fictional claim that violates reason more than the claim that something can create itself out of non-being. As William Lane Craig says "it's worse than magic". I have faith that we are living in a rational world that is knowable by means of deduction, induction and application of laws of logic. This is a prescriptive worldview that asserts a priori that reason must apply at all times no matter how strange the behavior we observe. That is why I reject self-creation a priori.Innerbling
October 13, 2010
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RE 83 fg "Now, there is nothing wrong with axioms, as long as we don’t lose sight of the fact that they are arbitrary choices and not necessarily corresponding to the actual state of affairs in the real world." fg so your argument is that axioms are arbitrary therefore they need not correspond to the real world. Well then since Stephens axioms are arbitrary we can ignore your conclusion and treat it as the nonsense statement it is. Without invoking the very axioms you insist are not applicable at all times your conclusion is arbitrary as well. As usual you have both of your feet planted firmly in thin air. Vividvividbleau
October 13, 2010
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---Pedant: "Alternatively, if it is based on a logical principle, what is the logical principle?" [Hyperskepticism leads to gullibility]. The logical principle is that irrational assumptions lead to irrational conclusions. Hyperskepticism [there is no law of causality] leads to gullibility [universes can come into existence from out of nowhere]. Hyperskepticism [there are no abolute truths] leads to gullibility and irrationality [it is absolutely true that there are no absolute truths.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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[The law of non-contradiction is not based on logic; logic is based on the law of non-contradiction.] ---Pedant: "That is a strong claim. What is the warrant for it?" Deductive logic is concerned with what must necessarily follow from the given premises. [If A, then B]. The reason that the conclusion necessarily follows is that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time. If it were otherwise, then the conclusion would not necessarily follow from the premises. Thus, it is the law of non-contradiction that informs deductive logic and not the other way around.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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StephenB @67:
[Ironically, hyperskepticism always leads to gullibility]. —Pedant: “Is that claim based on experience or on a logical principle?” Both. Hyperskeptics, who begin by denying the obvious, always end up affirming the impossible. The two go together.
Sorry to be pedantic, but that looks to me like a restatement of the original claim, not an explanation of its warrant. For example, if the claim is based on experience, then it is possibly too broad, depending on the definition of 'hyperskepticism.' Alternatively, if it is based on a logical principle, what is the logical principle? I suspect that it is argument by definition, as markf pointed out @24:
It is easy to list your beliefs and then claim that anyone who disagrees is being excessively sceptical. It depends on why the other person disagrees with you.
Pedant
October 13, 2010
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--Aleta: "And you say that such surprises would violate the law of causality, but I don’t see how. What break in the chain of causality could there be." If the universe "unfolds," the seeds of its development were already in place in the form of causal conditions. It can only become that which it was caused to become. If it "emerges," there are no seeds to define its development, no program to direct its path, no cause. It it had a cause, the cause would define, shape, and sustain its development. Without the power or direction to develop, it has no cause. Both the origin and the continued existence of every thing and every process we see must have a cause. The cause of the energy that keeps the universe going, for example, is just as much of an issue as the cause of its origin. The notion of emergence can touch neither of these realities. It simply assumes that the power which sustains the universe and keeps it into existence is no issue.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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Innerbling @66:
1) 0 != 1 law of identity and no set is larger than sum of it’s parts. 0 + 0 != 1
What does that have to do with whether self-creation violates a logical law?
2) Laws of logic must apply all the time or there is no reason to presume they apply into anything.
That’s fine, but what law of logic does the idea of self-creation violate?
3) All empirical observations or patterns must be caused and logical or any knowledge of the world would be impossible to attain.
Are you saying that it is a priori impossible for anything to be self-caused? How can you possibly know that?Pedant
October 13, 2010
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StephenB @65:
The law of non-contradiction is not based on logic; logic is based on the law of non-contradiction.
That is a strong claim. What is the warrant for it?
Evidence does not inform the rules of right reason; the rules of right reason inform evidence.
The question remains: from whence do the rules of right reason arise? What is their cause? If you would provide a list of the rules of right reason and an argument for their existence – aside from intuition - it might advance the discussion.
Do you believe that something can come into existence without a cause?
I don’t know, but the question was: Can one entertain such a proposition without violating a rule of logic? If the proposition violates a rule of logic, what is the rule that is violated?Pedant
October 13, 2010
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faded_Glory @83:
Claiming to be right on the basis that yours is a ‘self evident truth’ is mere bluster – many people find the alternative just as self-evident, if not more so. ‘Self-evidentiality’ as a truth criterion is worthless because of this subjectivism.
I think that is a point worth underscoring. How could one devise a test that might support or falsify such a claim? What is self-evident to Jane may not be self-evident to Jack.Pedant
October 13, 2010
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---faded glory: "Since axiom’s are arbitrary, one can for instance come up with one that says ‘all things that come into existence have a cause, except the Universe’." Thank you for disclosing that which so many your colleauges also believe but were afraid to say out loud.StephenB
October 13, 2010
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Aleta, How come your response did not SURPRISE me? :)bornagain77
October 13, 2010
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Thanks for replying, Stephen. I think we have some idea about areas of agreement now, and a key next issue to discuss. You write,
Put another way, the law of causality means that the changes under discussion were the result of an “unfolding” of the causal conditions that were already in place and inconsistent with the idea that the new conditions were unplanned and “emerged” as a surprise outcome. If, in the context of cosmological development, you believe in emergence and surprises, you are arguing against causality; if you believe in unfolding and planned outcomes, you are arguing on behalf of causality.
Although I have no problem with the word "unfolded", as it implies the realization of a potential, I think the distinction you make between unfolded and emerged is not significant, because I have no idea what the difference is between a "surprise" outcomes and a "planned" one. If by a planned unfolding you are referring to the idea that the universe was designed so that oxygen was destined to unfold, then you are applying a theistic metaphysical explanation to the situation. On the other hand, I have no idea what a "surprise" outcome would be: surprising to whom? It doesn't make sense to me to introduce a subjective emotion - surprise - into a logical discussion about causality And you say that such surprises would violate the law of causality, but I don't see how. What break in the chain of causality could there be? It seems to me you are taking the whole question back to the question of whether God exists or not - if he does, then he designed things to unfold as they have, and it's all planned, but if he doesn't, then what happens is a surprising emergence (although still following the law of causality, as far as I can tell.) Suppose a theistic and a non-theistic scientist were discussing this situation. What you seem to be saying is that they would have to use different words to describe the same objective facts: one would say unfolded to express his belief that the effect was planned and the other to say emerged to express his belief that it wasn't. However, the non-theist would still insist, I think, that the word surprise was not relevant at all, nor that the law of causality had been broken anyplace alomg the line from the beginning state to the production of oxygen. =============== Another situation to think about: Conway's game of Life. (I'll assume you know about this, or can Google it). Conway invented some very simple rules involving the cells on an infinite grid. Once a beginning configuration of "on" cells is selected, various patterns unfold/emerge and some of them are quite "surprising". In fact, for a given beginning state, there is no way of knowing what the history of the configuration will be - all cells may eventually die, stable patterns may arise, moving patterns which shoot out infinitely far may happen, spectacular patterns can appear, etc. Is this unfolding or emergence? Does that distinction make any sense, even in the eyes of Stephen's distinction. The laws of causality within the system are not violated. Even though the rules were designed, the patterns that emerge were not planned. They are just dynamic rules that make interesting things happen. ============== So, in summary, I think Stephen's dsitinction between emergence and unfolding is, from a practical point of view, a non-distinction. It distinguishes between metaphysical positions - were the laws of nature designed by some supreme intelligence or not, but in practice both the theist and the non-theist see the laws of nature producing things quite different from the original things in the beginnings state. "Surprise" is not a relevant quality at all, and no laws of causality are violated irrespective of whether one believes God designed it all in the first place or not.Aleta
October 13, 2010
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Upright, BA77, & William: I read your latest, but I will not be able to reply in the detail I would like for a couple of days. I hope you don't mind waiting.M. Holcumbrink
October 13, 2010
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StephenB, I don't know where this fits in the rules of right reason, but I've just learned a new 'rule' of science. 'To continue to deny the obvious in science always leads to greater absurdity of postulates': Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/bornagain77
October 13, 2010
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