Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID Foundations, 18 (video): Dr Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute presents the case for Intelligent Design (with particular reference to OoL)

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Here, HT WK:

[youtube NbluTDb1Nfs]

Take an hour and a half to learn what ID is about (yes, what it is really about [and cf. here at UD for correctives to common strawman distortions . . . ]), with particular focus on the origin of cell based life [OoL], through watching a public presentation in the UK from a leading ID thinker, Stephen Meyer.

Notice the distinction he underscores relative to the common demonising rhetorical projection of “Right-wing Fundamentalist theocratic agendas” etc.

I clip from the video:

Meyer’s summary of the design inference

Let me also draw in the design inference explanatory filter considered on a per aspect basis, as was presented in the very first post in the ID Foundations series:

The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign
The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign

(NB: Observe Meyer here, on ID’s scientific bona fides.)

It is probably also helpful to add the following, from a reply by Meyer to a hostile review of his book, Signature in the Cell. (It seems that things have got worse over the past few years, we used to have no-views — hostile pretended “reviews” of books not read — now we have hostile no-views of books not yet published.)

Clipping:

The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of  functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). [–> Notice the usage] Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . .  In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion]  Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk [[the hostile reviewer], nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . .

Food for thought.

Foundational. END

Comments
So keiths sez that unguided evolution is not a blind search but a blind exploration? explore: 2- To search into or travel in for the purpose of discovery search: 1-To make a thorough examination of; look over carefully in order to find something; explore. There doesn't seem to be much of a difference between searching and exploring. And that means keiths is a bigger dolt than we thought.Joe
April 23, 2013
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KF #101 I'm not dismissive of 'design theory.' Much 'design theory' I accept and (try to) learn from. It is specifically (surely you can understand 'pattern recognition'!) the notion of 'INTELLIGENT DESIGN THEORY' that is problematic. KF is quite clearly not a defender of 'design theory' (if he were, he would regularly cite non-ID design theorists) but a proponent of 'intelligent design theory.' There's a difference, folks, whether or not you like to admit it in public. Repeat: Dr. James Tour rejects ID theory – doesn’t think it is scientific. You folks avoid this fact like a plague on your houses. Facing truth seems unimportant to you when you continually do this.Gregory
April 23, 2013
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Now keiths is relegated to just saying anything:
Evolution explores the haystack by starting from the current needle and exploring the points in the haystack that it can reach from there. If it finds a needle at any of those reachable points, then it proceeds to search from the new needle.
What a crock of unsupportable tripe. Unguided evolution doesn't explore anything. Blind and undirected chemical processes do not lend themselves to exploration, keiths. Unguided evolution is as I said “whatever happens and if it isn’t fatal it may stay”. Deal with it.Joe
April 23, 2013
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PS: G, your dismissive rhetoric regarding design theory is duly noted. I raise you one entire course worth of response, here on.kairosfocus
April 23, 2013
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Andre @ 46: Excellent, headlined. KFkairosfocus
April 23, 2013
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Gregory, you've got nothing: Billy Preston - Nothing from nothing 1975 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_DV54ddNHEbornagain77
April 23, 2013
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OT: Axel, you may appreciate this musical prodigy: Bluejay: The Mind of a Child Prodigy – video http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7186319nbornagain77
April 23, 2013
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[GREGORY, I ASKED YOU TO REFRAIN FROM RUDE BEHAVIOUR. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND JUST WHAT SENSE OF "PERSONALITIES"* WAS INVOLVED. STRIKE TWO. KF _____________ * "7. Usu. personalities. a disparaging or offensive personal remark. " (Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc.)] ================= My “unresolved problems” are with IDism. IDists have failed to be honest or rational, to offer satisfactory answers. That’s the reality, not the fiction that KF is pushing. Human beings are involved in this conversation. Yet KF has the disgusting myopia to say: “REFRAIN FROM PERSONALITIES” Refrain?! Really!? So, I should just check my humanity, my personality at the door?!? KF wants people to be merely robots…why? GEM – rudeness is your only available conclusion because I thoughtfully reject IDism. I reflexively reject your pretentious claims to ‘scientific’ relevance. Abrahamic believers are properly theists, but we are not naturalistic-IDists who ‘should’ embrace IDism. We see through this façade and wish to move forward without entertaining your reductionistic appeals. Many, many, many scholars are theists and get along just fine with the mainstream evolutionary theories (including Darwinian theories). You cite as if to demand ‘career busting’ – this is a minority few ‘rebels’. Most scholars are interested in truths, but the IDM focuses its attention on a minority of ideologues and expends its energy and resources almost entirely on them. I’m not a Darwinist, neither do I think Darwinian evolution provides a satisfactory ‘philosophy/theology of OoL.’ That is not new or controversial. But I do NOT accept bitism aka IDism. There is no need for that! You want to PROOVE ‘design/Design’ using statistics and mathematics. I believe honest Abrahamic believers will continue to reject your strategy. It is not intellectual, it is not smart, it is not credible. p.s. BA77, will you ever take a break from irrelevance? S.C. Meyer is clearly not capable of responding in a humanistic way, misanthropic as he is. As his follower, why are you? =========== The abusive behaviour that G is enabling, as clipped by BA77 above: >> Top Ten Most Cited Chemist in the World Knows That Evolution Doesn’t Work – James Tour, Phd. – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyAOCesHv0 A world-famous chemist tells the truth: Excerpt: In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys… But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity. - James Tour, Phd>> KFGregory
April 23, 2013
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Well by golly Gregory, humbleness is definitely not a stumbling block for you in life is it???,,, After a fairly incoherent, fairly self centered, rant you p.s. us with "let's settle all this ID vs. neo-Darwinism stuff with a game of chess!" :) Winner takes all eh Gregory??? :) Why not checkers or Go to settle the matter Gregory my man??? :)
Epicycling Through The Materialist Meta-Paradigm Of Consciousness - May 2010 GilDodgen: One of my AI (artificial intelligence) specialties is games of perfect knowledge. See here: worldchampionshipcheckers.com In both checkers and chess humans are no longer competitive against computer programs, because tree-searching techniques have been developed to the point where a human cannot overlook even a single tactical mistake when playing against a state-of-the-art computer program in these games. On the other hand, in the game of Go, played on a 19×19 board with a nominal search space of 19×19 factorial (1.4e+768), the best computer programs are utterly incompetent when playing against even an amateur Go player.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/epicycling-through-the-materialist-meta-paradigm-of-consciousness/#comment-353454
But, now that you bring chess up Gregory, chess does expose a fatal flaw in neo-Darwinian thinking:
Another reason why the human mind is not like a computer - June 2012 Excerpt: In computer chess, there is something called the “horizon effect”. It is an effect innate in the algorithms that underpin it. Due to the mathematically staggering number of possibilities, a computer by force has to restrict itself, to establish a fixed search depth. Otherwise the calculations would never end. This fixed search depth means that a ‘horizon’ comes into play, a horizon beyond which the software engine cannot peer. Anand has shown time and again that he can see beyond this algorithm-imposed barrier, to find new ways, methods of changing the game. Just when every successive wave of peers and rivals thinks they have got his number, Anand sees that one, all important, absolute move.” https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/another-reason-why-the-human-mind-is-not-like-a-computer/
Part of the reason why Anand is able to push beyond the 'horizon effect' of the chess programs is shown here:
Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video (notes in description of video) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/
Moreover, at the 11:50 minute mark of this following video, 21 year old world Chess champion Magnus Carlsen explains that he does not know how he knows, seemingly without effort, his next move of Chess instantaneously, that ‘it just comes natural’ to him to know the answer instantaneously.
Mozart of Chess: Magnus Carlsen – video http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7399370n&tag=contentMain;contentAux A chess prodigy explains how his mind works – video Excerpt: What’s the secret to Magnus’ magic? Once an opponent makes a move, Magnus instantaneously knows his own next move. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57380913-10391709/a-chess-prodigy-explains-how-his-mind-works/?tag=segementExtraScroller;housing
In fact, this ability to 'instantaneously' know answers to very complex problems, problems that would take super-computers a very long time to solve, has long been a very intriguing characteristic of some autistic savants;
Is Integer Arithmetic Fundamental to Mental Processing?: The mind's secret arithmetic Excerpt: Because normal children struggle to learn multiplication and division, it is surprising that some savants perform integer arithmetic calculations mentally at "lightning" speeds (Treffert 1989, Myers 1903, Hill 1978, Smith 1983, Sacks 1985, Hermelin and O'Connor 1990, Welling 1994, Sullivan 1992). They do so unconsciously, without any apparent training, typically without being able to report on their methods, and often at an age when the normal child is struggling with elementary arithmetic concepts (O'Connor 1989). Examples include multiplying, factoring, dividing and identifying primes of six (and more) digits in a matter of seconds as well as specifying the number of objects (more than one hundred) at a glance. For example, one savant (Hill 1978) could give the cube root of a six figure number in 5 seconds and he could double 8,388,628 twenty four times to obtain 140,737,488,355,328 in several seconds. Joseph (Sullivan 1992), the inspiration for the film "Rain Man" about an autistic savant, could spontaneously answer "what number times what number gives 1234567890" by stating "9 times 137,174,210". Sacks (1985) observed autistic twins who could exchange prime numbers in excess of eight figures, possibly even 20 figures, and who could "see" the number of many objects at a glance. When a box of 111 matches fell to the floor the twins cried out 111 and 37, 37, 37. http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/integerarithmetic.cfm
But Gregory how should any of this be possible if 'mind' is merely emergent from the brain as neo-Darwinism holds?
Are Humans merely Turing Machines? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvQeiN7DqBC0Z3PG6wo5N5qbsGGI3YliVBKwf7yJ_RU/edit “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter”. J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.
bornagain77
April 23, 2013
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Gregory: First, be reminded that it is by restraint that I am for the moment allowing you to comment in threads I own. You have unresolved problems. And right now with your increasing resort to irrelevant personalities, you are close to my limits. FAIR WARNING. Second, if you are unwilling to acknowledge the reality of censorship and career busting then that means simply that you are one of the enablers of same. With all that that implies about disregard for duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness on your part. Thanks for letting us know what you are. Now, I issue a decision regarding further participation in threads I own. YOU ARE TO REFRAIN FROM PERSONALITIES SUCH AS YOU HAVE INDULGED ABOVE AND YOU ARE TO CONFINE YOURSELF TO THE MAIN SUBJECTS OF DISCUSSION ON THE MERITS. YOU HAVE LONG SINCE EXHAUSTED PATIENCE, AND ARE BEING RUDE. STOP. Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 23, 2013
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“systematic persecution of anyone who does not toe the Darwinian party line!” – BA77 This is called ‘Expelled Syndrome.’ It is a particular (specified complex/simple) disease of the IDM (probably KF can count the ‘bits’ of this disease!). Most UD folks quite obviously suffer from it, except for those like vjtorley who have nothing to lose, who have never published or tried to publish a single thing in peer-reviewed literature. I’m not a doctor and can offer no solution or subscription to overcome this psychological disease. You folks must face this reality yourselves, but you are not yet ready to do this. IDism is host to more pseudonyms and multiple internet names than perhaps any other claimed ‘scientific’ theory in history! The DI promotes this intentional deceptiveness (identity crisis) to young people on a yearly basis at its Summer Program. The Secret Meeting in Seattle propagating IDism to American youth! Dr. James Tour rejects ID theory – doesn’t think it is scientific. You folks avoid this fact like a plague on your houses. Facing truth seems unimportant to you when you continually do this. “If Mr. Matzke enforces you you have lost all credibility in my book!” – BA77 Soon to be Dr. Matzke, as it seems. Such is a typical IDist strategy: you’re either with us or you’re against us; black and white American evangelical thinking. And you wonder why more people don’t embrace your ‘movement’?! What IDists say towards people who openly, honestly and thoughtfully reject their ‘theory’ (as witnessed countless times here) while pretending to remain responsibly ‘theistic’ and ‘traditional’ is simply this: “He must be angry; he doesn’t laugh at our jokes.” … “He must be stupid; he isn’t smart like us.” … “We are revolutionaries; everyone else is ‘plugged in,’ ‘passive’ and ‘programmed’ by the enemy of humanity.” The truth is that I’m laughing at your jokes which are framed as serious and I’m smiling at ID theory that really isn’t so important in the grand scheme of things. ‘Sacrilege’ – this is your likely next accusation. And of course I must be crazy simply because standing up and rejecting your ideology is responsible and necessary. Abrahamic believers such as me reject IDism because it is a distortive, backwards-looking ideology rather than a progressive ‘natural scientific’ theory for the 21st century. The vast majority of Abrahamists around the world already believe in ‘Design/Creation.’ But IDists seek to proof/infer/apologise this belief using ‘natural science.’ Most of us think this IDist ‘strategy’ is unnecessary and potentially destructive. Yet IDists will continue to think they are the most creative, radical, superior, super-heroes of academic freedom, revolutionaries, etc. What can truthfully be said of such persons is that they are delusional, stuck in neo-creationist wishful-thinking. And nothing more need be said. PSYCHE. As an aside, if Eric Anderson stepped in the ring with me, he’d be busted up so badly in the first round that he’d want to stay seated on his chair and not stand up for a second. My e-mail is available to him if he has the IDist gumption and confidence to try. We’d play the results here of his ideological sitting-down. “Gregory, I don’t know what country you are from” – BA77 It’s quite simple to find out; just click on my name and then on ‘About.’ You’ll find the answer quickly. That electric finger-work might be too much to ask of an IDist, but the links are provided. Honestly, sadly, tellingly of USEvangelicalism, IDism is so far outside of its claims of competency as to astonish most scholars regarding its pretensions to ‘natural scientific’ validity. IDism is not humble, it is religiously motivated hubris. I am calling Stephen C. Meyer out. Could he face a legitimate overcoming challenge to the DI’s CSC? Steve Fuller handily dominated him and Meyer accepted the ‘theodicy’ argument requirement of IDism while in the U.K. If Meyer should face me he’d realise how misanthropic his IDist ideology has actually become, probably unbeknownst to him. And yes, I have retired from UD. It is not worth my time. But I’m on working vacation now, with a few moments to spare. The falsehoods and dead-end daydreams of certain UD folks should be exposed to the truth, no matter how much it hurts them psychologically. My working approach is too far beyond the IDM for most here to allow themselves to acknowledge; it is quite far ahead of Meyer and Dembski and much less polemic (!). It is constructive, healing, helpful and ‘progressive’ in the evolution, creation, processes, origins discourse. What would it take for IDists to shed their obvious white-washing of truth and breathe some fresh air on the topic? Gregory p.s. let us put Dembski’s competence to test: I’d like to see Dembski take on nightlight in a game of chess. Dembski plays chess and speaks pretentiously about his ID mathematics, his calculative abilities and foresight. I’d put my betting money on nightlight any day of the week.Gregory
April 23, 2013
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Nick Matzke
Please let us know when Meyer explains why the origin of new genes with new functions through normal processes of gene duplication, mutation, and natural selection doesn’t contradict his claim that the only way to get new information is through intelligent design. He relies on a universal premise (conservation of information) which is extremely easy to show doesn’t fit the evidence.
Nick, I wouldn't be surprised if Meyers simply responded by telling you that mutations are a built-in part of the program. Program designers try to anticipate how users will interact with their programs. They attempt to write robust, ironclad code that will keep running. If I write a function that involves a division operation, I will error-detecting code to prevent users from trying to divide by zero. The program will keep running. In the same respect, if the DNA designer(s) understood that the cell's external environment (which the cell is programmed to interact with) would undergo changes over time, and sometimes radical and abrupt changes that, if not accounted for, could kill the cell, wouldn't the designer want to include code that would react/respond to the changes and give the cell a fighting chance to stay alive? And so an ID perspective for the OOL should have no problems with mutating genes, or Natural Selection, for that matter (in fact Meyer has said he's fine with Natural Selection). Programming the ability for genes to mutate would be a duh-no-brainer for a designer. Let's just hope that the DNA designer was better than your average Microsoft coder. So far so good ;)AnaxagorasRules
April 22, 2013
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Joe, envisioning Chance variation and natural selection wandering in a somewhat biased -- skewed -- random walk across config space on a raft till it runs out of atomic and temporal resources is a very useful tool. The problem is, that 500 - 1,000 bits, orders of magnitude too low, is long since enough to exhaust the raft's resources. The notion that such can find the shores of cell based life without wafting or currents pushing in, is patently incredible. Thus the tendency to try to chop off the root of the Darwinist three of life. But no roots, no trunk, branches or support for the twigs and leaves. So, at the root, we have evidence pointing to the only known force capable of creating the sort of entity we need: design, reflected in the reliable sign of FSCO/I which the objectors are so desperate to sweep off the table. And if design is there at the root, there is no reason why it should not be there all along thereafter. But, that gives the Lewontinian materialistsa the vapours. Instead of getting all hot and scattered in a dither, I suggest they need to first justify that hey on tehir premises have sound minds that can erect reasonable and accurate theories. The self referential incoherence will be readily apparent on a simple inspection. Then they can start afresh in a way that actually allows the evidence to speak. But first we have to put up with volcanic eruptions of temper tantrums, potty mouths, outing tactics, threats to career and family etc etc. And the ugly nihilist ruthless faction element Plato warned against 2350 years ago -- notice how they are ever so silent in the face of that little bit of instructive history (do you need for us to move on to an exposition of the parable of the cave and why the deluded denizens wanted to kill their liberators?) -- will have to be exposed and defeated. KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2013
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BA & 86: well said, saved me needing to further comment. KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2013
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Joe What OM really needs to provide is an apology and retraction for the false accusations by invidious association he has given, and TSZ needs to provide a similar apology for willfully harbouring such misbehaviour. Beyond that, it seems the mad rush to object, object, object has now reached a pitch that such do not even see what they are saying. I doubt that they intend pantheism, though that is a strict implication of thinking that the molecular motions of various items in some warm little pond exhibit purpose. And as for the notion that chance variation plus differential reproductive success based on the fittest survive and the ones that survive are the fittest, exhibits the sort of effective purpose that a designer does, that falls of its own weight. And the implication that the phenomena of the world of life give off strong appearance of design, puts the serious question as to whether such appearance is so as it simply reflects reality on the table. Which will not go away by question- beggingly redefining science and its methods in service to a priori Lewontinian materialism. Johnson's November 1997 retort to Lewontin's infamous assertion of a priori materialism driving science, is worth clipping again:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
But what they intend is to demand proof of a claim advanced by their own side, on the projection that it must be those silly ID thinkers who are making things up. Mechanical necessity or physical necessity of course demotes laws that, once an initial condition exists and in absence of disturbance, will unfold in a predetermined way, a la Newtonian dynamics or the like. That is the context in which Laplace famously envisioned a super-intellectual demon who, knowing the initial conditions of the cosmos, would be able to calculate its path at all future times. Chance, denotes the situation that entered current physics by the door of molecular motion. Temperature, for instance is a measure of the average random kinetic energy in modes of freedom for microparticles in systems. This reflects how it was realised that gases are made up from masses of molecules in constant motion, colliding, bouncing off walls, etc. Cf discussion here in my always linked on how this rapidly sets up a system with effective randomness, even in the classical world. Mix in sensitive dependence on initial and intervening circumstances and we see how we get to the sort of effective randomness of tossing a fair die. Add quantum results and we have a door to the evidently fundamentally random. Thee are ever so many physicalists or materialists, who imagine that this exhausts causal possibilities, and so we see Monod's famous c 1970 book Chance and Necessity. This also reflects earlier thought to Plato's day and beyond. Such physicalism, however, is fatally self referential, and incoherent once we have to try to account for the credible, knowing, reasoning mind that makes real decisions and must in order to reason and know. There is no good reason to not accept the contrast between "natural" meaning the sense: blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, vs ART, the intelligently directed and purposeful, aka design. Evolutionary materialism rooted attempts to account for mind as we experience it, either collapse into self refutation or else must smuggle in something more than matter and meat between our ears. As the linked shows at first level. But then, OM and ilk are patently unwilling to accept that we have thought seriously about where we are and why. In their minds, we are obviously ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked or some mix thereof. The warped, prejudice driven bigotry, is not seen for what it is, and hence such feel free to make all sorts of strawman caricatures, laced with the most nasty and false accusation or insinuation based ad hominems and set alight through sneering, snide or incendiary rhetoric. They do not see the nihilism and the way they are burning down our civilisation. Don't forget, in the pages of UD, we have had to stand up to defend reason and its foundational first principles. For shame! KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2013
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BA: It is blatant -- let me just say: White Rose Movement & martyrs -- that Hitler was of the spirit of antichrist, as I showed visually here, as it seems the sort who make such poisonous but ill founded accusations will not read the documentation (which is also provided via the linked). There is a disturbing anti-christian, utterly irrational hatred and there is a linked wave of slander that now seem to stalk our civilisation, that is flashing warning bells for those who are willing to listen;the recent incident of listing Evangelical Christians and Catholics in -- at the top of -- a list of extremists with Al Qaeda by a US Army presenter is emblematic. I suggest that those who are sober minded should try here on for a 101 on the warrant for the Christian faith, and if there are concerns on the sins of Christendom [any significant movement with a long history will have its sins . . .] I suggest here. But for those whose motivation is such a nihilistic hostility that it amounts to (frankly) unreasoning hate, they can only be exposed and so defeated, they will be that deaf to reason and benumbed to conscience or correction. KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2013
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keiths sez:
Evolution is not a blind search I repeat: Evolution is not a blind search
Yes, keiths. Saying unguided evolution is a blind search is giving it way too much credit. Unguided evolution is more of a "whatever happens and if it isn't fatal it may stay". And that is much weaker than any blind search, even a legless blind search. Did you have a point?Joe
April 22, 2013
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OT: Was Adolf Hitler a Christian? - The Real Agenda Behind The Propaganda - video http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/churchhistory/godandhitler/index.aspxbornagain77
April 22, 2013
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Mr. Matzke takes glee in Gregory's posts. Well O Well, I guess that ruins it for me Gregory. If Mr. Matzke enforces you you have lost all credibility in my book! Gregory, As to your comment here:
It (DI) tells students, on the first night, to intentionally hide their identities, to use pseudonyms, to pretend that they are someone else if they want to be taken seriously. Stephen C. Meyer is part of this planned trickery.”
And exactly why do you think this is done Gregory? The reason this is done is because of systematic persecution of anyone who does not toe the Darwinian party line! If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe the man who Mr. Matzke, as far as I know, is suppose to meet this summer to explain macro-evolution to:
Top Ten Most Cited Chemist in the World Knows That Evolution Doesn't Work - James Tour, Phd. - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyAOCesHv0 A world-famous chemist tells the truth: Excerpt: In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys… But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity. - James Tour, Phd https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/
Here is the modest proposal that brought persecution:
Scientific Dissent From Darwinism List Proposal: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/
Perhaps you may think this systematic persecution who does not toe the Darwinian party line is just one man's opinion Gregory, well you would be wrong in that thought,,
EXPELLED - Starring Ben Stein - Part 1 of 10 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZAAh_6OXg Slaughter of Dissidents - Book "If folks liked Ben Stein's movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," they will be blown away by "Slaughter of the Dissidents." - Russ Miller http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Dissidents-Dr-Jerry-Bergman/dp/0981873405
Moreover Gregory, I don't know what country you are from but in this country most people highly value freedom of speech. That is most people save for Darwinists:
On the Fundamental Difference Between Darwin-Inspired and Intelligent Design-Inspired Lawsuits - September 2011 Excerpt: *Darwin lobby litigation: In every Darwin-inspired case listed above, the Darwin lobby sought to shut down free speech, stopping people from talking about non-evolutionary views, and seeking to restrict freedom of intellectual inquiry. *ID movement litigation: Seeks to expand intellectual inquiry and free speech rights to talk about non-evolutionary views. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/on_the_fundamental_difference_050451.html Intelligent Design Supporter Expelled from Civil Liberties Organization - podcast - January 2013 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-01-18T19_01_00-08_00
Now Gregory, contrary to whatever conspiracy theories you may believe about ID, the fact of the matter is that there are very good reasons for young people who are just starting out in their careers to keep their heads low as to questioning the established atheistic dogma of Darwinian evolution. At least until they are firmly rooted in their career field.bornagain77
April 22, 2013
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Nick, instead of encouraging Gregory in his delusions, why don't you get back to us on that "massive" amount of evidence you have that huge amounts of information can be infused into the genome by purely natural processes. Ya know, that claim you made that supposedly responded to (your misrepresented version) of Meyer's argument. The claim that materialists have been making since day one, without any concrete evidence to back it up. The claim on which the whole materialist creation myth rests. Please get back to us with some of that "massive" amount of evidence.Eric Anderson
April 22, 2013
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I'm not at all surprised that the Discovery Institute doesn't publish names of young scholars and might even recommend that they lay low for a while. We know for a fact that militant materialists as well as institutions like the NCSE, with Nick's help at the time it seems, have attempted to torpedo careers, with some success. Laying low for a while is definitely sound advice. Unfortunately, Gregory sees conspiracy every time he looks at ID looks and twists things to meet his conspiracy ideation. His assessment and general approach is so unhinged that rational people wouldn't trust him as a credible witness to events even if he were the only one to have witnessed them. Fortunately, there are many others of us who have our own experience. I've personally met and talked to Dembski, Meyer, Wells, Behe and others. Of course none of them are larger than life -- no-one is. But they are careful, thoughtful individuals who raise good questions and sound arguments. Gregory's rant is typical of his mudslinging here. Frankly I'm amazed that the folks in Seattle even had the patience to let him stay through the summer program. If the questions he was asking there were as illogical, irrelevant, and off-topic as the detritus he brings to UD, it is a wonder they didn't buy him a one way plane ticket and send him home after the first day.Eric Anderson
April 22, 2013
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I'm just laughing out loud at #80. It appears that there is indeed an individual in the world who possesses a piqued curiosity about what Gregory has to say. Who would have thought that motive mongering the Discovery Institute could be the basis of a bromance. Love is a beautiful if often an inexplicable thing. Please pardon my having a little fun with this. Gregory has been an ongoing source of entertainment and curiosity for quite some time. I've never actually seen him respond to requests for detailed accounts of his time at the DI summer program. He just makes the same bland generalities about his personal disappointment, along with the same tired invective that's become a hallmark of this odd and angry man, who behaves like a comical inquisitor and is loathe to answer questions or demonstrate any perspicacity with regard to ID. Sometime back, it could scarcely have been two months ago, Gregory announced his retirement from UD. Needless to say, the time went quickly, and now he's back with as much verve as ever. Only now he has an admirer! Shame on you Nick for encouraging him. It is we who will bear the brunt of your indiscretion. :PChance Ratcliff
April 22, 2013
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Nick, People on here have been trying to get that information from him for quite a long time. Sadly he hasn't been able to provide, even proof, that he was actually there. When asked to provide some in an above post he simply replied: "The Discovery Institute doesn’t publish the names of its supposed ‘next generation’ scholars, i.e. its summer program students. It tells students, on the first night, to intentionally hide their identities, to use pseudonyms, to pretend that they are someone else if they want to be taken seriously. Stephen C. Meyer is part of this planned trickery." Like I have to do, go fathom Nick.PeterJ
April 22, 2013
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Natural selection and drift are both blind and mindless processes
Thank you Joe for agreeing with me.
Then you agre with kairosfocus. Good.
They are indeed processes and not the random brute force searching misrepresented by KF with his “needles” analogy.
Umm searching is a process. Natural selection is just differential reproduction due to heritable chance variation. It doesn't do anything, let alone search. At least a search does something. All mutations are said to be errors, mistakes and accidents, ie undirected chance.
Indeed, but it’s the framework, the process that then takes that raw material and uses some, saves some for later (perhaps!) and discards some that’s important, as you rightly point out.
It still doesn't do anything. And it is still undirected chance and necessity, just as kairosfocus said. So what is your issue again?Joe
April 22, 2013
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Gregory, in #71, writes the first interesting, new thing I've seen in a long time on UD:
71 Gregory April 22, 2013 at 11:56 am I went to the Discovery Institute’s Summer Program, where it claims to be teaching the next generation to become ‘IDists’ and was highly disappointed. Meyer was there and couldn’t answer simple questions from the ‘next generation’. Why should young people compromise ‘natural science’ with IDist ideology? ID leaders are far, far weaker and more insignificant (when you meet them in person and speak to them) than you folks will even consider is possible. That is because many people here *want* to be part of an American movement.
Gregory, have you written up your experiences anywhere? What were the other ID speakers like? What questions did students ask of Stephen Meyer? Cheers, NickNickMatzke_UD
April 22, 2013
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Gregory @76 What utter nonesense!PeterJ
April 22, 2013
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Most people believe ‘Intelligence’ in the universe based on faith, not on ‘natural science.’
Actually most people believe in intelligence in the universe based on first-hand observational evidence of its cause, and repeated and uniform experience with its effects. Most people take it as given that the universe and living systems show evidence of design. That being the case, the effects of intelligence have a quality which distinguishes them from the effects which material processes are known to produce -- things like motors, transport systems, power converters, information storage and processing mechanisms, quality control mechanisms, signalling systems, cybernetic control, manufacturing facilities, code translation apparati, materials synthesis pathways, etc. If we found such things in living systems it just might warrant an inference to design, absent the elucidation of the material processes which are supposed to account for such arrangements.Chance Ratcliff
April 22, 2013
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OM "responds" to kairosfocus:
Is it possible you could provide a citation for that claim? That biologists claim that entities like “DNA, RNA and proteins etc, as well as the organised nanomachines” come about by ‘undirected chance and necessity’?
Read "The Blind Watchmaker" and read any biology textbook. Natural selection and drift are both blind and mindless processes. All mutations are said to be errors, mistakes and accidents, ie undirected chance. Even Mayr said that:
The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation, is almost exclusively a chance phenomenon except that the nature of the changes at a given locus is strongly constrained. Chance plays an important role even at the second step, the process of elimination of the less fit individuals. Chance may be particularly important in the haphazard survival during periods of mass extinction.- Mayr, "What Evolution Is"
So what is OM saying- that he doesn't understand what the current paradigm says? Talk about being beyond pathetic, OM lives in that zone. OM, proud to be one of Lizzie's Losers and another great example of not posting in good faith.Joe
April 22, 2013
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Going a necessary step further than DonaldM #75, what 'scientific' proof is there of how an 'intelligent/Intelligent agent/Agent' through 'directed, purposeful' forces of matter and energy over eons of time (thank goodness he's not a YEC!) 'produced' information? Specifically, please address the when, where, how, why and who questions. 'Evolution' is not a 'person,' not an 'agent' according to most scholars, whether theistic or non-thestic. ID Theory is a hand-waving competitor to legitimate science in regard to when, where, how, why and who questions. Asking Nick M. to do the work for ID's decrepit explanatory power is inexcusable. Most people, including theists who have looked carefully and in depth at 'ID theory' as well as agnostics and atheists, reject the claims of ID as a 'natural scientific' proof/inference of 'Intelligence' in the universe. Most people believe 'Intelligence' in the universe based on faith, not on 'natural science.' ID theory is 'distorted'in trying to naturalise faith. Meyer is a proponent of this fuzzy theism parading as an implication of 'natural scientific' proof.Gregory
April 22, 2013
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Matzke writes:
Please let us know when Meyer explains why the origin of new genes with new functions through normal processes of gene duplication, mutation, and natural selection doesn’t contradict his claim that the only way to get new information is through intelligent design. He relies on a universal premise (conservation of information) which is extremely easy to show doesn’t fit the evidence.
I have a better idea, Nick. Maybe you could explain in detail how evolution produced information through the blind, purposeless forces of matter and energy interacting over eons of time through chance and/or necessity. If conservation of information is extremely easy to show doesn't "fit the evidence", maybe you could show where, when and how, and by whom in what peer reviewed journals this has been shown to be the case? For a premise that is supposedly "not scientific", please explain how conservation of information has been put to scientific testing and shown to be false. Who did these experiments, under what conditions, and how might those results be falsified? Or is this just more of your vigorous hand-waving we've grown so accustomed to over the years? (I suspect that to be the case!)DonaldM
April 22, 2013
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