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ID and ETs: Commenter is too clever by half

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O’Leary/ Bencze

Here’s a comment to “Extraterrestrials: Looking back a decade on ‘Are we alone?’”:

Anything that is intelligent but is not living on this planet is an extra-terrestrial intelligence, and that is what Intelligent Design proponents believe is the best explanation for life on Earth. But here you present a post that concludes there probably is no such thing as extra-terrestrial intelligence! Looks like you’ve figured out that ID was wrong after all, huh?

The commenter has doubtless offered himself an award for cleverness so I won’t go there, and will only say that his is an interesting attempt to deflect discussion from genuine issues:

1. On the evidence, there is no justification for the claims about billions of habitable worlds (and lots of inhabited ones) that I have been addressing in the series linked below.

Probability calculations (“billions and billions”) are about as reliable as a claim that there must be more than one type of rational life form on Earth because there are just so many types. No matter how many, there is only one rational form.

That fact should prompt caution about mere probability calculations when we do not know basic facts such as how life forms (or how higher intelligence forms, for that matter), or the details of the supposed matrix in either case.

Such evidence as we have suggests that complex life in the galaxy is rare. Even microorganisms may not be as common as we would hope. Not if we go by our experience so far with Mars.

Granted, we do not have enough evidence. But there is no warrant for concluding the opposite of what Mars has so far shown us.

2. Intelligent design is about recognition of patterns that, so far as we know require a high level of information, typically associated with an intelligence. Extrapolations about the nature of the intelligence involve additional assumptions (theism, pantheism, the Way, etc., and—off the beaten track—advanced space aliens). These assumptions are interesting but they take us off the immediate topic, a specific manifestation of that intelligence.

The only widely accepted alternative is a Ponzi scheme known as neo-Darwinism, by which the elimination of life forms that are unfit in a given environment somehow produces over time mechanisms overwhelmingly more complex than the most sophisticated computer system known to be designed by an intelligence. If you believe that, invest with whoever replaced Bernie Madoff—provided your country has some kind of social safety net. The fact that the crowning achievement of the neo-Darwinian discipline is “evolutionary” psychology speaks for itself.

3. Discussion of all these issues is vitiated by underlying assumptions such as the Copernican Principle, whereby Earth must be a usual and normal planet, when all reason and evidence suggest otherwise. And by the undisguised dislike many cosmologists feel for the Big Bang, which accounts well enough for the evidence but violates their beliefs about what the universe should be like. Sorry guys, next universe over might suit you better. Check it out.

One problem right now is that most science writers see their job as purveying  these attitudes, assumptions, values, prejudices, and beliefs to the public, all of which I think  are overdue for a challenge.

See also: What has materialism done for science?

Copernicus, you are not going to believe who is using your name. Or how.

Behold, countless Earths sail the galaxies … that is, if you would only believe …

Don’t let Mars fool you. Those exoplanets teem with life!

– O’Leary for News

Comments
RDF:
I actually have no serious objection to your reformulation. So now we agree on this: It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism."
Good.
It would seem to me, then, we should agree on the following: Any empirically-based theory that posits the existence of an intelligent being must necessarily be talking about an entity with a complex physical body.
No, it doesn't follow. But thank you for playing. Notice, by the way, that I cheerfully continue to answer all your questions and you conveniently continue to evade all my questions.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: In our uniform and repeated experience, complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. Do you agree or not? SB: Of course not. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.
My statement is a conjunctive proposition, not a logical inference, so there are no premises or conclusions. Have you been led astray by Mung's delusional ramblings?
The conclusion should read, therefore, it is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism.
I actually have no serious objection to your reformulation. So now we agree on this: It is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism. It would seem to me, then, we should agree on the following: Any empirically-based theory that posits the existence of an intelligent being must necessarily be talking about an entity with a complex physical body. Perhaps you'd like to reformulate this to your liking, but I think the meaning does follow from the proposition we just agreed on. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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Hi selvaRajan
Now consider Natural Crop circles on those paddy fields.
Sorry, I know what crop circles are, but what are Natural Crop circles? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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Hi Upright BiPed,
I have already addressed your point, and have acknowledged it without reservation.
Excellent. Then we agree: In our uniform and repeated experience, complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. And I would presume then that you would also agree to the following without reservation: Any empirically-based theory that posits the activity of an intelligent agent must necessarily be positing the activity of a complex physical being.
However, the observation that intelligent action stems from a complex organized system does not alter or diminish the observation that CSI rises only from intelligent action.
Yes, just as I have been saying this all along.
ID only attempts to explain the rise of complexity on earth at the origin of terrestrial life – not the rise of complexity in any context whatsoever (as your argument assumed).
This is your version of ID. What you may not realize is that "ID" is a very big and loosely affliated tent, and not every ID proponent - not even on this very forum! - shares your vision of what ID claims to explain.
Unable to defend your position any further, you eventually altered your argument...
Uh, this would be in your hallucinations rather than in the real world. Here is actually what happens: As different ID proponents each insist that theirs is the canonical version of "ID", I am forced to wade through the wildly differing views encountered here and try to address all of them. One decides that brains are not required for thinking, while another screams that it is riduculous to imagine any intelligent being without a brain. One claims that ID is the best explanation for the creation of the universe and the values of the physical constants, and another insists that ID only intends to explain the origin of terrestrial life. My argument is always the same, of course. It is the warring factions within ID that force me to reformulate my statements to address each different version of ID.
“one version of ID” “is not consistent with our universal experience”. As a logical consequence, the remaining versions of ID are.
Any theory that posits the existence of an intelligent being must, in order to be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents, hold that this intelligent being was a complex physical entity. Any version of ID that posits only intelligent agents with complex physical bodies is therefore consistent with our experience of intelligent agents.
This has been the counter-point to your argument all along, and your own recorded text agrees with it.
Of course I agree with it! I said it! It is not a "counter-point" to my argument - I have been making this point all along - which is why you have "recorded text" of it, duh. :-) So let us be clear on what we agree on so we may explore the implications. You and I agree (although not some others here, including Box and perhaps StephenB) that any empirically-based theory that posits the existence of an intelligent being must necessarily be talking about an entity with a complex physical body. Is that right? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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RDFish:
In our uniform and repeated experience, complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
Do you agree or not? Of course not. The conclusion does not follow from the premise. The conclusion should read, therefore, it is unlikely that anything related to our experience can design anything without a complex mechanism.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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RDFish @126 Here's rehash of my example from another post: Consider Paddy field. Its CSI is low Now consider Natural Crop circles on those paddy fields. The information about the geometric complexity of Crop circles were not stored in anything physical at all. Wouldn't it be false to claim that Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information in every situation? Of course if you meant in some situations, then I agree with you.selvaRajan
November 19, 2013
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Just look at UB’s last post (@118). Even now he fails to address my point!
I have already addressed your point, and have acknowledged it without reservation. However, the observation that intelligent action stems from a complex organized system does not alter or diminish the observation that CSI rises only from intelligent action.
Instead, he pretends that I have made some argument about some particular version of ID,
RDF your original claim stated that ID assumes “disembodied minds can produce complex physical mechanisms”. You were then disabused of this claim in more than one very effective manner. The first and most obvious of these is the fact that ID only attempts to explain the rise of complexity on earth at the origin of terrestrial life - not the rise of complexity in any context whatsoever (as your argument assumed). Unable to defend your position any further, you eventually altered your argument thus: “it shows that at least one version of ID (the one that attempts to explain the very first CSI in the universe) is not consistent with our universal experience. ” Please note the bolded text: “one version of ID” “is not consistent with our universal experience”. As a logical consequence, the remaining versions of ID are. This has been the counter-point to your argument all along, and your own recorded text agrees with it.Upright BiPed
November 19, 2013
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Or, yet again, if we try to frame it as an argument we get: Premise: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information. Conclusion: therefore, without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. Once again, a non-sequitur. The conclusion just does not follow. RDFish. King of the non-sequitur. Laugh it up court jester. RDFool would be more appropriate.Mung
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
At first, he argued that, based on our experience, no one has ever observed anything being designed without a complex physical mechanism, which I accepted arguendo.
Great, thank you!
Now it has changed into an unqualified “nothing can design anything” without a complex physical mechanism, which is an entirely different matter.
Hahahahaha. Yes, this is called a discussion, Stephen, where we establish points of agreement and disagreement. It would get a bit boring if we just kept saying the same thing over and over, right? So I presented you with another statement, and you are obviously free to respond in any way you'd like. Do you agree with this statement as well? If so, we can explore other implications. If not, you can say why you disagree. Don't worry, we'll take it slowly. Here is what I'm saying at this point: In our uniform and repeated experience, complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. Do you agree or not? Give it a try - it really isn't as hard as you think. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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Yes, Daniel, that is precisely my argument, and quite well put! Here, I’ll repeat it yet again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
That's not an argument, it's an assertion. Laugh away funny boy. We're still waiting for an actual argument from you.Mung
November 19, 2013
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I wrote, "I granted that premise arguendo–early and often." Well, now that I read RDF's latest reframing of his own premise, things have changed. His latest version is this:
Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
At first, he argued that, based on our experience, no one has ever observed anything being designed without a complex physical mechanism, which I accepted arguendo. Now it has changed into an unqualified "nothing can design anything" without a complex physical mechanism, which is an entirely different matter. And so it goes.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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Thus it is incorrect to look at information with the presumption that information cannot possibly exist unless a specific arrangement of matter and energy exist prior to it since the reality of the situation is that matter and energy are both reducible to, and therefore derived from, information in the first place. Also of note is that encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks demonstrated the conservation of, such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
,,,And here is supporting evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’;,,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
Here is one, of many, references strongly indicating that quantum entanglement/information requires a non local, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain its effect:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
In fact, this 'non-local' quantum information is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/
the implications of all this for us are fairly obvious:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence/Conservation of Quantum Information) – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video https://vimeo.com/39982578
Music and verse:
The Police – Spirits In The Material World – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq0KW-_48Cc Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
bornagain77
November 19, 2013
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Mr Daniel King you ask,
Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. Is that correct? If so, then you and he can discuss the implications for ID. If it is not correct, why not?
If I may be so bold as to try to answer. It is incorrect to believe that nothing can design anything unless there is a physical mechanism present to store and process information. And the reason this is so is because (quantum) information is its own unique entity that is separate from, and indeed more primary than, matter and energy:
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
In fact, both matter and energy can be reduced to quantum information:
New Breakthrough in (Quantum) Teleportation - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqZI31udJg Quote from video: "There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe." Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 Excerpt: "The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation," Nölleke said. "Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m." http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5389/706.abstract
bornagain77
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I granted that premise arguendo–early and often.
So you agree that in order to be consistent with our experience of intelligent agency, any theory that posits the activity of an intelligent agent must necessarily be positing the activity of a complex physical being. It's been like pulling teeth just to get this far, so let's make sure we're on the same page before we proceed. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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Yes, Daniel, that is precisely my argument, and quite well put! Here, I'll repeat it yet again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. The reason StephenB, UB, and Box refuse to engage that simple and obvious point is because they know it is, in fact, irrefutable, and this apparently conflicts with some strongly held beliefs of theirs. It has been pretty amazing watching these folks change the subject, erect strawmen, deliberately misinterpret my position, and simply stop posting - all because they have no response to my argument. Just look at UB's last post (@118). Even now he fails to address my point! Instead, he pretends that I have made some argument about some particular version of ID, and pretends that I have been "forced to acknowledge" something about my argument, when in fact I haven't changed it one iota since the discussion began. I just wish the people here were brave and honest enough to follow the evidence where it leads. If my argument turns out to have implications for ID, lets see what they are. But before that, we have to at least be able to agree on this simple and obvious point. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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Danial King
Why do you continue to attack RDF’s integrity and rationality and go off into irrelevancies instead of trying to rebut his argument?
All my questions are based on his assertions, not mine. And they are directly related to the discussion. He just chooses to ignore them because he knows that his bluff has been exposed. I didn't attack his integrity. I simply pointed to the fact that he dodged many of my questions and misrepresented several facts. I will let you decide whether that kind of behavior is consistent with good character.
I’m disappointed that after all of this discussion you haven’t actually engaged his claim which, in case you’ve forgotten, is: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
Where have you been? I granted that premise arguendo--early and often. The problem is the argument that he tried to frame based on the premise, which doesn't follow. Obviously, you are unaware of it, which prompts me to think that you are mindlessly playing the role of cheerleader for an anti-ID partisan. Never accept RDF's summary of anything. It will always be misrepresentative of the facts.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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RDF @ 114,
I guess Upright BiPed has given up too. Once I made it clear that he too was arguing against straw men that he was creating, he found he had no counter-argument, and just stopped responding.
Your argument has been reduced to being valid only against an ID position that virtually no one takes (certainly not me). You were forced to acknowledge this fact, and did so. It is unclear to me what further action you think I am obligated to take.Upright BiPed
November 19, 2013
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StephenB, Why do you continue to attack RDF's integrity and rationality and go off into irrelevancies instead of trying to rebut his argument? I'm disappointed that after all of this discussion you haven't actually engaged his claim which, in case you've forgotten, is: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. Is that correct? If so, then you and he can discuss the implications for ID. If it is not correct, why not? Thank you.Daniel King
November 19, 2013
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I guess Upright BiPed has given up too. Once I made it clear that he too was arguing against straw men that he was creating, he found he had no counter-argument, and just stopped responding. And Box too!
Well, not exactly. Actually RDF slinks away from UB's questions and Box concluded that RDF is not a rational person. So, in response RDF does a victory dance. You've got to love it.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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I’ve answered you dozens of times – over and over and over again. You don’t like my answers, and so you pretend that I don’t answer.
Wow, RD slinks away again. He says that we "think with our brain" and claims that I deny it. Yet if I ask him if that means that our thoughts pass through the brain or originate in the brain, the essential issue at stake, he runs away.
HAHAHAHAHAHahahahahah there you go again! You want so badly for me to adopt some position that you can argue against!
RD slinks away yet again. He says that many who believe in immortal souls also agree that the brain leads the mind. Yet when I ask him for evidence, he runs away. Always watch for the HaHaHaHaHa. It means RDF has been busted.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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I guess Upright BiPed has given up too. Once I made it clear that he too was arguing against straw men that he was creating, he found he had no counter-argument, and just stopped responding. And Box too! Where are your good-faith concessions, people? Where is your integrity?RDFish
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Well, let’s examine your reasoning here. Does your phrase “think with the brain” mean that thoughts pass through the brain or does it mean that thoughts originate in or from the brain? RDF Slinks away and heads for the tall grass. No answer.
I've answered you dozens of times - over and over and over again. You don't like my answers, and so you pretend that I don't answer. The reason you do this is because my answers are undeniably true, but they go against your religious beliefs, and that puts you into an irrational state. Here for the 1000th time is my answer: Nobody (neither you nor I nor anyone else) understands how brains work, whether or not they operate completely according to known physical principles, or whether or not something that completely transcends our understanding is involved in conscious thought. I therefore take no position on those questions. What is obviously true, however, is that brains are necessary for human thought. And more generally, nothing can design anything without some complex physical mechanism to store and process information. You know that what I say is true, but you hate it, and so you desperately try to change the subject. Then the funniest part is when you accuse ME of avoiding the topic!
Virtually everyone who studies neuroscience or cognitive science would agree with my statement – even those who relatively few who believe in dualism and immortal souls. Contrary to your illogical claim, no one who believes in an immortal rational soul and knows what that means could ever say that thoughts originate in or from the brain. Alas, you are bluffing again. I call your bluff. Produce the evidence.
HAHAHAHAHAHahahahahah there you go again! You want so badly for me to adopt some position that you can argue against! Too bad for you - that is not my position, so here you are arguing against a position that nobody here is taking! You are hysterical! For the 1001th time here is MY position. Not the position of some materialist neuroscientist, or some evolutionist, or some other person. MY POSITION, which you are terrified of, and refuse to engage: MY POSITION is that our shared experience confirms that human brains are necessary for human thought, and that nothing can design anything without some complex physical mechanism to store and process information. Once you agree with this simple, obvious, and undeniably true statement, we can explore the implications for ID theory. But you won't, of course. Instead, you will try desperately to change the subject, to pretend I am saying something I am not saying. Hahahahahahahahaha Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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RDFish
ME slinking away? Hahahahaha.
Yes, you slinking away. SB: Well, let’s examine your reasoning here. Does your phrase “think with the brain” mean that thoughts pass through the brain or does it mean that thoughts originate in or from the brain? RDF Slinks away and heads for the tall grass. No answer. SB" Only materialsts think that the brain leads the mind. RDF
Virtually everyone who studies neuroscience or cognitive science would agree with my statement – even those who relatively few who believe in dualism and immortal souls.
Contrary to your illogical claim, no one who believes in an immortal rational soul and knows what that means could ever say that thoughts originate in or from the brain. Alas, you are bluffing again. I call your bluff. Produce the evidence. RDF Slinks away and heads for the tall grass. No answer. Yes, you slinking away. It's interesting. Each time you try to bluff your way out of a refutation, you go into your HaHaHaHaHa routine. Don't ever try to play poker.StephenB
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. SB: So you say.
So says our uniform and repeated experience.
The designer of life will be happy to hear it.
And you wonder why everyone thinks that ID is a sham - religious folks pretending to follow the evidence where it leads EXCEPT when that evidence contradicts their religious views. What a joke!
Meanwhile you slink away from my question:
ME slinking away? Hahahahaha. I have watched as people attack every strawman they can think of - and as I patiently reiterate that my argument is based only on our experience, they slink away without acknowledging that my actual argument (rather than these strawmen) is obviously correct. Why don't you admit that I'm correct about this? Where is your integrity?
“Does he (RDF) or does he not claim that thoughts originate from or in the brain?
My claim is that complex physical mechanism is necessary for intelligent action.
Is he or is he not claiming that neuroscientists are, or have been, making this claim?”
There are neuroscientists that make all sorts of claims, but I have never read anyone who believed that a human being could design something without using their brain. Are you really so terrified to follow the evidence where it leads? Why don't you just concede this simple, obvious point, and then we can explore the implications for ID? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 19, 2013
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RDF
Here it is again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything.
So you say. The designer of life will be happy to hear it. Meanwhile you slink away from my question: “Does he (RDF) or does he not claim that thoughts originate from or in the brain? Is he or is he not claiming that neuroscientists are, or have been, making this claim?”StephenB
November 19, 2013
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blockauoteHere it is again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. So you say. The designer of life will be happy to hear it. Meanwhile you slink away from my question: "Does he (RDF) or does he not claim that thoughts originate from or in the brain? Is he or is he not claiming that neuroscientists are, or have been, making this claim?"StephenB
November 19, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Box makes a good point here, and I would like for RDF to take it on. Does he (RDF) or does he not claim that thoughts originate from or in the brain? Is he or is he not claiming that neuroscientists are, or have been, making this claim.
Box makes a perfectly insane point here, Stephen. You can play with words all you'd like, and try to misinterpret everything I say so you don't have to face the simple, obvious truth that I am forcing you to accept. Here it is again: Complex physical mechanism is required to store and process information, and without such a mechanism, nothing can design anything. It is really something to watch you folks squirm when faced with the most clear and obvious truth imaginable. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 18, 2013
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Hi Box,
RDF: While of course there are plenty of ways to study subjective states (discover the physiological correlates of consciousness, interpret patient reports, and so on) that particular matter is irrelevant to my argument (…) BOX: It is also irrelevant to my argument, so one might wonder why you brought it up.
Once again, I didn't bring up the subject of consciousness, you did. (see post #24). Not only are you very confused about the argument you're making, you can't even keep straight who said what :-)
The only thing that matters is that – despite massive scientific research – no scientist has ever witnessed a neuron producing a single thought.
You are very, very funny. Nobody has witnessed a single spark plug move an automobile - does that convince you that cars do not need engines in order to propel themselves? I've never actually met anyone who has actually tried to argue that brains are not required for thinking. Please, I'm curious: What is it that you think brains do? Seriously - do you think they function to cool the blood? Where do you learn these things? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 18, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Our experience that designers use their brains is irrelevant to ID’s argument about causation.
And once again, the subject at hand is not ID's argument about causation. Rather, I have pointed out that any sort of intelligent entity that is hypothesized by any empirically-based theory must be a complex physical entity in order to be consistent with our experience of intelligent agents. You are unwilling to accept this simple truth, and insist on changing the subject when I bring it up. Obviously this is a very sensitive matter for you, and you are unable to address the matter rationally. That's OK, we can leave it at that. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
November 18, 2013
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Box writes,
We are discussing your second premise which states that “In our uniform and repeated experience, intelligent activity invariably arises from CSI-rich systems.” When I substitute ‘human thought’ for ‘intelligent activity’ and ‘the brain’ for ‘CSI-rich systems’ it says: “In our uniform and repeated experience, human thought invariably arises from the brain.
Box makes a good point here, and I would like for RDF to take it on. Does he (RDF) or does he not claim that thoughts originate from or in the brain? Is he or is he not claiming that neuroscientists are, or have been, making this claim.StephenB
November 18, 2013
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